Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-01-31

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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04:11 spinclad erg.  at 22:55:19 i lose my connection to irc.freenode.net, i'm reconnected by 22:55:55 (to calvino) but NickServ doesn't come back till 23:05, so i'm not identified till i repeat my identify /msg later, and #perl6 says:
04:11 spinclad 22:55:57 [freenode] -!- #perl6 Cannot join channel (+j) - throttle exceeded, try again later
04:13 spinclad i'm not sure what correlates with what there, but a number of people have mentioned the like for them.
04:14 spinclad (here, rather than spam #perl6 with this, i'll go mention it on #freenode, see if someone has a clue...)
04:19 Khisanth that sounds like what you would expect when everyone on the network has to reconnect :)
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04:27 Eddward perl6: say 10_000_000_000 / 8_700_000
04:27 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1149.425287356321839​0804597701149425287356322␤»
04:27 p6eval ..elf 29602, rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«1149.42528735632␤»
04:27 Eddward ?
04:27 Eddward perl6: say 10000000000 / 8700000
04:27 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1149.425287356321839​0804597701149425287356322␤»
04:27 p6eval ..elf 29602, rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«1149.42528735632␤»
04:29 Eddward Trying to figure out how much Gates is spending per person he's projected to save over 10 years.
04:30 Eddward print 10_000_000_000 / 8_700_000
04:30 Eddward perl6: print 10_000_000_000 / 8_700_000
04:30 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1149.425287356321839​0804597701149425287356322»
04:30 p6eval ..elf 29602, rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«1149.42528735632»
04:30 Eddward ok, I think I get it.
04:31 Eddward I get -246.827586206897 when I run it on my system.
04:33 Eddward perl6: print say (10_000_000_000 / 8_700_000).perl
04:33 p6eval pugs, rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«100000/87␤1»
04:33 p6eval ..elf 29602: OUTPUT«1149.42528735632␤1»
04:33 Eddward ask
04:33 Eddward err ack
04:33 Eddward I should sleep
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04:34 Eddward perl6: print (10_000_000_000 / 8_700_000).perl
04:34 p6eval elf 29602: OUTPUT«1149.42528735632»
04:34 p6eval ..pugs, rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«100000/87»
04:36 Eddward perl6: print "Goodnight Eddward."
04:36 p6eval elf 29602, pugs, rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Goodnight Eddward.»
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06:18 diakopter in the statically-typed subset of Perl 6 I'm implementing in Sprixel, I'm trying to decide how to reify continuations.
06:28 Baggiokwok joined #perl6
06:32 diakopter I suppose the simplest technique is to provide two statement prefixes: return-cc returns a continuation with the result of the prefixed statement stashed in it (analogous to C#'s yield, most useful for iterators/generators), and call-cc that invokes a closure passing in the current continuation as the sole argument.
06:34 diakopter I guess yield-cc is a more appropriate name for the first one
06:46 colomon joined #perl6
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06:46 diakopter colomon: hi
06:47 colomon hello!
06:49 diakopter .u 8787
06:49 phenny U+8787 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-8787 (螇)
06:49 diakopter .u 8998
06:49 phenny U+8998 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-8998 (覘)
06:49 diakopter .u 19980
06:49 phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results for '19980'.
06:49 diakopter .u 29980
06:49 phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results for '29980'.
06:49 diakopter .u 20001
06:49 phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results for '20001'.
06:49 diakopter .u FFFF
06:49 phenny U+FFFF (No name found)
06:50 diakopter .u FFFFF
06:50 phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results for 'FFFFF'.
06:50 diakopter .u FFFFFF
06:50 phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results for 'FFFFFF'.
06:50 diakopter .u FFFFFFF
06:50 phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results for 'FFFFFFF'.
06:50 phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results for 'FFFFFFF'.
06:50 diakopter jej
06:50 diakopter heh
06:50 diakopter .u FFFFFFFF
06:50 phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results for 'FFFFFFFF'.
06:52 diakopter .u FFFFFFF
06:52 phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results for 'FFFFFFF'.
06:52 diakopter .u 7435
06:52 phenny U+7435 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-7435 (琵)
06:52 diakopter .u 6435
06:52 phenny U+6435 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-6435 (搵)
06:53 diakopter .u E435
06:53 phenny U+E435 (No name found)
06:53 diakopter .u 4435
06:53 phenny U+4435 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-4435 (䐵)
06:53 diakopter .u 3435
06:53 phenny U+3435 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3435 (㐵)
06:53 diakopter .u 2435
06:53 phenny U+2435 (No name found)
06:53 diakopter sigh.
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07:58 sjohnson hi
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08:10 Su-Shee good morning
08:11 sjohnson hello!
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08:41 sjohnson OT question:  anyone C experts here?
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10:30 lisppaste3 tmosx pasted "directory check" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94174
10:32 tmosx Hello everybody: i don't know if this room is for helping or not. i tried to write to #perl room and i couldn't. the following couple lines in the link above are giving me a headache.
10:33 tmosx basically. i'm trying to check if a subdirectory is existing in my current directory or not. if it exists then i will write an image in that subdirectory. ( note: i'm using Image Magick )
10:33 tmosx any help would be appreciated.
10:33 huf you're checking if it exists in /
10:34 huf but mkdir-ing it in your current dir
10:34 huf but then opening it in /. but then passing $file wrong to the Write method
10:34 huf and anyway, this is a channel for perl6, not perl5.
10:34 huf you should be able to join #perl, altho you may need to ident with freenode
10:35 huf oh, and dont use the 2-arg form of open
10:35 tmosx i tried to do that .. but it still gave me an error message telling me that i can't write to the group.
10:36 tmosx oh, i see. thank you very much. i'll probably try to write #perl one more time.
10:36 tmosx thanks huf!
10:37 huf cheers
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11:02 lichtkind Tene: thanks
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12:12 lichtkind when got rakudo birth 2,5 jears ago?
12:16 * ruoso very happy with the latest spec changes...
12:17 ruoso at the same time I don't like the "magical return" from the iterator, the way it is described now is much more sane...
12:17 ruoso since it's just an unthrown exception
12:17 ruoso (which might be thrown if "use fatal" is in effect)
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12:19 ruoso and the simplification of the latest change (r29602) makes a very good simplification...
12:23 moritz_ I'm a bit confused by   @(1,2 Z 3,4)      # ((1,3),(2,4))
12:23 moritz_ does that mean that for 1, 2 Z 3, 4 -> $a { say 1 }; produces only two lines?
12:23 moritz_ or does the iteration over (1, 3), (2, 4) flatten it?
12:24 sjohnson ruoso: do you code in K&R / C99 c, for SMOP?
12:24 colomon sjohnson: what's your C question?  I might be able to help...
12:25 ruoso sjohnson, I think there's nothing exoterical in SMOP code... maybe some of the modules require something special...
12:25 ruoso moritz_, signature binding flattens...
12:26 ruoso (unless the signature says otherwise)
12:28 sjohnson colomon: i'm about to learn C, and i keep seeing all these new standards
12:29 sjohnson i have the K&R C book, but it almost looks as though i should learn the newest standard, and ignore K&R.  it is confusing
12:29 ruoso in the end, I keep with whatever gcc compiles
12:29 sjohnson there's C99 and C1X that i worry about
12:30 colomon sjohnson: ah, interesting question.  as far as I know, K&R is terribly out of date.  But it is considered a classic.
12:30 ruoso since gcc is cross-platform and free software, I usually consider it the standard I follow
12:32 vorner sjohnson: if you learn ANSI C or C99, the C1X will probably just add new nice features
12:32 vorner and you can test C99 right away, but the new one won't be implemented by now yet, I guess (not that I would keep a close look)
12:32 colomon sjohnson: I wouldn't worry much about C99 or C1X, they just tweak details without changing the core of the language at all.
12:32 colomon like going from Perl 5.6 to Perl 5.8 or so.
12:33 colomon not at all like going from Perl 5.6 to Perl 6.  :)
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12:33 vorner but C99 just added some details to ANSI C (like better initializers, macros with arbitrary number of parameters)
12:35 colomon sjohnson: unfortunately, I'm not much good for recommending a book: I learned C about 21 years ago, and don't have the faintest memory of what text I used to do it.  (Actually, I don't remember learning it at all, I just remember coding some C to get the tape punch hardware to run, and then learning C++ the weekend I came back to the dorm.)
12:36 sjohnson vorner: how does one learn C99?  just learn K&R C, and then learn the differences?  or start from C99 somehow
12:36 sjohnson colomon: thanks anyway.  do you prefer C++?
12:36 colomon sjohnson: Yes.  Wildly so, actually.
12:37 sjohnson is the STL a good thing?
12:38 colomon sjohnson: yes.  It's still terribly clumsy compared to, say, Perl arrays and hashes, but it's lightyears beyond programming in C.
12:39 vorner sjohnson: Hm, don't know. I started by learning from a czech textbook of ansi-C, using it for some time, then learning some of the fancy things of C99 on the university from friends
12:39 sjohnson this is an intersting topic of discussion
12:40 vorner colomon: But C++ is inconsistent at places, STL is pain in the ass to debug, and if you learn C and preprocessor well enough, can be easilly got rid of.
12:41 sjohnson ruoso: please to join the convo
12:41 sjohnson :)
12:41 colomon vorner: IMO you're verging on insanity there.
12:42 sjohnson easy now.  i know some people who prefer C over the C++ STL
12:42 sjohnson the author of uTorrent being one of them
12:42 colomon something like std::map packs a fantastic amount of sophisticated tech into a (relatively) easy to learn package.
12:43 vorner colomon: well, I tried it. Generics in C preprocessor aren't really that hard to do. But anyway, C is for low-level or power computing, C++ adds things that do not belong there (like exceptions to language without GC)
12:44 moritz_ if you show me how the compile-time folding and SSE vectorization of the "eigen" library in C, I might even believe that it works
12:44 moritz_ *works in C
12:44 sjohnson moritz_: what is your preference?
12:45 moritz_ sjohnson: the most appropriate tool for the job
12:45 moritz_ depending on the job, that's often enough Perl
12:45 sjohnson moritz_: i've definitely found Perl does 99% of what i need
12:45 sjohnson but i need to do some power-programming for libs for a Clipper compiler
12:45 sjohnson which allows C
12:47 sjohnson .. and curious what your thoughts were
12:48 sjohnson *puppy dog eyes*
12:48 moritz_ if it allows C, use C
12:49 sjohnson but do you like C or C++, for those jobs?
12:49 moritz_ depends on the job
12:49 moritz_ neither "power-programming" nor "for libs for a Clipper compiler" tells me enough to chose a language
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12:50 * vorner knows both of them and avoids them both if there is a reasonable way
12:50 ruoso I started in C for real some months before I started on SMOP
12:50 colomon virtually everything I write that doesn't have to be deliverable to a customer is in Perl.  :)
12:51 ruoso I had some contact around 98... but never really worked with C
12:51 sjohnson well.. i was more asking about your affection for the languages moritz_.  for instance, i LOVE perl, but will use PHP for other tasks, but i dont like PHP... just wondering if you liked / enjoyed either C / C++
12:51 ruoso which is quite understandable, since I worked all the time with information systems (where Perl is far a better choice)
12:52 moritz_ sjohnson: then I'll tell you that I love Perl. If I can't use Perl, I chose the language that's most appropriate :-)
12:52 sjohnson haha
12:52 sjohnson i think i understand
12:52 * ruoso can't find a single reason to use PHP
12:52 sjohnson either Perl... or drudgery is how i look at it
12:52 sjohnson ruoso: i use it for really simple inline HTML generation...
12:52 vorner sjohnson: I like C to play with sometimes, like „how low I can get memory consumption for this task“, or „how fast I can generate first 500 000 000 primes“, but not for real „bigger“ jobs. Most my bigger things are either C++/Qt or bunch of languages put randomly together.
12:52 sjohnson i dont quite know how to do it in Perl yet
12:53 ruoso sjohnson, template toolkit... or even mason...
12:54 sjohnson ok
12:54 sjohnson will do some research
12:54 sjohnson ive used the CGI thing before
12:55 sjohnson but i found it a bit tedious
12:55 ruoso ah... that's at least 10 years old
12:58 ruoso take a look at Catalyst
12:58 ruoso sjohnson, that's how I work with web in Perl today
12:59 sjohnson interesting
12:59 sjohnson this is good news
13:02 * vorner will have to look at catalyst, all his websites are either mostly staticly generated with few CGI scripts either in perl or sh or in mod_perl
13:03 * ruoso thinks merlyn gave the better description for PHP... "PHP: it's like trainning wheels -- without the bike"
13:04 huf describing it is giving it waaaay too much credit
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13:08 sjohnson thanks for the answers everyone
13:39 kraih_sri sjohnson: http://search.cpan.org/dist/​Mojo/lib/Mojolicious/Lite.pm # also quite fun :)
13:43 kraih_sri (i'm the author of catalyst and mojolicious btw.)
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14:02 Su-Shee kraih_sri: "who is totally working on a perl6 version of it" isn't he? ;)
14:03 kraih_sri like totally
14:04 Su-Shee kraih_sri: which reminds me.. web sockets?
14:04 kraih_sri working flawless
14:04 Su-Shee kraih_sri: you are my hero.
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14:05 kraih_sri Su-Shee: http://github.com/kraih/mojo/blob/mast​er/t/mojolicious/websocket_lite_app.t
14:07 Su-Shee I need my webkit running again.
14:07 kraih_sri webkit nightly works quite well, chrome is full of bugs
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14:08 Su-Shee I have to fix some compile issue first I don't remember anymore how I fixed it last time. :/
14:12 Su-Shee ah. now I remember. the perl script.
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14:25 addicted any simple RTP/RSTP client server code pls?
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15:15 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:16 lichtkind goodmorning pm
15:16 lichtkind pmichaud: its save to say that rakudo in its current form is 2,5 years old?
15:17 pmichaud I don't know that it's easy to peg a start date.  The PAST-based version of Rakudo is only 25 months old, though :-)
15:17 pmichaud there were versions of the perl6-on-parrot compiler before that, but they used a different (and much more primitive) compiler toolkit
15:19 colomon2 o/
15:19 lichtkind pmichaud: yes that was my impression, im currently reading your old posts from 3 years ago :)
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15:31 lichtkind pmichaud: what is PAST based i thought NQP based
15:32 pmichaud yes, nqp-based also
15:32 pmichaud past was developed in late 2007, along with nqp
15:32 pmichaud (past is the abstract syntax tree representation used in the compiler toolkit)
15:33 lichtkind ah
15:33 lichtkind pmichaud: thanks
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16:42 * diakopter finally stops deferring the implementation of the operator precedence parser
16:47 colomon diakopter++ # JFDI  :)
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16:53 diakopter :)
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20:18 lichtkind who was the guy who set up the perl 6 wiki?
20:18 diakopter there are several perl 6 wikis
20:19 lichtkind i mean the perlfoundation one
20:19 lichtkind diakopter: oh hi you back, thanks for your time 2 days ago
20:20 lichtkind diakopter: even if still have some question about sprixel left
20:20 diakopter yw
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20:22 pmurias diakopter: sprixel is once again in C#?
20:22 lichtkind Tene: did i disturb you yesterday
20:23 Tene lichtkind: no, not at all.  If you disturbed me, I just wouldn't talk to you.  :)
20:23 lichtkind Tene: thatswhy i ask, no answer would be also answer :)
20:24 diakopter pmurias: yes; I'm porting yet agin
20:24 Tene lichtkind: Please feel free to ask me questions whenever you like.  If I'm otherwise busy, I'll just ignore you.
20:25 lichtkind Tene: excellent
20:27 pmurias diakopter: you are switching between two code bases or rewriting from scratch
20:28 diakopter pmurias: rewriting (hand translating) each time
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21:50 lichtkind who was the guy who set up the tpf perl 6 wiki?
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22:21 Khisanth lichtkind: probably the person listed at revision 2 of http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.​cgi?action=revision_list;page_name=perl_6 :)
22:22 pugs_svn r29603 | pmurias++ | [mildew] -Cssa prints out a graph of the blocks
22:23 lichtkind Khisanth: thanks i think his nick is petdance
22:23 Khisanth lichtkind: he goes by alester now
22:23 Khisanth usually
22:24 Khisanth alester is register, petdance is not
22:29 lichtkind Khisanth: what alester?
22:29 Khisanth that is the nick he uses
22:29 Khisanth he hasn't used petdance for a while
22:30 lichtkind ah
22:30 lichtkind i wrote to his perlbuzz adress anyway :)
22:30 Khisanth on irc.perl.org he is just Andy
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