| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:05 |
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| 00:06 |
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| 00:07 |
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| 00:19 |
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| 00:22 |
|
diakopter |
hm |
| 00:24 |
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| 00:33 |
|
colomon |
pmichaud: Method 'postcircumfix:<[ ]>' not found for invocant of class 'GatherIterator' |
| 00:34 |
|
colomon |
Obviously Seq has [ ], but how can I make that work from an Iterator? |
| 00:34 |
|
colomon |
(automatically, I mean.) |
| 00:35 |
|
TimToady |
postcircumfix:<[ ]> is one of those methods with a loopback out in Any or Cool or some such that can promote an iterator to a sequence |
| 00:39 |
|
colomon |
TimToady: I like the sound of that... |
| 00:39 |
|
colomon |
afk... |
| 00:40 |
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| 00:47 |
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| 00:48 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29623 | lwall++ | [CORE.setting] track recent name changes |
| 00:59 |
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| 00:59 |
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| 01:06 |
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| 01:09 |
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| 01:09 |
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pugs_svn |
r29624 | lwall++ | [S07] @@ squashing |
| 01:10 |
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| 01:13 |
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| 01:13 |
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| 01:22 |
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| 01:26 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29625 | lwall++ | [S29] more @@ and iterator patchups |
| 01:29 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29626 | lwall++ | [S13] *@@ ---> **@ |
| 01:33 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29627 | lwall++ | [S32/Containers] last @@ removal not counting S09 |
| 01:36 |
|
diakopter |
TimToady: typo in r29625 |
| 01:36 |
|
diakopter |
it's |
| 01:36 |
|
diakopter |
oh; it was in the original too |
| 01:37 |
|
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pjcj joined #perl6 |
| 01:39 |
|
diakopter |
it's the shrinking of the trigils |
| 01:40 |
|
diakopter |
@ to * |
| 01:40 |
|
|
agentzh joined #perl6 |
| 01:41 |
|
diakopter |
or, "when triclops winks" |
| 01:42 |
|
wolverian |
TimToady: are the 2008 and 2009 state of the onions online somewhere? |
| 01:46 |
|
TimToady |
no, not really. they were both more or less live demos, so not really suitable |
| 01:51 |
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| 01:51 |
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| 01:52 |
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| 02:01 |
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| 02:03 |
|
sidewinder128 |
Hello, How stable is perl6/Rakudo? or I keep doing with perl 5? |
| 02:06 |
|
diakopter |
sidewinder128: keep on with perl5 regardless, but try out perl6/Rakudo in a few months |
| 02:07 |
|
sidewinder128 |
alright thanks |
| 02:07 |
|
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| 02:08 |
|
sjohnson |
hi guys |
| 02:10 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29628 | diakopter++ | [S29] syntaxos (grammaros?) (spellos?) (typos?) |
| 02:11 |
|
diakopter |
TimToady: do you expect to give a SotO this year? |
| 02:13 |
|
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| 02:13 |
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| 02:16 |
|
* sjohnson |
would like to attend |
| 02:19 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29629 | lwall++ | [S09] @@, what's that? Never heard of it... |
| 02:20 |
|
sjohnson |
diakopter: how's it going? |
| 02:22 |
|
diakopter |
sjohnson: oh, good |
| 02:22 |
|
diakopter |
how're you |
| 02:22 |
|
sjohnson |
great. i wrote a CODE128 barcode implementation from scratch in Clipper, and it uses intelligent switching technology between B and C modes. Perl saved me about 6 hours on the project |
| 02:23 |
|
sjohnson |
i'm just a bit excited, as i used to think barcodes were rocket science, prior to reading a spec on how certain standards of them are laid out |
| 02:23 |
|
* diakopter |
had to look up what Clipper is |
| 02:23 |
|
sjohnson |
old DOS programming language |
| 02:23 |
|
sjohnson |
diakopter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C[…]mming_language%29 |
| 02:24 |
|
sjohnson |
but there is a modern open source compiler that compiles it for multi-platform, called Harbour Project... even supports Perl regex using pcre! |
| 02:24 |
|
sjohnson |
only reason im using Clipper is because at work we have an old piece of in-house software that does POS, and needs to run on Win64 for a change |
| 02:25 |
|
TimToady |
maybe the SOTO this year will just be me standing up, running 'perl6 tree', which prints a Christmas tree, whereupon I sit back down, and let perl6 do the rest of the speech. |
| 02:25 |
|
sjohnson |
"This is the 7th annual State of the Perl Onion speech, wherein I tell you how Perl is doing. Perl is doing fine, thank you. Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to spend the rest of the time telling jokes." |
| 02:26 |
|
sjohnson |
^^^ made me lul |
| 02:27 |
|
* diakopter |
wanders off to find a sbux |
| 02:29 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29630 | lwall++ | [S07] typos from markjreed++ |
| 02:31 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29631 | lwall++ | [STD] recognize ** as a slice marker on variadic parameters |
| 02:33 |
|
sjohnson |
... PERL!!! *yells loudly at work* |
| 02:34 |
|
sjohnson |
nothing gets me more in a Perl programming mood than writing it while listening to the Ghostbusters theme |
| 02:39 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29632 | lwall++ | [STD] oh yeah, also delete that @@ sigil we used to have once upon a time. |
| 02:39 |
|
colomon |
"I ain't afraid of no bugs!" |
| 02:39 |
|
sjohnson |
colomon: that's the Perl 6 attitude |
| 02:39 |
|
sjohnson |
:) |
| 02:39 |
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| 02:39 |
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| 02:50 |
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| 03:05 |
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| 03:08 |
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| 03:13 |
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| 03:13 |
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| 03:20 |
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| 03:34 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29633 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Fudge for ng1. |
| 03:54 |
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| 04:10 |
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| 04:11 |
|
quester |
?eval my @b[1]=2;@b.perl.say; |
| 04:16 |
|
diakopter |
pugs: my @b[1]=2; @b.perl.say; |
| 04:16 |
|
p6eval |
pugs: OUTPUT«[undef, 2]» |
| 04:26 |
|
quester |
rakudo: my @b[1]=2;@b.perl.say; |
| 04:26 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Confused at line 10, near "[1]=2;@b.p"in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)» |
| 04:54 |
|
quester |
rakudo: my @b; @b[1]=2; @b.perl.say; |
| 04:54 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«[undef, 2]» |
| 04:57 |
|
diakopter |
ng: my @b; @b[1]=2; @b.perl.say; |
| 04:57 |
|
p6eval |
ng 58d896: OUTPUT«Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'Proxy'current instr.: 'perl6;Array;_block3823' pc 244539 (src/gen/core.pir:20540)» |
| 04:57 |
|
diakopter |
haven't seen that error b4 |
| 04:58 |
|
diakopter |
ng: my @b; @b[0]=2; @b.perl.say; |
| 04:58 |
|
p6eval |
ng 58d896: OUTPUT«[2]» |
| 04:58 |
|
diakopter |
ng: my @b; @b[1] = 3; @b[0]=2; @b.perl.say; |
| 04:58 |
|
p6eval |
ng 58d896: OUTPUT«[2, 3]» |
| 04:58 |
|
quester |
Yes... that's not very pretty at all. |
| 04:58 |
|
diakopter |
ng: my @b; @b[1] = 3; @b[0]=Mu; @b.perl.say; |
| 04:58 |
|
p6eval |
ng 58d896: OUTPUT«[Mu, 3]» |
| 04:59 |
|
diakopter |
Tene: want something to fix? |
| 05:00 |
|
Tene |
diakopter: maybe. I'd like to hear it, at least. |
| 05:00 |
|
Tene |
The next few days are lookin pretty horrible for me, though. |
| 05:02 |
|
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| 05:05 |
|
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| 05:08 |
|
diakopter |
Tene: I just meant the prior error (last 10 lines) |
| 05:17 |
|
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| 05:17 |
|
diakopter__ |
test |
| 05:17 |
|
diakopter__ |
ok good |
| 05:19 |
|
Tene |
diakopter: the proxy thing? |
| 05:25 |
|
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| 05:25 |
|
fcahoon |
hello, anyone home? |
| 05:28 |
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| 05:46 |
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| 05:46 |
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| 06:08 |
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| 06:08 |
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| 06:12 |
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| 06:12 |
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| 06:20 |
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| 06:25 |
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| 06:28 |
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| 06:31 |
|
diakopter |
TimToady: have you tried STD against v3 of NYTProf? http://blog.timbunce.org/2009/[…]3-worth-the-wait/ it says they rewrote the subroutine caller tracking entirely, fixing [all of?] the places it was guessing on the call origin... |
| 06:32 |
|
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| 06:35 |
|
diakopter |
also, /me impressed by http://yapgh.blogspot.com/2010[…]finally-gets.html |
| 06:48 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29634 | lwall++ | [t/spec] fix all occurrences of @@ one way or another |
| 07:10 |
|
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| 07:18 |
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| 07:18 |
|
Su-Shee |
good morning |
| 07:23 |
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| 07:23 |
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| 07:26 |
|
colomon |
o/ |
| 07:27 |
|
colomon |
pmichaud, TimToady: what should be the type returned from "reverse" now? |
| 07:27 |
|
colomon |
It's spec'd and tested as a List. |
| 07:29 |
|
colomon |
In Rakudo master and ng/ng1 it returns an Array. And of course, in ng1, Arrays are no longer Lists. |
| 07:30 |
|
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| 07:30 |
|
colomon |
An equally obvious and probably smarter implementation would return an Iterator. |
| 07:32 |
|
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| 07:32 |
|
TimToady |
an unmarked return returns a Parcel, and that's more or less what List means |
| 07:34 |
|
TimToady |
diakopter: no I haven't tried v3 |
| 07:34 |
|
colomon |
As comparison, map is spec'd as returning a List of Parcel -- right now in ng1 it returns an Iterator. |
| 07:34 |
|
TimToady |
is really a parcel of parcels |
| 07:35 |
|
TimToady |
the inner parcels are simply the return values of the inner block |
| 07:35 |
|
TimToady |
so it falls out naturally |
| 07:39 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29635 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Change the type we desire to get back from "reverse" to Iterable. May be worth tightening to Parcel at some point. |
| 07:39 |
|
colomon |
Hope that's an acceptable approximation. |
| 07:40 |
|
TimToady |
almost nothing user visible should be returning an iterator |
| 07:41 |
|
TimToady |
there's nothing says we have to declare the return type at all :) |
| 07:43 |
|
colomon |
True! |
| 07:43 |
|
colomon |
boy seems solidly asleep again, so back to bed for me. |
| 07:46 |
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| 07:55 |
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| 08:12 |
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| 08:37 |
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| 08:43 |
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| 08:46 |
|
moritz_ |
good morning |
| 09:02 |
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| 09:04 |
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| 09:08 |
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| 09:12 |
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| 09:15 |
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| 09:17 |
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| 09:18 |
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| 09:20 |
|
frettled |
Oh, boy, yes, good morning. |
| 09:21 |
|
* frettled |
had an excellent walk to work through the snow drift. -4-5°C and a slight breeze, took me 30 minutes instead of the usual 23-24. |
| 09:31 |
|
payload |
does $obj ~~ *.notdef and $obj.notdef not return under same conditions the same True or False? |
| 09:32 |
|
payload |
i've just read $obj ~~ *.notdef in the release notes |
| 09:46 |
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| 09:51 |
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| 09:55 |
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| 10:09 |
|
moritz_ |
they are identical |
| 10:09 |
|
moritz_ |
but for example in a 'when' the matching is always done as smartmatching |
| 10:09 |
|
moritz_ |
so you need some kind of syntactic sugar |
| 10:26 |
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| 10:37 |
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| 10:45 |
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Exodist joined #perl6 |
| 11:04 |
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masak joined #perl6 |
| 11:05 |
|
masak |
g'day, #perl6. |
| 11:06 |
|
mathw |
hi masak |
| 11:06 |
|
jnthn |
oh hai, masak |
| 11:06 |
|
* masak |
slept like a baby |
| 11:07 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 11:07 |
|
jnthn |
Sleep can be a Good Thing. |
| 11:07 |
|
mathw |
I like sleep |
| 11:07 |
|
masak |
me too. I do it regularly. |
| 11:07 |
|
masak |
practically every night. |
| 11:08 |
|
frettled |
:) |
| 11:08 |
|
jnthn |
I'm always a bit skeptical about sleep before I do it, but when I have to stop I never want to. |
| 11:08 |
|
masak |
yeah. know the feeling. |
| 11:09 |
|
mathw |
I woke up remarkably easily this morning |
| 11:09 |
|
mathw |
I even had time for breakfast before I left the house |
| 11:09 |
|
mathw |
And a few minutes to play with the cat before leaving him alone all day |
| 11:12 |
|
|
quester_ left #perl6 |
| 11:14 |
|
masak |
I'd like to play a bit with building the whole Perl 6 application cheese, something that's possible now with a merged proto. |
| 11:15 |
|
masak |
ideally, we'd be able to collect data on which apps build under master, and which build under ng. |
| 11:15 |
|
* masak |
backlogs over *.notdef |
| 11:15 |
|
masak |
I must confess that the purpose of this method still eludes me. |
| 11:16 |
|
masak |
if I'm to do $obj ~~ *.notdef, why don't I just do $obj !~~ *.defined ? |
| 11:16 |
|
masak |
this is the only method in CORE which returns the boolean opposite of the real thing :) |
| 11:20 |
|
jnthn |
masak: Maybe for when or where |
| 11:20 |
|
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orafu joined #perl6 |
| 11:20 |
|
masak |
ah, yes. |
| 11:20 |
|
jnthn |
when .notdef {...} |
| 11:20 |
|
masak |
to compensate for the lack of whenn't :) |
| 11:20 |
|
jnthn |
:-P |
| 11:21 |
|
jnthn |
There Will Be Modules. |
| 11:21 |
|
masak |
too true. :) |
| 11:21 |
|
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| 11:34 |
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| 11:36 |
|
jnthn |
OK, so I guess main dev is going on now in ng1? |
| 11:37 |
|
masak |
yes, I think so. |
| 11:38 |
|
* jnthn |
spectests. |
| 11:43 |
|
jnthn |
Hmm, phew, a lot of the OO stuffs hasn't broken. |
| 11:43 |
|
jnthn |
(since ng) |
| 11:44 |
|
mathw |
:) |
| 11:44 |
|
mathw |
good to hear |
| 11:44 |
|
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| 11:48 |
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| 11:49 |
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| 11:54 |
|
masak |
diakopter: using NYTProf on STD.pm sounds like a thrilling prospect. |
| 12:12 |
|
Tene |
jnthn: pmichaud says ng1 becomes master in the next few days. |
| 12:21 |
|
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Baggiokwok joined #perl6 |
| 12:29 |
|
jnthn |
Tene: Aye, I noticed that. |
| 12:30 |
|
jnthn |
Tene: Thus why I'm trying to find some time to give it a bit of TLC. :-) |
| 12:30 |
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| 12:32 |
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| 12:37 |
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| 12:38 |
|
colomon |
o/ |
| 12:39 |
|
moritz_ |
do hashes work in ng or ng1? |
| 12:39 |
|
jnthn |
moritz_: I fear not. |
| 12:40 |
|
jnthn |
That should...really...be fixed. |
| 12:41 |
|
masak |
yes. |
| 12:42 |
|
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| 12:42 |
|
masak |
the more I think about it, the more I question whether a mass-build of everything will actually yield useful information at this point. |
| 12:42 |
|
masak |
maybe I'd do better focusing on one single application and seeing what problems ng1 runs into trying to compile it. |
| 12:42 |
|
colomon |
masak: I don't think it will. This week. Hopefully next week it will be really useful. |
| 12:42 |
|
masak |
right. |
| 12:43 |
|
masak |
so there's still sense in building the infrastructure for such a thing. |
| 12:45 |
|
colomon |
masak: I don't know that there's a point to building the infrastructure -- in ng/ng1. But having the infrastructure more or less ready to go for the magic point when they are somewhat more useful would be really good. (ie, having it working in pre-ng master seems like a good idea to me.) |
| 12:46 |
|
masak |
right. |
| 12:54 |
|
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| 13:02 |
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| 13:05 |
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| 13:06 |
|
pmichaud |
good morning, #perl6 |
| 13:06 |
|
colomon |
\o |
| 13:06 |
|
jnthn |
morning, pmichaud |
| 13:06 |
|
masak |
morn', pm |
| 13:06 |
|
pmichaud |
once arrays are working again hashes should be easy to restore |
| 13:07 |
|
masak |
\o/ |
| 13:07 |
|
* pmichaud |
reads backscroll |
| 13:07 |
|
pmichaud |
and I hope to do arrays this morning |
| 13:07 |
|
moritz_ |
\o/ |
| 13:08 |
|
pmichaud |
00:35 <TimToady> postcircumfix:<[ ]> is one of those methods with a loopback out in Any or Cool or some such that can promote an iterator to a sequence |
| 13:08 |
|
pmichaud |
....so, what happens with something like 14.[5] ? |
| 13:08 |
|
colomon |
yeah, I heard that, thought about it a bit, and then wrote postcircumfix:<[ ]> for Iterator. :) |
| 13:09 |
|
pmichaud |
it should delegate to a Seq |
| 13:09 |
|
colomon |
It does, I think. |
| 13:09 |
|
colomon |
self.Seq[$a]; |
| 13:09 |
|
masak |
the nice thing about rewrites is that things are so much easier to implement the fourth or fifth time. in a way, writing a big application comes down to learning to write that application by doing it over and over again, better each time. |
| 13:10 |
|
colomon |
masak: practice! |
| 13:11 |
|
arnsholt |
The essence of Plan to Throw One Away, one supposes =) |
| 13:11 |
|
masak |
any medium-to-large-scale app is best written by someone who has written dozens of them already. that's a bleak perspective, made less bleak if one counts internal rewrites and refactorings. :) |
| 13:13 |
|
colomon |
pmichaud: it's funny, I feel like I still don't quite understand why Seq exists, but I'm really starting to enjoy coding with it. :) |
| 13:14 |
|
masak |
I'm not sure I grok Seq either. |
| 13:15 |
|
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| 13:16 |
|
pmichaud |
Seq exists primarily as the immutable form of an Array |
| 13:16 |
|
colomon |
oh, so it's like old List only cooler! |
| 13:16 |
|
pmichaud |
i.e., a list of elements that also "does Positional" |
| 13:16 |
|
colomon |
no wonder it's nice. |
| 13:16 |
|
pmichaud |
yes, it's analogous to old List |
| 13:17 |
|
masak |
aaah. |
| 13:17 |
|
pmichaud |
the problem with old List that started this whole iterator mess a long time ago is that I realized that we really didn't want for 1..10000 to be storing the 10000 elements, but since list(1..1000) was producing something that was like an Array, we got them no matter what. |
| 13:18 |
|
pmichaud |
i.e., the old List (and now Seq) had the side-effect of forcing the creation and storage of all of the lazy elements |
| 13:18 |
|
pmichaud |
even when what you wanted to do was just to iterate them |
| 13:21 |
|
colomon |
oh hey, my changes overnight fixed join.t, too. |
| 13:22 |
|
pmichaud |
yes, I suspect we'll see quite a bit of that... a small fix here or there re-enables lots of tests |
| 13:23 |
|
colomon |
I should have made more notes about what was stopping each test file I had to turn off. But it's pretty easy to check them manually, thanks to your simple ## trick. |
| 13:24 |
|
pmichaud |
afk, kid to school |
| 13:24 |
|
takadonet |
morning all |
| 13:25 |
|
colomon |
o/ |
| 13:29 |
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| 13:35 |
|
k23z__ |
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new[…]th-USB-drive.html |
| 13:36 |
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| 13:38 |
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| 13:53 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29636 | azawawi++ | [std_hilite] Upgrade to JQuery 1.4.1 |
| 13:53 |
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| 13:54 |
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| 14:01 |
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lichtkind |
cotto: still want nov account |
| 14:06 |
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| 15:02 |
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| 15:09 |
|
* colomon |
hopes ng1 progress is bubbling away out of sight, while he trudges through $work and housework... |
| 15:09 |
|
takadonet |
hehe |
| 15:16 |
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| 15:28 |
|
pmurias |
hi |
| 15:28 |
|
masak |
o/ |
| 15:31 |
|
takadonet |
hey pmurias |
| 15:33 |
|
* masak |
peruses PCRE source code |
| 15:33 |
|
masak |
fascinating. |
| 15:36 |
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Psyche^ joined #perl6 |
| 15:43 |
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nihiliad joined #perl6 |
| 15:51 |
|
masak |
rakudo: "foo" ~~ / ^* /; say 'alive' |
| 15:51 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: ( no output ) |
| 15:51 |
|
moritz_ |
it's an infinite looop |
| 15:51 |
|
masak |
aye. |
| 15:51 |
|
moritz_ |
erm, I meant looooooo |
| 15:51 |
|
masak |
one that's statically catchable. |
| 15:52 |
|
masak |
(hm, is that 'staticly'? English is hard.) |
| 15:53 |
|
masak |
Google says 'statically'. :) |
| 15:53 |
|
frettled |
Statistically correct. |
| 15:54 |
|
masak |
I will eventually add a 'detect empty match in greedy quantifier' function to GGE, and then probably backport it to PGE. |
| 15:54 |
|
* colomon |
just found hardcopies of Damian Conway's articles on Perl 6 from circa 2003 while cleaning the office... |
| 15:54 |
|
frettled |
Quick, wrap them in acrylic and suck the air out! |
| 15:55 |
|
|
justatheory joined #perl6 |
| 15:55 |
|
colomon |
If someone wants them, I can save them from the recycle bin. But I assume they're all on-line somewhere... |
| 15:58 |
|
ascent_ |
LOL: http://developers.facebook.com[…]?blog=1&story=358 |
| 16:00 |
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| 16:01 |
|
masak |
ascent_: slightly OT, don't you think? in a way, Perl 6 is *two* degrees removed from PHP. we make jokes about the Perl 5 people, who make jokes about the PHP people. :) |
| 16:01 |
|
masak |
for the record, some of my best friends use Perl 5. |
| 16:02 |
|
pmichaud |
for the record, I use PHP. |
| 16:02 |
|
pmichaud |
:-) |
| 16:02 |
|
masak |
hm. me too, occasionally. |
| 16:02 |
|
masak |
it's quite good for the Web. |
| 16:03 |
|
masak |
but it also deserves most of the mockery it gets from knowledgeable people. |
| 16:03 |
|
PerlJam |
Besides, hiphop is an implementation optimization and says nothing about the language. (and we don't have many optimizations ourselves ;-) |
| 16:03 |
|
szbalint |
heh, facebook should have written a profiler instead of an automatic translator tool |
| 16:03 |
|
masak |
due to the principle of 'worse is better', the weaknesses of PHP as a language don't much matter. |
| 16:03 |
|
masak |
not in the short term, at least. |
| 16:04 |
|
PerlJam |
szbalint++ indeed. |
| 16:05 |
|
masak |
HipHop sounds a bit like what Andrew Shitov made for Perl 6: a compiler that outputs C++. |
| 16:05 |
|
ascent_ |
I pasted this just for little fun... It's funny when companies like Facebook write something like this. Going deeper and deeper in something which is not suitable for them. |
| 16:05 |
|
pmichaud |
"not suitable"? Odd. |
| 16:05 |
|
masak |
oh, it might well be suitable for them. |
| 16:06 |
|
PerlJam |
ascent_: yes, we were talking about this on #startups earlier. Twitter's move from Ruby to Scala was another example. |
| 16:07 |
|
ascent_ |
PerlJam: I didn't know about that chan, thanks. :) |
| 16:07 |
|
pmichaud |
afk, errands |
| 16:07 |
|
masak |
an experienced programmer can use even a crappy language to produce impressive software. |
| 16:07 |
|
masak |
the cost of maintenance is higher, sure. but it's possible. |
| 16:08 |
|
PerlJam |
masak: see pmwiki.org :-) |
| 16:08 |
|
ascent_ |
masak: experienced programmer choose proper tools for proper tasks. |
| 16:08 |
|
masak |
PerlJam: that was the example I had in mind. :) |
| 16:08 |
|
pmichaud |
ascent_: and how do you know that php is improper for this particular task? |
| 16:08 |
|
PerlJam |
ascent_: experienced programmer choose "proper" too |
| 16:08 |
|
masak |
ascent_: yes, and PHP, like it or not, is a good fit for the Web. |
| 16:08 |
|
frettled |
Experienced programmers may not have a choice in tools or tasks. |
| 16:09 |
|
frettled |
*mumblegrumble* |
| 16:09 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: hopefully they have a way out of that situation though |
| 16:09 |
|
pmichaud |
(way out) -- often, what happens is they build their way out of not having a choice. See also Perl 1. :-) |
| 16:09 |
|
PerlJam |
heh |
| 16:09 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: That depends on the job market where you live. The US job market has not been very friendly lately, and in many other countries it feels safer to just stick around where you know you get paid. |
| 16:10 |
|
pmichaud |
okay, really afk this time |
| 16:10 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: or ... you start a small company in your spare time and nuture it until it can support your needs. |
| 16:10 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: then *you* choose |
| 16:10 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: if you have spare time, of course :D |
| 16:10 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: you make spare time. It's another choice |
| 16:10 |
|
frettled |
and if you have no no-compete clauses in your contract |
| 16:11 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: again, another choice. |
| 16:11 |
|
colomon |
heh. my old employers forgot to make me sign the no-compete clause. :) |
| 16:11 |
|
frettled |
That _some_ experienced programmers have these options does _not_ mean that _every_ experienced programmer, or even experienced programmers in general, have them. |
| 16:11 |
|
Tene |
Or you live in an area where no-compete clauses are legally unenforcable. |
| 16:12 |
|
Tene |
California, iirc. |
| 16:12 |
|
Tene |
and probably others. |
| 16:12 |
|
frettled |
Norway :) |
| 16:12 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: no, every person has these choices. Then it's just a question of timing. You chose to sign a no-compete, so you chose to limit your options. But you still have options. |
| 16:12 |
|
frettled |
Or, as we like to say, «Scandinavian Libertopia» |
| 16:13 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: I'm sorry, that's just a hopeless position to take. Yes, technically, _anyone_ can quit their job and do things on their then-appearing spare time. But it's not a realistic choice, because it doesn't guarantee bread on the table, if you catch my drift. |
| 16:14 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: Remember: the Dream is only achievable for a select low percentage of the Dreamers. |
| 16:14 |
|
ascent_ |
masak,pmichaud: IMO PHP is maybe good for small projects, but not for big. That is my opinion and I don't want to argue - you have something better to do, so do I (althrough not so exciting). ;) |
| 16:14 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: suddenly you sound religious (in a bad way) |
| 16:14 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: I'm referring to the American Dream |
| 16:15 |
|
frettled |
Which _is_ religion to quite a few Americans. |
| 16:15 |
|
masak |
ascent_: I don't want to argue either. just pointing out that your opinion doesn't wish away PmWiki or MediaWiki, or other large projects which exist and actually use PHP. |
| 16:15 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: and I don't believe in the Dream, but you sounded like you did. |
| 16:15 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: I'm sorry for misunderstanding your intentions. |
| 16:15 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: you choose to believe what you want. Your beliefs limit your future choices. :-) |
| 16:16 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: Yes, but if everyone makes the same choice, only a few of them get to put bread on their table. |
| 16:16 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: It's job market economics 101 |
| 16:17 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: What you suggest is possible for «everyone» if and only if there are enough jobs and finances available for these people. |
| 16:17 |
|
frettled |
What you're describing is a nice utopia, and one that I'd be happy to see as a reality, but it's not. Sorry. |
| 16:19 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: So ... I find it odd that we went from me suggesting that you start a small business in your spare time that could eventually (*eventually*) make enough that you would no longer be economically constrained to ... utopia. |
| 16:20 |
|
Tene |
Compared to many situations, that's pretty close. ;) |
| 16:21 |
|
pmurias |
* Wojtek Gołaszewski |
| 16:21 |
|
pmurias |
* Daniel Majchrowski |
| 16:21 |
|
pmurias |
* Jarek Nadziak |
| 16:21 |
|
pmurias |
* Łukasz “Zed” Zawada |
| 16:21 |
|
pmurias |
* Konrad Łęski |
| 16:21 |
|
pmurias |
* Mariusz Nowak |
| 16:21 |
|
pmurias |
* Krzysztof Kozak |
| 16:22 |
|
pmurias |
* Łukasz “Żółwiao” Dźbik |
| 16:22 |
|
pmurias |
* Michał Szwarc |
| 16:22 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: people have choices. I know the world isn't perfect, but it *is* what you make of it. If you sacrifice certain "freedoms" to put bread on the table, that was your choice. That doesn't mean it was the *only* choice. |
| 16:22 |
|
pmurias |
* Krzysiek Parafińczuk |
| 16:22 |
|
pmurias |
* Andrzej Borys † |
| 16:22 |
|
pmurias |
* Piotr Kobylański |
| 16:22 |
|
pmurias |
* Bartosz Bibrowicz |
| 16:22 |
|
pmurias |
* Michał Dybowski |
| 16:22 |
|
|
was kicked by moritz_: pastespam |
| 16:22 |
|
masak |
moritz_++ |
| 16:22 |
|
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| 16:22 |
|
pmurias |
moritz_: sorry |
| 16:22 |
|
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| 16:22 |
|
moritz_ |
pmurias: no problem |
| 16:25 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: No, the utopia is that _everyone_ can do this. Everyone can attempt to do so, but if everyone does, then most of them will fail. |
| 16:26 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: It's exactly like the Dream: everyone can try to become the President of the United States of America, and everyone has a chance, but not everyone can be; 99.9999996% will fail. |
| 16:28 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: that decimal is suspicious. Did you do a quick calculation based on an estimate of the US population? :) |
| 16:28 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: 300 million people, yes |
| 16:29 |
|
PerlJam |
heh, you're such a geek :) |
| 16:29 |
|
frettled |
Thank you :) |
| 16:29 |
|
PerlJam |
though your math is faulty I think. How many US presidents are there? |
| 16:29 |
|
frettled |
One at any given time. |
| 16:30 |
|
PerlJam |
no, there's only one in office at any given time, but there are several not in office |
| 16:30 |
|
frettled |
The example is flawed in another respect: if you've been elected President twice, you cannot stand for election again, so it's impossible to achieve it again. |
| 16:31 |
|
frettled |
PerlJam: I wrote «become», not «be», and «become» could -- if you chose to interpret benevolently instead of mischievously -- mean «be elected» |
| 16:31 |
|
frettled |
You're a geek to :) |
| 16:31 |
|
frettled |
Anyhow, I think I've spammed way too much about this, I'll shut up now. |
| 16:32 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: but several presidents have been elected! :) |
| 16:32 |
|
masak |
frettled: unless you're Roosevelt. http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39847 |
| 16:32 |
|
PerlJam |
frettled: #perl inspires pedantry for some reason. |
| 16:34 |
|
colomon |
reading about the Hiphop PHP thing makes me think of the Perl 6 to C++ compiler... |
| 16:35 |
|
masak |
that's what I said! :) |
| 16:35 |
|
masak |
<masak> HipHop sounds a bit like what Andrew Shitov made for Perl 6: a compiler that outputs C++. |
| 16:36 |
|
masak |
I increasingly feel like a Perl 6 historian... reading http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/exe/E02.html , at the bottom I find this: |
| 16:36 |
|
masak |
'98% backwards compatibility even without an automatic p52p6 translator...pretty slick!' |
| 16:37 |
|
masak |
and then '[Update: Well, it's not quite that backward compatible anymore.]' |
| 16:37 |
|
colomon |
That might have been one of the papers (in 2003 form) I just stuck in the recycle bin. |
| 16:37 |
|
masak |
so basically, Perl 6 tried to be backwards compatible from the start, and that goal was dropped along the way. |
| 16:38 |
|
masak |
one hears very little about a p52p6 translator nowadays, too. |
| 16:38 |
|
PerlJam |
masak: keep that in mind for the future when Perl 6 is in common use. We could use a good history book :) |
| 16:38 |
|
masak |
I think this would make a good blog post. |
| 16:38 |
|
masak |
that might help me keep it in mind. :) |
| 16:38 |
|
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| 16:39 |
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hercynium joined #perl6 |
| 16:40 |
|
colomon |
looking at E02 there... woah, print statements in perl 6. :) |
| 16:41 |
|
masak |
we still have those, you know. :) |
| 16:41 |
|
jnthn |
say what? |
| 16:41 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 16:41 |
|
masak |
say .WHAT |
| 16:41 |
|
colomon |
I know print still works, but I can't remember the last time I actually used it.... :) |
| 16:41 |
|
masak |
it happens. :) |
| 16:43 |
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| 16:45 |
|
colomon |
I feel like someone should rewrite the example in modern Perl 6.... |
| 16:45 |
|
jnthn |
std: sub foo($a, $a) { } |
| 16:45 |
|
p6eval |
std 29636: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties: Useless redeclaration of variable $a (from line 1) at /tmp/FiqIa9t4fO line 1:------> sub foo($a, ⏏$a) { }ok 00:01 108m» |
| 16:45 |
|
masak |
one thing I'll use macros for is to re-create Arc's print-to-string functionality. |
| 16:46 |
|
masak |
that'll create an excellent use for print :) |
| 16:46 |
|
PerlJam |
E05 needs to be redone in moderm Perl 6 |
| 16:46 |
|
masak |
anyone who re-writes an apocalypse or exigesis to modern Perl 6 wins an Internet. |
| 16:47 |
|
diakopter |
masak: the new NYTprof, I mean... TimToady used prior versions on it (parsing itself).. and I did also twice, but results were not satisfying because of bugs in nytprof |
| 16:47 |
|
jnthn |
masak: I'd be interested, but I already won one for doing lolsql. |
| 16:47 |
|
masak |
diakopter: ah, I see. |
| 16:47 |
|
jnthn |
masak: What'd I do with two internets?! |
| 16:48 |
|
masak |
jnthn: yeah, not sure you can win more than one :) |
| 16:48 |
|
PerlJam |
Though we need an implementation that can do this: my $text is from($*ARGS); # Bind scalar to input stream |
| 16:48 |
|
|
jaldhar joined #perl6 |
| 16:50 |
|
colomon |
PerlJam: my $text is $*ARGS.map({.slurp}).join |
| 16:50 |
|
PerlJam |
colomon: uh ... no. |
| 16:51 |
|
PerlJam |
std: my $text is $*ARGS.map({.slurp}).join |
| 16:51 |
|
p6eval |
std 29636: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0mConfused at /tmp/brvV2kLDKw line 1:------> my $text is ⏏$*ARGS.map({.slurp}).join expecting nameFAILED 00:01 107m» |
| 16:51 |
|
jnthn |
You'd need to write a trait_mod to make that happen. |
| 16:51 |
|
PerlJam |
"Confused" is a really good error :) |
| 16:51 |
|
colomon |
sorry, my $text = $*ARGS.map({.slurp}).join |
| 16:52 |
|
PerlJam |
colomon: sure ... I was more interested in the "bind" part though. |
| 16:52 |
|
PerlJam |
(sure, I didn't say that; mea culpa) |
| 16:52 |
|
colomon |
What do you thinking such binding would do for you? |
| 16:52 |
|
colomon |
(In this case.) |
| 16:53 |
|
PerlJam |
magic! :) |
| 16:53 |
|
PerlJam |
colomon: modifying $text would automatically modify the appropriate file in $*ARGS (for instance) |
| 16:54 |
|
PerlJam |
colomon: or, as in E05, ... "The important point is that, after the match, only those characters that the pattern actually matched will have been removed from the input stream." |
| 16:54 |
|
colomon |
PerlJam: okay, that's a sort of magic I definitely wasn't imagining, and don't have a clue how to do with map, slurp, and join. :) |
| 16:55 |
|
PerlJam |
though that particular thing may just fall out of laziness |
| 16:55 |
|
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| 16:57 |
|
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| 16:58 |
|
colomon |
I was thinking that the internal use of Cat would magically make my example lazy. Don't know if that's true or not, of course.... |
| 16:58 |
|
|
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| 17:02 |
|
* jnthn |
crosses his fingers and runs the spectests, hoping he's knocked one task off the ng major features list |
| 17:02 |
|
colomon |
hashes? |
| 17:02 |
|
jnthn |
No |
| 17:02 |
|
jnthn |
the one that broke |
| 17:02 |
|
jnthn |
ng: my ($a, $b) |
| 17:02 |
|
|
cdarroch joined #perl6 |
| 17:02 |
|
|
cdarroch joined #perl6 |
| 17:02 |
|
p6eval |
ng 58d896: OUTPUT«Redeclaration of symbol $a at line 1, near ""current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)» |
| 17:02 |
|
colomon |
\o/ |
| 17:03 |
|
jnthn |
colomon: Dunno if that'll win us back any tests? |
| 17:03 |
|
colomon |
jnthn: give me a working version of that and some time and it will, for sure. |
| 17:03 |
|
jnthn |
we're down to S32 and the tests are looking OK.... |
| 17:04 |
|
jnthn |
yay, clean. |
| 17:04 |
|
takadonet |
!! |
| 17:05 |
|
jnthn |
colomon: pushed |
| 17:12 |
|
|
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| 17:13 |
|
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| 17:17 |
|
colomon |
pulled, and |
| 17:17 |
|
colomon |
> my ($a, $b) = (1, 2); say $a; say $b; |
| 17:17 |
|
colomon |
Mu() |
| 17:17 |
|
colomon |
Mu() |
| 17:17 |
|
colomon |
On the plus side, stupid error is gone. |
| 17:18 |
|
colomon |
On the minus side, assignment still doesn't work. |
| 17:18 |
|
masak |
you don't need those LHS parens. |
| 17:19 |
|
masak |
sorry, RHS. :/ |
| 17:22 |
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colomon |
seems like my $a; my $b; and then the rest of that last example worked in ng1 a couple of days ago... |
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jnthn |
Yay, 2 more test files uncommented in spectest.data now. :-) |
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takadonet |
good job jnthn |
| 17:39 |
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jnthn |
Another one fully passing and bringing ~50 tests back coming in a moment too, after I check it didn't make any other fail. :-) |
| 17:44 |
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takadonet |
!!!! |
| 17:44 |
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* takadonet |
feels like a cheerleader..... |
| 17:47 |
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jnthn |
Pushed. |
| 17:48 |
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colomon |
pulled. |
| 17:48 |
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jnthn |
colomon: note: push before last needs re-Configure. |
| 17:50 |
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colomon |
thanks. I try to keep an eye open for changes to Makefile.in. :) |
| 17:57 |
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| 18:02 |
|
quietfanatic |
rakudo: my $x = (0 => {say 2}); say 1; $x.value.(); say 3 |
| 18:02 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«13» |
| 18:03 |
|
quietfanatic |
ng: my $x = (0 => {say 2}); say 1; $x.value.(); say 3 |
| 18:03 |
|
p6eval |
ng 58d896: OUTPUT«Confused at line 1, near "my $x = (0"current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)» |
| 18:03 |
|
quietfanatic |
ng: my $x = 0 => {say 2}; say 1; $x.value.(); say 3 |
| 18:03 |
|
p6eval |
ng 58d896: OUTPUT«Confused at line 1, near "my $x = 0 "current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)» |
| 18:04 |
|
quietfanatic |
But that's not the point. The point is that rakudo master cannot call a sub in a pair. |
| 18:05 |
|
quietfanatic |
rakudo: my $x = (0 => sub doit {say "did it"}); say $x.value.WHAT; $x.value.(); say $x.value.name |
| 18:05 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Sub()doit» |
| 18:05 |
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| 18:10 |
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jnthn |
quietfanatic: $x.foo.() is the same as $x.foo() |
| 18:10 |
|
quietfanatic |
No.. |
| 18:10 |
|
quietfanatic |
The former calls the sub returned by $x.foo |
| 18:10 |
|
quietfanatic |
and the latter just calls the method foo on $x with no arguments |
| 18:11 |
|
quietfanatic |
At least, that's how I learned it |
| 18:11 |
|
quietfanatic |
rakudo: my $x = (0 => sub doit {say "did it"}); my &x = $x.value; &x(); |
| 18:11 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«did it» |
| 18:11 |
|
quietfanatic |
Guess that's a workaround |
| 18:11 |
|
quietfanatic |
but |
| 18:11 |
|
quietfanatic |
why? |
| 18:12 |
|
quietfanatic |
oh |
| 18:12 |
|
quietfanatic |
jnthn I though you were asking a question but you wer giving a statement. :| |
| 18:12 |
|
quietfanatic |
*were |
| 18:15 |
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| 18:16 |
|
quietfanatic |
In fact I think I ran into exactly the same problem the last time I wrote this bit of code, and forgot. |
| 18:17 |
|
jnthn |
rakudo: my $x = (0 => {say 2}); say 1; $x.value.().(); say 3 |
| 18:17 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«123» |
| 18:22 |
|
bbkr |
what is the difference between rakudo and ng evals here? |
| 18:23 |
|
quietfanatic |
ng is the branch they're working on the most, but it's not quite complete, so it hasn't been merged into main rakudo yet. |
| 18:23 |
|
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| 18:23 |
|
quietfanatic |
so it's sort of like normal vs. experimental, except that everything here is experimental. |
| 18:23 |
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| 18:27 |
|
colomon |
rakudo: sub test($a) { say "Mu" unless $a; }; test(Mu); |
| 18:27 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$a'; expected Any but got Object insteadin Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)» |
| 18:27 |
|
colomon |
ummm.... |
| 18:27 |
|
TimToady |
that's correct |
| 18:28 |
|
TimToady |
parameters are by default constrained to Any |
| 18:28 |
|
TimToady |
(so that junctions work out naturally) |
| 18:28 |
|
TimToady |
rakudo: sub test(Mu $a) { say "Mu" unless $a; }; test(Mu); |
| 18:29 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Mu» |
| 18:31 |
|
quietfanatic |
How do you produce a value that's undefined but isn't restricted like that? |
| 18:31 |
|
colomon |
Any |
| 18:31 |
|
colomon |
I imagine. |
| 18:31 |
|
colomon |
rakudo: sub test($a) { say "Mu" unless $a; }; test(Any); |
| 18:31 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Mu» |
| 18:31 |
|
quietfanatic |
rakudo: sub test(Int $a) { say "Mu" unless $a; }; test(Any); |
| 18:32 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$a'; expected Int but got Any insteadin Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)» |
| 18:32 |
|
ruoso |
rakudo: sub test($a) { say "Mu" unless $a; }; test(Any | 1); |
| 18:32 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Mu» |
| 18:32 |
|
ruoso |
rakudo: sub test($a) { say "Mu" unless $a; }; test(Any | 1); |
| 18:32 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Mu» |
| 18:32 |
|
ruoso |
hm? |
| 18:32 |
|
ruoso |
rakudo: sub test($a) { say $a; }; test(Any | 1); |
| 18:32 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Any()1» |
| 18:32 |
|
xalbo |
rakudo: sub test(Any $a) {say "Mu" unless $a; } test(Mu); |
| 18:32 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Confused at line 10, near "test(Mu);"in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)» |
| 18:32 |
|
ruoso |
rakudo: sub test($a) { say "Mu" if $a; }; test(Any | 1); |
| 18:33 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Mu» |
| 18:33 |
|
ruoso |
interesting... |
| 18:33 |
|
ruoso |
rakudo: say "is it?" unless 0 | 1 |
| 18:33 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: ( no output ) |
| 18:33 |
|
ruoso |
rakudo: say "is it?" unless Any | 1 |
| 18:33 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: ( no output ) |
| 18:33 |
|
ruoso |
rakudo: sub test($a) { say "Mu" if $a; }; test(Any | 1); |
| 18:33 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Mu» |
| 18:33 |
|
PerlJam |
quietfanatic: Mu is undefines and unrestricted. |
| 18:33 |
|
ruoso |
rakudo: sub test($a) { say "Mu" unless $a; }; test(Any | 1); |
| 18:33 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Mu» |
| 18:33 |
|
PerlJam |
s/nes/ned/ |
| 18:33 |
|
ruoso |
looks like a rakudobug |
| 18:34 |
|
quietfanatic |
no, it's autothreading |
| 18:34 |
|
ruoso |
ahhhhhhhhh |
| 18:34 |
|
quietfanatic |
the Any makes it say Mu and the 1 makes it do nothing |
| 18:34 |
|
ruoso |
rakudo: sub test(Any $a) { say "Mu" unless $a; }; test(Any | 1); |
| 18:34 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Mu» |
| 18:34 |
|
ruoso |
rakudo: sub test(Mu $a) { say "Mu" unless $a; }; test(Any | 1); |
| 18:34 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: ( no output ) |
| 18:34 |
|
ruoso |
ah... ok |
| 18:35 |
|
ruoso |
now it makes sense |
| 18:36 |
|
quietfanatic |
PerlJam: That's not quite what I meant. I meant, can you always pass an undefined value to a routine without knowing what the type of the routine's parameters are? |
| 18:37 |
|
quietfanatic |
PerlJam: I mean, is there an undefined value that can pretend to be any class? |
| 18:37 |
|
PerlJam |
quietfanatic: yes, Mu |
| 18:37 |
|
quietfanatic |
No, see colomon's first sub up there. |
| 18:37 |
|
quietfanatic |
it's rejecting Mu because it's not Any. |
| 18:37 |
|
colomon |
right, the answer is Any. |
| 18:38 |
|
quietfanatic |
But then if your restriction is Int or something, Any will be rejected. |
| 18:38 |
|
colomon |
rakudo: sub test($a) { say "Mu" unless $a; }; test(Any); |
| 18:38 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Mu» |
| 18:38 |
|
colomon |
oh, that's what you meant? |
| 18:38 |
|
quietfanatic |
rakudo: sub test(Int $a) { say "Mu" unless $a; }; test(Any); |
| 18:38 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$a'; expected Int but got Any insteadin Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)» |
| 18:38 |
|
quietfanatic |
That's what I meant |
| 18:38 |
|
colomon |
Is there a way of doing that? It seems like it would be intentionally breaking the class system. |
| 18:38 |
|
PerlJam |
The rakudo implementation is not authoritative :) |
| 18:45 |
|
PerlJam |
Any doesn't include junctions last time I checked, so Mu is the answer |
| 18:46 |
|
TimToady |
binding Nil should produce an appropriate most-undefined type object |
| 18:46 |
|
TimToady |
or perhaps even trigger a default |
| 18:47 |
|
colomon |
PerlJam: Huh? I thought we just determined that Mu couldn't even be Any, much less something like Int. |
| 18:48 |
|
TimToady |
but in general, the point I was making to quietfanatic privately was that you shouldn't be designing your interfaces where undefinedness has some kind of positive semantics |
| 18:48 |
|
TimToady |
especially if Whatever or Nil can suffice |
| 18:49 |
|
quietfanatic |
Nil is exactly what I was thinking of, but what TT says is also true |
| 18:49 |
|
TimToady |
Template Toolkit? |
| 18:50 |
|
TimToady |
TrueType? |
| 18:57 |
|
|
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| 19:00 |
|
PerlJam |
colomon: you determined that *rakudo* thinks Mu can't be Any and I'm not believing rakudo. |
| 19:01 |
|
PerlJam |
if Mu really can't be Any, then I need to re-think what "most undefined" really means. |
| 19:01 |
|
colomon |
PerlJam: You'll notice that TimToady said Rakudo was correct in that immediately afterward. |
| 19:01 |
|
PerlJam |
colomon: Actually I didn't notice. |
| 19:02 |
|
PerlJam |
But I still think it's odd. |
| 19:02 |
|
colomon |
obviously I expected it to work, else I wouldn't have tried it. |
| 19:02 |
|
colomon |
but it makes sense in terms of the definitions... |
| 19:04 |
|
* jnthn |
-> dinner |
| 19:05 |
|
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| 19:05 |
|
PerlJam |
I'll be content to let the language designer(s) work out all of the details so that the house of cards is strong and then I'll grouse about how the cards look more like dominoes or how the spades and clubs look too much alike or something until either my brain adjusts or something else makes it all right. |
| 19:08 |
|
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| 19:18 |
|
TimToady |
well, the point is that Foo ~~ Bar never works if Bar if further down the type hierarchy, and Mu is the only type that is higher than Any |
| 19:19 |
|
TimToady |
though junctions are siblings to Any |
| 19:19 |
|
TimToady |
in a sense, Any is the first well-defined type |
| 19:19 |
|
TimToady |
Mu is the absence of type |
| 19:19 |
|
TimToady |
and junctions have multiple types at once |
| 19:22 |
|
pmichaud |
back from errands and lunch |
| 19:23 |
|
colomon |
\o/ |
| 19:24 |
|
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| 19:26 |
|
pmichaud |
:-| busy week of lots of non-Perl 6 stuff :-| |
| 19:26 |
|
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| 19:31 |
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| 19:32 |
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| 19:34 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm fairly certain that list assignment is not working in ng1 |
| 19:34 |
|
pmichaud |
I had it working in ng, but then we completely changed the meaning of "List" |
| 19:35 |
|
colomon |
pmichaud: at least in the ($a, $b) = whatever form, it certainly isn't. |
| 19:35 |
|
colomon |
on the plus side, jnthn++ fixed my ($a, $b); |
| 19:35 |
|
pmichaud |
yes, I saw that. jnthn++ |
| 19:36 |
|
pmichaud |
I have an $otherjob task to do and then I'll see if I can quickly bring the ng-list-assignment stuff over to ng1 |
| 19:38 |
|
colomon |
\o/ |
| 19:44 |
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| 19:56 |
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| 20:00 |
|
TimToady |
phone |
| 20:03 |
|
pmichaud |
phone :) |
| 20:14 |
|
jonasbn |
phone? |
| 20:27 |
|
PerlJam |
phone. |
| 20:28 |
|
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| 20:29 |
|
colomon |
no phone. |
| 20:29 |
|
* TimToady |
is phony |
| 20:30 |
|
PerlJam |
TimToady: do you guys really get much done via phone that you wouldn't get done via IRC? Does the change in medium help? |
| 20:34 |
|
pmichaud |
PerlJam: Yes. |
| 20:35 |
|
pmichaud |
afk, kid pickup |
| 20:43 |
|
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diakopter |
std: *.*() |
| 21:57 |
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p6eval |
std 29636: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m» |
| 21:58 |
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arnsholt |
diakopter: Bonus points if you know what it means too =) |
| 21:58 |
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diakopter |
std: *&*|*&*|*&*|*&* |
| 21:58 |
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p6eval |
std 29636: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m» |
| 21:58 |
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diakopter |
arnsholt: I don't do semantics |
| 21:58 |
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arnsholt |
Heh |
| 22:00 |
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diakopter |
std: ----------- 7 |
| 22:00 |
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p6eval |
std 29636: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 106m» |
| 22:03 |
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diakopter |
std: @{@{} |
| 22:03 |
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p6eval |
std 29636: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0mUnsupported use of @{@{}; in Perl 6 please use @(@{) at /tmp/9GMMN529SU line 1:------> @{@{}⏏<EOL>FAILED 00:01 106m» |
| 22:03 |
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diakopter |
std: @(@{) |
| 22:03 |
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p6eval |
std 29636: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0mAnonymous variable requires declarator at /tmp/g6ZVtuN3F3 line 1:------> @(@⏏{) expecting twigilFAILED 00:01 106m» |
| 22:05 |
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arnsholt |
diakopter: You're ebbil |
| 22:05 |
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diakopter |
at least I'm not bible or bbile |
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| 22:28 |
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spinclad |
rakudo: my $x = (0 => {say 2}); say 1; ($x.value).(); say 3 |
| 22:28 |
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p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«123» |
| 22:28 |
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spinclad |
rakudo: my $x = (0 => {say 2}); say 1; $x.value().(); say 3 |
| 22:28 |
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p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«123» |
| 22:29 |
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spinclad |
these make sense |
| 22:29 |
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spinclad |
rakudo: my $x = (0 => {say 2}); say 1; $x.value,().(); say 3 |
| 22:29 |
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p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«1invoke() not implemented in class 'Undef'in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)» |
| 22:30 |
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spinclad |
rakudo: my $x = (0 => {say 2}); say 1; $x.value.().(); say 3 |
| 22:30 |
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p6eval |
rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«123» |
| 22:31 |
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spinclad |
and it makes sense to me that postfix:<( )> is recognized the same with or without the dot. |
| 22:33 |
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spinclad |
so .value.() == .value() and you need a second .() to call the returned sub. |
| 22:44 |
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