Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-02-05

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:01 diakopter heh
00:02 TimToady take out the spaces and it runs much slower
00:03 diakopter orly
00:03 TimToady I suspect the reduction-op detector doesn't fail as quickly
00:04 TimToady the line that tests:         <?before '['\S+']'>
00:05 TimToady which usually falsifies most array composers immediately
00:08 diakopter std: \[]\{}\()\++
00:08 p6eval std 29642: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤»
00:08 TimToady std: \[]\   {}\   ()\    ++
00:08 p6eval std 29642: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤»
00:09 TimToady std: my $a = 1; $a\i;
00:09 p6eval std 29642: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 107m␤»
00:10 sjohnson 1hi
00:10 diakopter hi0
00:15 TimToady ng: say say 'hi'
00:16 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«hi␤1␤»
00:16 TimToady ng: print print 'hi'
00:16 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«hi1»
00:23 sjohnson heh
00:24 sjohnson TimToady: have you seen the anime "Legend of Basara"?
00:24 sjohnson it's 1999 (c) i think.. so a bit of an older one
00:38 TimToady no, missed that one
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01:34 sjohnson TimToady: it's good
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05:05 Tene okay, I've actually got an hour or two here to work on rakudo.
05:11 JimmyZ Tene++
05:13 Tene I've totally lost the plot again.  No idea what to work on now.
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05:54 eternaleye Hm. I thought ?& was just boolean and, not boolean bitwise and as colomon said
06:06 TimToady it's bitwise if you're only wise about one bit, otherwise it's +&
06:06 TimToady well, or ~&, if you're bitwising a buffer
06:07 TimToady though arguably »+&« would do the same thing
06:08 TimToady given buffers can behave as integer arrays
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06:27 eternaleye Heh, even bitwise ops are TMTOWTDI
06:28 eternaleye Hm, there could be a few cases where ~& has different effects from »+&«, namely where the bufs have a different number of elements, or have different units
06:29 eternaleye buf8 vs buf32
06:29 eternaleye Maybe that should be an anti-pattern
06:30 eternaleye Since AFAIU, hypers line up the front and extend the back by repeating the last element, whereas bitwise lines up the back and extends the front with zeroes
06:42 TimToady no, hypers never extend
06:43 TimToady they can xx * a single value into a whole dimension though
06:43 TimToady I'd think on a buf it would assume the final missing bits were all zeros
06:44 eternaleye Ah
06:44 TimToady I think p5 does bitwise strings that way
06:44 eternaleye Still, that would have... interesting results to extend at the end, assuming big-endianism
06:45 eternaleye For a buf, at least. Bitwising a string is probably ill-advised
06:45 TimToady perl -le 'print "AAAA" | "B"'
06:45 TimToady prints CAAA
06:45 eternaleye In P6
06:46 eternaleye 512.buf8 >>+|<< 1.buf8 == 512
06:47 eternaleye Under that property
06:47 __rnddim__ left #perl6
06:47 TimToady well, don't do that then.  :)
06:47 eternaleye Hence why I think it should be an anti-pattern as above
06:48 eternaleye P6BP
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07:07 Su-Shee good morning
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08:44 moritz_ good morning
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09:03 * mathw mumbles about CPAN
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09:13 moritz_ http://asset.soup.io/asset/0665/7601_adf1.jpeg
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09:29 mathw moritz_: lol
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10:08 jnthn morning, parrotfolk
10:08 jnthn erm
10:08 jnthn perl6folk
10:08 jnthn gah
10:08 jnthn :-)
10:08 jnthn .oO( before drinking coffee, ALWAYS read the same mailing list as the channel you're greeting )
10:10 * moritz_ is a butterflyparrot
10:14 payload joined #perl6
10:15 * frettled wants a biscuit.
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10:41 masak ahojte, #perl6 folks!
10:41 moritz_ good morning mathw
10:41 moritz_ erm, masak
10:41 moritz_ both :-)
10:41 masak :)
10:42 masak I'm very happy about the effect the one-liner I posted yesterday had.
10:42 masak I should perhaps source it, too: http://bumppo.net/lists/fun-wi​th-perl/2001/02/msg00003.html
10:43 jnthn masak: ahoj! :-)
10:44 masak jnthn: ako sa mas?
10:45 jnthn masak: Mam sa dobre, dakujem. A ty?
10:46 masak Mam sa tiez dobre.
10:47 masak (uncertain about placement of 'tiez'...)
10:49 jnthn masak: On the end is certainly safe...and probably more usual, I'd say.
10:49 jnthn Word order is often quite free though. :-)
10:49 masak that's what excessive use of cases gives you. :)
10:50 jnthn Excessive? Excessive? It's Slovak, not Finish!
10:50 masak fair enough. :)
10:50 jnthn At least we have one less than Czech. ;-)
10:50 masak O RLY? didn't know that.
10:51 jnthn Czech also has vocative case.
10:51 masak oh, vocative... :P
10:51 masak that's hardly a case to begin with.
10:51 jnthn :-P
10:53 frettled heh
10:54 masak I'm re-backlogging the discussion with forrest++ from yesterday.
10:54 masak it's borderline blog material.
10:55 jnthn masak: 1 month until I gotta s/Slovak/Swedish/
10:55 masak I especially like "you guys rock" in the middle of it all. :)
10:55 jnthn forrest: I backlogged over that one. It was good. :-)
10:55 jnthn erm
10:55 jnthn masak:
10:55 masak :)
10:55 jnthn ...today I can't multi-task...
10:56 masak jnthn: looking forward to having you here. did I mention that I'm open for spontaneous weekend hackathons? :)
10:57 jnthn masak: Yes, we should arrange that. :-)
10:57 jnthn oh wait
10:57 jnthn :-)
10:58 masak 'spontaneous, adj.: ...'
10:58 masak :P
10:59 jnthn masak: Looks like I may be ending up in Lund. You can come and complain about the modern university there. ;-)
11:00 masak Lund has a university? hm, that *does* sound vaguely familiar... :)
11:01 jnthn Yeah, but it's nowhere near as good as all of the ones in Sweden. :)
11:01 jnthn *all of the *older* ones
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11:02 masak actually, some of my best friends are from Lund.
11:02 masak (they talk funny!)
11:02 jnthn lol!
11:02 jnthn Does that mean I'll learn funny Swedish? :-)
11:03 masak yes, I just realized that.
11:03 masak and not for the first time, I think.
11:04 masak jnthn: you'll be like the guy in the joke who speaks dialect with an accent. :P
11:04 jnthn That sounds like my kinda role. :-)
11:05 masak role Jnthn { ... }
11:05 jnthn I am, but a stub. :-P
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11:05 masak oh! by the way, I think I've found a slight inconsistency having to do with traits.
11:06 masak just give me a minute to prepare some examples.
11:07 masak right. here goes.
11:07 masak rakudo: role A { has $.a is rw }; my $x = 5 but A(42); say $x.a
11:07 p6eval rakudo 1d4928:  ( no output )
11:07 masak locally, that gives '42'.
11:07 masak no problem there.
11:07 masak now watch:
11:07 masak rakudo: class A { has $.a is rw }; my $x = A(42)
11:07 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'A'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
11:08 masak why the discrepancy?
11:08 jnthn masak: but A(42) is not an invocation, but a special syntactic form.
11:09 jnthn (the RHS of but and does get managed)
11:09 jnthn *mangled
11:09 masak oh, I thought it was a conversion to A or something.
11:09 masak and that one-attribute types got special treatment.
11:09 jnthn A(42) on its own should do that.
11:10 jnthn Though it's identical to 42.A
11:10 jnthn So you'd better have monkey-patched ya Int.
11:10 masak hm.
11:10 jnthn (Recent spec change explicitly made TypeName($foo) and $foo.TypeName equivalent.)
11:10 masak nod.
11:10 jnthn (Though I'd mentally had it that way for a while.)
11:11 masak like purl, you already had it that way, jnthn.
11:11 jnthn I'd understood it from S14 as a special syntactic form to the RHS of but and does though.
11:11 jnthn masak: Sorry, I don't follow...
11:11 jnthn :-)
11:11 masak :)
11:11 jnthn Ah, purl.
11:12 masak Ah, abscense of purl.
11:13 jnthn Actually, that is preferable. :-)
11:15 jnthn masak: Looked it up.
11:15 jnthn From S14:
11:15 jnthn Note that the parenthesized form is I<not> a subroutine or method call.
11:15 jnthn It's just special initializing syntax for roles that contain a single
11:15 jnthn property.
11:15 masak oh, good.
11:15 masak then I'll hold my peace.
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11:29 masak haha, moritz_++ # http://asset.soup.io/asset/0665/7601_adf1.jpeg
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11:46 IllvilJa Hello folks! o/
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12:02 colomon \o
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12:34 colomon ng: say (1, 2, 5, 5767 min -6, 7)
12:34 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«125-67␤»
12:34 colomon ng: say (1, 2, 5, 5767 min -6, 7).perl
12:34 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 5, -6, 7)␤»
12:35 colomon ng: say 4 min 56 min -5
12:35 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«-5␤»
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12:41 masak IllvilJa: oh hai!
12:46 * masak re-reads http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/200​9/12/21/day-21-grammars-and-actions/
12:47 masak I think a good summary of Perl 6 to a Perl 5 person might be: "We re-did regexes, and made them a core part of the language to the point of bootstrapping."
12:47 masak s/bootstrapping/self-hosting/
12:48 moritz_ selfboothoststrapping
12:48 masak "Self-host your own bootstrapps, for free!"
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13:04 Juerd Who's going to fosdem?
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13:21 takadonet morning all
13:23 sjohnson hi
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13:25 pmurias hi
13:25 colomon o/
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13:53 masak are there any plans to expose the OPTable parser through some API to the Perl 6 programmer?
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14:05 mathw masak: spot on in your tweet re: java
14:05 masak mind you, I still like the language.
14:05 masak but it can be ridiculously verbose sometimes.
14:06 mathw I would dedicate my life to eradicating it
14:06 masak I wouldn't. :)
14:06 mathw But then I wouldn't have time to play with Perl 6
14:06 mathw or learn to play the ukulele that's now on its way to me
14:06 masak actually, I find I'm fairly happy developling Java if I go fully TDD.
14:08 PerlJam eradicate java?  Seems like a futile effort at best  :)
14:08 PerlJam good $localtime all
14:08 moritz_ actually I'm fairly happy that java exists as long as I don't have to touch it :-)
14:08 mathw moritz_: Don't you ever pity the people who have to use it every day?
14:09 moritz_ mathw: sometimes I do
14:09 moritz_ mathw: but I have received offers for two perl jobs, so I'd say it's possible to use a decent alternative if you really want (that might involve changing location though)
14:11 mathw True
14:11 mathw I occasionally have to use Java here
14:11 mathw it's usually painful
14:11 mathw But then, our C++ is sometimes painful too due to archaic compilers
14:12 moritz_ Your branch is behind 'origin/ng' by 90 commits, and can be fast-forwarded.
14:12 moritz_ wow.
14:13 mathw someone's been busy
14:15 PerlJam moritz_: hah!  I've got you beat:  Your branch is behind 'origin/ng' by 92 commits, and can be fast-forwarded.
14:15 PerlJam :-)
14:15 masak yes, let's restore the atmosphere of furious activity which we had during large parts of 2009...
14:16 masak I think that would require high amounts of both jnthn and pmichaud here on the channel, though.
14:17 * mathw not clever enough
14:18 PerlJam mathw: not clever enough for what?
14:18 masak is there a shorter way to say /<+alpha - [_]>/ ?
14:18 colomon actually, I think we could go crazy without them, if we had ng just a bit further along...
14:18 masak 'go crazy' in the good sense, I take it. :)
14:18 colomon masak: yes.
14:18 moritz_ masak: /<+isL+isD>/ maybe?
14:18 PerlJam moritz_: does that work?
14:19 masak isL?
14:19 colomon There's enough fundamental stuff broken still in ng to make progress hard, and its the sort of fundamental stuff most of us can't do.
14:19 moritz_ masak: L = Letter
14:19 moritz_ Unicode classification
14:19 moritz_ rakudo: 'a' ~~ /<isL>/; say $/
14:19 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«a␤»
14:19 mathw PerlJam: serious rakudo hacking
14:19 masak ok, cool.
14:19 moritz_ rakudo: 'a' ~~ /<+isL+isD>/; say $/
14:19 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«a␤»
14:19 masak yet another thing that doesn't have tests in PGE... :P
14:20 PerlJam mathw: I think you sell yourself short.
14:20 * masak too
14:20 mathw PerlJam: it's possible I'm just too ignorant and not able to find enough time to get up to speed
14:21 jnthn mathw: It *does* take time to get into the swing of it. Took me some anyway.
14:21 PerlJam mathw: that's exactly my problem.  I can only get up to a slow speed and then I end up with long absences where the universe shifts under my feet and I feel like I need to start all over again.
14:21 jnthn And I had the added benefit of having been a core Parrot hacker once.
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14:22 masak "ICU not loaded" :-(
14:22 masak how do I build Parrot with ICU?
14:22 PerlJam mathw: but you keep plugging away.  Every little bit helps.
14:23 mathw I've done nothing for months
14:23 moritz_ masak: 1) install libicu-dev 2) reconfigure and rebuild parrot 3) reconfigure and rebuild rakudo
14:23 masak thanks. I'll try that.
14:23 mathw I just offer baseless opinions on IRC :)
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14:30 * masak got ahold of "The Art Of The Metaobject Protocol" today
14:31 colomon mathw: one super-useful thing you can do with relatively little knowledge of Rakudo's guts is work on tests.
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14:31 * moritz_ agrees
14:31 colomon The operator stuff I was poking around with yesterday seems extremely under-tested, for instance.
14:32 moritz_ rakudo: say 5.11
14:32 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«5.11␤»
14:32 moritz_ rakudo: say 5..11
14:32 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«567891011␤»
14:32 moritz_ ng: say 5..11
14:32 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«567891011␤»
14:32 mathw colomon: yeah I've never really got into test writing
14:32 mathw I think I always wanted to be in the compiler or doing the setting or something
14:32 mathw but I never found the time to learn the necessary magic
14:33 moritz_ for the setting the necessary magic is called Perl 6 :-)
14:33 mathw sometimes
14:33 moritz_ well, that's not quite true - sometimes you need a bit more
14:34 mathw I always seem to pick something ridiculously difficult :)
14:34 mathw of course, I could even finish Form.pm one day
14:35 masak in retrospect, I'm slightly surprised that my choice of operator for the one-liner yesterday worked: I really wanted +& rather than ?&. but it strikes me now that the only difference between these two is that ?& normalizes non-0 values to 1. that also explains colomon++'s 'isne' opcode.
14:36 masak mathw: I'd very much like to see Form.pm be finished. I'm even willing to help. :)
14:36 mathw sometimes that might be important distinction
14:36 mathw masak: yay! encouragement!
14:36 mathw I'd better do it fast, before my ukulele comes
14:36 * masak encourages a bit more
14:37 colomon Back to what I was saying about tests -- in a lot of way, the hardest thing about implementing ?& was that there weren't any good tests for it.
14:37 colomon *ways
14:38 masak and I guess ~& would be treating two Bufs as sequences of bits and doing bitwise AND on them. hm, guess they'd be zero-padded on the right if they're of different length.
14:39 colomon Really, I was relying on masak's one-liner to indicate what the operator should be doing.
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14:39 colomon The existing tests didn't do anything to test the bitwise nature of the operator.
14:39 masak (Kevin Reid)++
14:40 colomon ng: say 3 +& 5
14:40 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«1␤»
14:40 colomon ng: say 3 +& 7
14:40 masak colomon: add to t/spec/TODO that bitwise op tests are needed?
14:40 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«3␤»
14:40 colomon masak: naw, I added some tests myself yesterday.
14:40 masak even better. colomon++
14:41 masak another question: is the return type of $x ?& $y a Bool?
14:41 masak usually, things with the '?' prefix are Bool-ish.
14:41 moritz_ yes
14:41 mathw ...I think so
14:41 colomon but as I was saying yesterday, that's a bit dangerous, because if my understanding of what the operators are supposed to do is wrong, then both the code and the tests are wrong.
14:42 masak so the result would not smartmatch against Num?
14:42 colomon ng: say (3 ?& 1).WHAT
14:42 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
14:42 masak EMORETESTSNEEDED
14:42 colomon huh, I thought the output of prefix ? was boolean?
14:42 jnthn ng: say (?42).WHAT
14:42 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
14:43 colomon rakudo: say (?1).WHAT
14:43 jnthn colomon: That's the Real Issue.
14:43 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Bool()␤»
14:43 colomon jnthn: right.
14:43 moritz_ colomon: I found the name boolean-bitwise.t quite confusing
14:43 masak I have that as a rakudobug on standby already :P
14:43 jnthn prefix:<?> is has a fail
14:43 moritz_ if it's boolean, it's logical and not bitwise
14:43 * masak cackles
14:43 colomon moritz_: It tests the booean bitwise operators.  what would you call it?  :)
14:43 colomon *boolean
14:43 * mathw has a sudden picture of his cat looking at prefix:<?> with that long-suffering contempt on his face
14:44 moritz_ colomon: in what way is ?& bitwise?
14:44 masak moritz_: oh, it is!
14:44 masak moritz_: it's ;boolean bitwise; according to S02.
14:44 masak er, S03.
14:44 moritz_ hrmpf
14:45 colomon ng: say 5 ?& 16
14:45 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«0␤»
14:45 colomon rakudo: say 5 ?& 16
14:45 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«0␤»
14:45 masak that's correct, at least.
14:45 moritz_ is it?
14:45 moritz_ I thought ?& coerces both sides to bool first
14:45 masak Bool stringifies to 0 or 1.
14:45 masak moritz_: no.
14:45 colomon moritz_: other way, it coerces the output to bool.
14:45 masak moritz_: it does the AND bitwise, and then coerces to Bool.
14:46 moritz_ that makes no sense at all.
14:46 masak sure it does!
14:46 masak otherwise it'd be just &&.
14:46 colomon but again, this is why the old tests were frustrating, because they didn't test the bitwise bit at all.
14:46 masak that's what I realized this morning.
14:46 moritz_ to me ?& and && were synonymous
14:46 masak that's not so.
14:47 masak did you think Perl 6 just went around inventing operators for the fun of it? pfft! :P
14:47 moritz_ and I thought the motivation behind +& and ~& was that you can't sensibly bitwise-or a string and a number
14:47 moritz_ so the operators coerce to a common type first
14:47 moritz_ and then do their operation
14:48 masak in a way, all of ~& +& ?& coerce to a string of bits first.
14:48 masak and then coerce back to a Buf, Int, and Bool, respectively.
14:48 masak after doing the bitwise AND, that is.
14:49 moritz_ so what should 3 ~& "3" be?
14:49 masak no idea.
14:49 moritz_ or better, 3 +& "3"
14:49 masak not sure you can auto-coerce strings to bufs.
14:49 masak oh, that latter one's easy.
14:49 masak that's 3.
14:49 masak as an Int.
14:50 moritz_ infix:{'+&'}, numeric bitwise and
14:50 moritz_ $x +& $y
14:50 moritz_ Converts both arguments to integer and does a bitwise numeric AND.
14:50 moritz_ from S03
14:50 moritz_ so coerce first
14:50 moritz_ then operate
14:50 masak I'm not disagreeing.
14:50 masak it's consistent with what I wrote above.
14:50 masak though I called the integer 'a string of bits'. :)
14:51 moritz_ but to stay consistent, ?& also needs to coerce to bool first
14:51 moritz_ and then operate
14:51 masak then it wouldn't be bitwise.
14:51 masak as S03 says it is.
14:52 colomon but then the word "bitwise" is complete... what masak said.
14:52 jnthn .oO( everyone is sounding a bit wise in this debate )
14:52 moritz_ that's why I complained about the term bitwise
14:52 moritz_ I think it's wrong
14:53 masak fwiw, I like the current behaviour of ?&, even though I agree it's not 100% consistent.
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14:53 masak I think it's more useful as it is now than as a synonym of &&.
14:53 moritz_ it's completely detrimal to what everything else in Perl 6 does
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14:53 moritz_ all other builtins coerce their arguments, not their return types
14:53 colomon moritz_: so you're saying of the three words in the spec defining what ?& does, one of them is wrong?
14:53 moritz_ s/types/values/
14:53 moritz_ colomon: right
14:53 * mathw thinks they should be consistent
14:54 moritz_ note that it's still not the same as &&
14:54 moritz_ because && is by definition short-circuit
14:54 moritz_ which is not guarantueed for the ?&
14:54 masak oh, good point.
14:55 mathw and it can still be bitwise, it's just that bitwise operations on Bools are... well... not very interesting :)
14:56 masak which means S03 is less-than-clearly worded.
14:57 colomon note that it is only +& which is defined as coercing its arguments.  ~& just says "buffer bitwise and".
14:57 masak colomon: well, what would happen if either of the operands isn't a buffer?
14:57 moritz_ and by "buffer" TimToady actually means "coerce to a buffer first"
14:58 colomon masak: it could just fail... I certainly have no instinctive feel for how an Int becomes a buffer.
14:59 masak it could, if there's a standard chunk size.
14:59 colomon and a standard endianness?
15:00 colomon or how a Num becomes a buffer, for that matter.
15:00 * masak boggles
15:01 moritz_ we know how to coerce a Num or Int to Str
15:01 moritz_ and Str to Buf is an encoding step
15:01 moritz_ but I think it should really be Stringy, not Buf
15:01 masak I thought the encoding step shouldn't be taken automatically or implicitly.
15:02 masak that would mean that the programmer doesn't have to be aware of it.
15:02 moritz_ that's why I think that ~& should coerce to Stringy
15:02 masak which in turn would mean that something could be wrongly encoded.
15:02 moritz_ for which Str is a valid implementation
15:03 colomon Do we really know how to coerce a Num to a Str in a useful fashion for this?
15:03 colomon I mean, .Str basically is "give us a printable form".
15:04 masak as opposed to what?
15:04 colomon as opposed to "give us the printable form".
15:04 masak the one true form of the number?
15:05 colomon As far as I know, it's allowed to vary from implementation to implementation.
15:05 pmurias that would be bad
15:05 colomon With rounding errors, etc, that's actually a big deal for Nums.
15:07 colomon ooo, obsolete bit on Num in S02: "One consequence of all this is that you may no longer write a Num as 42. with just a trailing dot. You must instead say either 42 or 42.0."  42.0 isn't a Num anymore...
15:07 masak no?
15:07 masak rakudo: say 42.0.WHAT
15:07 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
15:08 mathw colomon: I'm not sure that's a big deal
15:08 jnthn ng: say 42.0.WHAT
15:08 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
15:08 masak but Rat ~~ Num, no?
15:08 masak rakudo: say Rat ~~ Num
15:08 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:08 masak o_O
15:08 pmurias what's preventing us from having a implementation independent format for converting Nums to Strs?
15:09 masak rakudo: say Int ~~ Num
15:09 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:09 jnthn masak: Numeric
15:09 pmurias ng: say Rat ~~ Num
15:09 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:09 masak tell me the logic of Int being a Num but Rat not being a Num.
15:09 jnthn masak: I'm not sure if Int ~~ Num should be true any more.
15:09 masak rakudo: Numeric
15:09 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub Numeric␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤»
15:09 pmurias Rat can hold values which Num can't
15:10 * masak submits a very confused rakudobug
15:10 jnthn So can Int. :-)
15:12 pmurias jnthn: so one could argue it shouldn't ~~ Num
15:12 colomon It definitely shouldn't, IMO.
15:12 colomon they're all Numeric.
15:12 colomon that's the real relationship that's interesting.
15:13 colomon anything else is asking for trouble.
15:14 jnthn pmurias: My understanding is what colomon just said.
15:14 jnthn pmurias: Some tests will need updating and stuff though
15:14 jnthn colomon: We should probably try and do that in ng.
15:14 jnthn colomon: It shouldn't be *too* hard.
15:15 colomon jnthn: my only question on doing it is it seems relatively less important to have it ready for Rakudo *.
15:15 colomon on doing it now, I mean.
15:16 jnthn colomon: I'd say it matters - we want people to starting writing Numeric.
15:16 jnthn Rather than Num
15:16 jnthn When any numeric-y thing will do.
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15:33 masak I often have the need to 'demote' a Match hierarchy into a structure only containing the AST, not the actual .to and .from information.
15:33 masak sort of a projection.
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15:35 colomon jnthn: hold that thought.  :)
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15:44 colomon ye gads, I think moritz_ might be right...
15:45 masak and here I was thinking "for once it's masak pointing out the correct interpretation of the spec to moritz_, not the other way around..." :-P
15:45 colomon I'm writing a comparison of ideas, will paste in a moment.
15:46 masak colomon++
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15:49 lisppaste3 colomon pasted ""Bitwise boolean": what does it mean?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94417
15:50 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
15:50 pmurias ruoso: hi
15:50 colomon masak: to be fair, I'd still argue that the spec pretty clearly is specifying the first of those.
15:51 colomon it just seems like the second is actually the more interesting operation to make readily available.
15:51 masak colomon: fwiw, I think moritz_ is right, and that things are consistent, and that the spec is unclear as it currently reads.
15:52 masak colomon: but I also deplore the nice shortcut for ?($a +& $b) that I just thought I discovered.
15:52 masak to what extent I deplore it, I don't really know.
15:53 colomon Mind you, I still don't think there's a sane DWIM way to coerce things to buffers for ~&.  :)
15:53 masak in my defense, even though I think I'm wrong, whoever implemented ?& in Rakudo master must have been wrong in the same way. :)
15:53 colomon masak: but the thing is, for most uses the ? there is completely unneeded anyway.
15:54 colomon your one-liner from yesterday would work just fine if you used +& instead of ?&, no changes needed.
15:55 colomon ng: say 3 +& 7
15:55 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«3␤»
15:55 colomon what's more, it would have worked in ng yesterday without needing me to add any operators.  :p
15:56 * TimToady wishes someone had made coffee before he got up...
15:56 masak colomon: right. I really should have used +& regardless.
15:57 colomon TimToady: on the bright side, I think you waited long enough that we've all agreed on what needs to be done.  :)
15:59 masak .oO( late TimToady binding )
16:02 masak rakudo: sub foo { say $^k; return { $^k => 1 } }; say foo(42).perl
16:02 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«42␤{ ... }␤»
16:02 masak should the thing that foo returns really be a closure and not a hash?
16:03 TimToady the intent of the spec was to coerce both sides to Bool, then AND those two bits
16:03 masak TimToady: 'bitwise' usually signifies that there are many bits to traverse.
16:04 masak (thus, I argue, the wording in S03 is confusing)
16:04 colomon okay, will fix tests and ng.
16:04 TimToady oh, likely, but it's "boolean bitwise", and booleans only have one bit
16:04 colomon TimToady can fix the spec.  :)
16:04 pugs_svn r29643 | pmurias++ | [mildew] the dominator for a given block is calculated,
16:04 pugs_svn r29643 | fixed AST::Seq->jumps for empty blocks
16:05 TimToady and futher on down it says it's equivalent to ?$a * ?$b != 0
16:05 TimToady *further even
16:06 colomon TimToady: It shouldn't short-circuit, right?
16:08 TimToady correct
16:09 colomon Can anyone thing of a test that would distinguish our old, broken version from the new coerce to boolean version for ?|
16:10 TimToady 1 ?| 2 > 1
16:10 TimToady if ?| was doing +|
16:11 TimToady ng: say 1 +| 2
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16:11 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«3␤»
16:11 colomon ?|  was doing +| and then coercing the result to Bool
16:11 TimToady ng: say 1 ?| 2
16:11 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:11 TimToady hmm
16:12 colomon I couldn't think of anything, and suspect it's not possible, but there are a lot of smart people on this channel...
16:12 TimToady don't think it's possible
16:13 TimToady but if ?& is wrong, ?| probably is too :)
16:13 TimToady hmm, maybe a type that can detect it when it was converted to Bool
16:14 TimToady by virtue of providing its own method Bool
16:15 colomon TimToady: brill!
16:16 colomon assuming that's how prefix:<?> is implemented, anyway.
16:16 TimToady well, it's conversion to something that does Boolean role, but there aren't many types to choose from :)
16:17 TimToady whereas prefix:<+> will eventually have to decide (by parsing) which form of Numeric is most appropriate
16:18 pugs_svn r29644 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Change ?|, ?&, and ?^ to the proper behavior (ie coercing to Bool before the operation).
16:20 colomon ng: say (False).succ
16:20 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤»
16:21 dalek rakudo/ng: 322d1ce | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/operators.pm:
16:21 dalek rakudo/ng: Change ?|, ?&, and ?^ to the proper behavior (ie coercing to Bool before the operation).
16:21 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​22d1ce5e5a1c238169f7771907ad51521ec54ea
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16:23 colomon jnthn: does token prefix:sym<?>   { <!before '???'> <sym>  <O('%symbolic_unary, :pirop<istrue>')> } mean that prefix:<?> is being implemented with "istrue"?
16:23 ruoso hi pmurias
16:24 jnthn colomon: Yeah, but that's probably copy-pasta from nqp-rx
16:25 jnthn colomon: I expect we need to remove the :pirop<istrue> and then implement multi prefix:<?>.
16:25 jnthn So it returns a Bool
16:25 colomon jnthn: that's what I was thinking.
16:25 jnthn :-)
16:26 TimToady ng: say "yes" if 0 but True
16:26 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$r'; expected Role but got Bool instead␤current instr.: '&infix:<does>' pc 201810 (src/gen/core.pir:1840)␤»
16:26 colomon something like pir::istrue__A($a) ?? Bool::True !! Bool::False
16:26 TimToady ng: say "yes" if 0 but Bool::True
16:26 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$r'; expected Role but got Bool instead␤current instr.: '&infix:<does>' pc 201810 (src/gen/core.pir:1840)␤»
16:26 colomon erm, A isn't right.  II?
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16:26 masak colomon: why not just prefix:<?> ?
16:27 colomon masak: because that's my suggested implement of prefix:<?>
16:27 masak oh!
16:27 masak carry on, then. :)
16:27 TimToady just call .Bool, I imagine
16:27 colomon TimToady: then I have to implement .Bool for Mu....
16:28 colomon (Which is not to say you are wrong...)
16:28 TimToady the default is the same as .defined
16:28 TimToady that's specced somewhere
16:28 colomon the default .Bool, you mean?
16:28 TimToady yes
16:29 * jnthn agrees with TimToady fwiw :-)
16:29 colomon Hmmm, then I have to implement .Bool for Mu and Any, but it will be pretty easy.
16:29 TimToady if you implement it for Mu, you have it for Any
16:29 colomon do we have tests for this stuff?
16:29 jnthn colomon: Why Any also?
16:29 jnthn Any ~~ Mu :-)
16:29 colomon Implementation for Any will be different, no?
16:29 TimToady at least for single dispatch
16:29 jnthn colomon: Don't think so.
16:29 masak colomon: no, still defers to .defined.
16:30 colomon It can't just be .defined everywhere!
16:30 TimToady overridden by Num, Str, etc
16:30 colomon then I have to define Num.Bool, Str.Bool, etc, and I don't know where all it needs to go.
16:30 TimToady Cool *might* have an override
16:30 * masak doesn't think so
16:31 jnthn colomon: Yes, those need doing, but shouldn't be too hard to write.
16:31 colomon All right, I'm wading in.
16:31 jnthn colomon: e.g. for Str I guess it's just method Bool() { self ne "" }
16:31 * colomon needs to remember to do $work at some point...
16:31 TimToady "0" is false
16:31 PerlJam colomon: *you* don't have to do all of those ... just the ones you know how to do :)
16:31 colomon someone find out where the tests  for this stuff is, mo'kay?
16:32 jnthn TimToady: "0.0"? :-)
16:32 PerlJam colomon: or remember, you don't *have to* do anything :)
16:33 colomon PerlJam: Are you saying you'll support me when I push a half-finished prefix:<?> that doesn't work for half the types in the Perl 6 universe?  ;)
16:34 colomon If there are really good tests out there somewhere, this shouldn't be too bad.
16:35 colomon On the other hand, I just changed it to .Bool without implementing any .Bool methods at all, and passed make test....
16:35 PerlJam see?  not a problem  ;>
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16:36 colomon oh, hey, think I just thought of a working test for ?| that distinguishes it from the old, broken version.
16:36 colomon rakudo: say ?"0"
16:36 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«0␤»
16:36 colomon ooo, spectest fails horribly.
16:37 colomon wait, most of those are actually TODO passed....
16:38 colomon Mu already has .defined for .Bool
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16:39 colomon Method 'Bool' not found for invocant of class 'Regex;Match'
16:40 colomon I think that might actually be it.
16:41 colomon any hints on how to implement that?
16:42 TimToady a match object is already supposed to know whether it worked somehow
16:42 colomon I'm completely failing to understand the master version.
16:42 TimToady if ? currently works, do whatever that does
16:42 TimToady ng: say ?/foo/
16:42 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:43 colomon ng: my $a = 'hello' ~~ /ll/; say ?$a
16:43 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:43 colomon ng: my $a = 'hello' ~~ /llll/; say ?$
16:43 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«Confused at line 1, near "say ?$"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
16:43 colomon ng: my $a = 'hello' ~~ /llll/; say ?$a
16:43 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«0␤»
16:44 TimToady ng: say so Mu ~~ /foo/
16:44 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«Method 'match' not found for invocant of class ''␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;ACCEPTS' pc 12823 (src/builtins/Code.pir:37)␤»
16:44 TimToady ng: say so /foo/
16:44 p6eval ng 8aa3b7: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:44 TimToady O_o
16:44 jnthn so?
16:45 jnthn ;-)
16:45 TimToady /foo/ in a boolean context should match against $_
16:45 jnthn Yes, I was just remembering what "so" was.
16:45 TimToady but ? didn't work right either
16:45 jnthn It was one of those thingies added while I wasn't watching the channel so closely.
16:46 jnthn I guess it just calls .Bool though?
16:46 jnthn Or does it use ?
16:46 colomon jnthn: so any idea what the magic letters should be for pir::istrue ?
16:46 jnthn colomon: What are you passing to it?
16:46 jnthn (depends :-))
16:46 colomon a Regex::Match
16:46 jnthn try __IP
16:48 colomon P is Perl 6 object ?
16:49 colomon Wynne:rakudo colomon$ ./perl6
16:49 colomon Null PMC access in invoke()
16:49 colomon current instr.: '' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)
16:49 colomon called from Sub 'perl6;Perl6;Compiler;main' pc 182260 (src/gen/perl6-actions.pir:10418)
16:49 colomon I'll take it as indicating there is some sort of issue with that patch.  :)
16:50 jnthn P as in PMC
16:50 colomon multi method Bool() { ?(pir::istrue__IP(self)); }
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16:50 colomon does that seem horribly wrong?
16:51 colomon (that's for class Regex::Match)
16:51 TimToady didn't matches get completely re-implemented for nqp-rx?
16:52 jnthn Yeah, I'm not totally sure exactly what the correct incantation is there.
16:52 TimToady if so, ng is likely going to store the success somewhere else
16:52 TimToady but maybe not
16:52 colomon Actually, just saying  augment class Regex::Match { } was enough to get that crash.
16:52 jnthn Oh
16:53 jnthn That...could point to a different issue.
16:53 jnthn I know the classes-in-nested-namespaces tests fail.
16:53 __rnddim__ joined #perl6
16:53 jnthn Sadly, I got a long-ish phone call to take now, but I've done most of my @other-task today, so can look at that this evening.
16:53 colomon danke.
16:56 colomon Wow, could ng be getting Regex::Match from NQP?
16:56 jnthn colomon: Possible, maybe even likely.
16:56 colomon There's no implementation for it at all as far as I can see in ng.
16:56 jnthn Actually, yeah, it would I guess.
16:56 colomon $P0 = get_root_namespace ['parrot';'Regex';'Match']
16:56 colomon regexns.'add_namespace'('Match', $P0)
16:56 jnthn Well
16:57 jnthn Not from NQP as such
16:57 jnthn We need to load the regex library anyway
16:57 jnthn It's the same Match class used by user's regexes and the Perl 6 parser's.
16:58 colomon ack.
16:59 alester --thpppt
17:00 * jnthn -> phone, back in a bit
17:08 Ioet joined #perl6
17:09 Ioet DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0     DCC SE
17:09 masak er.
17:09 masak Ioet: please don't do that.
17:09 was kicked by jnthn: Ioet
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17:10 masak oh, and another thing: when will we be able to use non-strings as hash keys?
17:10 masak ...in Rakudo.
17:15 masak is the barrier for making that happen rooted in Parrot? is there a plan for overcoming it?
17:16 diakopter how would the keys be compared?
17:16 masak what's that got to do with anything? I want to store the entries, not sort them.
17:17 diakopter to compare for equality
17:17 diakopter for lookup.
17:17 masak ===, maybe?
17:17 diakopter why not ==
17:18 masak because that's numeric comparison.
17:18 masak ...which doesn't even work for strings.
17:18 diakopter sigh.
17:18 diakopter I don't see why == wouldn't be an alias to eq for strings.
17:19 masak then you disagree with a fundamental design feature of Perl 1..6.
17:19 diakopter newaze; .NET has IComparer and IComparable
17:19 PerlJam I would think eqv would be used.
17:20 masak weekend &
17:20 diakopter I didn't say I *disagreed* with it
17:20 revdiablo diakopter: == does numeric comparison, even on strings
17:20 diakopter I said I didn't see why.  not understanding a design decision is not the same as disagreeing with it.
17:21 diakopter in other words, parse the string as a number and then compare ==
17:22 revdiablo diakopter: Yes
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17:26 diakopter also, not understanding a feature is not the same as disagreeing with it.
17:26 colomon oh crap, in ng Regex::Match doesn't even come from Mu.
17:26 colomon ng: say Int ~~ Mu
17:26 p6eval ng 322d1c: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:27 colomon ng: say Regex::Match ~~ Mu
17:27 p6eval ng 322d1c: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:27 colomon liar!
17:27 colomon ng: say Regex;Match ~~ Mu
17:27 p6eval ng 322d1c: OUTPUT«Regex()␤Could not find non-existent sub &Match␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
17:27 colomon Method 'Bool' not found for invocant of class 'Regex;Match'
17:28 colomon but Mu.Bool is defined.
17:28 colomon ????
17:28 colomon Must stop thinking about this before I go insane...
17:29 PerlJam colomon: one is .ACCEPTS, the other is inheritance.
17:30 colomon PerlJam: Ah, good point.
17:31 PerlJam glad you understood me, because I was in no way prepared to explain myself ;)
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17:32 colomon :)
17:32 colomon I assume something must be using .ACCEPTS to cheat in this case.  :)
17:37 [particle] colomon: isn't the semicolon a pir thing?
17:37 colomon [particle]: probably so.
17:37 [particle] or have i been out of it so long that Regex;Match is valid p6?
17:38 colomon It's coming up in an error message I'm getting, but since it appears Regex::Match is done at some level below p6, it would make sense if that's a pir description of what is going on.
17:39 [particle] ng: say Regex::Match.Bool
17:39 p6eval ng 322d1c: OUTPUT«Method 'Bool' not found for invocant of class ''␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
17:39 [particle] er, duh
17:39 [particle] ng: my Regex::Match $a; say $a.Bool; # let's see if that works...
17:39 colomon [particle]: If Regex::Match had a working .Bool I wouldn't be getting this issue.  :)
17:39 p6eval ng 322d1c: OUTPUT«Method 'Bool' not found for invocant of class ''␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
17:40 [particle] ok, i saw the Regex;Match ~~ Mu and thought invalid perl 6!
17:40 [particle] didn't see the previous scrollback
17:40 colomon [particle]: and that was a good explanation for me.  :)
17:43 pmurias diakopter: the reason that == does numeric comparision on strings is that you don't have to care if something is a number or a string
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18:14 ash__ out of curiousity, does @*INC work in ng?
18:14 ash__ s/curiousity/curiosity/
18:16 diakopter ng: say @*INC[0]
18:16 p6eval ng 322d1c: OUTPUT«Can't postcircumfix:<[ ]> foreign objects yet.␤current instr.: '!postcircumfix:<[ ]>' pc 292523 (src/gen/core.pir:35417)␤»
18:17 diakopter xenophobe
18:20 ash__ ng: @*INC = [ ];
18:20 p6eval ng 322d1c: OUTPUT«sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤»
18:21 ash__ > @*INC= [];
18:21 ash__ Cannot assign to readonly value
18:21 ash__ is what I get locally
18:21 ash__ is there a reason thats readonly?
18:21 ash__ or just something that hasn't gotten fixed yet i suppose?
18:23 jnthn Just not fixed up yet.
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18:40 pugs_svn r29645 | lwall++ | [S03] be more specific about bitwise semantics
18:42 * colomon is suddenly worried about srand.   it seems like an not-at-all multithreading friendly approach...
18:44 TimToady I suspect the random state should be thread-local
18:44 TimToady each thread being implicitly sranded from the global random state
18:44 TimToady much like Perl 5 does with each process
18:45 TimToady then an explicit srand to start each thread can make a reproducable tree of possibilities
18:45 TimToady commuting &
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18:51 colomon TimToady++ # r29645
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19:41 * mberends just got Pugs working locally, but cannot exactly remember what it needed...
19:56 colomon mberends: time for the history command?
19:57 mberends heh, yes, and some defragging of my brane ;)
19:57 colomon oooo, brane defragging
19:59 * jnthn back, but needs to nom
20:01 jnthn After that will have an hour or two for Rakudo hacking :-)
20:01 jnthn Tomorrow is looking fairly free, so hoping to get plenty done.
20:02 mberends great.
20:05 jnthn Also I need to blog.
20:05 jnthn ah, nom smells done...eating, back soon. :-)
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20:31 ReturnVoid s1n?
20:34 cj TimToady: a friend told me you have a phd.  is he full of it? :)
20:34 cj alester: also.  your mother.
20:35 TimToady cj: yes :)
20:35 TimToady mind you, I've done the work for several PhD's by now... :)
20:36 ReturnVoid Does anyone know how I can get hold of s1n?
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20:39 alester cj: What about my mama?
20:41 cj alester: I should be helping you get that javascript thing into WWW::Mechanize
20:41 alester helping me?
20:41 alester I'm not putting it in mech
20:42 cj well, we were a while ago
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20:42 ash__ TimToady: if someone was interested in getting a PhD (i am in college still, about to start my masters) have any advice? :-D
20:44 alester You have a college still?  How do you hide it from the RAs in the dorm?
20:44 colomon alester: easy enough, just put it in the steam tunnels.
20:44 PerlJam ash__: don't do it!  ;)
20:44 alester Won't the D&D players find it then?
20:45 ash__ my D&D group never looks in tunnels
20:47 colomon neither did mine, but now that you mention it, I do think some D&D players tried larp in UMich's tunnels back in the 80s
20:47 colomon *to larp
20:48 ash__ in my most recent dark heresy game (its like D&D sorta) we always hit left legs. like 80%+ of our killing blows hit left legs, our DM has worked it into the story even
20:49 ReturnVoid Does anyone know s1n?
20:50 PerlJam ReturnVoid: why do you ask (repeatedly)?
20:51 mberends s1n last spoke here 2 weeks ago: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2010-01-22#i_1919694
20:52 mberends ReturnVoid: try this: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/search.pl​?channel=perl6&amp;nick=s1n&amp;q=
20:55 mathw ash__: in my current game of Godlike, we've got a penchant for shooting people in the right arm. Player characters, on the other hand, seem to get shot in the head.
20:56 ash__ that makes things difficult, like thinking i'd imagine
20:56 mathw yes
20:56 mathw I've lost three characters to head shot wounds
20:56 mathw it got to the point where the GM would say "So, shall I kill Matt today or next week?"
20:56 colomon ash__: wow, it's been decades since I've heard of a game that would actually track where characters are wounded like that.
20:57 ash__ in DH you don't die till you get under 0, once your under 0 every damage point has to be checked vs a table and it may or may not mean death, or dismemberment, usually in hallarious ways
20:58 mberends hmm, Pugs built from svn.pugscode.org source fails many spectests and seems to hang in S02-builtin_data_types/compact.t :-(
20:58 mathw we nearly had a dismemberment, but one of the PCs at the moment has miracle healing so that was averted
20:58 mathw ...just
20:58 mathw mberends: :(
20:59 ash__ mberends: has pugs's fudge been updated recently? i image the tests have been changing since pugs was last actively developed...
20:59 colomon ash__: for sure, that's got to be trouble by now.
20:59 colomon mathw: Actually had our first-ever PC death in my Star Wars game last month.
21:00 ReturnVoid Thanks mberends
21:01 colomon ash__: I mean, the spec has changed a lot in the last six months, and I don't think anyone thinks of Pugs fudging.
21:01 PerlJam colomon: especially since I don't think anyone runs pugs really
21:02 ash__ regularly?
21:02 ash__ pugs: say "i ran pugs!";
21:02 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«i ran pugs!␤»
21:02 * jnthn looks at the last few creenfuls of discussion and his eyes glaze over
21:02 ash__ :P
21:02 jnthn *screenfuls
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21:03 mberends mathw: that's probably part of the problem, the test suite may be becoming Rakudo-specific. Also, our pugscode repo source version is only 6.2.13.11, but Haskell cabal installs a Pugs 6.2.13.15, so maintenance is occurring elsewhere :-(
21:04 ash__ were is cabal getting pugs from?
21:05 ash__ i know that haskell has cabal but i have no idea how it works...
21:06 colomon I got the impression Audrey was doing just enough maintenance to get Pugs working with each Haskell (GHC?) update?
21:07 colomon I'd be very happy if someone was actually furthering Pugs development, but I sure don't know how to do it...
21:17 diakopter jnthn: don't worry; my eyes glaze over nearly every time I backlog.
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21:55 TimToady I don't even have to backlog for my eyes to glaze over.
21:55 Tene pre-glazed eyes?  Delicious!
21:56 TimToady Gloria looks into my eyes and says "Honey!"
21:56 TimToady Actually, when she says that, it usually means I'm in trouble.
21:57 mathw That seems to be the general trend
21:58 mathw "Honey" + looking in the eyes => trouble
21:58 TimToady especially if she doesn't see me looking back out them
21:59 Tene For me, "sweetie" + looking into my eyes => request for me to do something for her.
21:59 mathw what if she looks in there and sees something that starts "module Larry;"
21:59 TimToady you really, really don't want to be called "sweetie pie" around here...
22:00 TimToady it's a bit like when your mother uses your middle name
22:00 mathw Or worse, all your names
22:01 TimToady what I meant...
22:01 mathw I don't have a middle name, so it was just surname that signalled trouble
22:02 TimToady if you ask a little kid what their middle name is, they don't usually know.
22:02 Tene My parents never did the "full name => trouble" thing.
22:02 TimToady but if you ask them what their mother calls them when she's mad, then they usually know.
22:04 TimToady I don't know that it's terribly universal, though, culturally speaking
22:04 TimToady or if it's just (some subset of) indo-europeans
22:04 mathw it's sporadic over here
22:04 mathw but it is known
22:04 mathw possibly from American TV, though
22:05 TimToady my impression as a USian is that we got it from the English
22:06 ash__ i am from the south, so people here get like 2 part first names + a middle, Sarah Jayne or Beverly Jean
22:06 mathw haha maybe you did
22:06 mathw maybe some of us then got it back from you
22:06 ash__ (those are first names)
22:06 TimToady whatever the appalachians do is probably closest to what the elizabethans did
22:08 TimToady actually, now it's sounding like something the Scots would come up with...
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22:33 ash__ jnthn: is your blog on jnthn.net?
22:35 jnthn ash__: I write about Perl 6 things at http://use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/journal/
22:35 jnthn ash__: The one on that site is more my personal blog. :-)
22:35 jnthn (I'm actually preparing a post for the Perl 6 one at the moment :-))
22:35 ash__ okay, cool
22:36 ash__ thanks
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22:47 akshay hi
23:00 jnthn I think p6l has convinced me to work on a Perl 6 Type System document.
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