IRC log for #perl6, 2010-05-16

Time	Nick	Message
00:00	plobsing	yes but, doesn't it cause access to @x[0] to run off to infinity?
00:01	diakopter	std: [:=] [:=] (my @x)
00:01	sorear	:= is a special form, not an operator
00:01	p6eval	std 30649: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
00:01	sorear	[:=] shouldn't parse
00:01	sorear	although lots of people disagree with me on this
00:02	sorear	maybe I could add := to soreakudo and tempt masak with SPECTESTS
00:02	lue	I don't see how it would work.
00:02	plobsing	soreakudo? you have a fork?
00:03	lue	I can see [+] and [-] of course, but not [:=]
00:07	lue	does [=] even work? It seems to me operators like = and := don't work well as a metaop.
00:09	plobsing	AFAIC, R= is just plain evil.
00:10	lue	russian reversal assignment? that does sound evil.
00:10	plobsing	rakudo: my $x = 1; my $y = 2; $x R= $y; say($x); say($y);
00:10	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«1␤1␤»
00:11	lue	(when I said metaop, I meant these guys: [+] [-])
00:11	plobsing	I thought R and Z were metaops too
00:11	lue	they are.
00:11	sorear	plobsing: not a fork-fork, but there's a huge backlog for patch review
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00:16	plobsing	sorear: does rakudo have a patch reviewer shortage?
00:21	sorear	plobsing: yes, circumstantially
00:21	sorear	the stuff I've been doing is almost entirely in the pmichaud bus zone
00:24	lue	afk (compiling blender)
00:26	sorear	I get the feeling STD_syntax_highlight was ported from Perl 4
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01:16	sorear	String::IRC-- making up custom names for every color
01:17	sorear	just follow conio.h, it's the standard
01:17	sorear	or curses
01:17	sorear	or RGBI bitfields
01:17	sorear	but not "olive", "maroon", "navy", "fuschia"
01:28	sorear	evalbot control version
01:28	p6eval	This is evalbot revision 30533
01:38		{shade} joined #perl6
01:41	pugssvn	r30650 \| lwall++ \| [CORE] add protos of operators
01:41	pugssvn	r30650 \| [STD] add operators to symbol tables as subs
01:41	pugssvn	r30650 \| [Cursor] canonicalize operator names in symbol table
01:46	pugssvn	r30651 \| sorear++ \| Add a mIRC color code backend to STD_syntax_highlight
01:52	eternaleye	(backlogging) cognominal: re signatures, you have to bind, not assign and I'm not sure how that works with a signature stored in a variable. Try `my $a, $b; :( $a, $b ) := ( 1, 2 )` - :() constructs a signature, := binds to it
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01:57	eternaleye	Hm, drake1 isn't here anymore. I was going to tell him about 'ls \| grep ... \| while read i' being much more reliable than 'for F in $(...)'
02:00	eternaleye	Though find -exec ... \; is better still
02:01	eternaleye	rakudo: my Int $a, Str $b; :( $a, $b ) := ( 1, 'Hi!' ); .say for $a, $b;
02:02	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "my Int $a,"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
02:02	eternaleye	rakudo: my $a, $b; :( $a, $b ) := ( 1, 'Hi!' ); .say for $a, $b;
02:02	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«Symbol '$b' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 152 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:108)␤»
02:02	eternaleye	rakudo: my ($a, $b); :( $a, $b ) := ( 1, 'Hi!' ); .say for $a, $b;
02:02	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«Any()␤Any()␤»
02:02	cognominal	eternaleye, thx, I will check out
02:02	eternaleye	alpha: my ($a, $b); :( $a, $b ) := ( 1, 'Hi!' ); .say for $a, $b;
02:02	p6eval	alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
02:02	eternaleye	Hmm
02:03	cognominal	:)
02:03	eternaleye	alpha: my ($a, $b) := ( 1, 'Hi!' ); .say for $a, $b;
02:03	p6eval	alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«rtype not set␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
02:03	eternaleye	rakudo: my ($a, $b) := ( 1, 'Hi!' ); .say for $a, $b;
02:03	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«1␤Hi!␤»
02:03	eternaleye	THERE we go!
02:03	eternaleye	('my' operates on a signature)
02:04	eternaleye	rakudo: my (Int $a, Str $b) := ( 1, 'Hi!' ); .say for $a, $b;
02:04	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«1␤Hi!␤»
02:04	eternaleye	rakudo: my (Int $a, Int $b) := ( 1, 'Hi!' ); .say for $a, $b;
02:04	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$b'; expected Int but got Str instead␤current instr.: '' pc 0 (EVAL_2:1)␤»
02:04	eternaleye	Tada!
02:05	cognominal	also I am not sure if $a := @b[1] should bind to the slot or to the container in the slot
02:05	eternaleye	rakudo: my (Int $a, Complex $b ( :$re, :$im ) ) := ( 1, 1 + 3i ); .say for $a, $re, $im;
02:05	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«1␤1␤3␤»
02:05	eternaleye	Unpacking is fun
02:06	cognominal	if I do @b[1] = 1 should it affect $a or not?
02:06	cognominal	I guess this is the most useful thing to do.
02:07	cognominal	otherwise the old @b[1] will still be (only) accessible thru $a.
02:08	cognominal	idle thinkings...
02:35	sorear	the behavior of $a := @b[1] is effectively forced from an implementator's perspective
02:36		constant joined #perl6
02:36		constant joined #perl6
02:37	cognominal	sorear, what do you mean?
02:37	sorear	rakudo: sub BIND($name, $reg is rw) { pir::store_dynamic_lex__vSP($name, $reg); }; my $x; my @y; BIND('$x', @y[1]); @y = <a b c>; say $x;
02:37	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«␤»
02:38	sorear	rakudo: sub BIND($name, $reg is rw) { pir::store_dynamic_lex__vSP($name, pir::find_lex__PS('$reg')); }; my $x; my @y; BIND('$x', @y[1]); @y = <a b c>; say $x;
02:38	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«␤»
02:38	sorear	not quite working.
02:38	cognominal	I am dizzy with these pir:: et Q:PIR...
02:39	sorear	:= is the essential binding operation
02:39	sorear	it is used, notionally, during signature binding
02:40	sorear	the rhs is any old value that can be passed to functions
02:40	cognominal	this is the only thing implemented so far in rakudo...
02:40	sorear	when you function(@foo[1]), the slot is lost
02:40	sorear	only the container is passed to function
02:40	sorear	so, for the rhs, the old meaningful usage is the container
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02:52	sorear	viv gives wrong output on unimplemented cases, interesting
02:58	pugssvn	r30652 \| lwall++ \| [Cursor] don't complain of uninit $*FATAL on supposition
02:58	TimToady	s/FATAL/FATALS/
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03:05	sorear	TimToady: Is there a list of what needs to be done with viv? Are there any good "stepping stone" inputs before I spend the 4:20 to process STD?
03:07	JimmyZ	std: eval "class Foo { }"
03:07	p6eval	std 30651: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 110m␤»
03:07	JimmyZ	rakudo: eval "class Foo { }"
03:07	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_string()␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
03:07	sorear	JimmyZ: std doesn't run code, so it can't see the runtime error in that line
03:07	sorear	{ is special in double-quoted strings now
03:08	sorear	you need to use 'class Foo { }'
03:08	JimmyZ	sorear: It's a bug?
03:08	sorear	rakudo: eval 'class Foo { }'
03:08	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: ( no output )
03:08	sorear	JimmyZ: There's a bug there, but it has nothing to do with classes or eval
03:09	sorear	rakudo: say "class Foo { 2 + 2 }"
03:09	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«class Foo 4␤»
03:09	JimmyZ	oh, I thought it was not a bug
03:09	sorear	{ XXX } interpolates Perl code
03:09	sorear	{ } should interpolate 'undef', but instead it crashes
03:09	sorear	known bug, I'm pretty sure
03:15	cognominal	also I see a point about signatures that does not appear in Perl6 (rakudo) grammar. If the methods metha and methb have the same signature (say $sig), I would like to declare them method metha $sig { ... } method methb $sig { }
03:16	cognominal	so as not to repeat the common signature.
03:16	cognominal	...more idel thoughts :)
03:23	TimToady	sorear: no, no list for viv
03:42	sorear	Can't call method "Str" on an undefined value at viv line 989
03:42	* sorear	tracks
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03:50	JimmyZ	phenny: help?
03:50	phenny	JimmyZ: Hi, I'm a bot. Say ".commands" to me in private for a list of my commands, or see http://inamidst.com/phenny/ for more general details. My owner is sbp.
03:51	JimmyZ	phenny tell moritz_ I sent a patch to RT #75114: Can't augment class Int
03:51	TimToady	sorear: def_module_name changed to longname, I think
03:56	sorear	yeah
03:56	sorear	I figured that much out... slow going but progress
03:56	sorear	that said I finally managed to read all the way through STD.pm6; correct highlighting helps a lot
03:57	sorear	I wish we had something like that for perl5/cursor :)
04:04	TimToady	well, we just have to rewrite it all in Perl 6 :)
04:04	TimToady	'course, for that, we need viv -5...
04:05	sorear	viv -5 ?
04:05	diakopter	emit_p5
04:05	* sorear	is hacking on viv
04:06	sorear	I wanted some p6 related stuff to work on; diakopter++ recommended viv
04:06	diakopter	finally I did something right ;)
04:07	diakopter	TimToady: note that viv can be read either as 6->5 or 5->4
04:07	TimToady	unfortunately I already did the easy bits :)
04:07	sorear	it depends on whether TimToady approves of random non-TimToady-mind-readers hacking viv
04:07	sorear	TimToady: that's ok. I only find hard things fun.
04:08	* diakopter	giggles at 5->4. I kill me.
04:08	TimToady	you want to take small chunks out STD.pm5 as produced by gimme5 and reproduce 'em with viv -5
04:09	* diakopter	thinks sorear seems like the reverse-engineering-is-the-best-game-ever sort
04:10	diakopter	sorear: does this mean you can produce an html colorized edition of STD.pm6?
04:10	sorear	diakopter: once we've figured out how to write a perl 5 deparser in viv, adding the perl 4 deparser will be relatively easy
04:10	sorear	then hook it up to STD_P5.pm6
04:10	pugssvn	r30653 \| lwall++ \| [STD] read user's mind on 'Str $toto'
04:10	TimToady	'course, Perl 4 didn't have closures...
04:11	sorear	diakopter: I already have an html colorized STD.pm6. However, it contains large amounts of obfuscated javascript and crashes firefox when I load it
04:11	diakopter	re: no closures; 'ts ok; I can write the framebuilder & trampoline-builder
04:11	sorear	why STD_syntax_highlight generates obfuscated javascript /at all/ is beyond me
04:11	diakopter	heh
04:11	diakopter	node collapsing/expanding I think
04:12	TimToady	I believe on mouseovers it puts the list of outer contexts
04:12	diakopter	I think it appears obfuscated b/c it's minified
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04:13	sorear	diakopter: the worst part is going to be memory management
04:13	sorear	Perl 4 has no garbage collector
04:14	sorear	foo = bar; # the old *foo glob-object is now a memory leak
04:14	diakopter	oh.
04:14	sorear	you'd have to write your own garbage collector
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04:14	sorear	you'd probably want to use inside-out objects for this
04:15	TimToady	well, Perl 5 doesn't exactly have a GC either
04:15	sorear	$node_types{$node_num} = 'additive';
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04:18	* sorear	needs to make a more detailed study of Perl 4 some time
04:19	sorear	I've been involved with the Perl scene since, uh, 5.005
04:20	pugssvn	r30654 \| sorear++ \| deflongname is just longname now
04:21	sorear	I think I'd like a less verbose form of VAST
04:21	TimToady	that would be useful
04:21	diakopter	nonvast
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04:33	diakopter	+v pugssvn
04:33	sorear	diakopter: /mode #perl6
04:33	* sorear	would do it himself, but this goodfornothing ISP keeps dropping my ops
04:33	diakopter	I know :P; I was hoping I could trigger TimToady's alias
04:34	diakopter	ooo it worked
04:34	sorear	+ooo/
04:35	diakopter	maybe your isp detects when you get ops
04:35	sorear	I think they just don't care
04:35	sorear	it's not like they have competitors
04:35	sorear	a far too common story in the US
04:36	TimToady	maybe they think you're tweeting :)
04:36	diakopter	US, the land of threat-of-force enforced geographic monopolies
04:36	sorear	TimToady: I don't think they've banned twitter yet.
04:36	diakopter	oh wait, that's everywhere.
04:37	sorear	they have dropped usenet, though
04:37	* diakopter	wonders what 'twit (v.)' once meant
04:38	diakopter	oh.
04:38	sorear	diakopter: onomatopoeia for birdsong
04:39	TimToady	as in twitterpated :)
04:40	sorear	hmm
04:41	sorear	lots of shared substructure
04:41	* sorear	can't read YAML
04:41	sorear	what does .: mean?
04:42	TimToady	key is actually '.'
04:42	TimToady	it's just the ordered nodes
04:42	TimToady	wanted a key name that couldn't be confused with the named keys
04:42	sorear	ordered nodes?
04:42	TimToady	array
04:43	sorear	what if there's more than one?
04:43	TimToady	there's only one ., but multiple entries are marked with -
04:43	sorear	.: &1 !!perl/hash:VAST::statementlist .:
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04:43	sorear	irssi--
04:43	sorear	what does it mean if there's a .: directly under .:
04:44	TimToady	I don't recall ever seeing that
04:44	TimToady	oh wait, it's indented more?
04:44	sorear	yes
04:44	TimToady	it's the first entrie in the oute r.
04:44	sorear	why isn't it - ?
04:45	* sorear	thinks yaml is overcomplicated, wants a simpler unambiguous notation for object graphs
04:47	TimToady	it's not too bad when you get used to it
04:50	* diakopter	worried I don't see the ambiguity
04:52	sorear	YAML is not unambiguous
04:52	sorear	the obvious simpler representations are
04:52	sorear	YAML's sin is complexity
04:53	sorear	the YAML spec is 200 pages
04:53	sorear	YAML has approximately the same expressive power as s-expressions
04:54	sorear	I modified viv to use Data::Dumper but Data::Dumper handles not-tree-like data structures badly
04:55	sorear	(by badly I mean not human readable)
04:55	TimToady	yes, I was trying to switch gimme5 to using DD yesterday but it fails
04:55	TimToady	utf8 problems
04:56	TimToady	not that yaml isn't without its share of utf8 problems too
04:56	diakopter	I don't know how DD would handle the cross-tree references
04:57	sorear	TimToady: would changing the default output format of viv to --concise break anything?
04:57	sorear	once I implement concise, of course :)
04:57	TimToady	I don't know
04:58	TimToady	nothing major that I'm aware of
04:58	* sorear	makes viv output much more readable by piping it through sed 's/ /: /g'
04:58	diakopter	mberends' vill parses the yaml output
05:00	sorear	Why do VAST nodes sometimes present in both numbers and names?
05:01	TimToady	std: Str $toto
05:01	p6eval	std 30654: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Bare type Str cannot declare $toto without a preceding scope declarator such as 'my' at /tmp/KG4sNTYATH line 1:␤------> Str ⏏$toto␤ expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ statement modifier loop␤Parse
05:01	p6eval	..failed␤FAI…
05:02	diakopter	std: sub Str foo () { };
05:02	TimToady	so you can reconstruct it in original order, or by semantics
05:02	p6eval	std 30654: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Malformed block at /tmp/2Cy6RwLkN1 line 1:␤------> sub Str ⏏foo () { };␤ expecting any of:␤ block␤ routine_def␤ trait␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 110m␤»
05:02	eternaleye	(re concise form of VAST) maybe call it DEEP?
05:03	eternaleye	That way we can say that the perl6 translator is DEEP and VAST
05:03	diakopter	or DISTANT (or FAR)
05:05	eternaleye	One of the reasons I like Perl(5\|6) so much is that there's a culture of humor. C++, Java - their cultures are so _plain_. In Perl, the language designer makes puns and those who write reference books are incorrigible :D
05:05	JimmyZ	s
05:05	diakopter	std: our sub Str foo () { };
05:05	p6eval	std 30654: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Malformed block at /tmp/KUwNY1wjPc line 1:␤------> our sub Str ⏏foo () { };␤ expecting any of:␤ block␤ routine_def␤ trait␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 110m␤»
05:06	diakopter	std: my sub Str foo () { };
05:06	p6eval	std 30654: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Malformed block at /tmp/QAdAIYB8Ca line 1:␤------> my sub Str ⏏foo () { };␤ expecting any of:␤ block␤ routine_def␤ trait␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 110m␤»
05:06	eternaleye	std: our Str sub foo () { };
05:06	p6eval	std 30654: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
05:06	diakopter	sigh
05:06	diakopter	in one neural network; out the same.
05:07	eternaleye	std: our sub foo (--> Str) { };
05:07	p6eval	std 30654: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
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05:09	diakopter	that much I remembered
05:09	diakopter	having implemented it
05:11	TimToady	well, the error is LTA
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05:32	sorear	TimToady: so, Cursor Matches have the parcel-nature?
05:33	sorear	unlike NQP Matches, which have only capture-nature
05:38	TimToady	mmm, no, they're more like captures; parcels don't do Hash
05:40	sorear	captures don't do putting-keys-in-order
05:50	TimToady	they do if they're really Matches and have to be able to return .chunks :)
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05:57	sorear	diakopter: I begin to beleive you
06:12	TimToady	just so you don't finish believing him :)
06:23	JimmyZ	std: my $a = 1; ++++$a = 5;
06:23	p6eval	std 30654: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 112m␤»
06:24	JimmyZ	rakudo: my $a = 1; ++++$a = 10; say $a;
06:24	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«10␤»
06:31	pugssvn	r30655 \| lwall++ \| [STD] properly diagnose typename between routine declarator and sub name
06:40	JimmyZ	nqp: my $a :=1; ++$a;
06:40	p6eval	nqp: ( no output )
06:40	JimmyZ	nqp: my $a :=1; $a++;
06:40	p6eval	nqp: ( no output )
06:42	JimmyZ	Where can I report NQP-rx bug?
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06:48	sorear	JimmyZ: it's still using the parrot tracket
06:48	sorear	JimmyZ: also, a lot of things that look like bugs in nqp aren't
06:49	sorear	nqp has a lot of the teco-nature - not really designed to be used by the public, so it's got a lot of rough edges, but it's simple and works well
06:50	TimToady	std: sub Str foo () { };
06:50		{shade} joined #perl6
06:50	p6eval	std 30654: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Malformed block at /tmp/HYebboMO6N line 1:␤------> sub Str ⏏foo () { };␤ expecting any of:␤ block␤ routine_def␤ trait␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 113m␤»
06:51	sorear	JimmyZ: what's the nqp bug here?
06:52	sorear	constants aren't. FORTRAN lives on
06:52	JimmyZ	nqp: my $a :=1; ++++$a;
06:52	p6eval	nqp: OUTPUT«The opcode 'inc' (inc<0>) was not found. Check the type and number of the arguments␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;evalpmc' pc 987 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:542)␤»
06:54	JimmyZ	nqp: my $a := 1; $a++++; say($a)
06:54	p6eval	nqp: OUTPUT«2␤»
06:54	JimmyZ	rakudo: my $a = 1; $a++++; say($a)
06:54	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly value␤current instr.: '&die' pc 17864 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:393)␤»
06:55	JimmyZ	sorear: mutil prefix or postfix ++/-- is wrong both in rakudo and nqp
07:04	sorear	mutil?
07:04	TimToady	std: sub Str foo () { };
07:04	p6eval	std 30655: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Return type Str is not allowed between 'sub' and 'foo'; please put it:␤ after the (missing) scope declarator but before the 'sub',␤ within the signature following the '-->' marker, or␤ as the argument of a 'returns' trait after the signature. at
07:04	p6eval	../t…
07:05	JimmyZ	rakudo: my $a = 1; ++++$a; say($a); # sorear: something like this
07:05	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«3␤»
07:06	JimmyZ	multi
07:06	sorear	I am not so sure; TimToady, is that a lvalue?
07:07	TimToady	++$a is an lvalue
07:08	TimToady	std: our multi Str foo () { };
07:08	p6eval	std 30655: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Return type Str is not allowed between 'multi' and 'foo'; please put it:␤ after the 'our' but before the 'multi',␤ within the signature following the '-->' marker, or␤ as the argument of a 'returns' trait after the signature. at /tmp/GLMKMrzc4s
07:08	p6eval	..lin…
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08:01	sorear	Would anyone kill me if I used UTF-8 line drawing characters in the output of --concise?
08:12	Gothmog_	depends on the locale, i assume ;)
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08:28		Su-Shee joined #perl6
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08:39	sorear	TimToady: $node->{"."} is a statementlist object? WTF?
08:39	sorear	I thought you said it was an array
08:39	sorear	I'm completely confused
08:41		snarkyboojum_ joined #perl6
08:43		XaeroOne joined #perl6
08:43	sorear	oh, I think I see
08:43	sorear	"." is all children (array if needed)
08:43	sorear	"foo" is all foo children (array if needed)
08:45	moritz_	good morning
08:45	phenny	moritz_: 03:52Z <JimmyZ> tell moritz_ I sent a patch to RT #75114: Can't augment class Int
08:51		Gothmog_ joined #perl6
08:54	isBEKaml	hello moritz_
08:55	moritz_	oh hai
08:57		k23z__ joined #perl6
08:59	* moritz_	updated u4x.perl6.org
09:00	* JimmyZ	couldn't open it
09:00	Su-Shee	"Forbidden"
09:02	isBEKaml	moritz_: no index file?
09:04	isBEKaml	moritz_: I noticed a small typo in render.pl just now. :21 s/pt/pts/
09:04	isBEKaml	this won't copy the style.css to output directory
09:05	* sorear	is loving 'use warnings FATAL => 'all'; use Carp::Always'
09:06	moritz_	isBEKaml: just noticed that, and fixed locally
09:06	pugssvn	r30656 \| moritz++ \| [u4x] correct path, warn if copy failed
09:07	Su-Shee	I've just read the single most mean spirited, angry blog posting ever. luckily, it's not the perl community. ;)
09:08	JimmyZ	I cou
09:08	moritz_	http://u4x.perl6.org/control-flow.html
09:08	Su-Shee	(we're so well off even with all the tension between 5 & 6... -> http://deepinanime.blogspot.co[…]iginal-copy.html)
09:08	Su-Shee	moritz_: works.
09:09	Su-Shee	moritz_: displays content. words can be read. code can be seen.
09:12	isBEKaml	moritz_: once this is all done, you can add the TPF message or licence notices at the bottom. I have left it off for the end, with a temporary place holder in green at the bottom. :)
09:14	moritz_	isBEKaml: can I put HTML into that message?
09:14		skangas joined #perl6
09:14	isBEKaml	moritz_: I think not. You can add the message in style.css. body:after
09:19	moritz_	isBEKaml++
09:19	pugssvn	r30657 \| moritz++ \| [u4x] license notice
09:19	pugssvn	r30658 \| moritz++ \| [u4x] rename scripts/ to web/
09:23	isBEKaml	moritz_: This is only the first cut. we still have some way to go. :)
09:23	sorear	It turns out that writing a good pretty printer for VAST is Harder Than It Sounds.
09:26	mberends	heh
09:28	moritz_	mberends++ # nice blog post about Rakudo performance measuring
09:28	sorear	is planet dead?
09:28	sorear	it thinks there's been nothing new in 5 days
09:34	isBEKaml	moritz_: have you found out a way out of =begin\|end tags in p6 pods?
09:35	sorear	abbreviated blocks?
09:36	moritz_	isBEKaml: wanted to wait for feedback from masak++ before I remove them
09:36	moritz_	sorear: maybe just no new blog entry - that happens
09:36	sorear	moritz_: where is mberends' blog and why isn't it on the planet?
09:38	moritz_	http://blogs.perl.org/users/ma[…]-performance.html
09:38	isBEKaml	moritz_: ok. Fixing up a minor typo and removing unnecessary style then.
09:39	pugssvn	r30659 \| svatsan++ \| Fixed minor typo and clean up style
09:39	moritz_	mberends: I think you should divide the tags on your post with a comma
09:40	moritz_	mberends: otherwise movable type thinks it's one tag 'perl6 rakudo'
09:43	mberends	will do, thanks moritz_
09:45	mberends	.oO( also got some ideas about how to add some aggregate stats to the bottom the JSON layout )
09:45		xinming joined #perl6
09:46	moritz_	sorear: it seems that blogs.perl.org doesn't offer a feed by tag, so it's not easy for planetsix to import all 'perl6' tagged posts
10:15		mikehh joined #perl6
10:22	pugssvn	r30660 \| sorear++ \| Draft of a concise printer for VAST. The code is awful and it has memory
10:22	pugssvn	r30660 \| issues on large inputs, but it works and the output is about 50% shorter.
10:22	pugssvn	r30660 \| It could be improved a good amount with feedback on what AST attributes are
10:22	pugssvn	r30660 \| actually unneccessary.
10:23	moritz_	sorear, isBEKaml: it would be nice if you started commit messages to the pugs repo with a short [foo] marker so that people know what subsystem you're committing to
10:24	sorear	ok
10:24	moritz_	in that case [viv] or so
10:24	isBEKaml	ok
10:33	sorear	after 10 minutes and 900 MB (but very good cache behavior - average CPU was 80%), ./viv -c STD.pm6 finished
10:33	sorear	producing 600,000 lines of output
10:34	* sorear	sees how to turn it into a streaming algorithm, which will help, but isn't important
10:35	sorear	the only reason you'd feed STD.pm6 into viv, other than stress testing, is to convert it into some machine-usable format
10:36	sorear	moritz_: who runs the perl6.org webserver?
10:36	sjohnson	sorear: i think Su-Shee does
10:41		pmurias joined #perl6
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10:58	* moritz_
11:01	moritz_	sorear: anything you want to put up on perl6.org?
11:07		kaare joined #perl6
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11:18		Nathariel joined #perl6
11:25	Su-Shee	sjohnson: no, I don't.
11:34		wknight8111 joined #perl6
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11:36	colomon	what can we do with enums at the moment?
11:37	* colomon	is looking at the enum Order and wondering...
11:43	colomon	enum Order (Increase => -1, Same => 0, Decrease => 1); say +Order::Increase
11:43	colomon	rakudo: enum Order (Increase => -1, Same => 0, Decrease => 1); say +Order::Increase
11:43	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«Can not find sub Order::Increase␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 15350 (src/builtins/Associative.pir:46)␤»
11:43	colomon	rakudo: enum Order (Increase => -1, Same => 0, Decrease => 1); say +Order::Increase
11:43	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«Can not find sub Order::Increase␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 15350 (src/builtins/Associative.pir:46)␤»
11:43	colomon	rakudo: enum Order (Increase => -1, Same => 0, Decrease => 1); enum Order (Increase => -1, Same => 0, Decrease => 1); say +Order::Increase
11:43	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«Contextual $*PKGDECL not found␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Grammar;add_my_name' pc 42458 (src/gen/perl6-grammar.pir:131)␤»
11:44	* colomon	is very confused.
11:44	colomon	locally, I get an error the first time I try that in the REPL, then it works....
11:48	colomon	and if I put it in Cool-str.pm, I get "Could not find sub !YOU_ARE_HERE"
11:48	moritz_	rakudo: enum A <b c d>; say c; say A::c
11:48	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«1␤Can not find sub A::c␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 15350 (src/builtins/Associative.pir:46)␤»
11:48	moritz_	the fully quallified form is NYI in rakudo
11:49	colomon	fully qualified?
11:49	moritz_	A::c vs. just c
11:49	colomon	> enum Order (Increase => -1, Same => 0, Decrease => 1); say +Order::Increase
11:49	colomon	-1
11:49	colomon	that's local, with stock Rakudo.
11:50	colomon	and let me emphasize that I get the YOU_ARE_HERE error just defining Order, I took away all uses of it and it still happens.
11:51	sjohnson	Su-Shee: oops :[
11:51	colomon	actually, here's a fresh full REPL run:
11:51	colomon	> enum Order (Increase => -1, Same => 0, Decrease => 1); say +Order::Increase
11:51	colomon	Can not find sub Order::Increase
11:51	colomon	> enum Order (Increase => -1, Same => 0, Decrease => 1); say +Order::Increase
11:51	colomon	-1
11:51	colomon	notice the two input lines are exactly the same.
11:51	colomon	afk # must make pancakes for wife
11:52	moritz_	you don't even need to define the enum the second time
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12:12	colomon	moritz_++ # good call on defining.
12:13	moritz_	I CAN HAZ A PATCH
12:13	moritz_	I'm just not sure if it's a good one
12:18	lisppaste3	moritz_ pasted "Enum patch for colomon++" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/99301
12:18	moritz_	colomon: please try if this makes any difference for you defining an enum in the setting
12:18	moritz_	you can apply it with git am $filename
12:26	colomon	back now
12:33	moritz_	it's kind of a shot in the dark, no idea if it's the right thing to do
12:35		Nathariel left #perl6
12:42	colomon	> enum Order (Increase => -1, Same => 0, Decrease => 1); say +Order::Increase
12:42	colomon	-1
12:42	colomon	seems to work from REPL, which I'm guessing you already knew.
12:43	moritz_	yes
12:43	colomon	(sorry, got distracted trying to figure out how to record a Newfoundland radio show tonight. Radioshift++)
12:43	moritz_	no problem
12:44	colomon	still get the Could not find sub !YOU_ARE_HERE error when I add the enum to the setting.
12:44	colomon	maybe it should be "our"?
12:44	moritz_	it's "our" by default
12:44	colomon	I'm thinking we should push you patch anyway, if it passes spectest -- it definitely seems to be an improvement.
12:45	colomon	"our" does not help.
12:45	colomon	any other notions?
12:49	* moritz_	takes a hard look at the enum code
12:49	colomon	my $result := (pir::find_sub_not_null__ps('!YOU_ARE_HERE'))($compiled);
12:49	colomon	seems likely to be the line generating the error.
12:49	moritz_	where is sub !YOU_ARE_HERE defined?
12:50	moritz_	not... in the setting maybe?
12:50	colomon	YOU_ARE_HERE.pm
12:50	moritz_	no wonder it can't be found
12:50	colomon	it's at the very end of core, isn't it?
12:50	moritz_	right
12:50	moritz_	and the problem is ...
12:51	moritz_	if I understand correctly, that line executes the enum body in the context of the setting
12:51	moritz_	so
12:51	moritz_	by definition, an enum in the setting isn't going to work
12:52	moritz_	possible solution: do an ordinarly lookup of !YOU_ARE_HERE
12:52	moritz_	if it succeeds, we're in "ordinary" compilation phase
12:53	moritz_	if not, we're in the setting, and need to not use YOU_ARE_HERE
12:53	colomon	sounds reasonable, I guess.
12:53	colomon	I'm fuzzy on why YOU_ARE_HERE is involved at all in the first place.
12:54	moritz_	iiuc, it's the sub that executes code in the context of the setting
12:55	colomon	so the point (here) is to execute $compiled in the context of the setting?
12:56	colomon	and if we're in the setting, we want to execute it in the context of.... ?
12:56	moritz_	of the stage0 compiler
12:57	moritz_	ie just run it
12:57	moritz_	and don't have any access to the rest of the setting
12:58	colomon	do you have an idea how to code that?
12:59	moritz_	I'm trying, but I'm getting "rtype not set" errors
12:59	colomon	can you paste your code?
12:59	moritz_	just a sec...
13:00	moritz_	colomon: http://nopaste.snit.ch/20569
13:01	moritz_	ah
13:01	* moritz_	stupid
13:01	moritz_	I should actually use a named enum
13:01	colomon	?
13:02	moritz_	+my %h = enum (Increase => -1, Same => 0, Decrease => 1);
13:02	moritz_	that's an anonymous enum
13:02	colomon	which is a different section of code, yes?
13:02	moritz_	yes
13:02	moritz_	Actions.pm around line 1364, if $<name> { ... }
13:03	moritz_	need to make lunch now, will try to get back hacking after that
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13:42	moritz_	rakudo: Q:PIR { get_hll_global('YOU_ARE_HERE') }
13:42	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«The opcode 'get_hll_global' (get_hll_global<0>) was not found. Check the type and number of the arguments␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;evalpmc' pc 987 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:542)␤»
13:43	moritz_	rakudo: my $s = Q:PIR { %r = get_hll_global 'YOU_ARE_HERE' }; $s({ say "OH HAI" })
13:43	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in can()␤current instr.: '&infix:<=>' pc 17523 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:205)␤»
13:43	moritz_	rakudo: my $s = Q:PIR { %r = get_hll_global '!YOU_ARE_HERE' }; $s({ say "OH HAI" })
13:43	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«Method 'set_outer' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: '!YOU_ARE_HERE' pc 378031 (src/gen/core.pir:29492)␤»
13:43	moritz_	rakudo: my $s = Q:PIR { %r = get_hll_global '!YOU_ARE_HERE' }; say "alive"; $s({ say "OH HAI" })
13:43	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«alive␤Method 'set_outer' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: '!YOU_ARE_HERE' pc 378031 (src/gen/core.pir:29492)␤»
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13:44	colomon	moritz_: how can __p work as pir?
13:44	colomon	rtype is return type, maybe?
13:45	moritz_	I think "rtype not set" means I've tried to bind/assign to somthing that's not an rvalue
13:45	moritz_	erm
13:45	moritz_	not an lvalue
13:45	moritz_	or something
13:45	moritz_	no
13:46	colomon	isnull__p takes what and returns what?
13:46	moritz_	oh
13:47	moritz_	shouldbe just isnull()
13:47	moritz_	and find_sub seems to wrong
13:47	moritz_	I'm using get_hll_global now
13:48	slavik	I figured out reflection in java ...
13:51	moritz_	colomon: we're in for trouble...
13:52	moritz_	colomon: I've kinda made my patch work... except that prefix:<-> and Pair.value are defined in the setting
13:53	moritz_	colomon: so there's no way to execute the enum outside the context of the setting :(
13:53	pugssvn	r30661 \| svatsan++ \| [u4x] Added more styles towards u4x.perl6.org
13:53	colomon	oh, noes.
13:54	moritz_	well
13:54	moritz_	we could work around that
13:54	moritz_	with getattribute
13:55	colomon	afk for a few, but keep typing, I'll be back soon...
13:56	isBEKaml	hi slavik
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14:05	snarkyboojum	how do you do a negated character class in Perl 6?
14:06	colomon	moritz_: did you mean prefix:<~> and Pair.key?
14:06	colomon	or am I not seeing somewhere the code is being used?
14:06	colomon	(or is that => -1 that is the problem?-
14:06	colomon	)
14:07	snarkyboojum	something like <-[blah]> ?
14:08	colomon	yes
14:08	colomon	(he says after a quick spec search...)
14:09	snarkyboojum	colomon: thanks - maybe my eyes are too blurry, but I couldn't find it clearly in the spec :\|
14:09	colomon	"A leading - indicates a complemented character class"
14:09	colomon	example is <-[a..z_]>
14:10	snarkyboojum	colomon: doh, and then the tests show the way :) cheers.
14:10	colomon	you had it right in the first place, you just didn't know you did.... :)
14:10	snarkyboojum	colomon: must be something else I'm doing then :)
14:11	slavik	hi isBEKaml
14:12	slavik	perl's reflection > java's reflection
14:13	isBEKaml	slavik: don't know. never tried perl's reflection, perl6' is more intuitive imo :)
14:13	slavik	haven't tried that :P what does it look like?
14:13	slavik	in Perl, they are just hashes ;)
14:13	isBEKaml	slavik: object.WHAT, .HOW, .WHERE and so on.. :)
14:14	isBEKaml	slavik: oh, you're referring to dispatch tables?? I never thought of them as reflection, specifically.
14:14	slavik	aren't they part of reflection? as in: load this thing, find out what methods it has, call one of them.
14:15	isBEKaml	slavik: that's the .HOW
14:17	isBEKaml	slavik: if my reading of the spec is right, (S02?), it says that every class has a way of returning a metaclass instance that gives information about the class.
14:17	isBEKaml	rakudo: say Str.HOW.methods(Str);
14:17	p6eval	rakudo 92508d:
14:17	p6eval	..OUTPUT«IntpredlBoolsuccNumWHICHperlsStrACCEPTSdefroundsqrtasinsplitcoshexpmatchacoshwordssigncotanatan2lcfirstseccislogsamecasesprintfcapitalizesinflipp5choplcsubstacosechacotanabschompindexceilingcotanhunpolarcombtrim-trailingatanordacosevalchoptanhatanhcoseccharsrootsucucfirsttansubstrl…
14:18	slavik	ooh, nice
14:19	isBEKaml	slavik: Still, p5's got it a lot simpler than java and p6 just made it more intuitive.
14:20	slavik	I def agree :)
14:23	snarkyboojum	or you can do a shortcut
14:24	snarkyboojum	rakudo: say Str.^methods
14:24	p6eval	rakudo 92508d:
14:24	p6eval	..OUTPUT«StrACCEPTSdefpredIntlBoolsuccNumsWHICHperlrootsucfirstsamecasetanlog10coscapitalizebytesfmtflipp5choplcasinhNumericacotanchrcotanhacotanhcombfloorasechatanacosroundevalchoptanhsplitexpmatchacoshwordscotanatan2lcfirstucseccislogsubstrsprintfsinacosecsubstsinhcosechacosechabschompind…
14:24	isBEKaml	snarkyboojum++
14:24	isBEKaml	I didn't know that...
14:25	snarkyboojum	read it in one of jnthn++'s blog posts
14:25	isBEKaml	link?
14:25	snarkyboojum	rakudo: say Str.^methods(:local)
14:25	p6eval	rakudo 92508d: OUTPUT«WHICHperlsStrACCEPTSdefpredIntlBoolsuccNum␤»
14:26	snarkyboojum	isBEKaml: will try and find it
14:27	moritz_	http://use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/journal/ somewhere there
14:28	snarkyboojum	isBEKaml: http://use.perl.org/~JonathanW[…]ton/journal/39455
14:28		rgrau joined #perl6
14:28	isBEKaml	snarkyboojum: danke! :)
14:29	moritz_	colomon: noway - enums are of type EnumMap, and that's defined in the setting
14:29	snarkyboojum	isBEKaml: welcome!
14:29	colomon	bother
14:29	colomon	seems like a major issue there....
14:29	moritz_	colomon: so... either rewrite EnumMap in PIR
14:29	moritz_	or we need a two-stage setting
14:30	moritz_	or something entirely more clever
14:30	moritz_	rewriting EnumMap in PIR doesn't look that hard
14:32	moritz_	either way, I'd like to talk to pmichaud\|jnthn first
14:33	dalek	rakudo: 32150d5 \| (Martin Berends)++ \| src/Perl6/Module/Loader.pm:
14:33	dalek	rakudo: [Perl6/Module/Loader.pm] when a 'use' or 'need' cannot find a module, just say
14:33	dalek	rakudo: so and exit with doing an unnecessary stack trace.
14:33	dalek	rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakud[…]3a9880a69eed10ef9
14:33		JimmyZ joined #perl6
14:34	lisppaste3	moritz_ pasted "enums in the setting - I got so far only" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/99307
14:34	moritz_	colomon: current state as a patch
14:35	pmichaud	good morning, #perl6
14:35	moritz_	good morning pmichaud
14:36	mberends	hello pmichaud
14:36		kfo_ joined #perl6
14:41	sorear	hello pmichaud
14:41	sorear	moritz_: Properly syntax-highlighted versions of STD.pm6 and the spectests
14:42	moritz_	sorear: so, what do you need? an account on the box?
14:43	sorear	moritz_: Not sure. I was thinking I could, maybe, get away with power of suggestion + fixing the syntax highlighter
14:43	moritz_	sorear: I prefer actions to suggestions :-)
14:44	moritz_	I'm running far too much for the Perl 6 infrastructure alone, and would welcome anybody to take up responsibility for some corners
14:46	sorear	well, then, sure, an account on the box would be a fine solution. what other responsibilities on the box do you need releived?
14:47	moritz_	install a security update now and then (Debian)
14:47	moritz_	add a virtual host when somebody needs it
14:51	moritz_	sorear: welcome to feather2; most web stuff runs under my user account currently, so feel free to do sudo su - moritz
14:51	moritz_	sorear: I plan to migrate each web presence to a separate UNIX user though
14:52	moritz_	so one for perl6.org, one for proto.perl6.org etc.
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14:56	sorear	I don't know why, but there's something very pleasing about having ps -e fit on one screen
14:58	colomon	moritz_: sorry to disappear on you there, was watching a video with my boy, and didn't have the second screen hooked up to the laptop.
14:58	sorear	woah, only 1.2GB used?
14:58	sorear	moritz_: do you have any tips for setting up small system images?
14:58	colomon	moritz_: do you think that patch is worthwhile, or a dead end?
14:58	sorear	the FreeBSD 7 image I'm using for portability testing is a manual "minimum full development system" and it's >4G
14:58	moritz_	colomon: that depends on the way forward... converting EnumMap to PIR might be a viable option
14:59	moritz_	sorear: something like grml? or DamnSmallLinux?
14:59	moritz_	sorear: but I don't really know... I avoid sysadmin tasks if possible :-)
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15:13	sorear	pmichaud: any updates on topic/lexical-persistence-2?
15:14	pmichaud	sorear: still catching up on other backlogged items, sorry
15:14	sorear	no problem
15:14	pmichaud	I have another task you could potentially work on, since you're a bit familiar with HLL::Compiler now... :-)
15:14		rgrau joined #perl6
15:15	pmichaud	I'd really like to see --target=pbc work.
15:18	pmichaud	according to jnthn++, all we really have to do is print the resulting Eval PMC object to a file.
15:18	pmichaud	the only "tricky" part is getting 'pbc' into the targets list properly
15:18	pmichaud	(and it's not really that tricky)
15:18	sorear	I think I could pull that off
15:18	sorear	It would involve making stages something more than a simple list
15:18	sorear	more of a DAG
15:19	pmichaud	well, it's often been my intention that stages should be a dag
15:19	pmichaud	just never got around to it
15:19	sorear	actually, a tree - a stage can't have >1 predeccessor
15:19	pmichaud	oh, I suspect it could
15:20	pmichaud	but I'm not necessarily asking for a long solution in this case, I'd be willing to live with a shortcut :-)
15:20	pmichaud	we could do it with the existing linear stage by just adding a 'pbc' stage and having it do nothing if target != 'pbc'
15:21	pmichaud	there's also a fair bit of leeway for changes here -- the PCT staging mechanism is already deprecated in Parrot so that we can change it as needed
15:21	pmichaud	(indeed, I deprecated it precisely because I wanted to do something a bit different)
15:22	sorear	I'll have to fix my code that relies on it then
15:22	pmichaud	anyway, we could simplify a lot of build scripts if --target=pbc were added somehow
15:22	pmichaud	and that's a project I'm not likely to get to anytime soon, myself
15:25	moritz_	pmichaud: how are context sensitive PAST nodes coming?
15:26	sorear	pmichaud: Why does PCT::HLLCompiler bail in a test harness?
15:26	sorear	Also, it doesn't work. prove -e parrot-nqp works fie.
15:27	cognominal	hi, what is environmenet variable specifying where to search PBCs in parrot?
15:27	sorear	LD_LIBRARY_PATH
15:27	sorear	erm
15:27	sorear	probably not
15:28	cognominal	will try it
15:28	pmichaud	sorear: I don't understand "bail in a test harness"
15:29	pmichaud	cognominal: I'm not sure that there is an environment variable for searching PBCs.
15:29	pmichaud	there is an option to parrot for it, however.
15:29	sorear	pmichaud: PCT/HLLCompilir.pir +806
15:29	cognominal	that's ok
15:29	pmichaud	moritz_: I'm just blocking on time -- few things going on around the house. I also have to figure out what to call the nodes. PAST::???
15:30	moritz_	ContextCond?
15:31	pmichaud	sorear: oh, that
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: 4e9b9f4 \| pmichaud++ \| build/gen_setting.pl:
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: Add "#! nqp" marker and generation note to beginning of nqp-setting.nqp .
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx[…]f6f59a842d9365755
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: e76a952 \| pmichaud++ \| build/Makefile.in:
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: Rename nqp-setting.pm to nqp-setting.nqp .
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx[…]3bde7b54fdfc46ef9
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: 3397f77 \| pmichaud++ \| src/stage0/ (4 files):
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: Update bootstrap.
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx[…]3bf9d9921c77688e8
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: 44e68e4 \| pmichaud++ \| (2 files):
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: More cleaning up for nqp-setting.pm -> nqp-setting.nqp .
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx[…]4b7d2d9095f5e5f3c
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: 136d1b6 \| pmichaud++ \| src/stage0/ (3 files):
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: Update bootstrap.
15:31	dalek	nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx[…]0c5dc4f7afd03a6be
15:31	pugssvn	r30662 \| svatsan++ \| [u4x docs] Clean up [code] style and remove new line trouble in glossary
15:32	pmichaud	earlier versions of p5's Test::Harness (i.e., 2.64) have this nasty habit of always passing a command line option to the underlying program to set @INC
15:32	isBEKaml	moritz_: I have added necessary styles. Please try that out and let me know if you need more. I'm open to suggestions. :)
15:32	pmichaud	and, of course, the hll programs have no clue what to do with that option
15:33	pmichaud	(because these other languages don't have an @INC)
15:33	pmichaud	so, we put in the workaround to always ignore that option for now.
15:33	pmichaud	I can update the note to indicate that it's 2.64 and earlier that gives the problem
15:36	moritz_	isBEKaml: looks nice, thanks
15:37	pmichaud	oh, I remember now.
15:38	pmichaud	Test::Harness wanted to know the underlying interpreter's idea of @INC, so it would run the interpreter once asking for @INC before it actually ran the test script.
15:38	pmichaud	that works if your underlying interpreter is Perl 5, but fails miserably otherwise
15:44	pmichaud	moritz_: I plan to add the context-sensitive past nodes today sometime. Have some errands to run over the next 2-3 hours, but the remainder of the day after that is open for hacking (afaik)
15:45	moritz_	pmichaud: great. If tehre's anything I can do to help you, feel free to ask
15:46	moritz_	(except when it's writing English that's free of spelling errors :-)
15:47	pmichaud	moritz_: there are days when I could really use some help with that aslo.
15:48	moritz_	:-)
15:50		agentzh joined #perl6
15:50	sorear	3.02: - Made @INC propagation more compatible with 2.64. Was breaking Parrot's test suite.
15:52		snarkyboojum joined #perl6
15:54		patrickas joined #perl6
16:00		japhb joined #perl6
16:01	sorear	# Avoid using -l for the benefit of Perl 6
16:03		xomas_ joined #perl6
16:06	sorear	it seems as though 'modern' versions of Test::Harness don't run the program named in -e to get @INC
16:06	sorear	I'm currently trying to quantify 'modern'
16:10		am0c joined #perl6
16:17	moritz_	rakudo: say 2 !eq 2
16:17	p6eval	rakudo 32150d: OUTPUT«0␤»
16:17	pmichaud	sorear: yes, but there are a few distributions out there that still come bundled with 2.64.
16:17	pmichaud	Ubuntu 9.10, for example, comes with 2.64.
16:18	pmichaud	So, I suspect it'll be a while before we can avoid the need for the workaround.
16:18	pmichaud	afk for a while, errands
16:21	isBEKaml	moritz_: I'm bad with imaging. So didn't add images into the web pages. Plus, you could still turn this fledgling stuff into this week's task. Consolidate the converted pages into a single page for navigation. Bonus points using perl. :)
16:21	isBEKaml	moritz_: I'm thinking of templating. How hard is it in perl?
16:21	moritz_	isBEKaml: not hard at all
16:22	moritz_	isBEKaml: http://search.cpan.org/~samtre[…]e-2.9/Template.pm that's what I've used for proto.perl6.org
16:23	isBEKaml	moritz_: wow, nice. I don't know how, the first thing that came to mind was TT. Was that for the web?
16:23	moritz_	TT is an alternative
16:23	moritz_	but IMHO we don't need a Turing complete templating language for something that simple
16:26	isBEKaml	moritz_: hmm, I could learn about HTML::Template and try it out locally. :)
16:33	moritz_	rakudo: say 'aa' leg 'a'
16:33	p6eval	rakudo 32150d: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:33	moritz_	rakudo: say 'a' lt 'aa'
16:33	p6eval	rakudo 32150d: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:43	slavik	leg?
16:43	moritz_	less-than, equal, greater
16:43	slavik	<=> ???
16:44	moritz_	yes
16:44	moritz_	but for strings
16:44	slavik	why not cmp?
16:44	moritz_	because cmp is now a more generic comparison
16:44	slavik	oh, I see
16:44	sorear	moritz_: how do you spell the generic boolean relationals?
16:45	moritz_	which relationals?
16:45	dalek	book: f9eeb51 \| moritz++ \| src/operators.pod:
16:45	dalek	book: [ops] string comparison
16:45	dalek	book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/c[…]429c7539f26284295
16:53	patrickas	std:'test'.match(/(\W & <-[\.]>)/);
16:53	moritz_	std: 'test'.match(/(\W & <-[\.]>)/);
16:53	p6eval	std 30662: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 115m␤»
16:55	patrickas	thanks :-)
16:55	patrickas	rakudo: 'test'.match(/(\W & <-[\.]>)/);
16:55	p6eval	rakudo 32150d: OUTPUT«Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 11␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1696 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/Regex-s0.pir:932)␤»
16:55	moritz_	rakudo: / a & b/
16:55	p6eval	rakudo 32150d: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "/ a & b/"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
16:57	patrickas	rakudo: / a \& b/
16:57	p6eval	rakudo 32150d: ( no output )
16:57	isBEKaml	what does the <-[\. ]> mean? not all these characters between [ ] ?
16:57	moritz_	"any character except the dot"
16:57	isBEKaml	and the space.
16:58	isBEKaml	[^\. ] ?
16:58	moritz_	I don't think whitespace is significant in character classes
16:58	patrickas	actually this is taken straight from http://github.com/carlins/http[…]ib/HTTP/Client.pm
16:58	moritz_	neither is the dot, so no reason to escape it
16:58	isBEKaml	aren't all characters in square brackets taken literally? we don't need to escape regex spl characters right?
16:59	moritz_	isBEKaml: unless you want to put a ] into a char class...
16:59	patrickas	I could not get the module it to work using rakudo so I wated to mae sure if it was a rakudo bug or a HTTP::Client bug
16:59	moritz_	alpha: / a & b /
16:59	p6eval	alpha 30e0ed: ( no output )
16:59	* moritz_	wonders if alpha actually implemented it
17:00	patrickas	that was a messed up sentence I typed!
17:00	moritz_	alpha: for <a b 0> { say $_, ?($_ ~~ /a & \w/) }
17:00	p6eval	alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«a1␤b0␤00␤»
17:00	moritz_	seems it did
17:00	pmichaud	the characters -, ], and whitespace have to be escaped
17:00	moritz_	and - just for catching Perl 5 errors, right?
17:00	pmichaud	correct.
17:00	isBEKaml	- ? range operator?
17:00	isBEKaml	A-Za-z
17:01	pmichaud	the range operator is ..
17:01	moritz_	notaynmore range operator
17:02	pmichaud	A..Za..z
17:02	pmichaud	of course, you really want to be using <?alpha> :-P
17:03	isBEKaml	if that's not the case, i'd go with POSIXy :alpha:
17:03	pmichaud	that doesn't exist in p6
17:03	pmichaud	more to the point, the way to write :alpha: is <alpha> :-P
17:04	pmichaud	oh, and backslash has to be escaped :-)
17:04	isBEKaml	So, p6 isn't POSIX compliant. :P
17:05	moritz_	if you want POSIX, use C :-)
17:05	isBEKaml	I don't use C a lot these days. Still many languages are stuck in a PCRE limbo. :)
17:05	arnsholt	IIRC <alpha> is anything defined by Unicode as an alpha
17:06	arnsholt	Which I'd argue is the correct semantics =)
17:07	sorear	isBEKaml: perl 6 regexes are a complete redesign, they have no compatibility whatsoever with POSIX regexes
17:07	sorear	though, perl 6 will probably support rx:POSIX// at some point
17:07	sorear	by analogy with rx:P5//
17:08	isBEKaml	sorear: I got that. I was referring to other languages stuck with PCRE regex implementations while P6 is pushing the envelope without looking to maintain status quo. :)
17:09	isBEKaml	Really, you want to be starting afresh...
17:10	pmichaud	okay, really afk now
17:10	isBEKaml	Does this still work? [^{list of characters to avoid}] ?
17:11	sorear	no
17:11	sorear	you want <-[aeiou]>
17:13	isBEKaml	rakudo: for <1 b 0 -> { say "$_ +" ~ ?($_ ~~ /<alpha>/) }
17:13	p6eval	rakudo 32150d: OUTPUT«1 +0␤b +1␤0 +0␤- +0␤»
17:14	isBEKaml	hm, not bad..
17:14	isBEKaml	we don't need to mark special character cases for unicode classes, right?
17:16	isBEKaml	Doesn't seem to be needed, I guess. Case in point: \s matches even unicode white space character.
17:18	isBEKaml	rakudo: for <1 b 0 -> { say "$_ +" ~ ?($_ ~~ /<-[<alpha>]>/) }
17:18	p6eval	rakudo 32150d: OUTPUT«1 +1␤b +1␤0 +1␤- +1␤»
17:22		justatheory joined #perl6
17:26	sorear	TimToady: [viv] Why did you choose to make the default emit_p5 behavior for leaf nodes unaltered passthrough instead of carping?
17:26		slavik joined #perl6
17:32	pugssvn	r30663 \| sorear++ \| [viv] package_def needs to strip adverbs
17:33	* isBEKaml	gonna hit the bed. have a good one, #perl6!
17:34		iblechbot joined #perl6
17:38		_buno_ joined #perl6
17:39		pmurias joined #perl6
18:18	pugssvn	r30664 \| sorear++ \| [viv] Handle nested packages, packages with curlies
18:30	sorear	TimToady: Why does gimme5 use YAML?
18:31	sorear	.u 23cf
18:31	phenny	U+23CF EJECT SYMBOL (⏏)
18:34		Jedai joined #perl6
18:37	pmurias	sorear: what should it use instead of YAML?
18:39	sorear	pmurias: that's not the question
18:39	sorear	why is gimme5 sending data structures at all
18:41		[circuitbreaker] joined #perl6
18:41	pmurias	it uses the data structure for LTM
18:41	sorear	how?
18:42	pmurias	it keeps the AST of the rule so that it can calculate the lexers
18:42	pmurias	my knowledge how it does that is outdated and incomplete so i would have to look at the source again to tell you more
18:47	pmurias	sorear: the stuff in lex/ is generated at run time
18:52	sorear	How does the stash concept work? It seems as though even lexpads are stashes.
18:55	pmurias	STD seems to use for looking up variable/function/... names
18:55	pmurias	s/use/use them/
18:56	pmurias	and both lex pads and packages store them
19:15	sorear	what's xact?
19:26	moritz_	"exact"?
19:30	dalek	rakudo: 87e0e1b \| moritz++ \| src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
19:30	dalek	rakudo: enable calling a fully qualified enum key
19:30	dalek	rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakud[…]a88f8b49a8ff1f629
20:05	Su-Shee	in terms of programming language design - what are "true iterators"?
20:14	patrickas	rakudo: say (map { .WHAT } , ("foo"=> "bar" , "bas"=>"qux" ));
20:14	p6eval	rakudo 32150d: OUTPUT«Pair()Pair()␤»
20:14	patrickas	rakudo: say (map { .WHAT } , {"foo"=> "bar" , "bas"=>"qux" });
20:14	p6eval	rakudo 32150d: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
20:15	patrickas	is that by design ? or is it a bug ?
20:15		g00s joined #perl6
20:17	patrickas	rakudo: my %h = ("foo"=> "bar" , "bas"=>"qux" );say (map { .WHAT } , %h);
20:17	p6eval	rakudo 32150d: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
20:18		Heame joined #perl6
20:19		Heame left #perl6
20:31	sorear	pmichaud: TimToady: diakopter: If type constraints in Perl6-subsets are just constraints, not coercions, then how does Callable[:(Int, Int --> Int)] avoid Rice?
20:33	lue	Saluton!
20:34	lue	Just wondering: how's it going on importing libraries from other languages?
20:38	sorear	mildew and rakudo support is
20:48		g00s left #perl6
20:49		molaf joined #perl6
21:02		quietfanatic joined #perl6
21:11	jnthn	sorear: Rioe?
21:11	jnthn	*Rice?
21:16	patrickas	i understand "slurp" is now a built in in perl6, is the opposite also built in?
21:18	jnthn	patrickas: I don't think so.
21:18	jnthn	.oO( is the opposite going to be called "spit"? )
21:18	bkeeler	spew
21:18	patrickas	jnthn: thnx, i usually use spew
21:18	bkeeler	which I saw was added to nqp as a builtin
21:18	jnthn	lol
21:19	jnthn	That's...disgusting, but so is spit.
21:20	mathw	"Eeeww".spew($filehandle);
21:21	patrickas	filehandle or filename ?
21:21	Su-Shee	well throwing errors isn't really much more pleasant ;)
21:21	mathw	patrickas: well you could do either of course :)
21:21	mathw	but you probably shouldn't
21:21	mathw	Su-Shee: yes maybe we should replace 'die' with 'puke'
21:21		masak joined #perl6
21:21	masak	loliminmoscow!
21:21	phenny	masak: 15 May 10:06Z <moritz_> ask masak if there's any tool that used the =begin glossary marker in docs/u4x/documentation - if not I'd like to remove it, because then it happens to be valid perl 5 POD, and easier for me to process :-)
21:22	masak	moritz_: no, no tool. feel free.
21:22	Su-Shee	finally a real do what I mean and say what I really think language!
21:22	patrickas	mathw: the whole point is not to bother opeining files and working with filehandles for quick one lineers
21:22	bkeeler	Heyas comrade masak!
21:22	masak	bkeeler: privet.
21:24	jnthn	masak!!
21:24	masak	jnthn!!1
21:24	jnthn	masak: Did any bushes greet you in Moscow yet?
21:25	bkeeler	privet bushes in particular?
21:25	jnthn	Those are privet hedges.
21:25	jnthn	;-)
21:25	jnthn	masak: How is it?
21:25	bkeeler	Never throw the letter "Q" into a privet bush
21:25	masak	I'm still thinking about those privet bushes...
21:25	masak	;)
21:26	jnthn	:-)
21:26	masak	it's good. the subway was quite OK. the room could fit five of me.
21:26	jnthn	Ain't the subway stations majestic? :-)
21:26	masak	I mean, it could sleep five of me. comfortably.
21:26	masak	(it's big)
21:26	jnthn	Wow.
21:26	jnthn	That's a nice thing.
21:27	* jnthn	also had a quite big one too
21:27	masak	as journeys go, the trip here was uneventful.
21:27	masak	but they made sure to scrub me hard at the passport control.
21:28	jnthn	?
21:28	masak	well,
21:28	masak	first I was in this line to the actual passport control.
21:28	jnthn	Odd, they just look at me boredly, stamp my visa and I'm done. :-/
21:28	masak	that took an hour. quite a bottleneck, that passport control.
21:28	jnthn	Ouch. :-(
21:28	jnthn	Depends how many other flights are coming in at the same time I guess.
21:28	masak	and when I finally got to the counter, it turned out I was missing a form.
21:28	patrickas	since the channel is alive again I will re ask my earlier question :-)
21:29	patrickas	rakudo: my %h = ("foo"=> "bar" , "bas"=>"qux" );say (map { .WHAT } , %h);
21:29	jnthn	masak: Oh?
21:29	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
21:29	jnthn	masak: Ouch...they didn't give them out on the plane?
21:29	masak	jnthn: yah, a "migration form". they didn't give me one.
21:29	patrickas	is that expected ? or should there be two Pairs() ?
21:29	jnthn	masak: Oh :-(
21:29	masak	that would have been a good idea, though.
21:29	jnthn	masak: Well, yeah, every time I've flown they have done that. :-\|
21:29	* jnthn	is a tad mystified that they didn't. :-(
21:30	pmichaud	hello, all
21:30	masak	so I had to fill it out, and get in line again.
21:30	bkeeler	Heyas pmichaud
21:30	jnthn	That sucks.
21:30	masak	hi, pmichaud
21:30	jnthn	hi pmichaud!
21:30	masak	and then I got scowled at, in Russian, for not filling in the form properly ;)
21:30	jnthn	...grr.
21:30	masak	oh well.
21:30	jnthn	Russian scowls are quite unique, huh. :-)
21:30	masak	I'm here now. \o/
21:30	jnthn	\o/
21:30	jnthn	Did you have any борщ yet? :-)
21:31	masak	no, but good idea for tomorrow.
21:31	* jnthn	figures that's more likely than водка
21:31	masak	da.
21:31	masak	today, the cafes had closed when I got to the hotel.
21:31	jnthn	:-(
21:31	jnthn	You find something to nom on anyways?
21:31	masak	so I'm currently eating some funny spongy thing and drinking yoghurt :)
21:32	jnthn	:-)
21:32	* jnthn	recommends finding some proper борщ tomorrow. With сметана. :-)
21:33	masak	mmmm.
21:33	masak	I will.
21:33	jnthn	Indeed. :-)
21:33	pmichaud	patrickas: it's a bug in rakudo at the moment -- hashes don't flatten properly in list context
21:33	bkeeler	Try some птичье молоко
21:33	pmichaud	at least, I think that's the case.
21:34	masak	bkeeler: pigeon milk?
21:34	jnthn	bkeeler: wtf?
21:34	jnthn	:-)
21:34	* jnthn	googles...
21:34	bkeeler	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptasie_mleczko
21:34	jnthn	oh
21:34	patrickas	pmichaud: thanks. I am finding many rough edges trying my first perl6 program so expect lots of noob questions
21:35	jnthn	Yes, that looks rather more appertizing than...pigeon.
21:35	jnthn	Literal translation FTF.
21:35	bkeeler	hehe
21:36	quietfanatic	Hm. Now that 'undef' is gone, how do I smartmatch undefined things?
21:36	jnthn	Nice etymology too!
21:36	jnthn	Cute. :-)
21:36	quietfanatic	$val ~~ Mu matches everything
21:36	pmichaud	quietfanatic: $val ~~ .notdef # iirc
21:36	lue	olol masak! [compiling blender, not paying attention]
21:36	quietfanatic	That's defined things though, not undefined things...
21:37	pmichaud	I don't understand the question, then.
21:37	quietfanatic	Hm.
21:37	masak	today's aphorism: 'Если смотреть трезво на вещи, то невольно хочется выпить.'
21:37	quietfanatic	Wait no it isn't
21:37	quietfanatic	just a sec
21:37	masak	'Looking at things soberly, one cannot help wanting to drink.'
21:37	masak	no, .notdef went away.
21:37	quietfanatic	rakudo: say (3 ~~ .notdef)
21:37	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:37	quietfanatic	rakudo: say (Int ~~ .notdef)
21:37	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:38	quietfanatic	seems to always return true.
21:38	masak	but Rakudo still implements it :)
21:38	quietfanatic	rakudo: say (.notdef)
21:38	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:38	pmichaud	what took .notdef's place, if anything?
21:38	quietfanatic	Yeah, I don't think $x ~~ .method_call works that way, does it?
21:38	quietfanatic	It's call the method on $_
21:38	quietfanatic	*It'd
21:38	jnthn	masak: I likes that one. :-)
21:38	masak	pmichaud: um. don't recall.
21:38	pmichaud	at one point, ~~ .methodcall would invoke the method on the left argument
21:38	masak	jnthn: thought you might :)
21:39		Sarten-X joined #perl6
21:39	pmichaud	I don't know if that's still true -- apparently some things have changed recently.
21:39	masak	it's still true.
21:39	quietfanatic	Basically my question is, I used to have 'if $thing ~~ undef \| /regex/'
21:39	jnthn	pmichaud: It should do that.
21:39	masak	but .notdef is gone from spec.
21:39	jnthn	pmichaud: It did in alpha.
21:39	quietfanatic	How do I do that now?
21:39	pmichaud	Any .foo method truth ?X i.e. ?.foo
21:39	jnthn	pmichaud: Didn't get the syntactic cases of smarthmatch added back yet though.
21:40	lue	maybe if $thing ~~ Mu
21:40	pmichaud	$thing is always Mu, though
21:40	quietfanatic	Everything ~~ Mu
21:40	pmichaud	that's a type check, not a definedness check
21:40	lue	Ah.
21:40	pmichaud	maybe $thing !~ .defined
21:40	jnthn	!~~
21:40	jnthn	Yeah
21:40	jnthn	I think there's another way though
21:40	quietfanatic	But then it doesn't junction with my regex.
21:40	jnthn	that works out well in given/when cases
21:40	* jnthn	tries to remember
21:41	masak	oh wait. seems .notdef is very much still in the spec. :/
21:41	masak	S32/Basics.
21:41	quietfanatic	Any:U doesn't parse.
21:41	jnthn	oh
21:41	jnthn	Any !.defined undefined not .defined
21:41	jnthn	(from S03)
21:41	jnthn	std: "blah" ~~ !.defined
21:41	p6eval	std 30664: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 115m␤»
21:41	pmichaud	I'm not sure how to handle !.defined
21:41	jnthn	rakudo: "blah" ~~ !.defined
21:41	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: ( no output )
21:41	pmichaud	we do that... syntactically?
21:41	jnthn	...I...have no idea.
21:41	quietfanatic	How on earth does that work?
21:42	jnthn	oh
21:42	jnthn	pmichaud: It is in the syntactic section of S03.
21:42	jnthn	The first section contains privileged syntax; if a match can be done
21:42	jnthn	via one of those entries, it will be. These special syntaxes are
21:42	jnthn	dispatched by their form rather than their type.
21:42	jnthn	And it's in that first section.
21:42	jnthn	So I guess it's...uglily syntactic.
21:43	pmichaud	what about something like $x ~~ .foo * 2
21:43	quietfanatic	But that requires special syntax. I'm guessing I can't do $x ~~ !.defined \| /regex/ with that.
21:43	pmichaud	is .foo referring to $x or to the outer $_ ?
21:43	pmichaud	because the rhs isn't .foo, it's (.foo * 2)
21:43	jnthn	pmichaud: I suspect $_ then... :-/
21:44	jnthn	pmichaud: Which is I guess why I find making !.foo work a bit ugly.
21:44	pmichaud	I find it all a bit ugly, tbh
21:44	jnthn	pmichaud: I can't see anything in S03 that calls out ~~ .foo * 2 being special.
21:44	pmichaud	right
21:44	masak	so... we have both .notdef and !.defined ...?
21:44	jnthn	I wasn't a fan of .notdef, but I'm even less of a fan of this way.
21:44	pmichaud	so it's kind of weird that !.foo would be special
21:44	quietfanatic	rakudo: class Undefined { method ^ACCEPTS ($thing) {!$thing.defined} }; say 3 ~~ Undefined; say Int ~~ Undefined;
21:44	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«0␤0␤»
21:45	quietfanatic	rakudo: class Undefined { method ACCEPTS ($thing) {!$thing.defined} }; say 3 ~~ Undefined.new; say Int ~~ Undefined.new;
21:45	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«0␤1␤»
21:45	pmichaud	I mean, ~.foo and +.foo and ?.foo aren't special
21:45	quietfanatic	There we go :D
21:45	jnthn	pmichaud: Aye.
21:45	masak	quietfanatic: !
21:45	* pmichaud	shuts his eyes and hopes the !.defined thing magically goes away
21:46	masak	things have disappeared before at the blink of an eye :P
21:46	quietfanatic	rakudo: class Undefined { method ACCEPTS ($thing) {!$thing.defined} }; say 3 ~~ Undefined.new \| 3
21:46	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:46	pmichaud	either that, or that we decide that ~~ rebinds $_ for its rhs operand
21:46	diakopter	rakudo: say !(.defined)
21:46	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:46	pmichaud	(whatever it may be)
21:46	quietfanatic	rakudo: say 3 ~~ :!defined
21:46	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«0␤»
21:46	quietfanatic	rakudo: say Int ~~ :!defined
21:46	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:46	quietfanatic	Found it.
21:47	jnthn	oh, cute.
21:47	pmichaud	i.e., thunkify the rhs operand
21:47	quietfanatic	using :pair syntax, which transforms into a method call
21:47	jnthn	:-)
21:47	jnthn	quietfanatic++
21:47	pmichaud	oh, I like that
21:47	quietfanatic	I suppose it was intended for filetests. I.E. file ~~ :e
21:47	pmichaud	I like that so much I want to get rid of .defined :-)
21:47	* masak	takes a shower
21:47	pmichaud	and just use :defined instead
21:47	jnthn	OK, with that in mind...let's kill kill kill !.defined
21:47	jnthn	;-)
21:47	quietfanatic	rakudo: say 3 ~~ :!defined \| 3
21:47	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:48	jnthn	pmichaud: :defined desugars to a call to .defined, fwiw
21:48	masak	huh. there's a tub. it's right there, next to the bidet. didn't notice it before. :)
21:48	jnthn	masak: Wow. You do have a nice room. :-)
21:48	quietfanatic	It's equivalent to -> {.defined == 1}
21:48	diakopter	masak: LOL
21:49	quietfanatic	or -> {.defined == 0} if you have a !
21:49	pmichaud	jnthn: oh.
21:49	pmichaud	so that's syntactic also?
21:49	jnthn	pmichaud: Gah, I mis-spoke
21:49	jnthn	pmichaud: No, it calls Pair.ACCEPTS
21:49	quietfanatic	(I may be misusing that -> though)
21:49	pmichaud	right
21:49	jnthn	pmichaud: Which then in turn calls .defined
21:49	pmichaud	right
21:49	pmichaud	oh
21:49	pmichaud	so it only worked for .defined
21:49	pmichaud	or no?
21:49	jnthn	pmichaud: No, it works for any method
21:49	quietfanatic	It works for anything
21:50	pmichaud	right
21:50	pmichaud	so we could get rid of the icky .defined syntax and substitute pair syntax?
21:50	quietfanatic	rakudo: 5 ~~ :say
21:50	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«5␤»
21:50	jnthn	pmichaud: You mean, remove the smart-match syntactic special cases?
21:50	pmichaud	not all of them, just that one
21:50	jnthn	pmichaud: Or at least the .foo one?
21:50	jnthn	Ah, OK
21:50	jnthn	I think we could
21:50	jnthn	I don't mind that one too much though
21:51	jnthn	It's the !.defined that gives me the really uneasy feeling.
21:51	pmichaud	because it really bugs me that $X ~~ .foo * 2 doesn't do the same as given $X { when .foo * 2 { true }; false }
21:51	jnthn	Oh, ouch.
21:51	jnthn	You're right.
21:51	pmichaud	I don't like that $_ gets treated specially for only the case of the rhs being a lone method call
21:52	* jnthn	starts to be won over to pmichaud++'s POV.
21:52	quietfanatic	I agree, this special syntax is quite unnecessary.
21:53	pmichaud	or, alternatively, I'd like to somehow make it clear that the lhs is bound to $_ for the whole expression
21:54	quietfanatic	I'd prefer infix:<~~> stay more like an operator rather than a statement control.
21:54	diakopter	rakudo: 5 .~~ say
21:54	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "5 .~~ say"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
21:54	pmichaud	well, ~~ by definition is "special", at least traditionally
21:54	pmichaud	that's what the "smart" part of "smart match" is supposed to mean :-)
21:54	jnthn	Aye, though it's mostly special in its dispatchyness rather than its thunkiness.
21:55	jnthn	.oO( I use i and y totally inconsistently in English now... )
21:55	pmichaud	jnthn: that ys okai, Englysh ys alwais adaptyng
21:56	pmichaud	at least I don't notice you putting extra vowels in words like "color" or "flavor" :-)
21:56	quietfanatic	flaiyvor
21:56	jnthn	You're just coloured by your parcitular flavour of English. :P
21:57	jnthn	*particular
21:57	pmichaud	(maybe you do that, and I just don't notice anymore after spending lots of time around aussies and nz'ers and brits and the like.)
21:57	jnthn	pmichaud: I generally write whatever the spell checker I'm working under wants, and if there is none I just type whatever. :-)
21:57	jnthn	color is shorter though. :-)
21:58	pmichaud	.oO( "type whatever" --> "color" and "flavor" ? )
21:58	pmichaud	or even just colr and flavr
21:59	diakopter	sorear: the Callable[:(Int, Int --> Int)] syntax is (hopefully) temporary (for annotating strongly-typed closures) until TimToady specs something better. I'm hoping for &:(Int, Int --> Int)
21:59	quietfanatic	色
22:01	masak	quietfanatic: SE4 - color?
22:02	masak	I'd like to propose ˈcolɵrˈ
22:03	quietfanatic	masak: 色 == color, though I don't know what SE4 means
22:03	quietfanatic	English-speakers usually just pronounce it colr.
22:03	spinclad	4: fourth tone?
22:03	masak	quietfanatic: it's the Mandarin pronunciation. I'm coming from the hanzi direction, while I guess you're kanji. ;)
22:04	jnthn	I kan zi that being a problem...
22:04		jhuni joined #perl6
22:04	quietfanatic	Indeed, I inputted it as "iro"
22:04	masak	I don't know the Cantonese pronunciation, unfortunately.
22:04	sorear	diakopter: &:() still has the Rice problems, unless it's doing something deceptively simple like only matching the signature
22:04		orafu joined #perl6
22:05	sorear	diakopter: is my &:(Int --> Int) &foo = * + 1; legal?
22:05	spinclad	Rice?
22:05	spinclad	my Rice $grain
22:05	masak	is it something about it being computationally hard to find equivalent siggies?
22:05	quietfanatic	If it's legal in a signature it ought to be legal in a my, which is parsed as a signature.
22:06	masak	quietfanatic: but not all things make sense in a my.
22:06	masak	quietfanatic: return type, for example.
22:06	quietfanatic	Well you can say my Int\|Str $x though
22:06	quietfanatic	like a junction type.
22:06	quietfanatic	std: my Int\|Str $x
22:06	p6eval	std 30664: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Malformed my at /tmp/CdrTqWaCbj line 1:␤------> my Int⏏\|Str $x␤ expecting any of:␤ multi_declarator␤ scoped declarator␤ typename␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 113m␤»
22:06	quietfanatic	maybe not
22:07	sorear	quietfanatic: type checking an arbitrary function against a signature reduces to the halting problem
22:07	sorear	spinclad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem
22:07	quietfanatic	...I'm afraid all this is a bit beyond me at this time
22:08	jnthn	quietfanatic: No, you can't do that in Perl 6.0.0.
22:08	jnthn	quietfanatic: Maybe some day :-)
22:08	diakopter	sorear: not yet
22:08	jnthn	quietfanatic: There's always subset Foo where Int\|Str;
22:08	quietfanatic	I guess so.
22:09	diakopter	sorear: (it's not yet legal, hence me saying TimToady hasn't specd it yet)
22:10	diakopter	masak: why wouldn't a return type make sense in a my?
22:11	masak	diakopter: because a my usually initializes variables. it doesn't return things, to my knowledge.
22:11	diakopter	er
22:12	diakopter	I was referring to a my variable that is initialized to a closure.
22:12	diakopter	initialized with a closure.
22:12	masak	ah. we're talking past each other, then.
22:12	diakopter	and that closure returns a particular type.
22:12	spinclad	(/me seems that the return type is the part that makes sense in a my: my Int &foo; as it's the covariant part of the signature)
22:12	masak	I meant `my ($a, $b --> Int)`
22:12	diakopter	I don't know what that is specd to mean :)
22:13	masak	std: my ($a, $b --> Int)
22:13	p6eval	std 30664: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 112m␤»
22:13	diakopter	I didn't doubt it parsed; I don't know what it means
22:13	masak	we're on the same page there :P
22:14	diakopter	k
22:15	diakopter	sorear: are you saying it follows from Rice's theorem that no programming language can have strongly typed function variables?
22:18	masak	seems it is saying that you can't tell in general whether a function is in a particular class of functions or not.
22:18	masak	I can see how that reduces to the Halting Problem, yes.
22:18	masak	but I'm not sure I see the full ramifications.
22:19	sorear	diakopter: no. I am saying that Perl 6, as it is currently designed, cannot
22:19	sorear	but that can change.
22:19	quietfanatic	Because it doesn't do static analysis?
22:19		patspam joined #perl6
22:19	diakopter	how would/could it be changed?
22:20	quietfanatic	:) It's easy to see if something has the right signature--give it those arguments and check that it returns the right type.
22:21	masak	quietfanatic: if it returns.
22:21	quietfanatic	aw shoot :)
22:22	sorear	sub { return $_ % 2 ?? 'foo' : 2.0 }
22:22	masak	sorear: !!
22:22	sorear	right, right, of course
22:22	masak	but yes. what sorear said.
22:23	diakopter	since it's not annotated, it returns an Any, I thought
22:23	sorear	diakopter: the simplest way is to make signatures part of the typing of subs. I don't really like that the presence or absense of signatures changes things, but the options are worse
22:24	diakopter	sub { return $_ % 2 ?? 'foo' : 2.0 } is the same thing as sub (--> Any) { return $_ % 2 ?? 'foo' : 2.0 } , right?
22:24	dalek	book: 41c52f8 \| jonathan++ \| src/subs-n-sigs.pod:
22:24	dalek	book: Various bits of editing to the subs-n-sigs chapter.
22:24	dalek	book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/c[…]7aa3f0f5435119cc8
22:24	sorear	(Cursor still hurts my head)
22:24	sorear	diakopter: no, it's the same thing as sub (Any --> Any) {...
22:24	diakopter	ok
22:24	sorear	the case that really bothers me is * + 1
22:24	sorear	it's a WhateverCode with signature (Any --> Any)
22:25	diakopter	ok
22:25	sorear	should I be able to assign it to a variable typed as (Int --> Int)
22:25	sorear	?
22:25		kensanata joined #perl6
22:26	quietfanatic	Probably not.
22:26		kulp joined #perl6
22:26		kulp joined #perl6
22:26	spinclad	you should be able to assign it to a (Int --> Any), since then it just will only get fed Ints.
22:26	quietfanatic	You'd be able to assign an (Int --> Int) sub to a (Any --> Any) variable though
22:26	quietfanatic	or maybe not that either.
22:26	sorear	subtyping is easy
22:27	sorear	parametricity is harder
22:27	spinclad	quietfanatic: no, you can assign a (Any --> Int) to a (Int --> Any)
22:27	quietfanatic	Yeah, that's what it'd be.
22:27	sorear	covariance vs. contravariance
22:27	spinclad	that interpolates two (Int --> Any) noops
22:30	diakopter	luckily for me, such contravariance can be fixed up at compile-time by injecting a runtime type-check
22:30	sorear	diakopter: no, it can't, because Perl 6 type checks are Any --> Bool
22:31	sorear	not Any --> ::T\|Failure
22:31	diakopter	not a Perl 6 type check
22:31	diakopter	an underlying platform type check
22:31		szabgab joined #perl6
22:32	diakopter	(is what I was considering)
22:33	lue	.rnd( I tried searching for a simple sed one-liner to replace an error in many blender source files, and I get perl :) )
22:34	diakopter	I don't understand how Perl 6 type checks are Any --> Bool
22:34	diakopter	what does that mean
22:35	diakopter	(what is passed into the "Any" slot)
22:36	sorear	diakopter: the candidate
22:37	diakopter	where is the type passed in?
22:37	sorear	the type check is specific to the type
22:37	sorear	a perl 6 type check can't replace an object or wrap it in any way
22:37	sorear	it can only say "yes" or "no"
22:37	diakopter	what is a "Perl 6 type check"? is this a runtime object?
22:38	sorear	a Perl 6 type check is what happens when you say my TYPE $foo; $foo = VALUE;
22:39	diakopter	the "when" there is very confusing; I can't tell whether you mean compile time or runtime
22:39	sorear	runtime
22:39	diakopter	it can't be done at compile-time?
22:39	sorear	of course not; VALUE isn't known then
22:40	diakopter	why couldn't one know the type of VALUE?
22:40	sorear	because expressions don't have types, values do
22:41	sorear	you have to evaluate the expression before you can know its type
22:41	sorear	and the type can be different each time you evaluate it
22:41	sorear	I should have said $foo = EXPR;
22:41	diakopter	no EXPR can be typed?
22:41	jnthn	sorear: "a perl 6 type check can't replace an object or wrap it" - not quite true. :-)
22:42	jnthn	rakudo: subset Foo where -> $checked is rw { $checked = 42 };
22:42	jnthn	:-)
22:42	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: ( no output )
22:42	sorear	Wow.
22:43	diakopter	I don't see how no EXPR can ever be booed
22:43	diakopter	er
22:43	diakopter	typed
22:43	diakopter	heh
22:43	sorear	diakopter: the type of every expression is Mu
22:44	sorear	only variables can have more-specific types
22:44	diakopter	that is dumb
22:44	jnthn	rakudo: subset Foo where -> $checked is rw { $checked = 42 }; my Foo $x = 100; say $x;
22:44	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly value␤current instr.: '&die' pc 17864 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:393)␤»
22:44	jnthn	D'oh. :-/
22:44	jnthn	oh, it's probably right.
22:44	jnthn	It's trying to assign to the 100 :-)
22:44	jnthn	Anyway, don't do that. ;-)
22:45	jnthn	rakudo: subset Foo where -> $checked is rw { $checked = 42 }; my $y = 100; my Foo $x = $y; say $x; say $y;
22:45	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly value␤current instr.: '&die' pc 17864 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:393)␤»
22:45	jnthn	Hmpfh.
22:51	dalek	book: 09a1f28 \| jonathan++ \| src/multi-dispatch.pod:
22:51	dalek	book: Example of multi-dispatch and nested signatures.
22:51	dalek	book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/c[…]28f707b8df857d626
22:51	dalek	book: 5d9cb15 \| jonathan++ \| src/subs-n-sigs.pod:
22:51	dalek	book: A little more editing for subs-n-sigs.
22:51	dalek	book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/c[…]d5427f33bd54a7674
22:58		Psyche^ joined #perl6
23:00		Targhan joined #perl6
23:02	Targhan	Hmmm so I'm running "perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot" on windows and one of the very first things it prints out is "The system cannot find the path specified." This seems kind of bad, but I have no idea what's missing. Any ideas?
23:02	bkeeler	pmichaud: still around?
23:02	sorear	"one of" is rarely ever good enough in programming circles
23:02	jnthn	Targhan: May not be a problem - if it then goes on to check out Parrot and build it.
23:02	sorear	if only we had the whole error
23:03	Targhan	okay fair enough
23:03	sorear	use http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6
23:03	sorear	oh
23:03	Targhan	well the actual crash line is:
23:03		snarkyboojum joined #perl6
23:03	Targhan	holy god, programmin in windows is terrible. I can't even copy from the cmd.exe window?
23:04	Targhan	one moment...
23:04	jnthn	Right click, Mark...
23:04	bkeeler	You have to turn on the facility
23:04	diakopter	there are two modes, quickedit and nonquickedit
23:04	diakopter	select with the left pointer, hit enter to copy
23:04	sorear	use http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6
23:05	BinGOs	I hear there is something called Console2 (http://sourceforge.net/projects/console/)
23:05	Targhan	I'm attempting to download powershell now, but I'll check that out too
23:06	diakopter	in quickedit mode, right click pastes and left click selects for copy
23:06	masak	g'night, people.
23:06	BinGOs	I found powershell to be heinously slow.
23:06	Targhan	ahh quick edit is the winner
23:07	bkeeler	phenny: tell pmichaud if you're in a reviewing mood, there's now a 'regex-interpolation' branch in nqp-rx
23:07	phenny	bkeeler: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
23:07	diakopter	I daresay "programming in windows is terrible" is not a fair claim
23:08	sorear	programming is terrible
23:08	diakopter	:)
23:08	bkeeler	Sounds perfectly fair to me
23:08	lisppaste3	Targhan pasted "windows build error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/99321
23:08	sorear	(programming in windows 95 is downright awful)
23:09	Targhan	it's windows xp at least
23:09	Targhan	anyway, I have MSVC installed and cl.exe is in my path
23:09	sorear	Targhan: do you have VC++ installed?
23:09	Targhan	as is nmake.exe
23:09	sorear	ah
23:09	Targhan	svn is also in path, and obviously perl
23:10	Targhan	anyway I'm digging through Configure.pl to see what the error means, but if someone has encountered it before, advice is appreciated.
23:10	jnthn	Targhan: In your parrot directory, there should be some file showing what the C ompiler actually outputted.
23:11	sorear	Targhan: since this is a Parrot failure, you may have better luck asking in #parrot
23:11	sorear	that said, the main Parrot Win32 dev is here and not there
23:11	Targhan	heh
23:11	jnthn	sorear: Oh?
23:11	diakopter	Targhan: is this activeperl or strawberryperl?
23:11	Targhan	The line between parrot and perl6 is still a bit fuzzy in my mind
23:11	Targhan	this is activeperl
23:11	Targhan	should I install strawberryperl?
23:12	jnthn	I've had more luck building Rakudo with Active Perl.
23:12	sorear	jnthn: You
23:12	Targhan	A previous google search turned up someone with a similar problem in September of last year, though he was using strawberry
23:12	diakopter	Targhan: 64-bit activeperl?
23:12	jnthn	sorear: Heh. I'm not all that active on Parrot dev nowadays. :P
23:12	Targhan	let me check the build
23:13	jnthn	Targhan: Mabye cd parrot and then perl Configure.pl --verbose may help (iirc)
23:13	jnthn	Or at least tell you a bit more.
23:13	Targhan	perl --version says v5.10.1 build for MSWin32-x86-multi-thread
23:13	Targhan	so 32 bit I guess
23:13	diakopter	yeah
23:13	diakopter	did you use the 64-bit msvc envvars shortcut or the 32-bit one
23:14	diakopter	oh, I guess you're on 32-bit xp...
23:14	Targhan	erm I don't know how to answer that question
23:14	Targhan	it's 32 bit xp
23:14	diakopter	how did you add cl to your path
23:14	Targhan	right clicked my computer -> properties
23:14	Targhan	advanced tab, edit environment variables
23:14	Targhan	added vc/bin directory to it
23:15	diakopter	(it's recommended to use the C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VCvcvarsall.bat
23:15	Targhan	configure --verbose is complaining about missing libraries though
23:15	diakopter	(it's recommended to use the C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\vcvarsall.bat
23:15	Targhan	which makes me think some linker paths are not setup
23:15	Targhan	let me check out that batch file
23:15	diakopter	or 8 or whichever visual studio version you have
23:16	Targhan	yeah
23:16	lisppaste3	Targhan annotated #99321 "parrot configure with verbose" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/99321#1
23:16	Targhan	But yeah I think it's an environment variable thing. looking at script now
23:20	diakopter	sorear: I don't understand how/why EXPR can never have a type other than Mu.
23:20	Targhan	hmmm
23:21	Targhan	so when I run vcvarsall from cmd, the parrot configure works
23:21	Targhan	Is there a less ghetto way of making that script always run than adding it to autoexec.bat?
23:21	diakopter	heh
23:22	Targhan	I guess I could take a diff of the environment variables and input them manually
23:22	diakopter	make a shortcut to "cmd.exe /k ""%path_to_vcvarsall%""" and run that instead
23:22	diakopter	instead of cmd.exe directly I mean
23:24	Targhan	looks like the autoexec.bat thing didn't work. Guess that's system startup only
23:24	diakopter	yeah
23:25	diakopter	actually autoexec.bat is ignored.
23:26	Targhan	Hmmm it's building an awful lot more stuff
23:26	Targhan	uh.. woo! Thank you, irc channel!
23:27	Targhan	just getting something compiled that can operate against unit tests will be great.
23:30	diakopter	does anyone else know why/how/whether no EXPR can be of a type other than Mu?
23:31	sorear	diakopter: that's the way dynamically typed languages work
23:31	jnthn	diakopter: I'm...kinda confused by the whole discussion.
23:31	diakopter	I thought Perl 6 was optionally dynamically typed.
23:31	sorear	javascript, perl5, etc are exactly the same way
23:31	diakopter	I thought Perl 6 enforced types when annotations were present.
23:31	diakopter	at compile time.
23:32	jnthn	I mean, if you have for example $a + $b and you statically know all the multi-candidates (which we often do) and you statically know the types of $a and $b, then certainly unless the multi candidates are "too interesting" you could at compile time determine what the type of the expression would be.
23:32	jnthn	diakopter: No, the enforcement may be at runtime.
23:33	jnthn	diakopter: There's no requirement to do it at compile time.
23:33	diakopter	right, ok
23:33	jnthn	diakopter: You can fail at compile time on antyhign that would fail at runtime.
23:33	jnthn	But if you can at compile time say "huh, that could never work out!", it's totally fine (and good) to fail at compile time.
23:33	sorear	However, if there's even the slightest chance of it working, you need the runtime check
23:35	jnthn	sorear: Aye, though there's likely pragma that will let you control what odds you're willing to accept.
23:35	sorear	rakudo: try { eval "use Nonexistant" }; say "Failed: $!"
23:35	p6eval	rakudo 87e0e1: OUTPUT«Unable to find module 'Nonexistant' in the @*INC directories.␤No exception handler and no message␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 15350 (src/builtins/Associative.pir:46)␤»
23:41	sorear	mberends recently changed rakudo to say; exit(1) instead of throwing an exception on module not found
23:42	sorear	I cannot say I am entirely happy with this
23:42	jnthn	That feels...dubious.
23:42	sorear	32150d5
23:45	diakopter	sorear: Perl 6 is not "dynamically typed" like Perl 5 and JavaScript.
23:47	jnthn	sorear: There's some papers on Gradual Typing which, if you didn't see them before, are quite interesting reading; the ideas are quite applicable to the Perl 6 view of typing.
23:53	diakopter	sorear: I'm trying to understand why you would give such a pedantic/condescending/smartass reply like "that's the way dynamically typed languages work". Were you trying to give me an overly-simplistic answer just so I'd stop asking the question?
23:55	sorear	No
23:55	sorear	I was trying to flush the root misunderstanding out
23:56	diakopter	okay, so my sensation of pedantry was correct.
23:56	jnthn	sorear: Yes, but if your understanding is/was that Perl 6 is entirely dynamically typed like Perl 5 and Javascript, then the misunderstanding is/was yours.
23:57		Chillance joined #perl6
23:57	sorear	jnthn: I never said his root misunderstanding
23:57	jnthn	:-)
23:57	sorear	If I'm wrong, I'd like to find out sooner rather than later.
23:57	sorear	Broad statements help that happen.
23:58	diakopter	:) hrm. to me, questions work better
23:58	diakopter	(esp when (as in this case, I respect your understanding a lot) the hearer respects the speaker)
23:59	TimToady	it's generally better to give each other the benefit of the doubt

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