Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-07-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:01 gabiruh joined #perl6
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00:17 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h }; say C.new(h=>'v').perl
00:17 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«C.new(h => "v")␤»
00:18 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h; method m() { say $.perl } }; C.new(h=>'v').m
00:18 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«C.new(h => "v")␤»
00:20 whee joined #perl6
00:20 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h; method m() { say $.perl } }; C().m
00:20 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &C␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/YzGyxeqMBj␤»
00:21 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h; method m() { say $.perl } }; C.m
00:21 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«C␤»
00:21 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h; method m() { say $.perl } }; C.m(:h('v'))
00:21 * jnthn -> sleep
00:21 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«C␤»
00:21 ingy nite jnthn!
00:22 whee is p6eval source available somewhere for running elsewhere?
00:22 ingy what is :foo() ?
00:24 ingy I'm wondering how to set :actions and :rule on a parser object before calling .parse()
00:25 Tene ingy: those are arguments to .parse
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00:48 ingy Tene: yeah I know... I was just wondering why they begin with ':'
00:49 Tene ingy: named arguments
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00:49 ingy ok
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00:49 Tene I wonder if you can use .assuming on methods...
00:50 sorear sure
00:50 sorear methods are just subs
00:51 sorear whee: the source is available, it's in misc/p6eval in the pugs repo
00:51 sorear whee: if you want to run it elsewhere, you probably will need help from moritz
00:51 ingy Tene: so is .parse a "class" method? or is there some instance?
00:52 sorear there's no difference in Perl 6
00:52 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h; method m() { say $.perl } }; C.new().m
00:52 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«C.new(h => Any)␤»
00:52 sorear every class is an instance of itself
00:52 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h; method m() { say $.perl } }; C.m
00:52 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«C␤»
00:53 whee sorear: that sounds like a challenge ;)
00:53 ingy is that a bug then?
00:53 sorear ingy: no
00:53 sorear C is a perfectly good instance of C
00:53 sorear you can call any method in class C on C itself
00:54 ingy why does it .perl different?
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00:54 Tene rakudo: my @a = 1..10; my &b = @a.pick.assuming(:repl); say &b(5).perl;
00:54 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Method 'assuming' not found for invocant of class 'Integer'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/__25n3Fn0W␤»
00:54 tylercurtis ingy: Because .perl generally gives you something you can eval to get the original.
00:54 PerlJam rakudo: class X {};  say X.WHAT; say X.perl
00:54 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«X()␤X␤»
00:55 ingy rakudo: class X {};  say X.WHAT; say X.perl; say X.new().perl
00:55 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«X()␤X␤X.new()␤»
00:56 ingy I'm not sure I get it, but it's no big deal
00:56 Tene ingy: the class object is an undefined prototype.  It has no storage, and therefore no attributes.
01:01 ingy Tene: so it's not really an object of itself?
01:02 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h; method m() { say $.perl } }; my $c = C; C.h = 3; say $c.perl
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01:02 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Type objects are abstract and have no attributes, but you tried to access $!h␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/chNB1qAqId␤»
01:02 ingy heh
01:02 PerlJam tylercurtis: use classify(~*) instead of classify({$_})  (golf is fun  :)
01:03 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h; method m() { say $.perl } }; my $c = C.new; C.h = 3; say $c.perl
01:03 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Type objects are abstract and have no attributes, but you tried to access $!h␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/BeWfs1vOSn␤»
01:03 ingy grr
01:03 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h; method m() { say $.perl } }; my $c = C; $c.h = 3; say $c.perl
01:03 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Type objects are abstract and have no attributes, but you tried to access $!h␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/xRfHrbaKa6␤»
01:03 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h; method m() { say $.perl } }; my $c = C.new; $c.h = 3; say $c.perl
01:03 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/qKlvdMyBh3␤»
01:03 Tene has $.h is rw;
01:04 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h is rw; method m() { say $.perl } }; my $c = C.new; $c.h = 3; say $c.perl
01:04 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«C.new(h => 3)␤»
01:04 Tene or initialize it, .new(:h(3))
01:04 ingy that's interesting
01:05 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h is rw; method m() { say $.perl } }; my $c = C.new(:h(3); say $c.perl
01:05 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
01:05 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h is rw; method m() { say $.perl } }; my $c = C.new(:h(3)); say $c.perl
01:05 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«C.new(h => 3)␤»
01:05 ingy rakudo: class C { has $.h is rw; method m() { say $.perl } }; my $c = C.new(h=>3); say $c.perl
01:05 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«C.new(h => 3)␤»
01:05 ingy => wins :P
01:06 * ingy golfs
01:10 tylercurtis PerlJam++
01:10 PerlJam tylercurtis: and I *think* that a bare slurp will do the same as slurp(@*ARGS || die)
01:11 PerlJam so, if you don't mind the slight semantic change ...
01:11 tylercurtis PerlJam: slurp() appears to require an argument.
01:14 Eddward Please forgive a stupid question, but what does 'PersonsName++' mean?  I'm guessing it's a compliment?
01:14 PerlJam Hmm.  I coulda sworn slurp was like lines
01:14 PerlJam Eddward: karma.  yes, it's a compliment.
01:15 tylercurtis karma PerlJam # presumably one of the bots keeps track of karma.
01:15 PerlJam yeah, but I never remember which one  :)
01:15 Eddward thanks, I was just wondering.
01:16 tylercurtis And I guess that's not the incantation to find out. :)
01:16 Eddward I've seen it in blog posts and other places too.
01:17 PerlJam dalek: karma pmichaud
01:17 PerlJam hugme: karma pmichaud
01:17 PerlJam oh well
01:18 tylercurtis PerlJam: it appears to be specced to slurp $*ARGFILES by default. multi slurp (IO $fh = $*ARGFILES, Bool :$bin = False, Str  :$enc = "Unicode", --> Str|Buf )
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01:24 * PerlJam &
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02:08 colomon anyone out there tried the new Math::Vector module?
02:08 colomon I want to know if it's reasonably put together before I churn out a couple more modules on the same model...
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02:16 snarkyboojum colomon: FYI it's not on modules.perl6.org because poc-projects.list is missing a comma before your Math-Vector
02:16 snarkyboojum (I'm guessing)
02:17 snarkyboojum (at the end of the temporal-utils line)
02:17 tylercurtis How would one go about getting a commit bit to pugssvn?
02:17 colomon snarkyboojum++
02:19 colomon just pushed the commas in the right places.
02:19 colomon tylercurtis: you would ask someone who already had one.
02:19 colomon presuming they remember how to do it.  :(
02:21 tylercurtis colomon: It's that simple?
02:21 * tylercurtis wants to write spectests for Path so he can try implementing it.
02:21 colomon pugssvn?  you bet.
02:21 colomon we give out commitbits at the drop of a hat.
02:21 colomon but I've not actually done it before, so it may take me a minute to figure out the procedure.
02:21 * perigrin drops a hat.
02:22 snarkyboojum colomon: awesome test suite on Math::Vector :)
02:22 colomon snarkyboojum: I didn't write it, it's from lastofthecarelessmen.blogspot.com/
02:23 snarkyboojum colomon: was just comparing those ;)
02:23 colomon He seems to have abandoned it, and I just ported what he had to the latest Rakudo and repackaged it as a standalone module.
02:23 snarkyboojum colomon: so is this a re-write?
02:23 snarkyboojum colomon: ah cool
02:23 colomon mostly it's a tweak.
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02:23 snarkyboojum colomon: is carlins around at all? because I've forked his HTTP::Client module as well
02:24 snarkyboojum or do I have two different people mixed up :)
02:24 colomon he had a whole bunch of semi-related stuff in the one Vector package, I'm trying to break it out and make the pieces stand alone.
02:24 colomon I haven't seen carlins any time recently.
02:24 snarkyboojum oops - I'm mixing people up
02:24 snarkyboojum colomon: sweet re breaking it out to a standalone bit
02:25 colomon tylercurtis: pm me your e-mail address and desired username and I'll add you to pugssvn.  (found the page and managed to log in.)
02:27 colomon snarkyboojum: does the Math::Vector package look okay to you?  If it seems reasonably put together, I can go back into SF's code and crank out Math::Polynomial as well.
02:28 colomon s/crank/break/
02:30 snarkyboojum colomon: only had a superficial look/play, but looks nice
02:30 tylercurtis colomon++
02:32 colomon tylercurtis:  just following au|irc++'s good example.
02:35 tylercurtis colomon: the link in the email was broken, but removing the port number seems to have worked. Who should I contact about that? au|irc?
02:36 colomon tylercurtis: I have no idea who maintains it now.  Seems unlikely to be au|irc, but she might know...
03:19 tylercurtis If I add a new spectest that probably isn't implemented yet by anyone, I should fudge it, right? For which implementations?
03:22 colomon rakudo for sure.
03:23 colomon I'm not sure if sorear's project is using the fudging system or not.
03:23 colomon I wouldn't worry about pugs, etc..
03:24 colomon (or perhaps more accurately, I don't worry about pugs, etc, and no one has complained yet.)
03:27 tylercurtis Thanks. For something like qp{foo} that isn't yet supported by the parser, is '#?rakudo: eval "Rakudo doesn't parse this yet."' the appropriate way to fudge it?
03:30 colomon I've always used #?rakudo skip "Rakudo doesn't parse this yet."
03:30 colomon I dont know eval at all.
03:30 colomon (in a fudging context)
03:32 colomon afk # bedtime
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03:52 colomon back # rocking toddler
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04:24 pugssvn r31844 | tcurtis++ | [t/spec] Start adding fudged(for Rakudo) Path tests.
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06:00 sorear aaaah bad net day
06:00 sorear colomon: here?
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06:40 moritz_ good morning
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06:46 moritz_ tylercurtis: just sent you another commitbit for pugscode, hadn't finished backlogging yet :-) - just ignore it
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06:47 tylercurtis moritz_: alright. :)
06:47 moritz_ tylercurtis: btw new test files don't need fudging - rakudo uses a whitelist to decide which tests to run
06:48 tylercurtis moritz_: I realized that after I committed it. I'll unfudge it when I work on it some more.
06:49 moritz_ great
06:50 sorear hello moritz
06:53 moritz_ hi sorear
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07:11 dalek niecza: 0fe5cb2 | sorear++ |  (3 files):
07:11 dalek niecza: New pass-aware compiler driver
07:11 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/0fe5cb29e43a0c7eee94910c56fdfe68cc02c1fc
07:14 pugssvn r31845 | azawawi++ | [docs/feather] ran "perl gen.pl in pugs/docs/feather/~"
07:19 sorear rakudo: say Whatever === *
07:19 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«_block114␤»
07:19 sorear rakudo: say Whatever.defined
07:19 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«0␤»
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07:19 sorear rakudo: my $x = *; say $x.defined
07:19 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤»
07:19 sorear Does * have a name?
07:20 sorear rakudo: my $x = *; my $y = *; say $x === $y;
07:20 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«0␤»
07:20 sorear ah, looks like 'Whatever.new' will do
07:21 pugssvn r31846 | moritz++ | [t/spec] unfudge series tests for Rakudo
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07:27 mulander hi all
07:27 mulander 10 failed tests on rakudo make spectest
07:28 mulander http://www.nopaste.pl/s2p
07:28 mulander I believe all of the tests failed because of the strict networking rules on this host.
07:32 sorear it's pretty much to be expected that ~10 spectests will fail on any given user's machine
07:32 sorear setting up the spectest system is ... not as exact a process as we'd like
07:32 mulander I see
07:32 mulander well this host dissallows almost any tcp/ip, udp, icmp communication to the outside :)
07:33 sorear though I don't think I've seen *that* failure before
07:33 mulander that's why I guessed it's the reason for the failure :)
07:33 sorear rakudo: say Whatever.^parents.Str
07:33 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Any() Mu()␤»
07:40 snarkyboojum mulander: those tests should just talk to loopback I think
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08:01 mathw o/
08:02 sorear hi!
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08:02 frettled ho!
08:03 frettled (it's off to work we go)
08:07 tadzik hey
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08:22 jnthn morning, #perl6
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08:22 mathw o/jnthn
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08:23 jnthn o/ mathw
08:23 mathw Exciting times...
08:24 mathw I'm going to try and put together some sort of documentation for Form.pm tonight
08:24 mathw Is last week's release going to be the compiler version for R*, or will there be another one?
08:25 jnthn mathw: No, it won't be - we'll I guess have a compiler release cut just for R*.
08:26 mathw I thought so, I caught something the other day about fixing something for R*
08:26 mathw Just thought I'd check what I should be verifying Form.pm against to make sure it'll work with *
08:26 * sorear is testing Whatever currying for niecza
08:26 sorear it's actually a lot simpler to implement than it sounds
08:27 mathw A lot of things are simpler when you're transforming the AST
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08:27 pmurias ruoso: hi
08:27 pmurias ruoso: do you know where is the repo for v6.pm?
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08:37 cosimo moritz_: you interested in json 'make test' failures in t/04-roundtrip.t ?
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08:41 moritz_ cosimo: they are already reported
08:41 moritz_ cosimo: I'm interested in fixes, though :-)
08:42 cosimo moritz_: cool
08:42 moritz_ afaict they are primarily due to not correctly round-tripped number types
08:42 cosimo i'll see if got a round tuit
08:43 moritz_ 1 -> '1' -> 1.0e0 (ie Num) or so
08:43 moritz_ or other types, like Array -> [1,2,3] -> List
08:44 cosimo moritz_: 4.0 -> '4' but expected is '4/1'
08:44 moritz_ rakudo: ~4.0
08:44 p6eval rakudo 9808d7:  ( no output )
08:44 moritz_ rakudo: say ~4.0
08:44 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«4␤»
08:44 frettled jnthn: It just occurred to me that now that we have no ka[mn]elbullar, we're … no-ops!
08:44 sorear great errors: Failed to resolve lexical &infix:<&infix:<=>>
08:44 moritz_ rakudo: say 4.0.perl
08:45 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«4/1␤»
08:45 dolmen_ rakudo: say 4e0.perl
08:45 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«4␤»
08:46 dolmen_ rakudo: say 4.0e0.perl
08:46 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«4␤»
08:46 moritz_ JSON has only one number type
08:46 dolmen_ rakudo: say 4.0e0 == 4e0
08:46 moritz_ I think the correct thing would be not to test the exact type, but just that $got == $expected if $exepcted ~~ Numeric
08:46 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:47 dolmen_ rakudo: say True
08:47 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:47 moritz_ hugme: add cosimo to json
08:47 * hugme hugs cosimo. Welcome to json!
08:47 jnthn frettled: oh noes!
08:48 dolmen_ rakudo: multi Str(True) { "True" }; say True;
08:48 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:48 dolmen_ rakudo: multi Str(True) { "True" }; say Str(True);
08:48 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«True␤»
08:48 dolmen_ rakudo: multi Str(True) { "True" }; say ~True;
08:49 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:49 cosimo moritz_: thanks, i'll have a look
08:49 dolmen_ how can I override "~True" ?
08:50 moritz_ since JSON has only a few data types, it shouldn't be hard to write a custom comparison function
08:50 moritz_ rakudo: Bool does role { method Str() { $.perl } }; say ~Bool::True
08:50 colomon o/
08:50 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Attempt to use rebless_subclass where the new class was not a subclass␤  in 'infix:<does>' at line 6379:CORE.setting␤  in 'infix:<does>' at line 525:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/vsMNEIdThV␤»
08:50 moritz_ \o
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08:51 moritz_ rakudo: True does role { method Str() { $.perl } }; say ~Bool::True
08:51 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:51 moritz_ dolmen_: seems to require a rakudo patch
08:51 jnthn moritz_: Mixing in to type object = bad idea.
08:51 dolmen_ rakudo: True.perl.say
08:51 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
08:51 moritz_ jnthn: yeah, but the error message could be more awesome :-)
08:52 jnthn moritz_: I agree. It fails for the wrong reason ATM, I suspect.
08:52 sorear rakudo: say ~True
08:52 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:52 sorear rakudo: say True
08:52 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:52 moritz_ rakudo: say True.Str
08:53 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
08:53 moritz_ the method is there already, but the vtable override is missing, it seems
08:53 moritz_ I suspect it uses the get_string vtable from Integer
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08:54 moritz_ rakudo: say True.Stringy
08:54 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Method 'Stringy' not found for invocant of class 'Bool'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/aCjQjsaTbt␤»
08:55 sorear moritz_: re. t/0* in rakudo
08:55 sorear moritz_: that's basically what test.pl in niecza is
08:55 sorear except I have it as one file due to abysmal O(1) factors in the compiler
08:56 dolmen_ rakudo: (~True).WHAT.say
08:56 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
09:00 cosimo rakudo: say ~"a"
09:00 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«a␤»
09:00 cosimo rakudo: say ~"a","b"
09:00 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«ab␤»
09:01 cosimo rakudo: say ~88.88
09:01 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«88.88␤»
09:01 cosimo rakudo: say ~88.000
09:01 moritz_ rakudo: say ~('a', 'b')
09:01 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«88␤»
09:01 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«a b␤»
09:01 cosimo rakudo: say 88.000 + 0
09:01 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«88␤»
09:02 Su-Shee german tech news just ordered two pieces on rakudo * on the 29th
09:02 mathw \o/
09:02 daxim ix?
09:02 daxim c't?
09:02 Su-Shee heise open
09:03 moritz_ hei.se :-)
09:03 daxim online only?
09:03 moritz_ Su-Shee: want somebody to proof-read it? :-)
09:04 Su-Shee moritz_: first of all I need a list of working features and not working features. ;)
09:05 moritz_ http://rakudo.org/status is a first start
09:05 moritz_ though autovivification mostly works now
09:06 daxim I want to port http://stackoverflow.com/questions/203605#2024396
09:06 daxim perl6: for (<あ ご ご>, "\x{3099}") -> $string { say sprintf '%s $string', $string ~~ /^ \X $/ ?? 'ok' !! 'nok' }
09:06 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized backslash sequence: '\x' at line 22, near "{3099}\") -"␤»
09:06 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤    unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6.2.13.14/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤    eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HANDLE>' trapped by operat…
09:07 daxim unicode string escapes, anyone?
09:08 colomon moritz_: when you get the chance, can you look at Math::Vector and Math::Polynomial to sanity check my packaging of the?
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09:08 moritz_ colomon: I'll try tonight, currently I'm a bit distracted
09:09 moritz_ colomon: but if you let ufo generate your makefiles, there's not much you can screw up :-)
09:09 colomon thanks.  moritz_++
09:09 Su-Shee moritz_: so essentially besides details it's macros and threads missing? do I remember that correctly?
09:09 moritz_ Su-Shee: yes. Just updated the list
09:09 moritz_ nested packages also often cause confusion
09:10 moritz_ the implementation is somwhere between non-existant and not-very-robust
09:12 sorear testing++ not ok 61 - state variables preserve values
09:13 mathw nested packages is weird :)
09:13 moritz_ aye
09:14 sorear nested packages mostly works in niecza, although I still haven't implemented "class Foo::Bar" syntax
09:14 sorear but I think I've figured out most of the finer points of lexical/dynamic packages and phasing
09:15 mathw the way they currently work in Rakudo seems to me to be entirely odd
09:15 mathw But at least you can make them work
09:15 mathw So I didn't have to turn Form into one giant module
09:15 sorear well, Rakudo uses Parrot nested packages, which are a clone of Perl5 nested packages
09:15 * moritz_ added LTM to the not working/known to have problems list
09:15 sorear going over the R* checklist?
09:19 Su-Shee what's the best documentation I should link to?
09:20 sorear rakudo: CallFrame
09:20 p6eval rakudo 9808d7:  ( no output )
09:20 sorear rakudo: Callframe
09:20 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &Callframe␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/jzLvH66uDP␤»
09:20 dalek niecza: 5fbd666 | sorear++ |  (3 files):
09:20 dalek niecza: Implement Whatever codegen
09:20 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/5fbd66648484dd10eff7f66066d6a39910181fc2
09:20 dalek niecza: a97b2f5 | sorear++ | CORE.setting:
09:20 dalek niecza: Add Whatever class
09:20 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/a97b2f520278a73d66f60bf8b51d1cf5b8d9212e
09:20 dalek niecza: 07ebf12 | sorear++ | Niecza/Actions.pm:
09:20 dalek niecza: Implement * syntax
09:20 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/07ebf12210b2445c7227db11ee0fe5566e0d7799
09:20 dalek niecza: 2b3c501 | sorear++ | CORE.setting:
09:20 dalek niecza: Implement True and False (no Bool:: form yet due to STD bug)
09:20 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/2b3c5019c588c8b3107dc7585dac7989f60a6fde
09:20 dalek niecza: fbe2e1f | sorear++ | CORE.setting:
09:20 dalek niecza: Use ?? !! and True/False whenever reasonable in setting
09:20 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/fbe2e1f1d5eb9cb41b64d06f1abe7d3a48c3ef6a
09:21 dalek niecza: 378b61f | sorear++ | CompilerDriver.pm:
09:21 dalek niecza: Fix niecza_eval treating --aot as always enabled
09:21 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/378b61f8886b264c592bfe12c53f29de5f2bb8ec
09:21 dalek niecza: ac8238d | sorear++ |  (3 files):
09:21 dalek niecza: Implement whatever currying
09:21 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/ac8238dd3170f0cd7a623fb493464376fbc8b2f0
09:21 dalek niecza: 9d1fa25 | sorear++ | test.pl:
09:21 dalek niecza: Tests for whatever currying
09:21 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/9d1fa25ff2cc36e625d867ac7af740cd440368eb
09:22 cosimo In "rule object { '{' ~ '}' <pairlist> }", what does "~" mean?
09:25 cosimo and, totally unrelated,
09:25 cosimo make spectest_smolder fails w/ error 26... http://nopaste.snit.ch/22327
09:27 sorear cosimo: it actually means '{' <parlist> '}'
09:27 sorear but with better error handling
09:29 cosimo sorear: so "literal1" + "~" + "literal2" + "whatever" is a special case that means any "whatever" between "literal1" and "literal2"?
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09:30 sorear yes.
09:30 moritz_ colomon: yes, but it also gives better error messages when it fails
09:30 sorear also the three tokens can be any regex
09:30 moritz_ rakudo: 'abb' ~~ /a ~ a b'
09:30 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "'abb' ~~ /"␤»
09:30 moritz_ rakudo: 'abb' ~~ /a ~ a b/
09:31 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Unable to parse _block115, couldn't find final a at line 1␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/I4fJxFCakF␤  in 'Cool::match' at line 2377:CORE.setting␤  in 'Regex::ACCEPTS' at line 5470:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 10:/tmp/I4fJxFCakF␤»
09:31 moritz_ rakudo: 'abb' ~~ /:dba("'a'-delimited string") a ~ a b/
09:31 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "'abb' ~~ /"␤»
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09:42 sorear phenny: ask TimToady what do CallFrame.line and $?LINE mean in your LF-polymorphic model?
09:42 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
09:43 sorear std: my module CORE; my class Bool { our constant False = 0; }
09:43 p6eval std 31846: OUTPUT«Can't call method "id" on an undefined value at /home/p6eval/pugs/src/perl6/snap/STD.pm line 63011.␤FAILED 00:01 114m␤»
09:43 sorear phenny: tell TimToady STD bug: my module CORE; my class Bool { our constant False = 0; } # Can't call method "id" on an undefined value
09:43 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
09:46 pmurias sorear when having class Foo {} in setting i get that
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09:49 sorear pmurias: yes, ~same bug
09:50 pmurias i work around that my not defining any globals in the setting
09:50 sorear pmurias: in the setting, $*CURPKG is not initialized; also, 'my' packages don't override $*CURPKG
09:50 sorear which they should
09:50 pmurias my module CORE should define it
09:58 mac joined #perl6
09:58 mac hi
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10:00 rindolf Hi mac
10:02 szabgab there were some perl6 questions posted in response to my screencast, if anyone has the time to respond: http://szabgab.com/blog/2010/07/introduction-to-perl6-screencast-files.html
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10:13 * moritz_ doesn't see any comments
10:15 rindolf moritz_: you need to enable JS.
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10:21 * moritz_ actually agrees that the lines/words/chars thing is not very intuitive
10:26 lichtkind will be parrot included in rakudo * release?
10:26 moritz_ I think so
10:28 Su-Shee does it come with some of the modules already?
10:29 moritz_ yes
10:29 Su-Shee which ones?
10:30 moritz_ http://wiki.github.com/rakudo/rakudo/whats-going-into-rakudo
10:30 lichtkind and whith the pdf book :)
10:30 moritz_ yes
10:30 lichtkind moritz_++ thanks
10:30 moritz_ I can also make the the 5-to-6 PODs available
10:30 lichtkind Su-Shee++ for her bread post
10:30 * moritz_ -> lunch
10:31 Su-Shee moritz_: you probably should.
10:34 * moritz_ wonders if he should make a mini-book out of that
10:34 Su-Shee moritz_: "guide to joy of six" ;)
10:42 lichtkind i think i found a bug
10:43 moritz_ that happens from time to time
10:43 lichtkind i think i found a bug
10:43 lichtkind shit
10:43 moritz_ submit it to rakudobug@perl.org
10:43 ldd left #perl6
10:44 lichtkind moritz_: not the rt?
10:44 moritz_ lichtkind: sending a mail is the way to open a bug on rt
10:45 lichtkind allright
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10:47 tuxuday hi all.
10:48 tuxuday yesterday installed parrot/rakudo and played with it.
10:48 tuxuday wrote sample scripts and all.
10:48 tuxuday i feel the syntax is bit compilcated.
10:49 tuxuday i have used perl, 5, that is for nearly 5/6 years. now perl6
10:49 tuxuday the learning curve is scary, am not sure its worth.
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10:50 tuxuday the work demands writing script in python. - you have no say on that! :(
10:50 lichtkind tuxuday: what especially was hard?
10:50 Su-Shee it's easier if you continue writing writing perl 5 - just in perl 6 - and just use the stuff which isn't really incredible new.
10:50 Su-Shee and wrap this in proper classes and use methods and essentially you're done. ;)
10:50 tuxuday the syntax, most of them.
10:51 tuxuday ex.   say "abcdefgh".substr(|@indexes)
10:52 Su-Shee .oO(I don't even know what | does.. )
10:52 lichtkind beside of sigils ~ and -> you dont have to change that much
10:52 tuxuday i don't understand why new syntax, its another learning curve.
10:52 Su-Shee tuxuday: so use simpler syntax.
10:52 gfldex perl6 got a syntax because it's not perl5+1
10:53 tuxuday so whats the point of new syntax, if i am to use perl5(syntax of course)
10:53 tuxuday gfldex: i buy your point, but the learning curve shouldn't be hard.
10:54 gfldex why shouldn't the learning curve be hard?
10:54 Su-Shee tuxuday: it isn't, if you really look and just write perl 5 in perl 6. it's really just exchanging the -> for a .
10:54 tuxuday ex. i could start coding in python/php without much learning.
10:54 Su-Shee gfldex: because it's annoying and you can't decide wether feature x is actually worthwhile learning it.
10:54 gfldex be happy with python or php then
10:54 mulander it's not about memorizing the whole language
10:55 Su-Shee tuxuday: so simplify your perl 6 code.
10:55 mulander the reference manual and your ide/editor will handle the tricky syntax bits.
10:55 mulander also you are looking at something entirely new
10:55 Su-Shee that's cute in case of perl 6. ;)
10:55 lichtkind Su-Shee: | interpolates in a capture (signature)  context
10:55 mulander python also was considered foreign by some people when it first appeared to gain popularity
10:56 Su-Shee lichtkind: I don't even understand the sentence.
10:56 mulander and about the complexity, look at the haskell syntax - it didn't scare off the hundreds of people sitting on #haskell
10:56 Su-Shee lichtkind: whatever a capture (signature) context might be.. :)
10:56 tuxuday su: please refer http://perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6#post_00
10:56 tuxuday section Interpolation
10:57 Su-Shee tuxuday: why did you use the feature if you find its syntax too difficult?
10:58 tuxuday no i didn't, was checking how it affects programmers
10:58 tuxuday you know perl 5 - 6.
10:58 tuxuday so was checking that url. generally copy-paste-exec stuff.
10:59 tuxuday some of the new syntax made me raise my brows.
10:59 tuxuday i kept on doing it, until i came across interpolation stuff.
10:59 tuxuday then decided its not worth.
10:59 Su-Shee don't use it, there's plenty of stuff you plainly don't need to write stuff.
11:00 pmurias mulander: haskell syntax is complex?
11:01 mulander pmurias: pardon the simplification. I know it's based on a simple rule set but for most people not familliar to the language it looks like line noise.
11:01 tuxuday su - not sure. i feel that i will either stick to perl5 syntax or python.
11:01 mulander I could easilly substitute haskell with erlang, prolog or lisp to make the same case.
11:02 mulander maybe 'foreign' would be a better word than line noise here.
11:02 sorear pmurias: for several years I was convinced parsing Haskell was Rice-hard.  I've recently managed to discover an EXPSPACE algorithm
11:02 Su-Shee tuxuday: well I am sure and I already used perl 6 that way.
11:03 Su-Shee tuxuday: works perfectly fine and then it's actually a cleaner, newer perl.
11:04 tuxuday yeah thats the first impression you get.
11:04 zulon joined #perl6
11:04 tuxuday the 'context sensitive' is gone.
11:04 Su-Shee so why don't you just stick with it? it's not that you _have_ to use all features.
11:04 Su-Shee the what?
11:04 sorear I wonder why nobody ever sees ioccc.org as their first vision of C and permanently regards C as a worthless unreadable language.
11:05 tuxuday one always use, $/@/% ir-respective of the context in which it is used.
11:05 sorear It seems as though Perl alone is subject to the "All X code is identical" fallacy
11:05 Su-Shee tuxuday: that's still there?
11:05 gfldex the context is moved to the operators
11:05 tuxuday nope its gone in perl 6.
11:05 mulander I believe tuxuday refers to using arrays in scalar context for example.
11:06 mulander I believe perl 6 uses @ for arrays regardless of the context (also an example).
11:06 gfldex it does
11:06 gfldex what makes the code more readable
11:07 gfldex imagine you would have to read the end of a word to tell if it's a verb or noun
11:07 Su-Shee what does mean "the context is moved to the operators"?
11:07 gfldex operators know how to handle lists or scalars, depending on LHS and RHS
11:08 gfldex look up ~~
11:08 gfldex it's pure magic :)
11:08 baest http://perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6#post_06 describe contexts
11:08 Su-Shee and how does that make an @array its arrayishness?
11:09 tuxuday gfl: that was there in perl5 too.
11:10 tuxuday i mean one/many based on the operator.
11:10 tuxuday just that they made everything as object in perl6.
11:10 gfldex it's the other way around
11:10 Su-Shee anyway. perl 6 always did what I expected it to do. problem solved for me. ;)
11:10 tuxuday so you can also use @a.elems
11:10 gfldex an operator will do the right thing no matter if you hand it one or many
11:10 tuxuday su - nice to hear that.
11:11 gfldex if you want to force many, you use a hyperoperator
11:11 snarkyboojum I think part of the perceived problem in "syntax" is really related to changed/new concepts underlying "different" syntax in perl 6 c.f. perl 5
11:11 snarkyboojum hence all the comparisons to behaviour or concepts in perl 5
11:12 Su-Shee no, it isn't. I find perl 6 extremely difficult and don't know what half of the features are actually good for.
11:12 gfldex perl6 should have been named !perl5 to prevent all that confusion :)
11:12 tadzik joined #perl6
11:12 tuxuday gfl: may be it should be called as perl at all! :)
11:13 snarkyboojum i.e. once the concepts are understood, the supporting syntax generally makes sense
11:13 Su-Shee snarkyboojum: it would be wonderful if somebody actually explained for us common folks what the new concepts are and what they mean :)
11:13 snarkyboojum Su-Shee: I agree :)
11:14 lichtkind Su-Shee: for that i began perl 6 tablet sorry but currently i have to do something else
11:14 snarkyboojum reading the specs, moritz_'s 5 to 6 docs, the perl 6 book, irc logs, pestering the devs in here, lurking in the channel, and writing Perl 6 code are helpful :)
11:15 snarkyboojum but it's definitely not all in one place
11:15 gfldex IMHO the base line is to allow definition of custom operator (even at runtime) and build a languare around it
11:15 Su-Shee snarkyboojum: I'm doing that since 2000. if you don't constantly read along here, you just don't get "stuff". and that's really bad.
11:15 snarkyboojum I guess it's in the specs, but they have a tendency to make my head feel funny after a while :P
11:17 snarkyboojum Su-Shee: thankfully the rate of change seems to have slowed down, so perhaps documentation will have a better chance to catch up.. I think that's been part of the problem
11:17 Su-Shee snarkyboojum: unless I see convincing reasons to use feature x or y I don't use it. just for the cool of it, I don't.
11:19 snarkyboojum Su-Shee: sounds like a good rationale to me.. I do the same - but there's plenty of growing room there for additional expressiveness as competency increases.. it is Perl after all :)
11:19 Su-Shee snarkyboojum: I'm not really the target group for perl 6 anyway.
11:20 snarkyboojum Su-Shee: why's what?
11:21 Su-Shee snarkyboojum: I just wanted the nicer perl. that's what I have really use for. I'm way too much of a every-day developer to actually need more than just a well crafted basic language. I need "environment" much more - and not features.
11:21 gfldex there are indeed pretty much no bindings yet
11:22 gfldex but it doesn
11:22 Su-Shee snarkyboojum: I would have been fine with let's say the sigil change, a little of the grammars, OO and a little iterator sugar coating.
11:22 gfldex but it doesn't make much sense to write interfaces when the implementation got so many holes
11:22 mscha joined #perl6
11:23 Su-Shee snarkyboojum: which is essentially what I use of rakudo.
11:23 gfldex let's see what you will say in 5 years :)
11:23 Su-Shee gfldex: I will.
11:24 snarkyboojum Su-Shee: I agree with you - many of the core language features like OO are just clean and lovely to use :)
11:24 Su-Shee snarkyboojum: exactly.
11:24 Su-Shee snarkyboojum: and that's the perl I wished for in 2000.
11:28 Su-Shee snarkyboojum: and last but not least is an interesting question wether the fashion of functional programming stays and if the style of zenlike, tidy, simple code also remains. how does perl 6 fit in there...
11:28 gfldex very well
11:29 gfldex rakudo: my @a = <c B A d>; say @a.sort: *.lc;
11:29 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«ABcd␤»
11:29 Su-Shee well then you must have read different examples than I did. ;)
11:30 gfldex this tiny *.lc creates a function for you
11:30 gfldex and it's quite simply ofc
11:31 pmurias Su-Shee: so what is the sort of things you can't find an use for?
11:31 gfldex i would even say there is no way to get a list sorted by the lower case of it's values any more simpler
11:33 Su-Shee pmurias: first, I tried to use everything methods have to offer in terms of parameter handling, because it sounded great and I thought I really needed it. then I realized that it doesn't really improve anything so I use either consistently @_ again or simple, stupid params like foo ($bar, @blubb) and that's essentially it.
11:33 huf i could see heavy use for the named params in poorly-planned code, when you have to patch extra behaviors onto stuff later on :D
11:34 rgrau_ joined #perl6
11:34 huf but p6 has better stuff for that, from what i gather on this chan
11:36 Su-Shee the point is probably that I code defensively. If I didn't understand something after reading the docs twice, I don't use it.
11:36 huf there are proper docs?
11:36 * TiMBuS blinks
11:36 huf the S* is a bit too thick to be called end-programmer documentation, and the book is a bit too lightweight
11:36 Su-Shee well the specs and moritz's stuff.
11:38 huf on the other hand, idling on this channel is a pretty good way to learn ;)
11:39 Su-Shee yeah but there's tons of other things I have to learn and understand. ;)
11:40 tuxuday perl6: say 'hi'
11:40 huf yeah but you get to learn perl a second time! it was immense fun the first time for me, so i'm looking forward to it
11:40 p6eval pugs, rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«hi␤»
11:41 tuxuday how can i use evalbot?
11:42 tadzik tuxuday: just like You did
11:42 baest rakudo: say 'Hi tuxuday';
11:42 gfldex /query rakudo
11:42 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Hi tuxuday␤»
11:42 Su-Shee huf: I'm on my way of abadoning perl entirely, actually.
11:42 tuxuday rakudo: say 'hi';
11:42 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«hi␤»
11:42 tadzik Su-Shee: why so?
11:42 gfldex err p6eval
11:42 tuxuday p6eval: say 'hi';
11:43 tadzik tuxuday: just use rakudo:
11:43 tuxuday nothing working i tried perl6/rakudo/p6eval
11:43 Su-Shee tadzik: because the stuff I find interesting is happening elsewhere.
11:43 baest tuxuday: rakudo worked fine?
11:43 tuxuday rakudo: say 'hi';
11:44 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«hi␤»
11:44 tadzik tuxuday: works for me
11:44 Su-Shee me too?
11:44 tadzik Su-Shee: and what do You find interesting?
11:44 tuxuday yeah rakudo works. thx.
11:44 Su-Shee tadzik: high end web stuff, gui development, microcontrollers & mobile devices...
11:46 Su-Shee tadzik: the upcoming non-blocking/asynch stuff with Node.js for example is very interesting.
11:46 snarkyboojum perl6: say "or use all p6eval targets"
11:46 p6eval pugs, rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«or use all p6eval targets␤»
11:47 snarkyboojum oh you already tried that :)
11:51 moritz_ rakudo: say "-",[+] 2..7,'hello',"does anybody see me?"
11:52 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«-27␤»
11:52 moritz_ rakudo: say "-",([+] 2..7),'hello',"does anybody see me?"
11:52 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«-27hellodoes anybody see me?␤»
11:52 moritz_ lichtkind: works here
11:55 Su-Shee is there a good example of callbacks somewhere?
11:55 moritz_ Su-Shee: like, map or grep?
11:56 moritz_ Su-Shee: or File::Find
11:56 ggoebel Sh-Shee: regarding http://rakudo.org/status ...it might be worth clarifying that the recent huge drop in number of passing tests is due to a reduction in the number of tests. Colomon can clarify, but if I recall correctly, the same functionality is being tested, it is just doing so with fewer tests.
11:56 Su-Shee ggoebel: I just need the features and capabilities.
11:57 moritz_ ggoebel: that's correct, and just shows that test counts are intrinsically meaningless
11:58 tadzik what's happening to that status graph btw?
11:58 bbkr joined #perl6
11:58 moritz_ it's being updated whenever docs/spectest-progress.csv is being updated
11:59 Su-Shee moritz_: no I meant like in GUI programming or JavaScript or the former foo => $subref->() I could use for that..
12:00 tadzik moritz_: it looks like spectest-progress.csv is gone or something
12:00 gfldex rakudo: sub foo(){say 'foo was called'}; my $a = &foo; $a();
12:00 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«foo was called␤»
12:00 moritz_ Su-Shee: I don't really see the difference between callbacks in GUI programing and map/grep/File::Find... or are you talking about the invocation syntax?
12:01 daxim moritz_, s{<h2>Common things that are known to have problems}{<h2 id="broken">Common things that are known to have problems}
12:01 snarkyboojum tadzik: it's in docs/
12:01 tadzik snarkyboojum: see the image on http://rakudo.org/status
12:02 snarkyboojum yeah.. I see a graph
12:02 moritz_ daxim: added
12:03 moritz_ tadzik: huh? it's still in my checkout
12:03 tadzik snarkyboojum: that's my point, and worries. Doesn't look to promising just before R*, people will probably want to see it to see what's going around
12:03 tadzik moritz_: see the downfall in the recent days, on the graph?
12:03 moritz_ tadzik: yes, that's what ggoebel explained a few minutes ago
12:04 Su-Shee moritz_: about the syntax.
12:04 snarkyboojum tadzik: I don't understand, I can see the graph - the decrease is related to colomon redoing the trig spectests
12:04 tadzik moritz_: ah, I see
12:04 tadzik yeah, I get it now
12:04 moritz_ Su-Shee: ok. $thing() or $thing.() or $thing(arguments)
12:04 moritz_ the . is optional, but I sometimes like it for clarity
12:04 tadzik it now looks like there are more passes than tests :>
12:05 moritz_ yeah, counting bug in the .csv file, I assume
12:08 Su-Shee but it has to be a subref?
12:08 masak joined #perl6
12:08 masak oh hai, #perl6!
12:08 masak does anyone have anything concrete to say about this? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1543982
12:09 moritz_ Su-Shee: it has to be something Callable
12:09 Su-Shee moritz_: foo(@bla, .callme($blubb)) ?
12:09 moritz_ Su-Shee: a sub, a block, or anything that overloads postcircumfix:<( )>
12:10 moritz_ .callme is the same as $_.callme - I don't know if that's what you want
12:10 masak oh, and I figured out whence the Mu() in my post came. :)
12:11 masak rakudo: say "".substr(4).WHAT
12:11 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
12:11 moritz_ $widget.install-callback('onClose', &myCloseHandler);
12:11 masak I believe I filed a ticket for that.
12:12 snarkyboojum hi masak! o/
12:12 moritz_ masak: so you did
12:12 masak hi snarky!
12:13 masak I'm almost back to IRC now.
12:13 Su-Shee moritz_: and 'onClose', myCloseHandler() ?
12:13 masak being obstructed by silly little things like gonig across the sound to help my dad buy planks. :P
12:13 snarkyboojum masak: w00t
12:13 moritz_ Su-Shee: would invoke myCloseHandler(), and pass the result to install-callback
12:13 masak s/gonig/going/
12:14 masak snarkyboojum: I expect to have the Yapsi refactor done in a day or so. after that, we can look at getting Tardis working for the release.
12:14 snarkyboojum masak: ok :)
12:15 masak snarkyboojum: I'm still very open to ideas about how to represent things like `my $a = 42; { my $a = 5 }`
12:15 masak during debugging, I mean.
12:16 snarkyboojum masak: right
12:16 moritz_ color-code blocks and variables
12:17 masak moritz_: hm. that presupposes showing the code along with the variable values.
12:17 masak perhaps not such a bad idea.
12:17 masak & # planks
12:17 pmurias masak: re ycombinator post it's incorrect
12:19 * pmurias hopes masak doesn't have to walk the plank
12:21 bluescreen joined #perl6
12:21 * moritz_ replied to that hackernews comment
12:24 tadzik > use File::Find; sub found ($a) { say $a }; find({callback => &found}, 'lib')
12:24 tadzik get_attr_str() not implemented in class 'Sub'
12:24 tadzik ↑ what does he want here?
12:25 moritz_ tadzik: do you have some .pir files lying around from before your last rakudo update?
12:27 tadzik moritz_: I explicitly set PERL6LIB in here, but I had a problem with test.pirs lying, after make clean; make install they were fine though
12:27 tadzik works when I run from 2010.07 though, so I guess that's it
12:28 moritz_ tadzik: point is, whenever you recompile rakudo, you should be throwing away your old .pir files
12:28 tadzik moritz_: from where?
12:29 moritz_ tadzik: from the rakudo install location, ~/.perl6/lib, and from the directories where your .pm files live
12:29 tadzik ok, I'll keep my eye on this
12:35 mscha rakudo: say "a a" ~~ m/a a/ ?? "yes" !! "no"
12:35 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«no␤»
12:35 mscha rakudo: say "a a" ~~ mm/a a/ ?? "yes" !! "no"
12:35 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say \"a a\" "␤»
12:35 mscha rakudo: say "a a" ~~ m:s/a a/ ?? "yes" !! "no"
12:36 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say \"a a\" "␤»
12:36 mscha rakudo: say "a a" ~~ m/:s a a/ ?? "yes" !! "no"
12:36 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«yes␤»
12:36 mscha mm/.../ and m:flags/.../ not implemented yet?
12:36 moritz_ mscha: m:modifiers// is something I wanted to work on this week... though :s probably won't be easy to do on the outside
12:37 moritz_ and yes, mm// is also not yet implemented
12:37 mscha No big deal, at least there's an easy workaround.
12:38 moritz_ phenny: tell pmichaud if you provide an API for passing modifiers (like :s and :i) to the regex parser, I'll try to implement mm// and m:i// and rx:i// and the like
12:38 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
12:39 moritz_ phenny: tell pmichaud something like .LANG('Regex', 'nibbler', :%adverbs) or so
12:39 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
12:39 moritz_ on s///, some adverbs work already
12:40 moritz_ :g, :p, :c, :x, :nth, :samecase (though doesn't imply :i on the regex yet)
12:42 patrickas joined #perl6
12:42 mscha rakudo: my $s = "Hello, World!"; $s ~~ s:nth(2)/l/p/; say $s;
12:42 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Helpo, World!␤»
12:42 patrickas o/ perlsixers!
12:42 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
12:42 phenny pmichaud: 12:38Z <moritz_> tell pmichaud if you provide an API for passing modifiers (like :s and :i) to the regex parser, I'll try to implement mm// and m:i// and rx:i// and the like
12:42 phenny pmichaud: 12:39Z <moritz_> tell pmichaud something like .LANG('Regex', 'nibbler', :%adverbs) or so
12:43 pmichaud moritz_: there's already an api of sorts -- see 'token' and 'rule'
12:43 moritz_ pmichaud: ohh, that's nice
12:44 wamba joined #perl6
12:45 moritz_ pmichaud: uhm... 'token' and 'rule' just set a contextual, and then call regex_def, which again calls .LANG('Regex', 'nibbler') - so is it the $*METHODTYPE contextual that's being inspected?
12:46 patrickas moritz_ I think I ported most of TheDamian's IO::Prompter to master, care to take a look ? I am sure there are some monstrosities that can be easilly fixed by someone who has an idea about what they are doing (aka not me :-)
12:46 patrickas http://github.com/patrickas/io-prompter/commit/c7e41f31b5f3ba5e2a67cdd74142d96b901fc958
12:47 moritz_ patrickas: I have to postpone it a bit (too many things going on in parallel), feel free to remind me tomorrow in case I forget
12:47 patrickas moritz_ no problem you're the Boss :)
12:47 moritz_ my @no_sink = gather loop {
12:47 moritz_ should probably be
12:47 moritz_ eager gather loop {
12:48 patrickas that's the kind of monstrosities I was talking about :-)
12:49 moritz_ thought so :-)
12:50 patrickas there is another one where I could not get !=:= to work :-(
12:50 [Coke] I wonder if perl6 has an unusally high number of people who are at least passingly familiar with more than one natural languae.
12:50 [Coke] *language.
12:50 moritz_ patrickas: =:= is kinda broken at the moment
12:52 rgrau__ joined #perl6
12:52 mscha rakudo: token planet { :i 'world' | 'earth' | 'mars' | 'venus' }; say "Hello, World!" ~~ /<planet>/
12:53 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of has-scoped token in a module; add our or my to install it in the lexpad or namespace␤Method 'planet' not found for invocant of class 'Cursor'␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/lFaMiAgRtp␤  in 'Cool::match' at line 2377:CORE.setting␤  in 'Regex::ACCEPTS' at
12:53 p6eval ..line 547…
12:53 mscha rakudo: my token planet { :i 'world' | 'earth' | 'mars' | 'venus' }; say "Hello, World!" ~~ /<planet>/
12:53 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Method 'planet' not found for invocant of class 'Cursor'␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/BbkebEAr_0␤  in 'Cool::match' at line 2377:CORE.setting␤  in 'Regex::ACCEPTS' at line 5470:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/BbkebEAr_0␤»
12:53 patrickas <&planet> maybe ?
12:53 mscha rakudo: my token planet { :i 'world' | 'earth' | 'mars' | 'venus' }; say "Hello, World!" ~~ /<&planet>/
12:53 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«␤»
12:53 mscha Doesn't complain, but doesn't appear to work either
12:54 patrickas rakudo: my token planet { :i 'world' | 'earth' | 'mars' | 'venus' }; say "Hello, world!" ~~ /<&planet>/
12:54 pmichaud rakudo:  my token xyz { a };  say 'a' ~~ /<&xyz>/;
12:54 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«world␤»
12:54 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«a␤»
12:54 patrickas seems like :i issure
12:55 patrickas s/issure/issue/
12:55 moritz_ rakudo: say 'a' ~~ /:i A/
12:55 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«a␤»
12:55 moritz_ rakudo: say 'a' ~~ /:i 'A'/
12:55 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«␤»
12:55 moritz_ seems like :i doesn't descend into ''
12:55 pmichaud wow, that's.... weird.
12:55 * moritz_ submits rakudobug
12:55 moritz_ mscha++ for finding it in the first place
12:58 pmichaud (perl 6 syntax, from backscroll)  it's worth noting that in many ways syntax was chosen to make things easier for non-perl programmers and not to ease the 5-to-6 transition.
12:58 jnthn pmichaud: fwiw, the :i doesn't descend into interpolated thingies either.
12:59 pmichaud jnthn: I'm not sure that it should.
12:59 moritz_ I think it shouldn't
12:59 moritz_ considering that :i is basically lexically scoped
12:59 jnthn OK, there's a ticket we should reject about it then.
12:59 pmichaud jnthn: I'm not sure that it shouldn't.  :)
12:59 moritz_ otoh there should be a way to interpolate a string and do case insensitive matching, somehow
12:59 jnthn pmichaud: :P
13:00 jnthn 76500 is the ticket number, anyways :-)
13:00 pmichaud jnthn: the specification has long been a bit ambiguous on this particular point.
13:01 Util joined #perl6
13:01 pmichaud moritz_: %REGEX_MODIFIERS is the way that token/rule set (some) modifiers for the regex.
13:02 pmichaud (in src/Perl6/Actions.pm)
13:02 moritz_ pmichaud: just found it, thanks
13:03 moritz_ currently <quotepair> constructs PAST in its .ast
13:03 moritz_ so I guess we can't just copy its .ast, but need to unwrap that PAST again... or maybe not construct it as PAST in the first place, and provide a wrapping function in Actions.pm
13:07 molecules_ joined #perl6
13:07 pmichaud I'm pretty sure we want <quotepair> to construct the PAST
13:07 PZt joined #perl6
13:08 molecules_ left #perl6
13:08 moritz_ and then inspect that PAST to generate %REGEX_MODIFIERS ?
13:09 moritz_ and die on cases like m:i($x)/a/ ?
13:09 pmichaud well, the s/// construct itself needs to create a new %REGEX_MODIFIERS
13:09 pmichaud (like token/regex/rule do)
13:10 atrodo joined #perl6
13:10 pmichaud and then yes, quotepairs would modify that
13:10 pmichaud well, the thing that calls <quotepairs> would modify it.
13:10 moritz_ right
13:11 moritz_ so quote:sym<s> passes $<quotepair>.ast to the .subst() call, but previously extracts :i and :s from $<quotepair>.ast and stores them in %REGEX_MODIFIERS
13:11 pmichaud yes
13:11 moritz_ then we have an agreement :-)
13:11 pmichaud or, it always sets %REGEX_MODIFIERS _and_ passes them to the .subst() call.
13:12 pmichaud rather than trying to figure out which-is-which
13:12 bbkr how to merge two tickets in RT?
13:12 moritz_ pmichaud: that's not so easy, because they expect different formats
13:12 pmichaud ...different formats?
13:13 moritz_ %REGEX_MODIFIERS wants literals als parrot integers, for example, and .subst wants them as PAST::Val nodes
13:13 moritz_ s/als/as/
13:13 pmichaud right, so unpack the quotepair for %REGEX_MODIFIERS (where constant), and leave them as PAST::Val for .subst
13:13 moritz_ right
13:14 pmichaud I'm just saying that I don't think it needs to be keyed on modifier name as to which is done... just always do both.
13:15 moritz_ I disagree
13:15 moritz_ I think s:i($x)/// should die at compile time
13:15 moritz_ because we need to know the value of i at compile time
13:15 moritz_ whereas s:x($x)/// is totally fine
13:15 pmichaud I don't mind if we special-case a check on ':i'
13:15 pmichaud I do mind if we special-case the code gen for ':'
13:15 pmichaud *':i'
13:16 moritz_ does the regex engine ignore adverbs it doesn't understand?
13:16 pmichaud yes.
13:16 moritz_ ok
13:16 pmichaud (as most methods do)
13:17 [Coke] merging two tickets in RT: go to the links section on ticket one. enter ticket 2 in merge. submit
13:17 [Coke] also be verrrry careful, no undo.
13:17 pmichaud ...no undo?  I thought I've unmerged tickets before.
13:17 pmichaud anyway, no harm in being careful :)
13:21 huf hmm, for is like for LIST BLOCK, right? so how do you pass an existing block to it?
13:21 moritz_ huf: by using map
13:21 bbkr [Coke]: thanks, merging works
13:21 moritz_ map &block, @list
13:21 ab5tract joined #perl6
13:22 huf moritz_: no way to do it with for? since i'd expect for and map to be slightly different
13:22 huf or they arent?
13:22 PerlJam good morning #perl6
13:22 moritz_ huf: they shouldn't be
13:22 PerlJam huf: they are slightly the same :)
13:22 moritz_ huf: currently map is lazier
13:23 pmichaud for and map are essentially the same.
13:23 moritz_ so you might need to write  eager map &block, @list  for now
13:23 huf so for is just a different syntax, one that needs the block to be there syntacticallt?
13:23 moritz_ but only until we get sink context
13:23 moritz_ right
13:23 pmichaud I worked on sink context a couple of nights ago and it got... icky.  :-(
13:23 pmichaud I decided it was a bit much pre-R*
13:24 pmichaud so, I'm not sure about
13:24 moritz_ right; you probably need to special-case assignment, and maybe other things too
13:24 pmichaud sub foo() { my $a = (1..10).map({ .say }); };   foo();
13:24 pmichaud or, more precisely
13:24 pmichaud sub foo() { my $a = (1..10).map({ .say }); };   foo();   1
13:25 huf hmm, so what do you call this property of for that it doesnt allow runtime (or even compile time i guess) passing of the block? :)
13:25 huf i'd guess if and friends also have this property
13:25 moritz_ huf: it's a syntactic form
13:25 pmichaud huf: 'for' is a statement :-)
13:25 pmichaud huf: so yes, 'if' and friends also have that characteristics
13:25 pmichaud there's always    for @list { &block(); }
13:26 huf you havent invented nice names for ALL the concepts?
13:26 huf pmichaud: i dont have a problem with the way this is, i just want to understand the edges
13:26 moritz_ there's also maybe quasi { for @list {{{ &block }}} }
13:26 moritz_ not sure if that works
13:26 moritz_ std: quasi { for @list {{{ &block }}} }
13:27 p6eval std 31846: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Variable @list is not predeclared at /tmp/b3ZnTG52HU line 1:␤------> [32mquasi { for @list[33m⏏[31m {{{ &block }}} }[0m␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 129m␤»
13:27 moritz_ std: my (@list, &block); quasi { for @list {{{ &block }}} }
13:27 p6eval std 31846: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 132m␤»
13:27 huf okay, i'll need to go read more documentation
13:28 pmichaud with
13:28 pmichaud sub foo() { my $a = (1..10).map({ .say }); };   foo();   1
13:28 pmichaud I wonder if it's the fact that the return value is an item that prevents it from being evaluated eagerly somehow.
13:29 xinming_ joined #perl6
13:29 dolmen_ rakudo: sub foo(Int @a) { [+] @a }; my $a = [1, 2, 3]; say foo($a);  # Difference between $a and @a when both contain an array
13:29 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '@a'; expected Positional[Int] but got Array instead␤  in 'foo' at line 22:/tmp/RZvLw72NJ2␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/RZvLw72NJ2␤»
13:30 dolmen_ rakudo: sub foo(@a) { [+] @a }; my $a = [1, 2, 3]; say foo($a);  # Difference between $a and @a when both contain an array
13:30 pmichaud $a isn't an Array of Int there -- it's an Array of Any
13:30 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«6␤»
13:30 moritz_ pmichaud: I wonder if the fact that you return a variable (and not a value directly) affects eagerness
13:31 pmichaud moritz_: the problem is that at the point where foo() gets evaluated, we don't know that it's a variable
13:31 pmichaud return only returns values
13:31 pmichaud (unless the sub "is rw")
13:31 moritz_ pmichaud: but sink context flows inward
13:31 pmichaud moritz_: o_O
13:31 pmichaud do not want()
13:31 pmichaud there's no "flows inward" here.
13:32 pmichaud sink context is applied to the thing returned from foo().... it's not that foo() recognizes "oh, I'm sink context".
13:32 moritz_ hm
13:32 moritz_ I kinda thought we had that exception for sink context - but I might be wrong
13:32 moritz_ that's something we can discuss with TimToady and jnthn at YAPC
13:33 jnthn yay YAPC is soon \o/
13:33 * dolmen_ wonders how to explains sigils to a beginner as $ can contain @ and % too
13:34 PerlJam dolmen_: beginners don't need to know that :)
13:34 moritz_ dolmen_: it's rather easy. A $ sigil means that you get one iteration when you do  for $thing { ... }\
13:34 moritz_ dolmen_: wheres with @ and % you get potentially many iterations
13:34 pmichaud in php, $ can contain arrays and hashes also, and beginners there don't have a big issue with it :)
13:35 dolmen_ pmichaud: the issue is how to tell them to use @ and % instead of always $ as they do in PHP
13:36 PerlJam dolmen_: tell them to always use @ for arrays and % for hashes.
13:37 PerlJam dolmen_: When/how would you introduce the idea of "context" to a beginner?
13:37 gfldex the problem with PHPlings is that they have hashes but call it array
13:37 [Coke] I wouldn't call it context. it's more like coercion.
13:37 [Coke] just be sure to distinguish between array and associative array.
13:37 huf gfldex: nope. they have ordered hashes.
13:37 dolmen_ rakudo: my $a = <a b c>; map { .say } $a;
13:37 huf much worse
13:37 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "map { .say"␤»
13:38 [Coke] (tcl will have the same issue.) hashes are arrays or dicts, and arrays are lists, there. =-)
13:38 pmichaud dolmen_: need comma
13:38 dolmen_ rakudo: my $a = <a b c>; map { .say }, $a;
13:38 pmichaud and eager :-)
13:38 p6eval rakudo 9808d7:  ( no output )
13:39 pmichaud rakudo:  my $a = <a b c>;  eager map { .say }, $a;
13:39 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«a b c␤»
13:40 PerlJam dolmen_: note that there's only one value  :)
13:40 dolmen_ PerlJam: oh yes
13:41 pmichaud afk for a bit
13:41 dolmen_ rakudo: my $a = <a b c>; say $a.WHAT;
13:41 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Seq()␤»
13:42 * PerlJam has some swiss chocolate for "breakfast"
13:42 mathw Good breakfast!
13:42 mscha Probably a stupid question: how do you dereference an array ref?
13:42 PerlJam mscha: what's an array ref?   :)
13:42 mscha rakudo: my $a = [1, 2, 3]; for $a { .say; }
13:42 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
13:42 mscha rakudo: my $a = [1, 2, 3]; for @$a { .say; }
13:42 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at line 22, near "@$a { .say"␤»
13:44 PerlJam rakudo:  my $a = [1, 2, 3]; for @($a) { .say }
13:44 PerlJam (you were close)
13:44 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
13:44 mscha Thx!
13:44 * dolmen_ would like some chocolate for his "quatre heures" (afternoon snack)
13:45 PerlJam mathw: hey!  what happened to your github account?
13:45 mathw I changed it
13:45 mathw I probably should have told someone I suppose
13:45 mathw since it just broke all the URLs for Form
13:45 mathw hmm
13:46 mathw woops :)
13:46 mathw but I thought, better now than later
13:46 mathw github.com/mathw/form now
13:46 PerlJam you didn't like mattw ?
13:47 mathw no
13:47 mathw I much prefer mathw
13:47 mathw and it's consistent with IRC
13:47 mathw I even have the domain name now :)
13:49 bbkr are there any tests for list laziness? I wonder if http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=64886 can be closed or does it need another test
13:50 moritz_ bbkr: just add a test that puts a last; after the inner say()
13:50 moritz_ (and don't use say(), but rather an assignment to a variable)
13:51 bbkr moritz_: ok
13:51 moritz_ rakudo: my $tracker = 0; for 1..10000000 { $tracker++; last }; use Test; is $tracker, 1, 'yay'; done_testing;
13:51 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«ok 1 - yay␤1..1␤»
13:54 pmichaud (tests for laziness)  wouldn't be valid.
13:57 moritz_ better if we wrote  for 1..* { ... }?
13:57 pmichaud (looking at ticket)  -- no, I'm guessing the ticket is fine.
13:57 moritz_ iirc infinite lists are guarantueed not to be eagerly evaluated, unless nessesary
13:57 pmichaud yeah, that might be better.
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13:58 pmichaud the wording in the ticket somehow doesn't follow my notion of 'laziness'.  Or, I guess another way of saying it is that 'for' isn't eagerly evaluating its list.
13:58 pmichaud i.e., that's what we're testing for
13:59 pmichaud but
13:59 pmichaud 13:51 <moritz_> rakudo: my $tracker = 0; for 1..10000000 { $tracker++; last }; use Test; is $tracker, 1, 'yay'; done_testing;
13:59 pmichaud tests the laziness of the argument to 'for', not the laziness of the for loop itself.
14:00 moritz_ right
14:00 moritz_ because the for-loop isn't lazy
14:02 bbkr rakudo: [+]
14:02 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "[+]"␤»
14:04 pmichaud afk for a bit
14:06 bbkr rakudo: class Foo does Positional[::T] {}; say Foo ~~ Positional # what does this ::T should do?
14:06 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤»
14:06 dolmen_ rakudo: use Test; for (map { is $_, 1, 'yay' } [ 1, 2 ]) { last; }; done_testing; # map is not eager, but for is
14:06 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
14:07 bbkr rakudo: role A {}; class Foo does A[::T] {}
14:07 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for '_block120'. Available candidates are:␤:()␤␤»
14:08 dolmen_ rakudo: use Test; for (map { is $_, 1, 'yay' }, [ 1, 2 ]) { last; }; done_testing; # map is not eager, but for is
14:08 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - yay␤#      got: '1 2'␤# expected: '1'␤1..1␤# Looks like you failed 1 tests of 1␤»
14:08 dolmen_ rakudo: use Test; for (map { is $_, 1, 'yay' }, ( 1, 2) ) { last; }; done_testing; # map is not eager, but for is
14:08 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«ok 1 - yay␤1..1␤»
14:09 dolmen_ rakudo: use Test; for (map { is $_, 1, 'yay' }, 1, 2 ) { last; }; done_testing; # map is not eager, but for is
14:09 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«ok 1 - yay␤1..1␤»
14:09 dolmen_ for does not seem to be eager
14:10 dolmen_ rakudo: use Test; for (eager map { is $_, 1, 'yay' }, 1, 2 ) { last; }; done_testing; # map is not eager, but for is
14:10 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«ok 1 - yay␤not ok 2 - yay␤#      got: '2'␤# expected: '1'␤1..2␤# Looks like you failed 1 tests of 2␤»
14:12 xabbu42 joined #perl6
14:15 dolmen_ rakudo: use Test; my @input = <a b c>; my $n = 1; for (map { is $n++, 1, 'yay'; $_ }, @input ) { last; }; done_testing; # map is not eager, but for should be
14:15 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«ok 1 - yay␤1..1␤»
14:15 atrodo joined #perl6
14:16 dolmen_ rakudo: use Test; my @input = <a b c>; my $n = 1; for (map { $n++; $_ }, @input ) { last; }; is $n, +@n; done_testing; # map is not eager, but for should be
14:16 zulon joined #perl6
14:16 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '@n' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/gmENvogOuw:22)␤»
14:17 dolmen_ rakudo: use Test; my @input = <a b c>; my $n = 1; for (map { $n++; $_ }, @input ) { last; }; is $n, +@input; done_testing; # map is not eager, but for should be
14:17 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - ␤#      got: '2'␤# expected: '3'␤1..1␤# Looks like you failed 1 tests of 1␤»
14:18 dolmen_ rakudo: use Test; my @input = <a b c>; my $n = 0; for (map { $n++; $_ }, @input ) { last; }; is $n, +@input; done_testing; # map is not eager, but for should be
14:19 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - ␤#      got: '1'␤# expected: '3'␤1..1␤# Looks like you failed 1 tests of 1␤»
14:19 dolmen_ moritz_: that one seems fine
14:20 dolmen_ rakudo: use Test; my @input = <a b c>; my $n = 0; for (eager map { $n++; $_ }, @input ) { last; }; is $n, +@input; done_testing; # added explicit eager
14:20 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«ok 1 - ␤1..1␤»
14:27 perlygatekeeper joined #perl6
14:34 moritz_ http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2010-July/102306.html first paragraph - au++ got that right from the start :-)
14:35 PerlJam au++ indeed.
14:36 PerlJam I'm quite surprised to see guido loose the reigns like that though.
14:36 PerlJam I guess even guido can learn something  :)
14:38 moritz_ I kinda don't expect him to hand out commit bits quite as freely as we do
14:38 moritz_ but still, he's moving in that direction
14:38 masak pmurias: re yc post being incorrect -- I'd be happy to know how, exactly. if I agree, I might post the reply.
14:38 * masak logs off and logs in with his own laptop
14:43 patrickas maybe we should have a bot that auto gives commit bit to anyone who joins the channel :-)
14:44 moritz_ not so easy, requires an email address :-)
14:45 patrickas so many requirements!
14:46 PerlJam Hi!  Would you like a commit bit?  Send an email to mumble@perl6.org and you'll get one!
14:46 PerlJam How about that?  :)
14:46 xabbu42 joined #perl6
14:47 cono how to recover pwd for pugs svn? ^^
14:48 xabbu42 joined #perl6
14:49 xabbu42 joined #perl6
14:51 moritz_ cono: /msg me your email address, and I can send a re-invitation
14:52 masak joined #perl6
14:52 masak \o/
14:52 moritz_ though I usually find them in my ~/.subversion/ directory somewhere :-)
14:52 moritz_ o/ masak
14:52 masak it's nice to be back.
14:53 masak hi from an almost unbearably pretty landscape on the west coast of Sweden.
14:53 cono masak: oh hai
14:53 masak I'm sitting in the shade of my parents house, finally back on my own laptop.
14:54 masak cono: hi! pack/unpack! :)
14:54 cono moritz_: gnome keyring swollow my password :(
14:54 moritz_ you shouldn't be sitting your laptop, y'know
14:54 cono masak: yeah. I can't follow the format line :(
14:54 masak moritz_: I've been hiking around all over the island for the last four days. I deserve a break :P
14:54 cono masak: any s/// produce PMC error
14:54 * masak commences a long and arduous backlog journey
14:54 cono m:g/// does not work
14:54 ruoso joined #perl6
14:54 masak cono: lots to fix. I know. :/
14:55 masak cono: workarounds are the answer right now.
14:55 cono Maybe someone help to choose way to follow format string?
14:55 moritz_ cono: you have mail. You might have to remove a port number from the URL, though
14:57 masak cono: I'll gladly help; please explain what it is you expect, and how you're getting stuck.
14:58 pyrimidine joined #perl6
14:58 * masak notices the revert commit f7fdd5120b844c
14:58 masak moritz_: I'm sorry too :/
14:58 cono I tried while $format ~~ s/ ^^ (<[cC]>) // { ...
14:58 cono also while $format { if ($format ~~ s/// ...
14:59 masak moritz_: seems first thing we should find out is whether the commit is actually to blame.
14:59 pwd joined #perl6
14:59 masak moritz_: did the spectests show this? I think I ran them, but maybe not all the way through...
14:59 cono after that I tried to do wihle $format ~~ m:g/.../
14:59 moritz_ masak: I got some random failures in some of the module loading test
14:59 masak cono: you can do that with .substr
14:59 moritz_ cono: s:g/// should work with newest rakudo
14:59 masak so, spectests, IOW.
15:00 moritz_ cono: if not, please submit a bug report
15:00 masak moritz_: I'll run the spectests, apply the commit, and re-run the spectests.
15:00 cono moritz_: ok. Recompiling. Thanks
15:00 masak moritz_: I also have three new commits that build on the reverted one... :)
15:00 moritz_ masak: and pls segfaulted - that was my litmus test
15:00 patspam joined #perl6
15:00 masak moritz_: ok, will test that too.
15:00 cono masak: If it will not working, I will try to do it by substr :)
15:01 masak cono: that's the spirit! :)
15:01 moritz_ m:g// is known not to work, but I plan to tackle it this week (though maybe not in time for R*)
15:02 moritz_ masak: sorry for reverting your commit, but working modules were more important to me
15:02 masak moritz_: I understand fully.
15:02 bbkr rakudo: my @t = 1; @t ==> @t ==> @t; @t.say # is this correct behavior or a bug (one "1" expected)?
15:02 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1111␤»
15:02 moritz_ (it also broke SVG::Plot, and in turn Math::Model - which I need for my YAPC talk :-)
15:02 masak moritz_: sorry for not testing it properly -- I guess I was a Desperate Perl Programmer there for a while... :P
15:03 moritz_ np :-)
15:04 moritz_ I guess it's not really the fault of your code, but rather that it exposes a bug somewhere else
15:05 masak moritz_: let's see, has pmichaud expressed whether he'll build R* off Atlanta, or off HEAD?
15:05 PerlJam probably depends on how much stuff is broken whether it's even an option to build R* off of HEAD  :)
15:06 Lorn joined #perl6
15:06 moritz_ masak: I don't know if there's been a decision yet, but I'd be surprised if he broke the module installer and half of the modules
15:06 moritz_ masak: so I guess there'll be a point release, on which R* will be based
15:06 masak \o/
15:06 bbkr std: 1,
15:06 p6eval std 31846: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 116m␤»
15:06 masak then I'll keep working on the enums.
15:06 bbkr rakudo: 1,
15:06 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "1,"␤»
15:07 masak bbkr: I *think* that one's filed.
15:07 moritz_ I know that 1,, is filed
15:07 moritz_ erm, 1,,2
15:07 bbkr it is, i'm checking RT queue on Atlanta build
15:07 masak I discovered that my enum commits weren't enough for the book. needed .pick on enumerations as well. and then I added a bunch of other things too.
15:07 masak y'all'll like'em :)
15:08 moritz_ masak: you can likely move .pick from Hash to EnumMap or some such
15:09 masak moritz_: well, an enumeration object isn't an EnumMap, it has one.
15:09 moritz_ "huh"
15:09 masak bbkr: good work.
15:09 masak moritz_: it sounds odd, but it's *really* nice.
15:09 masak TimToady++
15:09 moritz_ masak: an enum is... a type object?
15:09 masak sort of.
15:09 masak yes, that's the best description.
15:10 masak it's an "instance" of a singleton class.
15:10 masak and it's undefined.
15:10 masak I wouldn't be surprised if it does Abstraction.
15:10 masak but I'm not sure of that.
15:14 masak hm, I see this meme sometimes: http://blogs.perl.org/users/jesse_thompson/2010/07/perl-12.html
15:14 masak not sure what I think about it.
15:15 PerlJam I tend to think "ick"
15:15 * moritz_ agrees with chromatic here
15:15 masak aye.
15:16 PerlJam Perl 10.07  <-- ubuntu style  :)
15:17 kokajxo joined #perl6
15:17 PerlJam I guess it would have to be 510.07 and 610.07 or something if both Perls were to adopt that
15:18 mscha rakudo: for 1,1.5...5 { .say }
15:18 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤1.5␤2␤2.5␤3␤3.5␤4␤4.5␤5␤»
15:18 mscha rakudo: for 1,1.5...^5 { .say }
15:18 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤»
15:18 mscha Hmm?
15:18 masak o.O
15:18 masak oh.
15:18 [Coke] if we're stuck with "Perl 6" at this point, I think "<compiler> Perl 6 <version>" is fine, and if they want to say "Perl 5 <12>" with a space, that would also be fine.
15:18 masak ...^ NYI
15:18 mscha Ah, sorry.
15:19 cono rakudo: my Str $format = "ccc"; while $format ~~ s/^^ (c) // { say $1 }
15:19 p6eval rakudo 9808d7:
15:19 p6eval ..OUTPUT«Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤…
15:20 breinbaas joined #perl6
15:20 moritz_ huh.
15:20 ltyr joined #perl6
15:20 moritz_ [Coke]: I guess it will be "Rakudo 2012.07 Perl 6.1.1" or so
15:20 PerlJam [Coke]:
15:21 PerlJam [Coke]: "stuck with" makes it sound like a bad thing.  Do you think that's so?
15:21 cono moritz_: no PMC error \o/
15:21 jnthn rakudo: my Str $format = "ccc"; while defined($format ~~ s/^^ (c) //) { say $1 }
15:21 p6eval rakudo 9808d7:
15:21 p6eval ..OUTPUT«Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤Any()␤…
15:21 * masak submits rakudobug
15:22 cono bug again? :(
15:22 cono ok, thank substr :)
15:22 cono than*
15:22 masak oh wait
15:22 masak cono: $0
15:22 cono oops :)
15:22 masak still,
15:22 masak it shouldn't loop that many times.
15:22 cono yup (
15:23 cono yeah, only 3 times
15:23 moritz_ rakudo: my Str $format = "ccc"; while defined($format ~~ s/^^ (c) //) { say $format }
15:23 p6eval rakudo 9808d7:
15:23 p6eval ..OUTPUT«cc␤c␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤␤�
15:23 justatheory joined #perl6
15:23 PerlJam I think mscha uncovered a bug.
15:23 cono \0 I guess
15:23 PerlJam rakudo:  say (^5).WHAT.say
15:23 PerlJam rakudo:  say @(^5).WHAT.say
15:23 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Range()␤1␤»
15:23 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«List()␤1␤»
15:24 moritz_ rakudo: my Str $format = "ccc"; while $format ~~ s/^^ (c) // { say $format; last }
15:24 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«cc␤»
15:24 PerlJam rakudo: say 1,1.5 ... @(^5)
15:24 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1234␤»
15:24 moritz_ rakudo: my Str $format = "ccc"; while $format ~~ s/^^ (c) // { say $format; last unless $format }
15:24 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«cc␤c␤␤»
15:24 cono solution :)
15:24 moritz_ rakudo: my Str $format = "ccc"; while say $format ~~ s/^^ (c) // { say $format; last unless $format }
15:24 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤cc␤1␤c␤1␤␤»
15:24 cono moritz_: where is the matched part?
15:25 moritz_ cono: gone with the wind?
15:25 * moritz_ -> out
15:26 cono rakudo: my Str $format = "ccc"; while $format ~~ s/^^ (c) // { say $/.Str; last unless $format }
15:26 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Any()<0x5bc7490>␤Any()<0x5bc7490>␤Any()<0x5bc7490>␤»
15:27 [Coke] PerlJam: I think that Perl 6 vs. Perl 5 is confusing, yes, and we could probably pick a better name if we tried really hard.... but there's no point now, because it's too late.
15:27 [Coke] so, I wouldn't put "stuck with" on our marketing slides, but yes. =-)
15:28 * [Coke] wonders why gabor's feed suddenly slammed planet perl six.
15:28 * [Coke] guesses retroactive tagging.
15:29 masak blog feeds are hard.
15:29 [Coke] *head bop*
15:29 [Coke] ... which looks really wierd as I have no hair.
15:30 masak :)
15:31 _macdaddy joined #perl6
15:33 ltyr just wondering, anyone heard of the io language?
15:34 * masak has
15:34 * rgrau__ too
15:34 * PerlJam too
15:34 masak _why used to mention it, during the time he inhabited this plane of existence.
15:35 ltyr any good?
15:35 ltyr just came across it today
15:36 ltyr it's relatively small
15:36 ltyr small footprint
15:36 masak haven't used it any.
15:36 ltyr i should give it a try
15:36 masak it looks cute, what with ifs and whiles not being built-ins.
15:37 ltyr yeah looks cute lol that's the word
15:37 rgrau__ pure OOP prototype based, and with somewhat smalltalk-ish syntax. I liked it, but didn't use for anything useful. install libs was a PITA IIRC
15:38 masak I can imagine that I would consider it a bad tool for some things after using it for a while. but I don't know what things beforehand.
15:39 masak it's fun to see what different languages use juxtaposition for. it's usually something fairly important. io uses it for the method-invocation dot.
15:39 masak Haskell uses it for the argument/parameter comma.
15:40 PerlJam awk uses it for ... string concatenation  :)
15:41 ltyr joined #perl6
15:41 [Coke] szabgab++ #screencasts
15:43 jnthn .oO( Perl 6 uses it for ... two terms in a row errors ;-) )
15:44 huf nested functin calls?
15:44 huf or that's not two terms in a row or that's not allowed anymore?
15:45 jnthn huf: Yeah, it's used for that two. They're not considered terms by the parser though, but list ops. Thus why it works. :-)
15:45 huf aha!
15:45 jnthn *too
15:45 masak jnthn: and many other very useful errors, which are basically 2TIAR errors with DWIM error logic.
15:46 jnthn masak: Aye, it's quite rare to see a naked 2TIAR error from STD.
15:46 masak std: "quite" "rare"
15:46 p6eval std 31846: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/tC8ouElK5b line 1:␤------> [32m"quite" [33m⏏[31m"rare"[0m␤    expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤  infix or meta-infix␤      statement modifier loop␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 115m␤»
15:46 jnthn :P
15:46 PerlJam heh
15:46 masak :)
15:47 macroron joined #perl6
15:48 masak std: time time
15:48 p6eval std 31846: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/EbbsnK9hvQ line 1:␤------> [32mtime [33m⏏[31mtime[0m␤    expecting any of:␤      bracketed infix␤  infix or meta-infix␤      statement modifier loop␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 115m␤»
15:49 jnthn std: time for beer
15:49 p6eval std 31846: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Undeclared routine:␤      'beer' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 115m␤»
15:49 jnthn Aww
15:50 * jnthn notes that undeclared routines are actually a compile time error now.
15:50 jnthn Wonder how many false positives we'll get on that when first putting it into Rakudo.
15:50 * jnthn suspects a few.
15:51 masak std: warn -- time for now
15:51 p6eval std 31846: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 115m␤»
15:51 jnthn rakudo: warn -- time for now
15:52 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &now␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/D59x0kaRtl␤»
15:52 jnthn now NYI?
15:52 jnthn Or STD out of sync with current DateTime spec?
15:56 masak I think now still exists.
15:56 Ross^ joined #perl6
15:56 masak but there was something blocking its implementation in Rakudo, IIRC.
16:00 [Coke] (my$i=11;$i++**2..*Z-$i+3,$i,7,$i+8,$i+3)>>.chr.say
16:00 [Coke] rakudo: (my$i=11;$i++**2..*Z-$i+3,$i,7,$i+8,$i+3)>>.chr.say
16:00 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«jnthn␤»
16:00 masak [Coke]++
16:01 Tene_ joined #perl6
16:01 jnthn Well, it has two letters in common with JAPH. :P
16:02 masak std: my$i=11
16:02 p6eval std 31846: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 117m␤»
16:02 jnthn eww
16:02 masak nah, 't's kosher. the sigil is a wb :)
16:02 masak so is the '='
16:03 jnthn Though not surprising.
16:03 jnthn ae
16:03 jnthn *aye
16:04 [Coke] æ
16:04 __sri joined #perl6
16:12 bbkr rakudo: class A {}; say (A.new, A.new).sort # is this correct output?
16:12 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«A()<0x82b09f0>A()<0x82b1170>␤»
16:13 eternaleye joined #perl6
16:13 masak bbkr: what would you expect it to sort on?
16:14 PerlJam bbkr: it looks correct to me 0x82b09f0 comes before 0x82b1170  :)
16:15 bbkr masak: IMO this is correct - sort used "~A.new" output, but I want to be sure before taking http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=71258 for tests
16:15 masak bbkr: looking.
16:16 masak bbkr: the ticket has two parts. the above shows that the first part is fixed.
16:16 justatheory joined #perl6
16:17 bbkr masak: second part works also
16:17 bbkr rakudo:
16:17 bbkr class A {}; multi sub cmp(A $a, A $b) { 1 }; say (A.new,
16:17 bbkr A.new).sort
16:17 p6eval rakudo 9808d7:  ( no output )
16:17 bbkr rakudo: class A {}; multi sub cmp(A $a, A $b) { 1 }; say (A.new, A.new).sort
16:17 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«A()<0x69f1460>A()<0x6a1d7a0>␤»
16:19 masak rakudo: class A { has $.x }; multi sub cmp(A $a, A $b) { $a.x <=> $b.x }; say (A.new(:x(2)), A.new(:x(3)), A.new(:x(1))).sort
16:19 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«A()<0x73823e0>A()<0x7384300>A()<0x73861e0>␤»
16:19 masak er :)
16:19 masak rakudo: class A { has $.x; method Str { $.x } }; multi sub cmp(A $a, A $b) { $a.x <=> $b.x }; say (A.new(:x(2)), A.new(:x(3)), A.new(:x(1))).sort
16:19 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«123␤»
16:19 masak \o/
16:20 masak bbkr: yes. it should be taken for tests.
16:20 pugssvn r31847 | Kodi++ | [t/spec] Fixed some Instant and Duration tests and fudged some for Rakudo.
16:21 bbkr BTW: how to get class instance memory address that can be assigned to variable?
16:21 jnthn .WHERE
16:21 bbkr rakudo: class A{}; A.new.WHERE.say
16:21 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«130402704␤»
16:22 bbkr jnthn: thanks!
16:24 pmurias ruoso: ping
16:26 pmurias ruoso: where should v6::mildew keep the executable?
16:27 mberends joined #perl6
16:29 masak mberends! \o/
16:30 mberends ahoy, masak? long time no chat for me.
16:30 masak yeah, same here.
16:31 * mberends hopes Rakudo * is not delayed as a result
16:31 masak greetings from sunny Lyr, Orust, Sweden.
16:32 jnthn masak: Oh, that's why the sun ain't here today. You have it. :P
16:32 cdarroch joined #perl6
16:32 cdarroch joined #perl6
16:32 masak we do indeed. but it's heading west fast.
16:32 jnthn o/ mberends :-)
16:33 mberends yo jnthn!
16:33 mberends we must remember #phasers tonight
16:33 Su-Shee you are not planning a delay, are you?
16:34 PerlJam no one is planning a delay that I know of.
16:34 * Su-Shee has written her ass off to get two articles out in time to spread the word of the release.
16:34 mberends no, happily everyone is keen to stick to the planned date
16:35 Su-Shee PerlJam: _that_ is a dangerous quote - we call it "noone is planning to build a wall" here in berlin ;)
16:35 masak mberends: thanks for the reminder about #phasers.
16:35 tylercurtis joined #perl6
16:35 PerlJam Su-Shee: I was about to ++ you for writing your ass off, but now I'm not so sure  :)
16:36 PerlJam Su-Shee++  (sorry about your ass ;)
16:36 pmurias masak: re yc post i think that the post is wrong in that lots of people like grammars without first doing needless formalisation
16:36 Su-Shee PerlJam: *hehe* well I'll get the stuff finished in time but if it takes a week longer, it doesn't really matter in terms of content.
16:36 Su-Shee unless you suddenly abandon sigils or something.
16:36 masak pmurias: I think so too.
16:37 jnthn Ooh, which post?
16:37 dalek rakudo: ac8a2ae | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/ (4 files):
16:37 dalek rakudo: Add Numeric.isNaN, Real.isNaN, Num.isNaN, and Complex.isNaN, and use them to
16:37 dalek rakudo: clean up the implementation of Numeric.ACCEPTS.
16:37 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ac8a2aea90fda49ec02cbe2df02141c828c5633a
16:39 pmurias masak: we did a bit of first to the formalisation the code that do approach at the compiler construction code at uni
16:39 pmurias masak: and it seems to be a very bad way
16:40 pmurias masak: as the ugliness of the formalism gets translated to ugly code
16:40 masak jnthn: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1543982
16:40 masak moritz_'s answer seems to cover many of these points.
16:40 masak moritz_++
16:40 [particle] colomon++ for isNaN... can i get .sign, too?
16:41 masak [particle]: there should be one.
16:41 [particle] rakudo: -1.sign.say
16:41 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:41 [particle] rakudo: 1.sign.say
16:41 masak [particle]: precedence.
16:41 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:42 [particle] ah
16:42 masak rakudo: say (-1).sign
16:42 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«-1␤»
16:42 [particle] rakudo: say -1.sign
16:42 PerlJam that gets people every time.
16:42 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«-1␤»
16:42 [particle] of course.  joy!
16:42 PerlJam It may be one of the first Perl 6 FAQs
16:42 colomon rakudo: say -1.sign
16:42 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«-1␤»
16:42 masak [particle]: that works, but not for the reason you might think.
16:42 colomon right
16:42 colomon it's -(1.sign)
16:42 masak nod
16:43 pmurias masak: and i don't that hand writing parsers should be tought at uni
16:43 colomon I can't decide if that is right or horribly, horribly wrong.
16:43 masak pmurias: why not?
16:43 [particle] rakudo: say -1.0.sign #curious
16:43 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«-1␤»
16:43 masak [particle]: what are you trying to prove? :)
16:43 colomon the crazy thing about -1.sign.say is that it is 1(1.sign.say)
16:43 [particle] just checking about floats and dots
16:43 ashleydev joined #perl6
16:44 masak [particle]: well, regardless of precedence, -1.0.sign would give -1
16:44 PerlJam pmurias: sure it should be taught.   You start off with "this way is painful" and you move towards "here are some tools that make it less painful" and hopefully end with "here are some tools that make it fun"
16:44 pmurias masak: it's the sort of things that people come up by themself
16:44 jnthn pmurias: I think people understanding the underlying concepts is useful. Teaching them there are tools that make it easier to utilize said concepts also matters too though. :-)
16:45 Intensity joined #perl6
16:45 PerlJam pmurias: I think you're a victim of a form of confirmation-bias.
16:45 [particle] rakudo: say sign -1
16:45 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«-1␤»
16:45 jnthn I disagree with the post though. If you're designing some language to parse, it's likely going to be iterative, in which case having a grammar in an easily modifiable form is helpful.
16:46 PerlJam pmurias: they'll come up with a hand-tooled parser by themselves *maybe*.  Not all CS people have the same experiences.
16:46 [particle] the precedence rules there will lead to the 's/./ / && .reverse' refactor
16:46 masak why am I getting only failures when running the spectests?
16:46 masak seems 'use Test' prompts the error 'Could not find sub &Nil'
16:46 masak anyone else getting this?
16:47 PerlJam masak: you're getting an older Test.pir from somewhere
16:47 masak I just rebuilt everything.
16:47 jnthn masak: It may be an installed one.
16:47 jnthn (That bit me.)
16:47 masak maybe I need to hose my ~/.perl6/lib too.
16:47 PerlJam masak: or at least search it for Test.*
16:48 masak hm, no Test.pir in there.
16:48 masak going for the installed one.
16:49 pmurias PerlJam: i don't like the here's the painful way and here's the better way approach
16:49 masak yah, works better now.
16:49 masak ooc, why should installed dirs trump . ?
16:49 pmurias PerlJam: it seems like first telling someone to dig a hole with their bare hands and then give them a shovel
16:50 bbkr rakudo: class Boo { method new() { } }; say Boo.new.WHAT;  # why Parcel? (testing http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=72836)
16:50 p6eval rakudo 9808d7: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
16:50 masak pmurias: isn't that how things generally are tought?
16:50 masak bbkr: because Nil is a Parcel.
16:50 jnthn masak: Securiy reasons apparently.
16:51 masak jnthn: ok. I'm sure you've thought about this. I'd just like to hear the security reason spelled out.
16:51 masak that is, if I have clearance. :)
16:51 jnthn masak: Denied!
16:51 masak damn!
16:51 bbkr masak: oh, so if that's the expected output then this ticket is fixed, right?
16:51 tylercurtis masak: is . in your PATH?
16:52 bbkr rakudo: class Boo { method foo() { } }; say Boo.foo.WHAT
16:52 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
16:52 masak tylercurtis: no. but as a programmer I have bigger control/responsibility over things like that.
16:52 pmurias masak: i had my Compiler Construction course tought that way
16:53 pmurias it wasn't very good
16:53 masak tylercurtis: in particular, I expect a ./Foo.pm to override and installed Foo.pm
16:53 jnthn masak: Yes, that's what you want for *development*, I agree. However, for production, I'm told that's a bad idea.
16:53 tylercurtis pmurias: it seems more like "here's how to write quicksort, but you should usually just use the built-in sorting function if your language provides one".
16:53 jnthn masak: Somebody who actually groks sysadmin can probably explain it. :-)
16:54 masak I'm willing to be convinced.
16:54 jnthn masak: I think it's something like, the version in the same directory of the script is more liable to being overwritten in some attack, whereas the globally installed one probably needs root privs to mess with.
16:55 jnthn masak: And having somebody replace your DBI with a trojan'd version that mails off whatever passwords are passed to it is probably a not nice thing.
16:55 kjeldahl joined #perl6
16:55 jnthn (Granted you'd have to have a vuln for that to be done, but security in depth and all that lot.)
16:56 masak jnthn: gotcha.
16:56 pmurias masak: the way i would prefer things to be taught is here's how use a grammar generator and they learn how to write one
16:57 bbkr rakudo: Rat.^add_method('x', method () {}).x
16:57 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in find_method('x')␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/6uXdX3v8xP␤»
16:57 jnthn pmurias: To write a grammar, or to write a grammar generator? :-)
16:57 pmurias grammar generator
16:57 jnthn bbkr: That ain't going to work out even if it handed back Nil. :-)
16:57 pmurias writing a grammar generator would be fun
16:58 pmurias handwriting a shift-reduce table wouldn't
16:59 bbkr jnthn: why? if so, should http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=72916 be rejected?
16:59 tylercurtis masak: As well as the security issues, what if you run a script that happens to be written in Perl 6 in lib/Foo/ and the script has a "use Bar;" and you just happen to have a Foo::Bar module in the project you're working on. You probably don't want to override Bar with Foo::Bar.
16:59 masak tylercurtis: good point.
17:00 jnthn bbkr: add_method doesn't return anything really, afaik
17:00 Tene masak: the traditional example is with $PATH for binaries.  If you have write access to your home directory, and you can trick the sysadmin to cd to your home dir and run 'ls', you could have a binary there that installs a backdoor as the sysadmin's privilege level, removes itself, and then invokes the 'real' ls.
17:00 pmichaud back again
17:00 jnthn bbkr: No, Null PMC Access is always wrong
17:00 jnthn bbkr: So don't reject the ticket for that
17:00 jnthn o/ pmurias
17:00 jnthn er
17:00 jnthn o/ pmichaud
17:00 masak pmichaud: \o
17:00 bbkr jnthn: ok, leaving unchanged.
17:01 colomon \o
17:01 jnthn #phasers in ~ 2 hours?
17:01 masak pmichaud: I'll have an S26 proposal ready for you Real Soon Now.
17:01 pmichaud masak: \o/
17:02 pmichaud RT #72916   .add_method really needs to return something.
17:02 pmurias masak: what were you tought in the "first do it the hard way then the good one way"
17:02 colomon geez, almost forgot about #phasers
17:02 ruoso joined #perl6
17:02 tylercurtis masak: On the other hand, explicitly overriding the search path is useful in some cases(although even better in many cases would be being able to say "override the search path for these modules to this place".
17:02 pmurias ruoso: ping
17:02 masak pmurias: not so much "the hard way" as "the unsugared way".
17:02 bbkr rakudo: 1/2.''()
17:02 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 1 passed, 2 (or more) expected␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/q4JqLeCoUY␤»
17:03 jnthn pmurias: Nil
17:03 jnthn gah!!!
17:03 * jnthn gives up tab completion
17:03 pmichaud jnthn: yes, I agree.
17:03 jnthn pmichaud: Nil I guess
17:03 jnthn pmichaud: I'm not going to worry about it though
17:03 jnthn pmichaud: When ClassHOW is re-written in NQP we get that for free.
17:04 Tene any plans to get the R* release mentioned on perl.org etc?
17:04 tylercurtis masak: And if you really want to be able to replace the installed Foo.pm with ./Foo.pm, there's always PERL6LIB="."
17:05 bbkr rakudo: [[]].''().perl.say
17:05 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 1 passed, 2 (or more) expected␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/IAjyiX0K2V␤»
17:05 pmichaud Tene: good thinking, I'll see about contacting the relevant folks.
17:06 PerlJam presumably since chromatic is re-launching perl.com, it would be good to mention the R* release there too
17:06 ingy greetings
17:06 PerlJam ingy: greets
17:06 ingy hi PerlJam
17:07 masak tylercurtis: aye. I'll probably do PERL6LIB='lib/' and have things in lib/ anyway.
17:08 bbkr rakudo: say ClassHOW.methods(ClassHOW) # RT #73142
17:08 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in inspect_str()␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/9x4OxadasK␤»
17:08 ingy how do you define how your class objects stringify/cast?
17:08 mberends masak: in summary, what are you proposing to do to S26? Remove the impossible bits?
17:08 PerlJam ingy: $obj.Str()
17:08 ingy PerlJam: sub Str{} ?
17:08 pmichaud ingy:  you mean the type objects?  someday it will be:     method Str($self:U) { ... }
17:08 pmichaud at present we don't have a way to do it.
17:08 ingy k
17:09 masak mberends: I promised pmichaud/szabgab to write up a grant proposal for implementing parts of S26 in Rakudo, possibly also updating S26 a bit.
17:09 justatheory joined #perl6
17:09 masak mberends: would be nice to hear if you have any opinions to share from implementing your Pod parser.
17:11 jnthn pmichaud: Also means that we probably don't want our type objects to be a different type to the things they produce as instances.
17:11 ingy masak: I grant you permission to implement S26 :P
17:11 masak :)
17:11 jnthn pmichaud: Which is a view I've been converging on anyway.
17:11 pmichaud jnthn: I don't think that's a requirement, but I'm fine with going that way if it seems righter
17:12 pmichaud the main purpose of the :U is simply to make sure it doesn't respond that way for .Str on a non-type object
17:12 jnthn pmichaud: It mostly hangs on if we can get ACCEPTS to reliably work on type objects.
17:12 pmichaud aye.
17:13 jnthn pmichaud: Something to try and go over at YAPC. :-)
17:13 mberends masak: It Pod::Parser would be a good post R* hackathon project for Pisa. It's definitely worth getting at least a subset operational, because currently there is no incentive for programmers to include Pod in their Perl 6 code.
17:13 jnthn pmichaud: 'cus it'll be easier in meatspace and maybe with a whiteboard. :-)
17:13 masak mberends: I'd like a simple way to get HTML JavaDoc-like output out of a Perl 6 module.
17:13 jnthn pmichaud: I'm going to have another crack at the role outers bug later on today too.
17:14 PerlJam jnthn++
17:14 jnthn Just ran out of energy last night after some hours on it.
17:14 tylercurtis Does Rakudo support the method name ($self: ) {...} form of method declaration yet?
17:14 jnthn should do
17:14 jnthn You having problems using it?
17:14 masak tylercurtis: it's been in for a long time, I think.
17:15 tylercurtis oops. Nevermind. I see my mistake.
17:15 jnthn Phew. :-)
17:15 pmichaud jnthn: okay.
17:15 jnthn OK, my hands need a little rest from the keyboard, and I need to do my Russian homework. bbiab :-)
17:16 ruoso pmurias, pong
17:16 * ruoso checking if the messages were lost or not
17:16 mberends masak: it's bitrotted, but the old Pod::Parser also had an HTML emitter, so recovery is likely to succeed.  And with a little bit of support from within Rakudo, it will probably perform more efficiently, which was a problem back in the day.
17:16 kokajxo joined #perl6
17:17 masak mberends: I remember.
17:17 ruoso pmurias, can it store the file alongside with the source? (as the .pmc)
17:17 ruoso maybe .pmc.so for the compiled code and .pmc for the code calling the .so
17:17 masak mberends: but serializing to HTML would not be enough. it'd also need context detection and styles.
17:20 pugssvn r31848 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Make the NaN tests more thorough.
17:24 PerlJam I started reworking the regexes chapter of the book.  I've changed the first example and I wanted some feedback.  It's at http://gist.github.com/492542
17:25 masak jnthn: it strikes me that the easiest way to solve the Makefile problems on Windows is to not create a Makefile on Windows.
17:25 pmurias ruoso: we could store the compiled code in the .pmc but wouldn't that impact code sharing?
17:25 [Coke] which makefile problems on windows?
17:26 pmurias ruoso: how much interop do we need for use v6-mildew to support?
17:26 * [Coke] has dug through parrot's makefile in the past to windows-friendify things.
17:26 pmichaud PerlJam: works for me
17:27 pmichaud I agree... "which makefile problems on windows?"
17:27 pmichaud my plan thus far this morning has been to keep using makefiles to build things in R*
17:27 pmurias stuff like sub foo {print $_[0]};use v6-mildew;sub bar {foo("hi\n") };no v6-mildew;
17:28 pmurias ruoso: one thing i'm unsure of is how is the v6 dist assembled
17:28 pmurias ruoso: what i currently have working is a modification on the one on CPAN
17:29 pmurias ruoso: but i think v6,v6::alpha and v6::mildew should be released separatly as v6::alpha bitrotted a bit and it's installation needs to be forced
17:31 markjreed joined #perl6
17:31 markjreed rakudo: say [+](2..7),8,9
17:31 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«44␤»
17:32 markjreed so functional notation no longer works on list operators.  intentional change, or bug?
17:32 pmichaud markjreed: I'm guessing bug.
17:32 pmichaud markjreed: depends on what the spec currently says.
17:34 thepler joined #perl6
17:34 markjreed per S03, it should still work as long as there's no whitespace between the operator and the first arg.
17:34 pmichaud then, bug.
17:34 markjreed I'll file a bug.
17:35 markjreed Thanks...
17:37 PerlJam rakudo: say [+]()
17:37 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:37 PerlJam rakudo: say [*]()
17:37 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:37 PerlJam markjreed: where does it say this in S03?
17:37 xabbu42 joined #perl6
17:39 pmichaud rakudo:   say [*](),2,3
17:39 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«6␤»
17:39 pmichaud I'd expect that to be "123"  and not "6"
17:40 masak why?
17:40 pmichaud because [*] is a normal list operator
17:40 Tene PerlJam: why not: my token word { ... } ?
17:40 pmurias ruoso: re messages were lost? i didn't get any thing on /msg
17:40 masak pmichaud: does the lack of whitespace matter?
17:41 pmichaud masak: compare   "say(),2,3"   and   "say (),2,3"
17:41 pmichaud (say is also a listop)
17:41 markjreed "If there is no whitespace, subsequent parsing depends on the syntactic category of the next item.  Parentheses (with or without a dot) turn the list operator into a function call instead"
17:41 kokajxo joined #perl6
17:42 PerlJam markjreed: thanks.
17:42 markjreed Seems to work for named functions, but not for metaops.
17:42 pmichaud right, it's undoubtedly a parsing issue for metaops.
17:42 masak afk
17:43 pmichaud we should see how STD.pm6 handles the parsing and follow that.
17:43 PerlJam Tene: Well, I was trying to avoid <word=&word> but I guess (<&word>) is easy enough to explain
17:43 markjreed left #perl6
17:44 pmichaud PerlJam (and others):  has anyone taken a look at docs/review-notes.txt ?
17:44 PerlJam pmichaud: briefly.
17:44 pmichaud explaining &word to non-Perl programmers might be tricky
17:44 pmichaud <$word> doesn't suffer from that problem.
17:44 markjreed joined #perl6
17:45 * markjreed submitted [perl #76758]
17:46 pmichaud anyone have any strong opinions about how to give release numbers to the R* series?
17:46 pmichaud or what our typical package name would be?
17:46 jnthn pmichaud: The problem is that the makefiles pls generates don't work on nmake
17:46 pmichaud jnthn: oh, then perhaps we need to make pls smarter
17:47 pmichaud jnthn: although in that case I can see the advantage of avoiding make altogether.
17:47 PerlJam pmichaud: Rakudo-Star-2010.07 (I don't know if that's a strong opinion, but that's what I think about it right now)
17:47 jnthn pmichaud: Worse, I also discovered that Zavolaj's Makefile doesn't work either.
17:47 pmichaud PerlJam: .lc, perhaps?
17:47 PerlJam pmichaud: sure, that works
17:48 jnthn pmichaud: Which won't be fixed just by fixing please.
17:48 jnthn uh
17:48 jnthn pls
17:48 jnthn :-)
17:48 tylercurtis pmichaud: (Rakudo *), (Rakudo *+1), (Rakudo *+2) ... *; # Not a strong opinion, and somewhat of a joke, but it's a thought. :)
17:48 Tene * ** *** ****
17:48 PerlJam ***1 ***2 ***3 ***4 ***5  :)
17:48 Tene or just go through the ops: *, +, =
17:49 pmichaud Tene: what happens when we get to &[R*] then ?  ;-)
17:49 PerlJam heh
17:49 pmichaud (i.e.,  the 'R*' op)
17:49 Tene Or continue to name it after class literals, *, Int, Str
17:49 Tene Rakudo ClassHOW
17:49 jnthn By Rakudo *********************** it'll be hard to read which release we're talking about. :-)
17:49 pmichaud yes, I'm also curious if we want code names for the releases.
17:50 huf jnthn: surely uou can do '*'x$version_nr
17:50 PerlJam As soon as people make the connection between * and Whatever, we'll get jokes like "Perl 6 ... whatever"
17:50 pmichaud PerlJam: that will still be better than "Perl 6 ... DNF"
17:50 [particle] yes, but at runtime that joke will throw an exception
17:51 PerlJam pmichaud: I'm perfectly happy with rakudo-star-2010.07 and no "code name"  (where did the multiple moniker meme come from anyway?)
17:52 mberends I think very few people remember what the code name means. Oslo, when was that again?
17:52 [particle] there's little reason for a code name if a release happens on a defined schedule
17:52 tylercurtis pmichaud: when we get to &[R*], it's Rakudo R*, which behaves identically to Rakudo *.
17:53 [particle] if feature completion determines the release date, then a release code name makes more sense
17:53 PerlJam [particle]: we should tell the ubuntu folks that.
17:53 Ross^ joined #perl6
17:54 ruoso pmurias, I think it would be cool if v6::alpha could be splitted from v6
17:54 pmichaud in the ubuntu case, it's far easier to search for "lucid" than "10.04", though.
17:54 [particle] yes, agreed
17:54 PerlJam (I really have no idea what the ubuntu code names are, I always have to look them up.  But I do remember 9.04, 9.10, 10.04, etc.)
17:54 jnthn pmichaud: I'd go without code names for R* for now.
17:54 jnthn imho
17:54 [particle] in the future, if we need code names for releases, we can lazily evaluate them for the past releases
17:54 PerlJam [particle]++
17:55 pmichaud when I'm looking for a bug report,  "screencast ubuntu lucid"  is much better for searching than  "screencast ubuntu 10.04"
17:55 Su-Shee make butterfly species the code names.
17:55 [particle] butterflies are for perl 6, we need codenames for rakudo *
17:55 [particle] star names.
17:56 pmurias ruoso: currently v6.pm is a 17 line file which redispatches import
17:56 [particle] rakudo * "james woods"
17:56 PerlJam pmichaud: really? I just tried it and the results, though different in detail, look comparable.
17:56 [particle] rakudo * "marilyn monroe"
17:56 kokajxo caml latin names
17:56 kokajxo camel*
17:56 Su-Shee Can I get rakudo * "johnny depp"? :)
17:56 plainhao joined #perl6
17:57 pmichaud PerlJam: my example was perhaps not the best.  But having the extra handle does often make a difference.
17:57 [particle] perl is moving away from the camel, as that's an o'reilly trademark
17:57 ruoso pmurias, I think fglock wouldn't mind if v6::alpha was shipped as a different module
17:57 pmichaud also, the camel is more associated with perl 4+5
17:57 colomon star names in alphabetical order works for me.
17:57 pmichaud oooooooh
17:57 pmichaud star names
17:57 pmichaud I likey.
17:57 PerlJam colomon: so ... "rakudo * wolf-359" ?
17:57 pmichaud "Antares"  "Betelgeuse"  "Castor"
17:58 PerlJam rakudo * "sirius"
17:58 [particle] pmichaud: i thought we had talked about that before, that's why i started riffing on it with hollywood stars off the bat
17:58 pmichaud [particle]: maybe I missed it or wasn't present
17:58 [particle] i think we start with Arcturus
17:58 huf use old hollywood stars for a touch of class
17:58 pmurias ruoso: creating tarballs and showing them to fglock for approval/releasing is a resonable plan?
17:58 colomon PerlJam: what pmichaud said.
17:58 ruoso pmurias, yes...
17:58 ingy rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP {^ <r> $}; rule r { 'abc' } }; class A { method r($/) { say ~$/ }; G.parse('abc', :actions(A))
17:59 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 22␤»
17:59 [particle] it's a summer star (northern hemisphere) and you get to it with the phrase "arc to arcturus" by following an arc of stars in the big and little dippers
17:59 tylercurtis What's the origin of Rakudo's name?
17:59 [Coke] (code name)-- -- --
17:59 ingy rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP {^ <r> $}; rule r { 'abc' } }; class A { method r($/) { say ~$/ } }; G.parse('abc', :actions(A))
17:59 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«abc␤»
17:59 ingy rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP {^ <r> $}; rule r { 'abc' } }; class A { method r($/) { say ~$/ } }; G.parse('abc', :actions(A.new))
17:59 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«abc␤»
17:59 PerlJam tylercurtis: It's kudos to the sun god Ra
17:59 ingy \o/
17:59 [particle] there should be a module or utility to convert release dates and code names
18:00 [particle] so people can ask rakudo what code name 2010.07 is and vice versa
18:00 pmurias ruoso: do we need mildew code with v6-mildew to see the surrounding p5 lexicals?
18:00 [Coke] (wolf 359) there is a Wolf Road here in Albany, NY, kind of a commercial hub. There is ALMOST enough room to put something at 359 Wolf. I want to put in a geek bar or something.
18:01 ingy rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP {^ <r> $}; rule r { 'abc' } }; class A { method r($/) { say ~$/ } }; $a = A.new; G.parse('abc', :actions($a))
18:01 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$a' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/YC5zmZEqZL:22)␤»
18:01 ingy rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP {^ <r> $}; rule r { 'abc' } }; class A { method r($/) { say ~$/ } }; my $a = A.new; G.parse('abc', :actions($a))
18:01 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«abc␤»
18:02 pmurias ruoso: is the goal with v6-mildew to allow writing a hybrid program or just a convenient way to run a script?
18:02 PerlJam tylercurtis: really, it's japanese.  A contraction of rakuda-do -- way of the camel (or something like that)
18:02 PerlJam tylercurtis: See http://rakudo.org/node/18
18:03 ingy rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP {^ <r> $}; rule r { 'abc' } }; class A { has $v is rw; method r($/) { $.v = ~$/ } }; my $a = A.new; G.parse('abc', :actions($a)); say $a.v
18:03 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«Method 'v' not found for invocant of class 'A'␤  in 'A::r' at line 22:/tmp/qzcqyDEObl␤  in 'G::r' at line 22:/tmp/qzcqyDEObl␤  in 'G::TOP' at line 22:/tmp/qzcqyDEObl␤  in 'Grammar::parse' at line 5532:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/qzcqyDEObl␤»
18:03 pmichaud tylercurtis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakudo_Perl#Name
18:03 ingy rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP {^ <r> $}; rule r { 'abc' } }; class A { has $.v is rw; method r($/) { $.v = ~$/ } }; my $a = A.new; G.parse('abc', :actions($a)); say $a.v
18:03 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«abc␤»
18:03 ingy ok, that's nice...
18:03 isBEKaml joined #perl6
18:03 ingy I can keep parse state in my actions object
18:04 pmichaud even better, keep it in your match objects
18:04 timbunce joined #perl6
18:04 ingy pmichaud: I haven't bought into that...
18:04 pmichaud rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP {^ <r> $}; rule r { 'abc' } }; class A { method r($/) { make ~$/ } };  G.parse('abc', :actions(A)).ast.say;
18:04 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
18:05 pmichaud oops
18:05 pmichaud oh, yeah.
18:05 tylercurtis pmichaud++ PerlJam++, thanks. I actually looked at the wikipedia page and failed to notice that paragraph.
18:05 pmichaud since it did TOP
18:05 ingy pmichaud: I'm trying to leave as much p6 out of p6r as possible :)
18:05 pmichaud ah, okay.
18:06 pmurias sorear: how can i update stage0 after renaming some modules?
18:08 pmichaud #phasers in.. 52?
18:08 ruoso pmurias, wow... if we could make it see surrounding p5 lexicals it would be JUST AWESOME
18:08 jnthn pmichaud: *nod*
18:08 pmichaud okay.  time for lunch, then #phasers
18:08 ruoso pmurias, it certainly wasn't the initial plan, but if it's possible, it certainly is worth it...
18:10 tylercurtis masak: are you around?
18:10 masak tylercurtis: I think so.
18:10 tylercurtis Does ufo attempt to detect dependency cycles?
18:10 masak no.
18:11 sorear pmurias: make reboot is the safe way
18:11 masak tylercurtis: it's not safe for it to do so, because given the way it finds dependencies, the risk of false positives is high.
18:15 tylercurtis masak: alright. Thanks. Reading ufo's source is evidently not the solution to my optimization ordering needs for my GSoC, then, although it'll probably help with the sorting part. :)
18:16 masak tylercurtis: detecting cycles using the algorithm from ufo is not only feasible, but simple.
18:16 masak but it doesn't currently do it.
18:17 pmurias sorear: make: *** No rule to make target `stage0/STD/Actions.pm', needed by `stage0/.stamp'.  Stop.
18:18 pmurias ruoso: so what do we have left in the plan, v6-mildew and Forest::Gtk2?
18:19 pmurias ruoso: it might make sense to make the v6-mildew code see the surrounding lexicals
18:20 ruoso I think in the first version, we make the simpler...
18:21 ruoso pmurias, and if there's time left we add support for seeing the surrounding lexicals
18:22 pmurias after Forest::Gtk2? or before that?
18:22 tylercurtis masak: by keeping track of the path from the initial vertex to the current and checking for the current node being in it before now? Or is there a more space-efficient way?
18:24 masak tylercurtis: hold on. recalling specifics.
18:24 ruoso pmurias, I think it can be after Forest::Gtk2
18:24 pmurias releasing Forest::Gtk2 is mostly a matter of thinking how the API should look like
18:25 masak tylercurtis: right. you have to keep a stack and then check for membership in that stack. just checking for visitedness, is not enough, as can be seen from a diamond A->B->D, A->C->D pattern.
18:27 tylercurtis masak: Thanks. I'll use that approach. If it turns out there's a better algorithm, I'm blaming it on you, okay? ;)
18:28 masak tylercurtis: it's a deal :)
18:28 masak tylercurtis: you abort on the first cycle you find, right?
18:30 tylercurtis masak: Right.
18:30 masak then it should be enough, and optimal.
18:31 masak StackOverflow seems to like Tarjan's strongly conncted components algorithm. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/261573/best-algorithm-for-detecting-cycles-in-a-directed-graph
18:31 masak but it seems to be overkill for this particular use case IMO.
18:32 masak oh wait. that algorithm actually seems pretty close to what we've been discussing. :)
18:34 tylercurtis It does. :)
18:35 pmurias ruoso: sent a patch to fglock to make v6.pm pluggable
18:42 ruoso cool
18:50 mberends masak: The most practical S26 change that I want to suggest is to also accept a subset of Perl 5 Pod, provided it is enclosed by =pod and =cut (make them aliases for =begin pod and =end pod).
18:50 lue joined #perl6
18:50 lue wello there #perl6 o/
18:51 mberends helluo!
18:52 pmurias sorear: any idea how to get around that makefile error?
18:52 masak mberends: I'll have to think about that. I think I see whence you're coming, but it also serves to make S26 (and implementations) more bloated, not less.
18:52 * masak wonders whether http://www.reddit.com/user/Dominate_Me_Perl_6 is a net PR win or not :)
18:52 masak huello!
18:52 pmurias masak: cycles in a graf just check for grey colored nodes
18:54 frettled mberends o/
18:54 mberends \o frettled
18:54 frettled masak: that's definitively a net PR win
18:55 lue .oO(Woah! Only 4 ops!)
18:55 masak` joined #perl6
18:55 frettled and 138 noops!
18:55 pmurias masak: it demonstrates that your PR efforts won over the reddit crowd ;)
18:55 frettled lue: ironically, the noops are the doers ;)
18:56 lue last time I was here there were ~14. And we had <100 people here.
18:56 patrickas lue I think there is less need for ops now ...
18:57 literal joined #perl6
18:57 lue before The Boot, we had 200+ people and 16 ops.
18:57 moritz_ lue: since we have now firm control over the channel via chanserv, we don't have to display our arms
18:58 lue .oO[ I guess I can finally lop off those stupid limbs then :) ]
18:59 [particle] do we have enough folks with rights?
18:59 moritz_ [particle]: yes
18:59 lue alright, just wondering what happened.
18:59 [particle] excellent.
18:59 mberends reminder: #phasers
18:59 moritz_ oooh
18:59 moritz_ forgot that
18:59 frettled mberends: wozzatforthen?
19:00 mberends frettled: here, take this /join command and do something with it ;)
19:01 frettled mberends: ooh
19:01 lue or if your client is cool, click here -> #phasers
19:01 frettled my client is so cool that it won't take clicks from nobody
19:02 azert0x joined #perl6
19:03 patrickas my client pretends to be cool (changed cursor over the name) but did nothing when I clicked! Such a poser!
19:03 isBEKaml right click and join? :)
19:04 jnthn pmichaud: #phasers time, if you're about.
19:04 isBEKaml damn, I spoiled the joke! :D
19:05 patrickas right click and join is for regular clients! all the cool kids just click nowadays :-)
19:05 lue .oO(ooh, I'm on the lost moon of Poosh. This'll be a fun #phasers for me)
19:05 nathanchrisman joined #perl6
19:06 cono joined #perl6
19:06 isBEKaml whoa, I can click too! :)
19:11 justatheory joined #perl6
19:11 alfieANDfred joined #perl6
19:14 timbunce joined #perl6
19:15 lue rakudo: my postfix:<!>($a) { [*] 1..$a }; say 5! # 120
19:15 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed my at line 22, near "postfix:<!"␤»
19:16 masak lue: 'sub'
19:16 lue rakudo: sub postfix:<!>($a) { [*] 1..$a }; say 5! # 120
19:16 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«120␤»
19:16 masak rakudo: my sub postfix:<!>($a) { [*] 1..$a }; say 5! # 120
19:16 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«120␤»
19:16 sjohnson joined #perl6
19:16 sjohnson i got kicked out *sad face*
19:17 sjohnson power struggle
19:17 masak hugme: hug sjohnson
19:17 * hugme hugs sjohnson
19:17 sjohnson heheh
19:17 lue I love Perl6 every time :) [who knows how much code it would take in other languages]
19:17 pmurias sjohnson: were did you get kicked out from?
19:17 frettled sjohnson: the good guys won
19:17 sjohnson audrey t.
19:18 frettled sjohnson: nopes, just a nickstealer
19:18 patrickas sjohnson someone pretending to be audery t :-(
19:18 sjohnson thought she was makin a pugs comeback
19:18 sjohnson woe are us
19:18 frettled sjohnson: Audrey's nick is au|irc / au|irc_
19:18 frettled And she's been making a Perl 6 comeback :)
19:19 masak au++ \o/
19:19 sjohnson #perl6... the source of inexhaustible good news
19:19 sjohnson new slogan
19:19 patrickas There can't be enough ++es for au++ !
19:22 sjohnson heh.  i have a white-belt in perl6 knowledge
19:22 lue .u ✩
19:22 phenny U+2729 STRESS OUTLINED WHITE STAR (✩)
19:24 whee joined #perl6
19:24 jnthn lol...stress out :-)
19:24 lue .u 1F4A9
19:24 phenny lue: Sorry, no results for '1F4A9'.
19:25 isBEKaml .u U+1F4A9
19:25 phenny isBEKaml: Sorry, no results
19:25 isBEKaml blah!
19:25 lue I forgot. phenny hates codepoints >FFFF
19:25 jnthn Also that one is new in Unicode 6.0.
19:26 lue 6?!? # does *Perl*6 support it?
19:27 frettled Amazingly, that symbol displayed nicely on my Mac, which is running the previous minor version of MacOS X.  :)
19:28 lue must...update....fonts..
19:29 patrickas lue: for some reason I don't mind my font not being able to display U+1F4A9 :-)
19:29 arestrrtor joined #perl6
19:30 lue Who knows? It could be a secret symbol for entry into the elite sectors of TPF. :)
19:30 frettled lue: it is.
19:31 lue :D
19:41 jaldhar joined #perl6
19:42 timbunce joined #perl6
19:44 timbunce rakudo: class C { method alt () { my $url='dbd'; $url ~~ s/^db//; } }; C.alt();
19:44 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a:  ( no output )
19:44 masak timbunce: 'say'
19:45 timbunce I get "Null PMC access in find_method('new')" so I'm happy (or sad) to see nothing, if you see what I mean :)
19:46 timbunce guess I should clean, pull, and rebuild my rakudo and see if that helps. I trust trunk is in good shape at the moment.
19:46 moritz_ s/trunk/master/ but yes
19:47 lue p6eval right now avoids printing errors (IIRC).
19:47 timbunce lue: oh, odd. why?
19:47 moritz_ lue: no
19:47 lue so that problem has been fixed?
19:47 moritz_ rakudo: rakudo: class C { method alt () { my $url='dbd'; $url ~~ s/^db//; say $url } }; C.alt();
19:47 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "rakudo: cl"␤»
19:48 moritz_ lue: for two weeks, atleast
19:48 moritz_ rakudo: class C { method alt () { my $url='dbd'; $url ~~ s/^db//; say $url } }; C.alt();
19:48 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«d␤»
19:48 lue hrm. I didn't notice :) /me stupid
19:49 timbunce Is "auto::gettext -       Does your configuration include gettext...dyld: lazy symbol binding failed: Symbol not found: _libintl_bindtextdomain" from configure normal?
19:50 timbunce (for parrot)
19:50 pmurias sorear: should the makefile protect me against breaking stages?
19:50 moritz_ timbunce: not normal on my system
19:53 jnthn mberends: ping
19:54 mberends jnthn: pong
19:54 jnthn mberends: Got a moment to advise me on something Makefile-y?
19:54 mberends yes
19:54 jnthn LIBSYSTEM = $(shell $(PERL6_EXE) -e 'print @*INC[2]')
19:54 jnthn LIBUSER   = $(shell $(PERL6_EXE) -e 'print @*INC[1]')
19:54 jnthn These are the lines that nmake trips up over
19:54 jnthn If I comment them out, then it builds fine
19:55 jnthn But of course then can't install.
19:55 jnthn For pls makefiles, I guess we can just interpolate those directly in
19:55 jnthn (since pls generates the Makefile)
19:55 jnthn I'm not quite sure what to do with this one.
19:55 mberends what about switching to pls?
19:56 lue hrm, it's not exactly clear how to add different date/time systems (at least in S32). Is there any information how to go about this?
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19:56 moritz_ lue: just define your own types
19:57 lue ah, ok. Thought it (DateTime) was going to be extensible or something.
19:57 [Coke] rakudo: say '[Coke]--'
19:57 jnthn mberends: Well, if you're not too attached to the Zavolaj makefile or there's nothing special in it that the one pls generates wouldn't do...?
19:57 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«[Coke]--␤»
19:57 mberends jnthn: I'll test pls with Zavolaj on Linux now
19:57 moritz_ [Coke]++ # release
19:58 jnthn mberends: OK, thanks.
19:58 [Coke] moritz_: no, that's what I was trying to fix. =-)
19:58 mberends jnthn: or do we mean ufo?
19:58 jnthn mberends: This potentially gives me one less thing to have to fix on Windows.
19:58 jnthn mberends: pls includes something ufo-like
19:58 jnthn mberends: Though it's copy pasta rather than a call out to ufo.
19:59 [Coke] jnthn: if you still need windows help tomorrow, leave me a note. I can resurrect my wintop.
19:59 mberends jnthn: well ufo is smaller, and gives Zavolaj fewer dependencies
19:59 [Coke] (it's strawberry perl, but I can test with nmake instead, which should get most of the same issues.)
20:00 jnthn [Coke]: Thanks! :-)
20:00 [Coke] here's hoping you don't need me. =-)
20:03 jnthn mberends: fewer dependencies as in...?
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20:04 timbunce jnthn & mberends: the 'print @*INC[1]' tripped me up for a while because I had other dirs in PERL6LIB. Would be best to be able to ask perl6 directly what the right dirs are, rather than assume @*INC[1] and @*INC[2]. (Hopefully pls doesn't have that problem)
20:05 mberends jnthn: I wrongly thunk pls depended on an external ufo
20:06 mberends timbunce: I agree, we just have to ask perl6 another way
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20:11 alester Who is releasing Rakudo *?
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20:11 moritz_ alester: I hope pmichaud does :-)
20:11 alester Does he/she have an announcement to go with it?
20:12 pmichaud me
20:12 pmichaud I'm writing the announcement tonight.
20:12 alester AnythingI can help with?
20:13 moritz_ pmichaud: http://nopaste.snit.ch/22351 -- the part that populates %h works, but an :i modifier is ignored - am I dooing something obvious wrong?
20:14 pmichaud it's possible the regex engine doesn't look at %REGEX_MODIFIERS yet for :i
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20:15 pmichaud alester: I'll post an advance copy soon -- reviews and patches will be very welcome
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20:17 moritz_ pmichaud: it doesn't respect :s either
20:17 moritz_ $ ./perl6 -e '$_ = "a b cd"; s:g:s/a b/X/; .say'
20:17 moritz_ a b cd
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20:17 [Coke] pmichaud: can I close 49171? seems like ROADMAP is a better indicator these days.
20:17 pmichaud [Coke]: +1
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20:35 timbunce pls? Anyone got a link for pls, especially how to create a distro? (It's not mentioned on http://perl6.org/whatever/ where proto is listed)
20:37 moritz_ timbunce: currently it's a branch in the proto repo. And as long as it's in a branch, I'm reluctant to make a link to it
20:38 timbunce moritz_: fair enough. I want to make a distro for the DBDI stuff. Would you recommend I use pls?
20:38 timbunce moritz_: it's not urgent
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20:40 moritz_ timbunce: pls and proto are pretty easy... if you have no dependencies, and just normal .pm or .pm6 files (no extra build actions required), you don't need to do anythiing to be compliant with them
20:40 dalek book: 8b98b2e | duff++ |  (23 files):
20:40 dalek book: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/book
20:40 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/8b98b2e473379933e513bbbc65caf04fd476f639
20:41 timbunce moritz_: I depend on zavolaj
20:41 dalek joined #perl6
20:42 moritz_ timbunce: echo zavolaj > deps.proto; git add depds.proto
20:42 timbunce moritz_: ok, thanks. Reading the docs now :)
20:44 moritz_ timbunce: how is dbdi doing on rakudo master?
20:46 timbunce 'tis grand thanks!
20:48 dalek nqp-rx: da0c21f | moritz++ | src/Regex/P6Regex/Actions.pm:
20:48 dalek nqp-rx: Quotes should respect :i
20:48 dalek nqp-rx: Also substituted a Q:PIR block with pir::clone - no functional changes here.
20:48 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/da0c21f3d03b1295559b21d246659b5615a64019
20:48 dalek nqp-rx: 120f566 | moritz++ | t/nqp/50-regex.t:
20:48 dalek nqp-rx: add tests for :i and quoted strings
20:48 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/120f566a70060ea8bd8c3d72291929926ef8efdd
20:48 PerlJam I wonder if it might be useful to ship dbdi with R* even though it's not usable for anything.
20:48 dalek nqp-rx: a11bb45 | moritz++ | src/stage0/ (3 files):
20:48 dalek nqp-rx: update bootstrap files with :i + quotes fixes
20:48 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/a11bb45d2dc1b1d8b45f4eb89e9deb11f59777a6
20:54 masak food &
20:54 moritz_ PerlJam: -1. R* is about being useful
20:54 moritz_ http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=76758
20:54 moritz_ is that valid?
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20:55 jnthn moritz_: No, I don't think so.
20:56 jnthn Meta-operators aren't function invocations.
20:56 pmichaud_ moritz_: note that we won't have a new nqp-rx before R*
20:56 jnthn Well, they are but not /that/ way.
20:56 moritz_ pmichaud_: I know
20:56 pmichaud_ okay, just checking.
20:56 moritz_ I just don't want to forget fixing stuff :-)
20:56 moritz_ there'll be a life after R*, I hope :-)
20:56 pmichaud_ jnthn: S03 is pretty clear that [+]  is just a listop.
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20:57 pmichaud_ and parses like a listop
20:57 jnthn pmichaud_: I'm pretty sure Rakudo parses it the same way as STD.
20:58 pmichaud we should check that then.
20:58 jnthn pmichaud: Though it's possible that we missed something.
20:59 pmichaud I know that I'd expect   say [+](),2,3   to output "123" and not "6"
20:59 moritz_ getting a parse tree out of STD seems non-trivial
20:59 jnthn Anyway, not urgent for now, but I guess let's leave the ticket open to review.
20:59 pmichaud er, "023"
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20:59 jnthn pmichaud: OK, that surprises me a bit, I'd figured it was just a list prefix operator
20:59 pmichaud it is a list prefix operator
20:59 pmichaud and like all list prefix operators, immediate parens treat it like a function call
20:59 jnthn Ah, OK
20:59 pmichaud thus    say(1),2,3   outputs "1" and not "123"
21:00 jnthn Then Rakudo musta missed something STD has.
21:00 pmichaud (since 'say' is a listop.)
21:00 jnthn Or STD is missing something.
21:00 pmichaud yes, it's entirely possible STD is missing it as well.
21:01 jnthn oh, I think that may be what the last time of prefix_circumfix_meta_operator:reduce rule is about.
21:01 jnthn *line
21:01 jnthn OK, then I agree, it's a bug
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21:07 colomon pmichaud: does this look like a reasonably good way of testing iterator speed?  http://gist.github.com/492860
21:08 pmichaud colomon: just time it using for or map
21:08 pmichaud since that's the common case
21:08 moritz_ colomon: why do you ++ in the loop? that just adds noise
21:08 pmichaud I would time it with
21:08 pmichaud for 1..10000 { 1; }
21:09 pmichaud again, benchmark the common case
21:09 pmichaud or even
21:09 pmichaud for 1..10000 { my $a = $_ + 1; }
21:09 pmichaud (to make sure it actually does something with the value)
21:10 colomon rakudo: say [+] 1..10000
21:10 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a:  ( no output )
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21:11 Tene rakudo: say [+] 1..100
21:11 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«5050␤»
21:11 colomon Tene: it's just too slow.
21:11 Tene colomon: right
21:14 colomon pmichaud: is there an easy way to generate a list incorporating an iterator?  I'm hoping to test iterator speed without recompiling rakudo a bunch.
21:14 pmichaud colomon: sure (more)
21:15 pmichaud Range.list is just
21:15 pmichaud multi method list() { $.iterator.list }
21:16 pmichaud i.e., if you create an Iterator, then $iterator.list gives you a List using that iterator.
21:16 colomon great.  pmichaud++
21:19 colomon heh.  just occurs to me the 1..* case can be really really fast...
21:20 * pmichaud doesn't see it yet.
21:20 colomon don't have to check for end conditions ever
21:20 pmichaud oh, right.
21:20 pmichaud yes
21:21 colomon more than half the code goes away.
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21:21 [Coke] would anyone be upset if I opened all the RT tickets we have before R*?
21:21 pmichaud [Coke]: okay by me, I think.
21:21 [Coke] (so that we can easily identify the new ones because they'll be in the new bucket?)
21:21 pmichaud I think I can get a similar result with a date-based search, though?
21:22 [Coke] all the *new* tickets, that is.
21:22 pmichaud anyway, I  wouldn't be upset.
21:22 [Coke] pmichaud: it would be kind of a PITA, but yes, you could do that.
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21:23 * [Coke] bets orelse is low hanging fruit.
21:23 lichtkind why isnt going web.pm into R* ?
21:23 pmichaud I bet it's not :-)
21:24 Tene lichtkind: doesn't run on R*, only on alpha
21:24 Tene lichtkind: if it was updated, that would be great.
21:24 lichtkind Tene: thanks, inded
21:26 [Coke] rakudo: my @a = <one two>; @a[-1] = 'zero'; @a.perl
21:26 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/Udd9hXZOxN␤»
21:26 Tene rakudo: my @a = <one two>; @a[*-1] = 'zero'; @a.perl
21:27 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a:  ( no output )
21:27 Tene rakudo: my @a = <one two>; @a[*-1] = 'zero'; say @a.perl
21:27 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«["one", "zero"]␤»
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21:27 [Coke] Yes, I know. I'm checking an RT. :P
21:28 PerlJam The error message is LTA if nothing else
21:28 pmichaud PerlJam: what would you have expected?
21:28 Tene [Coke]: I expected so.
21:28 pmichaud rakudo:  my @a;  say @a[-1];
21:28 [Coke] std: my @a = <one two>; @a[-1] = 'zero'; @a.perl
21:28 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a:  ( no output )
21:28 p6eval std 31848: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unsupported use of [-1] subscript to access final element; in Perl 6 please use [*-1] at /tmp/_S14_hLpVq line 1:␤------> [32mmy @a = <one two>; @a[-1][33m⏏[31m = 'zero'; @a.perl[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 118m␤»
21:29 [Coke] that one.
21:29 PerlJam pmichaud: that!
21:29 PerlJam :)
21:29 pmichaud ah yes, that's a compile-time error that we don't currently catch.
21:29 pmichaud but there's also
21:29 pmichaud std:  my $x = -1;  my @a = <one two>;  @a[$x] = 'zero';
21:29 p6eval std 31848: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
21:30 [Coke] rakudo: IO.WHAT.say
21:30 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a:  ( no output )
21:31 pmichaud ooc, I wonder if it's worth creating a #perl6-eval channel where p6eval lives (in addition to #perl6) where people can try out eval strings
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21:31 PerlJam so we have a place to shunt the noise?
21:31 pmichaud yes, but it can still be public for people who want to watch
21:32 pmichaud (otherwise it can be done with /query #p6eval)
21:32 [Coke] colomon: can you review #68140 - your bug report is confusing.
21:32 pmichaud probably not worth the effort
21:33 [Coke] phenny: ask colomon can you review #68140 - your bug report is confusing.
21:33 phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when colomon is around.
21:33 colomon [Coke]: looking at it atm
21:33 phenny colomon: 21:33Z <[Coke]> ask colomon can you review #68140 - your bug report is confusing.
21:34 pmichaud jnthn: ping
21:34 colomon ./perl6 fdsfsgdsfds.pl
21:34 colomon ===SORRY!===
21:34 colomon Unable to open filehandle from path 'fdsfsgdsfds.pl'
21:34 jnthn pmichaud: pong
21:34 colomon Basically, if you attempt to execute a script that isn't there, that's the message you get.
21:35 pmichaud jnthn: nm, I think I answered my own question.  It was about using 'cd' in Makefiles (appears to work)
21:35 colomon it's a fine message if you know the script isn't there, but it can be confusing if you think it is.
21:35 colomon (what happened to me was the first line of the script I was writing started with an "open" command, but I was trying to run the wrong filename.)
21:35 jnthn colomon: You'd want more "File 'fjkfjfd.pl' not found" or some such?
21:35 ingy I only ask this here because you guys are my favorite perl people
21:35 pmichaud pmichaud@plum:~/star/dist$ perl xyz
21:35 pmichaud Can't open perl script "xyz": No such file or directory
21:35 [Coke] colomon: if you can add what you want to see on the ticket, that'd be awesome. =-)
21:36 colomon Perhaps "Script 'fjkfjfd.pl' not found"
21:36 colomon ?
21:36 pmichaud see above example from 'perl'
21:36 pmichaud do that.  :-)
21:36 [Coke] the p5 message is fine, I think.
21:36 colomon ah, yes.
21:36 pmichaud I'll build it into HLL::Compiler after the release.
21:36 pmichaud since HLL::Compiler is the place where the exception would need to be handled.
21:36 [Coke] we have any cygwin users?
21:36 pmichaud (assign me the ticket, please)
21:37 ingy nm... I got a rep o protect
21:37 dalek book: b0708ef | duff++ |  (2 files):
21:37 dalek book: incorporate fixes from Pm; answer Pm's questions
21:37 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/b0708ef823cc5bdda7947efbb692b492946f06fd
21:38 [Coke] pmichaud: assigned.
21:38 [Coke] ... OOOH. time to resurrect the perl6 CLI interface via irc.
21:38 [Coke] s/perl6/RT/
21:39 [Coke] which rt
21:39 [Coke] ww
21:39 kokajxo joined #perl6
21:39 ingy hmm ok here goes. How do I set a file level package dynamically in p5?
21:39 colomon pmichaud: just been messing around with int range iters.  the sort of obvious Int-based optimizations don't seem to do squat for the timing.
21:39 [Coke] (though permissions issues would suck.)
21:40 colomon pmichaud: please don't look into this at the moment, you've got better things to be doing.
21:40 colomon I think basically all the slow is coming from the iterator structure itself.
21:40 pmichaud colomon: a lot of the slow is, yes.
21:41 pmichaud that's the downside to immutable iterators
21:41 pmichaud we end up having to make a lot of them
21:41 pmichaud but batching can improve things a lot
21:42 pmichaud if RangeIter (or SeriesIter, for that matter) can generate up to 100 elements at a time, we reduce the number of iterators by a factor of 100
21:42 colomon I can probably optimize the Int operations a tad (go straight to pir if needed) but don't expect that to gain us more than maybe 5%.
21:42 pugssvn r31849 | Kodi++ | [t/spec] Instant and Duration tweaks.
21:42 colomon pmichaud: is there an example somewhere of how that might work?
21:43 pmichaud colomon: all it means is that instead of an iterator returning   ($value, $nextIter)
21:43 pmichaud it would return
21:43 pmichaud ($value0, $value1, $value2, ..., $nextIter)
21:43 colomon well, that's easy enough to test for the N=2 case.
21:43 pmichaud and if it exhausts the iteration, then it doesn't need to supply a $nextIter
21:43 colomon but I should probably cook noms first.
21:44 pmichaud basically, .reify returns a parcel containing iterated values (if any), and an iterator to use to get more (if any)
21:48 colomon is there any way to construct a Parcel with N elements?  (picturing a when statement with 100 cases to handle the end of the 100 elements at a time case, and that seems very wrong.)
21:49 pmichaud for this test, it would be okay for .reify to return a List with the n elements
21:49 pmichaud well, hmm, not really.
21:49 pmichaud hrmmmmm
21:49 pmichaud oh, yes.
21:50 pmichaud &infix:<,>(|@elems, $nextIter)
21:50 pmichaud (we can probably improve that a bit at some point)
21:50 jnthn Yeah, | is not exactly optimized at the moment (wasn't really expecting it to be relied on in a critical path :-))
21:51 pmichaud to my thinking, this is really one of those places where optimizing in PIR instead of P6 makes some sense.
21:51 pmichaud but I seem to be swimming against the current there.
21:55 jnthn pmichaud: Is a Parcel still really an RPA underneath?
21:55 pmichaud subclass of an RPA
21:55 pmichaud but yes.
21:55 pmichaud pir::push would work on it.
21:55 jnthn pmichaud: If so, isn't just my $parcel = pir::new('Parcel'); pir::push($parcel, $value); ...
21:55 jnthn Right.
21:55 jnthn I don't have a problem with doing things like that.
21:56 pmichaud that works as long as you're willing to accept that the Parcel isn't a p6opaque
21:56 jnthn Because I expect those we can generalize over VMs later
21:56 jnthn It's Q:PIR that gets tricky
21:56 pmichaud and you also run into problems that  $parcel ends up being a Seq
21:56 jnthn Oh
21:56 jnthn And we can't := it because...that does fancy stuff.
21:56 jnthn Oh, maybe it'd work.
21:57 pmichaud but in the final analysis, the point is that at some point low-level manipulations have to be, well, low-level.
21:57 jnthn rakudo: my $x := pir::new('Parcel'); say $x.WHAT
21:57 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤The opcode 'new_p' (new<1>) was not found. Check the type and number of the arguments␤»
21:57 jnthn rakudo: my $x := pir::new__Ps('Parcel'); say $x.WHAT
21:57 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
21:57 PerlJam tweets like these make me happy: http://bit.ly/bFFn6y http://bit.ly/9uuyNI
21:58 jnthn PerlJam: :-)
21:58 pmichaud PerlJam: me too.  I hope they don't turn around and say "whoa!  that was a waste."  :-)
22:01 jnthn pmichaud: (OT) When will you be arriving to Pisa?
22:01 jnthn Monday?
22:02 pmichaud scheduled landing is 18h30 iirc
22:02 jnthn OK.
22:02 jnthn I expect to make it to the hotel around 15h00 or so
22:03 Guest23195 left #perl6
22:03 am0c joined #perl6
22:03 colomon pmichaud: actually, I think optimizing specialized core low-level iterators in PIR makes perfect sense.
22:03 colomon afk # back to cooking
22:03 jnthn YESSS!
22:03 * jnthn gets a beer!!
22:04 pmichaud jnthn: I'm guessing my hotel will be around 20h00.  And I'll undoubtedly want nom.
22:04 am0c o/ o hai
22:04 jnthn am0c: oh hai!
22:04 pmichaud grrrrrrrr
22:05 jnthn pmichaud: You're flying into Pisa? The hotel is like, really really really close to the airport. So if you land on time you may be earlier than that. :-)
22:05 pmichaud jnthn: yes, but I have to get through immigration
22:05 jnthn pmichaud: In other news...I just made a break-through on the role otuers bug.
22:05 jnthn pmichaud: ah, true
22:05 am0c jnthn: o/ heheh
22:05 pmichaud jnthn: I'm not EU-citizen-quick-line
22:05 jnthn pmichaud: Oh, where is your connection?
22:05 pmichaud LHR, iirc
22:05 jnthn Ah, OK
22:06 jnthn Then yes, you'll do passport control in Pisa.
22:06 pmichaud what's the best way from airport to hotel?
22:06 jnthn (If you'd said Frankfurt or some such, then you'd have cleared it there and entered the check-free Schengen zone.)
22:07 jnthn pmichaud: Well, given it's a few hundred meters, maybe even on foot. ;-)
22:07 pmichaud jnthn: yeah, that's what I was thinking also.  :)
22:07 jnthn pmichaud: Only thing is if it's a few hundred meters as the crow flies and an annoying trek in terms of where you can walk.
22:08 colomon jnthn: \o/
22:08 pmichaud google maps says 1.7 km walk
22:08 jnthn pmichaud: But even so, a taxi that short way to save you the hassle shouldn't cost much.
22:08 wamba joined #perl6
22:09 pmichaud agreed
22:09 pmichaud I can't believe .gitignore is part of the parrot tarball MANIFEST.  Evil.
22:12 lichtkind sorear: can blizkost do 5.12?
22:12 hanekomu_9 joined #perl6
22:13 [Coke] pmichaud: please open a bug report on that. =-)
22:22 kokajxo joined #perl6
22:33 pmichaud R* should come with 'proto' or 'pls'?
22:33 pmichaud current star repo shows that it comes with 'proto'
22:34 jnthn pmichaud: Note that pls is a branch in the proto repo
22:34 jnthn pmichaud: Lsat I looked the script checked that out.
22:34 pmichaud ah
22:34 pmichaud yes, pls_rstar_hacks
22:34 jnthn *nod*
22:34 kid51 joined #perl6
22:35 pmichaud it doesn't have a README or anything, though.
22:35 pmichaud so what do I need to do to install it?
22:35 pmichaud or is that dependent on 'ufo'?
22:37 jnthn No, it doesn't depend on ufo
22:37 jnthn I think it can just be run "as is"
22:37 pmichaud ah, it's called 'proof_of_concept'
22:37 pmichaud that's kinda weird.
22:37 jnthn Yeah, I asked what it needed before it could be renamed a while back...forget the exact answer.
22:38 jnthn (Asked here, let's see if I can find it in the logs.)
22:39 jnthn aww, the logs search is LTA it seems
22:39 pmichaud it doesn't search for words smaller than 4 letters
22:40 Tene I prefer using grep to search my logs. :)
22:40 jnthn pmichaud: aww
22:41 japhb joined #perl6
22:41 * jnthn tries searching for everything he's said to masak :-)
22:44 jnthn pmichaud: Can't find it. But essentially it was, iirc, that masak++ wanted to make some Perl 5 wrapper script around it to detect if there was of Perl 6 available (I maybe remember wrong) and some better usage notice and things like that.
22:45 jnthn pmichaud: But afaik the actually installing stuff bit is meant to work fine already...if you're not on a platform where the Makefile it writes doesn't work.
22:46 japhb I've got a Perl Mongers meeting tonight, and a question has come up that a friend and I would like to discuss, but unfortunately we don't have enough time to write tests of our own to answer it:  Is there any sense of the comparative performance of a Perl 5 application that uses Moose pretty much to the max, and the equivalent Perl 6 code in Rakudo?  This is not meant to start a battle, and I'm specifically talking about an app that is NOT
22:46 japhb I/O bound, nor compute bound by tight kernels.  I'm talking purely about the cost of the introspection, argument validation, type coersion, and so forth.
22:46 japhb Sorry for the wordiness.
22:46 jnthn rakudo: role R { method m { say 42 } }; class C does R { }; C.new.m
22:46 p6eval rakudo ac8a2a: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &say␤  in 'm' at line 22:/tmp/L5ZMIB5w2P␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/L5ZMIB5w2P␤»
22:46 jnthn > role R { method m { say 42 } }; class C does R { }; C.new.m
22:46 jnthn 42
22:47 jnthn <huge beer slurp>
22:47 * jnthn timidly runs the spectests
22:47 jnthn japhb: Not aware of one.
22:47 jnthn japhb: The meta-model is currently not exactly performant. That's one of the reasons it's the Next Big Thing I plan to work on.
22:47 japhb Basically we'd like to make the argument that it's worth it for people thinking about making the Moose move to try going all the way to Perl 6.  I think most would be willing to deal with a moderate loss of performance, but orders of magnitude might be a hard sell ....
22:47 japhb jnthn, ah, thank you.
22:48 jnthn japhb: One interesting data point I did see once was that Perl 5 + a bunch of Moose modules had equivalent startup time or similar at least startup time to Rakudo.
22:48 japhb That is a good data point indeed.
22:48 jnthn japhb: Not sure how well it holds today.
22:49 jnthn japhb: Moose is no doubt getting better all the time in that sense.
22:49 japhb One hopes.  :-)
22:49 japhb Has Rakudo been doing the same?  Is startup time improving, or at least not getting greatly worse?
22:50 jnthn japhb: Anyway, in the medium term I'm quite comfortable that we're going to be able to do attribute accesses and method dispatch (or at least in terms of locating the method to call, if not actually invoking it) competitive with Moose, and in the maybe not too much longer term better if there's enough type info around.
22:51 jnthn japhb: The meta-model re-design I'm doing is very deliberately aimed at supporting a gradually typed langauge, as Perl 6 is, rather than a purely dynamically typed one. I hope we can win something notable there.
22:51 japhb That's great to hear.  (on both counts).
22:52 jjore_ though fwiw, Moose is pretty abysmal right now in performance. I hadn't used Moose for CLI stuff til it happened as part of work. It's shocking how slow startup is.
22:52 japhb I notice your comment about the cost of invoke ... is it significantly slower to do a method call in Rakudo/Parrot than in Moose/Perl 5?
22:52 Tene japhb: on my system, perl6 -e 1 take 0.9s, and perl -Moose -e 1 takes 0.2s
22:53 Tene so, about 5x
22:53 jnthn We seem to have slipped badly on startup time of late. Like, a factor of 3 over what we were a while back.
22:53 jnthn I wish I knew why.
22:53 japhb Hmmm.
22:53 jnthn git bisets on that would be most welcome.
22:54 Tene japhb: you'll also want to test it on large programs, to see the speed of rakudo's parser.
22:54 japhb True.
22:54 sorear phenny: tell pmurias any time you rename files you *need* to change the makefile.  On a case by case basis, so I can't help you.
22:54 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when pmurias is around.
22:54 drbean joined #perl6
22:54 Tene perl -e 1 is 0.003s on my laptop
22:54 japhb Has anyone already written a Perl 6 port of a sizable Moose-using app or module?
22:55 japhb Tene: nice!
22:55 Tene so, rakudo to p5moose is 5x, p5moose to p5 is 100x
22:55 japhb Anything that runs faster than a single frame update of your monitor is Fast Enough.
22:55 japhb Well, for command-line use at least.  ;-)
22:55 sorear good * #perl6
22:55 jnthn fwiw, our parsing speed is not unrelated to our method dispatch speed. The nice thing about grammars is the dispatches are on the invocant, and we have plenty of type information about that.
22:56 jjore_ fwiw, the program I used at http://diotalevi.isa-geek.net/~josh/100720/timing-rakudo2.txt really spends pretty much "all" its time in the rakudo regexp engine and while I ahven't traced it down, some inputs were phenomenally slower to execute against.
22:56 sorear phenny: msg lichtkind blizkost has been tested on 5.10.1 and 5.12.0.  It is known to not work on 5.8.9.
22:56 jnthn Is t\spec\S02-builtin_data_types\declare.t failing for anyone other than me in current Rakudo master, ooc?
22:56 japhb jnthn, Ah, so your improved meta-model should end up making that dispatch (and thus parsing) significantly faster?
22:56 jnthn sorear: s/msg/tell/, and morning :-)
22:57 sorear phenny: tell lichtkind blizkost has been tested on 5.10.1 and 5.12.0.  It is known to not work on 5.8.9.
22:57 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when lichtkind is around.
22:57 sorear Actually it's 4PM.  My sleep schedule has recently gone from "insane" to "indescribable" :(
22:58 rgrau_ joined #perl6
22:58 jnthn japhb: I'd not like to claim "significant" until I have numbers to back it up. :-) What I can say is that it should often be an array index into a v-table to look most methods up on a grammar cursor, then invoking what comes back, compared to today where we go looking in hashes.
22:59 japhb Still a decent improvement, one hopes.
22:59 jnthn I'd hope so.
23:00 jnthn When I'm designing this stuff I'm tending to do it at the level of, "so how many pointer derefs/CPU level ops/C-level function calls will this take"
23:00 jnthn For the very core of the model, anyways.
23:01 jnthn And for the most optimal cases.
23:01 jnthn But grammars are well positioned to be able to be optimal.
23:01 japhb jjore_, That is an interesting result, if a bit painful.
23:01 jnthn And hit the fast path a lot of the time.
23:01 japhb Good!
23:02 sorear I almost asked there "Why are you talking to yourself"
23:02 jjore_ you can find a conversation about it, apparently on 2010-07-20 based on the URL.
23:02 japhb jjore_, thanks, looking
23:03 jnthn sorear: I know that feeling. I got up around 4PM on Saturday. Decided I needed to normalize things a bit, so just didn't sleep on Saturday night. Kinda worked. :-)
23:04 sorear jnthn: According to TimToady, all inter-rule backtracking in Perl 6 is done by having grammar methods return lazy lists of Cursors
23:04 sorear How do you feel about thi
23:04 sorear s
23:05 jnthn sorear: I'm kinda the wrong person to ask - that's more one for pmichaud. It sounds sane at first blush.
23:05 kid51 The instructions on this page http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo tell me how to get rakudo -- but they don't tell me how to get Rakudo* on Thursday July 29
23:06 jnthn sorear: At the end of the day though, Cursors are objects, lazy lists are objects, and they all have methods. So anything that speeds up method dispatch is very likley going to help the situation. :-)
23:07 jnthn sorear: I'm not sure how Pm implemented the inter-rule backtracking stuff recently.
23:09 japhb Thanks everyone for the answers!
23:10 Kodi joined #perl6
23:10 pmichaud http://pmichaud.com/sandbox/rakudo-star-beta1.tar.gz  # a *VERY* preliminary tarball.  No docs, no book, modules don't install yet
23:11 jnthn pmichaud: What should it do so far? Build a Parrot and a Rakudo?
23:11 pmichaud basically
23:11 jnthn pmichaud: And then die?
23:11 jnthn OK
23:11 jnthn I can at least check it does that
23:11 pmichaud perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot
23:11 jnthn pmichaud: my $hack is epic; # for the roles fix
23:11 pmichaud make
23:11 pmichaud make rakudo-install
23:11 jnthn pmichaud: But it works and we can dig down to the real problem.
23:11 jnthn Later on.
23:12 pmichaud dinner calls -- bbiab
23:12 jnthn I'm spectesting now, and down to S06 it's looking decent.
23:12 jnthn kk
23:13 sorear (What should come next in niecza?)
23:13 pmichaud jnthn: can I review the patch?
23:14 pugssvn r31850 | Kodi++ | [t/spec] More high-precision Instant tests.
23:15 jnthn pmichaud: http://gist.github.com/493036
23:16 mberends sorear: I'm interested in applying my former Sprixel spectest fudging harness to niecza, to begin probing what p6 compatibility it is missing.
23:16 jnthn pmichaud: Basically, the issue is not taht the sub's ->outer_ctx is broken, but that lexical lookup follows ctx->outer_ctx
23:16 jnthn pmichaud: And that is pointing to something that doesn't end up pointing down to the setting.
23:17 jnthn pmichaud: I'm sure now we know that's what it is, we can get down to the real underlying issue, but my feeling is that this will be a fix somewhere in Parrot or set_outer_ctx or so.
23:18 sorear mberends: niecza has a spectest fudging harness now.  I haven't bothered to fudge any spectests yet, mostly because they'd be completely full of such stuff
23:19 Kodi phenny: tell masak http://gist.github.com/493037 A patch to implement Instants and Durations; please review at your convenience.
23:19 phenny Kodi: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
23:19 sorear mberends: my current short-term agenda is a rewrite of Test.pm6 to have a ::Builder and more of the nicities of p5 Test::More, like line numbers
23:20 mberends sorear: did you once write that spectests did not really interest you?
23:21 sorear I may have
23:24 Kodi left #perl6
23:25 mberends sorear: so another direction is towards trying to support some applications, instead of mainly passing tests. niecza may need some additions to its runtime library for that.
23:26 PerlJam joined #perl6
23:26 Util joined #perl6
23:26 dukeleto joined #perl6
23:26 dalek joined #perl6
23:26 pugssvn joined #perl6
23:30 pmichaud joined #perl6
23:34 jnthn pmichaud: fail
23:34 jnthn 'make' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
23:34 jnthn operable program or batch file.
23:34 jnthn pmichaud: That is when I run make
23:34 jnthn pmichaud: er, nmake
23:34 jnthn After the perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot
23:34 jnthn pmichaud: May be that "make" is hard-coded somewhere?
23:34 pmichaud yeah, it probably is.
23:34 pmichaud fixing.
23:35 jnthn OK
23:35 jnthn pmichaud: Do I have +1 to apply the role outer workaround?
23:35 jnthn pmichaud: I know it's horrible, but the bug it works around is more horrible.
23:36 pmichaud looking
23:38 pmichaud if this patch fixes the problem, I'm even more convinced that the underlying issue is that the mainline's outer is being clobbered or not set up properly somehow.
23:38 jferrero http://www.rakudo.org/rss.xml don't work very well...
23:38 pmichaud jferrero: yes, it's been noted for well over a year but not fixed.  :-(
23:38 jnthn pmichaud: Well, "fixes". But yes.
23:39 jnthn pmichaud: Anyway, it takes the preassure off to hunt that bug, and I suspect it'll be a Parrot fix anyway.
23:39 pmichaud I don't understand the part where @!recapture gets set.
23:39 pmichaud oh, yes I do.
23:39 pmichaud you're keeping an array of contexts
23:39 jnthn Right
23:39 jnthn And then twiddling their outer_ctx pointer
23:39 pmichaud and at the beginning of the mainline, you go back and reset the outers on all of those contexts
23:40 jnthn Right
23:40 jnthn The thing is that lexical lookup doesn't actually care about the sub's outer context
23:40 pmichaud and this happens only for roles
23:40 jnthn It follows the context's ->outer_ctx pointers
23:40 jnthn Right
23:40 pmichaud right, I know the sub outer context doesn't matter.  It's only useful when a sub is invoked.  After that, it has no meaning.
23:40 jnthn I think the issue is this
23:41 jnthn We clone the methods so that they capture the role parameters
23:41 jnthn They then point to the context (the one I'm capturing to fixup)
23:41 sorear (note to self: implement protopad-powered roles before the rakudo true fix lands)
23:41 jnthn But that one doesn't point down to the setting.
23:42 pmichaud jnthn: right.  and I think that's because the code that initializes the roles is occuring before main gets its set_outer
23:42 pmichaud which ought to be happening, like, immediately.
23:42 pmichaud but something seems to be setting main's set_outer back
23:42 pmichaud ....I wonder if the real answer is that the block for the mainline needs to be :lexical(0)
23:42 jnthn I wonder if it's to do with auto-clone.
23:43 jnthn Oh, maybe not
23:43 jnthn Hm
23:43 pmichaud I wonder if the outer block is capture_lex on the mainline when we don't want it to be.
23:43 pmichaud *that* would make a bit of sense.
23:44 jnthn pmichaud: ooc, where is the set_outer that's meant to be making the link?
23:44 pmichaud UNIT_START
23:44 pmichaud actually, several places
23:44 pmichaud but UNIT_START calls &YOU_ARE_HERE
23:44 pmichaud let me double-check
23:45 pmichaud ah, it's !YOU_ARE_HERE
23:45 jnthn pmichaud: The call to !UNIT_START appears to be in a :load sub that's the last thing in the PIR, and thus after all the :load :init blocks that set up roles/classes etc
23:45 pmichaud !YOU_ARE_HERE gets the mainline block and sets the outer_ctx of the mainline to the outer_ctx of the setting
23:45 pmichaud jnthn: yes, but I also did one where it happened *first thing* in the PIR
23:45 jnthn pmichaud: And that didn't fix it either?
23:46 pmichaud no.
23:46 pmichaud and that surprised me.
23:46 jnthn Yeah, I remember now.
23:46 jnthn Yeah, even more so in light of this workaround.
23:46 colomon pmichaud: will have full report later, but initial tests suggest 3-4 at a time is ideal for an iterator.  (In terms of absolute time off the execution, going from 3 to 4 was better than going from 4 to 7.)
23:47 pmichaud jnthn: Actions.pm:67
23:48 pmichaud I'm pretty sure that .loadinit occurs before any role or class .loadinits
23:48 jnthn pmichaud: oh, I missed that
23:48 jnthn Yes, you're right.
23:49 pmichaud but then when I check the mainline at runtime, it has the wrong outer again
23:50 pmichaud which means something set it back (perhapsthe "outer" block) or the original didn't take.
23:50 pmichaud anyway, +1 on the patch
23:50 pmichaud we may need to keep the fixup code in place for a while, and I don't see it causing a major problem for us.  I don't like the messiness, but I agree that this is far less troublesome than the bug it fixes.
23:51 pmichaud and nicely done.
23:51 jnthn Aye.
23:51 jnthn Thanks. It's taken some hours to get it down to this. :-)
23:51 pmichaud http://pmichaud.com/sandbox/rakudo-star-beta2.tar.gz
23:51 pmichaud (should fix the "make" problem)
23:51 jnthn Fetching.
23:52 Tene pmichaud: I haven't been following... is that tarball suitable for asking others to test yet?
23:54 jnthn Tene: Maybe a little early yet.
23:54 Tene 'k
23:55 pmichaud Tene: it doesn't have good instructions or readme yet
23:55 pmichaud I expect to have a better on in ~2h
23:55 pmichaud *one
23:55 pmichaud I don't quite have proto and ufo figured out yet
23:55 pmichaud can I change "proof_of_concept" to be "pls", ooc?
23:56 pmichaud afk, walk
23:57 dalek rakudo: 7f5c22f | jonathan++ | src/ (3 files):
23:57 dalek rakudo: A workaround for the role outer scopes bug. It's not perfect, and it's certainly
23:57 dalek rakudo: not the real fix, but it avoids the issue and saves us an awkward FAQ.
23:57 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7f5c22f15ec4351b18e26f1563f62a479ada5ca3
23:58 Psyche^ joined #perl6
23:58 jnthn pmichaud: afaiu, you don't need to figure out ufo - the similar makefile generation that pls does is embedded in proof_of_concept already.
23:59 jnthn It doesn't depend on ufo as such, afaik.

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