IRC log for #perl6, 2010-08-03

Time	Nick	Message
00:26		jaldhar joined #perl6
00:26	Casan	where do I find the documentation on the run method for interacting with the system console from rakudo?
00:30	sorear	there isn't any
00:31	ingy	greetings
00:31	sorear	it doesn't really need it, as it has no features to speak of
00:31	melte	is it the same as p5's system()?
00:31	sorear	no
00:32	sorear	it's the same as p5's system, minus the LIST form
00:33	melte	:/
00:33	melte	why would they get rid of that?
00:33	sorear	also minus setting $?, setting ${HILD_ERROR_NATIVE}, control of argv[0], and autoflushing
00:33	sorear	melte: because there was a concious decision to start from scratch
00:34	sorear	every single feature of p5 has been thrown out
00:34	sorear	some of them have been replaced
00:34	melte	yes
00:35	sorear	the only things Rakudo run supports is my $return-value = run("this string is passed to your shell")
00:36	melte	I suppose somewhere in the p6 docs I could find the reasoning behind a less featureful function
00:36	melte	there's no exec either, eh
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00:48	* ruoso	.oO( I wonder if anyone at #perl6 would have some time and money to spend on coming to YAPC::Brasil in Fortaleza from 25 to 31 october (talks 28-30, social 31) )
00:49	Casan	sorear: ok, maybe you can give a hint to how I store the return value in the scalar, so I can parse it as I please. right now, when I do { my $return-value = run("dir"); say $return-value; } the output from run("dir") is printed directly to the screen and the say results in a 0.
00:51	melte	Casan: that's like perl5. use qx
00:56	Casan	melte: can you give an example
00:57	melte	star: my $b = qx'uname -a'; $b.say # probably won't work if this is sandboxed
00:57	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«Operation not permitted in safe mode␤ in 'Safe::forbidden' at line 2:/tmp/bKlJm0UvJt␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/bKlJm0UvJt␤»
00:57	melte	yeah
00:58	sorear	melte: software does not spring forth fully formed
00:59	sorear	it's less featureful because _it's_not_finished_
00:59	melte	Casan: I don't know what the variable ($?) is in perl6 (looking now) but the return value will be somewhere too
00:59	melte	sorear: okay, that I didn't know
00:59	melte	sorear: the way you said it above about a conscious decision made me think it was a design decision
01:00	sorear	right, it was a design decision to start over
01:03	melte	ah I see exec is now runinstead (NYI)
01:04	melte	and that the S29 explanation of run gives different argument conventions
01:06	Casan	ok thanks. learned some. didn't find qx anywhere before.
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01:07	melte	in perl5 it was also backticks, e.g. `ls`
01:08	snarkyboojum	guten morgen perl6 type hackers
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01:18	waste	rakudo: $_ .= ()
01:18	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«./src/pmc/object.pmc:185: failed assertion 'name'␤Backtrace - Obtained 16 stack frames (max trace depth is 32).␤/home/p6eval//p2/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0 [0x2b1a7cd3f203]␤/home/p6eval//p2/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0(Parrot_confess+0x87)
01:18	p6eval	..[0x2b1a7cd3f337]␤/home/p6eval//p2/lib/libparrot.so.2…
01:20		masonkramer joined #perl6
01:21	avuserow	rakudo: $_ = {say "oh hi"}; say .perl;
01:21	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤»
01:22	avuserow	rakudo: $_ = {say "oh hi"}; .();
01:22	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«oh hi␤»
01:22	avuserow	rakudo: $_ = {"oh hi"}; $_ .= (); .say;
01:22	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«src/hash.c:148: failed assertion 's'␤Backtrace - Obtained 19 stack frames (max trace depth is 32).␤/home/p6eval//p2/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0 [0x2ad47f2f6203]␤/home/p6eval//p2/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0(Parrot_confess+0x87) [0x2ad47f2f6337]␤/home/p6eval//p2/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0
01:22	p6eval	..[0x2ad47…
01:23		pugssvn joined #perl6
01:24	avuserow	rakudo: $_ = {return "oh hi"}; $_ .= (); .say;
01:24	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«src/hash.c:148: failed assertion 's'␤Backtrace - Obtained 19 stack frames (max trace depth is 32).␤/home/p6eval//p2/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0 [0x2b94b60ac203]␤/home/p6eval//p2/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0(Parrot_confess+0x87) [0x2b94b60ac337]␤/home/p6eval//p2/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0
01:24	p6eval	..[0x2b94b…
01:24	avuserow	rakudo: $_ = {return "oh hi"}; .().say;
01:24	p6eval	rakudo 966797: ( no output )
01:25	avuserow	rakudo: $_ = {; return "oh hi"}; .().say;
01:25	p6eval	rakudo 966797: ( no output )
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02:27	Util	Does Rakudo have a working read-a-line-at-a-time pipe? What is the syntax? In Perl5, it would be:
02:27	Util	open my $fh, '-\|', 'find /' or die "Can't open pipe: $!";
02:29	waste	std: :( \1 )
02:29	p6eval	std 31891: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Malformed parameter at /tmp/M2_tKav71t line 1:␤------> :( ⏏\1 )␤ expecting any of:␤ name␤ parameter␤ signature␤ statement end␤ statement list␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 115m␤»
02:33	waste	std: :( \(1) )
02:33	p6eval	std 31891: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 116m␤»
02:36	waste	rakudo: say \1 eqv \(1)
02:36	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«1␤»
02:40		pugssvn joined #perl6
02:40	sorear	what's going on with feather3?
02:41	sorear	Util: I doubt it
02:44		TiMBuS joined #perl6
02:45	sorear	Util: it looks like you could probably kludge something with pir::open__PSS, see src/builtins/Str.pir and the definition of .sub '!qx'
02:49	waste	std: $_ = 1; .++
02:49	p6eval	std 31891: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 117m␤»
02:50	waste	rakudo: $_ = 1; .++
02:50	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Method 'unshift' not found for invocant of class 'Undef'␤»
02:55	[Coke]	phenny: .u square
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03:09	waste	rakudo: .say for Array.pred, Array.succ
03:09	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«Arrax()␤Arraz()␤»
03:11	waste	rakudo: .say for +Array.^methods, +Hash.^methods
03:11	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«170␤9␤»
03:13	Util	sorear: thanks
03:13	waste	rakudo: $_ = [2]; .say for .WHAT, $_++, .WHAT, ++$_
03:13	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«Array()␤2␤Str()␤4␤»
03:14	waste	rakudo: $_ = [2]; .say for .WHAT, ++$_, .WHAT, ++$_
03:14	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«Array()␤4␤Str()␤4␤»
03:16	waste	nm the last one;
03:19	waste	or... brain freeze :/
03:20	waste	rakudo: $_ = 2; .say for ++$_, ++$_;
03:21	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«4␤4␤»
03:27	waste	rakudo: $_ = 2; .say for ++$_, $_++;
03:27	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«4␤3␤»
03:49	waste	rakudo: say [].''(2).perl
03:49	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«[2]␤»
03:49	waste	rakudo: say 1.''(2).perl
03:49	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«Method 'push' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/343GfCaqNX␤»
03:54	waste	rakudo: say ().''(2).perl
03:54	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«too many positional arguments: 2 passed, 1 expected␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
03:55	waste	rakudo: say ().""().perl # not Parcel.push ?
03:55	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«""␤»
03:56	waste	rakudo: say ().perl; ().push(1); say ().perl
03:56	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«()␤(1, )␤»
04:01	sorear	what are you doing
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04:41	waste	just mentioning some edge cases; before i forget them and move on ..
04:42	waste	but i can go back to ignoring them, if it is inappropriate
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05:41	waste	std: 1.2 = 1
05:41	p6eval	std 31891: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 116m␤»
05:42	waste	std: 1 = 1
05:42	p6eval	std 31891: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 116m␤»
05:42	waste	rakudo: say (2 = 1)
05:42	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/9ogy_14mma␤»
05:43	waste	rakudo: say (2.1 = 1)
05:43	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«1␤»
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06:19	sorear	waste: p6eval is not a bug report bot
06:20	sorear	waste: if rakudo is doing blatantly wrong things like interpreting .'' as a synonym for .push, or allowing () to be modified, or accepting 2.1 = 1, YOU NEED TO SEND MAIL TO rakudobugperl.org
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06:30	moritz_	good morning
06:31	LaVolta	morning, moritz_ :)
06:34		masak joined #perl6
06:34	masak	oh hai, #perl6!
06:34	moritz_	masak: good morning. Where are you?
06:34	sorear	good morning
06:34	masak	moritz_: I am at the leaning tower of Pisa. where are you? :)
06:35	moritz_	masak: conference venue. Come here, we have cookies!
06:35	masak	moritz_: I'll start walking now, and I'll be there in 40 minutes.
06:35	masak	are you in the lobby?
06:36	moritz_	masak: 1st floor actually, but we might move to the lobby
06:36	masak	oki.
06:36	masak	I'll try to find you.
06:37	moritz_	it's easy when you find the conference location :-)
06:37	masak	Google Maps makes that look easy, too.
06:38	masak	My One Hotel is at via Darsena 1.
06:39	moritz_	it's easy, but not a pleasant walk
06:40	masak	would that be due to the lack of a sidewalk?
06:40	moritz_	right, at least in the end
06:40	masak	I'll take the appropriate amount of care.
06:41	moritz_	stop talking, come here :-)
06:42	masak	moritz_: who's there already, by the way? moritz_, jnthn, pmichaud...?
06:42	moritz_	I've seen jnthn walkiing to the breakfast thing
06:43	moritz_	afk
06:43		ruoso joined #perl6
06:46	jfried	have a lot of fun in pisa :)
06:46	masak	Twitter is now some odd mixture of reporting the release from last week, and going back to its old "when Perl 6 is eventually released" bashing.
06:46	masak	walk &
06:49	moritz_	http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=852570 that kinda looks like a very optimistic number :-)
06:50	melte	3 times? I wish!
06:51	moritz_	aye :-)
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07:11	Su-Shee	well the next * release can show off speed improvement numbers. and more features. and the good thing is: until it's old and boring and only bug fix releases, you always have to announce improvements and shinyshiny :)
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07:23	szabgab	hi every from Pisa
07:23	moritz_	\o/
07:23	szabgab	oh, you are here moritz_ ?
07:24	moritz_	szabgab: sitting right beside you :-)
07:24	szabgab	oh
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07:36	szbalint	szabgab: :D
07:37	sorear	part of me wants to beat rakudo to having a good I/O system, since I'm building on a VM that has working I/O
07:38	sorear	on the other hand - p6eval
07:38	mathw	Morning
07:39	mathw	sorear: you want to beat rakudo to having a proper safe mode :)
07:41	sorear	szabgab: freenode policy recommends that ops do their lurking incognito - /mode #perl6 -o szabgab when not needing to use your powers
07:43	sorear	moritz_: according to #mono, running a random .exe in a sandbox is nontrivial; sandboxing in the modern CLR requires a custom runtime library for your sandbox
07:43	sorear	moritz_: so that's not an option for us
07:43	sorear	moritz_: given chroot + rlimit, what are the big things that need to stay disabled?
07:45	moritz_	sorear: run(), qx// etc.
07:46	moritz_	sorear: happy? :-)
07:46	mathw	Oh do we have a proper op list now? Good.
07:48	moritz_	yes
07:51	szbalint	heheh
07:56	mathw	I seem to recall that coming up a long time ago :)
07:56	moritz_	aye
07:56	mathw	and since we're on freenode it's polite to follow their guidelines
07:56	moritz_	we're doing that now
07:57	mathw	actually I rather enjoy instances where some idiot makes a mess in a channel and suddenly the ops are popping out of the woodwork
07:57	mathw	it's almost like somebody being an idiot in the street and six passersby abruptly turn into policemen
07:57	* snarkyboojum	is reminded of the matrix
07:58	mathw	hmm
07:58	mathw	a bit less sinister
07:58	mathw	clark kent in a phone box
07:58	snarkyboojum	:)
07:58	mathw	which you couldn't do nowadays
07:58	mathw	not in the UK anyay
07:58	mathw	might get seen on CCTV
07:59	Su-Shee	there was an incident of a german in australia who was to be mugged and suddenly 6 ninjas (literally) from the near-by martial arts school saved him :)
08:00		ruoso joined #perl6
08:01	mathw	yes I read about that
08:01	mathw	It reminded me of one day at aikido when the panic alarm for reception went off
08:01	mathw	three instructors sprinted out of the room
08:01	mathw	it was just the receptionist testing it
08:02	mathw	but I'd pity anybody who did think to make trouble there
08:02	mathw	although not for very long
08:03	Su-Shee	they just had to run at the mugger. must have been an impressive sight :)
08:05	mathw	yeah
08:05	szbalint	ever had a fire alarm in a data center? Everybody dashes out damn fast when that happens, because they use gas for putting out fires.
08:05	mathw	no but I've seen the signs which tell you to get out
08:05		masak joined #perl6
08:05	masak	lolvenue!
08:06	mathw	yay
08:06	mathw	hi masak
08:06	masak	hi mathw
08:06	szbalint	ohai, a wild masak appears!
08:06	mathw	YAPC::EU all ready to go?
08:07	mathw	shame I couldn't go, but it wouldn't have been wise as it turns out
08:07	mathw	I hate to think what I'd feel like if I'd been on a plane today
08:08	mathw	they're uncomfortable enough when I don't have pre-existing aches
08:08		mberends joined #perl6
08:09	masak	mberends! \o/
08:09	mberends	o/ masak, where are U?
08:09	phenny	mberends: 28 Jul 01:49Z <sorear> ask mberends What do you think would be a good candidate for the first niecza hosted app? It can't use eval, and it ought to benefit from our one major advantage (<0.3s startup time of precompiled programs)
08:09	phenny	mberends: 30 Jul 13:05Z <moritz_> tell mberends you'll like http://www.reddit.com/r/perl/c[…]ble_early/c0vicuc :-)
08:09	masak	mberends: venue! \o/
08:09	* mberends	too
08:09	sorear	hello masak!
08:09	masak	mberends: I'm sitting on the first floor with moritz_ and szabgab.
08:10	szbalint	hey, I can HEAR you
08:10	szbalint	keep it down :)
08:10	sorear	masak: How does one find out the average tweet? I can't seem to work the site beyond viewing single tweets
08:10	masak	szbalint: I realize I don't know how you look. where are you?
08:10	sorear	re. 01:46 < masak> Twitter is now some odd mixture of reporting the release from last week, and going back to its old "when Perl 6 is eventually released" bashing.
08:10	szbalint	masak: inside mst's class
08:10	mberends	masak: and I'm just down the hall, beyond the registration desk
08:11	masak	sorear: I have live filters for "Perl 6" 'perl6' and "Rakudo"
08:11	* masak	runs to mberends
08:11	sorear	masak: how do live filters work?
08:11	szbalint	masak: but I know how you look, so I'll poke you later :)
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08:14	* masak	meets mberends + family, jnthn and pmichaud in quick succession
08:15	Su-Shee	masak: I think that called "holding court" ;)
08:15	cognominal	I wish I could be with you
08:16	masak	the weather is beautiful, wish you were here. ;)
08:18	cognominal	Pisa is a nice town
08:18		stepnem joined #perl6
08:22	mathw	masak: say hi to everyone for me! And have fun!
08:26		ruoso joined #perl6
08:29	masak	everyone: hi
08:29	* masak	has some fun
08:31	cognominal	are you doing a hackathon?
08:32	moritz_	yes
08:32	masak	\o/
08:32	moritz_	http://nopaste.snit.ch/22523 <-- initial hague grant proposal - comments welcome
08:32	masak	moritz_++!
08:40	jnthn	oh lol I has internets
08:41	masak	jnthn: have a look at moritz_'s http://nopaste.snit.ch/22523 if you haven't seen it yet
08:41	pmichaud	I has internets
08:41	masak	\o/
08:41		smash joined #perl6
08:42	masak	"internets" is actually the correct technical term in Latvia.
08:45		ruoso joined #perl6
08:46	rcfox	moritz_: Had to put in some effort to get the definition of "imprescriptible". Nice job. (Also, you wrote it as -able)
08:47	moritz_	rcfox: will fix that in the next version, thanks
08:47	moritz_	rcfox: it's not my invention - German law is weird
08:48	rcfox	Well, Google didn't know what it meant, so I had to go to a real dictionary website.
08:49	rcfox	Heh, it's kind of funny that your last name is Lenz and you're a scientist.
08:49	moritz_	http://wiki.github.com/rakudo/[…]10-workshop-notes
08:49	rcfox	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz's_law
08:50	LaVolta	rcfox: why it's funny?
08:50		envi^home joined #perl6
08:50	LaVolta	i guess it's ought-to-be...
08:52	rcfox	LaVolta: Well, if you had the same name as some difficult concept, your classmates might blame you, or something.
08:52	rcfox	I don't know. Not funny in the "ha ha" sense...
08:53	LaVolta	rcfox: blame me for "funny" then, i did misunderstand that :)
08:53	rcfox	All I share a name with is a media corporation that likes to cancel TV shows. :P
08:54	LaVolta	FOX? is that your true lastname?
08:54	rcfox	Yep.
08:54	LaVolta	btw, I am waiting for House M.D. Season 7
08:54	rcfox	;)
08:54	rcfox	Is your last name Volta?
08:55	snarkyboojum	my last name isn't boojum
08:55	snarkyboojum	ho ho
08:55	rcfox	snarkyboojum: But you are snarky.
08:55	LaVolta	no :) and I did not even know what lavolta means...
08:55	snarkyboojum	rcfox: touche! :P
08:55	snarkyboojum	hang on .. no I'm not!
08:56	rcfox	LaVolta: Alessandro Volta made the first battery.
08:57	rcfox	"La" just means "the"
08:57	LaVolta	ah, Volta... :) wait...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavolta
08:57	LaVolta	these's an entry in wikipedia
08:57	LaVolta	...dance?
08:58	rcfox	Heh, that's a strange choice for a name.
08:58	LaVolta	I came up with that name, while i was listening to some latin funk...
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09:02	sorear	Anyone who blames you for that clearly doesn't understand the six degree rule
09:03	sorear	although imo it's more like 4
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09:05	sorear	even 2 degrees casts a shockingly wide net
09:07	masak	LaVolta: "Latin funk"? do you have any rap by Cicero? I hear he's good with words.
09:07	* sorear	is, apparently, 2 degrees from Ed Witten and the CEO of Qualcomm. Probably hundreds of other famous people he knows nothing about.
09:08	LaVolta	masak: sorry I don't know him, I was trying to do some diggin' (you can call me a "beat-digger wanna-be")
09:10	LaVolta	and I guess you can read chinese (?) I saw 哈哈 at the end of one of your blog post
09:10	masak	LaVolta: sorry, I'm just being silly. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero
09:10	masak	LaVolta: I try to retain what little Chinese I learned a few years ago.
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09:11	LaVolta	"culture gap/shock" applies here...
09:12	LaVolta	sorry...I didn't understand that :) I am the one who's being silly
09:12	masak	we're all being silly in here. :)
09:13	LaVolta	您一点儿不silly (can you read that?)
09:13	masak	sure.
09:13	sorear	ain't no such thing as seriousness in #perl6-land
09:13	sorear	I can read the 1th character :p
09:13	masak	LaVolta: nice context switching :)
09:13	masak	sorear: says 'nin yi dianr bu silly'.
09:14	masak	LaVolta: "you're a bit not silly"?
09:14	rcfox	Hum. I should study. Or sleep. Neither is very appealing.
09:14	sorear	masak: unfortunately I'm still at the "ichi" stage of understanding it
09:14	masak	rcfox: if sleep isn't appealing, you're not sleepy enough :)
09:14	* sorear	wants to fix this someday
09:14	LaVolta	masak: not exactly, means "you're not silly at all"
09:14	masak	sorear: wrong language, but yes :)
09:15	x3nU	srsly, how often are modules.perl6.org updated? i've modified projects.list 11 hours ago and still no update on site :(
09:15	rcfox	masak: Exactly. But I'm not doing anything else either...
09:15	x3nU	yes, i'm impatient ;d
09:15	masak	LaVolta: interesting. 一点儿不 means "not at all"?
09:15	LaVolta	masak: yes...correct :D
09:15	masak	x3nU: moritz_++ would know.
09:16	masak	LaVolta: that's unusually illogical for Chinese.
09:16	masak	LaVolta: I'd have understood it if't were 不一点儿
09:17		ambs joined #perl6
09:17	LaVolta	masak: yes, that's better for non-chinese speakers, I guess, but weird for native speakers :D
09:17	sorear	Is LaVolta from China?
09:18	snarkyboojum	x3nU: afaik, you need to update the poc-project.list in the pls branch in the proto repo
09:18	LaVolta	sorear: yes
09:18	moritz_	I'm lookiing into the logs now, if something has felt
09:18	snarkyboojum	x3nU: looks like you've just updated the old proto list
09:18	LaVolta	born and raised in C.
09:18	masak	snarkyboojum: oh! I missed that possibility.
09:18	daxim	Ｃ
09:18	x3nU	snarkyboojum: heh
09:19	flw	一点儿不 means "very not"
09:19	snarkyboojum	x3nU: confusing - and the two are divergent now I think ;) but see how you go with updating the json project list on the pls branch :)
09:19	LaVolta	it's dinner time...later, you guys :)
09:21		amkrankruleuen joined #perl6
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09:37	moritz_	what does $*VM<config><osname> report on windows?
09:37	tadzik	x3nU: you pushed to the wrong branch
09:37	tadzik	proto.perl6.org data is taken from pls branch
09:38	szabgab	MSWin32
09:38	snarkyboojum	tadzik: ^^
09:38	moritz_	tadzik: we've figured that out
09:38	snarkyboojum	except I made a typo.. the file in question is poc-projects.list not poc-project.list (but that should be obvious :))
09:42		timbunce joined #perl6
09:42	x3nU	tadzik: yes, i know
09:42	x3nU	i'm to busy to fix it at this moment
09:42	x3nU	too*
09:49	dalek	rakudo: 0a8ef0f \| moritz++ \| src/Perl6/Compiler.pir:
09:49	dalek	rakudo: split PERL6LIB on ; on MSWin32 platform - szabgab++ for telling us
09:49	dalek	rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakud[…]6f1ff0c18aa345b7e
09:50		Ross joined #perl6
09:51	x3nU	ok, added to pls branch ;f
09:52	moritz_	x3nU++
09:56	ingy	Gloom!
09:56	masak	Doom!
09:56	ingy	Gloom.pm!
09:56	ingy	on CPAN now!
09:57	moritz_	sucks as a top-level namespace SCNR
09:57	ingy	Gloom is my Moose
09:58	ingy	Gloom == Great Little OO Module
09:58	masak	ingy: URL?
09:58	ingy	masak: http://github.com/ingydotnet/
09:59	ingy	I also released Parse::Pegex which uses Gloom (but doesn't prereq on it!!!)
10:00	ingy	and then I released TestML, which does prereq on Parse::Pegex
10:00	ingy	masak: btw, we are going to write our p6 YAML parser in Pegex
10:01	ingy	and see if Pegex can compile to p6rules
10:01	ingy	that's my plan anyway
10:01	ingy	well... one of my planz
10:01	ingy	muhahaha
10:02	* ingy	is overdue for zzzzzzzzzzzzz
10:02	ingy	nite all o/
10:03	daxim	smells Spiffy, indeed
10:05	masak	ingy: night!
10:06	x3nU	liar! it's morning! ;f
10:07		Ross joined #perl6
10:19	moritz_	hugme: tweet rakudoperl #rakudo and #perl6 brainstorming and hacking NOW at #yapc, #yapceu2010 on the 1st floor
10:19	* hugme	hugs moritz_; tweet delivered
10:25	masak	ingy: I've now looked at Gloom. looks nice, though it doesn't look like it's a MOP like Moose.
10:27		Axius joined #perl6
10:28	bbkr	star: rakudo: my $x = :a<5>; say $x.map({.key => .value + 1}).perl
10:28	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "rakudo: my"␤»
10:28	bbkr	star: my $x = :a<5>; say $x.map({.key => .value + 1}).perl
10:28	masak	bbkr: rakudo doesn't do labels yet.
10:28	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«Method 'key' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/_GZCINSyyx␤»
10:28	bbkr	masak: thanks
10:29	masak	star: my $x = :a<5>; say $x.WHAT
10:29	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«Pair()␤»
10:30	masak	star: my $x = :a<5>; $x.map( { say .perl } )
10:30	p6eval	star 2010.07: ( no output )
10:30	masak	star: my $x = :a<5>; say $x.map( { say .perl } ).elems
10:31	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«"a" => "5"␤1␤»
10:31	masak	huh -- we have sink context now? :)
10:31	masak	star: my $x = :a<5>; say $x.map( { say .key } ).elems
10:31	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«a␤1␤»
10:31	masak	star: my $x = :a<5>; say $x.map({; .key => .value + 1}).perl
10:31	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«("a" => 6)␤»
10:31		wamba joined #perl6
10:32	masak	bbkr: there you go. needs the ;
10:32	* masak	thinks we should have an Awesome error message inside a .map multi variant that accepts a Hash
10:33	bbkr	masak: awesome :) that was in ticket http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=62332
10:33	masak	bbkr: moritz_++ informs me in meatspace that he coded up such an error message :)
10:34	masak	rakudo: my $x = :a<5>; say $x.map({ .key => .value + 1}).perl
10:34	p6eval	rakudo 966797: OUTPUT«Method 'key' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/OGubzkL0kd␤»
10:34	moritz_	65eb876cb4284a3d96c5910e21a2153ce55c5535
10:34	masak	ah. that explains this error message :)
10:34	masak	still, moritz_++
10:34	masak	it's trying to do .key on $_ with an Any() in it.
10:34	moritz_	right
10:34	moritz_	I can't fix that by another multi :-)
10:35	bbkr	I posted this info and left ticket unchanged
10:38	masak	moritz_: and warning at parse-time might backfire...
10:40	bbkr	http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=73236 - where should I put tests for this one?
10:42	moritz_	bbkr: S02-literals/num*.t or so
10:42	bbkr	moritz_: thanks
10:42	moritz_	numeric.t akshually
10:43	bbkr	star: use Test; my $e = ""; for 1..128 { $e ~= "0." ~ "0" x $_ ~ ";"; }; eval_lives_ok $e;
10:43	masak	bbkr++ # adding tests
10:43	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«ok 1 - ␤»
10:44	moritz_	bbkr: fwiw I have a test for RT #75900, just not committed it yet (having trouble with pugs svn)
10:45	moritz_	so don't bother working on that one
10:45	moritz_	(only sub vs. multi sub signature unpacking)
10:45	masak	bbkr: I think 128 iterations would be a bit of a waste of time for that one.
10:46	bbkr	masak: i know. I'll include cases that failed. 128 iterations was only for me to be sure every case passes.
10:47	masak	bbkr: oki good
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11:05	cono	rakudo: my @a = <1 2>; my %h = a => "b"; my $h1 = %( @a, %h ); $h1.WHAT.say
11:05	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: ( no output )
11:06	masak	cono: segfaults locally.
11:06	cono	yup
11:07		whiteknight joined #perl6
11:07	cono	masak: Embassy of Italy reject my visa request :(
11:09	TiMBuS	> my $h1 = %(<1 2 3 4>)
11:09	TiMBuS	Segmentation fault
11:10	TiMBuS	oh..
11:10	TiMBuS	> %()
11:10	TiMBuS	Segmentation fault
11:10	m6locks	raduko: my $h1 = %(<1 2 3 4>); say $h1
11:11	cono	std: %()
11:11	p6eval	std 31891: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 114m␤»
11:11	m6locks	it's... like... not working
11:11	TiMBuS	spelling
11:12	TiMBuS	rakudo: my $h1 = %(<1 2 3 4>); say $h1
11:12	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: ( no output )
11:12	pmichaud	I think %() (and .hash) are known to have issues.
11:12	frettled	rakudo: my $h1 = %(<1 2 3 4>); say $h1.perl
11:12	pmichaud	rakudo: my $h1 = <1 2 3 4>.hash; say $h1.perl;
11:12	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: ( no output )
11:12	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: ( no output )
11:12	m6locks	lol typo'd
11:12	pmichaud	rakudo: my $h1 = hash 1,2,3,4; say $h1.perl;
11:12	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«{"3" => 4, "1" => 2}␤»
11:13	pmichaud	yeah, looks like .hash has issues. I think a bug report was recently filed for it; should be fixable soon.
11:13	pmichaud	afk, food
11:15		Axius_ joined #perl6
11:16	rcfox	Hrm, blog.perl.org is weird.
11:16	rcfox	Er, blogs.
11:17	rcfox	It doesn't convert everything to one timezone, or something.
11:17	rcfox	So Ovid's latest post is 4 hours in the future, and my post, which I posted well after Ovid's gets pushed down.
11:18	rcfox	Also, it somehow mangled one of my links on the front page.
11:28		aCiD2 joined #perl6
11:28	aCiD2	'noo
11:28	aCiD2	erm
11:28	aCiD2	'noon
11:28	masak	☀
11:34	masak	rakudo: say "star".flip.ucfirst
11:34	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«Rats␤»
11:34	masak	coincidence? I think not!
11:36	masak	rakudo: my $plustwo = method { self + 2 }; my $a = 40; $a.=$plustwo; say $a
11:36	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Can not use .= on a non-identifier method call at line 22, near "; say $a"␤»
11:36	masak	std: my $plustwo = method { self + 2 }; my $a = 40; $a.=$plustwo; say $a
11:36	p6eval	std 31891: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
11:37	* masak	submits rakudobug
11:37	cognominal	Timbus, #75584 is the/one bug entry for %() crashing rakudo
11:40		ambs joined #perl6
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11:46	masak	rakudo: $_ .= ()
11:46	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«./src/pmc/object.pmc:185: failed assertion 'name'␤Backtrace - Obtained 16 stack frames (max trace depth is 32).␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0 [0x2ba94003a203]␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0(Parrot_confess+0x87)
11:46	p6eval	..[0x2ba94003a337]␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparrot.so.2…
11:46	masak	rakudo: .= ()
11:46		Yamotsu_x11 joined #perl6
11:46	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near ".= ()"␤»
11:46	masak	rakudo: .=()
11:46	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Can not use .= on a non-identifier method call at line 22, near ""␤»
11:46	masak	rakudo: $_.=()
11:46	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Can not use .= on a non-identifier method call at line 22, near ""␤»
11:46		Casan joined #perl6
11:46	* masak	submits rakudobug for '$_ .= ()'
11:51	masak	rakudo: my $a; $a .= ()
11:51	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«./src/pmc/object.pmc:185: failed assertion 'name'␤Backtrace - Obtained 15 stack frames (max trace depth is 32).␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0 [0x2b574b1ea203]␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0(Parrot_confess+0x87)
11:51	p6eval	..[0x2b574b1ea337]␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparrot.so.2…
11:51	masak	rakudo: Any .= ()
11:51	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«./src/pmc/object.pmc:185: failed assertion 'name'␤Backtrace - Obtained 14 stack frames (max trace depth is 32).␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0 [0x2b8e21cfa203]␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0(Parrot_confess+0x87)
11:51	p6eval	..[0x2b8e21cfa337]␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparrot.so.2…
11:52	mulander	can someone explain this to me: http://pastebin.com/d6eyqg2v
11:52	mulander	why did it work on line 8 and crashed later on?
11:52	masak	rakudo: say "alive"; Any .= ()
11:52	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«alive␤./src/pmc/object.pmc:185: failed assertion 'name'␤Backtrace - Obtained 14 stack frames (max trace depth is 32).␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0 [0x2aad17540203]␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparrot.so.2.6.0(Parrot_confess+0x87)
11:52	p6eval	..[0x2aad17540337]␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/libparro…
11:53	moritz_	mulander: it seems that loading the same module multiple times is broken
11:53	moritz_	mulander: please send a bug report to rakudobugperl.org
11:53	mulander	moritz_: ok I'm on it - just a regular email with data I assume?
11:54	moritz_	mulander: yes
11:55		takadonet joined #perl6
11:55	takadonet	morning all
11:56	masak	http://twitter.com/pi8027/status/20215375063 -- what's "lepidum"?
11:56		cjk101010 joined #perl6
11:58		meppl joined #perl6
11:59	pugssvn	r31892 \| bbkr++ \| [t/spec] tests for RT #73236 LTA error messages on literals with too many decimals
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12:02	timbunce	return fail() if not $url ~~ s/^dbdi\:postgres\://; # doesn't do what I'd like - I'm probably thinking in perl5. Gimme a clue please
12:02	* mulander	reported the bug to rakudobugsperl.org
12:02	mulander	perl #76948
12:02	timbunce	I'd expect it to return if the subst fails
12:03	moritz_	timbunce: s/// returns the substituted string currently
12:04	timbunce	moritz_: so how should I write that? and/or how can I detect that a subst didn't happen?
12:05	moritz_	timbunce: if $url ~~ /^'dbi:postgres:/ { $url.=substr($/.to) } else { fail() }
12:05	* timbunce	ug. thanks
12:06	ambs	/* #rakudo hackathon during #yapceu2010 - http://twitpic.com/2b87yj */
12:06	pmichaud	timbunce: note that fail() implies 'return' already
12:07	timbunce	pmichaud: great, thanks
12:07	pmichaud	but that's probably not the issue you're seeing
12:07	moritz_	it's s/// not returning the right stuff
12:07	moritz_	though I'm not sure what the right stuff is
12:07	moritz_	the match object?
12:08	pmichaud	object(s), actually.
12:08	masak	that's us! http://twitpic.com/2b87yj
12:09	ambs	masak: indeed.
12:10		Mowah joined #perl6
12:13	bbkr	I have question regarding http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=74448 - eval of empty string returns nor Parcel (task says it should return Nil). but Parcel ~~ Nil so it will pass testcase proposed in ticket. does that meas that test can be unfudged and ticket marked as resolved?
12:14	bbkr	s/nor/now/
12:15	masak	lol! http://twitter.com/maddingue/status/20161383662
12:15	moritz_	szabgab: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S04.h[…]ure_not_a_closure
12:15	moritz_	rakudo: say eval('').perl
12:15	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«()␤»
12:15	moritz_	rakudo: say eval('').WHAT
12:15	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
12:16	moritz_	bbkr: can be closed
12:16	bbkr	moritz_: thanks :)
12:16		yuetiantian joined #perl6
12:17	moritz_	rakudo: say Nil.WHAT
12:17	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
12:17	moritz_	Nil is the/an empty parcel
12:19	x3nU	can i create unsigned integer in perl?
12:19	moritz_	uint - but NYI in rakudo
12:19	x3nU	crap, it's serious problem
12:20	moritz_	why?
12:20	x3nU	i need unsigned int for my module which creates hash
12:21	moritz_	why?
12:21	x3nU	because of the way how works algorithm
12:21	x3nU	it need unsigned int for overflows
12:21	x3nU	well, maybe buf will do the work
12:21	moritz_	you can simulate overflows by clipping to 0xFFFF...FF
12:21	x3nU	how?
12:22	moritz_	binary AND
12:24	x3nU	can you show me example? ;f i don't understand ;p
12:24	x3nU	win 8
12:24	x3nU	oops
12:27	bbkr	star: -> *@a { say @a[+0] }.([5]) # checking http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=74410
12:27	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«5␤»
12:28	moritz_	rakudo: printf '%x', (0xAB + 0xFE) +& xFF
12:28	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &xFF␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/w78hHArM7C␤»
12:28	moritz_	rakudo: printf '%x', (0xAB + 0xFE) +& 0xFF
12:28	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«a9»
12:28	masak	x3nU:
12:28	masak	rakudo: say sprintf "0x%x", 0x123F +& 0x00FF
12:28	moritz_	x3nU: works?
12:28	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«0x3f␤»
12:28	masak	moritz_: heh. :)
12:28	timbunce	how do I choose between using die or using fail? I've not found an explanation in the docs. Is there one?
12:29	masak	timbunce: die dies. fail represents an "unthrown warning".
12:29	masak	timbunce: that is, it warns when you use the value in some way.
12:29	moritz_	s/warns/dies/
12:29	moritz_	hopefully
12:29	masak	oh, ok.
12:30	masak	it actually sounds kinda bad when one describes it, doesn't it? :)
12:30	moritz_	why?
12:30	x3nU	yeah but i dont know how to eee
12:30	timbunce	ok, but any guidance on how to choose between them in a API design?
12:30	x3nU	detect overflow
12:30	masak	moritz_: it's action at a distance; very similar to Null PMC accesses one can get in Java when a method returns null and it's used somewhere completeyl different.
12:30	bbkr	where tests for http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=74410 should go?
12:30		ruoso joined #perl6
12:31	masak	timbunce: die if there's no way to go on; fail if you can get away with it?
12:31	masak	something like that.
12:31	masak	ss/no way/no way for the caller/
12:31	moritz_	bbkr: jsut a sec...
12:31	masak	http://twitter.com/legaldiscla[…]tatus/20217558502 -- whoooa!
12:32	moritz_	bbkr: S06-signature/slurpy-params.t probably
12:32	bbkr	moritz_: sure, no rush. I know you're busy.
12:32	bbkr	thanks
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12:41	pugssvn	r31893 \| bbkr++ \| [t/spec] tests for RT #74410 The combination of prefix:<+> and slurpy arrays doesnt work
12:44	bbkr	star: class A { }; multi sub infix:<+>(A $, A $) { -1 }; say 3+3 # http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=74104
12:44	masak	std: sub foo(*%_) {}; foo(:a :b :c)
12:44	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«6␤»
12:44	p6eval	std 31892: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 117m␤»
12:44	masak	rakudo: sub foo(*%_) {}; foo(:a :b :c)
12:44	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
12:46	masak	ah; we alrady have http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=74492 for that :)
12:46	masak	and that ticket says that jnthn doesn't like that part of the spec :)
12:47	masak	rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; for 1 ..^ +@a { .say }
12:47	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤»
12:47	masak	rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; for 1 ..^ @a { .say }
12:47	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«1␤»
12:47	* masak	submits rakudobug
12:48	jnthn	masak: It looks horrible. :P
12:49	masak	jnthn: it makes more sense in the adverb-on-op case, I think.
12:49	mulander	http://pastebin.com/J9MsGGy9 <- what am I doing wrong? Shouldn't the */ be matched correctly in that string?
12:49	masak	and the fact that it can be used everywhere else is just consistency.
12:49	masak	mulander: looking.
12:49	jnthn	masak: Hmm...still looks like two terms in a row to me. :P
12:49	mulander	ignore the shebang for it, I run it directly from rakudo star.
12:50	moritz_	mulander: s/token/regex/
12:50	masak	mulander: what moritz_ said, for 'token content'.
12:50	moritz_	mulander: token doesn't backtrack, so .*? matches zeor chars
12:50		LaVolta joined #perl6
12:50	moritz_	*zero
12:50	masak	jnthn: that's because it is... oh, you know that. :P
12:51	mulander	tried changing both token occurances to regex and it didn't help
12:51	masak	jnthn: 'if $bool { ... }' looks like two terms in a row too.
12:52	jnthn	masak: Oh no...let's mail p6l and suggest we kill it!
12:52	masak	jnthn: yeah, very underused feature. no-one'll miss it.
12:52	moritz_	mulander: it could be that ~ doesn't backtrack right now either... there's an old ticket about that too :(
12:52	moritz_	why ask p6l? kill it straight away :-)
12:52	masak	jnthn: you can use 'unless' for everything anyway...
12:52	moritz_	much more efficient
12:52	moritz_	less bikeshedding
12:52	moritz_	more laughing
12:53	mulander	moritz_: so I shouldn't report this?
12:53	masak	moritz_: actually making such a commit would mark the first case of vandalism on the spec.
12:53	moritz_	mulander: I'm pretty sure we have a ticket, no need to report it again
12:53	pugssvn	r31894 \| bbkr++ \| [t/spec] tests for RT #74104 overloading an operator hides other candidates
12:54	moritz_	masak: vandalism? we change things all the time without asking p6l first
12:54	masak	mulander: pmichaud says that by spec, your example can never work. the tilde doesn't work with non-tokens, and as a token, your 'content' rule won't match what you want.
12:54		Axius joined #perl6
12:55	masak	moritz_: yes. I was referring to this specific case (removing 'if')
12:55	moritz_	which is kind of a pity
12:55	masak	moritz_: why is it a pity?
12:55	masak	moritz_: the reasons you give above are very legit.
12:55	moritz_	masak: thas was re ~ not doing backtracking
12:55	masak	oh oki
12:56	mulander	masak: changing it to regex also doesn't match - does the spec also negate such use case?
12:56	mulander	*such a
12:56	moritz_	mulander: the current spec does, and we don't know how to fix it properly
12:57		Trashlord joined #perl6
12:57	mulander	wierd I see the exact same example here
12:58	mulander	http://github.com/krunen/xml/b[…]ammar/Document.pm
12:58	mulander	line 11 and line 13
12:58	mulander	define a similar structure
12:58	masak	that code might be pre-ng, for one thing.
12:59	mulander	understood
12:59	* mulander	was just being curious :)
13:02		Guest23195 joined #perl6
13:04	LaVolta	masak: sorry for disturbing, i guess the code here http://github.com/masak/web/bl[…]bin/basic-demo.pl needs updating
13:04	masak	without looking at it; yes, probably.
13:04	masak	the whole of Web.pm needs updating.
13:04	masak	(patches welcome)
13:05	LaVolta	i was looking for a working example of HTTP::Daemon when R* just released
13:05	LaVolta	then I found that script
13:05	masak	seems that due to so many of us being here in meatspace, there'll be no #phasers meeting tonight.
13:06	bbkr	star: class A { has ($!a, $!b); sub foo {$!b = 4; $!b}; }; A.new.foo.say # checking #73808
13:06	frettled	masak: meatspace meetings can get you spaced quicker, though ;) — are you getting lots of stuff done?
13:06	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«Method 'foo' not found for invocant of class 'A'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/vvvA94AyUN␤»
13:06	LaVolta	err, if I managed to make it work, how do I send the patch to you? by forking the project?
13:07		ruoso joined #perl6
13:07	bbkr	star: class A { has ($!a, $!b); method foo {$!b = 4; $!b}; }; A.new.foo.say # checking #73808
13:07	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«4␤»
13:07	bbkr	yay
13:07	mulander	LaVolta: generally on github you fork the project, make changes and issue a pull request to the original source
13:07	masak	frettled: I'm still mostly in panic mode, so I'm sitting here hacking on my slides.
13:07	mulander	LaVolta: the original repo owner gets your request and can decide either to merge in your changes or ignore the request
13:08	masak	frettled: on the bright side, I'm making progress with the slides. :)
13:08		Woody2143 joined #perl6
13:08	LaVolta	mulander: thanks for the guide :) I will try
13:09	[Coke]	if there's a meatspace phasers, a summary to the mailing list would be gnifty. danke.
13:10	bbkr	std: class A { has ($!a, $!b); };
13:10	p6eval	std 31894: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 117m␤»
13:10	masak	[Coke]: both pmichaud and moritz_ have taken notes, IIUC.
13:10	[Coke]	oh, it's done? =-)
13:13	bbkr	std: class Foo { our $.bar = 4; }; Foo.bar;
13:13	p6eval	std 31894: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 118m␤»
13:13	frettled	masak: \o/ — but you have several hours left, don't you? :D
13:14	bbkr	star: class Foo { our $.bar = 4; }; Foo.bar.say; # is this expected to work?
13:14	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«Method 'bar' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/GAWHvKJPVY␤»
13:14	frettled	masak: BTW, what is your talk about?
13:14	TiMBuS	> %(1,2).perl
13:14	TiMBuS	{"1" => 2}
13:14	masak	frettled: oh, 24 hours left.
13:14	TiMBuS	well that was probably the easiest fix ive ever done
13:14	masak	frettled: the talk tomorrow is called "Perl 6 appetizers". basically I'm just going to flash a lot of tasty food in front of people. :)
13:14	masak	frettled: and snippets of tasty Perl 6.
13:15	masak	frettled: my talk on Friday is the big one: "Prince of Parsea". I haven't written that yet, so I don't know exactly what it will contain. but I suspect I'll be pulling all the stops :)
13:15	frettled	woo-hoo!
13:15		Holy_Cow joined #perl6
13:16	masak	Holy_Cow! o.O
13:16	frettled	And your slides will be available online after the talks, right? :)
13:16	masak	right.
13:16	frettled	yay
13:16	gfldex	masak: will you be live on the interwebs for us to see?
13:16	masak	gfldex: there will be volunteers filming.
13:16	gfldex	\o/
13:16	masak	gfldex: I don't know if they have volunteers enough, or if they're prioritizing talks. we'll see.
13:16		M_o_C joined #perl6
13:17	frettled	If it's anything like other videotaped conferences, we'll see the videos before 2013, I'm sure ;)
13:17	TiMBuS	rakudo: my @a = (1,2); my %h = @a; say @a;
13:17	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«␤»
13:18	masak	frettled: :)
13:18	gfldex	frettled: that's why i was asking that question. Questions tend to speed up processes more then requests do. :)
13:19	masak	"would you please put up the video before 2013?"
13:20	gfldex	:D
13:20	gfldex	damn, you got me there
13:20	gfldex	but inception does work and you don't even need the victim to dream :)
13:23	pugssvn	r31895 \| bbkr++ \| [t/spec] tests for RT #73808 Providing a list of attributes to a single "has" leads to IMCC syntax errors
13:29	pugssvn	r31896 \| bbkr++ \| [t/spec] tests for #73384 Null PMC access when using &&= or \|\|= (unfudged)
13:30		drbean joined #perl6
13:30	bbkr	std: say 1%^^1
13:30	p6eval	std 31894: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Expecting a term, but found either infix ^^ or redundant prefix ^␤ (to suppress this message, please use space between ^ ^) at /tmp/Vh2B77Tequ line 1:␤------> say 1%^^⏏1␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 116m␤»
13:31	bbkr	star: say 1%^^1
13:31	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«0␤»
13:34	bbkr	star: say (1...^*).batch(10).perl
13:34	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«Can't take numeric value for object of type Whatever␤ in 'Any::Numeric' at line 1348:CORE.setting␤ in 'prefix:<^>' at line 6460:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/gJ8QE6j9Og␤»
13:35	masak	bbkr: are these from RT tickets?
13:35	bbkr	masak: yes, http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=73268
13:36	masak	bbkr: if you want to try with latest Rakudo, telling p6eval to 'rakudo:' it rather than 'star:' it gives you a more up-to-date build.
13:36	TiMBuS	should Whatever just numify to Inf? Or are there cases where that would break things?
13:36		molaf joined #perl6
13:36	masak	TiMBuS: I know of no case where Whatever numifies to Inf.
13:36	masak	TiMBuS: rather, it's the routines that use it that give Whatever that semantics.
13:37	moritz_	TiMBuS: it's not that easy, in * ... 0 the * means -Inf, notionally
13:37	bbkr	masak: thanks for the tip
13:37	TiMBuS	but.. what comes after -Inf D:
13:37	masak	TiMBuS: -Inf
13:37	masak	(duh)
13:38	masak	rakudo: say (-Inf).succ
13:38	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«-Inf␤»
13:38	masak	:)
13:38	moritz_	rakudo++
13:38	masak	rakudo: say Inf.pred
13:38	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
13:39	masak	rakudo: say Inf\i * Inf\i
13:39	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«-Inf + NaNi␤»
13:39	masak	\o/
13:39	masak	close enough for me... :)
13:39		javs joined #perl6
13:40	bbkr	star: say Inf - Inf # curious
13:40	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
13:40	moritz_	rakudo++ #again
13:40	masak	rakudo: say Int - NaN
13:40	masak	erm.
13:41	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
13:41	masak	rakudo: say Inf - NaN
13:41	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
13:41	masak	NaN trumps Inf. fair enuf.
13:41		isBEKaml joined #perl6
13:41	gfldex	rakudo: say ('Bla' ~~ NaN).perl;
13:41	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«Method 'isNaN' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤ in 'ACCEPTS' at line 3172:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/6PXKmr4LbD␤»
13:42	masak	isNaN should probably be on Cool.
13:42	masak	...or should it?
13:42	moritz_	+1
13:42	gfldex	what is Cool for anyway?
13:43	masak	it all comes down to what we do when we numify a non-number Str.
13:43	moritz_	well, like Cool
13:43	moritz_	that's an FAQ
13:43	moritz_	I should write it up somewhere
13:43	masak	gfldex: Cool is for things that belong in several common classes in Perl 6 (Str, Num, Int...)
13:43	bbkr	star: my $x = Inf; for ^Inf { $x = $x.pred }; say $x; # riddle for torturing students :)
13:44	[Coke]	cool reminds me of Scalar in parrot.
13:44	masak	gfldex: it's also a way to pull things from Any, so that a user doesn't get a lot of methods without asking for them.
13:44	p6eval	star 2010.07: ( no output )
13:44	[Coke]	(which I think was stolen from some similar concept in p5)
13:45		drbean joined #perl6
13:46	masak	bbkr: and the answer is... ⊥? :)
13:46		Holy_Cow joined #perl6
13:47	pmichaud	http://gist.github.com/506399 # rakudo can now create fakecutables
13:47	moritz_	it's not computable
13:50	cono	\o/
13:50	masak	pmichaud++
13:50	PerlJam	pmichaud++ are you going to bottle that up in a smaller package for our end users?
13:50	pmichaud	PerlJam: likely, yes.
13:50	pmichaud	I'll probably come up with --target=exe
13:50	masak	moritz_: ⊥, I believe, is funlang-speak for "not computable".
13:50	pmichaud	actually, --target=exe might not be very possible
13:50	pmichaud	so, --target=pbc
13:51	masak	pmichaud: awww, not --target=fake? :)
13:51	bbkr	star: my Hash $x; $x[1]
13:51	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for '_block41394'. Available candidates are:␤:()␤␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
13:51	masak	or --target=cute
13:51		drbean joined #perl6
13:53	[Coke]	pmichaud: there is a ticket for that.
13:54	[Coke]	Mind if I assign it to you?
13:55	dalek	rakudo: 51cc37e \| pmichaud++ \| src/Perl6/ (2 files):
13:55	dalek	rakudo: Enable --target=pir to produce PIR code that can be run directly
13:55	dalek	rakudo: from Parrot (provided Rakudo has been installed).
13:55	dalek	rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakud[…]000607c6aabdcbcaf
13:55	[Coke]	pmichaud: assigned. (RT #65994)
13:57	[Coke]	pmichaud++
14:03	[Coke]	nqp-rx is using CodeString, that should be updated.
14:04		mberends_ joined #perl6
14:08		masak joined #perl6
14:09	masak	wifi--
14:09	masak	[Coke]: how is CodeString spelled nowadays? String?
14:14	jnthn	StringBuilder iirc
14:14	masak	oh ok
14:17	smash	moritz_: http://gist.github.com/506433
14:20	[Coke]	masak: see: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1633\
14:20	[Coke]	(tells how to move away from CodeString)
14:20	[Coke]	it's probably going to be removed before the next release.
14:21	masak	[Coke]: \o/
14:21	masak	[Coke]: I actually ported CodeString to Perl 6 for GGE: http://github.com/masak/gge/bl[…]er/lib/GGE/Exp.pm
14:25		plobsing joined #perl6
14:28	bbkr	rakudo: $0 # where tests for http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=72956 should go?
14:28	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: ( no output )
14:30		hercynium joined #perl6
14:33	bbkr	std: my @ = 1, 2, 3
14:33	p6eval	std 31896: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
14:33	bbkr	rakudo: my @ = 1, 2, 3
14:33	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: ( no output )
14:33	bbkr	rakudo: my @ = 1, 2, 3; say @ #
14:34	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at line 22, near "@ #"␤»
14:34	moritz_	std: my @ = 1, 2, 3; say @ #
14:34	p6eval	std 31896: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at /tmp/Ier7W78AIP line 1:␤------> my @ = 1, 2, 3; say ⏏@ #␤Confused at /tmp/Ier7W78AIP line 1:␤------> my @ = 1, 2, 3; say @⏏ #␤ expecting twigil␤Other potential
14:34	p6eval	..diffi…
14:34	bbkr	how to access such array? :)) (testing #72946 )
14:34	patch	rakudo: say $^bar given 'foo';
14:34	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«Lexical '$bar' not found␤ in main program body at line 2:/tmp/M_VwbIAGBw␤»
14:35	moritz_	rakudo: say (my @ = 1, 2, 3 )
14:35	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«123␤»
14:35	moritz_	bbkr: not by name, for sure :-)
14:35	patch	rakudo: given 'foo' { say $^bar }
14:35	bbkr	rakudo: (my % = foo => 1, bar => 2).perl.say
14:35	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«foo␤»
14:35	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«{"foo" => 1, "bar" => 2}␤»
14:35	dalek	rakudo: efe72cb \| moritz++ \| src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
14:35	dalek	rakudo: s:s///
14:35	dalek	rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakud[…]91dcc0a5192d74ee7
14:35	dalek	rakudo: cb45c52 \| moritz++ \| src/Perl6/ (2 files):
14:35	dalek	rakudo: :i/:ignorecase adverbs for s///
14:35	dalek	rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakud[…]29ea5a87ef9b94757
14:36		GeneralMaximus joined #perl6
14:37	bbkr	moritz_: immortal question, where tests for http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=72946 should go?
14:38	patch	are $^ variables supposed to only work in standard blocks, not expressions followed by postfix control structures?
14:41	PerlJam	patch: $^vars are for self-declared parameters, so ... yes
14:41	moritz_	only in blocks without a signature
14:41	moritz_	bbkr: S04-*/my.t
14:41		whiteknight joined #perl6
14:42	bbkr	moritz_++
14:42	moritz_	(there are probably ohter valid places, that's just teh first I could think of )
14:43		andee_ joined #perl6
14:43	masak	moritz_: does the outermost block count as a block without a signature?
14:43	masak	rakudo: say $^a
14:43	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«Lexical '$a' not found␤ in main program body at line 2:/tmp/PEOVFAjYW3␤»
14:43	moritz_	masak: I hope not
14:43	patch	so i imagine that postix control structures can't have named variables in the expression (like perl 5)
14:43	masak	std: say $^a
14:43	p6eval	std 31896: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Placeholder variable $^a may not be used outside of a block at /tmp/zu42FbdNcC line 1:␤------> say $^a⏏<EOL>␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 115m␤»
14:44	* masak	submits LTA rakudobug
14:44	bbkr	rakudo: (our @ = 1,2,3).perl.say
14:44	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3]␤»
14:44	isBEKaml	rakudo: 2 += 3
14:44	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 10:/tmp/zFFRcHzzrS␤»
14:45	isBEKaml	rakudo: 2 ~= 3
14:45	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 10:/tmp/nLT3B_pAtU␤»
14:45	isBEKaml	rakudo 2 _= 3
14:45	masak	rakudo: if 42 { say $^the-frigging-value }
14:45	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«42␤»
14:45	masak	ooh
14:45	isBEKaml	rakudo: 2 _= 3
14:45	andee_	star: say "abbc" ~~ m/b ** 2/
14:45	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "2 _= 3"␤»
14:45	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«bb␤»
14:45	isBEKaml	rakudo: 2 .= 3
14:45	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "2 .= 3"␤»
14:46	isBEKaml	rakudo++
14:46	masak	isBEKaml: underscore... that's, like, ancient syntax. :)
14:46	isBEKaml	masak: yeah. :)
14:46	isBEKaml	rakudo: 2 \|= 3
14:46	p6eval	rakudo 0a8ef0: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 10:/tmp/EI5U8w6fvu␤»
14:47	patch	i had been hoping to get away with something like this: %h{$^key} = $^value for (a => 1, b => 2).kv;
14:47	patch	but maybe there's a more idiomatic perl 6 way of doing it
14:48	isBEKaml	masak: hey, aren't you at YAPC now?
14:48	isBEKaml	how's it there and how's everyone? :)
14:51	PerlJam	patch: %h{.key} = .value for a => 1, b => 2;
14:52	patch	PerlJam: nice!
14:52	isBEKaml	rakudo: 2 !!= 3; ## what does this mean?
14:52	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: ( no output )
14:52	[Coke]	rakudo: say 2 !!= 3;
14:52	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«0␤»
14:52	masak	isBEKaml: I'm at YAPC::EU, yes!
14:52	masak	isBEKaml: everything's great!
14:53	patch	rakudo: my %h; %h.push(a => 1, b => 2); %h.perl.say;
14:53	PerlJam	patch: a => 1 is a Pair. the loop iterates over the pairs, assigning each to $_. .key calls the key method on each pair. same thing with .value
14:53	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«{}␤»
14:53	isBEKaml	[Coke]: is that right?
14:53	isBEKaml	I mean, can we prefix !! with assignment?
14:53	isBEKaml	I have only seen !! like C's ternary op.
14:54	isBEKaml	masak: that's great! How's the coffee? ;)
14:54	[Coke]	rakudo: say !!3
14:54	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«1␤»
14:54	isBEKaml	I see, negate the negatives. :)
14:54	[Coke]	rakudo: say !!3.perl
14:54	patch	PerlJam: gotcha. what about pushing pairs to an array? i think that's spec'ed but looks like it might not be implemented.
14:54	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«1␤»
14:54	pugssvn	r31897 \| bbkr++ \| [t/spec] tests for RT #72946 Rakudo doesnt allow declaration of anonymous variables
14:54	[Coke]	rakudo: say (!!3).perl
14:54	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
14:54	patch	PerlJam: i mean to a hash
14:54	masak	isBEKaml: I'm not a coffee drinker, but I hear it's great.
14:55	[Coke]	I think that !! is eqv to ?
14:55	[Coke]	(but more work. An optimizing compiler could probably squash that.
14:55	isBEKaml	yes, I thought that didn't look right.
14:55	PerlJam	patch: it might not be implemented
14:55	[Coke]	... but how that parses in "2 !!= 3", I'd have to check the parse tree.
14:56	isBEKaml	masak: haffun hackin'! :)
14:56	isBEKaml	masak: oh, and talkin'!
14:57	isBEKaml	[Coke]: Curious, how do I check the parse tree?
15:00	x3nU	just created new module implementing BSD checksum
15:00	x3nU	http://github.com/xenu/Digest-sum
15:00	[Coke]	isBEKaml: parrot perl6.pbc --target=parse foo.p6
15:01	[Coke]	other valid targets include past, pir, ... maybe others, I forget.
15:01	[Coke]	11:01 <@LeoNerd> Ooh.. valid Perl6: my $time is short;
15:02	masak	isBEKaml: thanks. I'm trying to do a bit of both hacking and prepping slides. :)
15:02	isBEKaml	masak++
15:03	isBEKaml	[Coke]: I get this here: Parrot VM: Can't stat perl6.pbc, code 2. when I tried your command.
15:03	isBEKaml	perl6.pbc should be in the path or PERL6LIB?
15:03	isBEKaml	(I'm just guessing)
15:04	[Coke]	use whatever the path to the perl6.pbc is.
15:04	[Coke]	I typically do this in a build directory.
15:04	[Coke]	(where it's right there.)
15:04	bbkr	x3nU: smart module :) "0..$input.elems-1" can be replaced by "^$input.elems" IMO to make it even more compact
15:05	bbkr	star: for 0..10-1 {.say}; for ^10 {.say}
15:05	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤»
15:05	bbkr	se :)
15:05	isBEKaml	[Coke]: right, got it. :)
15:06	isBEKaml	[Coke]: Looks to me like, it first takes the '!' and then treats '!=', finally the assignment and negating it.
15:07	rcfox	Is there a way to get all of the functions available to an object?
15:07	isBEKaml	[Coke]: atleast, that's how I understand it. if so, that's really a weird way of doing assignment. :)
15:09	isBEKaml	[Coke]: It treats the first '!' as a symbol(whatever that means) and the following '!=' as an infix op. Right?
15:10	x3nU	bbkr: thanks for suggestion :)
15:10	* isBEKaml	suddenly gets the feeling everyone but him are at YAPC.
15:11	[Coke]	I am at $DAYJOB
15:12	* ruoso	is in other continent
15:12	* isBEKaml	feels warm in another continent. :)
15:13	isBEKaml	[Coke]: do you want to look at the parse tree I generated?
15:13	bbkr	star: "wol utyl i ma mily tulow".flip.say
15:13	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«wolut ylim am i lytu low␤»
15:13	squeeky	Any of the YAPC::EU people here?
15:15	isBEKaml	squeeky: sssh, don't disturb them. They are all hackin' away. :)
15:15	isBEKaml	*at the hackathon
15:15	squeeky	So am I! But I want to bother one of them for a while.
15:15	GeneralMaximus	i can't get some sockets code to work on Rakudo. specifically, this code on GitHub: http://github.com/carlins/irc-[…]lib/IRC/Client.pm. this is the message i get: http://pastebin.com/ZxjZPUWv
15:15	squeeky	be damned if I know anyone here.
15:16	GeneralMaximus	any pointers? clueless newb here.
15:16	isBEKaml	squeeky: bug moritz_++ or masak++
15:16	squeeky	I havent spotted them yet.
15:17		alester joined #perl6
15:18	moritz_	hm, looks like it hasn't been ported to master yet
15:19		ambs joined #perl6
15:20		pyrimidine joined #perl6
15:21	bbkr	rakudo: class Boo { method new() { } }; say Boo.new.WHAT;
15:21	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
15:23	masak	rakudo: class Boo { method new() { } }; say Boo.new eqv Nil
15:23	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:23	masak	rakudo: class Boo { method new() { } }; say Boo.new === Nil
15:23	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:23	masak	rakudo: class Boo { method new() { } }; say Boo.new =:= Nil
15:23	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:24		molecules joined #perl6
15:25	bbkr	masak: it's http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=72836 , where should I put tests?
15:25	molecules	Hello! I was reading the Perl 6 book that comes with Rakudo. I was wondering what the difference is between != and !==
15:25	moritz_	molecules: there's none
15:25	molecules	moritz_: Thanks
15:25	moritz_	molecules: != is a convenience, and you get !== by applying the ! meta operator to infix ==
15:26		bgs100 joined #perl6
15:26	molecules	moritz_: Thanks. Good book by the way. Thanks for writing it.
15:27		jarek-s joined #perl6
15:28	masak	we should put in a clarification about != and !==
15:28	moritz_	molecules: thank you
15:29	molecules	moritz_, masak: Should I fork the book add the clarification and send a pull request?
15:30	[Coke]	molecules: that works.
15:30	moritz_	molecules: or just tell us your github ID
15:30	moritz_	get a commit bit
15:30	moritz_	and push directly
15:30	molecules	moritz_: molecules
15:30	moritz_	hugme: add molecules to book
15:31	* hugme	hugs molecules. Welcome to book!
15:31	squeeky	masak: turn around, when you're done, I'd like a few questions to pick with you
15:31	molecules	moritz_: Thanks!
15:31	bbkr	std: sub foo { say "bar" }; my $x = 'foo'; &::($x)()
15:32	p6eval	std 31897: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
15:32	bbkr	rakudo: sub foo { say "bar" }; my $x = 'foo'; &::($x)()
15:32	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Indirect name lookups not yet implemented at line 22, near "()"␤»
15:35		perlygatekeeper joined #perl6
15:36	* masak	turns around :)
15:42	bbkr	std: my @a[5] # is that definition of fixed size ?
15:42	p6eval	std 31897: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 116m␤»
15:42	jnthn	Think so.
15:43	bbkr	rakudo: my @a[5]; @a[128] = 'foo'; # looks wrong, isn't it?
15:43	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: ( no output )
15:44		timbunce_ joined #perl6
15:45	bbkr	rakudo: my @a[*]; # all your resources are belong to us :)
15:45	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: ( no output )
15:45		risou joined #perl6
15:47	masak	bbkr: Rakudo parses 'my @a[5]'. that's pretty new, I think.
15:47	masak	bbkr: there's no underlying semantics for it, though.
15:47	bbkr	masak: thanks
15:48	masak	bbkr: that is to say, 'my @a[5]' works like 'my @a' right now.
15:49	squeeky	moritz_++ masak++ # let's see if I can compile rakudo 3 times from one charge.
15:49		synth joined #perl6
15:51	bbkr	rakudo: my @a[;];
15:51	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: ( no output )
15:52	masak	that [;] looks like the O RLY owl.
15:52	bbkr	masak: there is ticket about fixed-size arrays #67600 - maybe it should be renamed to "[TODO] implement ..." instead of current "Cannot declare", as Rakudo already parses this syntax
15:53	masak	bbkr: if it's "Cannot declare...", it should be closed.
15:53	* masak	is an issue ticket purist :)
15:53	masak	no run-time recasting of tickets, just because it's convenient! :P
15:54	bbkr	masak: should I add some eval_lives_ok tests to it?
15:54	[Coke]	masak: I disagree. minor updates to tickets to track stages of feature development are ok.
15:54	masak	bbkr: if you want. I'm not sure how important that is, since other S09 tests will imply that that parses.
15:54	moritz_	rakudo: class A { has $b; method new { my $b = 3; say $b } }; A.new()
15:54	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«Type objects are abstract and have no attributes, but you tried to access $!b␤ in 'A::new' at line 22:/tmp/ACdVhQjE_4␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/ACdVhQjE_4␤»
15:55	[Coke]	forcing users/developers to create new tickets is just busywork, IMO.
15:55	[Coke]	and we have enough real work.
15:55	masak	[Coke]: fair enough. the ticket as it stands, though, is ready to be closed.
15:55	[Coke]	by all means, close tickets.
15:55	[Coke]	;)
15:56		risou_ joined #perl6
15:56	masak	[Coke]: and if someone typecasts it to be another issue, the ticket cannot (as easily) be re-opened for its original purpose if the problem resurfaces.
15:56	smash	just for kicks: http://perl6doc.org/release_guide
15:56	smash	or http://perl6doc.org/ROADMAP
15:56	[Coke]	masak: why not just open a new ticket at that point? ;)
15:56	masak	[Coke]: you're just making rules up as you go along! :P
15:57	smash	http://perl6doc.org/metamodel # or any /<doc> in rakudo/docs
15:57	[Coke]	(but it really is still the same issue, just a regression). if moritz_ keeps writing tests, we'll have nothing to worry about. ;)
15:57	[Coke]	at this point, my main ticket concern is all the stuff you opened in the past year that's been fixed but not closed.
15:59		jwest- joined #perl6
15:59	masak	smash++
16:00	moritz_	smash++ indeed
16:01	bbkr	rakudo: my($a) = 5; say 'alive'
16:01	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«alive␤»
16:02		jfried joined #perl6
16:04		whiteknight joined #perl6
16:04		justatheory joined #perl6
16:06		Sanitoeter joined #perl6
16:07	* [Coke]	wonders why attributes are declared with "has $b" and not "has $.b" or whatever the twigil is.
16:08		timbunce joined #perl6
16:08	[particle]	these are rakudo docs at perl6doc.org?
16:08	[particle]	a better url might be docs.rakudo.org
16:08		Ross joined #perl6
16:11	bbkr	http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=68748 - how about this one? segfault was fixed long time ago, and multis are already tested.
16:16	bbkr	rakudo: break
16:16	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &break␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/3991IK9D0k␤»
16:17	bbkr	expected behavior if break called outside block?
16:17		_macdaddy joined #perl6
16:18	bbkr	std: break
16:18	p6eval	std 31897: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'break' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 114m␤»
16:20	rcfox	rakudo: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class Block { method Num { return self.(); } }; $b = {{{{{{{{{{3}}}}}}}}}}; $b();
16:20	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$b' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/fDYBmYL4WD:22)␤»
16:20	rcfox	Whoops.
16:20	rcfox	rakudo: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class Block { method Num { return self.(); } }; my $b = {{{{{{{{{{3}}}}}}}}}}; $b();
16:20	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: ( no output )
16:20	rcfox	Hm, really?
16:21	rcfox	Oh, I forgot say. :x
16:21	rcfox	rakudo: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class Block { method Num { return self.(); } }; my $b = {{{{{{{{{{3}}}}}}}}}}; say $b();
16:21	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«3␤»
16:21	rcfox	Sorry for all of the flooding...
16:21		cognominal joined #perl6
16:24	bbkr	was 'break' replaced by something in spec? cannot find it anymore in S04 and it's reported in http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=69010
16:25	pmichaud	proceed, I think.
16:26		Ross joined #perl6
16:28		tylercurtis joined #perl6
16:30	bbkr	rakudo: for ^8 {.say; proceed;}; say 123;
16:30	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«0␤ at line 1␤1␤ at line 1␤2␤ at line 1␤3␤ at line 1␤4␤ at line 1␤5␤ at line 1␤6␤ at line 1␤7␤ at line 1␤123␤»
16:31		timbunce joined #perl6
16:31	bbkr	rakudo: my $x = 0; for ^8 {$x++; proceed;}; say $x;
16:31	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT« at line 1␤ at line 1␤ at line 1␤ at line 1␤ at line 1␤ at line 1␤ at line 1␤ at line 1␤8␤»
16:32	molecules	moritz_: Added your explanation of != and !== (in my own words). Feel free to edit/delete anything I contribute. Writing involves refactoring just like code. Thanks for the opportunity to contribute.
16:32	molecules	moritz_: To the Perl 6 book, that is.
16:32	dalek	book: cc7c5a6 \| molecules++ \| src/operators.pod:
16:32	dalek	book: Added explanation of the equivalent "not equals" operators. Thanks moritz!
16:32	dalek	book: moritz's original text:
16:32	dalek	book: != is a convenience, and you get !== by applying the ! meta operator to infix ==
16:32	dalek	book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/c[…]31a51708945dbde76
16:32	pmichaud	bbkr: oh, did you mean "break" as in "exit a loop"? That's 'last', same as p5.
16:33	pmichaud	afk, dinner
16:33		Axius joined #perl6
16:34	bbkr	pmichaud: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=69010 - looks like 'break' was builtin command back then. i'm trying to check if ticket can be closed because it references method not in spec anymore
16:37		jaldhar joined #perl6
16:38	dalek	book: a0e675b \| molecules++ \| src/operators.pod:
16:38	dalek	book: corrected "on of the keys" to "one of the keys"
16:38	dalek	book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/c[…]88cc7d51cb7f0d04a
16:43		cdarroch joined #perl6
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16:56	molecules	[Coke]: about "has $b" see Apocalypse 12 (http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/[…]ign/apo/A12.html)
16:56	molecules	[Coke]: under the section "An Easy Example": [Update: The "." form of the attribute syntax is now construed to always be a virtual dispatch to the accessor, so you can use that syntax in any of the child classes too.
16:56	molecules	[Coke]: To refer to the private storage you now use "!" in place of the ".". Within the lexical scope of the class you may omit even that.]
16:57	[Coke]	molecules: thanks, yes. BTW, don't use the apocolyses, they are out of date with respect to the synopsis.
16:57		d4rt joined #perl6
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17:04		ash_ joined #perl6
17:07	ash_	ping moritz_
17:07	molecules	[Coke]: Thanks. I forgot about that.
17:08	ash_	or anyone that uses feather3 i guess
17:09	ash_	when i try to build rakudo on it, it always gets to parrot src/gen/perl6.pbc --target=pir src/gen/core.pm > src/gen/core.pir, then that takes forever and never finishes
17:09	ash_	does anyone else have that problem?
17:13	PerlJam	how much RAM does feather3 have?
17:13	[Coke]	ash_: that requires a gig of ram to complete.
17:13	ash_	i don't know how much ram feather3 has, let me check
17:15	ash_	its got 2 gigs of ram
17:16	PerlJam	ash_: In my experience "never finishes" is indicative of thrashing, so I don't have any other ideas at this point.
17:16	ash_	hmm, maybe i can build it on another computer and transfer it?
17:16	[Coke]	possible.
17:17	ash_	p6eval uses feather3, so... it's built it
17:17	PerlJam	ash_: if it's "the same"
17:17	ash_	i think its feather3...
17:17	ash_	actually, i could be completely wrong on that
17:17	* [Coke]	is unfamiliar with various feathers, and just uses "feather".
17:17	PerlJam	ash_: perhaps you have a personal memory limit?
17:17	ash_	maybe
17:18	ash_	i have sudo permissions, maybe sudo won't have a memory limit...
17:18	PerlJam	[Coke]: yeah, I've long since forgotten what the various feathers are for and just use the one myself
17:20	ash_	PerlJam: do you have access to feather3? or have you successfully built rakudo on feather? (just curious if its just me)
17:21	PerlJam	I'm not sure if I have an account on feather 3 or not. If so, I haven't used it in forever.
17:22	PerlJam	also, I don't think rakudo builds on feather1 anymore and I don't know the relationship between feather1 and feather3
17:22	PerlJam	at least, I seem to recall that I couldn't build rakudo on feather1 the last time that I tried.
17:23	ash_	i might nice it and leave it in a screen in the background and just see if it ever finishes...
17:25		ashleydev joined #perl6
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17:42	* araujo	wonders what is a good name to refer to a function that turns "strings" into an implementation-defined object in a programm
17:42		Holy_Cow joined #perl6
17:43	[particle]	"implementation-defined object"... examples?
17:49	rcfox	Hey guys, I did a write-up about a little experiment I did with Perl 6, and I'd love some comments on whether it's correct, or interesting, or rambly. http://blogs.perl.org/users/ry[…]hy-of-perl-6.html
17:51		rlb3 joined #perl6
17:55	gfldex	std: role foo {}; my $bar = { 2 }; $bar does foo;
17:55	p6eval	std 31897: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 117m␤»
17:55	gfldex	o.0
17:55	gfldex	perl6++
17:57		risou_ joined #perl6
17:58		M_o_C joined #perl6
17:59	avuserow	monkey typing scares me.
18:02		ghyspran joined #perl6
18:02	gfldex	rcfox: what you do should work but you leave a question
18:02	gfldex	rcfox: why would that be cool?
18:08	rcfox	For things like robotics, you have transformations that are the result of the multiplication of several matrices. If you just had to do the multiplication once, it might save computational effort.
18:09	rcfox	(I say might because I'm not sure if there would actually be a gain when you factor in tranversing the trees each time. At worst, it should be a net gain of 0, I think.)
18:09	rcfox	s/tranversing/traversing/
18:10	rcfox	Oh, you probably meant that I should answer this in the post.
18:10	rcfox	I will have to get back to that. I need to sleep now.
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18:15	GeneralMaximus	potentially stupid question: i can't use sockets from Rakudo, and i haven't been able to find a solution. parrot, otoh, appears to have a fairly complete sockets api. can i mix pir and Perl? all i want to do is read from a socket.
18:17	sorear	quite easily
18:17	sorear	read src/core/*.pm
18:17	[Coke]	(it helps that chunks of Rakudo are written in Rakudo.)
18:18	PerlJam	GeneralMaximus: maybe you could flesh out IO::Socket a bit more?
18:18	GeneralMaximus	ah, those modules look helpful
18:18	Tene	I thought that rakudo did have an IO::Socket...
18:18	PerlJam	Tene: it does. It's minimal
18:18	Tene	GeneralMaximus: yes, you can use individual pir ops straight from rakudo with: pir::foo();
18:19	Tene	you can also embed literal pir with Q:PIR { ... };
18:19	Tene	PerlJam: Ah, thanks.
18:19	GeneralMaximus	PerlJam, i could try. that's all i can say for now (being new to both perl and parrot) :p
18:20	GeneralMaximus	okay, i'm looking at the core modules now. thanks sorear.
18:20		oha joined #perl6
18:24	araujo	[particle], well, for example, I have a string, but then using that string I can create native objects like int, or float in a very generic way, I just can't find a good general name for such a function :P
18:25	[particle]	string_to_datatype, string_to_object, datatype_from_string?
18:26	[particle]	string_to_native? i'm full of names.
18:26	[Coke]	unmarshal?
18:26	[Coke]	hurm. close but not quite.
18:27	[particle]	what's the encoding of the string?
18:27	[particle]	araujo: ^^
18:28	araujo	utf8
18:36		envi^home joined #perl6
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19:11	sorear	araujo: read?
19:11	sorear	parse?
19:16		perlygatekeeper left #perl6
19:17	frettled	sjn: The show-and-tell part of Perl 6-ishness at Oslo.pm was rather crappy, I'm afraid, but I got to show off a few nifty features in Perl 6 regarding datastructures, .perl, typing, and some other elementary stuff.
19:17		takadonet left #perl6
19:19	snarkyboojum	araujo: conjure :)
19:20		offerkaye joined #perl6
19:21	offerkaye	Hi
19:21	avuserow	Ahoy
19:21		ash_ joined #perl6
19:25		oha joined #perl6
19:27	ash_	ping moritz_
19:35	[Coke]	15:31 <@DrForr> Or hire Spinal Tap.
19:35	[Coke]	15:31 < Coke> This Perl Goes to Six.
19:35	[Coke]	15:32 <@DrForr> You... are numb... never mind.
19:38		PZt joined #perl6
19:41	[Coke]	phenny: ask moritz_ - what was the blocker to building all the bits of core.pm separately and then combining the PIR instead of the PM?
19:41	phenny	[Coke]: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
19:42		jaldhar joined #perl6
19:43	offerkaye	Hi [Coke]
19:44	offerkaye	Do you know by any chance, does P6 "chomp" accept only strings? Not a list?
19:45	oha	i've noticed a change in the last rev. rule foo { :i \|\| A \|\| B } the :i _was_ considered empty, and the alternation matched only A or B, but in the last :i is considered like :i '' and the alternation allow the empty match too. i have no idea if the first was correct or the last, but it got changed
19:46		REPLeffect joined #perl6
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19:47	[particle]	offerkaye: our Str multi method chomp ( Str $string: ) is export
19:48		meppl joined #perl6
19:48	[particle]	as currently defined in S32::Str
19:48	offerkaye	I saw that but I wasn't sure what "multi method" means
19:48	[particle]	ok, it means more than one method signature can be defined
19:49	[particle]	so a user can provide their own method of the same name with a different sig
19:50	[particle]	but as specced, it only takes Str now
19:51	offerkaye	Since in P5 it can also work on a list, I hope that gets improved sometime
19:52	offerkaye	Anyway thanks for the help [particle] .
19:53	[particle]	offerkaye: it can... you can patch the spec.
19:53	[particle]	if @Larry doesn't like it, it'll get reverted.
19:53	[particle]	that's how we operate here, don't be shy.
19:53	offerkaye	:)
19:54		d4rt joined #perl6
19:57	offerkaye	[particle]++,maybe you could explain to me the other parts of "our Str multi method chomp ( Str $string: ) is export"? I guess the "( Str $string: ) is the argument part? But what is the "our" and "is export"? And why "Str $string" and not just "Str"?
19:58	[particle]	( Str $string: ) is the method's signature, it defines the parameters that are accepted
19:58	araujo	snarkyboojum, hehe that is a nice one
19:58		tadzik joined #perl6
19:58	[particle]	Str $string means that you automatically have the first parameter named $string in your code
19:59	tylercurtis	"Str multi method ..." means it returns a Str.
20:00	[particle]	'our' means it's package scoped, and is the default, so 'sub foo(...) {...}' mean sthe same as 'our sub foo(...) {...}'
20:01	[particle]	offerkaye: for the gory details, S06, S11 and S12 have lots of info
20:01	tylercurtis	[particle]: our is there so the return type can precede the "multi method" part?
20:01	[particle]	our is there to be explicit, if i understand correctly
20:01		Ross joined #perl6
20:02	offerkaye	"you automatically have the first parameter named $string in your code" - I don't really understand that. Could you give me an example?
20:04		jhuni joined #perl6
20:05	offerkaye	Also I'm not sure why the spec would define the scope of a function - isn't that the code's task? If I write " my $str = chomp ("foo\n"); ", $str will not be package scoped it will be lexically scoped...
20:05	tylercurtis	offerkaye: The function chomp is still package scoped to the Str class.
20:06	offerkaye	star: {my $str = chomp ("foo\n");} ; say $str;
20:06	p6eval	star 2010.07: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$str' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/Zm3Ok9xhuM:22)␤»
20:07	snarkyboojum	subroutines are lexically scoped by default in Perl 6
20:08	[particle]	sorry, i'm on the phone for 10 more minutes or so
20:08	offerkaye	tylercurtis: ah, you're saying that I can have another "chomp" function which is scoped to the (sorry don't know the name) List class... and I guess that's where the multi method part comes in?
20:08	snarkyboojum	so they default to my scope not our
20:08	snarkyboojum	as I understand it
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20:09	tylercurtis	offerkaye: in a method's signature, a colon instead of a comma following the first parameter means it's the invocant of the method. The name is just for documentary purposes, which doesn't really matter in this case, but it's nice when the exported method takes multiple arguments.
20:09	tylercurtis	offerkaye: yes.
20:10	tylercurtis	snarkyboojum: Not for methods, though, no?
20:11		Ross joined #perl6
20:11	offerkaye	tylercurtis: what a relief to understand that, thanks :)
20:11		Ross joined #perl6
20:11	offerkaye	But "means it's the invocant of the method" - what does "invocant" mean? It's almost like a word in English ;)
20:11	snarkyboojum	tylercurtis: I'm just referring to particles example where he states sub foo means the same as our sub foo
20:12		d4rt_ joined #perl6
20:12	offerkaye	snarkyboojum: [particle] is AFK 10 min, on phone
20:12	tylercurtis	snarkyboojum: ah, right.
20:12	offerkaye	In case you were wondering :)
20:13	snarkyboojum	tylercurtis: according to the spec methods are neither my or our scope, they have 'has' semantics
20:13	offerkaye	Well, someone is having connection problems tonight...
20:13	[Coke]	invocant is 'self'.
20:16	tylercurtis	snarkyboojum: Ah. Why does spec use our scope for exported multi methods?
20:17	offerkaye	Hmm that still doesn't explain to me why the spec couldn't just say "chomp (Str)" and mean the input argument is of type Str. Also what [particle] wrote ""you automatically have the first parameter named $string in your code" still doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you're both talking about if someone defines a new chomp method, so inside his code he would get... what?
20:17	offerkaye	$string?
20:17	offerkaye	self?
20:17	[Coke]	offerkaye: chomp is already a method.
20:17		yxes joined #perl6
20:18	[Coke]	the spec presumably names the args for clarity. I guess it's not working. =-)
20:18	[Coke]	if you write your own method, you do not have to call the first positional argument $string.
20:18	[Coke]	(I hope)
20:18	PerlJam	offerkaye: are you familiar with named parameters?
20:19	[Coke]	PerlJam: (this isn't a named parameter, is it?)
20:19	PerlJam	no, it isn't
20:19	PerlJam	but I think that might be a source of confusion
20:19	offerkaye	PerlJam: you mean my $obj = Foobar->new({item1=>"foo"}) ?
20:19	[Coke]	offerkaye: WOOF that's fivey.
20:20	offerkaye	Ah sry thought PerlJam meant P5 named params
20:20	offerkaye	I don't know P6 named params sorry :(
20:20	PerlJam	Hmm
20:20	[Coke]	offerkaye: so, the fact that the positional argument is mentioned by name is only for explanatory reasons, SFAICT.
20:21	[Coke]	the other point was that if you define a sub/method to take a (Str $foo), you don't have to do the perl5-y "my $foo = shift"; - you already have a variable called $foo available in teh method body. but that is not tied to the reason for showing it in teh spec.
20:21	offerkaye	ah!
20:22	offerkaye	"ou already have a variable called $foo available in teh method body." - that's what I was trying to say - rather badly :)
20:22	offerkaye	ok that makes sense, thanks :)
20:22	[Coke]	whee!
20:24	[particle]	square-bracketed nicks for the win!
20:24		ambs joined #perl6
20:26	offerkaye	So "our Str multi method chomp ( Str $string: ) is export" means chomp is a function which is globally scoped in the Str package, can be overriden with other "chomp" functions with different signatures and accepts a Str as argument where if you override chomp with your own, you'll get a variable called $string available inside the method body. So far so good?
20:26		xinming joined #perl6
20:26	offerkaye	And what does "is export" mean?
20:27	PerlJam	it doesn't actually make any statement about the ability to override chomp
20:27	offerkaye	:(
20:28	offerkaye	"[22:48] <[particle]> ok, it means more than one method signature can be defined [22:49] <[particle]> so a user can provide their own method of the same name with a different sig"
20:28	[Coke]	offerkaye: "where if you override chomp with your own, you'll get a variable called $string available inside the method body.
20:28	offerkaye	-> points at [particle] ... ;)
20:28	[Coke]	"
20:28	PerlJam	offerkaye: right, that's not "overriding"
20:28	[Coke]	No.
20:28		orafu joined #perl6
20:28	[particle]	chomp is a method, not a function
20:29	[particle]	sorry, s/override/define/
20:29	[Coke]	the signature of the builtin chomp method does not guarantee that.
20:29	offerkaye	" provide their own method of the same name" - how would you call it if not to override?
20:29	PerlJam	offerkaye: participates in multi-method dispatch.
20:29		masak joined #perl6
20:30	masak	backslash oh slash
20:30	offerkaye	Good evening masak :)
20:30	masak	buona sea
20:30	masak	s/sea/sera/
20:30	[particle]	rakudo: multi sub foo (Str $string) {say $string ~ " is a " ~ $string.WHAT; }; multi sub foo (Int $int) {say "$int is an Int";}; foo(1); foo('abc');
20:30	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«1 is an Int␤abc is a Str()␤»
20:30	offerkaye	PerlJam: how does a method "participate in multi-method dispatch."
20:30	PerlJam	masak: is that greek or something?
20:30	masak	right, placing backspace right above Enter was a really good idea...
20:30	cognominal	%*ENV seems readonly :(
20:30	masak	PerlJam: something.
20:30	[particle]	offerkaye: see my example above
20:31	[Coke]	offerkaye: do you know what multi-method dispatch is?
20:31	masak	PerlJam: hm, seems it's supposed to be one word in Italian: 'buonasera'. guess they use it a lot, then.
20:31	masak	cognominal: that's a shortcoming in Rakudo, not in the spec.
20:32	PerlJam	masak: oddly, I think it's because I was seeing the text rather than hearing it that I didn't recognize what language it was.
20:33	offerkaye	[particle]: yeah I see, sub "foo" can have multiple types of input arguments (and presumably output ones too)
20:33	masak	PerlJam: oh, I thought you were joking. :P
20:33	PerlJam	masak: no, just a minor neuronal misfire :)
20:35	offerkaye	I see now why you were against the word "override", it doesn't, really. But there must be a better way of saying it than "participate in multi-method dispatch.". Maybe "can have more than one signature"?
20:36	masak	good blog post: http://blogs.perl.org/users/ry[…]hy-of-perl-6.html
20:36	masak	offerkaye: "it multies" :)
20:37		nimiezko joined #perl6
20:37	offerkaye	:)
20:37	offerkaye	That could be an inside joke... and for once I would get it :)
20:37	PerlJam	offerkaye: "override" is like "X replaces Y". "participates in MMD" is more like "X adds to Y"
20:37	[Coke]	the multi is a shortcut for that. you'd probably never say PIMMD unless you were explaining MMD.
20:39	snarkyboojum	overloading perhaps c.f. override
20:39	offerkaye	So "our Str multi method chomp ( Str $string: ) is export" means chomp is a function which is globally scoped in the Str package, accepts a Str as argument by default, can have multiple signatures and if you define your own signature you get a variable $string inside the method body... right?
20:39	PerlJam	offerkaye: s/function/method/
20:39	offerkaye	snarkyboojum: I tend to think of overloading for ops but yeah, could be appropriate.
20:40	offerkaye	BTW masak did you write "providing snippets of Perl 6 clarification so perfectly worded and so brilliantly illustrative that the unsuspecting reader will be brought close to tears"?
20:41	masak	that was me, yes.
20:41	[Coke]	offerkaye: stop repeating "you get a variable named..."
20:41		tommyd joined #perl6
20:41	offerkaye	masak: you are my God :D
20:41	PerlJam	offerkaye: he may have misinterpretted why the reader is crying however ;-)
20:41	offerkaye	lol
20:41	masak	offerkaye: that sounds a bit too responsible fot my taste...
20:41	tadzik	offerkaye: where is this from?
20:42	offerkaye	u4x README
20:42	masak	u4x README.
20:42	tadzik	:D
20:42	snarkyboojum	masak: unless you want to be a Greek god :P
20:42	offerkaye	snarkyboojum: Italian God at this moment?
20:42	masak	snarkyboojum: Greek god -- does it come with admirable abs?
20:43	offerkaye	[Coke]: So you don't get $string inside the method body?
20:43	[particle]	it comes with a pile of debt.
20:43	tylercurtis	offerkaye: if you have a $string parameter, yes.
20:43	[Coke]	offerkaye: which method body?
20:43	[Coke]	tylercurtis: SSSH.
20:43	snarkyboojum	masak: the alliteration is killing me :)
20:43	[Coke]	the method in the spec?
20:44	[particle]	rakudo: multi sub foo (Str $string) {say $string ~ " is a " ~ $string.WHAT; }; foo('abc'); # note i never declared 'my $string'
20:44	offerkaye	[Coke]: "tylercurtis: SSSH." hehe :)
20:44	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«abc is a Str()␤»
20:44	[Coke]	or the method that you define in your own code?
20:44	offerkaye	The method you define
20:45	offerkaye	How could you have access to the original spec "chomp" body? Presumably that's safe inside Rakudo's guts...
20:45	masak	snarkyboojum: oh, the alliteration's accidental. :) complete coincidence.
20:46	offerkaye	rakudo: multi sub chomp (Str $string) {say $string ~ " is a " ~ $string.WHAT; }; chomp('abc'); # note i never declared 'my $string'
20:46	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«abc is a Str()␤»
20:46	PerlJam	offerkaye: in theory, everything is introspectable.
20:46	[Coke]	offerkaye: right. so if it's on the method you define... the variable name used in the argument in the spec's has NOTHING to do with the name of the variable you pick.
20:46	snarkyboojum	masak: :P
20:46	offerkaye	Did I just overload or override? hmmm...
20:46	masak	offerkaye: having $string in a signature is just as much a declaration as 'my $string'
20:46	[Coke]	so the fact that it says $string does NOT mean that YOU will get a $string.
20:46	[Coke]	the fact that YOU say $string does.
20:47	masak	offerkaye: override.
20:47	[Coke]	whoever said that you is conflating method signatures in general with the definitions in the spec.
20:47	offerkaye	[Coke]: so you're saying, I only got $string because I declared it?
20:47	[Coke]	yes.
20:48	[Coke]	if YOU write "method chomp (Str $strung) {}".... you name your argument $strung, and you get that variable in YOUR method body.
20:48	[Coke]	the fact that you're adding another chomp doesn't mean you get the original chomp's $string.
20:48	[Coke]	your method doesn't know anything about that.
20:49	masak	right, each multi is an island.
20:49	[particle]	an introspectable island
20:51		soc joined #perl6
20:51	soc	hi
20:51	PerlJam	soc: greets
20:51	soc	just wanted to say thanks for your great string implementation
20:51	alester	I smell a test case! http://zmievski.org/2010/08/the-prime-that-wasnt
20:51	alester	Or should I put it in Parrot?
20:52	soc	perl6 seems to be the first programming language ever which did touch a unicode book before implementing strings :-)
20:52	offerkaye	So if the spec said ""our Str multi method chomp ( Str ) is export" without the "$string:" part, that would mean... what? That an overloaded chomp with a different signature (or the same for that matter) doesn't have automatic access to it's input argument/s?
20:52		hercynium joined #perl6
20:52	[Coke]	alester: <squint> is that perl6 code?
20:52	[particle]	soc: thanks!
20:53	alester	No, it's a regex.
20:53	soc	the possibility to choose between bytes, codes and graphs is a great idea, forcing people to think about what they want
20:53	alester	but it fails in PHP land.
20:53	alester	because of backtracking.
20:53	tylercurtis	soc: hopefully, we'll even have that actually implemented at some point. :)
20:54	soc	tylercurtis: but the idea looks good at the moment
20:54	soc	and it works halfway ...
20:54	offerkaye	s/it's/its/;
20:54	[Coke]	alester: I would throw it at nqp-rx, after translating it P6.
20:54	alester	which is in Parrot, right?
20:54	soc	and standardizing the internal representation/normalization in which UTF-8 is stored internally is a very big improvement too
20:55	[Coke]	hugme: nqp-rx?
20:55	soc	that's makes string comparisons in O(n) possible again (i hope)
20:55	PerlJam	soc: the person you need to thank really is TimToady ... he's the one who can "see around corners" and comes up with stuff like this :)
20:55	soc	does someone know if the specification says something about sorting the diacritic combinung marks?
20:56	[Coke]	parrot includes nqp-rx, but it comes from ...
20:56	soc	PerlJam: ok!
20:56	[Coke]	http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx
20:56	soc	TimToady: ping
20:56	[Coke]	but that's just my vote.
20:56	alester	I don't know from nqp. Waaah.
20:56	alester	But I really do want to help out.
20:56	alester	One of my Growth Goals at work is to learn Perl 6.
20:57	tylercurtis	alester: NQP is a subset-ish of Perl 6.
20:57	alester	right.
20:58	[particle]	soc: i believe that you can modify the sort to be diacritic-agnostic/aware... looking
20:58	alester	well, now wait.
20:58	alester	oh, that's the test repo?
20:58	[Coke]	but all the basic regex stuff in parrot and rakudo comes from there.
20:58	alester	oh, I just don't know.
20:58	alester	Waah.
20:58	alester	I really need to write code.
20:58	PerlJam	[particle]: I seem to remember something analogous to :ignorecase for diacritics
20:59	[particle]	aye... :ignoreaccent ?
20:59	[Coke]	... I guess it depends on what you're testing. could be a regression test for rakudo, e.g. that tested across potentialy regex impl.
20:59	[Coke]	<shrug> write it in perl6. that's easier to do anyway.
21:00	alester	and then backport it down.
21:00		bgs100 joined #perl6
21:00	bgs100	python
21:00	bgs100	Er
21:00	bgs100	Fail
21:00	alester	my big overarching goal is to write File::Next in P6
21:00	bgs100	Was trying to join the channel; ignore please
21:00	[particle]	alester: that' was going to be my first suggestion
21:00	masak	bgs100: you succeeded! welcome!
21:00	PerlJam	alester: and then ack? :)
21:00		trexy joined #perl6
21:01	tadzik	alester: couldn't we integrate it with File::Find?
21:01	bgs100	Hi masak, yay :p
21:01	alester	tadzik: Why would I want to?
21:01	tadzik	alester: the P6 File::Find returns a lazy list
21:01	alester	hmm
21:01	tadzik	alester: I just don't think File::Next is so needed now
21:01	tadzik	File::Find does not suck anymore ;)
21:01	masak	bgs100: so, you're interested in Perl 6 and Python? :)
21:01	tadzik	well, maybe the code does, but at least the concept isn't broken :)
21:02	bgs100	masak, Yes
21:02	trexy	hi
21:02	masak	bgs100: me too.
21:02	masak	trexy: hi!
21:02	trexy	just downloaded Rakudo *
21:02	trexy	well done on the release
21:02	masak	trexy: yay!
21:02	trexy	as an avid lurker for 5+ years
21:02	trexy	it's been great to see it come to fruition
21:02	bgs100	Hi trexy
21:02	tadzik	alester: so the CPAN synopsis example would be my $list = find('/tmp'); for $list -> $file { #`[do something] }
21:02	trexy	hi
21:02	bgs100	masak, ah :)
21:03	masak	trexy: what's the difference between an ordinary lurker and an avid one? :P
21:03	trexy	indeed
21:03	trexy	well I suppose I feel part of the channel albeit
21:03	trexy	my active contributions are small
21:04	tadzik	alester: anyway, File::Next seems like non-sucky File::Find replacement, so I see your point :)
21:04	trexy	I just opened the book and was surprised to see the butterfly didn't look like Camelia
21:04	masak	trexy: that makes me genuinely happy.
21:04	trexy	I'd just like to vote for Camelia++
21:04	masak	trexy: would you rather have Camelia there?
21:04	masak	ok.
21:04	trexy	absolutely
21:04	trexy	I think she is a strong brand
21:04	soc	perl6: $str1 = "tést"; $str2 = "te\u0301st"; if ($str1 == $str2) {print "Same"};
21:05	p6eval	pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected " ="␤ expecting "::"␤ Variable "$str1" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤ at /tmp/hoK8ldT1Sv line 1, column 6␤»
21:05	p6eval	..rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized backslash sequence: '\u' at line 22, near "0301st\"; i"␤»
21:05	trexy	and I realise she may take some time to get used to
21:05	PerlJam	trexy: a little too strong for some people :)
21:05	soc	ouch, sorr<
21:05	trexy	but a brand needs to be distinctive
21:05	snarkyboojum	trexy: I was surprised too, but I also found the replacement more gentle on the eyes :)
21:05	trexy	yes
21:05	masak	me too.
21:05	trexy	I think the replacement is very nice/aesthetic etc
21:05	bgs100	Hmm
21:05	trexy	however it needs to have personality imho
21:06	ash_	ping moritz_
21:06		jferrero joined #perl6
21:06	* bgs100	should hurry up and download Rakudo
21:06	trexy	a mascot logo needs to have some 'spirit'
21:06	trexy	and O(fun) etc
21:06	alester	waaaah, emebedded tabs in modules
21:06	* tadzik	still thinks having a Bug as a language mascott is not the best idea
21:06	PerlJam	someone should do an animation of sri's butterfly morphing into Camelia
21:06	trexy	that would be cool
21:07	trexy	I understand what sri was driving at
21:07		ascent_ joined #perl6
21:07	alester	What is Cool?
21:07	trexy	but I think there is a requirement for a 'love' mark
21:07	trexy	something that people can have an emotional attachment too
21:07		drbean joined #perl6
21:07	tadzik	alester: it makes the class have the usual methods, I used this so the stringified filename could be used as a normal string, e.g. .IO can be used on it
21:07	trexy	like all good trade marks in the end it is a collection of 'fuzzies'
21:08	trexy	;-)
21:08	alester	tadzik: You wrote File::Find then?
21:08	tadzik	alester: yep
21:08	PerlJam	or maybe a little movie of a realish butterfly flying around where it lands on a camel's hump ... and then a few seconds later they are both crushed by Camelia :->
21:08	trexy	Camelia - can be that mark imho
21:08	frettled	trexy, masak: at Oslo.pm this afternoon, those who knew about Camelia's looks were pleasantly surprised about which the book draft had chosen, and those who didn't know anything, thought it looked good all by itself.
21:08	tadzik	alester: the P6 one of course :)
21:08	alester	And so Find.pir is a copmiled-down version of Find.pm?
21:08	tadzik	alester: probably, yes
21:09	trexy	I think it looks good to - but that does not necessarily make for a good trade mark
21:09	alester	It seems strange to me to install modules under /usr/local/lib/parrot
21:09	tadzik	oh btw, did today's pmichaud++ patch for rakudo made it able to compile the standalone scripts?
21:09	trexy	that needs to be applied to lots of different things (mugs, favicon, tshirts) etc
21:09	tadzik	I wouldn't mind a Camelia t-shirt I must say
21:10	trexy	anyway just wanted to register a camelia++ and hope that people can get behind her - as she represents a chance to get some strong branding for Perl
21:10	frettled	I think the idea of a multi-coloured butterfly works well, even if said butterfly doesn't look exactly like Camelia.
21:11	snarkyboojum	I would buy a Camelia t-shirt :)
21:11	* tylercurtis	also likes Camelia.
21:11	trexy	me too
21:12	tadzik	alester: that's what Star does?
21:12	snarkyboojum	or even a Camelia sticker to stick to my laptop :)
21:12		ambs joined #perl6
21:12	alester	That seems to be the case, yes
21:13	tadzik	strange. Well, I install them all to my ~/.perl6/lib, so I dunno
21:13	tadzik	alester: the case? It doesn't work there?
21:13		am0c joined #perl6
21:13	alester	I didnt' say it doesn't work.
21:13	alester	I just figured that the Perl modules would be installed separate from /usr/local/lib/parrot
21:13	tadzik	hmm
21:14	alester	It's at /usr/local/lib/parrot/2.6.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib/File/Find.{pm,pir}
21:14	tadzik	I think the thing is, the .pirs are not Perl-only
21:14	pmichaud	good evening, #perl6
21:14	tadzik	any Parrot language can use .pir modules, no?
21:14	alester	Sure, but then why the .pm there?
21:14	tadzik	dunno
21:14	tadzik	pmichaud: 'evening
21:14	trexy	ages ago I wrote up a something about trade marks for Perl - please disregard the commentary related to "perl.com" - but I think Camelia ticks a lot of these boxes:
21:14	aCiD2	What would a perl 6 regular expression look like for match any amount of stars, followed by text look like. I have many lines like this, and want to match the text of each line "** Foo" -> "Foo"
21:15	trexy	lovemarks for Perl: http://thegoo.org/love-marks-for-perl.pdf
21:15	aCiD2	I have: token node { ^^ ''+ \s+ $<text>=[\N] \n } but it doesn't seem to work right
21:16		briang joined #perl6
21:16	[particle]	aCiD2: any amount of stars, including 0?
21:16	pmichaud	rakudo: "** Foo" ~~ token { ^^ '' + \s+ $<text>=[\N] \n }; say $<text>
21:16	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«␤»
21:16	aCiD2	sorry, 1 or more
21:16	pmichaud	rakudo: "** Foo" ~~ token { ^^ ''+ \s+ $<text>=[\N] \n }; say $<text>
21:16	[particle]	ok
21:16	masak	slides work &
21:16	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«␤»
21:16		Guest23195 left #perl6
21:16	pmichaud	oh, there's no \n there.
21:17		Mowah joined #perl6
21:17	pmichaud	rakudo: "** Foo\n" ~~ token { ^^ ''+ \s+ $<text>=[\N] \n }; say $<text>
21:17	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: OUTPUT«Foo␤»
21:17	pmichaud	there.
21:17	aCiD2	hrm, is that different to what I have?
21:17	tylercurtis	aCiD2: your example didn't have a newline in the text.
21:18	offerkaye	PerlJam, [particle], [Coke] - thank you all for taking the time to help me better understand the spec. I hope it helps me write better docs :)
21:18	aCiD2	my example input is multiple lines of that. But if a newline proceeds (a blank new line) then the match seems to capture a *
21:18	tadzik	oh wow. Is that colomon who did loop optimizations recently?
21:18	soc	does someone know how to get rakudo star? ist there a debian package or a ppa somewhere?
21:18		ascent_ joined #perl6
21:18	tadzik	soc: I doubt it, only the .tar.gz on github
21:19	soc	mhh ... debian-experimental has it ...
21:19	soc	let's see if it installs on ubuntu ..
21:19	tadzik	oh
21:20	pmichaud	phenny: tell moritz_ I decided to work from my room (couldn't get network addr on 1st floor wifi)
21:20	phenny	pmichaud: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
21:20	offerkaye	Good night all.
21:20	aCiD2	http://gist.github.com/507173 ok, this is what I'm working with
21:20	aCiD2	but no output from this...
21:20	bgs100	Wheee
21:21	tadzik	http://nopaste.snit.ch/22538 -- damn, that's something
21:21	PerlJam	rakudo: say '1' x 22201 ~~ /^ 1? $ \| (11+?) $0+ $/ ?? "composite" !! "prime"; # because I was curious
21:21	tylercurtis	aCiD2: the empty lines are probably problematic
21:21	p6eval	rakudo efe72c: ( no output )
21:22	pmichaud	tylercurtis++ # correct, it doesn't match empty lines
21:22	PerlJam	I guess it's just too slow
21:22	pmichaud	in fact, it doesn't match the first empty line
21:22	pmichaud	so it stops.
21:23	pmichaud	(The first empty line being the one before "* Hello\n")
21:23	aCiD2	so do I surround <node> with \s* ?
21:23	pmichaud	aCiD2: something like that. Could also do: token TOP { [ <node> \| ^^ \h* \n ]+ }
21:24		wamba joined #perl6
21:24	aCiD2	so for this to match, <node> has to match directly from the first character? Which in this case it doesn't do because there is no leading star
21:24		soc left #perl6
21:24	tadzik	g'night #perl6
21:25	PerlJam	pmichaud: does nqp/rakudo distinguish between \| and \|\| now?
21:25	pmichaud	PerlJam: no.
21:26		trexy left #perl6
21:28	sorear	it's pmichaud!
21:28	moritz_	o/
21:28	phenny	moritz_: 19:41Z <[Coke]> ask moritz_ - what was the blocker to building all the bits of core.pm separately and then combining the PIR instead of the PM?
21:28	sorear	hi
21:28	phenny	moritz_: 21:20Z <pmichaud> tell moritz_ I decided to work from my room (couldn't get network addr on 1st floor wifi)
21:29	pmichaud	phenny: tell [Coke] the main blocker is that all of the bits of core.pm have to be in the same lexical scope.... and that's a challenge to do in the current rakudo + pir implementation.
21:29	phenny	pmichaud: I'll pass that on when [Coke] is around.
21:29	pmichaud	phenny: tell [Coke] but we discussed it at the hackathon today and I think I may have an interim solution to enable separate compilation of the core setting bits.
21:29	phenny	pmichaud: I'll pass that on when [Coke] is around.
21:32	sorear	pmichaud: Did I ever ask you about the stack of backtrack points vs. lazy lists question?
21:32	pmichaud	sorear: I don't recall if you did or not
21:34	moritz_	std: rx:foo/ a /
21:34	p6eval	std 31897: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Unrecognized adverb :foo(1) at /tmp/9dEMEcYRwL line 1:␤------> rx⏏:foo/ a /␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 115m␤»
21:34	moritz_	std: rx:g/ a /
21:34		wamba joined #perl6
21:34	p6eval	std 31897: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 115m␤»
21:34	moritz_	that is... curious
21:34	sorear	howso?
21:34	sorear	pmichaud: TimToady talks about backtracking as being simply a lazy list of cursors
21:35	moritz_	sorear: there are two kinds of adverbs: those that make sense on regexes itself, and those that make sense on calls that involve regexes
21:35	sorear	pmichaud: additionally, that cursors have a transaction chain, and nonlocal cut operators using that chain to disable generators
21:35	moritz_	sorear: for example :g only makes sense on calls (like s:g///, m:g//), not on rx//
21:36	bgs100	std: say "hi"
21:36	p6eval	std 31897: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 115m␤»
21:36	pmichaud	sorear: sure, I've heard TimToady remark about them being lazy lists of cursors
21:36	sorear	pmichaud: (outside Cursor.pmc) I have a slightly bad feeling about this setup. Do you share it?
21:37	pmichaud	I chose not to do it that way in nqp-rx because I can get (I think) more efficient backtracking by simply keeping a resizable integer array of backtracking offsets than I can by keeping closures that produce lazy list structures
21:38	moritz_	std: rxs/a/
21:38	p6eval	std 31897: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Bogus term at /tmp/JKUa0ncTLF line 1 (EOF):␤------> rxs/a/⏏<EOL>␤Undeclared routines:␤ 'a' used at line 1␤ 'rxs' used at line 1␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 116m␤»
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21:38	sorear	Are you treating this as a case of Not Quite, or do you want to change the vision?
21:39	pmichaud	it's one of those places where I figure there may be competing implementations of a common set of functionality, and a standard will arise from evaluating the different implementations. (more)
21:40	pmichaud	so, I'm taking more of a "wait and see" attitude to see if there's some compelling reason to choose one over the other.
21:40	moritz_	std: s:overlap/a/b/
21:40	p6eval	std 31897: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 115m␤»
21:41	pmichaud	at the moment, I'd probably tend to stick with the nqp-rx approach, but I can see why there might be good arguments for a purer approach a-la Cursor.pmc
21:41	moritz_	one reason is probably that it's easier to do matching with non-regex code
21:42	snarkyboojum	pmichaud++ # I just built a working fakecutable from rakudo on OS X
21:42	pmichaud	snarkyboojum: \o/
21:42	snarkyboojum	v. cool :)
21:42	pmichaud	I'm also planning (time permitting) to add a --target=pbc option this week, and I might even get HLL compiler to have an option to go all the way to a fakecutable
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21:43	snarkyboojum	noticed that it doesn't seem to work for scripts reading from @*ARGS
21:43	pmichaud	snarkyboojum: that's possible, yes.
21:44	snarkyboojum	pmichaud: cool - but it does work! something cool about running a perl6 executable :D
21:46	pmichaud	getting tired here, so heading off for a nap
21:46	pmichaud	bbl
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22:09	[Coke]	tell moritz_ Ok, I'll just hold longer. =-)
22:09	phenny	[Coke]: 21:29Z <pmichaud> tell [Coke] the main blocker is that all of the bits of core.pm have to be in the same lexical scope.... and that's a challenge to do in the current rakudo + pir implementation.
22:09	phenny	[Coke]: 21:29Z <pmichaud> tell [Coke] but we discussed it at the hackathon today and I think I may have an interim solution to enable separate compilation of the core setting bits.
22:10	[Coke]	phenny: tell moritz_ Ok, I'll just hold longer. =-)
22:10	phenny	[Coke]: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
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22:15	ericsmith	I just installed rakudo-star-2010.07 and was first struck by the slow speed of execution.
22:15	ericsmith	Just ran a few command with perl6 -e " " and wondered why it was so slow?
22:15	exodist	ericsmith, thats probably everyones reaction
22:16	ericsmith	I hope it improves ...
22:17	sorear	that's not the slow speed of execution you're seeing
22:17	sorear	it's not like perl6 is "executing" the space
22:19	avuserow	ericsmith: speed is improving with every release
22:19	tylercurtis	sorear: it's the slow speed of executing the setting, though, right?
22:19	avuserow	ericsmith: http://www.modernperlbooks.com[…]-rakudo-star.html
22:20	sorear	tylercurtis: more like the slow speed of the parrot bytecode loader
22:20	sorear	tylercurtis: in case you were wondering why #parrot spends so much time on packfiles
22:20	avuserow	that might be a good read for why it's slow and some goals
22:21	sorear	perl5 starts up so quickly because it's compiled all the way to machine code and can be demand paged by the OS
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22:21	sorear	rakudo is considerably larger (due to inefficient bytecode formatting) and mostly bytecode which has to be explicitly loaded
22:21	sorear	we're trying to fix this on multiple fronts
22:22	sorear	more efficient bytecode, better bytecode generator, bytecode demand loading
22:23	ericsmith	Thanks avuserow for that reference, digested ...
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22:40	jnthn	ericsmith: A bunch of the core Rakudo team met today at YAPC::Europe conference and discussed getting things faster. :-) It's an important goal for us.
22:41	jnthn	But first goal was make things work at all. :-)
22:42	Casan	jnthn: how is the italian beer?
22:44	jnthn	Casan: I dunno, I spent the evening drinking Paulner Weiss and Killkenny ;-)
22:45	jnthn	I can certainly say the range of beer available here makes me happy though. :-)]
22:47	Casan	jnthn: splendid. I have to pass pisa this time. but I'm following the collaboration with great interest. love to watch the resulting slides/videos on perl6 from the conf. hopefully soon there will be presentations covering various types of app design patterns with rakudo.
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22:48	ash_	ping moritz_
22:49	jnthn	Casan: You in Denmark at all these days?
22:50	Casan	jnthn: rarely. my new base is in sophia antipolis and by the riviera. I come by once in a while. maybe I should give you a buzz next time I land in cph.. you are also welcome here of course.
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22:51	jnthn	Casan: Let me know. I'm living in Lund these days, so CPH is easy. :-)
22:51	jnthn	Sophia as in Bulgaria?
22:51	Casan	jnthn: yep, I noticed, sounds like an interesting job for you.
22:52	Casan	Sophia as in France.. sophia antipolis is a science park near cannes and nice
22:53	Casan	live by the sea, and go up in the hills for job+edu
22:53	jnthn	Aha, OK. :-)
22:53	jnthn	Going to be at the OSDC in Paris?
22:53	jnthn	(I plan to be. )
22:56	Casan	I'll try to fit it in, could be interesting. I tried to look up the date, but didn't find it.
22:56	Casan	ahh oct.
22:56	jnthn	I think second weekend of oct
22:57	Casan	hehe going to french websites, even when they are in English gets me easily confused.
22:59	sorear	yes?
22:59	Casan	jnthn: sounds good, if $work\|$edu allows. I'll let you know. now go enjoy more beers, and the rest of pisa.
23:00	Casan	good night.
23:00	jnthn	Well, I enjoyed plenty of beers already tonight (started that 6-7 hours ago), and now it's probably more sensible to sleep. ;-)
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23:01	Casan	hah yeah, I know the program. I also know that you are a trained professional ;) tty mate.
23:02	jnthn	night o/
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23:56	sorear	I wonder if the poeple on p6l talking about smart matching know they're all going to be ignored.
23:57	* sorear	doesn't have the heart to tell them
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