Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-08-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 * masak submits suspected backtrace printer bug RT ticket
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00:03 masak two o'clock. time to sleep a tiddle bittle.
00:03 masak 'night, #perl6!
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00:03 TimToady er, nighty night, belatedly
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02:23 diakopter oo; who fixed the timout on p6eval
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02:46 colomon rakudo: say "F2D DAF".trans("D..GA..E" => "GA..B")
02:46 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«B2G GAB␤»
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02:48 colomon hmmm, something slightly wrong there.
02:48 colomon rakudo: say "F2D DAF".trans("D..GA..E" => "GA..F")
02:48 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«B2G GDB␤»
02:52 colomon rakudo: say "F2D DAF".trans("C..GABc..gab" => "FGABc..gab")
02:52 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«B2G GdB␤»
02:53 colomon :\
02:56 colomon rakudo: for $*IN.lines { say $_.trans("C..GABc..gab" => "FGABc..gab"); }
02:56 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 2 passed, 3 (or more) expected␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/Rc2ejz8lmk␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
02:56 colomon rakudo: for $*IN.lines { say "F2D DAF".trans("C..GABc..gab" => "FGABc..gab"); }
02:57 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«(timeout)2G GdB␤B2G GdB␤»
02:58 colomon Anyone know if this bug has been reported yet?
03:03 colomon rakudo: for $*IN.lines { say $_.trans("C..GABc..gab" => "FGABc..f"); }
03:03 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 2 passed, 3 (or more) expected␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/6YGz39Zqgl␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
03:04 colomon rakudo: for $*IN.lines { say $_.trans("C..GABc..gab" => "FGABc..g"); }
03:04 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 2 passed, 3 (or more) expected␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/DdFGMFTxKZ␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
03:12 colomon rakudo: for $*IN.lines { say $_.trans("C" => "F"); }
03:13 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 2 passed, 3 (or more) expected␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/YKbRx1RdKO␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
03:13 colomon rakudo: for $*IN.lines { say $_.trans("C" => "F", "D" => "G"); }
03:13 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«Attributes of type 'INTVAL *' cannot be subclassed from a high-level PMC.␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/1s6FRrSI1A␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
03:13 colomon rakudo: for $*IN.lines { say  "F2D DAF".trans("C" => "F", "D" => "G"); }
03:14 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤F2G GAF␤»
03:22 colomon huh.  looks like if I use "djsgfjsk".trans, it calls Cool.trans, but if I use $_.trans, it's calling something else.
03:23 colomon rakudo: for $*IN.lines { say (~$_).trans("C" => "F", "D" => "G"); }
03:23 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«(timeout)Berge, Land am Strome,␤Land der Äcker, Land der Gome,␤Land der Hämmer, zukunftsreich!␤Heimat bist du großer Söhne,␤Volk, begnadet für das Schöne,␤vielgerühmtes Österreich,␤vielgerühmtes Österreich!␤␤»
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03:44 colomon rakudo: say ([+] 1..10) ** 2 - [+] (1..10).map: * ** 2
03:44 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«2640␤»
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04:24 jferrero rss activity of rakudo.org: 02/25/2009
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05:06 dalek nqp-rx: e71d569 | bacek++ | / (2 files):
05:06 dalek nqp-rx: Use @a.push form instead of pir::push
05:06 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/e​71d56954a43020b7a44cbcf7aaafd5fb7e0067f
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06:15 TiMBuS ok so if you make '..' check for Code on either end, you can return -> $z { $min .. $max($z) }, and this solves the @array[1..*-1] issue. @array[0..*] still broken. is this the right solution?
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06:24 Su-Shee hi everyone.
06:26 moritz_ good morning
06:27 moritz_ TiMBuS: no; the right solution is to make infix:<..> curry on WhateverCode but not on Whatever
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06:51 sorear rakudo: ([X] (<a b c>),(<1 2 3>),(<x y z>)).perl.say
06:51 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
06:53 sorear rakudo: ((<a b c>) X (<1 2 3>) X (<x y z>)).perl.say
06:53 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<X>'. Available candidates are:␤:(Any $lhs, Any $rhs)␤␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/XnCXnX9FhH␤»
06:54 sorear rakudo: ([<a b c>] X [<1 2 3>] X [<x y z>]).perl.say
06:54 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<X>'. Available candidates are:␤:(Any $lhs, Any $rhs)␤␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/M3MFADdCDr␤»
06:54 sorear rakudo: say (1,2 X 3,4)
06:54 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«13142324␤»
06:54 sorear rakudo: say (1,2 X 3,4 X 5,6)
06:54 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<X>'. Available candidates are:␤:(Any $lhs, Any $rhs)␤␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/BcsCRxh1OM␤»
06:54 sorear rakudo: say (1,2 X (3,4 X 5,6))
06:54 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«13151316141514162325232624252426␤»
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06:55 sorear rakudo: say ((1,2) X ((3,4) X (5,6))).perl
06:55 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«((1, 3), (1, 5), (1, 3), (1, 6), (1, 4), (1, 5), (1, 4), (1, 6), (2, 3), (2, 5), (2, 3), (2, 6), (2, 4), (2, 5), (2, 4), (2, 6))␤»
06:56 sorear rakudo: say ((1,2) X ((3,4) X (5,6)).map([$^a, $^b])).perl
06:56 TiMBuS moritz_, does perl 6 have its own way to curry for that case?
06:56 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«Lexical '$a' not found␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/v9Y0eDA_0v␤»
06:56 moritz_ TiMBuS: for which case?
06:56 sorear rakudo hates me
06:57 sorear this should just be 1,2 X 3,4 X 5,6
06:57 TiMBuS er, 1..*-1
06:57 moritz_ sorear: you need a block around [$^a, $^b]
06:57 sorear anyways, diakopter, ping
06:57 moritz_ TiMBuS: that should curry
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06:57 TiMBuS is { $min .. $max($^arg) } not the right way to curry that?
06:57 * sorear is back
06:58 moritz_ it is
06:58 moritz_ wait
06:58 moritz_ { $min ... $^arg }
06:58 moritz_ { $min .. $^arg }
06:58 TiMBuS but the whatevercode is {* - 1}
06:59 TiMBuS so you'd need to run it
07:00 moritz_ ah right
07:01 moritz_ 1..*-1 is supposed to curry exactly like 1+(*-1) does
07:01 moritz_ I'm just not sufficiently awake to explain it correctly :-)
07:02 TiMBuS thats alright then. well then that seems to be what i've done for infix '..', but I still have no idea how to fix [1..*]
07:02 TiMBuS i think range needs to store a Whatever instead of an Inf
07:02 TiMBuS as its $max
07:03 moritz_ I think [1..*] should just curry the [] too
07:03 moritz_ not sure though
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07:04 TiMBuS uh, i mean .[1..*]
07:04 TiMBuS if that makes it different
07:05 TiMBuS postcircumfix[] is getting given a Range which has 1..Inf at the moment, which is why @a[1..*] will hang
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07:09 TiMBuS Range needs to store Whatever instead of Inf (which is why a few days ago I asked if *.Num could just be an Inf)
07:09 moritz_ hm
07:09 moritz_ I think there should be postcircumfix accepting a Range, which clips it to the upper index of the arraz
07:09 moritz_ *array
07:10 moritz_ so that   @a[1..1000]  boils down to  @a[1 .. (@a.end min 1000)]
07:10 TiMBuS rakudo: my @a = <1 2>; @a[0..4].perl.say
07:10 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«("1", "2", Any, Any, Any)␤»
07:11 tylercurtis What about assignment?
07:11 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 1..*; say @a[5]
07:11 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«6␤»
07:11 TiMBuS atm rakudo fills in the gaps. is that per the spec?
07:12 moritz_ no
07:12 tylercurtis I'd expect "my @a; @a[0..4] = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5;" to be essentially the same as "my @a = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5;"
07:12 TiMBuS oh thats a good point
07:14 moritz_ huh
07:14 moritz_ I can't think of a clever way to solve that, and still have the clipping that the spec wants
07:15 TiMBuS parser magic?
07:16 sorear It would seem that Fast Boyer-Moore does not play well with 0x10FFFF-character charsets
07:19 tylercurtis Maybe the returned slice could keep track of both the explicit range and the clipped version and use the former when assigned to.
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07:22 moritz_ TiMBuS: can't be parser magic, the parser doesn't know if something is an lvalue or not
07:22 moritz_ consider
07:22 moritz_ multi f($x is rw) { ... };   f @a[0..4]
07:22 moritz_ there might be other non-rw multis
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07:32 tylercurtis Good night, #perl6.
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07:37 dalek book: 95496c8 | qiuhw++ | README:
07:37 dalek book: typo fix of README.
07:37 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/95​496c8f1fc6951ae39612036eebcd307d22ecf6
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08:04 tadzik good morning
08:07 sorear hello
08:11 moritz_ oh hai
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08:20 tadzik when is Star coming?
08:21 pnate joined #perl6
08:30 moritz_ need to ask pmichaud
08:33 dakkar joined #perl6
08:35 mathw tadzik: just keep paying attention, when you feel the firey warmth on your skin you know it's close
08:35 timbunce joined #perl6
08:35 tadzik :)
08:36 sorear tadzik: a month ago
08:36 tadzik oh noes
08:37 moritz_ I think the question was when *+1 comes out
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09:15 * sorear wonders if he can get away with optimizing /foo/ to /.*?foo/
09:16 moritz_ more like /.*?<(foo/
09:16 moritz_ and only if no :pos modifier is present
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09:17 azawawi hi
09:17 azawawi is $parser->lineof method in STD broken? i get "Use of uninitialized value $ORIG in split at lib/Cursor.pm line 113."
09:18 azawawi ->lineof($pos) should return a line number but it always returns zero now and that warning
09:20 sorear The fact that you could ever use it like that was a bug, now fixed thankfully
09:20 sorear You probably appreciate the fix, since it made compiling modules without system() possible
09:21 azawawi so what is the correct usage now?
09:21 sorear parser support routines should only ever be used in the dynamic scope of parse
09:23 azawawi sorear: that's what is breaking right now, http://pastebin.ca/1924975
09:23 azawawi sorear: i used to do ->lineof in S:H:P6 to get the line number of a position
09:25 sorear assigning the text to $::ORIG in the outer dynamic scope will be needed
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09:29 azawawi sorear: Thanks it worked. A bit hackish though.
09:29 azawawi sorear: S:H:P6 finally going to be released soon :)
09:32 tadzik what is S::H?
09:33 azawawi tadzik: S:H:P6 => Syntax::Highlight::Perl6
09:33 tadzik oh, nice
09:33 azawawi tadzik: http://search.cpan.org/~azawawi/Syntax-Highli​ght-Perl6-0.81/lib/Syntax/Highlight/Perl6.pm
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09:34 masak oh hai, #perl6
09:35 moritz_ phenny: tell pmichaud I've tried to read the code for the operator precedence parser; to me it looks like it would be much cleaner (and more extensible) to store things like %!ohash in actual attributes, and require instantiation for the grammar before parsing; is there a good reason against doing it that way?
09:35 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
09:35 mathw o/ masak
09:36 moritz_ \o masak
09:36 masak \o o/
09:39 sorear masak: I read your paper thingie
09:39 masak the one about searching?
09:40 sorear yea
09:40 masak was it any good?
09:40 sorear well, if we were doing this 10 years ago it would be
09:40 sorear but most of those algorithms have hidden dependencies on the alphabet size
09:41 sorear what's good with 256 or 128 characters is not nearly so good with 0x10FFFE (use codes) or infinity (use graphs)
09:41 azawawi sorear++ #re-compiling modules via STD now works perfectly in Padre
09:42 sorear we might be able to get away with doing (use bytes) searching in many cases, like how you can search English text without knowing about words, it might also be possible to skirt under the encoding
09:43 sorear note that Perl 5 implemented Fast Boyer-Moore with preprocessing, which is explicitly (but tersely) killed in Perl 6 (S29:884)
09:44 moritz_ right, study() never worked with Unicode
09:44 sorear (am I the only one who has ever thought about implementing Karp-Rabin using polynomial fields?)
09:47 masak think so. :)
09:48 * moritz_ wonders what it is that Rabin carps about :-)
09:49 masak moritz_: nono, it's Karp that rabins :)
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09:49 masak S29:891: "Note: P5's tied() is roughly replaced by P6's variable()." only mention of 'variable()'?
09:50 moritz_ fossile
09:50 masak ...should be... VAR()?
09:52 moritz_ probably
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09:54 * masak doesn't know enough about tied()
09:55 jnthn morning, all
09:56 jnthn Yes, VAR sounds like the thing.
09:56 masak jnthn! \o/
09:56 jnthn Though it's identity on non-scalars.
09:56 jnthn masak! \o/
09:57 * sorear out
09:57 * moritz_ spectests tylercurtis++'s memory leak fix
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10:07 bythos hello
10:07 moritz_ hi
10:07 bythos :D
10:08 bythos so silly question but does anyone have any idea if perl6 will ever get to production quality?
10:08 tadzik sure it will
10:08 tadzik even before christmas
10:09 bythos crazy talk
10:09 bythos been waiting 10years
10:09 bythos :D
10:09 moritz_ don't wait, help
10:09 bythos maybe
10:09 moritz_ there's plenty of stuff to do
10:09 tadzik first to criticise are the last to contribute. No offence
10:10 bbkr how bare arrays behave in regexps now? like literal match?
10:10 bythos lol
10:10 bythos its all very light
10:10 moritz_ write modules, documentation, blogs, compiler....
10:10 moritz_ bbkr: @a is supposed to interpolate just like @a[0] | @a[1] | ...
10:10 masak bythos: you could do like some of us. we waited 5 years, and then we did other stuff... we helped bring it along. :)
10:10 tadzik play the Perl 6 mmorpg
10:11 moritz_ bbkr: so the interpolation rules for scalars apply to each item individually
10:11 tadzik http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39445
10:11 bbkr moritz_: but it should interpolate in range only? like /<@a>/ or bare too like /@a/? there is some inconsistency with STD
10:12 bythos i have to get something off my back
10:12 bythos i'm very angry
10:12 masak hugme: hug bythos
10:12 * hugme hugs bythos
10:12 tadzik I knew it will happen :)
10:12 bythos i'm been force to programme in php
10:12 tadzik hugme: hug bythos
10:12 * hugme hugs bythos
10:13 bbkr std: "" ~~ /@t/ # looks like literal match
10:13 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = <foo bar>; say 'a gymnast walks to the bar' ~~ / @a /
10:13 p6eval std 32103: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
10:13 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«␤»
10:13 bbkr rakudo: "" ~~ /@t/ # looks like it wants @t array to be defined
10:13 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '@t' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/CDKnmoDGGl:22)␤»
10:13 bbkr moritz_: see?
10:13 moritz_ bbkr: reading S05, I'm pretty sure that STD is wrong here
10:14 moritz_ bbkr: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html​#Variable_%28non-%29interpolation search for @cmds
10:14 bythos i use to programme in perl5 before only started looking at it again after the advent of JSON
10:14 moritz_ though it's a bit inconsistent that arrays should interpolate in double-quoted strings only if followed by a postcircumfix, but always in regexes
10:15 bbkr moritz_: that proves it's not me being sleepy, but there is bug indeed in STD :) show should I report to? RT?
10:15 bbkr s/show/who/
10:15 moritz_ phenny: tell TimToady std: '' ~~ /@t/ # should complain about @t not being declared. Found by bbkr++
10:15 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
10:15 moritz_ bbkr: like this :-)
10:15 bythos it sure takes time to build rakudo
10:16 moritz_ yes; performance is one the areas that will be worked on in the next months
10:16 bythos ok
10:17 bythos got a very old 600mhz working on it at the moment
10:17 tadzik oh
10:18 moritz_ for rakudo the more interesting question is how much RAM you have available
10:18 moritz_ if you have about 1G free, it builds much quicker
10:18 bythos not much on that machine about 192
10:19 bythos lolz
10:19 bythos oh it serve as svn server
10:20 bythos os is freebsd
10:21 bythos yeah its using most of the swap
10:21 dalek rakudo: 3a339ee | ++ | src/pmc/objectref_pmc.template:
10:21 dalek rakudo: Switch objectref_pmc.template to auto_attrs.
10:21 dalek rakudo:
10:21 dalek rakudo: Fixes a nasty memory leak that would leak at least 3 scalars per block.
10:21 dalek rakudo: Now a simple 'while 1 { }' loop seems not to leak anymore.
10:21 dalek rakudo:
10:21 dalek rakudo: Signed-off-by: Moritz Lenz <moritz@faui2k3.org>
10:21 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​a339ee8ab3a72867fe914ec9c689e1f5a890645
10:22 tadzik tylercurtis++
10:22 masak tylercurtis++
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10:24 jnthn tylercurtis++, and [Coke]++ for hunting it down too :-)
10:24 masak I've just confirmed my enums patch segfault against Rakudo #29 Erlangen. trying #26 Amsterdam now.
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10:30 masak hm. will be tougher with pre-#26 releases, since named enums seem to have been introduced by that release.
10:30 tadzik left #perl6
10:30 masak but verifying the segfault in #26 already means that at least four Parrot releases are affected.
10:31 masak <whiteknight> masak: If rakudo would play nice, and follow supported releases instead of attempting to track svn HEAD, there would be fewer segfaults
10:31 masak just sayin'
10:31 jnthn I think you just found an uncitation. ;-)
10:32 masak I think what he really meant was "thank you for tracking down this segfault which we haven't been able to discover ourselves for a very long time"
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10:33 * masak tries to patch named enums, then his nice-enums patch, into Rakudo #26
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10:36 mtrg I don't see why we need perl6. If all efforts were directed to Perl5 it could have been better IMO
10:37 masak mtrg: oh, your right!
10:37 masak thanks, we'll stop working on it now.
10:37 * masak decides to spend all his time on Perl 5 work from now on
10:37 masak s/your/you're/ # I must not have had my coffee today
10:37 bythos lol
10:37 mtrg perl6 is slow, and it's syntax is getting closer to C IMO
10:38 masak mtrg: you're absolutely right. It's very close to C.
10:38 bythos really?
10:38 osfameron you must program a very strange dialect of C ;-)
10:38 mtrg it's a brainfart as far as I understand
10:38 masak mtrg: yes. it's horrible.
10:38 masak mtrg: none of us like it, really.
10:38 masak mtrg: it stinks.
10:38 masak mtrg: in fact, I don't know why I've spent all this time working on it...
10:38 TiMBuS i hate perl 6 pretty bad, myself
10:38 masak we all hate Perl 6 in here.
10:38 osfameron I hear COBOL is the way forward!
10:39 masak FORTRAN is gaining mindshare again.
10:39 bythos so you can do stuff like this in perl6
10:39 bythos class A{
10:39 bythos sub doSomething{
10:39 bythos }
10:39 mtrg any hope to have Perl6 faster than Perl5
10:39 bythos }
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10:39 mtrg so far it's deadly slow
10:39 masak bythos: try to prefer nopaste for more than two lines, kthx
10:40 masak bythos: yes, but a sub is different from a method.
10:40 masak mtrg: no, it'll never be faster. we just stopped working on it, remember?
10:40 masak mtrg: you adequately told us that it was useless.
10:40 masak so we just gave up.
10:40 Su-Shee masak: so, what are you still doing here? ;)
10:41 gfldex poking ppl in the eye ofc :)
10:41 masak Su-Shee: I'm discouraging people from working any more on Perl 6 :P
10:41 Su-Shee good!
10:41 bythos so mtrg was perl4 slower than perl5?
10:41 TiMBuS if only we just rewrote perl 5 but with perl 6 features...
10:41 mtrg bythos: no idea
10:41 masak mtrg: obviously you have gained great insight into this whole Perl 6 process, and should tell us all about it.
10:42 arthur-_ joined #perl6
10:42 bythos well maybe you should go find out
10:42 mtrg i read somewhere that it's regexp is too diff.
10:42 mtrg than p5
10:42 masak mtrg: yeah, they're too different. hence they're bad.
10:42 masak because Perl 5 regexes were perfect, really.
10:43 arthur-_ left #perl6
10:43 Su-Shee masak: also, - face it - you don't have mst's hair.
10:43 masak I should stop thinking about Perl 6 regexes. they were a distraction to my real purpose in life: writing Perl 5 regexes.
10:43 bbkr what does this signature mean: "multi method new(::T $min, ...)" ? what is "::T" for here?
10:43 jnthn bbkr: Type capture
10:44 jnthn bbkr: T will after this point be a type variable that holds the type of whatever was passed as $min
10:44 masak Su-Shee: you're right. which is why I'm subtly sarcastic instead of ALL-CAPS F***ING PROFANE!
10:44 bythos kind of like but not at all like templates in c++
10:44 bythos ?
10:44 gfldex yes
10:44 TiMBuS ok so locally: my $a = {3-$^a}..{5+$^b}; $a(3, -2) # now prints 0 1 2 3
10:44 masak bythos: aye.
10:45 bbkr jnthn: thanks, looks useful  :)
10:45 TiMBuS is this what is meant to happen
10:45 masak TiMBuS: you can't have $^a and $^b sperad over two different closures.
10:45 masak TiMBuS: that's... insane. :)
10:46 gfldex TiMBuS: remember perl 6 only looks like magic :)
10:46 TiMBuS but but.. they had to curry D:
10:47 masak TiMBuS: you probably want *
10:47 mathw wouldn't they be completely different sets of hypotheticals
10:47 masak mathw: they're placeholders, not hypotheticals.
10:47 TiMBuS i cant test for whatevercode in core for some reason
10:47 mathw oh
10:47 mathw what are hypotheticals then
10:47 mathw are there even such a thing
10:47 TiMBuS so i just tested for Code
10:47 bbkr rakudo: sub foo (::T $x, T $y) {  }; foo(1, "a") # wow, it can be propagated to other params as well :)
10:47 masak mathw: hypotheticals are declared with 'let'. no implementation does them.
10:48 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter '$y'␤  in 'foo' at line 22:/tmp/M3iQ2oGGLT␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/M3iQ2oGGLT␤»
10:48 mathw masak: okay.
10:48 masak mathw: Yapsi will be first implementing them. :P
10:48 * mathw decides to figure out how to do them in Rakudo first
10:48 mathw :P
10:48 jnthn Go mathw! ;-)
10:48 masak good luck.
10:48 mathw dammit
10:48 masak really.
10:48 mathw trust jnthn to notice that
10:48 TiMBuS masak, so is the range 'Code..Code' not allowed?
10:48 masak TiMBuS: allowed, yes. meaningful? I don't know.
10:49 mathw jnthn: I'm off work next week, after I get back from holiday I may try something (need to do my CLA too), but I'm intending to focus primarily on music
10:49 TiMBuS well, i implemented it then
10:49 * mathw -> lunch &
10:51 TiMBuS i just figured since .[1..*-1] is essentially 'Int..Code', a crazy person will find use for 'Code..Code', so I added it.
10:52 masak hm, true.
10:53 TiMBuS checks for arity too!
10:53 masak but these code ranges are only every eval'ed inside slices.
10:53 masak TiMBuS: *-2 .. *-1 is very conceivable.
10:53 bbkr rakudo: sub foo (::666 $y) { }; foo("a") # curious how it will parse
10:53 p6eval rakudo 82c9e9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!␤»
10:53 bbkr hmm
10:53 TiMBuS my $a = {$^a+$^b}..{$^c}; $a(1,2,5); #Gives 3 4 5
10:55 TiMBuS well, i guess ill submit it as the patch to .[1..*-1] and see what happens. also i have no idea how [*-2 .. *-1] would work. postcircumfrence[] needs to check arity and duplicate .length as needed
10:55 TiMBuS err. .elems
10:55 jnthn postcircumfix ;-)
10:55 TiMBuS im um. slightly drunk
10:55 jnthn \o/
10:56 jnthn That's a great time to work on Rakudo patches. ;-)
10:56 x3nU is loop faster than for?
10:57 masak x3nU: yes, currently.
10:57 bythos 1gb of ram free for building rakudo?
10:57 masak x3nU: because for creates an iterator, which is slowish.
10:57 masak bythos: sounds about right. more is better.
10:57 bythos vm so that will have too
10:58 masak sorry, couldn't parse that.
10:58 bythos do
10:59 bythos running a virtual machine so i can build it for freebsd
10:59 bythos build it on
10:59 masak I see.
11:00 bythos it abit of a trouble if you company is running VM and you have limited ram resources
11:03 x3nU is there smarter way to convert number from dec to bin
11:03 x3nU t
11:03 x3nU than sprintf* ?
11:06 TiMBuS jnthn, was wondering if you could solve this conundrum: An array slice bigger than said array's boundaries will pad out any unused indexes with Any, so that slice assignment works (ex. @a[0..2] = (1,2,3) ). (more)
11:07 TiMBuS However @array = <a b c>; @array[0..5] is supposed to only return <a b c> (according to moritz_)
11:08 * jnthn thought Rakudo already got that one right...
11:08 jnthn rakudo: my @a; say @a[0..2]; say @a.elems;
11:08 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«Any()Any()Any()␤0␤»
11:08 jnthn Yes, it's there somewhere :-)
11:08 zag bythos: For install rakudo simply type:   pkg_add -r rakudo , without compile
11:08 jnthn TiMBuS: I think it's to do with WHENCE
11:09 jnthn TiMBuS: That is, we return something that, if assigned to, will actually create the elements in the array.
11:09 jnthn So it's kinda lazy.
11:10 TiMBuS ah, thats different to how I thought it was meant to work
11:12 TiMBuS well that sucks (trying to implement .[1..*] here, if arrays clipped to their boundaries when sliced then it wouldn't be a problem)
11:27 smash_ joined #perl6
11:27 smash_ hello everyone
11:32 bythos hi
11:40 masak smash_! \o/
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11:46 azawawi std: my $x = Mu; $x.say;
11:46 p6eval std 32103: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
11:46 azawawi rakudo: my $x = Mu; $x.say;
11:46 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
11:47 masak rakudo: role R { method bar { say "bar" } }; my $foo = class { method foo { say "foo" } }; $foo does R; $foo.foo; $foo.bar
11:47 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«Attempt to use rebless_subclass where the new class was not a subclass␤  in 'infix:<does>' at line 6760:CORE.setting␤  in 'infix:<does>' at line 530:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/R0XxpGl7EU␤»
11:47 * masak submits rakudobug
11:47 * masak feels like King Midas sometimes :)
11:47 masak everything I touch becomes a bug report.
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11:50 * Su-Shee recommends rereading some greek stories. ;)
11:50 kiffin joined #perl6
11:50 takadonet morning all
11:50 masak takadonet: \o
11:52 masak rakudo: my $foo = class { method foo { say "foo" } }; $foo does role { method bar { say "bar" } }; $foo.foo; $foo.bar
11:52 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«Attempt to use rebless_subclass where the new class was not a subclass␤  in 'infix:<does>' at line 6760:CORE.setting␤  in 'infix:<does>' at line 530:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/CywfZT9UpD␤»
11:53 masak rakudo: class { method foo { say "foo" } } does role { method bar { say "bar" } }; $foo.foo; $foo.bar
11:53 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$foo' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/EwvFATwVwf:22)␤»
11:53 masak rakudo: class { method foo { say "foo" } } does role { method bar { say "bar" } }
11:53 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«Attempt to use rebless_subclass where the new class was not a subclass␤  in 'infix:<does>' at line 6760:CORE.setting␤  in 'infix:<does>' at line 530:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/dnfsA8eOTN␤»
11:53 masak rakudo: class {} does role {}
11:53 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«Attempt to use rebless_subclass where the new class was not a subclass␤  in 'infix:<does>' at line 6760:CORE.setting␤  in 'infix:<does>' at line 530:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/zNMX2gkFBG␤»
11:55 moritz_ a worthy golf, sir masak
11:55 masak thanks.
11:55 masak a subpar amount of strokes, though :)
11:56 masak but I attribute that to being a bit shell-shocked by studying. :)
11:57 mberends joined #perl6
11:57 masak lithos++ # noticing dupes and connections in RT tickets
11:57 masak mberends! \o/
11:58 moritz_ btw now that a major memory leak is gone, I'm trying to run the Math::Model simulations that I've shown at YAPC, this time all in one prcoess
11:59 moritz_ so far I did it by spawning a new process for each iteration in the parameter sweep
12:01 mberends hi masak, moritz_ # I didn't even notice my laptop reconnecting after a sleep
12:02 moritz_ o/
12:03 moritz_ seems like the memory footprint of a small rakudo program is 174MB on a 64bit machine
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12:13 mberends my REPL uses 168MB (64 bit) or 84MB (32 bit), slightly different revisions but almost the same. An amazing difference.
12:14 masak wow!
12:17 x3nU yeah, rakudo is using 1100 MB of memory and still growing
12:17 x3nU ;d
12:18 masak x3nU: maybe you should try the latest from Rakudo master, then.
12:18 moritz_ good thing is, my simulation has now been running for >20 minutes, and it's still using less than 200M virtual memory
12:18 x3nU masak: i would prefer rakudo star more
12:19 x3nU ;/
12:19 masak x3nU: you're in luck! there's a release coming out in... how long again? hours?
12:19 x3nU so i will wait :)
12:20 mathw moritz_: good, not leaky :)
12:20 moritz_ mathw: or if it leaks at a much smaller rate than before
12:21 moritz_ reach 200M virtual mem now, after 26min run time
12:21 mathw yeah
12:21 mathw it's better than we've had...
12:22 moritz_ yes; it used to leak about 1MB per second
12:22 moritz_ now about 0.5M per minute
12:22 masak not leaking is very good news.
12:22 masak er, not leaking *as much*, then. :)
12:22 moritz_ (a news that sadly won't make it into R*+1)
12:22 masak oh, right.
12:22 masak x3nU: sorry, you'll have to wait a month, then.
12:23 masak x3nU: or try bleeding Rakudo.
12:23 x3nU why? :(
12:24 moritz_ hugme: tweet rakudoperl #rakudo now comes with drastically reduced memory leaks; long running processes are possible again #perl6
12:24 * hugme hugs moritz_; tweet delivered
12:25 masak x3nU: because the fix went in very recently, and R*+1 will build off of the last Rakudo compiler release.
12:25 mathw which was made on Thursday
12:25 x3nU geez
12:25 jnthn pmichaud++ could always decide that he wants to memory fix in the R*+1
12:25 mathw we're still doing better than my work
12:25 moritz_ you can think of it this way: rakudo development is so fast, that even 5 days after a compiler release it's already worth switching to a new version :-)
12:26 mathw one major cool thing I did has been waiting for a release for nearly a year now
12:26 x3nU i can't download new rakudo because perl taked nearly all of my mememory :D
12:26 x3nU memory*
12:26 gfldex i never do 'git pull' when i cant hold onto something
12:26 gfldex that's how fast rakudo races onwards :)
12:27 sunnavy_ left #perl6
12:27 x3nU there's no nightly builds for rakudO?
12:27 x3nU rakudo*
12:27 x3nU of* ;f
12:28 masak no. maybe there should be.
12:28 sunnavy joined #perl6
12:28 masak I could see Emmentaler handling that, too.
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12:29 timbunce_ is now known as timbunce
12:30 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
12:30 phenny pmichaud: 09:35Z <moritz_> tell pmichaud I've tried to read the code for the operator precedence parser; to me it looks like it would be much cleaner (and more extensible) to store things like %!ohash in actual attributes, and require instantiation for the grammar before parsing; is there a good reason against doing it that way?
12:30 masak morning, pm
12:31 masak moritz_: is hugme source online somewhere?
12:31 moritz_ masak: sure
12:31 masak nvm, found it. http://github.com/moritz/hugme
12:31 moritz_ hugme: show hugme
12:31 hugme moritz_: the following people have power over 'hugme': P⁣erlJam, T⁣imToady, [⁣particle], c⁣olomon, j⁣nthn, m⁣asak, m⁣berends, m⁣oritz_, p⁣michaud. URL: http://github.com/moritz/hugme/
12:32 pmichaud moritz_: (%!ohash)  I think it works out better as an "our" attribute.
12:32 moritz_ pmichaud: why? and how would you build two precedence parsers in the same program?
12:33 pmichaud oh, that's a good point.  I'm mis-thinking of "our" attributes.
12:34 pmichaud requiring instantiation of a grammar before parsing seems kind of weird, though.
12:34 pmichaud and it gets a bit expensive to initialize that hash on every instance.
12:34 moritz_ if it keeps state, why not force it to instantiate?
12:34 pmichaud ...does it keep state?
12:35 moritz_ for example through .O
12:35 moritz_ not all grammars do
12:35 pmichaud that's always done at INIT time, though.
12:35 moritz_ but the OPP does
12:35 pmichaud (or CHECK)
12:35 pmichaud %!ohash is never modified, once initialized.
12:36 moritz_ and I don't see how it would be very expensive, if one parse (mostly) uses only one instance
12:37 bbkr rakudo: %()
12:37 p6eval rakudo 3a339e:  ( no output )
12:37 bbkr \o/
12:37 moritz_ rakudo: %(); say "alive"
12:37 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«alive␤»
12:38 zulon left #perl6
12:38 pmichaud src/Perl6/Grammar.pm lines 1510-1536 initialize %!ohash.  You want to do that on every instance?
12:39 sunnavy left #perl6
12:39 pmichaud I agree that we at least need to have a per-grammar %!ohash
12:39 pmichaud i.e., it can't be global for all grammars
12:39 frooh left #perl6
12:39 moritz_ per-grammar would be a big improvement
12:39 pmichaud I'm not sure that I want it to be *every grammar instance*
12:39 pmichaud remember that Grammar is Cursor
12:40 pmichaud and we create new Cursors on every subrule.
12:40 moritz_ hm, right
12:40 frooh joined #perl6
12:42 pmichaud so it's not "one grammar per parse"... it's really "one grammar per subrule"
12:42 pmichaud STD handles it lexically, so perhaps we'll have to do something like that.
12:44 pmichaud in nqp it's nicely abstracted behind .O(...), so we can fix it there.  Essentially, we want to store a property or attribute on the grammar's type object, and have all instance share that.
12:44 pmichaud *instances
12:45 moritz_ and have some attributes that override it, in case of a lexical grammar modification?
12:45 frooh left #perl6
12:45 pmichaud yeah, maybe.  Maybe lexical is in fact the way to go, now that lexicals are far enough along to be somewhat workable.
12:45 sunnavy joined #perl6
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12:46 pmichaud anyway, is this a blocker at the moment?
12:46 pmichaud (it's a small blocker for me, now that you've pointed it out :)
12:46 moritz_ no; just a curious question while reading the code
12:47 pmichaud I'm glad you noticed it -- it explains a couple of difficulties I was having.
12:47 moritz_ it was the "don't we have OO to do that better?" kind of question :)
12:48 mathw OO in 'doing things better' shock
12:48 masak there's no "OO" in "doing things better".
12:48 masak 'Perl 6: putting the "OO" back in "doing things better".'
12:48 moritz_ dOOing things better
12:49 masak ...but spelling them worse? :P
12:49 moritz_ aye :-)
12:50 frooh left #perl6
12:52 pmichaud Rakudo is being included in Fedora 14.  :-)
12:52 pmichaud It got its own bullet point in the release announcement.
12:52 takadonet !!
12:52 pmichaud http://lwn.net/Articles/401735/
12:52 moritz_ I think gerd++ deserves karma for that
12:52 frooh joined #perl6
12:52 mathw that's scary
12:52 mathw very scary
12:53 moritz_ which reminds me, he sent me a patch for the blizkost build system
12:53 pmichaud it also got highlighted in http://java.dzone.com/dose/dzone-daily-dose-825
12:53 pmichaud "The first pre-release of Fedora 14 arrived a week earlier than expected.  Some of the major changes in Fedor 14 will include a switch to systemd, a sysvinit and upstart alternative, and the inclusion of the Rakudo Star distro of Perl 6."
12:54 mathw well on the bright side
12:54 mathw systemd will get all the flak
12:54 pmichaud lol
12:54 masak :)
12:54 mathw (there is moaning that it can't possibly be safe to move to it that quickly)
12:54 mathw I think F14 looks awesome
12:54 mathw they're shipping D as well
12:55 mathw Think I'll stick Fedora as my primary OS for a while yet
12:56 mathw but you can bet we're going to get more people around complaining that R* is too slow
12:57 moritz_ that's OK
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13:00 masak Holy_Cow: \o
13:01 masonkramer joined #perl6
13:01 Holy_Cow o/
13:03 echosystm joined #perl6
13:03 echosystm hi guys
13:03 masak echosystm: hi!
13:03 echosystm will perl 6 support static variables and methods properly?
13:04 echosystm also, what about full public/private/protected ?
13:04 masak echosystm: as in "on the class"?
13:04 echosystm yep
13:04 masak echosystm: not as such, no. I have a blog post about it, hold on.
13:04 echosystm ok thanks :)
13:04 masak (this is still about the first question, btw)
13:04 masak hold on :)
13:04 moritz_ all methods that don't use object attributes can be used as static methods
13:04 moritz_ and static attributes are specced
13:05 echosystm i know many perl folk consider static things to be a corruption of a pure object model
13:05 echosystm but they are ridiculously useful
13:05 masak echosystm: tell me a few of their uses.
13:05 moritz_ perl traditionally gives you all the power, including enough to shoot yourself in the foot, if you want
13:05 colomon I thought all you had to do was say "my $var;" in a class declaration?
13:05 pmichaud or "our $var"
13:06 moritz_ colomon: that's lexically scoped, not class scoped
13:06 moritz_ colomon: which differs if you augment
13:06 masak colomon: but that's not inherited by subclasses.
13:06 colomon ah.
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13:06 echosystm basically, if you want true static things, youre best off using some moosex:: madness
13:06 moritz_ echosystm: private and public attributes are supported
13:06 moritz_ no protected
13:06 echosystm but i dont do that
13:07 moritz_ protected doesn't really make sense - why should something be only part of an API if you inherit from a class?
13:07 moritz_ *only be part
13:08 smash_ moritz_: can i quote you on that ? "perl traditionally gives you all the power, ..." :)
13:08 masak echosystm: here you go: http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40321
13:08 echosystm (arguably) better polymorphism or encapsulation or some other term moritz_
13:08 moritz_ smash_: if iyou feel like
13:08 orafu left #perl6
13:08 moritz_ echosystm: care to explain your "better polymorphism or encapsulation" answers my question?
13:09 echosystm personally i like to have public/private/protected rather than pseudo-hiding things with underscores
13:09 orafu joined #perl6
13:09 moritz_ *how your...
13:09 * moritz_ reall can't type today
13:09 echosystm well some things you just dont want to be accessible
13:09 moritz_ then make them private
13:09 echosystm i think it is important to simplify the interfaces
13:09 echosystm moritz_, if they are private you cant subclass them
13:10 echosystm thats the whole point of protected - subclassable private attributes
13:10 TiMBuS if i need to lie about the arity of a generated code block will I be able to just set it using PIR and will nothing break?
13:10 TiMBuS (better yet) is there a way to generate a code block with a dynamic amount of parameters
13:10 moritz_ echosystm: why should subclassing provide you access to private data?
13:10 echosystm because subclasses need to be able to see the attributes of their super class...
13:10 echosystm lol
13:10 moritz_ why not just provide an API which the subclasses can use+
13:10 moritz_ s/\+/?/
13:11 moritz_ just like any other class really
13:11 echosystm because some data should be hidden from the outside world
13:11 moritz_ I don't see why inheriting classes need a different API than using classes
13:11 moritz_ echosystm: but subclasses are also "outside world", in the sense that they are written by somebody else
13:12 masak echosystm: in Perl 6, you can't hide data from the outside world. not even private things.
13:12 echosystm ok
13:12 masak or at least it's very difficult.
13:12 echosystm hrm, bummer
13:12 moritz_ well, private attribute exist
13:12 moritz_ and are pretty easy to use
13:12 moritz_ it's just that they aren't fully private
13:12 moritz_ you can use introspection to get their values
13:12 moritz_ (but I guess you can do that in Java too...)
13:13 masak yes, you can.
13:13 moritz_ so, java has no privacy either?
13:13 masak only the compiler enforces privateness in Java. the runtime doesn't.
13:14 masak some Java libraries leverage that.
13:14 TiMBuS my $m = method { return $!super_secret_variable }; my $stolen = $secretclass.$m;
13:14 masak TiMBuS: that won't work, though.
13:14 moritz_ TiMBuS: that works now, but contradicts the spec
13:14 masak TiMBuS: unless the anon method is defined within the scope of the original class.
13:15 moritz_ the resultion of attribute names should really be tied lexically to the class it's in
13:15 masak or, I guess, within an augmenting scope of the class. which counts as monkeying with the class.
13:15 TiMBuS aw but i like how it works. i feel like a nerd james bond :(
13:16 moritz_ you can also parse the return value of .perl :-)
13:16 bbkr is "multi (Int)" valid syntax to define anonymous multi sub, or do I need {}
13:16 am0c left #perl6
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13:17 moritz_ you need { }
13:17 bbkr moritz_: thanks
13:17 masak for all routine types, you need { }
13:18 TiMBuS uh, but does anyone know the answer to my previous question? its bugging me
13:18 masak only package things can use just the ;
13:18 bbkr std: multi (Int) # curious...
13:18 p6eval std 32103: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 117m␤»
13:19 ejs left #perl6
13:19 masak TiMBuS: -> *@_ { say @_.elems, " parameters were passed in" }
13:19 moritz_ bbkr: why don't you wrap instead of lying?
13:19 TiMBuS masak, but i need .arity to be set
13:19 masak TiMBuS: sounds less-than-clean, whatever it is you're doing.
13:20 TiMBuS yeah well its in the perl 6 core :p
13:20 masak TiMBuS: maybe &routine does role { method arity { 42 } }; ?
13:20 masak but I'd really recommend taking a step back at this point, and re-thinking the whole thing :)
13:22 masonkramer left #perl6
13:22 moritz_ -> $a, $b { foo($a, $b, 3) } # look, it's arity 2
13:23 masak ah. another trampoline :)
13:24 moritz_ a lying trampoline :-)
13:24 jnthn bouncy bouncy
13:24 jnthn </dirtyhungarianphrasebook>
13:25 huf yandelavasa gradenwi stravenka?
13:25 TiMBuS so I'm just not sure if lying about .arity will break things
13:25 mikehh joined #perl6
13:29 masak TiMBuS: here's an idea: you could try changing it, and then run the spectests.
13:29 * masak tries to find his sarcasm knob
13:29 masak where did I put it?
13:29 huf on the end of your staff?
13:30 timbunce left #perl6
13:30 masak huf: you *are* using the Hungarian phrasebook, aren't you? :)
13:31 huf well, i *am* hungarian ;)
13:31 masonkramer joined #perl6
13:31 masak then why do you need a phrasebook? :P
13:31 huf this is how we always talk
13:32 jnthn masak: To know how to talk about hovercraft in English.
13:32 huf we are the pornocracy of absurdistan ;)
13:32 * masak looks for the sarcasm knob in his hovercraft
13:32 jnthn masak: The sarcasm knob seems to be stuck on max today. :P
13:32 masak jnthn: really? :P
13:32 masak you think so?
13:32 masak what was your first clue?
13:33 jnthn Turn it down turn it down!
13:33 masak oh, *that's* a good idea. didn't think of that...
13:34 masak jnthn: you're so useful to have around.
13:34 Holy_Cow *turns it to 11*
13:34 [Coke] (daily builds) that's more useful with binaries, neh?
13:34 jnthn Well what else are you going to build?
13:34 masak trinaries.
13:34 jnthn Oh, wait, we're allowed to be non-sarcastic in here too...
13:34 jnthn :-)
13:35 sftp joined #perl6
13:36 masak sftp: you're the only safe option! no-one should use ftp any more!
13:37 tadzik joined #perl6
13:37 tadzik oh hai
13:37 masak o/ tadzik
13:37 * [Coke] yawns.
13:38 risou joined #perl6
13:40 sftp masak: agreed :^)
13:40 * moritz_ kinda links rsync and unison
13:40 masak sftp: I also only use scp nowadays, never cp.
13:40 masak oh wait.
13:40 moritz_ scp on the local machine?
13:41 masak it works.
13:41 masak and it's very secure. :)
13:41 am0c joined #perl6
13:43 sftp masak: yes... scp is my friend
13:45 echosystm left #perl6
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13:52 x3nU well, i'm testing my simple perl 6 script
13:52 x3nU with rakudo star 2010.07
13:52 x3nU to know how much ram it will take
13:53 x3nU (i'm testing on dedicated server :D)
13:53 mikehh_ joined #perl6
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13:54 mikehh_ is now known as mikehh
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13:58 TiMBuS x3nU, is it just helloworld.pl or is it doing a lot of stuff?
13:59 moritz_ fwiw, my simulation program ran successfully for 2 hours without exhausting its resource limit of 1GB
14:00 x3nU http://gist.github.com/549562
14:00 x3nU probably it could be written better
14:00 x3nU but i don't think that it should eat that much ram
14:00 TiMBuS yeah ive noticed perl6 isnt very leaky, just bloaty
14:00 TiMBuS rakudo*
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14:00 moritz_ well, rakudo was very leaky until few hours ago
14:01 x3nU after 46000 iterations 2GB of ram taken
14:01 TiMBuS when my IRC bot ran on alpha it used about half the ram it does now
14:01 TiMBuS moritz_, oh?
14:02 moritz_ TiMBuS: see commit 3a339ee8ab3a72867fe914ec9c689e1f5a890645
14:04 moritz_ x3nU: with latest rakudo, RAM usage stays constant at 174M on 64bit
14:04 alester joined #perl6
14:04 moritz_ at least no change during the first 6k iterations
14:05 TiMBuS oh i see moritz_
14:06 TiMBuS i didnt even know there was a 'manual_attrs' option hah
14:06 x3nU anyway
14:07 x3nU i don't know how to build rakudo for win32
14:08 jnthn OK, time for me to leave
14:08 jnthn See you all in a week and a half. :-)
14:08 x3nU bye
14:09 moritz_ have fun!
14:09 x3nU is it possible to build rakudo under windows without cygwin or msys or uwin?
14:09 PerlJam x3nU: sure!  Just install linux first  ;-)
14:09 [Coke] PerlJam--
14:10 moritz_ "it's time toooo asy gooooodbye" /me sings in his best Sarah Brightman voice
14:10 [Coke] x3nU: I /think/ it should work out of the box with strawberry perl.
14:10 x3nU i tried configure with latest strawberry perl
14:10 moritz_ x3nU: yes, jnthn uses msvc for compiling parrot and rakudo
14:10 x3nU and i get
14:11 x3nU http://gist.github.com/549578
14:11 x3nU (that means something like command not found )
14:11 TiMBuS my @a = <1 2 3 4 5>; say ~@a[*-2..*-1] #Prints 4 5. yay i did thing
14:11 moritz_ x3nU: did you install parrot first?
14:11 moritz_ x3nU: if not, you need the --gen-parrot option
14:11 zulon left #perl6
14:12 moritz_ x3nU: please read the README
14:12 x3nU ;f
14:12 x3nU lol, normally under linux it warned me about lack of parrot that's why i forogot
14:12 x3nU forgot*
14:13 zag left #perl6
14:13 x3nU sorry for my stupidity ;d
14:13 moritz_ no problem
14:16 x3nU also
14:16 x3nU 105000 iterations
14:16 x3nU 3,5GB ram taken
14:16 x3nU ;d
14:21 moritz_ 75k iterations, 174MB RAM taken
14:21 moritz_ x3nU: you should upgrade to a newer rakudo :-)
14:21 x3nU i'm building it on my pc :)
14:23 risou left #perl6
14:24 risou joined #perl6
14:24 x3nU 4,1 GB now :D
14:27 plobsing joined #perl6
14:29 moritz_ pmichaud: is the improvement since R* worth a new release? or should we wait another month?
14:30 pmichaud moritz_: well, last month's release announcement said we planned a release for August 24.
14:30 pmichaud I was debating that very question myself, this morning.
14:30 pmichaud (and last night)
14:31 moritz_ then there probably should be a release, and a less precise next date in the announcement
14:32 pmichaud well, I do like the notion of planned/regular releases, though.
14:32 pmichaud I'd rather not get into the habit of "we release when we think we have something good enough to release"
14:32 pmichaud and we've always said "we release even if there nothing significant to release", so we should likely honor that.
14:33 moritz_ ok
14:33 pmichaud There are some improvements.  One guy even added more regex modifiers.  :-)
14:34 x3nU ok, finished building
14:35 x3nU now i'm running my script on latest rakudo from repo ;d
14:37 masak I think releases are almost always a good thing.
14:37 PerlJam x3nU: I've been running it for a while now.  On my box it uses a steady 183m RAM.  (so far)
14:37 moritz_ so, when will be the next R* release?
14:37 pmichaud in a few hours
14:37 pmichaud after that, September 28.
14:37 moritz_ I meant the one af... right
14:38 pmichaud I'm generally going with "Tuesday following Rakudo release"
14:38 x3nU on my pc after 11k iterations around 50 MB
14:38 moritz_ x3nU: then you have a 32bit system
14:38 x3nU yes
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14:55 tadzik I removed Config::INI from Star, as it doesn't work the latest Rakudo and I have no time to fix it
14:55 bythos i do not think that i a developer relate to Camelia.
14:56 bythos the spokesbug
14:56 moritz_ that's OK
14:56 tylercurtis joined #perl6
14:57 moritz_ you don't have to hug her to use Perl 6 :-)
14:57 TiMBuS i dont relate to camels and onions make me cry. i still use perl tho
14:57 bythos i feel like i'm in preschool
14:57 pmichaud tadzik++ # thanks for removing it for now
14:57 bythos it make me think of preschool
14:57 TimToady preschoolers are very creative, compared to adults
14:57 phenny TimToady: 10:15Z <moritz_> tell TimToady std: '' ~~ /@t/ # should complain about @t not being declared. Found by bbkr++
14:58 TiMBuS perhaps you could embrace it ironically, like how i do with dubstep music and pro wrestling
14:59 bythos $rant->end;
14:59 moritz_ $rant.end if you like Perl 6 :-)
14:59 TimToady std: sub pascal { [1], -> @p { [0, @p Z+ @p, 0] } ... * }; say pascal[^10].perl
14:59 p6eval std 32103: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 122m␤»
14:59 TimToady rakudo: sub pascal { [1], -> @p { [0, @p Z+ @p, 0] } ... * }; say pascal[^10].perl
15:00 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«([1], [1, 1], [1, 2, 1], [1, 3, 3, 1], [1, 4, 6, 4, 1], [1, 5, 10, 10, 5, 1], [1, 6, 15, 20, 15, 6, 1], [1, 7, 21, 35, 35, 21, 7, 1], [1, 8, 28, 56, 70, 56, 28, 8, 1], [1, 9, 36, 84, 126, 126, 84, 36, 9, 1])␤»
15:00 moritz_ bythos: http://kraih.com/usingperl6-sri.jpg this is likely going to be the cover of our new book... maybe you like that better than the "vanilla" camelia
15:00 moritz_ TimToady++ # very nice
15:00 bythos lolz
15:01 bythos vanilla camelia love it
15:01 pmichaud someone please blog that cool pascal function kthxbye :-)
15:01 moritz_ TimToady should :-)
15:01 tadzik pmichaud: I think it would be nice to make a smoketest before shipping Star, so we make sure we don't ship anything broken. Similar to this: http://tjs.azalayah.net/ser.html
15:01 TimToady I "blogged" it on rosettacode.  :)
15:01 zulon joined #perl6
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15:02 tadzik I can do this, but my Thinkpad is on warranty now and my PC is quite slow, so it might take some time
15:02 pmichaud tadzik: (1) what did you use to produce that
15:02 pmichaud (2) why isn't it already in the star repo?
15:02 pmichaud (3) we can likely do that for next release :)
15:03 bythos moritz its better
15:03 tadzik pmichaud: it's in neutro's repo
15:03 bythos make me think of the dragonflybsd
15:03 tadzik pmichaud: http://github.com/tadzik/neutro
15:03 tadzik pmichaud: that's the smoker.pl and some ugly html generation I don't know where I have now
15:04 tadzik I could probably make neutro itself a valid module
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15:06 pmichaud I'd prefer to see testing separate from install, though.
15:07 bythos is there any at this point to compile a script to bytecode then run the bytecode?
15:07 bythos s/any/anyway
15:07 tadzik pmichaud: what do you mean?
15:08 moritz_ TimToady: It's curious how everybody seems to be using Zop instead of >>op<< these days... looks much nicer
15:08 tadzik testing without installing?
15:08 [particle] separate columns in the output?
15:08 [particle] build, test, install?
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15:08 TimToady well, Zop is also naturally lazy, whereas hypers are really more for eager situations on existing matrices
15:09 TimToady but yeah, I think Zop was a good call, in retrospect
15:09 tadzik well, if the build fails, there is no testing. If testing fails, there is no installing. Installing is usually successful, I've never seen something that does not install
15:10 tadzik and testing without installing is hard because of the dependencies
15:10 bbkr tadzik++ # I had similiar idea once, to implement 'require "git://github.com/moritz/json.git";' (runtime module fetching and evaling suitable for fast testing). and neutro is first step toward git intergration :)
15:10 TimToady on rosettacode, I also find myself replace things like 'map * ** 2, ...' with '... X** 2'
15:10 TimToady *replacing
15:10 moritz_ that's a neat one too
15:10 tadzik bbkr: well, it's just a temporary solution, until masak++ finishes pls ;)
15:10 pmichaud hugme tweet rakudoperl Pascal's triangle in #perl6: sub pascal { [1], -> @p { [0, @p Z+ @p, 0] } ... *};  .say for pascal[^10];  http://rosettacode.org/wiki​/Pascal%27s_triangle#Perl_6  @TimToady++
15:10 hugme pmichaud: Sorry, too long (173 chars, 140 allowed)
15:11 TimToady could be done with Z, but then you'd have to write '... Z** 2 xx *'
15:11 pmichaud drat
15:11 tadzik yay twitter
15:11 * pmichaud shortens the url
15:11 moritz_ pmichaud: I'm writing a proper blogpost btw
15:11 tadzik but how does it work so that the function gets postcircumfix[]?
15:11 pmichaud moritz_: okay, I'll wait and (re)tweet the blockpost
15:11 pmichaud tadzik:  the function returns a list
15:11 moritz_ tadzik: it just returns a list, and .[] indexes that
15:11 tadzik erm, subroutine that is
15:11 tadzik oh sure
15:12 pmichaud tadzik: so it's like   pascal()[^10]
15:12 tadzik my bad
15:12 tadzik so what about this smoketesting?
15:12 tadzik I'll maybe start since I think everyone is waiting for someone to do it
15:13 pmichaud +1
15:13 pmichaud 15:06 <pmichaud> I'd prefer to see testing separate from install, though.
15:13 jdv79 there is a smolder target but aparrently Mr. Peters is having chronic trouble keeping that smolder server up:(
15:13 pmichaud I'd like to be able to test an existing installation
15:13 tadzik hmm
15:13 pmichaud as opposed to evaluating the results of installing
15:14 pmichaud (maybe that's impractical)
15:14 tadzik so make test will not set PERL6LIB
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15:15 pmichaud I'm just saying that if we're going to spectest star, we should test what is installed, as opposed to (in addition to) the process of installing
15:15 TimToady rakudo: say [+](1,2,3) / 2; # fayl
15:15 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«1.5␤»
15:15 TimToady should print 3
15:15 pmichaud right
15:15 pmichaud I don't think rakudo's parser understand [+] as function call syntax yet.
15:15 pmichaud *understands
15:15 tadzik oh crap, this testing will take a _long_ time
15:16 pmichaud tadzik: ...which is why I suggest it for next release :-)
15:16 tadzik volunteers?
15:16 tadzik pmichaud: on a fast machine it takes a couple of minutes
15:16 pmichaud ...if anyone knew how to do it:)
15:16 pmichaud rephrase
15:16 pmichaud ...for someone who knows how to do it :)
15:16 tadzik ./smoker.pl isn't very hard to type
15:17 pmichaud where do I run it?
15:17 tadzik you'll have to clone the neutro repo
15:17 pmichaud where do I run it?
15:17 tadzik and just run it, it will output the result
15:17 tadzik I've run mine, I'm currently at Bennu
15:17 pmichaud please don't say "just run it"
15:17 pmichaud I presume I have to have Rakudo somewhere.
15:18 pmichaud should the modules already be installed, or is this going to install them?
15:18 tadzik well, any Perl 6 implementation will do :) It's written in Perl 6, yes. Needs Rakudo and git
15:18 tadzik no, it installs them. It's actually a wraper over neutro
15:18 pmichaud does Rakudo have to be system-level installed in order to work?
15:18 pmichaud right
15:18 tadzik (which is a module installer)
15:18 pmichaud with Star, the modules are already installed.
15:18 wamba left #perl6
15:18 pmichaud so this would end up installing them on top of the already installed ones...?
15:18 tadzik yes. But we can check whether the recent git versions work or not
15:18 tadzik and poke the maintainers if not
15:19 moritz_ http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/​perl-6/pascal-triangle.html
15:19 pmichaud okay, so, no for today's Star release.
15:19 tadzik I'm testing anyway, I'll maybe notice something that is included in Star and doesn't work
15:19 pmichaud moritz_: maybe link to the rosettacode page?
15:20 rindolf joined #perl6
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15:20 * pmichaud prepares to tweet moritz's page
15:20 moritz_ pmichaud: done
15:21 tadzik pmichaud: ETA of the release?
15:21 pmichaud tadzik: whenever I get around to it this morning... probably in the next couple of hours
15:22 x3nU i wonder
15:22 x3nU is perl6-examples dead? ;f
15:22 tadzik oh, so I'll probably be done with testing then
15:22 * tadzik @ File::Tools
15:23 tadzik it could be a nice candidate, when properly tested
15:23 Mowah left #perl6
15:23 pmichaud http://twitter.com/pmichaud/status/22096932461
15:23 x3nU and if it's not who can give commit right to it? ;f
15:23 moritz_ [Coke]: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1746 - segfaults during PIR generation
15:23 moritz_ [Coke]: which makes it somewhat harder to reduce it to PIR :-)
15:23 Mowah joined #perl6
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15:37 [Coke] moritz_: ah well.
15:40 justatheory left #perl6
15:40 TimToady std: /@a/, /@b[]/;   # heh, innerestin' bug
15:41 p6eval std 32103: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Variable @b is not predeclared at /tmp/xEkAKX8jH7 line 1:␤------> [32m/@a/, /@b[33m⏏[31m[]/;   # heh, innerestin' bug[0m␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:03 120m␤»
15:41 TiMBuS Zop is cool as heck, but I refuse to use Z=> instead of >>=>>>
15:41 TiMBuS i mean look at it
15:41 moritz_ TimToady: seems that it just uses "-string interpolation rules
15:41 TimToady ja
15:41 tadzik >>=>>> actually looks like a Zip
15:41 moritz_ std: / @a.join() /
15:41 p6eval std 32103: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Variable @a is not predeclared at /tmp/PLBVECRLHp line 1:␤------> [32m/ @a[33m⏏[31m.join() /[0m␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:04 118m␤»
15:42 TimToady std: / @a.join /
15:42 p6eval std 32103: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 118m␤»
15:43 tylercurtis Oh no! If jnthn is about to go on vacation, who will make a windows installer for *+1?
15:43 pmichaud tylercurtis: good point.
15:43 [Coke] perhaps fperrad from #parrot?
15:43 tadzik Speaking of which, some guys on Warsaw.pm didn't like it not asking about a directory in which to install stuff
15:44 [Coke] tadzik: that's haaaaard.
15:44 moritz_ tadzik: the problem is that the path must be known at compile time
15:44 pmichaud tadzik: with parrot's current design, ..... right
15:44 [Coke] do they use strawberry perl?
15:44 tadzik ah
15:44 moritz_ tadzik: because parrot isn't relocateable
15:44 tadzik awful
15:44 pmichaud I forgot about the win32 version.
15:45 pmichaud maybe someone else can put one together :)
15:45 pmichaud or at least a "create win32 .msi" guide
15:47 jferrero joined #perl6
15:48 pmichaud afk, lunch
15:49 [Coke] tadzik: patches. welcome.
15:49 tadzik [Coke]: I'll pass that, I myself have no windows installed anywhere
15:51 moritz_ you can start with relocation on linux :-)
15:51 tadzik oh sure :)
15:52 moritz_ one might think it shouldn't be too hard
15:52 moritz_ have a path that is prefixed the standard search path
15:52 moritz_ s/the/to the/
15:52 moritz_ hm, and how do we tell the installed parrot that path?
15:53 tadzik it's about searching for pbcs?
15:53 tylercurtis moritz_: "The ... is the series operator, which generates lists by feeding the previous value(s) to the generating block on its right." Depending on how one reads that, it's either partially correct, or wrong.
15:54 shade\ left #perl6
15:54 tylercurtis moritz_: I think you're also missing some parentheses in the next paragraph.
15:54 tylercurtis nevermind that last bit.
15:54 moritz_ tylercurtis: do you have suggestions for clearer wording?
15:55 moritz_ s/right/left/ for one :-)
15:55 molaf joined #perl6
15:55 TimToady and maybe add 'until it reaches the goal on the right'
15:56 shade\ joined #perl6
15:56 TimToady (in this case, "whatever")
15:57 moritz_ updating now
15:57 moritz_ TimToady++
15:57 moritz_ tylercurtis++
15:57 moritz_ updated.
15:58 tylercurtis For accuracy, it would be nice to at least briefly mention cases like 1...* or 1, 2, 4 ... *, but it would also distract from the subject of the post.
15:58 tadzik maybe a link to Synopses then
15:59 moritz_ we need some docs about the series operator.
15:59 tadzik ingy: around?
15:59 TimToady btw, I'm getting to like using the -> form for the generator, because it visually says feed the left args to this funciton
16:00 tadzik I have difficulties seeing an arrow with nothing on its left
16:00 tadzik blargh, getting used to see
16:00 moritz_ 1, 2, 4, -> $x { 2 * $x } ... * # the value 4 is fed to the block
16:01 TimToady well, we could have spelled it λ
16:01 tadzik http://pb.rbfh.de/1wxHpFvt2Yy6E -- fresh tests results
16:01 stepnem left #perl6
16:01 tadzik looks like YAML needs either an instant love or a removal from Star
16:02 stepnem joined #perl6
16:03 tadzik duh, it uses TestML which doesn't work
16:03 tadzik (or -- doesn't test)
16:03 tylercurtis tadzik: when you tested TestML, did you have the test suite in the proper place?
16:04 TimToady ingy ^^
16:04 tadzik tylercurtis: Don't know what's a “proper place”
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16:04 tadzik testml recommends using ufo, and neutro uses ufo internally
16:06 tylercurtis The testml test suite has to be in $TESTMLPM6-DIR/../testml-tml to test it, I think.
16:06 tadzik duh, should be documented. but File::Find is also using files inside t/ during testing, and it has no problems with bare ufo
16:07 tadzik ah, the README says to fetch an external TestML test suite
16:07 araujo left #perl6
16:08 tadzik which says: These tests should be included in a TestML implementation
16:08 tadzik Something, somewhere went terribly wrong
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16:18 tadzik phenny: tell ingy YAML should probably have TestML in its deps.proto. Also, could TestML fetch its test suite before compiling and testing, maybe in Configure.pl?
16:18 phenny tadzik: I'll pass that on when ingy is around.
16:18 tadzik phenny: thanks buddy
16:19 tadzik hugme: hug phenny
16:19 * hugme hugs phenny
16:19 tadzik bots hugging bots :)
16:24 colomon we're obsolete!
16:24 moritz_ so far we still need humans to trigger the hug
16:25 tadzik is now known as phemny
16:25 phemny we learn fast!
16:25 phemny hugme: hug phemny
16:25 * hugme hugs phemny
16:25 * moritz_ lols
16:25 phemny is now known as tadzik
16:26 moritz_ phenny: hug hugme
16:26 tadzik phenny: you selfish bastard
16:27 tadzik every bot should have this function
16:27 tadzik and an ability to hug back when hugged
16:31 pmurias left #perl6
16:36 pugssvn r32104 | lwall++ | [STD] check variable in /@a/
16:36 pugssvn r32104 | warn on ignored subscript in /@a[]/ etc.
16:36 pugssvn r32104 | (subtle) check existence of var in /@a=[.]/ but not /@<a>=[.]/
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16:38 colomon rakudo: for $*IN.lines { say $_.trans("C" => "F", "D" => "G"); }
16:38 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«Attributes of type 'INTVAL *' cannot be subclassed from a high-level PMC.␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/NPL0QGXltr␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
16:38 drake1 look http://pastebin.ca/1925179 I wrote this Makefile and is confused whether it's alright. How would a system with perl 6 interpret the script?
16:39 [particle] p6eval: hug phenny # hug war!
16:40 [particle] tadzik: they'd never stop hugging each other... maybe unless there's a 'get a room' command to stop it
16:40 tadzik make hug not war
16:40 tadzik [particle]: actually, the '/me hugs someone back' will probably not provoke another hug
16:41 tadzik drake1: a system with perl6 has an 'perl6' executable next to usual 'perl'
16:41 tadzik there's a reason why perl 6 executable is not called 'perl'
16:42 drake1 tadzik: ah, then it's fine
16:42 TimToady if a perl6 executalbe is called 'perl', it's required to default to Perl 5 in the absence of evidence to the contrary
16:42 drake1 tadzik: was afraid it would clash
16:42 drake1 TimToady: neat
16:42 redicaps joined #perl6
16:43 TimToady such as using an extension of .pm6, or a 'use v6;' at the front
16:44 drake1 let me post a tar so you can try it
16:44 TimToady or 'module' at the front, at least until Perl 5 steals that... :)
16:44 TimToady I kinda doubt anyone is interested in trying it...
16:45 PerlJam TimToady: you think perl 5 and 6 will always lead separate lives?
16:45 TimToady yes and no
16:46 mberends left #perl6
16:47 drake1 then you're the first ones www.gangsterfreak.com/file:fonted.tar.gz
16:47 drake1 then you're the first ones http://www.gangsterfreak.com/file:fonted.tar.gz
16:47 jwest- OT: haskell is better than erlang?
16:47 jwest- if so where?
16:47 TimToady yes and no
16:47 jwest- yes where?
16:48 TimToady haskell has monads, which is both better and worse
16:49 TimToady the question is, "better for what?"
16:49 jwest- oh i was planning to use erlang or haskell with respect to speed
16:49 TimToady setting up hierarchies of betterness in the absence of a problem to solve is somewhat pointless
16:49 jwest- to create a chess tournament management software
16:50 TimToady why would that care about speed?
16:50 huf TimToady: what about moral purity?
16:50 TimToady sounds like the sort of problem that almost any language would be fast enough to handle
16:51 huf surely that's the only reasonable way to rank programming languages
16:51 TimToady *even* Perl 6
16:51 smash_ TimToady: monads are cool
16:51 TimToady monads are too hard to lift
16:52 jwest- TimToady: ok and where is  erlang better than haskell, haskell has monads
16:52 tylercurtis Erlang makes doing impure things easier.
16:52 huf lift in what sense?
16:52 TimToady erlang has a much better event system
16:53 TimToady and a good story about upgrading modules while the program is still running, without hiccuping
16:55 x3nU there's no taks that rakudo is fast enough to handle ;)
16:55 TimToady when I say "monads are too hard to lift", that's a serious criticism.  you can do almost anything with monads in haskell, but as soon as you start trying to combine monads, you'd better be a genius
16:55 x3nU task*
16:56 TimToady hey, I'm the sniper around here, not you...
16:56 TimToady std: /@a/
16:56 huf TimToady: but what do you mean when you say "lift"?
16:56 p6eval std 32103: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 117m␤»
16:57 TimToady I mean it in the haskellian sense
16:57 daxim left #perl6
16:57 TimToady I also mean it as a pun, of course.
16:58 huf i'll just go be confused now ;)
16:59 PerlJam huf: confusion is the natural state of humans.
16:59 huf not if you dont think about it!
16:59 PerlJam huf: blissfully unaware of your own confusion is just what most humans strive for.
17:01 TimToady That's the basic problem with Haskell: monads don't let you be confused, even when you want to be.
17:02 bjarneh joined #perl6
17:03 melte left #perl6
17:03 * tylercurtis doesn't understand.
17:04 PerlJam tylercurtis++  excellent!  :)
17:06 bjarneh left #perl6
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17:08 tylercurtis TimToady: can you explain more thoroughly? I have an idea of what you *might* mean (that Haskell makes it excessively difficult to use monadic things or things that use monadic things without understanding monads yourself), but I don't know if that's actually what you meant.
17:09 plobsing joined #perl6
17:12 TimToady I mean that Haskell forces you to think about most kinds of indeterminacy even when you don't care if the result is indeterminate, or are persuaded on other grounds (e.g. testing) that a program is working right enough.
17:13 TimToady When all you have is a monad, everything starts looking like a proof.
17:14 plobsing left #perl6
17:14 TimToady And you have to be smart to prove things.
17:14 TimToady And I don't always wanna be that smart.
17:14 thebird left #perl6
17:15 christine joined #perl6
17:15 * tylercurtis definitely isn't always that smart.
17:15 pmurias joined #perl6
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17:16 TimToady Math is fine, but we don't run a compiler over our kids' genomes to prove they'll work right.  Some things are better determined empirically.
17:17 moritz_ $ cut -d ': ' -f 2
17:17 moritz_ cut: the delimiter must be a single character
17:17 moritz_ why oh why?
17:17 moritz_ didn't anybody think of generalizations when writing cut?
17:17 TimToady see Unix, Arbitrary Restrictions Galore
17:18 huf there's always awk
17:18 PerlJam or sed
17:18 PerlJam or perl
17:18 tylercurtis Or perl6.
17:18 TimToady re single character, I guess someone took "Do *one* thing..." very literally
17:19 PerlJam tylercurtis: that's what I said
17:19 moritz_ perl eq any <perl1 perl2 perl3 perl4 perl5 perl6>
17:19 moritz_ excuse me, perl eq any ('perl' X~ 1..6)
17:20 jferrero left #perl6
17:21 * tylercurtis misunderstood "perl" in this context as the command named "perl".
17:21 tylercurtis Which, for now, is not likely Perl 6.
17:21 moritz_ I'm happy to report that my simulation (a bit different than before) has now been running for about 2.5 hours, and still uses less than 200MB RAM
17:21 pmichaud \o/
17:21 TimToady \o/
17:21 colomon \o/
17:21 TimToady is there any way to sneak that into *+1?
17:22 * colomon wonders if mandelbrot will suddenly start working a lot better again after this morning's patch...
17:22 pmichaud there is, if we collectively think it important enough to do so
17:22 moritz_ I've removed the SVG rendering of each step, and now have a nice resonance curve... not yet going very far on the right, but that will also work soon
17:22 szbalint that was one big memory leak eh?
17:22 jferrero joined #perl6
17:23 pmichaud oh, ouch.
17:23 moritz_ szbalint: yes; seems like it leaked every scalar
17:23 pmichaud not so simple, since the current version of Rakudo doesn't use a released Parrot.
17:23 colomon Is the question whether to use the latest Rakudo release for *+1 versus something cut today?
17:23 pmichaud colomon: yes.
17:23 TimToady have there been any major regressions?
17:24 colomon So it would also get us your .chomp optimization, which was pretty big for file input.
17:24 pmichaud the problem being that Rakudo doesn't use a released Parrot.
17:24 moritz_ hey, we can also ship the release version, and promise memory and speed improvements for the next release
17:24 pmichaud Even though we bundle our own Parrot, I'm not sure I want to bundle a non-released one.
17:24 Mowah left #perl6
17:24 tylercurtis The patch should be able to be easily ported back to the latest Rakudo that did use 2.7.0.
17:24 * moritz_ would prefer the released rakudo too
17:24 pmichaud Especially given the recent discussion on #parrot yesterday and today.
17:25 tylercurtis If it's important enough to do so.
17:26 PerlJam pmichaud: sounds like waiting for the next release might be less painful.
17:26 pmichaud are we really saying in effect that the lag between Rakudo release and Star release is too long?
17:26 moritz_ not really
17:26 colomon pmichaud: certainly seems to be trending that way.
17:26 moritz_ it was just good/bad luck that we had those fixes right after a release
17:26 pmichaud moritz_: I'm not so sure about that (more)
17:26 PerlJam moritz_: doesn't that always tend to happen to varying extents?
17:26 pmichaud big changes often land right after a release.
17:27 pmichaud or even not-so-big changes
17:27 pmichaud (I agree that in this specific instance, it was more timing luck than anything else, however.)
17:27 moritz_ that suggests to me that we just need to learn to resist the urge to ship the latest-and-shiniest
17:27 pmichaud +1
17:28 moritz_ the nice thing about having regular releases is that the next one isn't too far off
17:28 pmichaud so, so far I'm going with the compiler release
17:28 pmichaud (i.e., #32, not head)
17:29 molaf left #perl6
17:29 colomon errr... you say "latest-and-shiniest", but really, didn't yesterday's work didn't reveal that #32 is pretty broken?
17:30 moritz_ colomon: not more broken than any of our last 6 releases
17:30 colomon ie it's more a case that the problem is we're not stresstesting releases enough?
17:30 pmichaud colomon: it wasn't broken as of Thursday.
17:30 pmichaud at least, it wasn't "broken" enough to release.
17:30 pmichaud the alternative is that we could release with #31
17:30 colomon that is to say, we didn't know / understand that it was broken.
17:31 tylercurtis The release is probably best, but as far as the memory leaks go, there's a third option: release + the patch.
17:31 moritz_ well, I knew it leaked, but not to which amount
17:31 PerlJam But, this does give us a chance to put in a "known issues" section in the announcement with a comment that it has already been fixed or will be in the next release.
17:32 macroron joined #perl6
17:32 pmichaud tylercurtis: can you quickly locate the patch?
17:32 moritz_ 3a339ee8ab3a72867fe914ec9c689e1f5a890645
17:32 colomon http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​a339ee8ab3a72867fe914ec9c689e1f5a890645
17:33 tadzik pmichaud: FYI, I smoke tested the Star modules (recent git versions) and everything seems ok, besides YAML which is quite hard to test
17:33 redicaps left #perl6
17:33 pmichaud tadzik++  # thanks!
17:33 tadzik no problemo
17:33 pmichaud that's a big help.
17:33 pmichaud I'll apply the patch to the Star release.
17:34 * moritz_ renders a 201x201 mandelbrot image
17:35 moritz_ colomon++ for the code
17:36 colomon moritz_: I don't remember how small I was able to get it to crash last time I played with it.  I'm sure 501x501 crashed.  I seem to recall successfully generating 1001x1001 at some point in the spring...
17:39 TimToady btw, http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set is one of the tasks lacking a Perl 6 solution
17:39 colomon TimToady: Ack, the temptations you lay before me!  must... focus... on... $work....
17:40 pmurias left #perl6
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17:45 * [Coke] misses Modula-3
17:45 * TimToady blames Oberon
17:46 drake1 INIT_VERSION=sysvinit-2.86_modified. When your shell don't forward the environment, it starts to call utents and becomes unreliable
17:47 [Coke] I don't see why R* couldn't ship a non-released version of parrot, given that R* contains it whole. The only reason to not want non-release versions in general is when you are relying on package maintainers to deal with dependencies, and don't want them to have to bundle a non-released parrot. in R*'s case, you ARE the packager.
17:47 risou left #perl6
17:48 moritz_ [Coke]: people are packaging R* for distributions, with separate rakudo and parrot packages
17:48 pmichaud [Coke]: except that the R* configuration doesn't always use the local parrot.
17:48 [Coke] moritz_: if they are pulling their parrot from inside R*, then that still works.
17:48 pmichaud i.e., it only uses the bundled parrot if --gen-parrot is provided.  If not provided, Configure.pl attempts to use an installed parrot.
17:49 pmurias joined #perl6
17:49 [Coke] ok. but that's an argument that makes a lot of sense from the packaging side. whatever was said in #parrot nonwithstanding.
17:49 pmurias ruoso: hi
17:49 drake1 just coded scan mode tie ins for some other grammar. maybe parrot is alright
17:50 pmichaud while Rakudo development has often used non-released Parrots, we've never released a Rakudo that used a non-released Parrot.  I'm categorically not starting down that path today.
17:50 [Coke] Ok. that's a great an excellent plan which doesn't need to have anything to do with anything said in #parrot today. =-)
17:50 [Coke] *and
17:51 moritz_ rakudo: say 5/4
17:51 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«1.25␤»
17:51 Mowah joined #perl6
17:52 pugssvn r32105 | patrickas++ | Fix test for exclusive alternating geometric series
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18:08 drake1 just reading on the parrot grammar. do you know whether it's possible to modify the token patterns by signaling from rules?
18:11 drake1 eg. <$read_mode1> /pattern/ { object stuff; return(token); }
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18:12 ingy tadzik: greetings
18:12 phenny ingy: 16:18Z <tadzik> tell ingy YAML should probably have TestML in its deps.proto. Also, could TestML fetch its test suite before compiling and testing, maybe in Configure.pl?
18:12 tylercurtis drake1: what exactly do you mean by that?
18:12 drake1 when the read mode changes, the entire set of "tokenizers" change to
18:13 pmichaud drake1: that sound to me like entering a derived/alternate grammar
18:13 pmichaud *sounds
18:13 ingy tadzik: I can do that stuff now
18:13 pmichaud we do some of that already, such as when the Perl 6 parser switches into the regex or quotation parser
18:14 drake1 like how you perceive the world yourself; sometimes more cautious to some things than other
18:14 tadzik ingy: great
18:14 ingy :)
18:14 ingy tadzik: will you be around for another hour?
18:14 drake1 like to scope / mask the token set by a signal
18:15 ingy I'll have you test it.
18:15 tadzik ingy: probably
18:15 * ingy hurries
18:15 tadzik no problemo
18:15 tylercurtis You could also store the readmode in a variable and have conditionals in each rule that cares to dispatch based on the readmode. But that's likely a bit ugly.
18:15 ingy are we prepping a new star release?
18:15 tadzik yep
18:15 drake1 tylercurtis: that's the slow way
18:15 ingy where should I build star from?
18:16 pmichaud I'm building a candidate tarball now.
18:16 ingy \o/
18:17 lichtkind pmichaud: ohai
18:17 lichtkind ingy: :)
18:17 drake1 sometimes you see things in a more abstract token form
18:17 ingy pmichaud: ping me whenthe tarball is go please
18:19 pmichaud ingy: how do you mean "tarball is go"?  You mean when it's released?
18:20 tadzik . o O (go go pmichaud's tarballs!)
18:20 tylercurtis rakudo: $_ = "36"; m/ (\d) { make $/[0].sqrt } Remainder /; say $/.ast; # curiousity
18:20 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
18:20 ingy pmichaud: I want to test TestML and YAML against your release candidate
18:21 ingy is it ready?
18:21 tadzik Star doesn't do testing, does it?
18:21 ingy ?
18:22 tadzik while building/installing I mean
18:22 tadzik oh, can someone build the new book?
18:22 pmichaud ingy: afaik, TestML and YAML are bundled with the release
18:22 pmichaud tadzik: I already have the new book in the tarball.
18:23 tadzik pmichaud: how new, the last build? There were some fixes since then
18:23 ingy I just want to know if there is a stable code base that I can build to test my modules...
18:23 pmichaud ingy: we're still working out that process.  Normally you'd want to build against the latest compiler release.
18:23 pmichaud (for testing)
18:23 ingy pmichaud: you said 11:16 < pmichaud> I'm building a candidate tarball now.
18:23 ingy I want to use that
18:24 ingy so let me know when it's available
18:24 pmichaud ingy: I don't plan to wait long before doing the release though.
18:24 ingy please
18:24 pmichaud I'm tracking down a bug in the build system atm.
18:24 ingy I see
18:25 ingy pmichaud: when you do the final release, will it pull in new copies of the current state of the modules?
18:25 pmichaud currently I'm pulling in the new copies, yes.
18:25 tadzik hmm
18:25 ingy pmichaud: can you give me 30 mins?
18:26 tadzik is it too late for neutro? A working module installer is not a bad thing
18:26 tadzik aw, it's unix only
18:26 pmichaud ingy: yes, I can probably give 30 mins.
18:26 ingy what about ufo?
18:26 patch tadzik: hi
18:26 tadzik patch: hello
18:26 TSa joined #perl6
18:27 patch tadzik: should deps.proto contain he module name (testml) or the repo name (testml-pm6)?
18:27 moritz_ repo name for now
18:27 tadzik patch: the proto name, which is the repo name
18:27 tadzik . o O (patch eqv ingy?)
18:27 lichtkind jnthn: na zdravi
18:28 patch moritz_, tadzik: thanks!
18:28 tadzik although neutro should understand both :)
18:28 tadzik patch: you're welcome
18:28 patch tadzik: !eqv
18:28 zorgnax joined #perl6
18:29 tylercurtis lichtkind: I think jnthn has already left for his vacation.
18:29 PerlJam he said goodbye this morning, so I assume he's actually gone.
18:29 ingy (patch is helping me, um, patch my modules)
18:29 lichtkind tylercurtis: thanks
18:29 crumbpicker joined #perl6
18:29 tadzik appropriate nickname he/she has, then
18:30 lichtkind tylercurtis: are you on perl prof team?
18:32 jwest- left #perl6
18:33 zorgnax I was reading the S05 and had a question on the <~~3> syntax. Is it possible to refer to captures at several parentheses deep as in <~~0,1,0>? and what does (a)((b)<~~0>)) refer to? (a)((b)(a)) or (a)((b)(b))?
18:34 crumbpicker left #perl6
18:34 moritz_ doesn't look like it
18:35 moritz_ if you want something more elaborate, it's probably better to just name the thing you want to match against
18:35 ingy does Configure.pl --gen-parrot mess up an earlier install of perl6?
18:35 moritz_ yes
18:35 ingy k
18:36 moritz_ unless you chose a different prefix
18:36 moritz_ std: / a <~~>? /
18:36 p6eval std 32105: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 116m␤»
18:36 ingy but make install puts perl6 in /usr/local/bin
18:36 ingy how does it know about src/rakudo?
18:37 drake1 in the http://www.gangsterfreak.com/doc , the token types change; sometimes only spaces are recognized, other time name expanded tokens and sometimes it's just strings
18:37 moritz_ it shouldn't mess with the perl6 in /usr/local/
18:37 ingy it did
18:38 sorear good * #perl6
18:38 moritz_ do you have some symlinks between src/rakudo and /usr/local?
18:38 ingy because now it works again, since I finish make install of the new gen
18:38 ingy no
18:38 ingy I don't
18:38 moritz_ weird.
18:39 drake1 completely top/down and vice versa integration
18:42 pmichaud ingy: http://www.pmichaud.com/sandbox​/rakudo-star-2010-08-rc1.tar.gz # release candidate tarball
18:42 mberends joined #perl6
18:45 TimToady maybe it should be *-8
18:46 TimToady wait, that breaks in January...
18:46 Trashlord left #perl6
18:52 colomon is that *-8, *-9, *-10... or *-8, *-7, *-6...  ?  ;)
18:53 moritz_ colomon: the 201er mandelbrot worked fine, running the 1001er now :-)
18:53 colomon \o/
18:53 colomon err... why I am not trying that myself?  ;)
18:53 moritz_ but I changed it to do Num arithmetic instead of Rat
18:54 moritz_ in the hope that it is faster
18:54 colomon moritz_: I've actually tried that, and it made surprisingly little difference.
18:54 colomon (when I tried it, things may have changed)
18:54 moritz_ about 20s per line
18:54 colomon seems likely to be a sign that something else in there is very very very unreasonably slow.
18:54 moritz_ aye
18:55 moritz_ rakudo: say 2001 * 1/3 # expect runtime in minutes...
18:55 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«667␤»
18:55 moritz_ rakudo: say 2001 * 1/3 / 60
18:55 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«11.1166666666667␤»
18:55 moritz_ that's going to be an all-nighter :-)
18:55 colomon moritz_: amount of time per line changes as the fractal gets bigger
18:55 moritz_ colomon: right :(
18:55 colomon ie it's 20s per 201 pixels.
18:55 moritz_ for the worse, iirc
18:56 colomon it's its probably 10 pixels a sec or so, so 1001 is
18:56 colomon rakudo: say 1001 * 1001 / 10
18:56 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«100200.1␤»
18:56 colomon rakudo: say 1001 * 1001 / 600
18:56 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«1670.00166666667␤»
18:57 moritz_ gqview shows parts of corrupted/incomplete images, and refereshes every few seconds - so I actually get visual feedback
18:57 pmichaud rakudo:  say 1001*1001/86400
18:57 colomon rakudo: say 1001 * 1001 / (60 * 600)
18:57 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«11.5972337962963␤»
18:57 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«27.8333611111111␤»
18:57 colomon oh sweet!
18:57 colomon (visual feedback, I mean.)
18:58 colomon 27.8 hours.  ugh.
18:58 [Coke] colomon: ?
18:58 colomon [Coke]: estimating how long it will take moritz_'s machine to finish his 1001x1001 mandelbrot run.
18:59 slavik colomon: it's already done
18:59 slavik colomon: but that is data from 100 years in the future
18:59 rindolf left #perl6
19:00 x3nU is there any chanses that r* will be released today?
19:00 moritz_ x3nU: yes. pmichaud already posted a link to a release candidate
19:00 moritz_ http://www.pmichaud.com/sandbox​/rakudo-star-2010-08-rc1.tar.gz
19:00 moritz_ testing welcome
19:00 x3nU thanks
19:02 pmichaud x3nU: I have a few $othertasks that will keep me a bit occupied for the next ~4h; I'll probably release around then.
19:03 pmichaud oh, argggh
19:03 pmichaud the rc1 candidate didn't get the patch applied
19:04 ingy tadzik: when was testml added to *?
19:04 tadzik ingy: no idea
19:04 ingy I think that last * only had yaml
19:05 ingy even though it uses testml tests
19:05 ingy pmichaud said that the install didn't run tests
19:05 ingy so it wasn't an issue
19:05 Mowah left #perl6
19:06 pmichaud so far the install doesn't run any tests.  It likely should at some point.
19:06 ingy ok, I would suggest pulling testml-pm6 from this release then
19:06 pmichaud afaik it's not there, unless it's under some other name.
19:07 ingy oh
19:07 ingy ok
19:07 ingy :)
19:07 ingy I thought tadzik said it was
19:07 ingy my bad
19:07 ingy I think testml would be a great addition to the next R* :)
19:08 pmichaud I think tadzik may have been referring to it as a standalone module, not necessarily as bundled in R*
19:08 TimToady doesn't the typical mandelbrot iteration very quickly exceed the precision of a Rat and graduate to a Num anyway?
19:08 pmichaud i.e., YAML should identify TestML as one of its dependencies
19:09 ingy pmichaud: patch++ has made that so
19:09 pmichaud excellent.
19:09 ingy er
19:09 ingy patch: ?
19:10 patch ingy: sent you a pull request
19:10 patch ingy: i don't have commits on yaml-pm6
19:10 ingy oh
19:10 ingy let me take care of that!
19:11 ingy done
19:11 ingy patch: please push
19:11 ingy I wish github made it easier to give out commit bits
19:12 moritz_ that's what hugme is for :-)
19:12 ingy oh?
19:12 ingy just for rakudo?
19:12 moritz_ hugme: add ingy to json
19:12 * hugme hugs ingy. Welcome to json!
19:12 moritz_ afk
19:12 pmichaud hugme: show projects
19:12 hugme pmichaud: sorry, I don't know anything about 'projects'
19:12 patch pmichaud, ingy: yaml-pm6 now has deps.proto
19:13 pmichaud hugme: list projects
19:13 hugme pmichaud: I know about Math-Model, Math-RungeKutta, MiniDBI, book, gge, hugme, ilbot, java2perl6, json, modules.perl6.org, november, nqp-rx, nqpbook, perl6-examples, perl6-wtop, process-cmd-args, proto, pugs, star, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, tardis, temporal-flux-perl6syn, try.rakudo.org, tufte, ufo, web, yapsi
19:13 ingy patch++
19:13 ingy patch: let's get back to hacking
19:14 patch ingy: we should figure out this tesml-pm6/testml-tml business soon
19:14 ingy patch: I'm all over it
19:14 ingy :)
19:14 pmichaud http://www.pmichaud.com/sandbox​/rakudo-star-2010.08-rc2.tar.gz
19:14 pmichaud (if anyone is curious/interested)
19:16 patch pmichaud: so there's currently no distinguishing a dependency from a test dependency, they should all just go in deps.proto?
19:16 drake1 I've just been hacking the character memory of the VGA card
19:16 Mowah joined #perl6
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19:17 tadzik patch: take a look at http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/2010/08/09​/so-you-want-to-write-a-perl-6-module/
19:18 drake1 next step is to transliterate the C compiler
19:19 drake1 without perl it's wouldn't be straight ahead to modify
19:20 pnate left #perl6
19:20 ingy tadzik: I hate that lib and logotype conflict with tab completion!
19:21 tadzik ingy: not my fault :(
19:21 * tadzik points at absent masak
19:22 drake1 perl ctr | cc -x C
19:22 zorgnax left #perl6
19:23 patch tadzik: thanks, it doesn't seem to distinguish between requires and build_requires (as in META.yml)
19:24 patch tadzik: where testml would really just be a build_requires
19:25 drake1 some of the $(CC)'s use perl to generate the switch codes
19:27 drake1 then with a type-system optimized for the lexical analyzer, it shouldn't take to to process
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19:29 TSa is now known as glurks
19:29 glurks is now known as TSa
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19:36 tadzik patch: that can be changed :)
19:36 patch :)
19:37 * moritz_ back
19:37 tadzik but it wouldn't matter anyway, with the build system now. And it doesn't in Perl 5 either, as everyone uses cpanminus anyway
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20:00 TimToady phone
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20:02 moritz_ 179 out of 1001 lines of mandelbrot rendered... looks pretty so far, but not very interesting yet :-)
20:02 mberends joined #perl6
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20:16 tadzik loliblogged, weird stuff: http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/20​10/08/25/on-the-language-wars/
20:19 macroron left #perl6
20:20 * gfldex noms tadzik blogpost
20:21 mrsaturns joined #perl6
20:21 mrsaturns "Hello, World!".say;
20:21 x3nU i have asked that question before but nobody responded ;f how do i contribute to perl6-examples? ;)
20:22 * moritz_ loves tadzik's blog post
20:22 gfldex x3nU: you talk to http://github.com/unobe
20:23 moritz_ x3nU: 1) tell my your github ID
20:23 moritz_ 2) get a commit bit
20:23 x3nU moritz_: xenu
20:23 moritz_ hugme: add xeno to perl6-examples
20:23 * hugme hugs xeno. Welcome to perl6-examples!
20:23 x3nU moritz_: you made typo :)
20:23 moritz_ oops
20:23 moritz_ hugme: add xenu to perl6-examples
20:24 * hugme hugs xenu. Welcome to perl6-examples!
20:24 x3nU thanks
20:24 moritz_ http://github.com/perl6/perl6-examples/
20:24 moritz_ that's the "offical" one
20:24 x3nU seems dead
20:24 x3nU ;d
20:24 moritz_ feel free to revive it
20:24 pnate joined #perl6
20:25 dual joined #perl6
20:26 * pmichaud removes "xeno" from perl6-examples.
20:26 moritz_ ok
20:27 moritz_ otherwise I would have
20:27 pmichaud hugme knows how to remove?
20:27 moritz_ no
20:27 tadzik blogpost reddited
20:27 moritz_ I'm hacking up a script that uses the API to remove one
20:27 pmichaud ah
20:27 pmichaud okay :-)
20:28 moritz_ seems to have worked, one way or another
20:28 pmichaud TimToady: when you mentioned "idiomatic Perl 6" earlier, I'm wondering how many people are mentally doing a s/ma// :-|
20:28 smash_ left #perl6
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20:29 pmichaud (some of the reaction to the pascal example hasn't been all that positive :-)
20:30 colomon pmichaud: where?
20:30 pmichaud colomon: where what.... negative reaction?
20:31 colomon yes
20:31 pmichaud colomon: example comment:  "his is totally unreadable code. No one, not even Saint Larry, should code like this. EVER. "
20:31 Padz joined #perl6
20:31 pmichaud *This
20:31 moritz_ http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/per​l-6/pascal-triangle.writeback
20:31 moritz_ one negative comment
20:31 moritz_ two curious
20:31 moritz_ one positive
20:32 pmichaud http://twitter.com/shadowc​at_mst/status/22112066276
20:32 tadzik oh wow
20:32 pmichaud http://twitter.com/pedromelo/status/22110965152
20:32 tadzik this is what is called a Fail
20:32 tadzik the comment with Saint Larry
20:32 pmichaud various retweets
20:33 tadzik duh, it's like judging Perl readability because of Perl Golf
20:33 pmichaud tadzik: ...except in this case, we'd consider this to be idiomatic.
20:33 pmichaud or at least more idiomatic than some of the other solutions.
20:33 mrsaturns I wouldn't say it's *totally* unreadable. I pretty much got "sub", "say", and ";" out of it
20:33 mrsaturns :P
20:34 moritz_ well, idiomatic strongly depends on your skill level with the language
20:34 tadzik sure thing
20:34 moritz_ for a functional language, this is a rather typical approach
20:34 plainhao left #perl6
20:34 moritz_ the p5 lovers don't think that functional yet
20:34 tadzik after few weeks of learning Spanish, you probably won't be able to read a Spanish books
20:34 tadzik Haskell people may like it then :)
20:34 pmichaud I'm not at all advocating that we change anything; I was just wondering about the reactions :)
20:34 moritz_ and I try to explain them
20:35 pmichaud I've certainly seen mathematical formulas that are far more difficult to read than this.  :)
20:35 tadzik that reminds me of my Linear Algebra exam :/
20:36 eternaleye_ joined #perl6
20:36 pmichaud personally, I like the pascal example a lot.
20:36 moritz_ it's curious that mst uses "camelia perl" for Perl 6, and "perl" for Perl 5
20:36 pmichaud moritz_: I think that may just be because he doesn't have a good "qualifier" adjective for Perl 5 yet.
20:37 pmichaud i.e., he'd like to say "<something> perl" for Perl 5, but we don't have a good <something> yet.
20:37 moritz_ well, if you find "camlia" good for Perl 6, the obvious would be "camel" for 5
20:37 pmichaud Maybe it should be "Whatever Perl"
20:37 pmichaud camel is trademarked, though.
20:37 moritz_ I don't really like "camelia perl" for 6 though
20:37 eternaleye_ left #perl6
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20:37 eternaleye_ is now known as eternaleye
20:38 tadzik He's probably trying to insult Perl 6 in a delicate way, but I may understand it wrong
20:38 sorear mst insults everyone and everything
20:38 sorear don't take it personally
20:38 moritz_ tadzik: I don't think that's his intent
20:38 pmichaud tadzik: no, I'm pretty sure he's not meaning it as a put-down, insult, or otherwise denigrating Perl 6.
20:39 moritz_ tadzik: it's more like trying to get rid of "perl 6 is the perl 5 successor" idea
20:39 pmichaud nor is he intending "camelia perl" in the sense of "imposter" or "not the real Perl"
20:39 TimToady he's using it like "strawberry perl"
20:39 pmichaud (I've had discussions with mst on this very point.)
20:39 pmichaud yes, as TimToady++ says
20:39 tadzik hmm, sounds like "This childish Perl". But you know him better, I'm probably wrong
20:39 pmichaud it's identifying a particular flavor of Perl.
20:39 bythos joined #perl6
20:40 [particle] tadzik: when have you known mst to dance around an insult?
20:40 moritz_ [particle]: when it's something where he knows an insult will be contra productive
20:40 colomon for what it's worth (I did knock some of TimToady's code elsewhere in Rosetta yesterday), I think [1], -> @p { [0, @p Z+ @p, 0] } ... *   is crystal clear idiomatic perl 6.  It's simple and it perfectly captures the nature of the math.
20:41 pmichaud visually I ran into difficulty in initially seeing it as  0, (@p Z+ @p), 0
20:41 pmichaud when it's really  (0, @p) Z+ (@p, 0)
20:41 TimToady this is why those guys are all big operators
20:41 Padz left #perl6
20:42 TimToady either tall or long
20:42 pmichaud right, but somehow Z+ wasn't big enough for me.
20:42 pmichaud maybe it's my font.
20:42 patrickas I guess the problem is trying to apreciate that without having gotten used to perl6 is really hard
20:42 TimToady partly it's becuase the 0's stick up too far
20:42 pmichaud well, I'm also so used to seeing the comma as such a low-level operator, it's a little hard to get used to the idea that something like Z+ is lower.
20:43 pmichaud I'm sure it would come with practice -- that was just my initial confusion.
20:43 pmichaud (which I'm sure others will share for a while.)
20:44 TimToady I think some of the reaction is understandable: "There's more than one thing here I don't understand, and that's N-1 things too many."
20:44 bythos left #perl6
20:45 pmichaud TimToady: I think I agree, for now.
20:45 pmichaud I'm giving talks at a Python conference this weekend, and I know what their reaction would likely be.  :-)
20:46 plobsing joined #perl6
20:46 TimToady for them, you want to give them a few things they can *almost* do :)
20:46 pmichaud I've already got a budding talk about "similarities I've noticed between Python and Perl 6"  :-)
20:46 ejs left #perl6
20:46 tadzik [particle]: I didn't, that was just my first thought after seeing this tweet
20:47 TimToady and one glaring difference: list comprehensions fall out naturally in Perl 6 rather than being special syntax
20:47 pmichaud yes, I was planning to give list comprehensions as an example.  :)
20:47 gfldex pmichaud: please make sure that the faces of the audience are recorded too :)
20:47 pmichaud gfldex: I've given presentations to this group before; it's quite friendly for the most part (more)
20:48 pmichaud actually, the conference organizer is trying to get people to commit to giving lightning talks at the end of the conference, but only had a few takers (more)
20:48 pmichaud so he sent a message to the list saying "any unfilled lightning talk slots will be given to pmichaud, who will undoubtedly use them to show of Perl 6 stuff"  :-)
20:48 pmichaud *show off
20:49 moritz_ lol
20:49 pmichaud lots of talk submissions ensued shortly thereafter :)
20:49 pmichaud (especially after I sent a message saying that I'd make good on the organizer's threat :)
20:49 moritz_ so, how many lightning talk slots did you get? :-)
20:49 pmichaud won't know until Saturday
20:49 pmichaud but I have no doubt that I can fill them
20:50 pmichaud (I suspect I'll get just the two I requested.)
20:50 tadzik pmichaud: curiosity, do you always speak as fast as on the LOLCODE talk?
20:50 pmichaud tadzik: no, not always.
20:50 pmichaud tadzik: only when I have a time limit, as I did then.
20:50 tadzik I really liked that one :)
20:50 moritz_ I found the first 4 minutes of the lolcode talk quite reasonable
20:50 Ross joined #perl6
20:51 pmichaud I did too -- that talk is one of my favorites.  I've been wanting to come up with an equally good hack since then.
20:52 moritz_ (277 lines of mandelbrot calcualted... the head of the snowman is starting to show)
20:52 pmichaud moritz_: we're 27% done (at least in terms of lines?)
20:52 diakopter there is at least one thing I don't get about "There's more than one thing here I don't understand, and that's N-1 things too many."
20:52 pmichaud ?
20:52 moritz_ pmichaud: yes
20:52 pmichaud not too bad... but I guess the expensive part is yet to come
20:53 moritz_ after about 2h runtime; memory still below 200M
20:53 pmichaud iirc, the numbers in the set are the ones that take longest to calculate
20:53 am0c left #perl6
20:53 moritz_ black = exeeded iteration limit, iirc
20:53 moritz_ *exceeded
20:53 pmichaud right
20:54 patrickas diakopter: ?
20:55 moritz_ diakopter: most people can't digest more than one new concept at a time
20:55 sorear moritz_: pixels/(GHz-sec) = ?
20:55 pmichaud tadzik: (finally getting around to reading your blog post)....
20:55 pmichaud tadzik: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH   tadzik++ tadzik++ tadzik++
20:56 moritz_ rakudo: 1001 * 270 / (2.2 * 2 * 3600)
20:56 p6eval rakudo 3a339e:  ( no output )
20:56 moritz_ rakudo: print 1001 * 270 / (2.2 * 2 * 3600)
20:56 sorear tadzik: are you on planetsix?
20:56 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«17.0625»
20:56 moritz_ sorear: ^^
20:56 pmichaud fortunately, Perl is already an onion.  Those pasta, tomato, and mushroom loving dweebs don't know what they're talking about.  :-)
20:57 tadzik sorear: I don't think so
20:57 tadzik sorear: but I hope one day not everything will be Perl related ;)
20:57 tadzik pmichaud: I'm glad you like it :)
20:57 moritz_ tadzik: if you have a perl (or perl6) tag, and a feed that filters by that talk, all is fine (and we can use tha feed for planetsix)
20:58 tadzik moritz_: I have
20:59 sorear tadzik++ tadzik++ tadzik++
20:59 moritz_ tadzik: http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/category/perl/feed/ this one?
21:00 tadzik moritz_: looks fine
21:00 tadzik oh, I may want to adjust categories for that last one
21:00 tadzik I'm tempted to add Perl to it :)
21:00 moritz_ phenny: tell [Coke] could you please add http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/category/perl/feed/ (nick tadzik, realname Tadeusz Sośnierz) to planetsix? thank you
21:00 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when [Coke] is around.
21:00 moritz_ tadzik: please do
21:01 tadzik (although adding Python would be a little _too_ offensive)
21:02 tadzik moritz_: fixed-faxed
21:02 moritz_ tadzik: the categories should be selected not only by what the post is about, but also what readers interest
21:03 tadzik you're right
21:03 moritz_ ie if the post is not directly about perl, but interesting for the perl readers, add it
21:04 Holy_Cow joined #perl6
21:05 drake1 joined #perl6
21:06 drake1 hehehe now I wrote this in perl6 http://pastebin.ca/1925348 . How would the equivalent line 13-14 be written in perl6 ?
21:06 drake1 in perl5*
21:06 Mowah left #perl6
21:06 tadzik it is in Perl 5, isn't it?
21:06 tadzik oh, wrong substitution
21:07 tadzik I think: @but = @cmd.grep( .title eq $msgst[0]).map( $_<but> )
21:07 drake1 ok
21:08 tadzik not checked, beware ;)
21:08 bjarneh joined #perl6
21:08 sorear yeah you need blocks in there
21:09 sorear also probably .<title> if it's a hash
21:09 drake1 it is
21:09 drake1 it
21:09 drake1 it's a hash with the button object, the title and the command
21:10 whiteknight joined #perl6
21:10 tadzik moritz_: happy reddit birthday!
21:11 drake1 thank goddess for terminal emulators, the who desktop is full just for one application
21:12 drake1 s,who,whole
21:12 * moritz_ isn't sure that's an occasion to celebrate
21:13 tadzik well, I was hoping you'll share a cake :P
21:14 moritz_ you can have the whole of it :-)
21:14 * moritz_ -> sleep
21:15 tadzik :)
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21:23 drake1 instead of using hash, can I simply say: class { .title = "title", .cmd = ... ?
21:24 tadzik probably
21:24 drake1 should the class not be define only once?
21:25 drake1 with an instance for each [ title, cmd, button ] struct
21:27 tadzik Define once, instantiate many times
21:27 drake1 it's probably the same data type underneath
21:27 tadzik you could also use an anonymous class, but they may be NYI
21:28 drake1 tadzik: I mean to define the class with thow three member and base an object on that for each task definition
21:28 drake1 s,thow,those
21:29 tadzik yeah, I understand
21:30 drake1 then it would be more easy to define a method to retrieve the keys instead of using `map'
21:31 drake1 I guess
21:31 timbunce left #perl6
21:32 drake1 maybe it's faster to map a hash with the array index or a reference
21:32 dalek niecza: 43b3f6a | sorear++ | src/Niecza/Actions.pm:
21:32 dalek niecza: Fix parsing of regex backslash classes
21:32 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/4​3b3f6a1d724d4a2a35193fb6031d0b2fd0fb5b2
21:32 dalek niecza: d8daad9 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
21:32 dalek niecza: . and <!> for regexes
21:32 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/d​8daad9ad148b42cda5aba732b711fe898ea26f6
21:32 dalek niecza: 8c59198 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
21:32 dalek niecza: Change Cursor to use CClass.pm character classes
21:32 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/8​c5919828d64a07722f50a8283f58f686f3647d5
21:32 Guest23195 left #perl6
21:33 drake1 except if perl6 is smart enough to cache the results
21:33 tadzik cache?
21:33 drake1 a `map' function could have the output cached
21:33 drake1 implicitly
21:34 ashleydev moritz_: what's the deal with calling a sub with square parens?  # pascal[^10]
21:34 tadzik he's asleep. The function returns a lazy list
21:35 tadzik so you're using the result as an array (list)
21:35 ashleydev how is it different than pascal(^10)?
21:35 drake1 line 13-14 could store the @but behind the scenes and only update when @cmd changes (which it never does)
21:35 tadzik the function takes no params. It's rather like @a = pascal; @a[^10]
21:35 ashleydev ah
21:35 tadzik took me a moment too ;)
21:36 ashleydev pascal().[^10].perl
21:36 Juerd The sub is just there to confuse you.
21:36 TimToady you should just ignore the sub, since it's just a compile-time declaration of a constant that only happens to be an infinite list of lists
21:37 TimToady in fact, I should probably have declared that way: constant @pascal := etc
21:38 ashleydev TimToady: are you speaking of moritz_ blog article?
21:38 colomon TimToady: that won't actually work in current rakudo, will it?
21:38 drake1 char const *but alike
21:38 TimToady yes
21:39 TimToady and yes, I think
21:39 ashleydev hmm so: sub pascal {...} is a compile time constant?
21:39 TimToady rakudo: constant @foo = 1,2,4 ... *; say @foo[10]
21:39 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Constant type declarator not yet implemented at line 22, near "= 1,2,4 .."␤»
21:39 colomon ashleydev: no, but in an ideal sense it does the same thing here.
21:39 TimToady ah well
21:40 drake1 with restrict *butp; constructor
21:40 patrickas colomon do you have a min ?
21:40 TimToady commuting &
21:40 ashleydev sure I could see @array := ...
21:40 ashleydev that wouldn't have cause me confusion
21:41 pnate left #perl6
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21:43 masak ahoy, #perl6
21:44 patrickas LOLITSMASAK!
21:44 * jferrero use common::sense
21:44 javs left #perl6
21:45 tadzik hello masak
21:45 * masak backlogs
21:46 tadzik how do you backlog after being offline?
21:46 masak there are logs at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/
21:46 tadzik duh, I thought you have some secret tech
21:46 huf .. is the stupid cousin of ..., right?
21:47 masak huf: well, yes and no.
21:47 tadzik hmm, not really
21:47 masak huf: infix:<..> creates a Range, which mainly just says "from here to there"
21:48 masak huf: infix:<...> creates a list, which if iterated gives you a bunch of values.
21:48 patrickas huf: I tend to think of ... as the smartass cousin of .. :-)
21:48 huf aha!
21:48 masak tadzik: want to help me finish up pls? :)
21:48 huf i have indeed seen the light
21:50 tadzik masak: now? :)
21:50 masak tadzik: I was thinking tomorrow.
21:50 tadzik hmm
21:50 tadzik evening?
21:51 tadzik I planned to start learning for mah exams
21:51 masak let's talk UTC for simplicity.
21:51 tadzik it's 21 UTC now, right?
21:51 tadzik we're in similar TZ's iirc
21:51 masak almost 22 UTC.
21:51 szbalint 21:51 UTC, yes.
21:52 tadzik a'right
21:52 masak oh right.
21:52 masak tadzik: .pl?
21:52 tadzik masak: yep
21:52 szbalint CEST :)
21:52 masak lovely place. I've been there several times.
21:52 tadzik we're changing TZ's in Poland twice a year, so I never know :P
21:52 szbalint or I should have said czesc :P
21:52 x3nU so you been in poland or in lovely place?
21:52 x3nU ;d
21:53 masak anyway, evening after about 21 our time (19 UTC) would work for me.
21:53 masak x3nU: yes. :)
21:54 x3nU tadzik: also, nothing really important or urgent but i think that crating polish perl 6 wikibook would be a good idea
21:54 x3nU creating*
21:55 tadzik oh, we're in the same timezone masak?
21:56 masak CEST, as szbalint++ said :)
21:56 tadzik x3nU: well, maybe translating the Perl 6 Book
21:57 masak i
21:57 tadzik masak: 21 is ok for me
21:57 masak it's quite a big task to translate a book, so figure out ways to reward yourself along the way...
21:57 masak tadzik: goodie.
21:57 masak tadzik: during the day, I'll see what I can do to set things up.
21:58 x3nU there's much time ;d
21:58 masak the work that needs to be done is very parallelizable.
21:58 masak basically, go through all the existing modules once, and see that they install.
21:58 masak if they don't, do stuff.
21:59 tadzik wait, are we installing everything available, or a specific thing?
22:00 tadzik some guys were looking for a grant about translating the book to russian
22:00 Holy_Cow left #perl6
22:00 masak tadzik: a specific thing, one after the other.
22:00 masak tadzik: last week moritz_++ discovered that pls doesn't install dependencies.
22:01 masak it works in the test suite, but poc doesn't have the logic to find and install dependencies.
22:01 masak in fact, I should probably add a failsafe in App::Pls that carps if there's no provided way to find out a project's dependencies.
22:02 * sorear hopes for a better #cpan6sketch next week
22:02 tadzik well, no way to find usuallly means no deps
22:03 masak tadzik: in the case of poc, there is a way. I just didn't think to put it in. a blatant error would have reminded me to.
22:04 tadzik well, if make fails, there is a chance that they're missing
22:04 masak I did not understand that statement.
22:04 sorear TimToady: Is the full list of things \h and \v match listed anywhere?
22:04 masak tadzik: we might be talking about slightly different things.
22:05 sorear masak: Nobody showed up last time.
22:05 masak sorear: I know. I couldn't make it, and said so beforehand.
22:05 masak sorear: in general though, I can make it.
22:05 sorear You're not the only cpan6er...
22:05 masak I'm not really sure what can be decided at these meetings, but I'm eager to contribute just to see what'll happen.
22:06 masak sorear: don't lose hope! there'll be more weeks.
22:06 tadzik masak: you mean something similar to ufo handling compiling order?
22:06 masak tadzik: the compiling order in ufo is strictly intra-project.
22:06 sorear masak: the big idea is that Alias is supposed to show up
22:07 tadzik masak: yeah, but I mean the 'looking inside' concept
22:07 masak tadzik: here's what I mean by dependency. you download a project. it has a file called deps.proto. in it, the projects that need be installed for the project you downloaded to build properly are listed.
22:07 tadzik right
22:08 masak tadzik: so, after you've fetched a project, you can know its dependency. that's on the API level.
22:08 masak on the implementation level (poc, and later pls), there's the mechanism for reading deps.proto
22:08 masak that's what I need to implement now :)
22:08 tadzik oh, I see
22:08 masak s/dependency/dependencies/
22:08 tadzik you can steal it from neutro, it quite works there :)
22:09 masak does neutro solve it differently from proto?
22:09 tadzik http://github.com/tadzik/neu​tro/blob/master/neutro#L102
22:09 tadzik I don't think so
22:09 guidj0s joined #perl6
22:09 masak I love that name, btw. :)
22:09 masak and I'm slightly intrigued that proto keeps on not dying. :)
22:10 guidj0s guys, I think i've asked this before, but how do i create subroutine references in perl6?
22:10 tadzik Su-Shee figured out the name :)
22:10 tadzik guidj0s: my $a = sub {}
22:10 guidj0s tadzik: do they all have to be anonymous?
22:10 masak rakudo: my $a = sub { say "OH HAI" }; $a()
22:10 p6eval rakudo 3a339e: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
22:10 tadzik guidj0s: I don't think so, but not sure
22:10 masak guidj0s: no, you can do my $a = &foo, too
22:11 guidj0s or is there something like my $subref = \subname();
22:11 guidj0s oh
22:11 guidj0s right
22:11 guidj0s nice, thanks!
22:11 masak no problemo.
22:11 drake1 left #perl6
22:11 x3nU submited new euler solution to perl6-examples but it's slow
22:11 tadzik it was initially named protominus :)
22:12 x3nU i mean seriously slow
22:12 tadzik In Rakudo you can _really_ see how important is optimizing the algorithm itself :)
22:13 masak or the underlying substrate.
22:13 mrsaturns left #perl6
22:13 x3nU for example code for same problem that i found in the net written in vbscript executes in 8 seconds
22:13 x3nU mine - few hours
22:13 x3nU ;d
22:13 masak x3nU: I often have similar results.
22:13 spq1 left #perl6
22:13 masak speed is an issue in Rakudo.
22:13 tylercurtis tadzik: ooc, what are Mushrooms?
22:14 szbalint something you eat with Pasta.
22:14 * tylercurtis has a bit of a Mushroom-like attitude for some values of Pasta.
22:14 tadzik tylercurtis: oh well, I promised myself not to explain, but this is Perl6, one big family ;) It's Python, sadly
22:15 tylercurtis Although that's more just that I personally can't stand cooking with some pastas.
22:15 * tadzik is sad how no one noticed the Parrot joke
22:15 patrickas tadziki felt it was a bit cruel :-O
22:16 guidj0s left #perl6
22:16 tadzik patrickas: what exactly?
22:16 tadzik cooking a Parrot?
22:16 patrickas for some reason I kept imagining the a poor parrot being cooked alive!
22:17 patrickas somethigin must be wrong with ME! :-)
22:18 tadzik well, the parrot guys seem to... Smoke Parrots!
22:18 tadzik that's... unusual
22:18 Getty parrot - he doesnt die on smoke test ;)
22:18 tadzik :D
22:19 Getty why i must think of the crazy dude from police academy now, that dude who was sitting longer in the chemical warfare test and said "got some more of this stuff? its awesome!"
22:19 patrickas he pins for the fjords :-)
22:19 dju left #perl6
22:20 masak mst thinks that Pascal's Triangle makes Perl 6 a research project: http://twitter.com/shadowc​at_mst/status/22112066276
22:21 patrickas masak: we were discussing this a bit earlier
22:21 sorear masak: I think that's mstspeak for "innovative"
22:21 masak maybe.
22:21 * masak keeps on backlogging
22:22 am0c^ joined #perl6
22:22 szbalint pretty much, sorear. DBIx::Class was a "research project"
22:22 patrickas I suppose there is no reason why it can't be both...
22:23 patrickas Besides if the series op and meta ops are too researchy for one's taste ... one can always do without
22:23 sorear and then there's the Haskell slogan - "Avoid success at all costs"
22:26 pyrimidine left #perl6
22:26 masak it's a strange thing to pick on. Rosettacode asked how to solve that problem, and Perl 6 happened to solve it nicely. would Perl 6 have been less of a 'research project' if it were also good for production things?
22:27 mberends joined #perl6
22:28 tadzik I think the people might be like “well, interesting, but who would use it?”
22:29 patrickas "who would use the series op ?"
22:30 tadzik don't ask me
22:31 masak the series op is sometimes a nice shorthand for a loop or recursion.
22:31 masak as with everything else, there are pros and cons.
22:31 patrickas I must have mis spoke
22:31 bjarneh left #perl6
22:32 sftp left #perl6
22:32 patrickas To me the question is almost obvious
22:32 masak patrickas: ah, but that might be because you're a researcher :)
22:33 patrickas Am I ?
22:33 Trashlord joined #perl6
22:33 patrickas I don't know .. mabye
22:33 Juerd masak: Obviously, outputting the pascal "triangle" as a serialised array of arrays is what makes it look like a research thing
22:34 Juerd masak: It needs a production grade real-world interface... i.e. fancy output :P
22:34 masak Juerd: huh. I thought mst was reacting against the example, or the code.
22:34 Juerd I have no idea :)
22:35 * Juerd isn't being serious at all
22:35 * masak suspected that :)
22:35 patrickas I suppose 140 chars arent enough for everything :-)
22:35 masak well, mst has been known to say 'research language' about Perl 6 before.
22:35 barika left #perl6
22:35 dju joined #perl6
22:36 patrickas Well there is some truth to that ... In the sense that it is much easier for perl6 to explore new grounds
22:36 szbalint does "make" for rakudo support -j8 or something like that? I'm currently compiling it on a 8 core box + HT.
22:36 patrickas but that does not prevent it or lessen its production value
22:37 masak patrickas: indeed.
22:37 mberends moritz_: in your Pascal post, was gaol a freudian typo?
22:37 masak mberends: go directly to gaol, do not collect whatever dollars. :)
22:38 sorear szbalint: yes, but the largest single step will only run on one core, so it won't help *much*
22:38 mberends :)
22:39 szbalint I see. :) It didn't take long anyway. I think I'll install every new rakudo release on the $job dev servers from now on.
22:40 masak also, this: http://twitter.com/pedromelo/status/22110965152 -- has been retweeted twice so far with "+1" in both RTs.
22:41 masak apparently, this is something that people feel strongly about.
22:42 szbalint The example is scary because it looks like golf, while it isn't really. People are just unfamiliar with the constructs.
22:42 masak personally, as a working hypothesis, I think people had a brain parser syntax error, looked at the code with fresh eyes, and thought "wtf?"
22:42 dju left #perl6
22:42 * sorear laughs at the ... yada comment
22:42 barika joined #perl6
22:43 sorear (Perl 5 stole ... yada yada from 6)
22:44 masak sorear: it's quite funny.
22:44 masak sorear: it also shows that people in general don't consider operators and terms to be different.
22:46 dju joined #perl6
22:47 flatwhatson left #perl6
22:47 dalek niecza: 2667d2b | sorear++ | src/Niecza/Actions.pm:
22:47 dalek niecza: Fix '\W' failing
22:47 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/2​667d2bd1df9b68f70089e90020ae92cea27f15e
22:47 dalek niecza: 6cc2651 | sorear++ | / (7 files):
22:47 dalek niecza: Implement character classes
22:47 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/6​cc26515a34088f499c3cbbdcb293b49ff50a202
22:48 sorear perl 1 had / as both division and regex starter
22:49 masak Perl 1 had regexes?
22:49 sorear yes
22:50 _macdaddy joined #perl6
22:50 bjarneh joined #perl6
22:51 masak hm, ISTR hearing at YAPC::EU that there was something fundamentally Perlish that Perl 1 didn't have. thought that was regexes. maybe I recall it wrong, though.
22:51 patrickas those 37 characters contain 4 new concepts that one needs to grasp before understanding it: pointy blocks / meta ops / series op / whatever, no wonder it is hard to digest :-)
22:52 tadzik it's funny to see how a reddit post is first 100% liked with 7 upvotes, and then becomes 0% liked :)
22:53 * revdiablo is always amused by perl 5 folks criticizing perl 6 for hairy syntax. Pot, kettle, etc.
22:54 masak it's not so much hairy syntax as syntax that takes some time getting used to.
22:54 patrickas I don't think it's hairy syntax per se, it's just "things I am not familiar with"
22:54 revdiablo It's pretty hairy. =)
22:54 revdiablo That's not meant as a criticism
22:56 masak I tend to find Perl 6's syntax quite clean and readable. but I'm aware that I might not think so if I saw it for the first time.
22:56 masak if that's your definition of "hairy", then we are in agreement. :)
22:57 * patrickas is open to the possibility that maybe all the people who think dense syntax and many operators are bad or will hurt perl are right...
22:57 patrickas I suppose we'll find out in a few years / decades ... and maybe build perl7 accordingly :-)
22:58 dju_ joined #perl6
22:58 szbalint For years you could write C in Perl. Now you can write Haskell too :)
22:58 * szbalint ducks
22:58 szbalint But you don't have to.
22:58 patrickas but I want tooooo :-)
22:58 dju left #perl6
22:58 guidj0s joined #perl6
22:58 masak Perl 6 has sweet spots that differ from the sweet spots of Perl 5. it's all about what things to make easy. having written Perl 6 code actively for two years now, I can say I really, really like the sweet spots provided by Perl 6.
22:59 masak they might not be apparent at first, but they're there, and they're good.
23:00 flatwhatson joined #perl6
23:00 masak they're not exemplified well by TimToady++'s code for Pascal's triangle. they're exemplified well by the programmer facing such a problem, thinking it through, writing out the solution and OH WOW IT WORKS WOW YES THIS ROCKS
23:00 revdiablo masak: I really like perl 6 too, but just like perl 5, it's very punctuation oriented. I think that turns a lot of people off. But I also think perl 5 people should be accustomed to a punctuation oriented language
23:01 masak all in a fairly small amount of natural language primitives.
23:01 masak revdiablo: Perl 5 people are accustomed to Perl 5. that tends to put them off too Perl6-y stuff, sometimes.
23:02 masak maybe if they had a series operator, and pointy blocks, and lazy lists, they wouldn't think much of the Pascal example. then it'd be "yeah, so what? we have that too" :)
23:03 masak now it's "my golly, that's abstraction-laden. research project! this is what I hope Perl 6 *won't* become. why did you optimize for Pascal's triangle?"
23:04 revdiablo Sure, that's my thought as well. They're reacting to something because of a lack of familiarity. But I thought perl people would be more willing to accept such things
23:04 revdiablo I mean, perl 5 still surprises me on a regular basis. It has been for 10 years. I'm used to being surprised now. Perl 6 just feels like a continuation of that =)
23:06 * tylercurtis would link Paul Graham if his relevant essays were less condescending-sounding.
23:06 dalek 6model: e0399b0 | ++ | java/runtime/ (6 files):
23:06 dalek 6model: [java/runtime] begin resolving circular dependencies from RakudoObject to SharedTable
23:06 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/e​0399b08c031d7ce8830d9dd48c6dccb3585e80d
23:07 sorear masak: back in the good old days, there was quite a bit of hating on C because of unreadable punctuation constructs like { }, ;, and &&
23:08 masak sorear: good thing there were digraphs that you could use instead. <snicker />
23:08 sorear no, digraphs are C++
23:08 lestrrat is now known as lest_away
23:08 sorear C used trigraphs, which were even uglier
23:09 masak oh wow.
23:09 sorear < - [: or ??[
23:11 guidj0s left #perl6
23:11 masak that's... the most desperate syntax I've seen in quite a while.
23:12 dalek niecza: 6c3c243 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
23:12 dalek niecza: Implement /a || b/
23:12 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/6​c3c243f8ab95c9a5ce53bbf928594dad7ebd3d4
23:13 sekimura_ joined #perl6
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23:22 aesop is now known as jacob_applebaum
23:25 am0c^ left #perl6
23:27 masak tadzik++ # http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/20​10/08/25/on-the-language-wars/
23:28 tadzik I'm glad you like it
23:31 masak I like allegories. yours was a good read.
23:32 patrickas left #perl6
23:32 au|irc tadzik++ # that blogpost can use an illustration like http://www.realsimple.com/food-recipe​s/browse-all-recipes/pasta-tomato-mus​hroom-sauce-10000001107116/index.html :)
23:35 osfameron masak: O HAI.  We're still missing a talk auth from you I think?  (You sent for Prince of Parsea, but not for Perl6 appetizers)
23:36 tadzik au|irc: I'd stick some Parrot together :P
23:37 au|irc :)
23:38 masak tadzik: ooh, slight grammar-o at the end "are always bad" should be "is always bad", because the copula refers to the action of shoving, not to the throats.
23:38 masak osfameron: oh! thought the latter wasn't filmed.
23:38 masak osfameron: tell me what to do, and I'll do it.
23:39 osfameron masak: that was in the auditorium?  I think peppe is in process of transferring those (but you're on the list he gave me to chase, so I *hope* it comes across OK ;-)
23:39 masak if auth here is enough, you have it. if auth by email is enough, I'll send one.
23:40 osfameron masak: another email to yapc-info@perl.it would be brilliant!
23:40 * masak makes it so
23:40 osfameron masak++ # thanks
23:40 tadzik masak++ # fixed-faxe
23:40 tadzik d
23:42 masak left #perl6
23:43 sftp joined #perl6
23:43 masak joined #perl6
23:44 lue hello o/
23:44 tadzik hello and bye :)
23:45 tadzik left #perl6
23:47 sftp left #perl6
23:48 sftp joined #perl6
23:49 masak lue: you know what would be cool? writing a game such as http://svn.pugscode.org/pug​s/examples/games/wizard.pl but with monsters' abilities and such being added using role mixins.
23:49 masak lue: $monster does FireBreathing;
23:50 lue $titularwizard does Everything;
23:51 masak $exit does MoveUnpredictably; # :)
23:54 masak and now, slightly more predictably, masak doth sleep.
23:54 masak 'night, butterflies.
23:55 masak left #perl6

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