Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-09-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: 7188f73 | pmichaud++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: Initial version of trait_mod:is and "is pirflags" trait for subs.
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/7188f73601c673c950b5f20f484e12928cfcdbd7
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: f3dabb7 | pmichaud++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: Add traits to method definitions.
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/f3dabb701a266333e448ed2307f482ed7314e373
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: 95acd86 | pmichaud++ | t/nqp/52-vtable.t:
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: Add tests for "is pirflags<:vtable(...)>".
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/95acd86bffd22fecd55ac4f6bb5c8e6ab1553720
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: e528a3d | pmichaud++ | t/nqp/52-vtable.t:
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: Oops.  Failing to plan() is like planning to fail().
00:03 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/e528a3d0d0529d801a078f8e98d4ac725ff2f036
00:03 sorear hello pmichaud
00:12 dalek niecza: d8c7d65 | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
00:12 dalek niecza: Add a hook to profile name lookups
00:12 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/d8c7d6565fca601c9a553baec7fc5f58b1054678
00:12 dalek niecza: e893836 | sorear++ | / (5 files):
00:12 dalek niecza: Tidy up MOP a bit
00:12 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/e893836a1c42b9f59b92ccffe82739e0814b4c81
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00:31 dalek niecza: 63628e6 | sorear++ | lib/ (4 files):
00:31 dalek niecza: Generate slot mappings at compose time
00:31 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/63628e6c029da1beed44936dda1d04c4a19bbd7b
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00:33 sorear interesting; going from the 60k to 600k test file made memory use out of control
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00:54 diakopter std: my $a = return 4
00:54 p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
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01:20 mfollett the latest revision of master doesn't compile for me.
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01:23 diakopter does anyone have a graph [any kind/arrangement/projection] of the Perl 6 type system
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01:36 dalek nqp-rx: 129c25b | pmichaud++ | examples/json.nqp:
01:36 dalek nqp-rx: Add json.nqp, an example of a JSON compiler written entirely in NQP.
01:36 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/129c25b48e4dbb8c9fe355ce8f8a578be067f3d3
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01:45 TomDLux rakudo: my $set is KeySet; $set{$_}++ for 1..5; $set{$_}-- for 2..4; say $set.keys
01:45 p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'trait_mod:<is>'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu $child, Role $r)␤:(Routine $r, Any :default($default)!)␤:(Code $block, Any $arg?, Any :export($export)!)␤:(Mu $child, Mu $parent)␤:(Mu $type where ({ ... }), Any :rw($rw)!)␤:(Mu
01:45 p6eval ..$type…
01:46 TomDLux rakudo: my %set is KeySet; %set{$_}++ for 1..5; %set{$_}-- for 2..4; say %set.keys
01:46 p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'trait_mod:<is>'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu $child, Role $r)␤:(Routine $r, Any :default($default)!)␤:(Code $block, Any $arg?, Any :export($export)!)␤:(Mu $child, Mu $parent)␤:(Mu $type where ({ ... }), Any :rw($rw)!)␤:(Mu
01:46 p6eval ..$type…
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01:55 TomDLux I thought "is KeySet" was working, but I'm finding keys remain in existence even when they are set to false .. and p6eval totally barfs on 'is KeySet'
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03:27 lichtkind had pugs a MOP ?
03:30 mfollett Is there a known good revision of proto that someone would recommend?
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03:37 dukeleto lichtkind: what do you mean?
03:37 dukeleto lichtkind: there is something called SMOP, http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop
03:37 lichtkind i know
03:38 lichtkind i mean if pugs had implemented a meta object protocoll
03:38 lichtkind to do its OOP stuff
03:38 lichtkind SMOP has definetivly a MOP
03:39 lichtkind but that was developed largly independet of CLASS::MOP
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03:39 dukeleto lichtkind: yep
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03:48 dukeleto perl6: say @_[0].WHAT
03:48 p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in can()␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
03:48 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«Scalar␤»
03:48 dukeleto does that rakudobug exist already ?
04:11 Util_ http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Reduced_row_echelon_form - Outstanding bugs fixed to existing Perl 6 solution, and 2 new math-based solutions added; procedural and OO.
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04:42 mfollett Am I doing something seriously wrong or does the HEAD of proto and the version of proto shipped with Rakudo * 2010-08 both not successfully install modules?  I suspect I'm doing something wrong.
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05:06 sorear good * #perl6
05:06 sorear mfollett: I suspect the module you're trying to install is an alpha-only module
05:07 * sorear has figured out niecza's grammar memory problem o/
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05:18 masak oh hai, #perl6!
05:18 sorear hello masak
05:20 * sorear entertains thoughts of butchering druids
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05:21 masak butchering druids?
05:22 sorear yeah, i think a standalone Druid.exe would make a nice niecza showpiece
05:22 masak indeed.
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05:23 masak at the point you have all the functionality required to run Druid, I will seriously consider switching to niecza for many of my everyday tasks.
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05:24 sorear unmodified? :)
05:24 mfollett sorear:  It appears to be a combination of me doing it wrong and what might be a bug, or me doing it even more wrong.  It appears I need a projects.list and a projects.cache in my working directory.
05:25 mfollett As for what I was doing wrong, it turns out I had misconfigured my proto.conf.
05:25 masak sorear: 'unmodified' is unfortunately too idealistic right now, even on the Druid end.
05:25 masak sorear: the only working branch only works on alpha.
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05:53 pmichaud what's missing for Druid to run in rakudo star, ooc?
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05:58 * tylercurtis has managed to forget his feather password within an hour of setting it.
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06:05 sorear tylercurtis: msg me a new one
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06:09 masak pmichaud: Druid used a fair number of alpha-specific regex features. in particular, I had separated out a number of bare rules into a base class. those call each other and return a neat little $/ tree of results. that doesn't work at all on Rakudo master.
06:11 masak specifically, there's no way for bare rules to call each other. and it's not possible to mimic the old structure, because nested keys aren't implemented.
06:11 sorear "bare rules"?
06:11 masak rules outside of grammars.
06:12 sorear if that ever worked, it was a bug
06:12 masak you need my/our before them nowadays. then it works.
06:12 sorear "has" rules
06:12 masak but they still can't call each other.
06:12 sorear need to be in a subclass of Cursor
06:13 masak I know, I know.
06:13 sorear Why can't they call each other?
06:13 masak because something is not implemented, I guess.
06:13 sorear How are you trying to call them?
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06:14 sorear And why are they in a base class?
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06:14 pmichaud masak: are they in a source file where I could see them, ooc?
06:14 masak pmichaud: the old ones?
06:14 * sorear considers inheritance harmful in almost all cases
06:14 masak sorear: trying to call them from each other.
06:14 masak sorear: thanks for the advice.
06:14 sorear masak: but how
06:15 * masak fetches the source URL
06:15 sorear wait, I have a druid master checkout
06:15 masak http://github.com/masak/druid/blob/master/lib/Druid/Base.pm
06:16 masak uuuh, that's not right. those changes should be restricted to the ng-compat branch.
06:16 pmichaud why can't that easily become a grammar instead of a class?  Or are there other connections?
06:17 masak pmichaud: I don't know, I haven't re-thunk the design yet.
06:17 pmichaud masak: okay.
06:19 masak hm, false alarm. that's the latest Druid-for-alpha code.
06:19 pmichaud okay.
06:19 masak phew.
06:20 masak right. observe lines 5-7. those are bare regexes *without* my/our. that's illegal now. but note especially line 7. it calls the regexes on lines 5 and 6. that doesn't work on Rakudo master.
06:21 masak oh, and consequently the similar calls on lines 9-10 don't work either.
06:21 pmichaud it would probably work fine if we s/class/grammar/,
06:21 pmichaud getting 9-10 to work will be... challenging, yes.
06:21 masak ok.
06:21 pmichaud probably need to switch some of them to &coords
06:21 masak I can do s/class/grammar/, that seems feasible.
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06:22 masak pmichaud: will &coords still create a $<coords> entry?
06:22 pmichaud <coords=&coords>
06:22 masak ok.
06:23 pmichaud and declare the regexes as 'our', then.
06:23 pmichaud (so they appear in the namespace)
06:24 sorear My 2¢ is to change Druid::Base to module Druid::Common and export my regexes
06:24 sorear I'll look into this while beating it into working on niecza
06:25 pmichaud back tomorrow -- gotta run out to the store for some milk
06:25 masak nice! http://twitter.com/meraxes/status/24040386254
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06:25 masak I'll look into making Druid work again on master.
06:25 masak maybe even this weekend.
06:25 pmichaud masak++
06:26 pmichaud let me know if you need anything :)
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06:26 pmichaud I'm slowly working on the backlog of bugs
06:27 * masak is slowly adding new ones :)
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06:28 tylercurtis Does &.foo impose a context?
06:40 sorear &.foo hasn't been defined
06:41 sorear ditto &$foo
06:42 masak how realistic is a perl5-to-perl6 converter nowadays? would it be a selling point for Perl 5 people who hesitate about learning Perl 6?
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06:44 jnthn morning, #perl6
06:44 pmichaud jnthn: /o
06:44 pmichaud er,  o/
06:44 tylercurtis Morning, jnthn.
06:44 pmichaud (I'm tired, so my arm drooped :)
06:44 jnthn Well, I do sometimes cause people to scratch their head... :-)
06:45 pmichaud and I still need to get to the store but I'm too busy bisecting for a parrot bug
06:45 jnthn ugh
06:45 jnthn Which bug/
06:45 pmichaud this one is interesting
06:45 masak phenny: tell moritz_ s/whom can inherit/who can inherit/. when in doubt, use 'who', not 'whom'.
06:45 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
06:46 pmichaud it appears that in recent versions of Parrot, it selects the String PMC .trans method even for Rakudo Str objects
06:46 masak huh
06:46 jnthn ugh
06:46 pmichaud just a sec and I can paste :)
06:46 jnthn Well, I can only offer than in a couple more months we won't be using the String PMC... :-)
06:47 pmichaud oh?
06:47 jnthn Doesn't make much sense.
06:47 jnthn Same for Integer PMC
06:47 pmichaud we'll have our own PMC types, then?
06:47 jnthn We'll have a repr for the native types
06:47 jnthn (I think.)
06:48 pmichaud > my $x = 'a'; say PARROT($x); $x.trans('a' => 'b');
06:48 pmichaud Perl6Scalar->Str
06:48 pmichaud too few positional arguments: 2 passed, 3 (or more) expected
06:48 pmichaud Yes, $x *is a Str*
06:48 jnthn :S
06:48 pmichaud I'm wondering if a method cache is being lost somewhere.
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06:48 jnthn Possibly.
06:48 pmichaud I also thought it might be that $x isn't p6opaque... but I manually added in p6opaqueness and that didn't seem to change anything.
06:49 jnthn Well, that'd change the dispatcher that is used.
06:50 pmichaud anyway, I have a good commit and a bad commit, so it's time to bisect :)
06:51 jnthn Yes, hopefully that gives the answer. :-)
06:51 pmichaud I went through it once and it didn't seem to work, so I'm trying again.
06:51 pmichaud I might've missed a step or put in a bad message
06:52 pmichaud s/message/result/
06:52 sorear masak: 5to6 now is a very interesting problem.  ingy probably has some ideas, 5to6 is going to face a lot of the same issues as c'dent
06:52 masak sorear: oh, indeed. I haven't considered that.
06:52 masak sorear: I've looked at it from the viewpoint of TimToady's STD5 module.
06:54 sorear B or PPI are probably more solid foundations for a standalone conversion tool (as opposed to lexical use v5;)
06:55 * sorear wonders how hard it would be to put together B::JSON
06:57 jnthn Wow, mberends++ made a nice ASCII art dependency diagram for 6model :-)
07:03 moritz_ good morning
07:03 phenny moritz_: 06:45Z <masak> tell moritz_ s/whom can inherit/who can inherit/. when in doubt, use 'who', not 'whom'.
07:04 masak good mo', mo'
07:04 jnthn Or just never use whom.
07:04 jnthn It's dying.
07:04 * masak .oO( 6model has an ASCII art dependency? )
07:05 jnthn masak: :P
07:05 masak jnthn: I just love the accusative in all its forms. but I agree, 'whom' is dying.
07:05 jnthn Netcraft confirms it.
07:05 moritz_ well, German has accusative too, and I don't see why I shouldn't use it in the general case
07:06 masak moritz_: since German has the accusitve, I'm especially surprised that you chose to use it on the subject of a phrase.
07:07 masak s/it/'whom'/
07:10 masak see also http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1353 :)
07:13 jnthn om nom nom chokladbollar
07:14 jnthn .oO( not a typical breakfast food... )
07:15 masak :)
07:16 dukeleto perl6: Failure + 2
07:16 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&Failure"␤    at /tmp/ZjIT54jrwf line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
07:16 p6eval ..rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Method 'Bridge' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in 'infix:<+>' at line 3515:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/kEuSouVayG␤»
07:16 dukeleto is that a known rakudobug?
07:18 sorear it's known LTA
07:19 sorear it is, afaict, correct
07:19 sorear but colomon++ would be the one to know
07:22 dukeleto LTA?
07:22 jnthn Less Than Wesome
07:22 jnthn *Awesome
07:23 * dukeleto is enlightened
07:24 dukeleto i would expect a Failure who hasn't had .Bool or .defined on it to trigger an exception, but perhaps + triggers a .defined check?
07:25 pmichaud we still have some issues with the Failure implementation
07:25 pmichaud but I'm not sure how the type object should behave in this case.  Probably like any other type object, though.
07:25 dukeleto i am noticing a bunch of spectests fail on rakudo master. is this expected?
07:26 dukeleto perl6: ~Failure
07:26 p6eval rakudo 859f2d:  ( no output )
07:26 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&Failure"␤    at /tmp/UE7qihWVDH line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
07:26 pmichaud dukeleto: what revision of parrot are you using?
07:26 dukeleto pmichaud: i used --gen-parrot
07:26 masak pmichaud: do you perchance recall the etymology of "strangely consistent"? because that's the name of my new blog.
07:27 pmichaud dukeleto: say $*VM<config><revision>
07:27 dukeleto pmichaud: 48768
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07:30 pmichaud dukeleto: I don't know then.  It should be passing spectests at that revision.
07:30 pmichaud masak: I don't recall, but I'm looking through the #perl6 logs
07:31 masak pmichaud: I did that yesterday. found no real clues that way.
07:31 masak pmichaud: here's what I remember. it was at YAPC::EU 2009, in the big assembly hall, on the Tuesday.
07:31 pmichaud first irc log reference I can find is http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-03-31#i_1030097
07:31 masak pmichaud: either you coined the phrase, or I did.
07:32 masak pmichaud: yes, I found that one too. I'm not sure if that reference counts. it looks too innocent.
07:32 pmichaud agreed
07:32 masak only after YAPC::EU is the phrase used with intent.
07:32 pmichaud anyway, istr it was at yapc::eu, and I remember you being taken with the phrase.  I don't remember the context in which it arose.
07:32 masak I liked it well enough to include it in the Web talk on the Wednesday.
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07:33 pmichaud I'm wondering if it came out of the Rakudo BOF
07:33 pmichaud (which was on Tue, iirc)
07:33 masak no, it was before that on the Tuesday.
07:33 pmichaud hmmm
07:33 masak the BOF wasn't in the assembly hall.
07:33 pmichaud well, my memory is toast :)
07:33 masak no worried. just thought I'd ask.
07:33 pmichaud anyway, whatever story you come up with I'm likely to agree with :)
07:34 masak I think you came up with the phrase, and I liked it. :)
07:34 pmichaud That would be indeed strangely consistent.  :)
07:34 masak today's autopun, brought to you by pmichaud. :)
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07:35 * masak .oO( when you execute an autopun with a deadpan expression, is it called an "autopan"? or a "deadpun expression"? )
07:37 moritz_ masak: (re accusative) I attribute it to my sleepiness
07:38 moritz_ masak: and I agree it's a misuse (and corrected it)
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07:38 masak moritz_: goodie. I liked the post, by the way.
07:39 dukeleto pmichaud: i am going to rm -rf my parrot_install dir and do a realclean, i think i forgot that.
07:40 sorear how not to allocate a bitfield: new int[bitCount]
07:42 dukeleto should #?pugs lines exist in perl6/roast.git ?
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07:42 sorear yes
07:42 sorear they're just fudges
07:42 sorear pugs is an implementation too
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07:44 dalek niecza: 368485d | sorear++ | lib/Cursor.cs:
07:44 dalek niecza: Store backtrack frames in a single object each
07:44 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/368485d8374fa166ac6acf87890e8a73f4e8a06c
07:44 dalek niecza: 940874c | sorear++ | lib/Cursor.cs:
07:44 dalek niecza: Fix LexerState stupidly using 32x correct memory
07:44 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/940874c2ee309a69355818e9f0cc4227b43b5127
07:49 dukeleto sorear: of course, just wondering
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07:56 moritz_ masak: glad you liked it. Do you agree? or do you still want protected in p6?
07:56 moritz_ dukeleto: I usually leave the #?pugs lines, but I don't make much effort to maintain them
07:57 dukeleto perl6: say /42/.perl
07:57 masak sorear: [backlog] Druid uses type constraints all over the place. but usually things work without the type checks they represent.
07:57 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«{regex}␤»
07:57 p6eval ..rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤»
07:57 dukeleto seems like Regex objects don't know how to do .perl in Rakudo
07:57 masak moritz_: I'm not sure I ever wanted 'protected' in p6. my colleague asked about it once, and that's when I started a p6l thread about it.
07:57 TimToady here's my entry for intentional FP-style obfuscation: see 2nd part of http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Constrained_Random_Points_on_a_Circle#Perl_6
08:01 dukeleto TimToady: that is pretty awesome
08:02 TimToady that's probably about as close as we get to APL
08:03 TimToady at least in terms of reading everything right-to-left
08:04 TimToady funny thing is, I can grok any one bit of it as long as I don't look at the rest of it at the same time.  :)
08:04 huf what's the dot in  ~.map ? :)
08:04 TimToady "unary dot"
08:04 TimToady means ~ $_.map
08:05 huf oh!
08:05 TimToady .oO(behold the power of this fully functional Death Star)
08:06 TimToady it only *look*s half constructed...
08:06 pmichaud "You may fire at will, Commander."
08:06 pmichaud (I always wonder if that's "will" or "Will"  :)
08:07 TimToady I think where there is a Will, he is away.
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08:08 pmichaud I notice there's no "Works with Rakudo XXX" line there... is that because it doesn't?  ;-)
08:08 TimToady it works with HEAD, at least
08:09 TimToady at least, as of last time I compiled it
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08:10 TimToady but for a pleasant change, I don't recall having to work around any bugs this time
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08:10 huf hmm, i think i have a rough understanding of that snippet
08:10 huf but i dont know the word for how awesome it is :)
08:11 TimToady negatives don't go that low, eh?  :)
08:11 huf hey! you're not supposed to be pessimistic
08:11 TimToady it really was generated via step-by-step transformation from the previous example
08:12 huf you're saying this isnt code we should see in production?
08:12 masak TimToady: that's the most Haskell-like Perl 6 code I've ever seen. kudos.
08:12 TimToady depends on how many people you work with that have IQs of 220
08:12 huf but... a haskell programmer can write haskell in any language ;)
08:13 TimToady I was particularly happy about using given to define a variable declared in the first clause :)
08:14 TimToady sort of a cargo-culted Haskell 'where'
08:14 masak aye. never seen that idiom before.
08:14 masak this rosetta code thing is a gold mine. :)
08:14 masak TimToady++
08:17 TimToady I think I'd better go to bed before I do any more damage to the credibility of Perl 6...
08:18 TimToady or perhaps it's crudability now
08:18 moritz_ sleep well TimToady++
08:18 TimToady zzz &
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08:20 masak dream of cargo-culted Haskell idioms. :)
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08:29 pmichaud 08:10 <TimToady> but for a pleasant change, I don't recall having to work around any bugs this time
08:29 pmichaud that sounds like a good milestone.  :)
08:30 sorear parse 60kb of JSON -> 2.95 seconds
08:30 sorear parse 600kb -> OOM
08:30 sorear *something* is not right here
08:30 pmichaud makes me glad that I fixed statement_modifier:<for>  :)
08:32 sorear ?
08:32 pmichaud (for TimToady's code)
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08:38 sorear interesting, mono is 50% faster with --gc=sgen
08:41 tylercurtis Good night, #perl6.
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08:45 smash mornin' everyone
08:46 dalek niecza: a10d7a2 | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
08:46 dalek niecza: Elide containers for readonly Variables
08:46 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/a10d7a241eb6b90726f37cf5cc2487754cab9519
08:46 dalek niecza: d076f11 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
08:46 dalek niecza: Create array descriptors in regexes once
08:46 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/d076f1190437d469c0760e6dbe7269c1fabbe3b1
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08:49 smash http://gil.di.uminho.pt/users/smash/rakudo-bench.html updated
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08:51 sorear is: self := 5; reasonable?
08:52 sorear you can rebind any explicit parameter
08:52 moritz_ I'm pretty sure self has a type constraint
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09:04 masak two OSDC.fr talks submitted: "Hard core bug reporting" and "Perl 6: there's some madness to the method after all"
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09:17 smash cleaned up List::Utils.transpose a bit (http://github.com/colomon/List-Utils/commit/4878de0a0b1102687bd76a5a96e8db8a3721e0fa#diff-1) more suggestions welcome
09:18 huf i find people have really odd misconceptions about readability
09:18 huf someone smarter than me could make a good blogpost out of this
09:19 masak here's a "shot on sight" opinion that I don't understand: http://twitter.com/erez/status/24090023075
09:19 pmichaud I found the bug in parrot trunk that is causing Str.trans to fail.... will fix it after sleep though.
09:20 sorear I think readability is partly not a function of code length
09:20 sorear sublinear
09:20 masak pmichaud++
09:20 sorear if I have 100 lines of PIR to do a job, or 10 lines of Perl6, there will be a less-than-10fold difference in reading time
09:21 sorear so by a naive interpretation the PIR is "more readable"
09:22 huf i think length matters a lot. if an expression is short enough that i can see it from start to finish without moving my eyes around, it's easier to read
09:22 huf but what my point actually is is that readability is almost entirely subjective, yet almsot everyone likes to pretend it's an objective measurement
09:23 masak there's some point at which I'd gauge compression/golfing as hurting readability.
09:23 huf true, there's a line
09:23 huf but the topic's just another vi vs emacs flame, except people dont seem to realize it yet
09:23 pmichaud masak: I don't understand the "shot on sight" opinion either.
09:23 sorear compression almost never helps readability
09:24 sorear readability is a function of essential complexity
09:24 sorear the difference between refactoring and golfing is that, I think
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09:26 szbalint pmichaud: maybe the person doesn't think that the P6 features backported to P5 are really backports?
09:26 huf sorear: it's rare tho that a more constrained form is longer (i mean in the sense that @a = map @b is more readable since there's less surprises that could happen than in the equivalent push @a, ... for @b)
09:28 masak huf: that sounds like the "number of primitives" measure of Arc fame.
09:28 sorear it's not just number of primitives, it's also applicability of primitives
09:29 sorear two values which have the same linguistic representation might still be different in the reader's mind
09:29 sorear and the cost of the resulting unwritten coercion cannot be discounted
09:29 huf hmm?
09:29 sorear like the J code for spiral matrices
09:31 sorear turning a spiral matrix, into a row-major 1d list, then feeding that through a Burroughs-Wheeler-like transform, creates several very expensive mental coercions
09:31 sorear even though it's just a handful of characters
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09:34 huf sorear: that depends heavily on what kind of manipulations you consider basic
09:34 huf which is in turn shaped by all the languages you've used
09:34 sorear no, no
09:34 sorear that's not what I mean at all
09:35 sorear since you seem to be distracted by the complexity of the BWT, try x & (x - 1)
09:35 sorear this is a very basic operation on bit vectors
09:35 sorear but in order to understand it, you have to see it as x & integer2bitvec(bitvec2integer(x) - 1)
09:36 sorear so it's much harder to grasp than x * (x - 1), even though it uses the same number and complexity of primitives
09:36 huf but say you use a language that has a unary operator for x & (x-1) ;)
09:37 huf use it for a few years and suddenly it's a basic operation in your head
09:37 huf and you no longer think about bitvec->int conversions at all
09:37 florz you totally do
09:37 sorear again you are missing the point
09:37 florz for that's the point of the idiom =:-)
09:38 sorear the readability of x * y does not depend on the readability of the microcode that implements addition
09:38 sorear or multiplication for that matter
09:38 sorear the readability of %x, likewise, has absolutely nothing to do with the readability of x & (x - 1) or whatever else it expands into
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09:43 huf sorear: but if you call it ispow2(x) it's suddenly really easy and you dont have to think about any of that at all
09:43 sorear huf: That's exactly what I just said
09:45 huf then i dont get what you're saying, sorry
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09:53 masak lunch &
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10:05 brxue hello, is perl6 coming soon?
10:05 sjohnson masak: whats for lunch?
10:06 sjohnson brxue: just around the corner!
10:06 sjohnson the devs here have been putting enough man hours into perl6 rakudo to move a small mountain
10:06 brxue I'm so expecting it
10:07 sjohnson you can already get rakudo perl in a working state
10:07 sjohnson but i imagine very soon, an official stable release will be announced
10:07 brxue thanks for all your guys' hard work
10:08 brxue it's so exciting
10:08 sorear pmichaud says there never will be an official release
10:09 brxue any reason?
10:10 sjohnson sorear: if not that, how bout one that will fit the needs of anyone curious about a stable perl 6 implementation?
10:11 sorear brxue: because perl6 is defined by a spec and a philosophy, there is no canonical implementation
10:11 Ross joined #perl6
10:12 brxue I reviewed perl6's tutorial, I think it's wonderful
10:12 sjohnson i'm pretty excited as well
10:13 sjohnson i use perl5 a ton
10:13 sjohnson but am really excited about the innovations in p6
10:14 sjohnson try rakudo star, you will probably enjoy it
10:16 brxue It seems Larry Wall made a presentation on O'Reilly conference about Perl6 a few months ago, but I cann't find this info from official site of perl
10:17 sjohnson he'll probably be awake in a few hours
10:19 brxue this is a URL which cover this news in chinese http://developer.51cto.com/art/201007/214223.htm
10:20 Ross left #perl6
10:20 brxue the theme of this presentation seems to be "status of onion"
10:20 Ross joined #perl6
10:21 sjohnson heh
10:21 sjohnson http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?state_of_the_onion
10:22 sjohnson your last msg should be the topic of the day
10:22 sjohnson :)
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10:22 mathw The trouble with the wiki page is that there is no content for the last few talks
10:23 mathw :(
10:23 mathw But I can't really criticise, I wasn't there to do it myself
10:24 sjohnson yeah
10:24 sjohnson do you mean the wiki for the url i just pasted, or wikipedia's perl6 link?
10:24 mathw I mean what you just pasted
10:24 sjohnson cause i found the later to be a burst of fresh air of refreshing facts and knowledge.com
10:25 sjohnson latter*
10:25 sjohnson mathw: 2009 is more recent than the others i found a few months ago, so i guess it's not too bad
10:26 sjohnson :-)
10:26 mathw 2009 is a placeholder
10:27 sjohnson DOH!
10:28 sjohnson i assumed that by the lack of content, people were too awe-struck with p6's work to say anything
10:29 mathw lol
10:29 mathw well we have R* now
10:29 mathw a shining beacon
10:29 mathw keeps me warm at night
10:29 mathw after the cat has abandoned me
10:30 sjohnson haha
10:31 sjohnson i feel guilty for not trying it
10:31 sjohnson maybe too many bad experiences with linux compilations from scratch have scarred me
10:31 sjohnson but someone here told me it isn't that bad to setup
10:31 florz it's really easy indeed, on debian lenny at least
10:31 dalek niecza: af3387d | sorear++ | / (8 files):
10:32 dalek niecza: Avoid creating throwaway containers in the binder
10:32 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/af3387de7220baa421cc24e3b70240c084c22038
10:32 dalek niecza: f9bb192 | sorear++ | src/CgOp.pm:
10:32 dalek niecza: Implement the CPS constants optimization
10:32 dalek niecza:
10:32 dalek niecza: I thought I did this weeks ago.  Weird.
10:32 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/f9bb19289c628d3ec1ebbf1dfedf440677f0d9bd
10:32 dalek niecza: 199cf9e | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
10:32 dalek niecza: Optimize Kernel.Bind et al a bit more
10:32 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/199cf9e1b821c509e4fd9ab39952215f37b7e5f3
10:34 sjohnson mathw: you're not alone.  a friends cat i babysit is pretty cute
10:34 sjohnson but scratches me often
10:35 sjohnson doesnt like snuggling either
10:36 mathw oh mine likes to snuggle
10:36 mathw but only when he's in the mood
10:36 mathw and if I fall asleep, he'll be trying to wake me up within about half an hour
10:36 mathw apparently the proper order of things is me being awake while he naps in my lap
10:36 sjohnson haha
10:37 sjohnson here's a youtube link of the cat if you wanna see a cute cat video i took
10:37 sjohnson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_HQYQgsfqc
10:37 mathw I would, but youtube is really clunky at work
10:37 icwiener joined #perl6
10:37 mathw our proxy puts it at priority -infinity
10:37 sjohnson as cute as he is, he's pretty spoiled and crashes people in your lap scenario for not cuddling him as he likes
10:37 sjohnson crashes => scratches*
10:37 mathw the cutest cat I know is also the most antisocial
10:37 mathw she'll cuddle for a little bit
10:37 mathw and then take your face off
10:38 mathw but she's an irresistably cute little furball with the most amazing tail
10:38 mathw it's so big that she's been known to chase its shadow
10:39 sjohnson mathw: next best thing:  http://imgur.com/3q36n.jpg
10:39 sjohnson screenshot i took just for you :)
10:39 mathw aaawww
10:39 mathw it's that pleading expression
10:39 sjohnson yeah
10:39 sjohnson he looks cute
10:39 sjohnson but damn that cat is mean sometimes
10:39 sjohnson you'll be petting his back
10:39 sjohnson he's enjoying it for a about 5 mins
10:40 sjohnson then without warning, instant slash with claws at your entire arm
10:40 sjohnson for whatever reason
10:40 sjohnson has happened to about 4 people so far
10:40 sjohnson and i feel sorry for them all as it hurts their feelings.  he's spoiled!
10:40 mathw http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattofwalton/3966313475/in/set-72157621820239428/ fairly typical position for mine
10:40 sjohnson perhaps the scenario you described, is the same cat syndrome for this one
10:41 sjohnson the owner jokes that he's austistic.  now it doesn't seem too far off
10:41 sjohnson tabby!!!
10:41 mathw well fortunately Rascal usually goes for you with claws retracted at first
10:41 mathw then if you don't heed the warning, the claws come out
10:41 sjohnson my mom has a cat that looks exactly like that
10:41 mathw :)
10:41 sjohnson like, exactly
10:41 mathw there's one on my street who looks quite similar
10:41 sjohnson different colour eyes, but identical nonetheless
10:41 sjohnson very cute
10:41 mathw yeah
10:41 mathw Pumba is ridiculously soppy
10:42 mathw total charmer
10:42 mathw even won over my parents and they don't even like cats
10:42 sjohnson heh
10:42 sjohnson i think i have a pic
10:42 sjohnson of my parents cat on facebook
10:42 sjohnson cause someone took a pic of it recently
10:42 mathw he also likes my sister
10:43 mathw last time she came to visit he was straight in her lap
10:43 mathw but his napping was disrupted by her giggling
10:43 mathw apparently he tickles
10:44 sjohnson heh
10:44 sjohnson thats cute
10:44 sjohnson damn
10:44 sjohnson just pics of his sunbathing
10:44 sjohnson but i have a video of him sniffing my iphone4
10:45 sjohnson so i will have to give you the url for sometime you aren't at work
10:45 sjohnson and you will appreciate how similar he looks
10:45 sjohnson sunbathing pic:  http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs257.snc4/40199_419352296447_516716447_4981742_1041853_n.jpg
10:47 mathw oh wow
10:47 mathw what a cat
10:47 mathw what a place for a cat to sunbathe
10:48 mathw Pumba would love it
10:48 mathw nice warm concrete slab
10:48 mathw lots of space to run around in
10:48 mathw I tried to take a picture of pumba nosing at my phone last night but it didn't work very well because the flash fired
10:48 mathw so it's like glaringly bright cat nose on black
10:49 sjohnson yeah it's my parents house.  very nice view in canada
10:49 sjohnson but they aren't rich, and the house is very small... but they swiped a good spot in the early 80's
10:49 sjohnson yeah
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10:49 sjohnson i have also found flashes to be very anti-cute-cat face prone
10:50 sjohnson i usually hold the camera with no flash in one hand
10:50 sjohnson and a toy to distract them in the other
10:50 sjohnson to get cute wide-eyed anime faces from them
10:50 sjohnson and not blink when a camera snaps a photo at them
10:50 sjohnson but you almost need a tripod for decent photos
10:50 mathw sometimes you get lucky though
10:51 sjohnson otherwise you come up with this:  http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs176.snc4/38156_407910736315_517841315_5113684_2995007_n.jpg
10:51 mathw ah
10:51 mathw yes
10:51 mathw not so good
10:51 sjohnson need to get some tripod action going
10:52 mathw ah here she is
10:52 mathw http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattofwalton/4882653325/ <- the evil furball known as Rascal
10:52 sjohnson thats cute
10:52 mathw that's how she lures you in
10:52 mathw she's cute, playful, violent and has an insatiable appetite for knitting yarn
10:52 sjohnson yeah
10:52 sjohnson i understand completely !
10:53 mathw I enjoy playing with her
10:53 sjohnson thats how all my friends keep getting scratched
10:53 mathw but I'm glad she doesn't live with me
10:53 mathw Pumba's much older though
10:53 sjohnson ever played hide and go seek with a cat?
10:53 mathw no
10:53 sjohnson in the way of, peeking around a corner?
10:53 sjohnson then pretending to hide?
10:53 sjohnson usually gets a lot of good reactions from the more active cats
10:53 sjohnson probably in my top 3 fun things to do with certain cats
10:54 sjohnson some cats dont go for it, other cats will sneak up on you too
10:54 sjohnson then make a daring lunge at you
10:54 sjohnson even if they are old lazy ass cats that hardly move an inch all day, as in the case with our previous orange tabby
10:55 sjohnson not a claw lunge, but one where they can't take the suspence off peek-a-boo, then see what you are hiding behind
10:55 mathw :)
10:55 mathw I'll have to try that with Pumba
10:55 sjohnson depending on the cat, you will be amazed at the results
10:55 sjohnson just try to pretend that you are trying to hide from them as best you can, hiding behind sofas, but making a peek, then hiding again as if you dont want them to see you
10:55 sjohnson its a ton of fun
10:56 sjohnson making it obvious that you are peeking so they see you, but then pretending like you dont want them to see you
10:56 sjohnson hours of entertainment!
10:57 sjohnson anyways matt, i was good chatting with you again
10:57 sjohnson i should probably hit the sack and go to work at a half-decent hour
10:57 sjohnson ttyl!
10:57 mathw bye!
10:58 sjohnson maybe work be done faster and more enjoyable if i just imaging playing with cats instead of reverse engineering other people's uncommented javascript :-(
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11:02 dalek niecza: 10151ff | sorear++ | / (3 files):
11:02 dalek niecza: Optimize cutting of subrules
11:02 dalek niecza:
11:02 dalek niecza: Setting the committed flag is enough from an operational standpoint,
11:02 dalek niecza: but it doesn't allow the search tree to be pruned by the garbage
11:02 dalek niecza: collector.  The new model makes that possible.
11:02 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/10151ff7e33166da68631fc6967b70b380a47e70
11:03 sorear 600kb in 8.1 sec and 23mb \o/
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11:10 * sorear out.
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11:15 masak sjohnson: I had sushi for lunch. yummy.
11:17 masak sjohnson++ # perl 6 explanations to brxue
11:19 masak yay, OSDC.fr talks accepted \o/
11:20 colomon \o/
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11:37 patrickas o/
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11:38 masak \o
11:38 masak rakudo: sub check($_) { my $l = 0; return 0 if ($_ eq "[" ?? ++$l !! --$l) < 0 for .comb; return 1 }; for ^5 { say "$_ is {.&check ?? "" !! "in"}valid" given (<[ ]> xx 5).pick(*).join }
11:38 p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«][[]][[][] is invalid␤]][]][[[][ is invalid␤]][[[][][] is invalid␤[]][[[[]]] is invalid␤][[]][][][ is invalid␤»
11:38 patrickas LOLITSMASAK!
11:38 masak dang, only invalid ones :)
11:38 masak guess they're that much more common...
11:39 masak rakudo: sub check($_) { my $l = 0; return 0 if ($_ eq "[" ?? ++$l !! --$l) < 0 for .comb; return 1 }; for ^5 { say "$_ is {.&check ?? "" !! "in"}valid" given (<[ ]> xx 5).pick(*).join }
11:39 p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«[][][[[]]] is valid␤][[[]][[]] is invalid␤[[][[]]]][ is invalid␤]]][[[][][ is invalid␤[][]][]][[ is invalid␤»
11:39 masak \o/
11:40 patrickas masak: you remind me of Grissum from CSI
11:41 masak unaware of that reference :)
11:41 masak except that CSI is probably something on TV...
11:41 masak rakudo: sub check($_) { -1 == none([\+] map { $_ eq "[" ?? 1 !! -1 }, .comb) }; for ^5 { say "$_ is {.&check ?? "" !! "in"}valid" given (<[ ]> xx 5).pick(*).join }
11:41 p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«][[[[]][]] is invalid␤][[]][[]][ is invalid␤]][[[[[]]] is invalid␤[[]][][][] is valid␤]][[[]][][ is invalid␤»
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11:41 masak \o/
11:42 patrickas He's an entomologist :-p
11:42 masak I'll take that as a compliment :P
11:43 masak (whatever is an entomologist doing on a CSI team?)
11:43 patrickas well Forensic entomologist
11:44 masak gotta know who killed those bugs...
11:45 patrickas Well usually masak is the last person to have seen them unreported so I guess we better start by questioning him!
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11:47 masak :)
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11:51 takadonet morning all
11:52 masak o/
11:56 masak rakudo: for ^5 { say "$_ is {none([\+] map { $_ eq "[" ?? 1 !! -1 }, .comb) < 0 ?? "" !! "in"}valid" given (<[ ]> xx 5).pick(*).join }
11:56 p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«]][]][][[[ is invalid␤][[[][[]]] is invalid␤[[[]]]][][ is invalid␤[]][]][[][ is invalid␤[]][]][][[ is invalid␤»
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12:11 masak phenny: tell mberends that if he plans to submit OSDC.fr talks: deadline falls today.
12:11 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when mberends is around.
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13:06 masak Perl 5 is not very friendly to us poor Perl 6 programmers who regularly forget the parentheses on ifs and loops :/ one gets all manner of strange unrelated errors doing that.
13:07 takadonet heh
13:07 masak in fact, I've come to generally associate a big heap of unrelated errors with the possibility that I might have forgotten such parens.
13:08 masak maybe I should go on p5p and ask that they make the error messages slightly less LTA in this circumstance? :)
13:08 Juerd use List::Util qw(sum);  # [+]
13:09 masak Juerd: ooh! one could make a blog post of "imports you don't need to make in Perl 6" :)
13:09 Juerd I still do prefer "sum" to "[+]" by the way
13:10 Juerd rakudo: (1..5).sum.say
13:10 p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«Method 'sum' not found for invocant of class 'Range'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/izRahoH1R3␤»
13:10 Juerd Meh :)
13:10 masak huh.
13:10 masak alpha: say (1, 2, 3).sum
13:10 p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Method 'sum' not found for invocant of class 'List'␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤»
13:10 jnthn It's sumwhat non-generic though. :-)
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13:11 masak jnthn: welpun back! we missed you :)
13:12 jnthn I've been disappointed at the lack of opportunities for bad puns of late, but I figured one would happun sooner or later. :-P
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13:17 takadonet is there a better way to capture in a regex decimal and non decimal values  then: (\d+'.'\d+|\d+) for values like : 75.34 245 5.3 etc....
13:17 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
13:18 PerlJam takadonet: / ( \d+ [ '.' \d* ]? ) /  # dunno of that's "better"
13:19 PerlJam s/of/if/
13:20 masak alpha: say ?(42.18 ~~ /<Perl6::Grammar::dec_number>/)
13:20 p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«1␤»
13:20 masak that's my preferred method :)
13:20 takadonet PerlJam: i have that as well.
13:20 PerlJam masak++
13:20 takadonet rakudo: say ?(42.18 ~~ /<Perl6::Grammar::dec_number>/)
13:21 p6eval rakudo 859f2d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at line 22, near "::Grammar:"␤»
13:21 masak rakudo--
13:21 takadonet hmmm
13:21 takadonet all well
13:22 masak jnthn: have you ever savoured Finnegan's Wake? http://www.trentu.ca/faculty/jjoyce/fw-16.htm
13:22 jnthn ...no?
13:22 * jnthn looks
13:23 masak it's... odd in a good way. :)
13:23 masak and good in an odd way.
13:24 jnthn ...
13:25 masak *lol*
13:25 jnthn It's odd alright :-)
13:25 jnthn He can prapsposterus the pil-3
13:25 jnthn lory way to Hirculos pillar
13:25 jnthn lol
13:25 jnthn :-)
13:26 masak "You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn."
13:26 jnthn Wid wad for a norse like?
13:27 masak Load Allmarshy!
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13:28 jnthn In the ignorance that implies impression that knits knowledge that finds the nameform that whets the wits that convey contacts that sweeten sensation that drives desire that adheres to attachment that dogs death that bitches birth that entails the ensuance of existentiality.
13:28 masak *lol*
13:28 jnthn Sentence...win. :-)
13:29 jnthn I'm still not sure if any of this actually means anything or just sounds like it does. :-)
13:29 masak it's a very interesting book.
13:29 masak James Joyce doesn't use language like the rest of us do. :)
13:30 arnsholt_ IIRC it's supposed to make the same kind of sense dreams do =)
13:30 jnthn I daren't read it in case I start this way speaking unstoppably the chat or relayed internets.
13:30 masak arnsholt_: yes. it's basically livestreaming a dreamer's thoughts.
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13:31 arnsholt_ is now known as arnsholt
13:31 masak arnsholt_: the awesome thing is, people are pretty sure of the dreamer's *name* from the contents of the book!
13:31 arnsholt Nifty ^^
13:33 masak and of course, a whole lot of other details pertaining to the dreamer.
13:33 masak I do hope to take the time to read it all at some point in my life.
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13:34 jnthn oh noes I've got chocolate all over my multi-dispatch design notes.
13:35 masak solid or liquid?
13:36 jnthn solid but I guess it musta got liquid enough to get sticky at some point
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13:36 jnthn ...maybe this is nature's way of telling me I have a sweet design.
13:37 PerlJam looks like you'll just have to lick them clean then
13:37 masak yes, we prefer a clean design.
13:37 masak jnthn: suck it up!
13:37 jnthn :P
13:38 jnthn meh, this sucks, we should know all the candies at compile time anyways...
13:38 * jnthn tries again
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14:22 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
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14:23 masak morning, pmichaud.
14:23 takadonet pmichaud: morning
14:23 colomon o/
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14:30 mathw o/
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14:35 jnthn morning, pmichaud
14:36 * mathw takes deep breaths
14:36 mathw Sometimes I'm very tempted to take a solemn vow never to use C++ ever again
14:37 arnsholt The C++ FQA makes me question ever learning it =)
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14:37 mathw Then I realise that it's not really C++ I'm angry with, it's Visual Studio
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14:41 pmichaud jnthn: ping
14:42 pmichaud jnthn: could you (or anyone else) verify that check_invokable (src/pmc/perl6multisub.pmc:804-808)  isn't actually being used anywhere?
14:42 pmichaud i.e., I can remove it?
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14:58 masak "Joyce's suggestion, like Grice's, is that we create discourse out of a vast, in principle infinite assemblage of linguistic and encyclopedic elements, and that the threshold at which we label any given discourse as incoherent is in part a function of particular communicative contexts." http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Mutt+and+Jute+dialogue+in+Joyce's+Finnegans+Wake:+Some+Gricean...-a016528210
14:59 masak I'm soddy, bat this orl remynds me of the blag proust "Idiotic Parl Sicks" :)
15:00 masak und so, is in FAQ nott off tropic :)
15:02 masak aur at LISP, naught enteyerly.
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15:08 masak s/Idiotic/Audiomatic/
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15:17 tadzik moritz_: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dbpgd/protected_attributes_and_methods_make_no_sense/c0z2qnr?context=3 -- this might have been clearly said in the post
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15:34 jnthn pmichaud: Gotta decommute - will check when I get home.
15:34 jnthn pmichaud: though imo if you remove it and it compiles, then it's fine :-)
15:34 pmichaud jnthn: that's what I'm doing now.
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15:35 pmichaud I couldn't find any other references to it in the repo (and it's static, so they'd be limited to the one file anyway)
15:36 dalek rakudo: c957c9f | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
15:36 dalek rakudo: Bump PARROT_REVISION to update to a known working 64-bit Parrot (passes all spectests).
15:36 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c957c9fca739d896c8d5fc88e70be2ae360339f6
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15:54 dalek rakudo: c84d0d3 | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
15:54 dalek rakudo: Oops.  *This* is the correct Parrot revision for 64-bit builds -- fixes c957c9f.
15:54 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c84d0d37daeec765e0836b7d739a13d50fc63d54
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16:12 takadonet anyone have some good complex examples on how to use action methods with a grammar? (other then the spec tests)
16:17 PerlJam takadonet: I find your request odd.  :-) Why do you want "good complex examples"?
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16:19 pmichaud takadonet: I don't know if this helps at all, but yesterday evening I wrote http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/blob/master/examples/json.nqp
16:20 takadonet PerlJam: That involves reading nested file formats such as : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Sitemap/samplerecord.html which using the action class creating an (object or complex data structure)
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16:21 takadonet I currently have my grammar parsing out everything nicely just need to put into a nice data structure
16:21 takadonet btw I'm not doing what is at the link but a hmmer profile file
16:22 takadonet pmichaud: that will help thanks!
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16:23 arnsholt This is odd. For some reason my TOP action method isn't called...
16:23 pmichaud takadonet: also see Ch. 10 of the Using Perl 6 book, if you haven't seen that.
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16:28 arnsholt Specifying TOP as method instead of a regex-like shouldn't suppress the call of the action method, should it?
16:28 pmichaud yes, it does.
16:28 pmichaud if you write it as a method, you have to invoke the action method yourself.
16:28 pmichaud automatic calls to the action method are a function of the regex, not of the dispatcher.
16:29 dalek rakudo: 7517e39 | pmichaud++ | src/pmc/perl6multisub.pmc:
16:29 dalek rakudo: Remove dead check_invokable() code from perl6multisub.pmc .
16:29 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7517e39ef7fd59aa3f9a88475289e33726c0998a
16:30 arnsholt Right, I misread the NQP code then. Cheers!
16:34 takadonet pmichaud: I have seen it thanks :)
16:34 arnsholt But in that case, how does TOP in NQP's Actions.pm get called? I can't find an explicit call to it
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16:48 pmichaud arnsholt: it doesn't.
16:48 arnsholt Ah. Right =)
16:49 pmichaud since the TOP method returns the result of comp_unit directly, we get $<comp_unit>'s .ast also.
16:49 pmichaud We could/should remove the TOP method from Actions.pm, I guess.
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16:53 arnsholt Yeah, I think I get it now. Thanks for your help and patience
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17:08 TimToady rakudo: say -> Int $x { $x < 2 ?? 1 !! $x * &?BLOCK($x - 1); }.(10);
17:08 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &?BLOCK␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/yBcmPGYKSE␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/yBcmPGYKSE␤»
17:08 TimToady is that a known bug?
17:09 TimToady it seems to be counting the pointy as a routine ("sub")
17:10 TimToady actually, this one looks borken too:
17:10 TimToady rakudo: say (sub (Int $x) { $x < 2 ?? 1 !! $x * &?ROUTINE($x - 1); }).(10);
17:10 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &?ROUTINE␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/55M0HpCZoq␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/55M0HpCZoq␤»
17:11 TimToady alpha: say (sub (Int $x) { $x < 2 ?? 1 !! $x * &?ROUTINE($x - 1); }).(10);
17:11 p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'Undef'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
17:11 TimToady pugs: say (sub (Int $x) { $x < 2 ?? 1 !! $x * &?ROUTINE($x - 1); }).(10);
17:11 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«3628800␤»
17:12 TimToady pugs: say -> Int $x { $x < 2 ?? 1 !! $x * &?BLOCK($x - 1); }.(10);
17:12 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«<SubPointy(<anon>)>␤*** Cannot cast from VBool True to Pugs.AST.Types.VCode (VCode)␤    at /tmp/Pgi8cOHGi6 line 1, column 1-60␤»
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17:20 TimToady seems like those oughta BLHF
17:21 TimToady had to note non-functionality at http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Y_combinator#Perl_6
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17:24 TimToady rakudo: say .(10) given { $_ < 2 ?? 1 !! $_ * &?BLOCK($_ - 1) }
17:24 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &?BLOCK␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/M95UNzHzlo␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/M95UNzHzlo␤»
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17:25 * moritz_ is pretty sure that it worked in pugs at some point
17:25 TimToady there's an idiom waiting to happen
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17:37 pmichaud afaik, &?BLOCK and &?ROUTINE are nyi
17:37 pmichaud they're not exactly LHF, either.
17:38 moritz_ I just thought about how to implement them
17:38 pmichaud (although that may be due to insufficient imagination)
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17:38 moritz_ and I think the biggest problem is getting a reference to an anonymous routine that might not have been compiled yet
17:39 pmichaud oh!
17:39 pmichaud no.
17:40 moritz_ (sub f() { &?ROUTINE() }).()
17:40 moritz_ (sub () { &?ROUTINE() }).()
17:40 pmichaud one of the challenges is that &?BLOCK and &?ROUTINE need to reference the Code object, not the Parrot Sub
17:41 moritz_ where in the compilation does the wrapping happen?
17:42 pmichaud block_create_closure and block_create_code
17:43 pmichaud however, if we're allowed to assume that &?BLOCK and &?ROUTINE are indeed compile-time constants -- i.e., they refer to the static code object and not the dynamic instance, it might be much simpler.
17:43 moritz_ that's how I understand the spec, yes
17:43 pmichaud oh, then it's not nearly so hard.
17:43 moritz_ oh, you thought about going through getinterp ?
17:43 pmichaud that's one possibility
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17:44 moritz_ we need the parrot sub -> Code transition for callframe() at some point anyway
17:44 TimToady callframe(0).my.<__CANDIDATE_LIST__> doesn't quite get there
17:44 TimToady but static is more better anyway
17:44 pmichaud moritz_: it can also be done as a compile-time item
17:45 moritz_ pmichaud: I don't understand how I can get a reference to sub that hasn't been compiled yet
17:45 pmichaud but I need to settle on a generic framework for handling all compile-time vars, and not a bunch of special cases
17:45 pmichaud moritz_: all I need is a reference to its PAST::Block
17:45 pmichaud we actually do it in several places in Actions.pm
17:45 pmichaud (we have to, because of order-of-initialization issues)
17:45 moritz_ pmichaud: and then compile it again? or is there a way to get the reference of the compiled sub?
17:46 pmichaud PAST::Var.new( :value($block_past) )  # iirc
17:46 moritz_ ah
17:46 pmichaud no, wait
17:46 pmichaud PAST::Val.new( :value($block_past) )
17:46 * moritz_ finds that too much knowledge about rakudo internals is in #perl6, instead of in source code comments
17:47 * TimToady wonders which is wrong more often...
17:47 pmichaud returns a compile-time constant reference to the Parrot Sub corresponding to $block_past, without re-generating $block_past
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17:49 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = <-> $a { }
17:49 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "my $x = <-"␤»
17:50 pmichaud Anyway, &?BLOCK could likely be created as a "simple"      make block_code(@BLOCK[0]);
17:51 moritz_ and &?ROUTINE would go through @BLOCK and search for the first routine?
17:51 pmichaud yes.
17:51 pmichaud and it might need to be   block_closure_ref(...)
17:51 * TimToady wonders if @BLOCK is a space leak
17:51 pmichaud It's a stack.
17:51 dukeleto i get a bunch of "Missing test file" when I run "make spectest" on rakudo master. is that expected?
17:51 pmichaud It's going to eventually be @*BLOCK, at the least.
17:51 pmichaud Or more likely we'll switch to simply $BLOCK   with a chain of <OUTER> references.
17:52 pmichaud er, $*BLOCK
17:52 moritz_ dukeleto: not expected
17:52 TimToady dynamic variable doesn't seem right either
17:53 moritz_ am I right in assuming that each ?-twigil var will need a special case in the compiler?
17:54 pmichaud moritz_: I don't think that's right, or desirable.
17:54 TimToady rakudo: constant $?foo = 42;
17:54 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Constant type declarator not yet implemented at line 22, near "= 42;"␤»
17:54 pmichaud I'd certainly like to avoid too much special-case-ness in Actions.pm
17:54 dukeleto moritz_: this is what I see when I type "make spectest" in rakudo: http://gist.github.com/574069
17:55 TimToady some special cases are needed, but most constants can live in the normal symbol table seen by constant declarators
17:55 TimToady if they were yi
17:55 dukeleto moritz_: i am getting a bunch of failures too, but something must be wrong on my machine. I blew away every version of parrot I had on my machine, and I am using --gen-parrot, but something is still borked
17:55 TimToady or would that be syi?
17:55 * moritz_ thought about things like $?LINE, $?FILE, &?BLOCK  etc.
17:56 TimToady $?LINE has to be special, methinks, but $?FILE doesn't
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17:56 moritz_ dukeleto: that's weird... try to rm -rf t/spec and 'make testable' again?
17:56 moritz_ or maybe your rakudo copy is stale?
17:56 moritz_ anyway, afk
17:57 pmichaud TimToady: is something like   CALLER::<?$LINE>   valid?  I've been assuming "yes"
17:57 dukeleto moritz_: will try, thanks.
17:57 pmichaud er,  CALLER::<$?LINE>
17:57 TimToady I think I said that one wasn't necessary, we can do caller.line or some such
17:58 pmichaud okay.
17:58 TimToady rakudo: say callframe().line
17:58 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«22␤»
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17:58 pmichaud oh, and it even works.  Shiny.
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18:07 colomon rakudo: say callframe().file
18:07 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«/tmp/K8zTKm_UYf␤»
18:08 colomon I presume there's a way to walk back up the stack?
18:08 pmichaud callframe(1)
18:08 pmichaud callframe(2)
18:08 pmichaud callframe(Routine)
18:08 pmichaud etc.
18:08 pmichaud See S06.
18:09 TimToady S06:2350 in fact
18:09 colomon sweet
18:09 TimToady ignore DYNAMIC::<$?LINE> though  :)
18:10 * pmichaud submits specbug :-P
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18:15 shortcircuit It occurs to me, watching P6 development in here, that P6 is what happens when you get a bunch of hackers together collaboratively building a language out of features they like.
18:16 TimToady that's more or less what we announced in 2000
18:17 shortcircuit I've seen several langauges where they were designed to include the parts the author likes. Some even hit production as part of commercial entities, but P6 may be the only one I've seen that throws hackers and collaboration into the formula.
18:17 Ross joined #perl6
18:17 * shortcircuit is failing at English sentence structuring today.
18:18 TimToady we still needed to unify the design though; the original proposed feature set was completely incoherent
18:18 shortcircuit TimToady: I remember that announcement. I think I still have the relevant Linux Magazine issue somewhere. :)
18:19 dukeleto moritz++ # rm -rf t/spec; make testable seems to have worked
18:19 dukeleto i think the way that rakudo updates t/spec may need some tweaking
18:20 dukeleto seems like a "git pull --rebase" would be better than a "git pull", and perhaps an explicit "git checkout master"
18:20 TimToady walk &
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18:20 dukeleto otherwise, if someone is working on a branch in t/spec, "git pull" will commit a merge to whatever branch it is one
18:20 dukeleto s/one/on/
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18:26 dukeleto is (1,1) .. (2,1) supposed to be an infinite list ?
18:26 dukeleto perl6: (1,1) .. (2,1)
18:26 p6eval pugs, rakudo 7517e3:  ( no output )
18:29 pmichaud rakudo:  say (1,1) cmp (2,1)
18:29 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«-1␤»
18:30 pmichaud rakudo:   say (1,1).succ
18:30 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«1 2␤»
18:30 pmichaud hmmmmm
18:31 pmichaud I don't quite understand that one.
18:31 pmichaud rakudo:  say ~(1,1).^methods
18:31 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«item  ACCEPTS perl hash Capture of elems at_pos sort Str iterator Bool elems fmt item Num Str Numeric Int list acotanh trim-trailing from-radians capitalize pred atanh cosec exp lc p5chop chars sinh to-radians acotan lcfirst roots lines sec trim asec trim-leading cotanh cis
18:31 p6eval ..log log…
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18:31 pmichaud rakudo:  say Parcel.^methods
18:31 p6eval rakudo 7517e3:
18:31 p6eval ..OUTPUT«ACCEPTSperlhashCaptureofelemsat_possortStriteratorBoolitemStrNumericIntlistelemsfmtitemNumcotanatan2lcfirstucseccislogsubstrfrom-radianssprintftranssinIntpredacosecsubstsinhcosechacosechabschompindexceilingtrimasectrim-leadingunpolartrim-trailingsechordrandtruncateRatrindexsqrtasin…
18:31 pmichaud rakudo:  say ~Parcel.^methods
18:31 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«Bool item  ACCEPTS perl Capture hash of elems at_pos sort Str iterator list elems fmt item Num Str Numeric Int trim asec trim-leading cotanh ucfirst tan sech cos rand truncate fmt trans sqrt asin cosh succ subst sign Numeric chomp index uc chr acotanh samecase substr
18:31 p6eval ..trim-trailing …
18:32 pmichaud ah, Parcel ~~ Iterable    and   Iterable ~~ Cool
18:32 pmichaud not sure about that second one.
18:32 colomon rakudo: say Failure + 4
18:32 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«Method 'Bridge' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in 'infix:<+>' at line 3515:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/6N0cR37pkx␤»
18:34 colomon rakudo: say (+Failure) + 4
18:34 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context␤4␤»
18:35 dukeleto colomon: i ran into that Failure failure yesterday :)
18:35 colomon dukeleto: seems like we should have a more graceful / useful way of handling it.
18:35 dukeleto how do I run one spectest file verbosely?
18:36 tadzik perl6 /t/spec/stuff I believe
18:36 tadzik s:/t/:./t/:
18:36 tadzik that's how I do it
18:37 dukeleto tadzik++
18:37 dukeleto duh :)
18:39 * dukeleto just submitted this as a rakudo bug: http://gist.github.com/574122
18:40 dukeleto one spec test coredumps for me, the other doesn't parse. I hope I included all necessary info, please let me know if I didn't
18:41 dukeleto i just added the backtrace to the coredump to the gist
18:41 dukeleto colomon: is Failure + 2 a general issue with attempting to use Roles in a numeric context ?
18:42 dukeleto perl6: Role + 2
18:42 p6eval pugs, rakudo 7517e3:  ( no output )
18:42 colomon dukeleto: It's an error using anything that's non-numeric in a numeric context, I think.
18:42 dukeleto perl6: say (Role + 2)
18:43 jnthn pmichaud: Maybe Iterable wants to be a role?
18:43 p6eval pugs, rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«2␤»
18:43 dukeleto colomon: Role seems to be fine
18:43 colomon rakudo: class Blueberry { has $.skin; }; say Blueberry.new + 4
18:43 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«Can't take numeric value for object of type Blueberry␤  in 'Any::Numeric' at line 1386:CORE.setting␤  in 'infix:<+>' at line 7072:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/yl3noLOJFq␤»
18:43 colomon I guess that is a better message.
18:43 colomon oh, now I remember!
18:43 colomon the Failure issue is caused by
18:43 colomon rakudo: say Failure ~~ Numeric
18:44 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«1␤»
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18:44 colomon I guess the real question, is what should Failure + 4 do?
18:44 PerlJam fail.
18:45 colomon Well, then all that we have in this case is a poor error message.
18:46 dukeleto colomon: yes, I agree. Failure + 2 fails, but not with the correct error
18:46 colomon Does that imply that +Failure is also wrong (because it returns 0 with a warning)?
18:46 dukeleto colomon: do you have any failing spectests on master at the moment? do you know what http://gist.github.com/574122 is about?
18:47 colomon I haven't seen those, but I haven't spectested since I checked in yesterday.
18:49 colomon t/spec/S19-command-line/dash-e.t works fine for me.
18:49 colomon errr... actually, I'm not quite up to date.  five minutes, please...
18:50 dukeleto colomon: i worry that the things i am seeing only fail for rakudo on 64bit linux
18:50 dukeleto colomon: which may be parrot issues, not rakudo bugs
18:50 colomon I can try that too, if you'd like.  :)
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18:51 dukeleto colomon: it would help me to be sure that I am not crazy :)
18:51 colomon or prove that you are!  ;)
18:52 PerlJam I think people that hang out on #perl6 are crazy by definition.
18:53 colomon PerlJam: hard to argue with that...
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18:57 diakopter estrabd: ?
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18:57 colomon dukeleto: very latest still works on 32-bit OS X
18:58 CoCol left #perl6
18:58 colomon dukeleto: 64-bit linux compile on-going
18:59 tylercurtis left #perl6
18:59 dukeleto colomon: cool, thanks for checking!
19:00 dukeleto would anybody mind if I added *.rakudo to .gitignore in roast.git ?
19:01 pmichaud jnthn: Iterable works far better as a type, I think.  I'm just not sure it should be Cool.
19:01 pmichaud s/type/class/
19:02 pmichaud I only stuck it in as Cool in June (while trying to explore the iterator/iterable details)  because I figured it allow me to avoid some early blockers
19:02 pmichaud waitaminnit
19:02 pmichaud that can't be the issue anyway, come to think of it.
19:03 pmichaud rakudo:  say ~Cool.^methods
19:03 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«acos fmt trans eval chop rindex tanh subst Numeric chomp index IO chr acotanh trim-trailing from-radians capitalize pred atanh exp cosec lc p5chop chars to-radians sinh acotan lcfirst roots lines sec trim asec trim-leading cotanh cis log sech log10 rand sprintf truncate bytes
19:03 p6eval ..sqrt …
19:03 pmichaud why does Cool have a .pred/.succ ?
19:03 pmichaud that doesn't seem right.
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19:03 pmichaud augment class Cool { multi method succ() { (~self).succ } multi method pred() { (~self).pred }
19:03 pmichaud }
19:04 pmichaud I disagree.
19:04 * pmichaud removes those and sees what happens.
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19:08 colomon dukeleto: I get a segmentation fault on ./perl6 t/spec/S19-command-line/dash-e.t on my 64-bit box
19:09 dukeleto colomon: i'm not crazy!
19:09 colomon so it looks like we do have some sort of issue.
19:09 colomon dukeleto: your error can be duplicated.  I'm not willing to make any further diagnosis of your mental health.  ;)
19:09 dukeleto colomon: my backtrace is in the gist. looks like the parrot fast runcore is corrupting memory somehow
19:10 dukeleto colomon: touche ;)
19:10 dukeleto colomon: i submitted it as a rakudobug
19:10 colomon dukeleto: I think this is the point where we look to pmichaud...
19:10 dukeleto yes, pmichaud recently had to deal with some funny business regarding rakudo+parrot+64bit linux
19:13 dukeleto colomon: #77778
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19:15 dukeleto colomon: i added my backtrace to the ticket
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19:18 colomon dukeleto++
19:19 dukeleto colomon: i asked for help on parrot-dev as well
19:20 M_o_C joined #perl6
19:22 dukeleto looks like roast.git commits don't get announced in here, eh?
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19:42 x3nU i wonder, must be rakudo star installer MSI? nsis would be easier imho
19:44 masak joined #perl6
19:44 masak ahoy!
19:44 tadzik ohai!
19:45 masak sleep will pull me offline quite soon. but I thought I'd stop by :)
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19:51 pmichaud x3nU: it depends solely on who creates the file.  :)
19:51 masak in the newly spec'd 'dir' function: "Only items that smart-match against this test are returned." is it the file names that are smartmatched, or IO objects representing the files?
19:52 pmichaud x3nU: if you (or someone) wants to publish how-to-create-nsis or the nsis version, that'd be great. :)
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20:08 dalek rakudo: 43c27a9 | pmichaud++ | src/core/Cool.pm:
20:08 dalek rakudo: Remove .succ and .pred from Cool.
20:08 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/43c27a9fb51a9d200b1d9eab2d611773e9a1e612
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20:12 masak rakudo: for^5 {say "$_ is {all([\+]1,map {92-.&ord},.comb)??""!!"in"}valid"given(<[ ]>xx 5).pick(*).join}
20:12 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«][[]][[][] is invalid␤[]][][][[] is invalid␤[]]]]][[[[ is invalid␤[[][[]]][] is valid␤]][[][[]][ is invalid␤»
20:12 masak that's almost too short :)
20:13 tadzik rakudo: my @list = 1, 2, 3; say .pred«@list # how do I do this correctly?
20:13 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say .pred\x{ab}"␤»
20:13 masak tadzik: @list>>.pred
20:13 tadzik masak: well, I wanted the example of the other-side-» :)
20:13 tadzik (other than 2-arg operators)
20:13 masak tadzik: method call is a postfix operator.
20:14 tadzik oh, so » is for postfixes and « is for prefixes?
20:14 masak aye.
20:14 pmichaud rakudo:  my @list = 1,2,3;  .pred.say for @list;
20:14 p6eval rakudo 7517e3: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤»
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20:20 dalek rakudo: ce565f3 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
20:20 dalek rakudo: enable :r and :ratchet outside of regexes
20:20 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ce565f3525f44e90837994704f37b542df63d894
20:23 lichtkind is each official?
20:23 lichtkind i dont see it in S03
20:23 masak lichtkind: it's in S09.
20:24 lichtkind thanks
20:24 masak lichtkind: and it's conjectural.
20:24 masak which I guess means that it's hesitatingly official.
20:25 masak hm, erez++ just pointed me to the original "enable Perl 6 knock offs\nuse 5.010;" code snippet: http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=859596
20:26 masak I can see how someone closer to Perl 5 than to Perl 6 might be upset by such a comment. it's not fair to Perl 5.10 to reduce it to being about "Perl 6 knock offs".
20:26 tadzik left #perl6
20:27 pmichaud does 'each' become official when yapsi implements it?  ;-)
20:27 masak on the other hand, I don't believe in shooting people on sight, not even people who write thoughtless comments. http://twitter.com/erez/status/24090023075
20:27 jaffa4 joined #perl6
20:28 masak jaffa4! \o/
20:28 jaffa4 hi
20:28 masak pmichaud: we'll just have to try it and see :)
20:29 pmichaud masak: maybe he meant shoot as in "with a camera"  :)
20:29 pmichaud in that context, I often shoot people on sight.  :)
20:29 masak "You're cute. You ought to be shot on sight." hm.
20:30 masak there are probably worse pick-up lines, but I can't think of any right now.
20:31 jnthn I can think of worse ones. :-)
20:31 pmichaud "You had me at 'Go away.'"  :-)
20:31 jnthn lol
20:31 masak that's a followup :P
20:31 pmichaud is it still a followup if it's the first thing you say?  ;-)
20:31 masak ooh, interesting.
20:32 masak as a conversation starter, even? :)
20:32 masak "You had me at 'Go away.'" -- "What?"
20:32 jnthn It...could just work. :-)
20:32 jnthn But I'll let somebody else do the research. :P
20:32 masak I can think of worse ones. :)
20:33 pmichaud I know a guy who started the conversation with his future wife with   "How am I doing so far?"
20:34 tadzik joined #perl6
20:34 masak Pretty well, apparently.
20:35 PerlJam masak: could be pmichaud left out some information.  "... future ex-wife"   ;-)
20:35 pmichaud I have no information on that.
20:36 jaffa4 left #perl6
20:37 masak jaffa4's exit message is intriguing, evocative, and wrong. :)
20:37 b0miva left #perl6
20:38 [particle] it becomes a movie called "Inception".
20:38 masak :D
20:38 b0m1ro joined #perl6
20:38 pmichaud yes, I was just thinking how truly frightening that message could be if true.  :)
20:38 jnthn It's all the more scary given I can never remember my dreams after I wake up from them. :-)
20:39 masak pmichaud: it might be true, but "the same dream" never occurs since dreams have a unique object identity. :)
20:39 patrickas joined #perl6
20:39 jnthn struct Dream { ... }
20:39 jnthn ;-)
20:39 masak but Occam called, and he wants his razor back.
20:40 jnthn I think I figured out how to implement most of the lexical multi-dispatch stuff efficiently today.
20:40 jnthn However, I don't trust myself to implement it correctly tonight. :-)
20:40 masak nice!
20:40 * masak decides to go to sleep
20:40 masak see you tomorrah, #perl6!
20:40 * jnthn decides to have a beer
20:40 jnthn night, masak
20:41 masak night.
20:41 masak left #perl6
20:44 [particle] the lesson of the day from jnthn is, "trust, but beerify."
20:44 [particle] i think reagan would approve.
20:46 pmichaud http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=54028  # a true bug report (might be old news here)
20:46 jnthn In Soviet Russia, multiples dispatch you.
20:48 jnthn "Perhaps the watch is a Microsoft product - have you tried taking it off and putting it back on again?
20:48 jnthn "
20:48 jnthn lol
20:48 jnthn pmichaud: I hadn't seen this one. :-)
20:48 jnthn :-)
20:48 pmichaud "Hate to bring it up, but Oracle holds patents..."
20:49 jnthn yes, just got to that one :-)
20:50 jnthn systemet++ # stocking lots of German beer to celebrate Oktoberfest
20:50 jnthn systemet-- # not at German prices
20:51 * jnthn should actually to go that festival one day...
20:52 literal left #perl6
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20:57 dalek 6model: 6516ba1 | jnthn++ | dotnet/runtime/Runtime/Lexpad.cs:
20:57 dalek 6model: Mysteriously forgot to commit Lexpad.cs at some point in the past. :/
20:57 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/6516ba1931e449bd223f9e4891d2d7842b351084
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21:17 diakopter as an exercise in church camp one summer, we were given bibles to place in the campfire, ostensibly to distinguish Jesus as the self/Bible-proclaimed "Word of God" (in the flesh) from the much more abstract "Word of God" (used in the Old Testament), that referred to the direct and indirect verbal communications from God, including the scriptures.
21:18 tadzik are you referring to the Koran burning case?
21:18 diakopter obliquely
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21:21 sjohnson hehe
21:21 sjohnson thanks for sharing that interesting fact
21:22 tadzik insightful indeed
21:22 mfollett joined #perl6
21:23 tadzik btw, anyone interested in a module installer working on windows?
21:23 jnthn Yes
21:24 tadzik jnthn: I'm thinking about making neutro work on windows, so it could possibly make it into R*
21:24 jnthn Nice
21:24 tadzik unfortunately, I have no windows anywhere and my virtualbox is dead for some time
21:24 tadzik also, I have very little experience with it
21:25 tadzik jnthn: so, to start, is 'make' a problem?
21:26 tadzik I heard 'no' some day, but I'm thinking about someone who has just installed R* on his/her fresh Windows machine
21:26 jnthn There's no "make" by default on Windows. There are various makes that run there, one being nmake
21:26 jnthn On a fresh machine, no.
21:26 tadzik alright, pls approach then
21:26 jnthn approaching
21:26 jnthn oh, wait, it wasn't a request...
21:26 jnthn :-)
21:26 tadzik :) how about module install path? It's a fixed path in R*, isn't it?
21:26 diakopter jnthn: probably best to start with the one that comes with strawberry perl - dmake
21:27 tadzik rakudo: say $*VM<CONFIG><OS> # this way?
21:27 p6eval rakudo ce565f: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
21:27 jnthn diakopter: Maybe, apart from I don't use that... :S
21:27 jnthn diakopter: And probably not anyone building with MS VC++
21:27 diakopter yeah but, I bet almost no rakudo user will also use visual studio
21:27 tadzik why not?
21:28 jnthn It's probably best to just not expect there to be a make program, imho.
21:28 diakopter of course.  I was suggesting supplying dmake the same way strawberry perl does.
21:28 tadzik yeah, that's a good think imho
21:29 tadzik rakudo: say $*VM<config><osname>
21:30 p6eval rakudo ce565f: OUTPUT«linux␤»
21:30 Ross left #perl6
21:30 tadzik looks like I'm about to steal a part of pls
21:30 diakopter rakudo: say $*VM<config><>
21:30 p6eval rakudo ce565f: OUTPUT«12/home/p6eval/rakudo/parrot818"$(PERL) -MExtUtils::Command -e cp/home/p6eval//p2/share/doc181-lm -L/usr/lib  -licuuc -licudata -lm__attribute__ ((noinline))%.15g.so$(PERL) -MExtUtils::Command -e rm_f/home/p6eval//p2/etcamd64definet/compilers/pct/*.t t/compilers/pge/*.t
21:30 p6eval ..t/compilers…
21:30 diakopter erm
21:30 tadzik jnthn: so where should a module be installed to on windows?
21:32 tadzik oh crap, the git issue
21:32 tadzik well, not bad. Do git commands work as on unixes if git is installed?
21:32 diakopter tadzik: well... you'd have to pick a "standardized" location (to which to install modules)
21:32 jnthn tadzik: Yes
21:32 tadzik diakopter: I think R* alredy has one it puts the modules in
21:32 diakopter same as on unix, yes, if the person puts them in their path
21:33 tadzik diakopter: so I think it'd be a nice place
21:33 diakopter tadzik: ok then :) why'd you ask
21:33 tadzik as I said, I don't know much about windowses
21:33 tadzik back in the days I used it, I was mostly playing games
21:35 diakopter Also, the burning of an English bible was used to remind us how English bibles are a-dime-a-dozen, but in lots of other languages are much more precious/rare/nonexistent.
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21:56 patrickas rakudo: say (1, 2 , {last if $_>=5; $_+1} ... *)
21:56 p6eval rakudo ce565f: OUTPUT«12345␤»
21:57 literal_ is now known as literal
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22:10 ash_ you know what would be nice, in terms of documentation anyway
22:11 ash_ php does this on their official site, just do php.net/some_function and you get linked directly to the docs for that function, it might be nice to setup something like that for rakudo or the spec
22:12 timbunce joined #perl6
22:12 ash_ like, rakudo.org/grep or docs.rakudo.org/hyper-oprators or something, i duno just thinking outloud
22:13 pmichaud ash_: Well volunteered, sir!  :-)
22:14 tadzik :D
22:16 tadzik left #perl6
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22:24 ash_ maybe when try.rakudo.org is done :P
22:24 jaldhar joined #perl6
22:24 ash_ i'd like to be able to do: help grep and have that integrated into try.rakudo.org (as a command for the online terminal)
22:25 ash_ maybe perldoc grep, i haven't decided on syntax yet
22:25 ash_ doc grep? /shrug
22:29 jnthn "wtf is grep" :-)
22:30 mfollett left #perl6
22:30 patrickas pull request sent for series new spec patch, review / comments welcome :-)
22:34 patrickas pmichaud: I did eventually solve the laziness issue of the LHS you had commented about a couple of weeks ago. With this new patch we can finally have infinite lists on the lhs of the series op.
22:34 nadim joined #perl6
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22:41 nimiezko hello
22:44 patrickas hello nimiezko
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23:17 sjohnson grep!
23:17 sjohnson grep and map, perl5's favourite cousins
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23:28 sorear good * #perl6
23:37 * sorear is struggling to implement rule a { b { $<X> = 1; } c } and rule a { <.b> }; method b($¢) { $¢.<X> = 1; $¢ }
23:37 sorear both patterns are used in STD, a lot
23:38 sorear erm. method b { self.<X> = 1; self }
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