Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-09-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:14 sorear TimToady: ping
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00:21 TimToady pang
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00:36 supernovus Well I'm off for the day. Anyway, it's far from finished, but the first version of Flower is now available on Github. Petal templates come to Perl 6 :-)
00:36 sorear TimToady: Can you reflect on the meaning of 'sub foo { bar }; BEGIN { foo }; sub bar { }' for me?
00:37 sorear I think a lot of my questions about BEGIN are wrapped up in the interpretation of that
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00:38 * jnthn will be curious to see the reflections :-)
00:40 TimToady that should successfully call foo from the BEGIN, but fail to find a definition for bar
00:40 TimToady at most there would be a stub saying "we saw this name but we don't know what it means yet"
00:40 sorear What if I wrote 'sub foo { bar if 0 }; BEGIN { foo }; sub bar { }' ?
00:40 TimToady that would be fine
00:40 sorear The big question with stubs is where to put them
00:41 TimToady well, STD doesn't use stubs at all for that
00:41 TimToady it keeps a list of mysteries, and resolves them at CHECK time
00:41 TimToady so in STD, if it could do BEGIN, it wouldn't find bar at all, not even a stub
00:42 TimToady I think Perl 5 puts a stub, iirc
00:42 TimToady but tracks whethere a body has showed up yet
00:43 sorear Well
00:43 sorear std: sub foo { bar }; BEGIN { foo }; sub bar { } # This passes
00:44 p6eval std : OUTPUT«ok 00:01 116m␤»
00:44 sorear std: BEGIN { bar if 0 }; sub bar { } # This doesn't
00:44 p6eval std : OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Undeclared routine:␤   'bar' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 117m␤»
00:44 sorear What's the difference?
00:44 TimToady BEGIN does its own CHECK for mysteries
00:45 TimToady and determines there's been no def for bar yet
00:45 sorear Why doesn't BEGIN check for mysteries in foo?
00:45 TimToady because foo doesn't have to run immediately
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00:47 sorear so you're saying that 'sub foo { bar if 0 }; BEGIN { foo }; sub bar { }' should work, but 'BEGIN { bar if 0 }; sub bar { }' should not?
00:47 sorear what is the rationale for this?
00:49 TimToady foo runs in the context of the whole compilation unit, BEGIN can only run in the context of what has been defined so far
00:49 sorear But BEGIN has a static dependency on foo.
00:50 TimToady I don't see what that has to do with anything
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00:51 sorear Both BEGIN and foo have to run before bar is seen
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00:51 sorear They're no different
00:51 sorear jnthn?
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00:53 TimToady it makes no sense to mention something that hasn't been defined yet at BEGIN, but it does make sense to mention something in foo that hasn't been defined yet.   BEGIN is in some sense functioning as its own compilation unit, and the preceding text is its setting.
00:54 TimToady though it's more like a prelude
00:56 TimToady the same would be true of any macro body that has to run at compile time that refers to something that hasn't been defined yet
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00:57 TimToady the main point of macros and BEGIN is to capture control at that point of the compilation, so they can't depend on the later code that depends on them
01:00 jnthn TimToady: My concern with BEGIN calling subs that are outside of the BEGIN block is that we can't treat the whole file as a single compilation unit. We may have to do a chunk of compilation and then fix things up later on.
01:00 jnthn TimToady: It's all well and good if you're writing an interpreter, like Perl 5. But it's hell for compilers.
01:00 sorear I don't have issues with the "two compilation units" thing
01:00 jnthn I do.
01:01 jnthn I really don't like it.
01:01 sorear What bothers *me* is that I might have to call subs with unresolved lexicals
01:01 jnthn It means you have to go and do a load of fixing things up later on.
01:01 jnthn It may be worse than that. (more)
01:01 jnthn Imagine that I have
01:02 jnthn multi foo(T $x) { stuff }; BEGIN { foo(S.new) }; multi foo(S $x) { stuff }; # where S is a subtype of T
01:02 sorear I need to know, at compile time, how many pads up the definition of bar is
01:03 jnthn At the point of doing the call in the BEGIN we've only seen half of the candidates.
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01:03 jnthn sorear: Well, there may not even *be* a bar defined later too
01:04 sorear I wouldn't even mind supporting 'sub bar { ... }; sub foo { bar if 0 }; BEGIN { foo }; sub bar { }'
01:04 jnthn We just don't know at that point
01:04 TimToady well, multi is kinda beside the point, insofar as a call is always to the proto, though adding candidates is certainly an issue
01:04 jnthn Well, the call can be a dynamic lookup through the outer chain if we don't have an entry to hand to compile it more optimally
01:05 sorear jnthn: Oh, I had forgotten about the possiblity of dynamic lookup
01:05 TimToady as soon as we have a call, we already know statically if we have a target
01:05 sorear That will certainly wokr
01:05 jnthn The multiple compilation unit-y thing and having to merge them all is what bothers me more though.
01:06 TimToady std: sub foo {}; BEGIN { foo; sub foo {} }
01:06 p6eval std : OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Lexical symbol '&foo' is already bound to an outer symbol (see line 1);␤  the implicit outer binding at line 1 must be rewritten as OUTER::<&foo>␤  before you can unambiguously declare a new '&foo' in this scope at /tmp/U9VYNVssRa line 1:␤------> [32…
01:06 TimToady see, it's already looked up BEGIN's foo call
01:07 TimToady I think at worst you have to scrap any temporary candidate lists for protos
01:08 jnthn TimToady: You're still addressing specific issues rather than my overall dislike of having to compile up to a certain point, with lexical scopes left open so we can modify them further on.
01:08 TimToady well, I don't see how that's negotiable if we ever want macros
01:09 TimToady BEGIN is just a particularly stupid macro
01:09 jnthn TimToady: macros are rather more self-contained though, I figured?
01:09 TimToady macros can see their scopes too
01:10 TimToady in fact, we have to be tricky to be careful which scope they're using at any spot
01:10 TimToady hence :COMPILING and such
01:10 TimToady and lift
01:10 jnthn *sigh*
01:10 TimToady BEGIN at least has the non-problem that it is defined and executed in the same scope
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01:19 sorear jnthn: if it was just leaving lexical scopes open, I could handle that
01:19 sorear easily
01:19 jnthn sorear: I suspect it's more than that.
01:20 jnthn sorear: Well, maybe I could do, if I could actually, you know, just go and fix the darn lexical implementation.
01:20 sorear what about
01:20 lichtkind jnthn: o/
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01:20 sorear #`( 1000 subs go here ); BEGIN { eval $unpredictable-string }
01:20 sorear which subs need to be code-generated before BEGIN?
01:21 jnthn Well, probably all of them to be on the safe side...
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01:21 jnthn Trouble is, we're compiling them with incomplete knowledge of what lies ahead
01:21 jnthn e.g. suppose we have more multi-candidates ahead after the BEGIN.
01:22 jnthn We thus didn't know what candidates we had when we compiled those 1000 subs after all
01:22 lichtkind jnthn: excuse to disturb you will be in vienna?
01:22 jnthn So we can't apply any of the optimizations to avoid the mutli dispatcher.
01:22 jnthn lichtkind: No, I don't plan to be there.
01:22 Util [S32]/Containers/Hash says: "With C<pairs> the values are references back to the original containers".
01:22 Util perl6: my %h = A => 1, B => 2; .value = 9 for %h.pairs; %h.values.sort.say;
01:22 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«12␤»
01:22 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«99␤»
01:22 jnthn It'd be fun, but budget/time, etc.
01:22 Util Is this a bug in Rakudo, or just a well-known "not implemented yet"?
01:23 lichtkind jnthn: i do was so good last time with you all :)
01:23 jnthn lichtkind: Enjoy. :-)
01:23 jnthn Util: Something looks wrong there either way.
01:24 jnthn Util: pmichaud++ is planning some work on hashes and it would likely help with this.
01:24 lichtkind jnthn: im not quit shure what my talks will be aboput, will presenting enhanced version of my rebol talk, maybe some perl 6 stuff too
01:24 lichtkind if you will not be there nobiody can correct me :)
01:24 sorear lichtkind: hi
01:24 lichtkind sorear: hi
01:24 sorear you were looking for me on Tuesday
01:24 sorear but you were only on the channel the exact hours I have class
01:25 jnthn lichtkind: Well, you're just going to have to be right about everything then, aren't you. :-)
01:25 lichtkind jnthn: aaaah
01:25 lichtkind sorear: you mena me?
01:25 lichtkind sorear: yes i anted ask you about your implementation i guess
01:26 sorear lichtkind: you are called lichtkind, yes?
01:26 lichtkind but im now heading toward bed
01:26 lichtkind sorear: i think i should be now be visible as lichtkind too
01:26 sorear lichtkind: which of the 168 hours in the UTC week do you want to talk to me?
01:27 sorear jnthn: In general I think that if the user drops a BEGIN in the middle of a large scc of subs they should get what's coming to them
01:28 lichtkind sorear: what about in 10 hours?
01:28 sorear "the call can be a dynamic lookup through the outer chain" was exactly the insight I needed
01:28 sorear lichtkind: that will be 4:30 am local time...
01:28 Util jnthn: thanks!
01:30 jnthn sorear: Happy to help. ;-)
01:30 jnthn sorear: I'm in more of a bind because Rakudo's current compilation model is rather more tied to the single compilation unit approach and closed lexical pads etc
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01:31 lichtkind_ sorear: please repeat had an 24h disconnect
01:32 sorear jnthn: so is niecza's current compilation model; I'm trying to build a new one which can do everything Perl6 needs
01:32 sorear lichtkind: which of the 168 hours in the UTC week do you want to talk to me?
01:32 sorear lichtkind: that will be 4:30 am local time...
01:32 jnthn sorear: Right, similar for 6model
01:32 sorear 6model seems to be focusing mostly on ClassHOW
01:33 sorear what I'm doing is more of a Sub overhaul
01:33 lichtkind_ sorear: allrigth the i have nothing missen
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01:33 lichtkind_ what about 9:30 yor local time?
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01:33 jnthn sorear: Aye, but I expect what I'm working on to be the foundation of porting Rakudo to .Net and beyond.
01:33 sorear lichtkind: problematic.  10:30 or 11:30 would work much better
01:34 jnthn sorear: My point more is that I can't really just decide "oh, I'll go and do X change to lexpads" because that lives inside Parrot.
01:34 sorear 2:30-3:30 would also work, although you'll have to excuse any grumpiness :)
01:35 lichtkind :)
01:35 sorear jnthn: I expect that in the long run Rakudo will need to treat Parrot like a more-dynamic JVM or CLR
01:35 lichtkind nop here
01:36 sorear so when?
01:36 lichtkind but 9:30 pm here (11:30 am for you) fould be fine
01:36 lichtkind i have questions regardiing  niecza for my articles and my docs
01:37 lichtkind jnthn: some regarding 6model i have too :)
01:37 jnthn lichtkind: OK, catch me tomorrow.
01:37 sorear I think I have a fairly solid understanding of 6model at this point
01:37 jnthn :-)
01:37 sorear SMOP is my big todo now
01:37 jnthn sorear: I hope it was reasonably penetrable.
01:39 jnthn 6model took some inspiration from SMOP
01:39 jnthn Quite a bit, in fact.
01:39 jnthn Though does some things quite differently.
01:40 lichtkind is smop still active?
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01:41 * jnthn sleeps
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01:41 lichtkind good night
01:41 sorear jnthn: I see Parrot's inner interpreter and pmc/dispatch system as potentially (post-lorito) much better than the JVM/CLR for Perl6
01:41 sorear jnthn: but the standard PMC types are all junk
01:42 lichtkind sorear: what is lorito?
01:43 sorear lichtkind: code name for a large set of parrot refactors aimed at reducing the coupling between parrot's core and libraries
01:44 sorear to #parrot, a small core means maintainability and the ability to make a JIT with less than 100 man-years
01:44 lichtkind sorear: thank you
01:44 lichtkind bye
01:45 sorear to me, lorito means not having to use a bunch of pmcs designed by the PSF ;)
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01:47 lichtkind :)
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06:07 dalek 6model: 3f1d29b | mberends++ | java/runtime/Rakudo/Metamodel/SharedTable.java:
06:07 dalek 6model: [java] finish the last todo items in SharedTable (calling Runtime.Ops)
06:07 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/3f1d29b63f1d64ffca59f0fbefc5c622f8332df2
06:09 mberends market &
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07:00 dalek niecza: 8743f45 | sorear++ | src/Metamodel.pm:
07:00 dalek niecza: Start prototyping a BEGIN-time metamodel
07:00 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/8743f459acca445426384a702f71f0855fc6835f
07:00 dalek niecza: eb45fca | sorear++ | / (2 files):
07:00 dalek niecza: [mm] First runnable prototype
07:00 dalek niecza: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/eb45fca341db04cff7c796ef761935b824d5d1f0
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07:48 standz Irssi 0.8.12 (20071006) - http://irssi.org/
07:50 sorear upgrade
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07:58 standz Sat Sep 18 08:57:46 BST 2010
07:58 standz was kicked by sorear: Your client is malfunctioning and spamming the channel
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09:14 * sorear out
09:20 moritz_ http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=860609 ideas for good replies welcome
09:20 phenny moritz_: 17 Sep 22:49Z <diakopter> tell moritz_ I sigtermed your pugssvn on feather3; sorry if I wasn't supposed to
09:20 moritz_ diakopter++
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09:32 * JimmyZ replies it.
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10:23 masak y0, #perl6!
10:24 masak I wonder if http://twitter.com/2mad4milk/status/24759067704 is representative of a common sentiment among Perl 5 developers. :)
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10:37 * moritz_ likes   for %hash { and then using .key and .value }
10:37 masak I like it too, but I keep forgetting about it :)
10:38 moritz_ that's why I remind you :-)
10:38 masak thank you :)
10:47 masak today's plan: finish the conversion of the blog content, write skeleton outlines for my two talks at OSDC.fr, sniff at Web.pm in order to become less averse to digging into the last week of it.
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11:01 masak I'm looking for a "this line is too long but shouldn't really be broken here" symbol. I found ↩ -- any other suggestions?
11:13 moritz_ .u #
11:13 phenny U+0023 NUMBER SIGN (#)
11:13 moritz_ .u ↩
11:13 phenny U+21A9 LEFTWARDS ARROW WITH HOOK (↩)
11:13 moritz_ masak: you could take a look at what the book uses
11:13 moritz_ might be the same
11:13 masak good idea; I will.
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11:29 masak didn't find any line continuation characters in the book.
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11:48 mberends masak: digging into Web.pm is what I had in mind for our Swedish-Dutch Perl6 Summit :)
11:48 masak excellent. I'm all for that.
11:49 masak best I can do to prepare that is probably to get as much talk prepping out of the way as possible before that.
11:49 mberends ok, wfm
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11:50 mberends I bottled out of giving a talk at osdc.fr, btw :/
11:52 masak 'bottle out of'?
11:52 mberends 'chickened out'
11:53 masak oh, ok.
11:53 mberends british colloquialism
11:56 masak you seem to have been busy-ish lately; more difficult to plan talks then, perhaps.
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11:59 mberends aye, but October 2-10 is reserved exclusively for Perl 6
12:00 flussence my sticking-spectest_smolder-in-a-crontab idea didn't work so well :(
12:01 flussence the box froze half an hour after starting apparently
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12:11 moritz_ flussence: I strongly recommend a script that sets an ulimit, and only the spectests
12:13 flussence I'd probably be better off doing them on my desktop instead, that's got more RAM than I know what to do with...
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12:17 moritz_ finnaly I wrote a reply: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=860630
12:23 masak moritz_++ # I agree.
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12:24 masak more generally, Perl 6 likes to put very powerful tools just out of reach of the oneliner scripter, to be used when you need them. OO, grammars, slangs, meta-OO...
12:24 Juerd Besides that, proper OO in modules makes writing those 300 line scripts easier too.
12:26 masak that said, Perl 6 does trade a little bit of looseness on the low end for gains further on.
12:26 masak things like "don't put an infix '<' next to a term, because Perl 6'll think it's a postcircumfix"
12:28 Juerd But with the mandatory whitespace it does *look* a lot looser :)
12:28 Juerd I'll be happy to see less tight crammed code
12:29 masak maybe "looser" in the sense of "more air".
12:29 Juerd Yes :)
12:29 masak but not "looser" in the sense of "I can write whatever I want".
12:29 Juerd Well, you can't make stuff up and expect it to work, so that was never possible anyway.
12:30 masak I'm not complaining, mind. I'm just talking about tradeoffs.
12:30 moritz_ colomon: re http://justrakudoit.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/regretting-my-actions/ I think you could factor out a deep_flatten sub or so
12:31 moritz_ colomon: which flattens the first level of itemized arrays from a slurpy arg
12:31 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = [1, 2], [3, 4]; say @a>>.flat.perl
12:31 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«([1, 2], [3, 4])␤»
12:31 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = [1, 2], [3, 4]; say @a>>.list.perl
12:32 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«([1, 2], [3, 4])␤»
12:32 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = [1, 2], [3, 4]; say @a.map({@($_)}).flat.perl
12:32 Juerd rakudo: my @a = [1, 2], [3, 4]; say @a.flat.perl
12:32 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4)␤»
12:32 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«[[1, 2], [3, 4]]␤»
12:33 Juerd Now to find out which output belongs to which code :)
12:33 Juerd Yours first, I guess
12:33 moritz_ indeed
12:33 * Juerd apparently doesn't understand what .flat does
12:33 moritz_ .flat on an array or capture only flattens parcels
12:34 Juerd Oh
12:34 moritz_ rakudo: say (<a b>, <c d>).perl
12:34 moritz_ rakudo: say (<a b>, <c d>).flat.perl
12:34 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«(("a", "b"), ("c", "d"))␤»
12:34 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«("a", "b", "c", "d")␤»
12:34 moritz_ however I thougth that [1, 2].flat.perl would return (1, 2)
12:34 moritz_ *thought
12:34 moritz_ rakudo: say [1, 2].flat.perl
12:35 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«[1, 2]␤»
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13:13 colomon rakudo: my @a = [1, 2], [3, 4]; say @a>>.iterator>>.list.flat.perl
13:13 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4)␤»
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13:23 jnthn ahojte, #perl6
13:23 colomon \o
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13:27 moritz_ oh hai
13:28 thundergnat hi perl6
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13:28 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
13:29 thundergnat moritz_: there is a minor typo in the perl6 book in subs-and-sigs.
13:29 moritz_ thundergnat: which one?
13:29 thundergnat In the Pairs table, beverage is spelled 'tea' and 'tee'
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13:30 colomon reminds me, there is a repeated paragraph in the grammar section of the book.  (or at least, there was as of the last PDF.)
13:30 moritz_ indeed, thanks
13:30 moritz_ thundergnat: thanks, fixed
13:31 moritz_ colomon: PerlJam++ did a sweep through that chapter recently; might be worth checking whether he fixed it
13:31 thundergnat Also, the code markup for Pair in the table legend is being passed through to the pdf.
13:31 colomon starts "Regexes inside a grammar do not need a scope declarator,"
13:32 thundergnat rendering as C<Pair>
13:33 moritz_ colomon: that sentence doesn't seem to be in the source at all
13:33 wamba left #perl6
13:33 moritz_ at HEAD
13:33 colomon latest PDF (that I've found anyway) must be behind HEAD.  :)
13:33 moritz_ indeed
13:33 moritz_ I'll boot my Debian/Squeeze box later today and build a fresh one
13:34 moritz_ can't build on my laptop :(
13:35 dalek book: 4ac3d50 | moritz++ | src/subs-n-sigs.pod:
13:35 dalek book: [subs-n-sigs] typo noticed by thundergnat++
13:35 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/4ac3d50a997271987cca7a57b1fdfaf5d012839f
13:36 pythonian4000 is now known as pythonian4000afk
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13:51 LaVolta did someone submit this article (http://www.riffraff.info/2007/5/20/a-spell-corrector-in-perl6-part-3) to reddit or * :)
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13:59 moritz_ http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1s5m6/a_spell_corrector_in_perl6_part_3/?already_submitted=true
14:00 moritz_ I've also submitted it the perl reddit now: http://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/dfmq2/a_spell_corrector_in_perl_6_part_3_of_3/
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14:07 LaVolta cool :)
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14:13 masak I must confess that that blog post looks more like 2010 Perl 6 than 2007 Perl 6.
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14:13 colomon stupid wi-fi
14:14 LaVolta yes it is...and it's still a valuable post, i guess Peter Norvig should put that under "Perl 6" :)
14:15 masak I guess what I'm wondering is... how come the date both in the URL and the post itself is 2007?
14:19 moritz_ maybe updated?
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14:20 colomon_ is now known as colomon
14:20 gfldex std: sub infix:<>>-<<>(Hash %a, Hash %b){ return Mu; };
14:20 p6eval std : OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $starter in concatenation (.) or string at /opt/perl-5.12.1/lib/site_perl/5.12.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value $stopper in concatenation (.) or string at /opt/perl-5.12.1/lib/site_perl/5.12.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitial…
14:21 hercynium left #perl6
14:21 gfldex how do i overload >>-<< ?
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14:24 colomon_ is now known as colomon
14:25 masak gfldex: use » « outermost.
14:25 gfldex std: sub infix:>>>>-<<<<(Hash %a, Hash %b){ return Mu; };
14:25 p6eval std : OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Malformed block at /tmp/f3ufkwbXFP line 1:␤------> [32msub infix:[33m⏏[31m>>>>-<<<<(Hash %a, Hash %b){ return Mu; [0m␤    expecting any of:␤     coloncircumfix␤   signature␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 116m␤»
14:26 masak gfldex: sorry, meant « ». the important thing is not to use the same symbols as inside.
14:27 gfldex std: sub infix:<<>>-<<>>(Hash %a, Hash %b){ return Mu; };
14:27 p6eval std : OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $starter in concatenation (.) or string at /opt/perl-5.12.1/lib/site_perl/5.12.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value $stopper in concatenation (.) or string at /opt/perl-5.12.1/lib/site_perl/5.12.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitial…
14:27 gfldex rakudo: sub infix:<<>>-<<>>(Hash %a, Hash %b){ return Mu; };
14:28 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
14:28 colomon gfldex: why do you want to overload >>-<<?
14:29 moritz_ gfldex: try infix:«>>-<<»
14:29 gfldex it would simplyfy a lot what i am doing
14:30 gfldex moritz_: does not work either
14:32 moritz_ if you overload infix:<->, and mark your operator as 'our', the >>-<< should pick up your operator
14:33 gfldex i will try that
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14:36 gfldex moritz_: Nominal type check failed for parameter '%a'; expected Associative[Hash] but got Num instead
14:36 gfldex :(
14:37 pythonian4000afk is now known as pythonian4000
14:37 moritz_ it's a bit hard to diagnose without seeing the full code
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14:42 gfldex moritz_: i want to do something like this: http://gist.github.com/585725
14:43 gfldex if i could overload the hyperoparator i could handle all cases myself
14:53 moritz_ hm
14:55 gfldex i could try to overload infix:<*,-,+,/> too but that feels kinda wrong
14:59 * moritz_ doesn't have a good idea at the moment
14:59 pythonian4000 is now known as pythonian4000afk
15:01 gfldex is there a spectest for overloading hyperoperators?
15:02 thundergnat left #perl6
15:03 flussence trying to add -1 «*« %stock doesn't work either :(
15:04 flussence well it works, but any key not listed in %stock vanishes from the list entirely
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15:11 moritz_ rakudo: say (^-2)
15:11 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«␤»
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15:20 masak just found this: http://lolcathost.org/b/intro-p6/IntroPerl6.html
15:20 masak looks like a nice summary.
15:21 * jnthn was just about to point out that masak had pasted a link to localhost...
15:22 masak if it were, I sure hope I'd have recognized the page :)
15:23 jnthn :)
15:25 jnthn oh noes, hunger strikes!
15:25 * jnthn pauses the solo hackfest to get some noms
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15:34 TimToady colomon: don't need temp arrays--something like:  make do for @( $<line_of_music> )>>.ast -> @line { @line }
15:35 TimToady for loops return their list of values already
15:35 * moritz_ likes "make do for"
15:36 * TimToady is thinking about generalizing make to set the return value of any function without actually returning
15:36 thundergnat left #perl6
15:36 * colomon has no idea why he didn't at least do gather / take instead of ugly push.
15:37 moritz_ because push is actually faster? :-)
15:37 TimToady most of the gather/takes in rosettacode have turned out to be redundant with the loop's return value
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15:46 sECuRE before i do some unnecessary work: are you aware that in parrot/rakudo from rakudo-star 2010.08 there is no IPv6 support? do you accept patches for that or is there already some work in progress?
15:47 moritz_ we are aware; we'll surely accept patches to Rakudo
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15:47 sECuRE i’d need to modify parrot aswell
15:47 moritz_ and I also heard that the parrot folks think that IPv6 support is a laudable goal
15:47 moritz_ so I think the chances are pretty good
15:48 sECuRE alright, let’s start hacking :)
15:48 moritz_ there's a #parrot on irc.perl.org
15:48 s1n joined #perl6
15:50 masak sECuRE++
16:00 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
16:02 masak morning, pmichaud
16:02 jnthn oh hai, pmichaud
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16:23 lue o hai o/
16:24 jnthn o/ lue
16:25 masak lue: \o
16:37 lue .oO[ Once Perl 6 can use Ruby files, I'd be glad do help out with Diaspora :) ]
16:37 masak Rakudo could, once.
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16:43 dalek ecosystem: da9bc8f | supernovus++ | projects.list:
16:43 dalek ecosystem: Fixed exemel definition, added the rest of my active projects.
16:43 dalek ecosystem: review: http://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/da9bc8fa537b6ccfadeccc49604d68bab30d26b6
16:44 lue .oO[ Or I could learn Ruby itself... nah, language learning takes too long, and it'd only be for one thing ]
16:44 makkksimal is now known as makkksimal_off
16:44 lue I'm guessing it could in its alpha days?
16:44 makkksimal_off is now known as makkksimal
16:50 lue afk
16:56 masak it was during the alpha days, but I think it might have stopped working again before the big switch to ng.
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17:40 moritz_ seen KyleHa
17:40 aloha KyleHa was last seen in #perl6 13 days 16 hours ago saying "I was thinking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roast_(comedy)".
17:41 cj joined #perl6
17:45 * masak .oO( famous last words... )
17:45 dalek roast: 280ebde | moritz++ | S32-list/reverse.t:
17:45 dalek roast: test for RT #77914, .reverse shoudl flatten parcels
17:45 dalek roast:
17:45 dalek roast: Also removes some non-informative Pod
17:45 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/280ebdecb2c27f6e27a9c74140c91f461b95f10e
17:45 dalek roast: 8c3cfd3 | moritz++ | S02-builtin_data_types/hash.t:
17:45 dalek roast: test for RT #75868, Match objects as Hash keys
17:45 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/8c3cfd3736de11047d6041384bfa9c8e043c7533
17:49 sECuRE ok, first step done:
17:49 sECuRE Connecting to [::1]:5984
17:49 sECuRE HTTP/1.1 200 OK
17:50 rgrau_` left #perl6
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17:51 dalek roast: 5ca3dae | moritz++ | S02-builtin_data_types/array.t:
17:51 dalek roast: test for RT #57790, scalars indexed with [1] should return a Failure
17:51 moritz_ \o/
17:51 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5ca3dae8bbf33a3e051a2e5389bea2c68c1b3448
17:51 moritz_ sECuRE: ship it!
17:51 sECuRE nah, still a lot missing ;)
17:51 sECuRE i want to have at least bind() and accept() working aswell
17:51 moritz_ release early, release often :-)
17:51 sECuRE yes, but at the moment it’s only getaddrinfo and connect
17:52 sECuRE and testcases are missing
17:52 moritz_ rakudo: my $x; $x &&= 5; say $x
17:52 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«5␤»
17:52 moritz_ somebody please confirm that this is wrong
17:53 moritz_ rakudo: my $x; $x = $x && 5;
17:53 p6eval rakudo a204ba:  ( no output )
17:53 moritz_ rakudo: my $x; $x = $x && 5; say $x
17:53 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
17:53 flussence && is the same as in p5, right?
17:53 moritz_ yes
17:53 jnthn moritz_: Looks wrong to me.
17:53 zulon left #perl6
17:53 flussence rakudo: my $x; say ?$x;
17:53 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:53 flussence looks wrong to me.
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17:56 dalek roast: 519bef8 | moritz++ | S03-operators/short-circuit.t:
17:56 dalek roast: some basic tests for RT #77864, &&=, ||= etc. One of them fails
17:56 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/519bef8c25fae4227ae9676f84da410b39291357
17:58 rgrau_`` left #perl6
18:01 moritz_ I see KyleHa++ has switched his mail reporter to 'roast' already
18:02 dalek roast: 6a09536 | moritz++ | S03-operators/binding-scalars.t:
18:02 dalek roast: test for RT #77462: binding should have list assignment precedence
18:02 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/6a095360415445b153a46db4eb3c892876a0659f
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18:03 moritz_ 8 remaining tickets that needs test, but could be closed otherwise
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18:11 masak nom &
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18:21 moritz_ Carcassonne &
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18:56 dalek 6model: 3ccafcd | jnthn++ | parrot/src/ (5 files):
18:56 dalek 6model: Remove all the Parrot sketching stuff from 6model reop; everything that could be extracted from here has been, and development is now taking place in nom branch of the nqp-rx repository.
18:56 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/3ccafcdce726be328279ec101bd5f2e6c499fb33
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19:00 makkksimal_off is now known as makkksimal
19:05 nperez_ is now known as nperez
19:10 sorear good * #perl6
19:11 sorear lichtkind: ping.  sorry I'm late
19:13 lichtkind sorear: everything is fine
19:13 lichtkind so we talk later?
19:13 sorear not now?
19:14 lichtkind sorear: i thought you are now late for something else
19:14 lichtkind moritz_: would it be possible to set up a chatbot for wiki changes?
19:15 sorear No, I'm late for you.
19:15 sorear We agreed on an hour ago.
19:16 lichtkind sorear: yes but i was writing currently anyway
19:16 lichtkind im always busy
19:17 amkrankruleuen joined #perl6
19:18 lichtkind so how you came up with the name?
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19:23 lichtkind sorear: i mean you :)
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19:27 sorear I asked masak++
19:31 sorear after a few minutes of brainstorming, he mentioned 'nie mas čas', and I butchered it into niecza
19:36 lichtkind sorear: but thats slovak and masak comes from somewhere in north i thought :)
19:38 jnthn lichtkind: There was a joke video masak++ showed me on Youtube once where a Czech song had been annotated with Swedish words that they sounded like.
19:39 jnthn lichtkind: We've since made endless puns based around this. "my mame čas" was mis-heard as "nemame čas" by me when I first listended to the video, and I think the name niecza was derived from that. :-)
19:40 jnthn (Yes, I know, it's insane. :-))
19:40 * lichtkind understands now
19:40 lichtkind not insane
19:40 lichtkind but not as funny as zavolaj
19:41 jnthn Zavolaj is only the imperative form of "to call" :P
19:42 lichtkind yes but it stand for native call interface
19:42 M_o_C left #perl6
19:42 jnthn Thus the name :-)
19:42 lichtkind and while you where in bratislave the natives called "zavolaj"
19:42 lichtkind it was her communication interface
19:43 lichtkind genious
19:43 jnthn lol, you just managed to do a Slovak case declension while writing english. :-D
19:43 jnthn (in bratislave)++ :-)
19:43 lichtkind its my mother tonge !
19:43 lichtkind english is just my third lang
19:44 jnthn :-)
19:44 PhatEddy joined #perl6
19:45 lichtkind indeed funny :)
19:45 lichtkind sorear: still around?
19:45 fab_ joined #perl6
19:46 sorear yes
19:46 lichtkind great so name is clear even the cz in it leads the way
19:47 lichtkind so i read its about runtime improvements
19:47 fab_ left #perl6
19:47 lichtkind you tring out a new architecture?
19:48 lichtkind trying
19:48 PhatEddy The rakudo.org web site seems to be down.  I can ping the domain but safari complains the "the server unexpectedly dropped the connection".
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19:51 Kodi rakudo: say (+(0.Int)).WHAT; say (+(0.Int + 0.Int)).WHAT;
19:51 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«Int()␤Num()␤»
19:51 Kodi Is that a bug? If so, is it known?
19:55 sorear lichtkind: no, I'm using i386 like nearly everyone else here
19:56 lichtkind sorear: no i mean software architecture of niecza
19:56 lichtkind i mean the german sense of the word architecture :)
19:56 sorear I don't really have one
19:56 sorear Or rather, I'm changing it daily
19:56 lichtkind meaning the logical structure of the compiler
19:56 sorear I'm not stuck to a single underlying layout like Rakudo is
19:57 lichtkind so you searching more for single ideas
19:57 lichtkind not to proof a concept
19:57 sorear I'm trying to build a working compiler.  The structure is secondary
19:58 sorear often I have to change the structure to get things done
19:58 lichtkind but then you could join rakuda do
19:58 sorear I tried that once.  Didn't work out.
19:58 lichtkind :)
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20:18 sECuRE alright, now i can get the effective remote socket address :)
20:20 lichtkind sorear: i cant comprehent how niecza cant have an architecture?
20:21 sorear lichtkind: it has one, but it's not an important part of the plan
20:21 sorear Rakudo has an externally imposed architecture which it must follow
20:21 sorear niecza's architecture is an internal thing, and I like to change it often
20:22 lichtkind interesting
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20:56 lichtkind but nieczka uses rakudo as platform or something else?
20:56 hirschnase left #perl6
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21:01 flussence lichtkind: niecza uses .Net
21:02 dalek rakudo: 12088a8 | KodiB++ | src/core/Temporal.pm:
21:02 dalek rakudo: [core/Temporal] Fixed RT #77910 (DateTime attributes like .hour should always be Ints).
21:02 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/12088a851a737270bdd286513039a2c0b9995fd4
21:02 flussence nothing to do with rakudo/parrot at all
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21:04 lichtkind flussence: so .net has also some lex/yacc tools?
21:06 dalek roast: a32217d | KodiB++ | S32-temporal/DateTime.t:
21:06 dalek roast: [DateTime.t] Added tests for RT #77910.
21:06 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a32217d59ab879347a7f6773faa8a39b7249ec03
21:06 flussence I don't think it does, better to ask someone who knows it...
21:07 jnthn I believe Niecza uses its own grammar engine, just as Rakudo does (e.g. the one in nqp-rx)
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21:09 lichtkind jnthn: thanks
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21:33 moritz_ rakudo: say ~(1..6).roll(10)
21:33 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«5 3 4 4 6 3 4 3 5 1␤»
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21:36 rurban rakudo.org down?
21:37 moritz_ yep
21:37 rurban only for short?
21:38 moritz_ it's the first report I've heard
21:40 moritz_ Kodi++ # datetime hacking
21:40 moritz_ rurban++ # rakudo packaging
21:40 moritz_ sECuRE++ # IPv6 hacking
21:41 moritz_ enough karma give for today :-)
21:41 rurban I thought it should be time for a new star release somewhen. and I'm just testing the new icu-4.5.1
21:41 rurban Before I only had libicu38
21:42 jnthn BTW, a lot of my commits over the coming weeks are going to be to the branch http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commits/nom
21:42 moritz_ jnthn: then we should track that...
21:42 jnthn If there's interest, it could be added to the things dalek reports on by $people-with-ability
21:42 moritz_ jnthn: you are one of them :-)
21:42 jnthn Oh?
21:42 moritz_ rurban: I guess on Thursday there'll be another Star release
21:43 moritz_ jnthn: it's not yet documented properly, but there's a config file in the mu repo that controls dalek
21:43 rurban good. parrot is fine with my new icu, but I wanted to test rakudo-star also
21:44 jnthn moritz_: ah, oik
21:44 jnthn er, ok :-)
21:44 jnthn moritz_: I'm deep in meta-model hackery at the moment, but feel free to add now or I can later :-)
21:44 moritz_ jnthn: I will
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21:47 moritz_ rakudo: say Q:PIR { %r = box 5 }
21:47 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«5␤»
21:47 moritz_ sECuRE: see above
21:47 sECuRE alright
21:48 dalek mu: b65de19 | moritz++ | misc/dalek-conf.json:
21:48 dalek mu: [dalek] track nqp-rx/nom
21:48 dalek mu: review: http://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/b65de19458b7ea9eb9c46ac3d491a23b5d811f3e
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21:53 moritz_ rakudo: enum A <b c>; enum A <b c>;
21:53 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Contextual $*PKGDECL not found␤»
21:53 moritz_ std: enum A <b c>; enum A <b c>;
21:53 p6eval std : OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'A' (see line 1) at /tmp/nv2tUGIUEQ line 1:␤------> [32menum A <b c>; enum A[33m⏏[31m <b c>;[0m␤Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'b' (see line 1) at /tmp/nv2tUGIUEQ line 1:␤------> [32menum A <b c>; enum A <b c>[33…
21:53 * moritz_ submits rakudobug
21:53 moritz_ sECuRE++ found it
21:55 moritz_ rakudo: sub a { }; sub a { };
21:55 p6eval rakudo a204ba: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Can not re-declare sub &a without declaring it multi at line 22, near ";"␤»
22:07 * moritz_ should wait for the spectest to finish before pushing patches :-)
22:08 jnthn moritz_: I've pushed a couple of patches to the branch - we'll see if dalek spots 'em.
22:08 dalek rakudo: e59e96d | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
22:08 dalek rakudo: check name clashes for enum names
22:08 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e59e96d24e7aee6f3b441af11ff68d6669e26d6a
22:10 moritz_ jnthn: I don't know how often the config file is read, so even if it doesn't pick up the feed yet, it might do so tomorrow
22:10 jnthn moritz_: aha, OK
22:14 dalek rakudo: ccde8dc | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
22:14 dalek rakudo: run enums/basic.t
22:14 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ccde8dc0d0ba784c6c857b68506fee7fb3b3b91c
22:14 dalek roast: 895d239 | moritz++ | S12-enums/basic.t:
22:14 dalek roast: fudge enums/basic.t for rakudo
22:14 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/895d239b96ff27de3d0831ec808dffb287dff3b0
22:15 * moritz_ -> sleep
22:15 sECuRE sleep tight
22:15 hercynium left #perl6
22:17 sECuRE "Could not find sub !YOU_ARE_HERE" < what exactly does this error message mean? (i’m compiling rakudo after changes to IO/Socket/INET.pm
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22:47 TimToady YOU_ARE_HERE is what the setting thinks your mainline code is called
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: f8aeada | jnthn++ | build/Makefile.in:
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Stub in stuff to build dynops and dynpmcs in the Makefile.in.
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/f8aeada43595937f38007d7dfa2abc1a73a0dc78
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: f8a9b8b | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Stub in STable structure and PMC.
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/f8a9b8b5d8cf8460fbdaa9213ae42e3564cd7fa6
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: a87a3a3 | jnthn++ | src/pmc/ (2 files):
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Stub in REPR and RakudoObject PMCs. Also group name should be nqp.
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/a87a3a32014b25e4136b17a78e081afd5af8ef31
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: 4f0ee8c | jnthn++ | src/pmc/repr.pmc:
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Oops, forgot REPR stub in last commit.
22:48 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/4f0ee8c07ca13dfef32c8437d39d873c28eda2cd
22:48 dalek left #perl6
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22:49 jnthn d'oh, it tried to report everything from this morning. :-)
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23:34 dalek nqp-rx/nom: af90644 | jnthn++ | src/metamodel/knowhow_bootstrapper.c:
23:34 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Implement (representation-polymorphic) type creation by KnowHOWs. Also implement add_method and find_method in the KnowHOW meta-object. This means we can create KnowHOWs, add methods do them and dispatch to them.
23:34 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/af906441aa25cd9b905fd87ec8edad78770013ba
23:35 jnthn *to them :-)
23:51 dalek nqp-rx/nom: f13c33a | jnthn++ | src/metamodel/knowhow_bootstrapper.c:
23:51 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Add .^compose for KnowHOWs.
23:51 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/f13c33a2d49c2dcdf2389a204e10795663b7aeb9
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