Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-10-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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07:34 diakopter hello, world
07:34 sorear Hello.
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07:37 nymacro hallo
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08:22 masak morning, #perl6
08:22 jnthn lolitsmasak!
08:23 masak and lol, it's breakfast!
08:23 jnthn \o/
08:24 Trashlord sure is
08:24 colomon \o
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08:25 sorear hi maska!
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08:34 * diakopter wants breakfast at 1:30 a.m.
08:34 * dukeleto likes breakfast Any time
08:34 dalek sprixel: ddfc90e | diakopter++ | sprixel/ (4 files):
08:34 dalek sprixel: refactor the framebuilder to copy the framechain on
08:34 dalek sprixel: closure creation instead of on closure invocation.
08:34 dalek sprixel: Lots of cleanup/documentation of that routine.
08:34 dalek sprixel: review: http://github.com/diakopter/sprixel/commit​/ddfc90e43215e94e1d2656edf2ef2414d158cde3
08:36 sorear "copy" the framechain?
08:36 sorear I never considered such a thing
08:43 dukeleto has anyone considered making something like hoogle for perl 6?
08:44 * diakopter googles hoogle
08:45 dukeleto diakopter: it basically is a search engine of haskell function signatures
08:45 diakopter so I see.
08:45 dukeleto diakopter: you give it a signature, it shows you all function that have that signature
08:45 diakopter it's neat
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08:46 mathw Morning
08:46 sorear oh yeah hoogle.  I remember laughing at ndm when he proposed that and calling it useless.
08:46 mathw dukeleto: I always get confused - Hayoo is not the same as Hoogle, is it? (useful though)
08:47 diakopter sorear: yeah, copying the framechain instead of doing traversals on every load/store of a local/arg.
08:48 sorear diakopter: Have you considered using a display?
08:49 diakopter sorear: maybe, you'll have to help me out with your CS terminology
08:49 dukeleto mathw: nope, hadn't seen that. very similar though
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08:51 masak dukeleto: been wanting to explore the idea of a Perl 6 hoogle, but haven't actually done so.
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08:51 masak as with everything else, starting small and getting something to work quickly is probably the ticket.
08:52 dukeleto masak: it could be a useful interface to the periodic chart of operators
08:53 diakopter sorear: ok, I read about them some.. how is the framechain not already a display?
08:53 sorear because it's a chain
08:53 masak dukeleto: here's where I muse about it last time: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2010-09-12#i_2816117
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08:54 sorear a display is a compromise implementation
08:54 diakopter sorear: it's only a chain conceptually. it's implemented as a hidden class with a slot for each outer frame.
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08:54 diakopter sorear: basically an array of pointers
08:54 sorear diakopter: so frame.outer5.field?
08:54 diakopter right.
08:55 sorear that's called ... a display
08:55 diakopter oh goody.
08:55 diakopter hence my question :)
08:57 dukeleto masak: a perl 6 hoogle is indeed a great idea. I will think about how to get a small but usuable version implemented.
08:57 masak ++dukeleto
09:02 jnthn Can easily parse out all the siggies using the Perl 6 grammar with custom akshun methods.
09:03 masak I wonder how much post-processing will need to be made.
09:03 masak there's also the tricky question of expectations versus reality.
09:04 masak if I enter 'Str --> Array', for example, I might expect &split to fall out. but &split is more like 'Cool, Cool --> List'
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09:12 dukeleto masak: i guess a search filter can be strict or transitive, or some other fancy word
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09:17 masak this is just a guess, but it probably needs to be non-strict in two ways:
09:18 masak (1) allowing for more parameters in the result than in the search (Hoogle already does that)
09:18 masak (2) applying some type fudging so that people typing in 'Array' get 'List' results, and people tying in 'Str' get 'Cool' results as well
09:19 masak results can be sorted according to some metric of how much fudging of different kinds was needed.
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09:34 sorear rakudo: role Stop[$str] { method stop { $str } }; (2 but Stop["hi"]).stop.say
09:35 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«hi␤»
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09:51 * sorear out
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10:15 * mathw sits, quietly hating subversion
10:21 cxreg parrot?
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10:45 moritz_ good localtime
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11:54 takadonet morning all
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11:59 masak this seems to have been @gotofritz' reaction: http://twitter.com/gotofritz/status/26733215026
11:59 masak and more from @sixohsix: http://twitter.com/sixohsix/status/26733732601
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12:01 jnthn ...waiting? Nah, I'm patching.
12:01 jnthn Idiot.
12:01 masak :)
12:01 masak yeah, I don't feel like replying any more.
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12:02 jnthn .oO( I'm patchin', not bitchin' )
12:02 masak we're "touchy" about people disseminating lies about Perl 6? fair enough.
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12:03 rjbs It would be nice to have so much free time that I could waste it on bashing projects I don't care about.
12:03 rjbs ...but I'd probably use that time for reading a book instead.
12:04 jnthn I find people who prefer to tear other people's work down rather than do something creative just rather sad.
12:05 masak I guess it underlies the mechanics behind trolling. easier to get reactions from people by being a jerk.
12:19 masak there's also a thin line between being actively mean and just being misinformed. it's easy to forget from within the echo chamber how little is known about Perl 6 on the outside.
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12:29 moritz_ rakudo: sub f { 1, 2, 4}; .say for f
12:29 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«1␤2␤4␤»
12:29 moritz_ rakudo: sub f { 1, 2, 4}; .say for my $ = f
12:29 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«1 2 4␤»
12:30 moritz_ rakudo: sub f { 1, 2, 4}; .say for (my $ = f).list
12:30 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«1␤2␤4␤»
12:31 masak rakudo: sub f { 1, 2, 4}; .say for $(f)
12:31 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«1␤2␤4␤»
12:31 masak hm.
12:31 masak that's the first one I consider wrong.
12:31 * moritz_ wonders if  m:g/x/  really desugars to  do { $/ = $_.match(/x/, :g); $/.list }
12:31 moritz_ masak: agreed
12:31 * masak submits rakudobug
12:32 jnthn rakudo: sub f { 1, 2, 4}; .say for f.item
12:32 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«1␤2␤4␤»
12:32 masak that one too.
12:32 jnthn same issue
12:32 jnthn $(...) calls .item
12:32 masak *nod*
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12:38 moritz_ rakudo: say (my $ = (1, 2, 3)).PARROT
12:38 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«Perl6Scalar->Seq␤»
12:39 moritz_ rakudo: say (1, 2, 3).item.PARROT
12:39 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«Seq␤»
12:39 moritz_ that's the underlying problem
12:39 masak rakudo: say ($(1, 2, 3)).PARROT
12:39 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«Seq␤»
12:39 masak yes, it's explicitly showing that what ought to happen isn't.
12:40 moritz_ our multi sub item(@values) { @values.Seq
12:40 moritz_ }
12:40 jnthn What would cause it to be containerized?
12:40 moritz_ let me just say "hu"
12:40 masak by all means.
12:41 moritz_ (and jnthn++ last touched this code, in March)
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12:42 jnthn Huh, that'd mean it pre-dated the last list refactor...
12:42 moritz_ correct
12:42 jnthn In that caes it may well be bogus.
12:42 moritz_ (unless git blame is playing tricks on my)
12:43 jnthn No way of knowing if pmichaud++ missed it or chose to leave it as it is.
12:43 moritz_ jnthn: how would a correct wrapping in Perl6Scalar would look like?
12:43 jnthn moritz_: Good question.
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12:43 jnthn moritz_: I mean, one way is to assign it to one.
12:43 masak rakudo: sub is-palindrome($s) { $s eq $s.flip }; say is-palindrome('[]][') # pkrumins++, http://twitter.com/pkrumins/status/26744178147
12:43 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
12:43 jnthn But I think return is meant to decontainerize if it's not an l-lvalue sub.
12:44 masak I bet lue++ will like that one. :)
12:44 jnthn For now though it'd just work to change it to (my $ = @values.Seq) I guess
12:44 jnthn And then it'd return the container.
12:44 masak aye.
12:44 moritz_ jnthn: I don't quite understand the relation between itemization and containerization... care to explain?
12:44 moritz_ and why .Seq?
12:45 jnthn I see them as orgnogonal.
12:45 moritz_ why not just   my $ = @values  ?
12:45 jnthn Because in the previous list model a parcel would become a Seq in item context.
12:45 jnthn As I said, it may be bogus.
12:45 moritz_ but in this list model, there's no reason for it?
12:45 jnthn No idea.
12:45 moritz_ ok
12:45 jnthn I'm the wrong person to ask.
12:46 * moritz_ asks pmichaud
12:46 jnthn Hopefully pmichaud++ will get around to documenting the new list model soon. :-)
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13:14 mfollett rakudo: my @fib := (0,1,*+*...*)
13:14 p6eval rakudo 970243:  ( no output )
13:14 mfollett my @fib := (0,1,*+*...*); say @fib[3]
13:15 mfollett hrrm…didn't that used to work?
13:18 takadonet it does....
13:18 * takadonet looks at moritz_ and masak
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13:21 * moritz_ looks back
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13:23 moritz_ seen smash
13:23 aloha smash was last seen in #parrot 7 days 19 hours ago saying "http://github.com/mirrors/perl/tree/perl-1-maint".
13:24 moritz_ that's the URL I was looking for :-)
13:30 tadzik rakudo: my @fib := (0,1,*+*...*); say @fib[3]
13:30 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«2␤»
13:30 tadzik it does
13:30 tadzik rakudo: my @fib := (0,1,*+*...*); say @fib[30]
13:30 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«832040␤»
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13:39 mfollett If I just put 'my @fib := (0,1,*+*...*)' in the REPL it takes a bit and segfaults in * 2010.09, if I do 'my @fib := (0,1,*+*...*);say @fib[30]' then it works just fine
13:40 nymacro mfollett, probably because it is trying to output the result of the assignment on the REPL
13:41 mfollett nymacro: oh, hahah, that would make sense
13:41 mfollett nymacro++
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13:48 shortcircuit Is there a PIR implementation on top of JavaScript? I'd be nice to have an in-browser REPL.
13:48 shortcircuit Otherwise, is there anything PIR depends on that would make such an implementation impossible?
13:49 moritz_ you need much more for running Rakudo than PIR
13:49 moritz_ you need all the built-in PMCs, all the rakudo PMCs, all the opcodes...
13:49 shortcircuit Mm.
13:50 moritz_ the problem is that it'll be *very* slow
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13:50 * shortcircuit wonders what the shortest path to getting a working client-side, in-browser P6 REPL would be.
13:50 moritz_ it's probably much better to translate to JS on the POST level
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14:43 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
14:44 moritz_ oh hai pmichaud
14:44 colomon \o
14:44 moritz_ I implemented ss///, and then noticed that we don't have a 'samespace' function as backend yet :/
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14:51 moritz_ rakudo: say 'abc'.samecase('XYZ')
14:51 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«ABC␤»
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14:54 colomon rakudo: say 'abc'.samecase('XyZ')
14:54 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«AbC␤»
14:54 colomon rakudo: say 'abc'.samecase('ZyBot')
14:55 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«AbC␤»
14:55 colomon rakudo: say 'abcd'.samecase('ZyBot')
14:55 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«AbCd␤»
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15:03 dalek rakudo: 0dc4b80 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
15:03 dalek rakudo: A step towards handling ss///.
15:03 dalek rakudo:
15:03 dalek rakudo: This wires up the adverb generation for ss///, but doesn't introduce a
15:03 dalek rakudo: Cool.samespace() method yet, which is necessary as the backend.
15:03 dalek rakudo:
15:03 dalek rakudo: Includes a small refactor of compile time adverb handling.
15:03 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​dc4b806f8db45891374158483b1a46f0d1054fb
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15:20 smash hello everyone
15:20 moritz_ \o smash
15:20 moritz_ idea for the next "weekly" challenge: http://github.com/moritz/perlgeek.de​/blob/master/source/blog-source-en/p​erl-6/contribute-now-samespace.txt
15:20 moritz_ any comments?
15:22 pmichaud looking
15:23 pmichaud looks great
15:23 moritz_ thanks
15:23 pmichaud I'm spectesting a fix for Parcel.item now.
15:23 moritz_ (for looking)
15:24 smash updated http://gil.di.uminho.pt/use​rs/smash/rakudo-bench.html with the new rakudo star release
15:25 moritz_ so .pick got faster, and everything else a bit slower?
15:26 pmichaud I'm guessing strings got slower
15:26 pmichaud but that's really a guess
15:27 moritz_ startup time seems to be constant
15:27 smash i might run the script again during the night, to make sure nothing interefered with it last time i executed it
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15:28 smash moritz_: the graph scale can play nasty tricks here
15:28 pmichaud well, the numbers tell the tale
15:28 moritz_ actually startup time improved by nearly 10%
15:28 pmichaud it looks like the heavy scripts are running about 10% slower than previously
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15:29 pmichaud are there instructions somewhere about how to reproduce the numbers in these charts?
15:29 smash pmichaud: not yet, it's just a bunch of stupid scripts
15:30 pmichaud oh, the other thing that might've changed is gc
15:30 pmichaud smash: how many times do you run each script?
15:31 pmichaud oh, 10.
15:31 * pmichaud reads the page :-)
15:31 smash yes, 10 times
15:32 smash that's why it takes hours and hours to run
15:32 moritz_ pmichaud: I think the biggest GC changes were included after the parrot release
15:32 pmichaud okay
15:33 smash pmichaud: but i'm open to suggestions on how to run it
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15:35 moritz_ http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-​6/contribute-now-samespace.html lolIblogged
15:37 colomon smash++
15:37 colomon sorry I haven't gotten around to adding more benchmarks yet.
15:37 smash colomon: i haven't had the time to improve the harness yet :(
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15:51 dalek rakudo: 5ce8fcf | pmichaud++ | src/builtins/Parcel.pir:
15:51 dalek rakudo: Make sure Parcel.item returns an itemized Seq.  Addresses RT #78284, but it also seems to expose a bug in either .trans or S05-transliteration/trans.t .
15:51 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5​ce8fcfe541b6eb2426ea64247bf01998b0d5208
15:54 flussence so I went and did something useful: http://gist.github.com/617012
15:56 pmichaud seems expensive, though
15:56 moritz_ flussence: I'd prefer a solution that doesn't use s/// or .subst internally
15:56 pmichaud why not just comb self for \S+\ and then stitch it together ?
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15:57 pmichaud [~]  self.comb(\S+) Z $other.comb(\s+)
15:57 pmichaud oops, need /'s
15:57 moritz_ modulo length limits
15:57 moritz_ Z stops at the shortest list
15:57 pmichaud well, that can be fixed :-)
15:58 moritz_ sure; I just want to point out that it's not *that* trivial
15:58 pmichaud sure
15:58 pmichaud I'm just saying that's far better than repeated substitutions :-)
15:58 pmichaud and is the core of a better approach
15:59 pmichaud what should happen in the case where self has more components than $other ?
15:59 moritz_ ws should be copied unchanged
16:00 flussence should leading/trailing whitespace be changed to match, or is it only the contents of each whitespace that matters?
16:00 * moritz_ doesn't quite understand the question... example?
16:01 pmichaud rakudo: sub ss($str, $other) { ($str.comb(/\S+/) Z $other.comb(/\s+/)).join('') };   ss("a b c d", "x y\n\tz");   # first attempt
16:01 p6eval rakudo 970243:  ( no output )
16:01 pmichaud rakudo: sub ss($str, $other) { ($str.comb(/\S+/) Z $other.comb(/\s+/)).join('') };   say ss("a b c d", "x y\n\tz");   # first attempt
16:01 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«a b␤       ␤»
16:01 flussence If I had ' a\tb'.samespace('x\ny z'), should it come out as 'a\nb' or '\na b'?
16:02 pmichaud flussence: the latter
16:02 moritz_ pmichaud: we want to attract new committers, not activate overworked ones :-)
16:02 pmichaud moritz_: but the overworked ones need -Ofun too :)
16:02 flussence ok, that sounds much easier to implement
16:02 moritz_ pmichaud: sure :-)
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16:02 pmichaud and certainly I can prod the newer committers into an approach I'm more likely to accept :)
16:03 moritz_ rakudo: .say for [1, 2, 3].list
16:03 pmichaud perlcabal.org is still down?
16:03 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
16:03 Juerd pmichaud: Not that I know of.
16:03 * moritz_ doesn't understand why that .trans test fails
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16:03 pmichaud moritz_: I suspect it has something to do with the non-array pair being itemized now
16:03 moritz_ pmichaud: perlcabal works hear
16:03 Juerd pmichaud: Depends on what you mean, exactly, by the way. perlcabal.org in most contexts is an alias for feather1
16:04 moritz_ http://perlcabal.org/syn/ shows a nice HTML page
16:04 pmichaud oh, now it's working.
16:04 pmichaud A second ago I was getting "cannot connect to server"
16:04 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = [1, 2, 3] => [4, 5, 6]; .say for $x.key.list
16:04 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
16:05 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = [1, 2, 3] => [4, 5, 6]; .say for $x.value.list
16:05 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«4␤5␤6␤»
16:05 pmichaud I suspect those are unchanged
16:05 moritz_ pmichaud: the single pair is passed to a slurpy parameter, where its itemness shouldn't matter, IIRC
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16:05 pmichaud it's not the pair itself, but the arguments
16:05 pmichaud i.e.
16:06 moritz_ (yes, unchanged)
16:06 pmichaud rakudo:  my $x = (<1 2 3> => <4 5 6>);  .say for $x.key
16:06 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
16:06 pmichaud rakudo:  my $x = (<1 2 3> => <4 5 6>);  .say for $x.value
16:06 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«4 5 6␤»
16:07 pmichaud rakudo:  my $x = (<1 2 3> => <4 5 6>);  my $y = ([<1 2 3>] => [<4 5 6>]);   .say for $x.key.list; .say for $y.key.list;
16:07 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤1␤2␤3␤»
16:07 moritz_ that's the old rakudo version, and both seem fine to me
16:07 pmichaud rakudo:  my $x = (<1 2 3> => <4 5 6>);  my $y = ([<1 2 3>] => [<4 5 6>]);   .say for $x.value.list; .say for $y.value.list;
16:07 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«4␤5␤6␤4␤5␤6␤»
16:07 moritz_ rakudo: sub f($x) { return $x.list }; .say for f [1, 2, 3]
16:07 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
16:08 moritz_ rakudo: say [1, 2, 3] ~~ Iterable|Positional
16:08 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
16:09 pmichaud in the new rakudo,  <1 2 3>  as a key is being stringified, it seems.
16:09 moritz_ oh.
16:10 pmichaud rakudo:  my $x = (<1 2 3> => <4 5 6>);  my $y = ([<1 2 3>] => [<4 5 6>]);   say $x.key.WHAT;  say $y.key.WHAT;
16:10 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«Seq()␤Array()␤»
16:10 pmichaud that's the difference between the two
16:11 moritz_ also say Seq()\nArray()\n here (with newest rakudo)
16:11 pmichaud right, but the question is one of item/list context (more)
16:12 pmichaud rakudo:  say "abcxyz".trans( <x y z> => <X Y Z> );   # part 1
16:12 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«abcXYZ␤»
16:12 pmichaud rakudo:  say "abcxyz".trans( Seq.new(<x y z>).item => Seq.new(<X Y Z>).item );   # part 2
16:12 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«abcXYZ␤»
16:12 pmichaud huh
16:13 moritz_ rakudo:  my $x = (<1 2 3> => <4 5 6>);  my $y = ([<1 2 3>] => [<4 5 6>]);   say $x.key.PARROT;  say $y.key.PARROT;
16:13 p6eval rakudo 970243: OUTPUT«Perl6Scalar->Seq␤Perl6Scalar->Array␤»
16:13 moritz_ looks correct in both cases
16:13 moritz_ and the same on the new rakudo
16:16 pmichaud locally:
16:16 pmichaud > say "abcxyz".trans( < x y z > => <X Y Z> )
16:16 pmichaud abcX Y ZAny()Any()
16:17 pmichaud > my $x = (<x y z> => <X Y Z>);  .say for $x.value.list;
16:17 pmichaud X Y Z
16:18 * moritz_ tries a simple fix by guessing
16:24 pmichaud > my $x = ((1,2,3) => (4,5,6));  say $x.value.list
16:24 pmichaud 4 5 6
16:24 pmichaud > my $y = (a => (4,5,6));  say $y.value.list
16:24 pmichaud 456
16:24 pmichaud o_O
16:25 pmichaud > my $y = ('a' => (4,5,6));  say $y.value.list
16:25 pmichaud 4 5 6
16:25 pmichaud looks like the problem is somewhere in the definition of &infix:«=>»
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16:29 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/617072   # something to do with infix:«=>»
16:32 moritz_ hm... double Perl6Scalar somewhere?
16:32 pmichaud not finding one
16:32 pmichaud and that shouldn't matter in the case of .list anyway
16:33 pmichaud oh, very weird.
16:33 pmichaud (nopasting)
16:34 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/617081   # must be something in the binder
16:37 pmichaud or in the attribute initializer
16:37 moritz_ ./perl6 -e '.say for (1, 2, 3).item.item.list # does what I expect it to do
16:37 moritz_ ie three separate lines
16:37 pmichaud right
16:37 pmichaud it's something to do with the pair constructor
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16:38 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/617088   # pair constructor changes sense of $value somehow
16:40 pmichaud might be an issue with all constructors
16:41 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/617092   # problem with generic constructor
16:43 moritz_ so to summarize, you can't successfully .list on something that's returned from an attribute
16:43 pmichaud that appears to be the current problem, yes.
16:43 pmichaud which means the attribute isn't being initialized properly.
16:44 pmichaud assignment works properly, though.
16:44 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/617097   # assignment to an attribute works
16:46 moritz_ say XYZ.new(value => (1, 2, 3).item).value.list;
16:46 moritz_ 123
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16:47 moritz_ it really needs to be passed to a sub to trigger the bug
16:47 pmichaud I'm guessing the problem is BUILD/BUILDALL
16:47 pmichaud oh
16:47 pmichaud I suspect BUILD/BUILDALL isn't properly dereferencing before binding
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16:51 pmichaud hmmm, that doesn't appear to be it either.
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17:02 * moritz_ had this idea while listening to a podcast about designing board games
17:03 moritz_ can you construct a board game where you build a meta object system
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17:03 PerlJam moritz_: Perl 6 home edition?
17:03 moritz_ and in the end you get points if your system is powerful, but also if it integrates well with that of other players
17:03 moritz_ PerlJam: I thought more that you have some cards that describe very basic behaviour, and you can combine them somehow
17:04 moritz_ the problem is that I can't explain what a meta class is to at least 99.99% of the population
17:05 moritz_ so I'd need to construct some problem space that's isomorphic to meta classes, but closer to the real world
17:05 * moritz_ is now firmly convinced that he is crazy
17:05 PerlJam you know ... most games seem to be about competing with others.  There need to be more games where you are rewarded for communicating and cooperating with the other players.
17:05 moritz_ there are lots of those
17:06 moritz_ I know many games where you totally have to trade resources with other players to win
17:06 moritz_ and that trade usually involves good communication
17:07 PerlJam "There need to be *more* games ..."  :)
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17:07 moritz_ :-)
17:07 PerlJam and what does "win" mean anyway?
17:08 moritz_ (btw Germany has the biggest market world wide for board and card games)
17:08 PerlJam germany++
17:08 moritz_ PerlJam: it means marking one or more player with a virtual funny hat
17:09 PerlJam I think the whole idea of "winning" distorts people's thinking.  They usually end up thinking of it in terms of "doing better than someone else"
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17:12 dalek book: c66f847 | moritz++ | README:
17:12 dalek book: [README] link to PDFs; maettu++
17:12 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/c6​6f84730a425f73c5320157d0aa77b83de45586
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17:15 flussence alright, I gave this another shot: http://gist.github.com/617012
17:16 gfldex PerlJam: "win" means that you played better then in the last round
17:17 moritz_ gfldex: only under some very narrow certain conditions
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17:20 PerlJam I win! The last time I compared notes with everyone, I had more children than anyone else, ergo, I win.   ;)
17:20 * PerlJam wonders when the next round starts ...
17:20 moritz_ flussence: I like this much better... I think the re-matching with m:nth can be avoided if you obtain match objects from .comb in the first place
17:21 flussence ooh, I hadn't thought of that
17:21 moritz_ .comb(:match, $regex)
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17:22 moritz_ wait, it's matching against the other string...
17:23 moritz_ hm
17:23 moritz_ another idea
17:23 * PerlJam errands &
17:23 moritz_ first comb $other
17:23 moritz_ then self.split with a limit of @new-spaces - 1
17:24 moritz_ so you automatically get all excess spaces in the self in the last chunk
17:24 pmichaud right
17:24 pmichaud that's what I'm trying now :)
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17:27 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/617162   # samespace() using split and zip
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17:29 pmichaud probably want a +@new instead of @new in the split, though.
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17:33 moritz_ pmichaud: seem to mistreat trailing spaces
17:33 pmichaud that's possible, definitely
17:33 pmichaud anyway, anything that relies on :nth()  I'd consider to be sub-optimal
17:34 moritz_ flussence++ # both versions
17:34 moritz_ flussence++ # tests
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17:39 pmichaud afk, lunch
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18:01 flussence .oO( I wish vim had a "pipe syntax-highlighted text to stdout and exit" flag )
18:02 moritz_ flussence: Text::VimColor
18:03 moritz_ flussence: you can easily write such a wrapper with that perl module
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18:15 flussence moritz_++ # that worked great!
18:16 flussence one-liner I used, if anyone finds it useful:
18:16 flussence cat samespace.p6 | perl -MText::VimColor -E 'say Text::VimColor->new(string=>join("", STDIN->getlines),html_full_page=>1)->html' | elinks -dump -dump-color-mode 1 -dump-width $COLUMNS
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18:20 moritz_ flussence: I do the syntax hilighting on my blog with Text::VimColor
18:27 dukeleto moritz_: i was wondering what you did for that. It looks really good.
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18:30 moritz_ dukeleto: it was a major decision point while chosing the blog system
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18:45 sorear good * #perl6
18:45 * sorear is trying to think of a sane way to fake tweaks without implementing general multi methods
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19:03 dalek sprixel: 36d8db7 | diakopter++ | sprixel/ (2 files):
19:03 dalek sprixel: verify that simple arg binding works
19:03 dalek sprixel: review: http://github.com/diakopter/sprixel/commit​/36d8db77387a7ef1419269918d5049b8f181aec2
19:03 dalek sprixel: c718fb3 | diakopter++ | sprixel/ (4 files):
19:03 dalek sprixel: verify closures can be perlesque locals.
19:03 dalek sprixel: add new API shortcuts for closure creation & invocation.
19:03 dalek sprixel: review: http://github.com/diakopter/sprixel/commit​/c718fb342c6a02ad0733098a6c74b8b7203fc60b
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19:51 dalek sprixel: 131f5e8 | diakopter++ | sprixel/ (3 files):
19:51 dalek sprixel: verify that recursive nested string eval works.
19:51 dalek sprixel: review: http://github.com/diakopter/sprixel/commit​/131f5e85db0386b773d9641cf80dae0354eb4108
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20:16 sorear uh, why does Rakudo have a Role class
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20:16 sorear or rather, why is SomeRole ~~ Role
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20:17 moritz_ because the spec mentions Role in several places?
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20:18 sorear I expected that SomeRole.HOW ~~ Role
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20:24 sorear I don't see any mention of Role outside of S32
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20:28 moritz_ there's a mention in S03
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20:42 dalek rakudo: 668719b | moritz++ | src/ (3 files):
20:42 dalek rakudo: implement Cool.samecase, .subst(:samespace) and ss///
20:42 dalek rakudo:
20:42 dalek rakudo: Patch partly by flussence++
20:42 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​68719b579faacc807094ca2fb8c181a1d68359b
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20:44 dalek roast: 59b8c22 | moritz++ | S05-substitution/subst.t:
20:44 dalek roast: [subst.t] fix some tests, and unfudge them for rakudo
20:44 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/59​b8c22e6e1b4f73889c057d550472e7c5ec9fdf
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20:51 cosimo hi everyone
20:51 phenny cosimo: 28 Sep 06:25Z <moritz_> tell cosimo perl6-cache-memcached added. You also have commit access to perl6/ecosystem on github now, so you can do it yourself next time
20:51 cosimo moritz_: saw that, thanks!
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20:58 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'abcd'; $x ~~ s:g[bc] = '12'; say $x
20:58 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«a12d␤»
20:58 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'abcd'; $x ~~ s:g/bc/ = '12'; say $x
20:58 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "$x ~~ s:g/"␤»
20:59 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'abcd'; $x.subst('bc', '12', :g); say $x
20:59 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«abcd␤»
20:59 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'abcd'; $x.subst(/bc/, '12', :g); say $x
20:59 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«abcd␤»
20:59 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'abcd'; $x.subst(rx:/bc/, '12', :g); say $x
20:59 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
21:00 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'abcd'; $x.subst(rx[bc], '12', :g); say $x
21:00 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &rx␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/Lj3E_YbDvu␤»
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21:00 cosimo ook
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21:10 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'abcd'; $x ~~ s:g[bc] = '12'; say $x
21:10 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«a12d␤»
21:10 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'ab[cd'; $x ~~ s:g[< \[ >] = '12'; say $x
21:10 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &s:g[< \[ >]␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/r1qOxMHost␤»
21:11 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'ab[cd'; $x ~~ s:g[\[] = '12'; say $x
21:11 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«ab12cd␤»
21:11 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'ab[cd'; $x ~~ s:g[\[ | \]] = '12'; say $x
21:11 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«ab12cd␤»
21:11 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'ab[]cd'; $x ~~ s:g[\[ | \]] = '12'; say $x
21:11 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«ab1212cd␤»
21:11 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'ab[]cd'; $x ~~ s:g[\[ | \]] = ''; say $x
21:11 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«abcd␤»
21:12 cosimo so I can't use s:g[ < [] > ] to specify either '[' or ']' chars
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21:12 masak \o/
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21:17 cosimo masak: hi! have a question for you I think
21:17 cosimo 23:06 < cosimo> so I can't use s:g[ < [] > ] to specify either '[' or ']' chars?
21:17 cosimo but this works
21:17 sorear cosimo: you'd have better luck if you put a space between :g and [
21:17 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'ab[]cd'; $x ~~ s:g[\[ | \]] = ''; say $x
21:17 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«abcd␤»
21:18 sorear \o/ masak
21:18 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'ab[]cd'; $x ~~ s:g [<[]>] = ''; say $x
21:18 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«ab[]cd␤»
21:18 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'ab[]cd'; $x ~~ s:g [<\[\]>] = ''; say $x
21:18 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/_DhFATJW0h␤»
21:18 cosimo mmh
21:19 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'ab[]cd'; $x ~~ s:g [ < [] > ] = ''; say $x
21:19 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/3hwsewKMYO␤»
21:20 cosimo rakudo: my $x = 'ab[]cd'; $x ~~ s:g [ < \[\] > ] = ''; say $x
21:20 p6eval rakudo 5ce8fc: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/8OcrC5S4IS␤»
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21:23 masak pmichaud: re: #78284 -- if the problem in a ticket is fixed, but the fix exposes another (unrelated) problem, the ticket can still be closed, IMHO. (by opening a new ticket with the new problem, one keeps the injection between issues and tickets straight.)
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21:24 masak I'm almost fine with keeping the old ticket... but if so, I would like it to be renamed to describing the new issue rather than the old one.
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21:24 cosimo sorear: thanks
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21:31 masak mst :) http://twitter.com/shadowc​at_mst/status/26779271666
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21:32 sorear for the self-appointed Head Jerk of Perl, mst is remarkably enlightened
21:32 masak that's his secret weapon.
21:34 slavik mst?
21:34 sorear Matt S. Trout
21:34 masak slavik: Matt S. Trout
21:34 sjohnson mst
21:34 slavik is he important?
21:34 sjohnson guys nickname
21:34 sorear very
21:34 sjohnson pretty popular in the perl community
21:34 slavik I see
21:35 sjohnson he hangs out on #perl
21:35 masak slavik: his node has a high degree in the Graph of Perl.
21:35 slavik gotcha
21:35 slavik higher than TimToady?
21:35 sjohnson no
21:35 slavik so we're safe
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21:36 sorear in the Graph of Perl5, mst's degree may now have a higher degree
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21:37 masak slavik: mst wants to start the tradition of "State of the Velociraptor", which would in some sense make him belong to the same category as TimToady. (but still not as degree-ful, I guess.)
21:37 masak I think he is a good front figure of Perl 5.
21:38 masak even his Perl 6 criticism is more on the teasing side than on the poisonous side.
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21:38 sorear mst understands that he doesn't need to fear Perl 6
21:38 slavik Perl6 > Perl5
21:39 masak sorear: that's not 100% correct.
21:39 masak sorear: I've had it from mst that "if Perl 6 rattles its swords too much, I will not hesitate to play ugly". (quote might not be exact)
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21:40 sorear masak: by "rattles his swords" do you mean "we start acting like deranged idiots"?
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21:41 masak sorear: were you part of the p5/p6 discussion this time last year?
21:41 sorear If I was I was on the P5 side.
21:42 sorear I didn't start taking P6 seriously until ~March
21:42 masak it ended with mst and me publishing one blog post each, suggesting a way to view/understand the desires/fears of the other (sub-)community.
21:43 masak but it *started* from the realization that the two communities were -- unwittingly and avoidably -- getting on each other's nerves.
21:44 masak mst deserves the credit for initiating the 'peace talks'.
21:45 masak the two posts: http://strangelyconsistent.org/b​log/how-perl-6-could-kill-us-all and http://www.shadowcat.co.uk/bl​og/matt-s-trout/f_ck-perl-6/
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21:49 masak moritz_: [backlog] a MOP board game. interesting.
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21:50 masak I also believe that creating an isomorphism is necessary.
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21:50 masak "objects" and "classes" are already in the human subconscious, thanks to guys like Plato and Socrates.
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21:51 masak hm, those concepts are probably older than that, actually. "biological" intuition seems quite built-in to the human brain.
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21:54 masak PerlJam: [backlog] the nice thing with competing games over cooperating games is that the former have a tension having to do with some kind of zero-sum-ness. with cooperating games, you don't have to second-guess opponents as much, and they tend not to get as deep. :/
22:00 rgrau_``` is now known as rgrau_
22:00 colomon masak: I'm wondering what kind of game Lacuna Expanse will turn out to be.
22:00 masak oh! just remembered. 'finite games' tend to be competitive, and 'infinite games' cooperative.
22:01 masak there's a book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik​i/Finite_and_Infinite_Games
22:01 colomon (I'm immensely fond of Shadows Over Camelot, which is a mostly cooperative game.  (And very finite, unless there's a non-obvious meaning to the term "finite games".))
22:02 masak right. it's mostly a trend.
22:04 colomon It seems like Lacuna Expanse will allow us to trade and work with each other... or blow each other to smithereens.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out once a few more people have spaceships.
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22:06 colomon If the empire stats in the game are not lying to me, no one in the game has any weapons at the moment.
22:06 sorear is this like a Perl6 MMO?
22:06 cosimo w
22:07 masak sorear: it's written (partly) in Perl 5.
22:07 colomon sorear: Lacuna Expanse is a perl 5 MMO
22:08 Tene masak: you could use some trailing whitespace or a footer on strangelyconsistent.  Every time I get to the end of a post, it takes me a bit to recognize that it's the end, instead of the page not loading all the way or something.
22:09 masak Tene: thanks for the feedback. I'll add some trailing whitespace right away. in the long run, I plan to have a footer of some kind.
22:09 masak I just don't want to add in complexity before I know what to use it for :)
22:10 Tene Well, a footer could be as simple as a <hr/>
22:10 Tene Just something to indicate the end of the document
22:11 masak I'm not too fond of <hr/>s
22:11 Tene Sure.
22:11 Tene comet/snowman?
22:11 Tene ;)
22:11 Tene I used to hang out with the lacuna expanse guy on IRC.  I think I'm still in a channel with him.
22:11 Tene Yeah, #utah
22:12 masak Tene: added some whitespace. better now?
22:12 Tene Yeah, that's better.
22:12 Tene Thanks.
22:12 masak \o/
22:12 masak I like it better too.
22:13 * masak explicitly encourages others to suggest visual improvements to his blog
22:14 Tene definitely needs more comet/snowman
22:14 masak :)
22:14 masak maybe up in the header?
22:14 flussence I kinda like the lack of layout, it's less distracting from the words
22:14 masak flussence: I plan not to move away too far from the lack of layout.
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22:24 masak ooh happy happy happy! my presentation software now exists. and more than 24h left to work on content!
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22:59 dalek niecza/master: 56ae7e1 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
22:59 dalek niecza/master: add delegate/class benchmark to perf/
22:59 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/5​6ae7e1b700b21ec384ed986f15fb68fe0c88c6c
22:59 dalek niecza/master: e82259c | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
22:59 dalek niecza/master: Implement parsing/BEGIN for simple roles
22:59 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/e​82259c2aacaf4dc52b56693002a01b2ef5529c6
23:01 masak I love how hacking on something pays off in terms of nice graphics. my new presentation technique is called "infinite canvas", and is something of which I've been dreaming for quite a while.
23:02 Tene masak: I'm curious.  Tell me more?
23:02 masak Tene: ok, so we have SVG, right?
23:03 Tene Right.
23:03 masak SVG allows us to put things on a 2D plane, and then show these things as a presentation.
23:03 Tene Right.
23:03 masak the basic idea is to put the whole presentation in the same plane. all of the slides.
23:03 masak everything else flows from that.
23:03 Tene Hmm.
23:04 masak proximal ideas thus become close to each other in the plane.
23:04 masak zooming in and zooming out takes on a very concrete role.
23:05 masak I currently have the viewports of each slide being given as rectangles in a separate layer in the SVG. this seems to work well.
23:05 masak if I want, I can annotate these rectangles with transition effect instructions.
23:06 Tene Huh.
23:07 masak everything gets rendered as PDFs in the end, but the transition effects get pretty close to feeling like the presentation is animated.
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23:07 Tene I'm curious to see what you produce with this.
23:08 masak I'll publish it on Sunday. including the source code.
23:08 masak (Perl 5, due to superior XML tooling. zefram++)
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23:11 dukeleto masak: that sounds really awesome, can't wait to check it out. I hate how most presentation software imposes linear thought
23:16 masak I'm fairly anti-bullet-point. I already find that this method makes me focus on form and visual presentation more than on text. and I can do the whole presentation from within Inkscape.
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23:52 dalek niecza/master: 5bbfa53 | sorear++ | / (5 files):
23:52 dalek niecza/master: Avoid retaining frames for rules and tokens
23:52 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/5​bbfa53e63dc655890bf4dcf6eb0483f9757dfac
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