Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-10-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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04:24 sorear good * #perl6
04:27 diakopter good
04:28 plobsing Could not find sub &good
04:29 sorear diakopter: another part of why I want to hack apart STD.pm6 is that it doesn't have a fully reusable frontend
04:30 sorear STD.pm6 is a static checker, not a parser; it's possible to lift parses out of it, but you're still paying for the cost (and occasional false positive errors) of the static checker part
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05:32 sorear std: class q { }; say(q)
05:32 p6eval std 237d266: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Use of a closing delimiter for an opener is reserved at /tmp/izQhovQXzl line 1:␤------> [32mclass q { }; say(q[33m⏏[31m)[0m␤    expecting any of:␤        argument list␤    prefix or term␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 115m␤»
05:33 sorear std: class q { }; say( q )
05:33 p6eval std 237d266: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Use of a closing delimiter for an opener is reserved at /tmp/E9dsxlBMmt line 1:␤------> [32mclass q { }; say( q [33m⏏[31m)[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 115m␤»
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06:03 * sorear finds a memory leak in STD.pmc
06:05 sorear oh, misread
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06:25 * sorear grumbles at EXPR using a *lot* of internal CursorBase calls
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06:55 TiMBuS so my perl5 irc bot has gone up from about 130mb ram usage, to ~430mb.
06:56 TiMBuS perl6*
06:56 TiMBuS had parrot changed its gc
06:57 moritz_ yes
06:57 phenny moritz_: 11 Oct 20:55Z <PhatEddy> tell moritz_ his missing rakudo_test_run.tar.gz file could be caused by not having TAP::Harness::Archive installed.  Without the module installed the tests are still run but you get the LTA error message.
06:58 moritz_ phenny: tell PhatEddy thanks, I had reinstalled my operating system, so that TAP::Harness::Archive was missing indeed. Will try again now. Thanks for the hint!
06:58 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when PhatEddy is around.
07:02 TiMBuS moritz_, oh i see then, that explains it
07:02 TiMBuS in that case, how is the new gc overall? does it still segfault like the old one?
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07:02 azawawi hi
07:02 azawawi moritz_: ping :)
07:02 moritz_ azawawi: pong
07:03 azawawi moritz_: i noticed while reading backlogs what you said about ~azawawi... will fix it soon :)
07:03 moritz_ azawawi: it was about the syntax hilighted test snippets in the specs
07:03 moritz_ azawawi: they seemed to be unmaintained, so I removed the links
07:04 azawawi moritz_: they depended on svn and now they need to work with git...
07:04 moritz_ I also replaced the inline test snippets to links to the github repo - makes searching in the HTML much faster
07:05 moritz_ azawawi: exactly what I meant with "unmaintained"
07:05 azawawi moritz_: yup i know :)
07:05 * azawawi fixing... :)
07:06 moritz_ azawawi: feel free to add links back in, but please make them ordinary links, not inline
07:07 moritz_ azawawi: (you have again commit access to the "mu" repo, which used to be the pugs repo)
07:07 moritz_ afk
07:07 azawawi moritz_: thx
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07:19 sorear azawawi needs to drop by for more than 10 minutes at a time
07:19 sorear I find it *quite* annoying
07:19 sorear std: rx:moo { }
07:20 p6eval std 237d266: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized adverb :moo(1) at /tmp/ARkHYCRYUV line 1:␤------> [32mrx[33m⏏[31m:moo { }[0m␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/ARkHYCRYUV line 1:␤------> [32mrx:moo { [33m⏏[31m}[0m␤    expecting quantifier␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 115m␤»
07:20 sorear std: token:moo { }
07:20 p6eval std 237d266: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Undeclared routine:␤    'token:moo' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 115m␤»
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07:26 azawawi sorear: sorry :)
07:27 azawawi sorear: but im using a browser for IRC...
07:27 sorear Oh, you're one of those people who can hear when not present.
07:27 sorear Anyway.  Is S:H:P6 broken again yet?
07:29 azawawi sorear: didnt try it recently
07:29 azawawi sorear: will check
07:32 azawawi sorear: it installs correctly
07:33 azawawi sorear: I backlog a lot :)
07:34 moritz_ sorear: I just /ignore joins and leaves. Works out quite well
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07:42 moritz_ is there a #cpan6sketch today?
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08:29 sorear I have gone over STD.pm6 and identified 63 items where Niecza is not currently up to the task
08:29 dalek niecza/master: 8f7545b | sorear++ | / (6 files):
08:29 dalek niecza/master: Start review/port of STD.pm6
08:29 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/8​f7545bf6abfbf683204859b7a183d81eec7ef1f
08:29 dalek niecza/master: 56625fd | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
08:29 dalek niecza/master: Finish first scan
08:29 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/5​6625fd9ce6d604c1152f55ae299773c6c18265d
08:29 sorear (and fixed or commented out a few places where STD gratuituosly used advanced features like sprintf)
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09:11 moritz_ sorear: are the # end role  comments significant?
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09:41 masak oh hai
09:42 moritz_ oh hai masak
09:42 moritz_ are you back in .se?
09:43 masak aye.
09:43 masak just woke up from a good night's sleep.
09:43 * moritz_ envies masak for long/late sleeping
09:44 masak if it's any consolation, I would have liked to sleep a bit shorter :)
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09:44 moritz_ that said, the last 4 night have been quite peacefully, compared to those of the previous weeks
09:44 moritz_ :-)
09:46 masak relative measurement is relative :P
09:46 moritz_ indeed :-)
09:46 moritz_ but since humans are mostly relative, that's OK
09:47 masak oh, very OK.
09:48 * moritz_ just read an announcement for a workshop: Small Talk in English: Do´s and Dont´s
09:48 moritz_ one Don't: using wrong apostrophe in workshop titles :-)
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09:50 PhatEddy moritz_: spectest_smolder runs t/harness with --archive option.  Would be easy to warn if harness sees --archive option but no TAP Archive module.  Interested in patch?
09:50 phenny PhatEddy: 06:58Z <moritz_> tell PhatEddy thanks, I had reinstalled my operating system, so that TAP::Harness::Archive was missing indeed. Will try again now. Thanks for the hint!
09:50 moritz_ PhatEddy: yes; with s/warn/die/
09:51 moritz_ warnings are too easy to overlook
09:51 moritz_ and there's really no point in running _smolder if the submission won't work
09:52 PhatEddy ok - will try in next day or two ...
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09:53 moritz_ btw if you have a patch that affects multiple files, it's easier for the reviewer if you submit it as a single patch
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10:08 masak unless it's actually several unrelated changed.
10:08 masak s/changed/changes/
10:10 moritz_ then it belongs in separate tickets.
10:10 moritz_ (or commits, in the case of pull requests)
10:10 masak *nod*
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10:35 moritz_ rakudo: say ' - - '.trim.perl
10:36 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«"- -"␤»
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10:51 jnthn o/
10:54 jnthn masak: Glad you made it back safely too :-)
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11:34 masak jnthn: I had a pleasant day in Utrecht yesterday. it also has canals (grachten).
11:35 jnthn masak: nice :-)
11:37 colomon back home we had canal (singular).  I canoed and cross-country skied on it when I was younger.
11:38 masak skiing, not skating?
11:38 colomon more skiing than skating.  I had a bad tendency to outgrow my skates very quickly.
11:39 colomon (which maybe means the skiing was a bit later, because I don't remember outgrowing them so much.  phases.)
11:39 jnthn masak: I had currywurst in Hamburg while changing train. :-)
11:40 jnthn 'twas nommy.
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11:41 masak sounds nice. :) I tried some of the local fries-with-mayonnaise in Utrecht. odd but nice.
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11:43 jnthn Fries + mayo is a nice combination :-)
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12:05 takadonet morning all
12:07 masak takadonet: \o
12:07 nymacro lo
12:09 takadonet masak: little surprised that you have not commented on : http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comm​ents/dpqh7/longest_palindrome_by_regex/
12:09 masak takadonet: been traveling yesterday. :)
12:11 moritz_ takadonet++ # sending me ~6k visitors from reddit
12:11 takadonet masak: ic
12:11 takadonet moritz_: np anytime
12:12 takadonet was nice to see people discussion the issue rather then ' Perl 6 sucks!'
12:12 masak indeed.
12:12 masak let's have more of that.
12:26 masak rakudo: sub j { :2($^n.fmt("%b").comb.rotate.join) }; say j($_) for 1 .. 20 # Josephus function; see https://secure.wikimedia.org/wik​ipedia/en/wiki/Josephus_problem
12:26 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«1␤1␤3␤1␤3␤5␤7␤1␤3␤5​␤7␤9␤11␤13␤15␤1␤3␤5␤7␤9␤»
12:26 masak \o/
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12:28 moritz_ \o/
12:36 daxim masak, do the ⌹dyalog creature⌹ next
12:37 masak good idea.
12:38 dalek specs: 00572dd | masak++ | S06-routines.pod:
12:38 dalek specs: [S06] s/tail-recursion/recursion/
12:38 dalek specs:
12:38 dalek specs: Because you can use &?BLOCK calls in a non-tail position (and execution
12:38 dalek specs: still carries on afterwards), it's really just normal recursion.
12:38 dalek specs:
12:38 dalek specs: Omission found by (Ben Goldberg)++.
12:38 dalek specs: review: http://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/00​572dd42250299c2d35d1735691cf5f2601c666
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12:38 daxim but as a port from the apl, else it doesn't count
12:39 masak here's the original apl, for someone who wants to tackle it: http://www.dyalog.com/dfnsdws/n_life.htm
12:40 masak I really like the division into the spaces <plane cylinder torus möbius klein>.
12:40 masak never thought about it that way before.
12:41 masak I have not yet convinced myself that that's an excaustive list of such spaces, though.
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12:44 * moritz_ waits for a topologic, exact definition of "those spaces" :-)
12:45 krunen ~.
12:46 krunen argh. sorry, frozen ssh :(
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12:46 * moritz_ hands krunen a hair drier to thaw his ssh session :-)
12:47 jnthn Winter is coming... ;-)
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12:50 masak (Stark family motto.)
12:51 masak moritz_: things that can be described by that square thing they have, putting optional arrows in some direction on each of the sides.
12:52 masak moritz_: seems to me they don't include the one where the arrows all point clockwise, for example.
12:54 moritz_ old (2003), but still interesting: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=261631
12:55 moritz_ "I am scared that someone will write a Python parser as a perl 6 regex."
12:56 masak aren't we all? :P
12:56 moritz_ if you s/regex/grammar/, it's not scary to me at all
12:57 masak Perl 6 has been "not yet released" since at least 2003.
12:58 masak I wonder if it'd have been possible to counteract that meme early, or if no matter which path one chose, Perl 6 would get the "vapor" label...
12:59 moritz_ we could start another next-version-of-a-popular-language and try to find out :-)
12:59 moritz_ ... but only when Perl 6 is "done" :-))
12:59 masak oh yeah. only then.
13:00 masak wouldn't want to "detract from" Perl 6. :P
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13:58 shortcircuit A P6 example got tagged incorrect, if someone wants to fix it: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Sort_stability#Perl_6
13:58 shortcircuit It looks like the issue is that the example data set isn't meant to be taken as a list of strings, but as a list of records, and the sort is supposed to be applied to the second column.
13:59 moritz_ the issue is just .[0] vs .[1]
14:00 moritz_ easy fix
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15:18 moritz_ std: [1, 2]«-»[3, 4]
15:18 p6eval std 263c207: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 117m␤»
15:18 moritz_ shouldn't that barf because « starts a postcircumfix?
15:21 masak noö why_
15:21 masak no; why?
15:22 masak array indexing of hash indexing of array.
15:22 moritz_ rakudo: say [1, 2]«-»[0, 1].perl
15:22 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«12␤»
15:23 moritz_ wrong?
15:23 masak IMO yes.
15:23 colomon maybe I'm being dense, but how could it possibly be right?
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15:24 masak right. it looks like one of those "even if it were right, it'd be wrong" things.
15:24 moritz_ rakudo: print ([1..3]«-»[1..3]).perl
15:24 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«[0, 0, 0]»
15:24 colomon rakudo: say [1, 2] «-» [0, 1].per
15:24 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«Method 'per' not found for invocant of class 'Array'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/FZgLeatNgw␤»
15:24 colomon rakudo: say [1, 2] «-» [0, 1].perl
15:24 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«12␤»
15:25 colomon rakudo: say [1, 2] «-» [0, 1]
15:25 moritz_ rakudo: say ([1, 2]<<->>[0,1]).perl
15:26 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«11␤»
15:26 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«(Any, Any)␤»
15:26 moritz_ that looks better
15:26 flussence perl6: our multi sub postcircumfix:<« »>(Array $a) { ... }; say ([1,2]«*»[2,5]).perl;
15:26 moritz_ maybe « » is just NYI?
15:26 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Cannot cast into Hash: VRef <Array:0x2acb6f227d91>␤    at /tmp/U4BOAX1EB1 line 1, column 59-72␤»
15:26 p6eval ..rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Null PMC access in get_string()␤»
15:26 colomon rakudo: say ([1, 2] «-» [0, 1])
15:26 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«11␤»
15:26 flussence std: our multi sub postcircumfix:<« »>(Array $a) { ... }; say ([1,2]«*»[2,5]).perl;
15:26 p6eval std 263c207: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to parse postcircumfix expression at /tmp/GfO3dtDnjL line 1:␤------> [32mfix:<« »>(Array $a) { ... }; say ([1,2]«[33m⏏[31m*»[2,5]).perl;[0m␤Couldn't find final '»'; gave up at /tmp/GfO3dtDnjL line 1:␤------> [32m»>(Array $a) { ... };
15:26 p6eval ..say (…
15:27 moritz_ rakudo: say « 1 2 3 »
15:27 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«123␤»
15:27 flussence rakudo doesn't like that sub declaration for some reason...
15:28 moritz_ right, «» as postcircumfix is simply NYI
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15:31 flussence std: say ([1,2]«*»[2,5]).perl;
15:32 p6eval std 263c207: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
15:33 flussence huh, I never realised std allowed custom operators
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15:43 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:43 takadonet pmichaud: morning
15:44 moritz_ \o
15:46 masak pmichaud: morning!
15:46 pmichaud how was paris?
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15:54 moritz_ github has a scary bug
15:54 moritz_ I go to one of my repos
15:54 moritz_ delete it
15:54 moritz_ successfully
15:54 colomon pmichaud: o/
15:55 colomon moritz_: oh noez
15:55 moritz_ and then it redirects me to the perl 6 organization account
15:55 masak o.O
15:55 moritz_ and says "your repo $Blah has been deleted successfully"
15:55 moritz_ so I think I removed perl6/$Blah, even though I just deleted moritz/$Blah
15:55 masak please submit githubbug.
15:57 moritz_ (which gave me quite a heart attack when I thought I had deleted perl6/modules.perl6.org, not moritz/modules.perl6.org)
16:01 masak :)
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16:05 moritz_ uhm, no feedback if that message to the github team has been sent successfully :(
16:06 moritz_ it just shows me the blank form again
16:06 pmichaud another githubbug?  ;-)
16:07 moritz_ it's also unclear from their UI if I should use 'contact' or 'support'
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16:09 masak mberends! \o/
16:09 mberends yo!
16:09 slavik will there be any sort of spec for what modules constitute "standard" distribution?
16:11 pmichaud there is no "standard distribution".
16:11 pmichaud (so no, there's no such spec)
16:12 pmichaud mberends: o/
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16:14 mberends oh hai pmichaud!
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16:16 pmichaud omg I posted a response to p6l
16:17 moritz_ OH NOEZ!
16:17 masak that reminds me...
16:18 * masak starts writing a summary in the attr introspection thread
16:18 masak pmichaud: *gasp* -- you used "real-world use cases" on p6l!
16:19 masak (sorry for jokingly linguifying an important issue) :)
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16:19 masak pmichaud++ # nice reply
16:20 pmichaud I recognize that talking about real implementation details is against p6l standards.... but sometimes a few mugs need to be broken
16:20 masak can't make a language without breaking a few mugs...
16:20 pmichaud well, you *can*.... but you might not like the language you end up with :)
16:21 masak I'd rather use Perl 6 than Consensus 6, yes.
16:21 moritz_ :-)
16:21 pmichaud did we agree on "Consensus 6" as a name?  I thought we had decided on "Group Think 6".
16:21 * moritz_ wants Plan 6
16:21 pmichaud or even "Bikeshed 110"
16:21 masak no, I distinctly remember it as "Committee 6".
16:22 [particle] isn't C for Cabal?
16:22 masak ok, so we've all agreed about the need to agree. now we just need to agree what to agree on.
16:22 pmichaud [particle]: o/
16:23 [particle] howdy, pmichaud!
16:23 * [particle] has been buried under a $work-shaped rock
16:23 [particle] i finally freed one hand to type
16:24 pmichaud I've been buried under a <cold work family> shaped rock
16:24 [particle] i just don't understand how perl 6 will torture the implementors properly if they're the ones defining the spec
16:24 [particle] (re: threads)
16:25 pmichaud [particle]: counter-example:  lists
16:25 [particle] :)
16:27 moritz_ now here is pmichaud again, arguing with real-world examples
16:27 moritz_ how can we successfully build a vapor language if we start to look at the real world?
16:30 pmichaud the real world gives us lots of vapor to work with :)
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16:52 masak p6l email sent.
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16:56 colomon masak: believe you got former and latter backwards in the .perl section
16:57 masak colomon: indeed -- correcting.
16:57 masak colomon++
16:57 colomon masak++ # for being brave enough to post to p6l
16:59 pmichaud I like the analogy very much.  My comment would be that unlike MONKEY_TYPING and .HOW,  ".get_value"  doesn't visually appear as though "you're working outside the rules."
16:59 pmichaud s/outside/above/
16:59 masak indeed.
16:59 masak and that was TheDamian's point too, IIRC.
17:00 masak you can pick up an Attribute meta-object and run with it to the other end of your program.
17:00 masak I must confess I'm not too worried about that, though.
17:00 masak because *some* part of your program is in the tower, above the rules.
17:01 pmichaud well, you don't necessarily know that.  It could be a module.
17:01 masak and if that part decides to let Attribute objects out of the tower, then you do indeed have two problems. :P
17:01 moritz_ masak++ # good summary
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17:01 masak thought you'd like it. :)
17:01 masak nom &
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17:01 pmichaud lunch here, also.
17:02 moritz_ Damian mentioned he disliked .get_value, because the call that involved the meta class could be in a different scope
17:02 moritz_ and an Attribute is just being passed around
17:02 moritz_ I don't buy that argument
17:03 moritz_ because if you use get_value, your code explicitly works with an Attribute, so it knows about this breaking-of-the-rules
17:03 pmichaud I'm also not too keen on "get_"  and "set_".... in general that's not very perlish.  (Perhaps the meta-ness of attributes requires breaking that pattern, though)
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17:03 moritz_ (he is right in that it's not visually obvious though)
17:03 colomon should they be upper case?
17:03 moritz_ pmichaud: it should probably be bind_ instead of set_, right
17:03 colomon I mean, it would look obnoxious, but that might be the point....
17:03 pmichaud fwiw, we already have things like FETCH and STORE.... any reason not to use those?
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17:04 moritz_ pmichaud: they act on containers
17:04 pmichaud attributes aren't containers?
17:04 pmichaud oh, nm
17:04 moritz_ if you have an Attribute object, it's not a container.
17:04 pmichaud right
17:05 pmichaud it's a way of getting at a container...
17:05 moritz_ FETCH and STORE would work for me too, even if I'm not entirely convinced
17:06 pmichaud it might be interesting if Attribute were actually some sort of method (more)
17:06 pmichaud then one could do something like   $obj.$attr = ...
17:06 moritz_ interesting approach
17:06 pmichaud instead of doing   $attr.set_value($obj, $value)
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17:08 pmichaud that feels a lot more perlish to me, somehow.
17:09 pmichaud especially since   "has $.abc"   tends to create a "method abc"  that is used to access the $!abc container.
17:09 pmichaud so perhaps an Attribute can really act like one of those autogenerated methods
17:09 pmichaud or the autogenerated methods are really just instances of Attribute
17:10 pmichaud lunch here
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18:39 sorear moritz_: # end role and company are to help out the "parser" in gimme5.  They're no longer relevant in the viv era.
18:44 Util How can I return 2 distinct arrays from a sub?
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18:44 moritz_ return [1, 2], [3, 4]
18:46 Util And if they are already in arrays, is this the best syntax? return [@q], [@r];
18:46 risou left #perl6
18:48 moritz_ if you want avoid an extra copy, return @q.item, @r.item
18:48 moritz_ or $(...) isntead of  .item
18:51 Util moritz_: thanks
18:56 dalek niecza/master: a6766cd | sorear++ | / (5 files):
18:56 dalek niecza/master: Starts on the TODO...
18:56 dalek niecza/master:
18:56 dalek niecza/master: Add &chars, &substr, &join, &item, &not, &defined, &reverse, &note,
18:56 dalek niecza/master: &push, &pop, &shift, &unshift, Mu.item, Bool.Numeric; work around
18:56 dalek niecza/master: absense of //=, ||=, named arguments to Mu.new.
18:56 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/a​6766cd4fd1222f816e21b175c577e213d4cb91d
18:57 masak joined #perl6
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18:57 masak ahoj!
19:02 masak #phasers in -2?
19:04 masak moritz_, jnthn, pmichaud?
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19:05 pmichaud present
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19:13 * moritz_ raises hand
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19:23 dalek niecza/master: 4cf4ea5 | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
19:23 dalek niecza/master: Work around $_ scoping bugs
19:23 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/4​cf4ea5175ddf499842067f51cd3b80a90792357
19:23 dalek niecza/master: dab9893 | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
19:23 dalek niecza/master: Work around lack of given/when
19:23 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/d​ab9893beef560fe27b123e4abc1c6be8178d2ae
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19:46 sorear seen tylercurtis
19:46 aloha tylercurtis was last seen in #perl6 4 days 6 hours ago joining the channel.
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20:10 andrei_alexandre hello everyone
20:10 andrei_alexandre I have a question about Perl6's handling of static type annotations.
20:10 andrei_alexandre I've used google for a while, no avail
20:11 andrei_alexandre Question is, how does Perl handle pass by reference for values that are statically anotated with e.g. int?
20:11 masak andrei_alexandre: hi!
20:11 PerlJam andrei_alexandre: #perl6 >> google for Perl 6 questions :)
20:12 masak andrei_alexandre: hm. good question.
20:12 andrei_alexandre I am googling but human touch is always best :D
20:12 masak something like this? my int $a = 42; foo($a); sub foo(int $a is rw) { ... }
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20:13 andrei_alexandre no, foo() would be old-style, i.e. it won't specify int on its parameter
20:13 andrei_alexandre it would take a reference nonetheless
20:14 masak like this? my int $a = 42; foo($a); sub foo($a is rw) { ... }
20:15 andrei_alexandre in brief what I'm asking is whether "my int $a;" can actually use a plain 64-bit value for $a instead of a variant
20:15 andrei_alexandre yah
20:15 andrei_alexandre @masak: yah
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20:15 sorear andrei_alexandre: I don't think it's legal to call foo($a) like that
20:16 PerlJam sorear: why not?
20:16 andrei_alexandre sorear: so that would be a compile-time error I reckon
20:16 PerlJam int isn't in Any's tree?
20:16 sorear int isn't a type
20:16 masak what is it?
20:16 PerlJam Hmm.
20:16 sorear it's ... something weird
20:16 andrei_alexandre PerlJam: if it is then the representation of $a would still be a Variant with the associated overhead
20:17 sorear my int $x;  # $x is of type int, but it also has a representation trait applied
20:17 andrei_alexandre sorear: what's a representation trait?
20:17 sorear andrei_alexandre: a trait that controls data representation
20:17 sorear I'm making this up as I go along, if you can't tell.
20:17 PerlJam andrei_alexandre: an "implementation detail" of the storage for the var.  :)
20:18 PerlJam sorear: #perl6 is where dreams are made real anyway.
20:18 sorear No definite answers have been reached on my int $foo
20:18 sorear I have my thoughts on how it has to work
20:18 andrei_alexandre is there an article somewhere discussing the design in good detail?
20:18 andrei_alexandre problem is I have even trouble finding keywords to search for
20:18 sorear There isn't a design at all
20:18 andrei_alexandre I tried "perl6" "static typing"
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20:19 sorear let alone a document describing it
20:19 andrei_alexandre "perl6" "explicit typing"
20:19 andrei_alexandre etc.
20:19 andrei_alexandre no avail
20:19 sorear see above
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20:20 andrei_alexandre "perl6" "representation traits" ain't a winner either :D
20:21 sorear Right, I just made up the term
20:21 sorear Google is frighteningly fast; I googled a term once and got the irclog as the first hit, less than an hour after the term was used
20:21 PerlJam sorear: you should write an article about your made-up terms :)
20:22 PerlJam S02:568 makes me think that sub foo ($a is rw) { ... }  my int $x = 7;  foo($x);  # is perfectly valid.
20:23 andrei_alexandre PerlJam: you mean this? http://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/ma​ster/S02-literals/quoting.t#L543-L568
20:24 sorear I'm an implementor.  I reserve the right to declare parts of the synopses "completely insane" and refuse to implement them.
20:24 andrei_alexandre I found http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html, what's 568 referring to?
20:24 sorear :)
20:24 PerlJam andrei_alexandre: line number.
20:24 PerlJam andrei_alexandre: have a look at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today
20:25 PerlJam andrei_alexandre: my text will be a link to the appropriate section
20:25 andrei_alexandre thanks!
20:26 sorear PerlJam: how I think this will work is that autoboxes are read-only
20:26 andrei_alexandre so thats' http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#line_568
20:26 PerlJam andrei_alexandre: read the third sentence of that paragraph.
20:26 PerlJam sorear: why read only?
20:26 sorear my int $foo might be stored in a register window or dedicated stack memory; it doesn't make any sense to allow read-write pointers to it
20:28 PerlJam Hmm
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20:29 PerlJam I was kind of thinking that $a would be an Any that knows how to translate reads/writes into a form that's useful for the int $x  (or carp if that can't be done)
20:30 PerlJam so ... sub foo ($a is rw) { $a = "hi" };  my int $x = 7;  foo($x);  # dies horribly
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20:30 andrei_alexandre so let's seee
20:30 PerlJam but ... sub foo ($a is rw) { $a = 32 };  my int $x = 7;  foo($x);  # works fine
20:30 andrei_alexandre third sentence of paragraph (and the following paren: "However, Perl will try to make those look like their corresponding uppercase types if you treat them that way. (In other words, it does autoboxing. Note, however, that sometimes repeated autoboxing can slow your program more than the native type can speed it up.)"
20:30 sorear Constructing those objects is going to get very expensive very quickly.  I'd rather not bother.
20:30 andrei_alexandre So it does autoboxing
20:31 andrei_alexandre but autoboxing doesn't quite work for pass by reference
20:31 andrei_alexandre hence my question
20:31 sorear andrei_alexandre: autoboxing doesn't quite work for pass by reference.
20:31 andrei_alexandre that's what I think
20:31 andrei_alexandre boxing an int works, you box it and you pass it around
20:32 sorear andrei_alexandre: when you say "my int $foo", you're leaving the land of ponies and butterflies and entering the world of native types, which is a much less pleasant place
20:32 andrei_alexandre boxing a reference to int... is only possible if there's a "reference to int" type around
20:32 sorear if you don't want to deal with the ramifications of native types, don't use them
20:32 andrei_alexandre I don't want to use/avoid explicit types
20:32 andrei_alexandre just to figure the design decision
20:33 molaf left #perl6
20:33 PerlJam maybe TimToady will read this and decide what's Right and True and patch the spec for us   ;)
20:34 sorear I've asked TimToady about this more than once.
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21:34 masak 'night, #perl6
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22:11 alester I'm working w/Damian on getting input from folks about threads in Perl 6
22:11 alester Gonna run a blurb on Perlbuzz asking people for input about what works and doesn't work with concurrent processes.
22:11 alester per his mail from a little while ago
22:12 alester Anyone willing to be a point of contact for collecting those?  I'm guessing that people won't want to sign up for perl6-whatever if they don't have to, and the lower the barrier to entry, the better.
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