Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-10-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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06:09 sorear I think this is the first time I've been out all day and nobody's said anything interesting
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06:16 moritz_ good morning
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09:08 * masak liked chromatic's http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2010/10/certification-or-delivery.html
09:10 moritz_ next week's rakudo release coincides with my wife's birthday
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09:12 frettled masak: ooh, thanks for the link.  chromatic++
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09:44 masak "Netcraft confirms: #perl6 is dying"? it's eerily quiet around here. am I on the wrong side of a netsplit?
09:44 toebu grin
09:47 moritz_ we just need more masaks in here :-)
09:47 frettled masak: perhaps we remain stunned by the language barrier evidenced the other day!
09:52 masak frettled: it goes further back than that...
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09:56 * muixirt is looking at http://mfollett.com/finalized-perl-6-talk-slides
09:56 moritz_ somehow those slides don't work for me
09:57 moritz_ is there somewhere a simple .pdf version, or a plain mpeg video or so?
09:57 frettled masak: oh.  I've been too busy to notice.  :(
09:57 daxim works for me
09:57 daxim it's just slideshare/embedded
09:58 moritz_ slideshare usually also doesn't work for me
09:58 moritz_ javascript from a dozen different domains
09:59 masak frettled: there's almost been more action on p6l than on #perl6... and the conversation on p6l has been very non-bikesheddy. kind of a mirror universe.
09:59 moritz_ I guess that adblock plus or ghostery kills one of them, and the rest is not robust
09:59 muixirt rakudo: my $foo = 11; say ("\$foo is an " ~ $foo.WHAT)
09:59 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«$foo is an Int()␤»
09:59 frettled masak: Yes, I noticed that there has been a bit of a flurry regarding threads and such.  Even intelligent conversation.
10:00 muixirt slide 16 says it is Any
10:00 muixirt btw is that a new behavior of rakudo?
10:00 moritz_ no
10:01 masak frettled: nod. I regret that alester didn't manage to recruit anyone from this channel to be a contact person re threads, though.
10:01 moritz_ .WHAT always gives you the type of the object, not of the container
10:02 frettled masak: I was nearly tempted, but I don't think my current combination of work and personal life makes me a good coordinator.  :(
10:02 muixirt moritz_: and the object in this case is?
10:02 masak frettled: nodnod. everyone has to make such choices.
10:02 moritz_ muixirt: 11
10:03 masak but Perl 6 is taken forward by very busy people. it's those who know to prioritize, and get important things done :)
10:03 frettled masak: :)
10:03 frettled I hope that I get my messes cleared out within a few months, so that I can get going on things like this again!
10:04 * moritz_ thinks that other issues than threads are more pressing atm
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10:04 masak moritz_: please elaborate.
10:05 moritz_ masak: on the spec side: determining (in)finiteness of sequences/lists. IO.
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10:06 moritz_ on the implementation side: speed. Robustness.
10:06 masak I agree that all those are more *important*, indeed.
10:07 masak and that threads are correspondingly the Wrong things to focus on if they thereby detract from those areas.
10:07 masak but I'm not sure they are.
10:07 masak s/are/do/
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10:07 moritz_ masak: I'm not saying it's wrong to focus on threads; I'm just saying that for me other areas are more pressing, thus *I* will not focus on threads
10:07 daxim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_comprehension   perl6 example?
10:08 moritz_ additionally I don't have much experience with threads, so I'd not be of much use
10:09 masak same here.
10:09 masak I'd be happy to try them out once there's something there.
10:09 masak I have some experience in breaking things I don't understand :P
10:09 moritz_ :-)
10:10 masak by the way, could someone help me find out where to get information about the new NPW 2010? the one's to be held in November?
10:11 masak all I find is the old NPW 2010 page, and other information about the canceled meeting.
10:11 moritz_ is there no contact information on the old page?
10:12 masak not that I can see. http://npw2010.fsfi.is/
10:12 masak but I believe I might have their email address somewhere...
10:13 daxim Jonas Brømsø Nielsen <jonasbn ÄT gmail.com>
10:13 masak oh, indeed. he stepped up as organizer, no?
10:13 masak daxim++
10:14 * masak emails jonasbn
10:14 daxim right; this is from the act mauling list
10:16 moritz_ rakudo: say ([[1, 2], 3] >>*>> 0 >>+>> 42).perl
10:16 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«[[42, 42], 42]␤»
10:16 moritz_ \o/
10:16 moritz_ I've just used this pattern in Mathematica
10:17 moritz_ my goal was to replace the values of a nested data structure by the mean of these values, while preserving the structure
10:18 masak nice.
10:19 moritz_ (this is a crude way to simulate laser injection locking of grouped pulses; the mechansim is slow enough to average over fast pulse trains)
10:21 masak rakudo: say ([[1, 2], 3] <<+>> [4, [5, 6]]).perl
10:22 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«[[5, 6], [8, 9]]␤»
10:22 masak heh :)
10:22 moritz_ this is cool and a bit scary
10:22 masak rakudo: say ([[1, 2], 3] >>+<< [4, [5, 6]]).perl
10:22 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«Sorry, sides are of uneven length and not dwimmy.␤  in 'hyper' at line 184:CORE.setting␤  in <anon> at line 209:CORE.setting␤  in 'hyper' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
10:22 moritz_ rakudo: say ([[1, 2], 3] <<~>> [4, [5, 6]]).perl
10:22 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«[["14", "24"], ["35", "36"]]␤»
10:22 masak I'm thinking whether this error message is LTA.
10:22 masak the sides are in fact not of 'uneven length'.
10:23 masak (well, they are both of length 3, which is not an even number, but...) :)
10:24 moritz_ what could we say instead?
10:24 masak good question.
10:24 masak printing out the contents of the sub-arrays might be a Bad Idea for big arrays.
10:24 moritz_ "the structures on both sides of non-dwimmy hyperop are not congruent"
10:25 masak I like that better.
10:25 * masak submits rakudobug
10:25 masak moritz_++
10:25 moritz_ left: 1 element
10:25 moritz_ right: 2 elements
10:25 moritz_ at nesting level 2
10:25 masak excellent.
10:25 masak yes!
10:26 masak lunch &
10:27 * moritz_ has no idea how hard the nesting level will be to obtain
10:28 flussence wouldn't the code that prints the error know where it went wrong?
10:29 moritz_ rakudo: say ~((1, 2, 3, 4) <<+>> (1, *, 5, 6))
10:29 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«Can't take numeric value for object of type Whatever␤  in 'Any::Numeric' at line 1379:CORE.setting␤  in 'infix:<+>' at line 7257:CORE.setting␤  in <anon> at line 211:CORE.setting␤  in 'hyper' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
10:29 moritz_ rakudo: say ~((1, 2, 3, 4) >>~<< (1, *, 5, 6))
10:29 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«11 2Whatever()<0xfa8ae48> 35 46␤»
10:31 moritz_ flussence: the code for hyper is spread out over half a dozen multis, and there are three die()s in there concerning non-equal length
10:33 flussence oh, hm.
10:34 moritz_ but that would be nice project to work on
10:34 moritz_ maybe another challenge?
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10:37 moritz_ (one could even track the indexes that lead to the mismatch, and then say (left)[1]<foo>[3] has length 3, (right)[1]<foo>[3] has length 2)
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10:37 moritz_ but that's probably too slow, and too much effort
10:40 pythonian4000 moritz_, or anyone who knows: How would I obtain an accurate and up-to-date count of the number of users in a channel within Bot::BasicBot?
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11:23 masak moritz_: yes -- challenge. I think that's a really good idea.
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11:46 moritz_ pythonian4000: if there's no method for it, you might need to fall back to POE::Component::IRC::State
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11:48 tadzik oh hai
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11:49 masak hi tadzik!
11:49 tadzik how's it going in the internetz?
11:50 moritz_ tubey
11:50 masak we got some 1s stuck in a bend of one of the tubes earlier today.
11:51 moritz_ good thing we know about forward error correction
11:52 masak forward error correction isn't just a truck that you dump stuff on.
11:53 moritz_ right; it's more like a protective cladding for stuff that you dump on a truck
11:53 takadonet morning all
11:55 masak takadonet: \o
11:57 takadonet masak: how are u?
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12:00 masak takadonet: fine, thanks. a slight bit out of the Perl 6 world, but fighting to get back in the game.
12:01 masak takadonet: and u?
12:02 takadonet masak: Having trouble with some objects in Perl 6 but otherwise doing great
12:02 masak any way we can assist?
12:03 masak moritz_: if you want at some point, I'd like to discuss .new, .clone, and object invariants.
12:04 takadonet I know the answer.... just cannot remember how to do. Normally I avoid asking the same question in the channel
12:04 takadonet i have only about 15 mins then really work will begin
12:04 masak takadonet: if I followed such a rule (only asking once), you'd hear a lot less of me :P
12:04 takadonet s/really/real
12:04 takadonet hehe
12:04 takadonet ok.
12:05 takadonet Object has an attribute Str $.start_pos is rw;
12:06 takadonet I want to make my own accessor since I want to have a post and/or pre process to ensure that it meets a certain criteria
12:07 masak takadonet: making your own accessor that does pre/post-processing is (at the point Rakudo is today) incompatible with having the accessors act like they do per default. :/
12:07 moritz_ then you should declare it as private, not  public and rw
12:08 takadonet ahhh
12:08 masak you can, however, make a set_start_pos or whatever and make it work like you want.
12:08 takadonet see that is my workaround but I'm getting tired of having lots of workarounds
12:09 moritz_ then implement 'is rw' on methods
12:09 moritz_ and submit patch to rakudobug@perl.org
12:09 takadonet every few months I tried to do the 'right way'
12:09 moritz_ (or bribe another developer to do it for you :-)
12:10 masak takadonet: I feel with you.
12:10 masak takadonet: just remember that it's frustration like yours that brings the project forward. takadonet++
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12:10 masak (along with the obvious things, like the devs implementing stuff)
12:11 takadonet i know
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12:11 takadonet good thing is that I have a strong base that I'm copying
12:14 masak bioperl?
12:14 takadonet yes
12:14 masak \o/
12:15 takadonet a few weeks ago I got a Hmmer file parse grammar and parsing done in about 3 hours
12:15 takadonet well the header part anyway
12:15 masak cool!
12:17 takadonet I tried to parse the Pfam full database for a few key value pairs in each header.... well it did not get to far :(
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12:18 moritz_ needs more speed?
12:19 moritz_ or is memory consumption the problem?
12:19 masak takadonet: two years ago, you wouldn't have gotten off the ground. that's some measure of progress...
12:19 takadonet speed
12:20 takadonet masak: I know a year ago we did not even have line numbers for the stace trace!
12:20 * masak shudders
12:20 masak jnthn++
12:20 moritz_ speaking of which: one of my next projects is to classify error messages by missing information
12:20 moritz_ I noticed that some errors include line number, but not file name
12:20 moritz_ rakudo: my $x; my $x
12:21 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol $x at line 22, near ""␤»
12:21 moritz_ this one for example
12:21 flussence ouch, reminds me of trying to debug JS framework errors in IE6...
12:21 flussence "line 77"... WHICH line 77?!
12:23 flussence (nasty experience, still fresh in my memory...)
12:23 moritz_ this one is caused by PCT or NQP-RX or so
12:23 moritz_ so harder for me to tackle
12:24 moritz_ rakudo: my &foo; sub foo { };
12:24 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Can not re-declare sub &foo without declaring it multi at line 22, near ";"␤»
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12:42 masak rakudo: my &foo; multi foo { }
12:42 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Multiple declarations of lexical '&foo'␤␤»
12:42 masak but you said...? :/
12:42 moritz_ :-)
12:42 flussence "multi sub foo"?
12:42 masak flussence: same thing.
12:43 flussence oh.
12:43 * masak submits LTA rakudobug
12:43 frettled rakudo: sub foo { }; my &foo; multi foo { };
12:43 p6eval rakudo 5d23e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol &foo at line 22, near "; multi fo"␤»
12:43 frettled (muah)
12:43 dual left #perl6
12:43 * frettled is not surprised.
12:43 moritz_ std: sub foo { }; my &foo; multi foo { };
12:43 p6eval std 263c207: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Illegal redeclaration of routine 'foo' (see line 1) at /tmp/eYYEDdOiOv line 1:␤------> [32msub foo { }; my &foo[33m⏏[31m; multi foo { };[0m␤Illegal redeclaration of routine 'foo' (see line 1) at /tmp/eYYEDdOiOv line 1:␤------> [32msub foo { };
12:43 p6eval ..my…
12:44 masak std: my &foo; multi foo { }
12:44 p6eval std 263c207: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Illegal redeclaration of routine 'foo' (see line 1) at /tmp/Iat7pgWOxe line 1:␤------> [32mmy &foo; multi foo[33m⏏[31m { }[0m␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
12:44 masak std: my &foo; sub foo { }
12:44 p6eval std 263c207: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Illegal redeclaration of routine 'foo' (see line 1) at /tmp/E76bK6Rz4s line 1:␤------> [32mmy &foo; sub foo[33m⏏[31m { }[0m␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
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13:19 x3nU http://pastebin.com/x36xgs6K
13:19 x3nU wonder what that means
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13:21 masak error is on this line: http://github.com/mberends/MiniDBI/blob/master/lib/MiniDBD/mysql.pm6#L343
13:21 masak github++
13:21 masak seems the assignment goes awry for some reason.
13:22 masak and &mysql_real_connect is a native sub.
13:23 masak x3nU: I note that $result is never used subsequently in &connect. maybe try to remove the assignment?
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13:34 x3nU strange, i deleted that line and i still get *exactly* the same error
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13:34 x3nU then i put some random crap like "sj9q0wjdssa90sadk90dsa" to that line
13:34 x3nU and still same error
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13:34 x3nU what am i doing wrong? ;f
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13:36 masak not recompiling your .pir files, perhaps?
13:37 x3nU geez i don't have time for playing with that ;d maybe saturday ;d
13:38 x3nU bbl
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13:39 masak mberends and I discussed the need for a .pir file not to be preferred when the timestamp on their corresponding .pm file is newer.
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13:49 dalek rakudo: 661a0c8 | KodiB++ | README:
13:49 dalek rakudo: [README] Mention docs/running.pod.
13:49 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/661a0c8eb0cbcd52c03e05400f71ec030c8b56cb
13:49 dalek rakudo: 46b2c5a | KodiB++ | docs/running.pod:
13:49 dalek rakudo: [running.pod] Mention the REPL.
13:49 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/46b2c5a7dd3acde651a310cbbbb9770382447f95
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14:19 takadonet what does: "get_attr_str() not implemented in class 'Sub' mean?
14:21 plobsing takadonet: it likely means you tried to use a parrot sub (does rakudo wrap them?) as an object
14:22 masak golf and p6eval, that's the ticket.
14:22 takadonet plobsing: I'm not even using a parrot sub....
14:22 takadonet i know masak
14:22 plobsing get_attr_str is the vtable method used to look up object properties
14:23 masak we can help you to the extent that you golf and eval :)
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14:23 plobsing takadonet: it's a parrot leak somewhere, that's the short answer
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14:23 takadonet plobsing: thanks
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14:29 moritz_ a typical way to get such a leak is through introspection, or trying to access things from symbol or method tables
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14:32 takadonet moritz_: looks like itwill be the method tables
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14:33 moritz_ if I could turn all that rakudo specific knowledge into generic Perl 6 knowledge... :-)
14:34 masak moritz_: start using another implementation :)
14:36 * plobsing suspects other implementations will also have occasional problems with underlying systems poking through
14:36 moritz_ masak: hm, I should start porting simple scripts to niecza, and bug sorear++ when something goes wrong
14:37 masak moritz_: ooh! I want to do that too! \o/
14:37 masak let's spur each other somehow.
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14:37 masak niecza: say "OH HAI world!"
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14:37 moritz_ niecza: class A { submethod BUILD { say "OH HAI" } }; say A.new
14:37 p6eval niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«OH HAI world!␤»
14:37 p6eval niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Action method routine_declarator__S_submethod not yet implemented at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Niecza/Actions.pm line 54.␤Check failed␤»
14:37 moritz_ submethod NYI
14:37 moritz_ niecza: class A { method Str { say "OH HAI" } }; say A.new
14:37 takadonet well looks like when I call that method in conjunction with is(....) it fails....
14:38 p6eval niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤Bool::True␤»
14:38 takadonet however every method call before that works...
14:38 masak sorear: could you pls add submethods? kthxbai
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14:38 takadonet masak: real men don't use submethods :P
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14:38 moritz_ niecza: class A { method Numeric { 42 } } }; say A.new + 23
14:38 p6eval niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Confused at /tmp/NFgtAkvkHX line 1:␤------> [32mclass A { method Numeric { 42 } } [33m⏏[31m}; say A.new + 23[0m␤    expecting statement modifier loop␤Parse failed␤»
14:38 masak takadonet: that's news to me.
14:38 moritz_ niecza: class A { method Numeric { 42 } }; say A.new + 23
14:38 p6eval niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.IndexOutOfRangeException: Array index is out of range.␤  at SAFE.G408infix_58_60_43_62C (Niecza.Frame th) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤  at Niecza.Kernel.RunCore (Niecza.Frame cur) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤  at  line 0 (SAFE
14:38 p6eval ..infix:<+> @ 9…
14:39 * masak confusedly wonders whether he should start submitting nieczabugs
14:39 moritz_ sorear: see above :-)
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14:55 Smokz Hello
14:56 masak hi!
14:56 Smokz Hi!
14:57 masak hello
14:57 Smokz So what is this really
14:57 masak an excellent question!
14:57 masak this is really an experiment in human endurance.
14:58 Smokz Haha
14:58 Smokz Well
14:58 Smokz Let me tell you how I got here
14:58 masak how long can we make people wait before we make a release? :)
14:58 moritz_ but we already made a release
14:58 masak moritz_: I keep forgetting.
14:58 moritz_ which gives the whole thing a funny paint :-)
14:58 Smokz A
14:59 Smokz I read an article
14:59 masak \o/
14:59 Smokz "How to become a hacker" from some well-known guy
14:59 masak nice.
14:59 Smokz And here I am
14:59 moritz_ so, what do you want to hack on?
14:59 Smokz He mentioned Perl
15:00 Smokz Well
15:00 masak many of us here are hackers, and we'll happily share all our secrets with you. problem: it will take 10 years.
15:00 masak and there's no way to speed up the process.
15:00 Smokz I'm really new to this I know nothing about hacking really
15:00 Smokz But I want to get a hold of it
15:01 masak yay!
15:01 moritz_ Smokz: then I'd recommend you start by buying a book, and read it from front to cover
15:01 moritz_ and try out the things you've learned along the way
15:01 moritz_ I can recommend "Learning Perl" by Randal L. Schwartz et. al.
15:02 masak perhaps also "Modern Perl" by chromatic.
15:02 moritz_ (though it's about Perl 5, and we're discussing Perl 6 here)
15:02 Smokz What book would that be? The author of the article claimed that the best hackers were self-learned.
15:02 masak Smokz: self-learning does not preclude books.
15:02 masak Smokz: see http://www.perl.org/learn.html
15:02 Smokz True that (when I think about it)
15:02 Smokz I will do that in a moment
15:02 Smokz but first
15:03 Smokz From what I read I understood that perl is a programmer-language?
15:03 masak yes.
15:03 masak a really good one, too.
15:04 masak (in my opinion)
15:04 Smokz So for example how do you translate "Hi" into perl-ian? I get a feeling it's not that type of language.
15:05 moritz_ rakudo: say "Hi'
15:05 moritz_ rakudo: say "Hi"
15:05 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say \"Hi'"␤»
15:05 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Hi␤»
15:05 Smokz Cool!
15:05 slavik1 rakudo: print "Hi!"
15:05 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Hi!»
15:05 slavik1 :)
15:05 moritz_ Smokz: it's not a language like English or German - it's a set of instructions, glued by grammar rules
15:06 moritz_ rakudo: print (1..10).join(', ')
15:06 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10»
15:06 slavik1 rakudo: say join ', ' 1..10
15:06 masak rakudo: my $name = "Smokz"; say "hi $name!"
15:06 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say join '"␤»
15:06 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«hi Smokz!␤»
15:06 Smokz So in what way does it help a hacker, this perl language?
15:06 slavik1 rakudo: say join ', ', 1..10
15:06 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10␤»
15:06 slavik1 ok, that still works, good. :)
15:07 masak Smokz: so, imagine you're a hacker and want the computer to do things for you. Perl is a language to express to the computer what you want done.
15:07 masak Smokz: not only that, it's a language that supports both small, quick scripts and large applications.
15:07 slavik1 host is list.join(delim) interpreted versus join(delim, list) ? or are they the same once 'compiled'?
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15:07 slavik1 I hope that question makes sense
15:08 masak slavik1: it does. and I think the answer is "no".
15:08 moritz_ slavik1: internally, the sub form is re-dispatched to the method form
15:08 masak slavik1: because of the different argument order.
15:08 moritz_ slavik1: but that's done at run time, not at compile time
15:08 masak right. they dispatch, they are not "the same".
15:08 Smokz I see, this is far more complex than I thought, but still interesting. And how do I write to you only masak?
15:08 masak Smokz: here on IRC? you do "/msg masak ..."
15:08 slavik1 I see, is there an efficiency difference?
15:09 masak slavik1: one extra call in the case of the 'join' sub.
15:09 moritz_ slavik1: naturally the sub form is slower, because it's one more call
15:09 slavik1 so basically, the perl5 form is faster
15:09 moritz_ no
15:10 moritz_ perl 5 form = sub form
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15:13 moritz_ but the semantic difference is more important, for objects that might not be built-in lists or ranges
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15:15 mfollett What's the upper bounds on a number that I can reasonably expect the modulo operator to work?
15:16 moritz_ rakudo: say +^-1
15:16 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:16 moritz_ rakudo: say +^0
15:16 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«-1␤»
15:17 * moritz_ forgot the C trick to get MAX_INT
15:17 colomon mfollett: 2^31, ie a bit over 2 billion
15:18 flussence rakudo: say (2**33) % 5
15:18 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«2␤»
15:18 flussence goes off the rails with 2**34 though
15:18 colomon rakudo;
15:18 moritz_ might depend on your platform (32 vs. 64 bit)
15:18 colomon rakudo: say (2**33).WHAT
15:18 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
15:18 x3nU why there is limit? ;f
15:18 mfollett colomon:  Thanks, STL-PM is having a Perl 6 golfing match and someone ran into % and %% return improper values and I didn't know if that was a bug or just out of spec.
15:19 moritz_ x3nU: because bigint NYI
15:19 colomon spec says it's unlimited, but as moritz_ says, we only have machine native Ints so far.
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15:19 flussence 2**34 % 5 works on my 64-bit box
15:20 mfollett colomon:  So that'll change in the future?
15:20 colomon and while in theory the answer depends on whether you have 32 or 64 bit ints, in practice things start getting wonky when you go over 32-bit Ints.
15:20 flussence weird that **33 works on 32-bit though...
15:20 colomon mfollett: oh yes
15:20 moritz_ flussence: then 2**63 % 5 will too, probably
15:20 mfollett colomon: good to know, thanks
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15:21 colomon acutally, 2**63 % 5 probably will not work, I reckon.
15:23 colomon rakudo: say ((2**63) / 5).WHAT
15:23 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
15:23 colomon pugs: say 2**63
15:23 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«9223372036854775808␤»
15:24 colomon yeah, see, if you do 2**63 / 5, Rakudo will return a Num even on a 64-bit platform, I believe.  and that Num will lose the last 4 or 5 digits' worth of accuracy
15:24 colomon sad but true
15:25 * moritz_ accidentally installed a 32bit linux on his laptop :/
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15:26 * colomon verifies locally that ((2**63) / 5).WHAT is Num even on a 64-bit Rakudo.
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16:40 x3nU is Buf broken in 2010.09 and 2010.08
16:41 x3nU or was in 2010.07? ;d
16:41 x3nU i mean
16:41 x3nU rakudo: my $bytes = Buf.new([108,111,108]); say $bytes[0];
16:41 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«108 111 108␤»
16:41 x3nU in 2010.07 it would print 108
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16:42 moritz_ rakudo: my $bytes = Buf.new(108,111,108); say $bytes[0];
16:42 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«108␤»
16:42 moritz_ constructor API changed
16:43 x3nU thanks :)
16:43 masak during the summer I changed it first one way, then the other way.
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16:49 masak today's realization while teaching Perl 5: making sigils invariant and the disappearance of 'wantarray' are two aspects of the same bigger change in the language.
16:50 * moritz_ blogged about that some time ago
16:50 huf sigils and wantarray?
16:50 huf can i have a link to that blogpost?
16:52 masak moritz_: yes, URL? :)
16:52 takadonet I might submit it to reddit :P
16:54 masak so, turns out that our newfound friend Smokz was an aspiring blackhat. since he obviously didn't know what he was doing, I decided to be polite to him, and give him subtle signals that I didn't approve of such a carreer choice.
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17:02 masak nom &
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17:22 flussence Re what masak just said: surely that guy would've seen http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#what_is since he claims to have got here via there... *sigh*
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17:31 moritz_ phenny: tell masak about http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/immutable-sigils-and-context.html
17:31 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
17:33 dalek sprixel: d77d522 | diakopter++ | sprixel/ (4 files):
17:33 dalek sprixel: add TopLoader.pl6, the beginnings of the perlesque libraries written in perlesque.
17:33 dalek sprixel: review: http://github.com/diakopter/sprixel/commit/d77d522c38322771de79a9cc7a903cfe20a25185
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17:41 CGUser538 hello
17:41 takadonet CGUser538: hey
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18:28 sorear good * #perl6
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18:33 takadonet sorear: yo
18:34 x3nU is there way to push to Buf?
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19:01 masak ahojte!
19:01 phenny masak: 17:31Z <moritz_> tell masak about http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/immutable-sigils-and-context.html
19:01 masak moritz_: thank you.
19:03 takadonet masak: http://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/dr8z4/perl_6_immutable_sigils_and_context/
19:03 takadonet hopefully more people will see it :)
19:03 masak \o/ takadonet++
19:05 takadonet the topic should only be for the r/perl
19:05 masak x3nU: you should be able to .push to Buf. if you can't, please submit a rakudobug or delegate the submission of a rakudobug to someone :)
19:07 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = Buf.new(1, 2, 3); $x.push: 4; say $x.perl
19:07 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Method 'push' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/P69DJa1ior␤»
19:07 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = Buf.new(1, 2, 3); say $x.WHAT
19:08 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Buf()␤»
19:08 moritz_ WTBH?
19:09 sorear moritz_: kurila has immutabile sigils, fwiw
19:11 sorear moritz_: also, calls in tail position do not have a compile time known context
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19:16 isBEKaml OHHAI, #perl6!
19:16 takadonet isBEKaml: hey
19:16 isBEKaml (accidentally installed obsd :P )
19:18 isBEKaml haven't tried setting up rakudo yet on this machine. I, uhm, find it very minimal - so touring the countryside. ;)
19:18 masak isBEKaml: \o/
19:18 isBEKaml yo masak!
19:19 pythonian4000afk is now known as pythonian4000
19:21 masak isBEKaml: how's life?
19:21 isBEKaml masak: pretty tight on work end until the last few weeks, petered out now. So, I can get back to Rakudo! \o/
19:22 masak \o/
19:22 isBEKaml masak: how's things at your end?
19:22 masak isBEKaml: fine. just had a yummy evening meal. time for some hacking :)
19:23 isBEKaml masak: that's great! I'll be on leave from work this month end, time comes for full time lookey-pokey hacking! :)
19:24 jnthn Evening, all.
19:24 isBEKaml hi jnthn!
19:24 masak jnthn! \o/
19:26 jnthn o/ masak, isBEKaml
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19:27 isBEKaml jnthn: I was watching your talk live a couple of days ago. Any chance the slides will be available online?
19:28 isBEKaml I'd like to look over them again and if possible, watch the recorded video too.
19:28 zby_home_ left #perl6
19:28 jnthn isBEKaml: The slides for the signatures one are pretty similar to the ones from YAPC::Europe, and are on my site's talks page
19:29 jnthn isBEKaml: I'll get both up soon.
19:29 jnthn I've mostly been exhausted since returning from France.
19:29 isBEKaml jnthn++ (rest first, hacks l8r)
19:30 envi joined #perl6
19:32 isBEKaml to those that have been to the conference, how was France? Anyone wound up saying "rue" for "streets" and the other way round? ;)
19:33 x3nU wtf? i don't get it, 2009.10 windows:
19:33 rindolf joined #perl6
19:33 x3nU 09*
19:33 x3nU >C:\Users\xenu>perl6 -e "my $x = Buf.new(1, 2, 3); $x.push: 4; say $x.perl;"
19:33 x3nU Method 'push' not found for invocant of class '' in main program body at line 1
19:33 x3nU 2009.09 linux:
19:34 zby_home___ left #perl6
19:34 x3nU [root@462 ~]# perl6 -e "my $x = Buf.new(1, 2, 3); $x.push: 4; say $x.perl"
19:34 x3nU ===SORRY!===
19:34 x3nU Malformed my at line 1, near "= Buf.new("
19:34 x3nU 2009.08 linux:
19:34 zby_home joined #perl6
19:34 isBEKaml x3nU: you got those from 2009?
19:34 x3nU [xenu@sundance ~]$ perl6 -e "my $x = Buf.new(1, 2, 3); $x.push: 4; say $x.perl"
19:34 x3nU ===SORRY!===
19:34 x3nU Malformed my at line 1, near "= Buf.new("
19:34 x3nU 2010* sorry
19:34 x3nU ;f
19:34 sorear hello masak
19:34 masak hello sorear
19:35 isBEKaml $x.push: 4 is valid usage? I don't know - I'm just guessing..
19:35 x3nU it's respectively: 2010.09 win32, 2010.09 linux, 2010.08 linux
19:35 x3nU isBEKaml: i copied that from
19:36 timbunce joined #perl6
19:36 x3nU oh wait
19:36 jnthn isBEKaml: I'd rue making such a mistake...
19:36 * x3nU facepalms
19:36 isBEKaml rakudo: my $x = Buf.new(1,2,3); $x.push: 4; $x.perl.say;
19:36 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Method 'push' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/oJ1KP5kMN8␤»
19:36 isBEKaml jnthn: ejjjactly!
19:38 envi left #perl6
19:39 jnthn isBEKaml: Overall, the conference was good, the beer event at the conference allowed me to drink free Hoegarden, and I had some really nice food. Only downside was that the venue was in a crappy part of the city that's basically a building site at the moment.
19:40 isBEKaml jnthn: I was afraid you'd say good cheese, good wine. :D
19:40 plainhao left #perl6
19:40 isBEKaml jnthn: to the downside, but hey - you got a good deal of walking to shake off those calories!
19:40 mavrc left #perl6
19:42 envi joined #perl6
19:43 sorear jnthn: Have you seen TimToady lately?  diakopter is getting concerned
19:43 jnthn sorear: I haven't, but I've barely been on #perl6 myself of late.
19:43 jnthn sorear: Oh, isn't he en-route to YAPC::Asia at the moment?
19:44 sorear Oh, I meant IRL.  I thought you went to the same place
19:44 sorear masak: How would I go about creating a bug queue for Niecza?
19:44 jnthn No, no, France != Japan. :-)
19:44 envi left #perl6
19:44 jnthn Japan = metro runs perfectly. France = metro doesn't run due to strikes.
19:44 masak sorear: technically, the RT queue is for Perl 6, not just Rakudo.
19:44 jnthn ;-)
19:44 moritz_ sorear: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/issues
19:44 moritz_ like this?
19:46 kjeldahl joined #perl6
19:46 sorear neat
19:47 jnthn sorear: Give masak++ that URL in order to receive your 1024 bug reports. ;-)
19:48 * masak cackles
19:48 moritz_ niecza: class A { has $.x = 3 }; say A.new.x
19:48 p6eval niecza 9f1bf0e: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object␤  at Niecza.Kernel.Assign (Niecza.Frame th, Niecza.Variable lhs, Niecza.Variable rhs) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤  at SAFE.G476infix_58_60_61_62C (Niecza.Frame th)
19:48 p6eval ..[0x00…
19:48 mavrc joined #perl6
19:52 * moritz_ opened the first 3 tickets
19:52 masak moritz_++
19:53 sorear This should be a bit more managable than my TODO lists of doom :)
19:53 masak been there, done that.
19:53 sorear I think TODO lists only really work well for single people
19:54 jnthn Married people never have time to do anything on them.
19:55 masak even those that are engaged are endangered.
19:56 moritz_ evolutionary speaking, singles are endangered :-)
19:56 sukria left #perl6
19:57 isBEKaml I see a battle of wits... ;)
19:57 isBEKaml or is that a battle at wit's end? :P
20:00 Italian_Plumber left #perl6
20:01 lichtkind_ joined #perl6
20:02 colomon seems to me like my to-do lists always were a disaster even when I was single.
20:02 lichtkind left #perl6
20:02 lichtkind_ is now known as lichtkind
20:03 masak my TODO lists have a tendency to revolt against me. I'm single.
20:04 takadonet what is an easy way to grab all the attribute of an object?
20:04 isBEKaml $obj.^attributes ? (I may be wrong, though)
20:04 sukria joined #perl6
20:05 isBEKaml rakudo: class A { has $.x; has $.y }; A.^attributes.perl.say;
20:05 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«Method 'attributes' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in 'Mu::attribs' at line 1216:CORE.setting␤  in 'Mu::perl' at line 1225:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
20:05 jnthn .^attributes works, you just can't .perl it at the moment
20:05 isBEKaml rakudo: class A { has $.x; has $.y }; A.^attributes.say;
20:05 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«$!x$!y␤»
20:05 jnthn Somebody should really fix our meta-model...
20:07 isBEKaml jnthn: that error message doesn't say anything to me, TBH. The first line is enough to throw me off track.
20:07 jnthn It shouldn't happen.
20:10 dukeleto rakudo: class A { has $.x; has $.y }; say ~A.^attributes;
20:10 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«$!x $!y␤»
20:10 dukeleto darn.
20:10 jnthn It's because .perl introspects attributes and the meta-class of Attribute doesn't know how to talk about its attributes.
20:11 Xenofur` joined #perl6
20:11 isBEKaml From what you say, it's like looking from both ends of the tube at once.
20:11 Xenofur` left #perl6
20:11 nrr joined #perl6
20:12 MayDaniel left #perl6
20:12 jnthn That's fine, you just have to tie the tube in a knot.
20:12 isBEKaml darn, I knew I should have said pipe!
20:15 dukeleto Moebius Meta-Model?
20:16 jnthn 6model # follow the 6 from the top into the loop at the bottom...you can go around forever... :-)
20:16 masak isBEKaml: if you're looking into the tube, you're standing in the way, and the zeroes and ones shuttling through it won't get through. :)
20:17 masak jnthn: aaaah nooooo NO CARRIER
20:17 zby_home__ joined #perl6
20:17 isBEKaml well, you never get anywhere with mobius model. you just wind up in the same place you started. :D
20:17 jnthn masak: Don't see 6model out loud in Swedish either. :P
20:18 masak jnthn: too few 'l's, but I see what you mean :)
20:18 zby_home left #perl6
20:18 jnthn masak: I'm a little surprised that I only realized that a week or so ago...
20:18 masak now that you mentioned it, so am I :P
20:18 isBEKaml masak: well, the bits know how to work around blocks. They have survived so far. :P
20:19 rindolf left #perl6
20:32 masak mfollett++ # http://twitter.com/mfollett/status/27373676129
20:32 masak and http://twitter.com/michaelschade/status/27373895044 \o/
20:33 zostay left #perl6
20:33 jnthn mfollett++
20:33 zostay joined #perl6
20:33 justatheory left #perl6
20:34 ggoebel left #perl6
20:34 * sorear is disturbed by the tight coupling between Cursor and STD on the $*HIGHFOO globals
20:35 masak sorear: that sounds bad, but could you linger a bit on why it's bad?
20:36 sorear masak: because it isn't at all clear whether this is supposed to be a public API
20:37 sorear the part of STD which generates "Expecting any of ..." error fragments depends on an undocumented extension to the regex engine
20:37 masak :S
20:37 sorear I'm probably going to implement it in niecza, but after TimToady++ gets back from YAPC::Asia I'll have to find out what to do about this
20:37 dalek niecza/master: b6f56c0 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
20:37 dalek niecza/master: Implement minimal matching
20:37 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/b6f56c0ceb74ae2f0eefedd3003fd54a3db889e0
20:47 frettled Oh, YAPC::Asia is now, and I've missed it completely.
20:48 frettled Abigail tried to lure me.
20:48 jnthn frettled: Worth going to if you get chance.
20:48 jnthn I'd love to go again.
20:49 frettled I'll have to learn to cross my konnichi-was and wakarimasens ;)
20:50 jnthn nah, just learn "nama biru"
20:50 * masak can guess what that means
20:50 jnthn ...oh, best add "onegeishimasu" for politeness :-)
20:50 masak "biru" looks like a sound loan.
20:51 * sorear hasn't learned nama yet
20:51 jnthn sorear: draught
20:51 masak om nama nama rama.
20:51 jnthn Well, I think it literally means "fresh" or something
20:51 jnthn But implication is from the tap, not from a bottle.
20:51 isBEKaml left #perl6
20:52 molecules joined #perl6
20:52 sorear interesting
20:52 jnthn Yes, nama biru tends to be. :-)
20:52 sorear most modifiers like that end in /[na|no|i]$/ unless they're loans of an entire phrase
20:54 frettled jnthn: I think I may need to learn a different phrase, as I really don't like beer.
20:55 molecules rakduo: say 'result is ' ~  { undef // 5 };
20:55 sorear rakUDo
20:55 jnthn There Is No undef
20:55 mavrc left #perl6
20:55 jnthn also that :-)
20:56 frettled But I think a rakduo would be nice.
20:56 masak there is no rakduo.
20:56 * diakopter thinks of adding that to p6eval
20:56 jnthn rakudo: say 'result is ' ~  { undef // 5 };
20:56 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of undef as a value; in Perl 6 please use something more specific:␤     Mu (the "most undefined" type object),␤   an undefined type object such as Int,␤    Nil as an empty list,␤    *.notdef as a matcher or method,␤ Any:U as a type constraint␤
20:56 p6eval .. or fail() as a failur…
20:56 moritz_ rakudo: say fail().perl
20:56 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5:  ( no output )
20:56 * sorear wonders when to tell p6* about niecza
20:56 molecules rakudo: say 'result is ' ~  { Mu // 5 };
20:56 frettled ooh, awesome error message!
20:56 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«result is _block125␤»
20:57 cotto !seen pmichaud
20:57 masak rakudo: say ('r', <a k u d>.roll(4), 'o').join for ^10
20:57 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«rkukao␤rudado␤rkduko␤rudkko␤rukkko␤rdukko␤rddako␤rdakko␤rauuuo␤rakdko␤»
20:57 masak oh wait. that's what pick's good at.
20:57 masak rakudo: say ('r', <a k u d>.pick(4), 'o').join for ^10
20:57 molecules Does // exist in Perl 6?
20:57 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«raukdo␤rudkao␤ruadko␤raukdo␤ruakdo␤rukado␤rukado␤rdukao␤rdkauo␤rdukao␤»
20:57 masak molecules: sure.
20:57 frettled guess where P5 got it from :)
20:57 jnthn yes
20:58 jnthn Note you wanted parens there, not  { ... }
20:58 moritz_ masak: people usually get the 'ra' right :-)
20:58 jnthn rakudo: say 'result is ' ~  ( Mu // 5 )
20:58 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«result is 5␤»
20:58 moritz_ rakudo: say ('ra', <k u d>.pick(*), 'o').join for ^10
20:58 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«raukdo␤rakduo␤rakudo␤rakudo␤radkuo␤radkuo␤raukdo␤raukdo␤rakduo␤radkuo␤»
20:59 * masak thinks "radkuo" sounds pretty rad
20:59 jnthn raukdo must smoke a lot.
20:59 molecules @masak, @sorear, @jnthn (and anyone else I missed)Thanks for the feedback everyone.
20:59 sorear can't we just call it らくど
20:59 masak molecules: anytime.
20:59 diakopter raduko must dump alot
20:59 sorear molecules: twitter much? ;)
20:59 diakopter wait, I don't see raduko on there.
21:00 molecules @sorear not at all
21:00 sorear Then I wonder where this '@sorear' is coming from
21:00 molecules The only chatting I've really done is here, unless you count comments on StackOverflow
21:00 masak sorear: prefixing with @ could be seen as a honorific, implying op-ness.
21:01 molecules That's what people use for comments on stackoverflow. That is it here?
21:01 diakopter no
21:01 molecules That's what people use for comments on stackoverflow. What is it here?
21:01 frettled molecules: they probably got it from Twitter.
21:01 sorear foo: and foo, are commonly seen, but there's no one official way
21:01 frettled Here, we just use the nick, our clients take care of highlighting automagically.
21:01 fod left #perl6
21:01 sorear TIMTOWDI
21:02 molecules sorear: frettled: Thus? Thanks
21:02 frettled for instance, yes!
21:02 frettled (and no problem)
21:03 sorear @molecules It doesn't really matter, I was just amused
21:03 molecules sorear: Thanks for helping me avoid future embarassment
21:05 masak molecules++ # welcome to the team! here's your badge.
21:06 molecules masak: Thanks. What's the badge? Sorry about my irc illiteracy. :-)
21:07 frettled masak: why not a pope card? :)
21:07 masak molecules: the badges look like this. http://modules.perl6.org/
21:07 masak molecules: you get a courtesy "newcomer badge", self-expiring in 7 days.
21:08 masak frettled: I'm fresh out of pope cards. I've had an unprecedented number of pope visits lately.
21:08 molecules masak: Thanks.
21:09 masak also, the newcomer badge looks much better than those on that page. I never professed to being able to draw well :)
21:09 Util New RC solution: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Polynomial_long_division#Perl_6
21:11 envi joined #perl6
21:11 masak Util: pretty.
21:12 diakopter www.yahoo.com down?
21:13 masak diakopter: not just you. http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/yahoo.com
21:13 diakopter masak: :)
21:13 diakopter finance. and mail. seem to work tho
21:13 masak molecules: out of curiosity: what brings you here this fine evening?
21:14 _kaare left #perl6
21:17 molecules I was frustrated with perl 5.8.8 not having the defined-or operator and was thinking about writing a module like Perl6::defined_or. However, I wanted to be sure I knew how it worked in Perl 6.
21:17 molecules I was also just looking at Using Perl 6 and noticed that // doesn't show up.
21:18 masak molecules: arguably, it should be in there.
21:18 molecules Table 3.1 has a list of "example" operators. Do we want to include an appendix with all of the operators?
21:18 masak rakudo: my $a; $a //= 42; say $a
21:18 p6eval rakudo 46b2c5: OUTPUT«42␤»
21:19 frettled molecules: I'm using the defined-or operator as an argument for converting to Perl 5.12.x at work (or at the very least, 5.10.1).
21:21 skids left #perl6
21:21 molecules frettled: Good luck. I tried arguing for upgrading, but now that you mention it, I should bring up niceties like defined-or.
21:21 frettled Thanks, and good luck to you, too.
21:22 frettled One of my other arguments is version parity across our installed system base.
21:22 masak bring up niceties like 'say', 'given/when', and smartmatching, too.
21:22 molecules Definitely. I guess I need to actually demo them to be persuasive.
21:23 frettled Most of our client-side servers run Debian Lenny, which has 5.10.0 (sigh), but several backend servers use Slackware with 5.8.x (argh).  That means I either have to cripple my code to work in all places, or use different code.  Gnarly.
21:23 justatheory joined #perl6
21:24 zby_home__ left #perl6
21:24 frettled The problem, as I see it, is that $boss still codes Perl 4, but in Perl 5, with the exception of learning how to do elementary Perl 5 OO (Y2K-style) a couple of years ago.
21:24 frettled It's an uphill battle, then, to argue for new features, which he doesn't comprehend the need for.
21:25 cognominal left #perl6
21:25 frettled Trying to work with Perl _6_ under those conditions is rather funny.  :D
21:25 molecules frettled: Borrow one of his 100-line programs and whittle it down to 25 lines using new features. :)
21:26 Mowah left #perl6
21:26 frettled I value my sanity.
21:26 frettled …what's left of it
21:26 masak mwhahaha
21:26 cognominal joined #perl6
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21:36 gfldex frettled: your boss doesnt deserve you
21:37 * diakopter wonders if gfldex is frettled's boss
21:37 frettled *ROFL*
21:37 diakopter :)
21:38 gfldex " which
21:38 gfldex he doesn't comprehend the need for."
21:38 gfldex if i would be his boss i would know a way to solve his problems
21:39 frettled heh
21:39 diakopter (my jest was suggesting gfldex was being humorously sarcastic)
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