Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-10-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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01:11 colomon \o
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07:21 mathw jnthn: Good blog post. Sounds like the multi-dispatch spec needs some more work.
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07:36 jnthn mathw: Yes, I'd certainly appreciate some answers to some of the issues I wrote about.
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07:47 sorear interesting
07:48 sorear firefox is rendering the open quotes in jnthn's blog as em quads
07:48 sorear but they copy to the clipboard as U+201C LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK
07:49 mathw Firefox bug, or font bug...
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07:49 sorear fwiw, multiple dispatch of this sort is very confusing to me too
07:49 sorear which is why I modified v6/STD.pm6 to not use it
07:50 mathw I don't find it so confusing, or at least I didn't
07:50 mathw I wasn't actually aware there was a spec change around it so that confused me
07:51 sorear in other "spec change without asking" news, I find the new spec for Nil much less strangely consistent than the old one
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07:55 mathw Hmm we still have Nil?
07:55 mathw Oh it was undef we got rid of
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08:54 masak good morning, #perl6!
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08:58 masak sorear: re Nil: I hear ya. however, I think that the most recent Nil changes were an improvement.
08:58 masak and I don't think that the one suggestion you have made so far -- to make Nil undefined -- would fly.
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09:02 sorear masak: no
09:02 sorear masak: Nil being undefined is one of the parts of the CURRENT SPEC that I am complaining about
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09:05 masak oh, sorry. I meant '[...] suggestion to make () undefined'
09:09 flussence Are type objects without a value considered undefined?
09:12 masak type objects are undefined, period. at least to a first approximation.
09:13 flussence I can sorta see Nil-as-undef making sense there, as being a type object that can never have a value.
09:14 flussence (assuming it works that way)
09:14 sorear Nil isn't a type object
09:14 sorear it's a super magic parcel that has a CANDO and is not defined, but is a perfectly valid zero-item parcel
09:14 sorear unlike Parcel, whcih is not defined and NOT a valid zero item parcel
09:15 sorear also, () and {}.() used to both return Nil because they were exactly the same
09:15 sorear now, the strange consistency of ( ... ) being a normal statement list is broken!
09:16 flussence this all sounds a lot more complicated than it needs to be
09:16 sorear That's what I said.
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09:19 masak here's one thing that we would like to be true: when we use .+ and .* and .?, the results come back in a Parcel. when the Parcel is empty, it's also undefined. that way, we can use infix:<//> to supply another value on failure.
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09:25 masak here's another thing that we would like to be true: when we do a map or a grep of a for loop, the results come back in a Parcel. when the Parcel is empty, (etc)
09:25 sorear what bothers me *most* is the part where assigning Nil to a variable causes it to assume its declared default value or to become empty and undefined
09:25 sorear while assigning () causes it to remain defined
09:26 sorear so LISTSTORE needs to differentiate between Nil and (), also every % and @ variable needs extra slots to store .defined and default value
09:26 sorear this drives me up the wall as an optimization studier
09:27 * sorear out
09:28 masak I agree that this whole area is full of corner cases. the waterbed is bulging more than usual.
09:29 Tene jnthn: very good blog post.  I have some vague ideas about answers, but I need more thought.
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09:34 masak jnthn: "A candidate list is a list of things that we can work out way through calling." -- I don't understand this sentence. http://6guts.wordpress.com/2010/10/17/wrestling-with-dispatch/
09:34 jnthn typo
09:34 jnthn s/out/our/
09:35 masak ah.
09:35 masak I read it as "work out way instain mother" :)
09:38 jnthn You need to frigth back against the lolinstinct now and then. :P
09:40 masak I am truely sorry. :P
09:41 frettled masak: look, a kitten!
09:42 masak and it's being chased by big angry brown things!
09:42 mathw DO NOT WANT
09:44 frettled Domoku?
09:44 frettled not to be confused with pedobear
09:44 frettled n
09:45 masak "domokun" sounds familiar, yes.
09:46 frettled http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/God-kills-kitten.jpg
09:47 frettled Actually, it's just "Domo", but with the diminutive -kun added.
09:48 * masak knew he could count on frettled++ to sort out the details
09:49 frettled \§/
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10:26 dalek evalbot: 66aacfe | moritz++ | / (10 files):
10:26 dalek evalbot: move build scripts to a separate directory
10:26 dalek evalbot: review: http://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/66aacfe15a53ba58e29e3a4319521f3e75a75fde
10:27 ggoebel left #perl6
10:29 Infinoid diakopter: ping
10:37 dalek evalbot: 671fe6e | moritz++ | build-scripts/rebuild- (3 files):
10:37 dalek evalbot: [build-scripts] be more robust about startup directory
10:37 dalek evalbot: review: http://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/671fe6ee7f1199ce968f2827edd8e6f229621a83
10:37 dalek evalbot: dd14296 | moritz++ | build.pl:
10:37 dalek evalbot: add generic build script
10:37 dalek evalbot: review: http://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/dd14296d2bfd874865193ab6a2f21c0cfdf1a0cb
10:37 dalek evalbot: 801ef54 | moritz++ | build (2 files):
10:37 dalek evalbot: [build.pl] thinko
10:37 dalek evalbot: review: http://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/801ef5475704ed3216ad95dad818b70754ff6a19
10:37 dalek evalbot: 928e895 | moritz++ | build.pl:
10:37 dalek evalbot: mode changes
10:37 dalek evalbot: review: http://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/928e895eb04f5935a556ae28106b8fa50debd83c
10:37 dalek evalbot: 85abe2a | moritz++ | build.pl:
10:37 dalek evalbot: [build] fix paths
10:37 dalek evalbot: review: http://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/85abe2a0dcdae31bfbd13c2262c91807c50d55a1
10:37 dalek evalbot: bdbef9e | moritz++ | build-scripts/rebuild-rakudo.pl:
10:37 dalek evalbot: missing shebang line
10:37 dalek evalbot: review: http://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/bdbef9e37116f75987b8c415a328b6542587b05a
10:42 dalek evalbot: edbd64a | moritz++ | build-scripts/rebuild-rakudo.pl:
10:42 dalek evalbot: don't die in absence of revision file
10:42 dalek evalbot: review: http://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/edbd64a3d20740982c359787e6fb522b38df763d
10:44 szbalint moritz_: good morning, I take it? :)
10:44 moritz_ good localtime() szbalint :-)
10:44 moritz_ vacations here
10:45 masak \o/
10:47 moritz_ \o/ indeed
10:51 masak jnthn: "These are the good consequences, and I don’t disagree with they are improvements." s/with/that/
10:51 masak jnthn: post is very good so far.
10:51 jnthn :P
10:51 jnthn Apart from the typos...and grammaros...
10:52 jnthn It'd be so much easier if I could blog without having to use words.
10:52 jnthn Oh, wait...
10:52 masak an entire blog post consisting only of smilies and lolcats.
10:52 jnthn It's call icanhascheezburger.com :P
10:53 jnthn ...called!
10:53 masak :)
10:53 dalek evalbot: eacb7e6 | moritz++ | run.sh:
10:53 dalek evalbot: add run script
10:53 dalek evalbot: review: http://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/eacb7e66193987f66e76b3de98aa4328054e99f7
10:54 jnthn I had this hope that writing the post would make the problem a bunch more clear to me.
10:54 moritz_ did it?
10:55 jnthn I don't feel like it helped find a solution, but having to articulate the issues helped me understand them a bit better.
10:55 masak I feel the same reading it.
10:55 masak jnthn++
10:55 jnthn I figured it was better to spend the time writing a coherentish post on them than trying to discuss it from scratch on IRC though.
10:55 * moritz_ found it quite impressive
10:55 jnthn The issues are, I fear, quite deep.
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10:56 jnthn Either that or I'm missing something obvious.
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10:56 masak I'm now convinced that things need to change, one way or another. also modulo me missing something obvious.
10:57 jnthn I'd kinda prefer it to be that I'm missing something, but I fear that we actually do just have some design issues to work through.
10:57 masak it'll be really nice to get to those, though.
10:57 jnthn Yes, and I think we really need to.
10:58 masak lunch &
10:58 jnthn I also wonder how far the exception dispatcher thing goes.
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10:58 jnthn Can you nextsame to the next exception handler for example.
10:59 jnthn Not in current spec, but maybe there's an interesting unification to consider here.
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11:16 moritz_ http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/visitors.svg # non-search engine referral breakdown for perlgeek.de
11:16 moritz_ generated with Perl 6, of course
11:16 colomon of course
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11:16 moritz_ :-)
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11:24 moritz_ perl6: say 'now on new host, diakopter++'
11:24 p6eval pugs, rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«now on new host, diakopter++␤»
11:24 dalek evalbot: 2710cd8 | moritz++ | lib/EvalbotExecuter.pm:
11:24 dalek evalbot: fix a path
11:24 dalek evalbot: review: http://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/2710cd8a84ce8d30e3a7aac0cd66c7c6ecae4fef
11:26 colomon jnthn: What's the status of R* MSI on Windows?
11:28 colomon (it looks like I've got R* from July on my Windows box, wondering if there is a more recent release available.)
11:29 moritz_ ftp://x3n.info/pub/apps/win32/x86/rakudo-star/
11:30 colomon moritz_++
11:32 colomon sweet!
11:34 jnthn Aye, somebody++ != me did a more up to date one.
11:34 colomon I'm slowly getting ready to swap a new harddrive into my MBP, and making sure I can do my current $work project on my Windows box is an important paranoid step.  :)
11:36 colomon hmmm, guess I need ufo, too.  :)
11:36 colomon errr, does ufo work on Windows yet?
11:41 * moritz_ would be surprised
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11:43 colomon well, it generated a very nice makefile
11:43 colomon which doesn't work
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11:45 jnthn If it's anything like the ones pls makes, it'll be a pile of fail on Windows.
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11:46 colomon suppose I can probably get things working on my Linux box.... :\
11:53 * colomon rebuilding Rakudo there...
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12:03 colomon oh, neutro++
12:03 masak tadzik++
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12:06 Kodi rakudo: sub f (:$a) { say "hai" }; f "a" => 1; # Known?
12:06 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤  in 'f' at line 1:/tmp/L0Ace0iz4a␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/L0Ace0iz4a␤»
12:07 colomon rakudo: sub f (:$a) { say "hai" }; f("a" => 1); # Known?
12:07 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤  in 'f' at line 1:/tmp/EdMrIcaFcT␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/EdMrIcaFcT␤»
12:07 Kodi rakudo: sub f (*%h) { say "hai" }; f now => 1; # Trickier.
12:07 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤  in 'f' at line 1:/tmp/xSZ3HiYL6B␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/xSZ3HiYL6B␤»
12:08 jnthn colomon: Correct
12:08 jnthn colomon: I'ts only a named arg if the LHS is unquoted iirc.
12:08 colomon !
12:09 Kodi rakudo: sub f (:$a) { say "hai" }; f(|("a" => 1));
12:09 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤  in 'f' at line 1:/tmp/VOEZjn4aET␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/VOEZjn4aET␤»
12:09 Kodi Should that work?
12:09 colomon rakudo: sub f (:$a) { say "hai" }; f(a => 1); # Known?
12:09 jnthn rakudo: sub f (:$a) { say "hai" }; f(|{"a" => 1});
12:09 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«hai␤»
12:09 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«hai␤»
12:09 jnthn Needs to be a hash I guess
12:09 moritz_ aye
12:09 jnthn Maybe pair after | could be made to work
12:09 moritz_ a list will interpolate as positional pairs
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12:42 masak jnthn: if you got to decide, how would the multi/proto model look? as it did before the last big spec change?
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12:48 jnthn masak: As mentioned, there were genuine problems with that model too.
12:49 jnthn So I'm not sure going back to it is really progress.
12:51 jnthn The real user-visible problem with the current design is the need to write a proto.
12:51 jnthn The more minor one is we need to sort out or dispatcher vs code object story.
12:51 jnthn The other issues are much more about implementability.
12:52 masak I think I could stand writing a proto in a lexical scope, but I'd hate it in a class.
12:52 masak implementability is important for the user too. at least for the power user, who relies on a sound mental model of what's happening under the hood.
12:53 jnthn Yes, true.
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12:53 jnthn As somebody who has given a lot of Perl 6 talks, I do get nervous when I feel we're heading for an implementation that's too comlex to explain.
12:54 masak TheDamian once said about multi dispatch that it needs to be really really simple. much thanks to that sentiment, we ended up with the current rules for tightness.
12:54 masak (for a while we had manhattan distances and stuff)
12:54 jnthn Well, this is actually sort of orthogonla.
12:55 jnthn The problem isn't about the candidate sorting here.
12:55 jnthn But yes, simple++.
13:00 masak I know it's a completely different problem.
13:00 masak but I'm taking candidate sorting as an example because I consider that to be an area where we Got It Right(tm).
13:00 jnthn *nod*
13:01 masak right now it seems to be that we're in a bad situation: (1) old model was bad in some ways, (2) new model better in some ways, worse in some, and appears unimplementable, (3) no sane model in sight.
13:02 jnthn I'm still trying to understand where the problem really is, tbh.
13:02 jnthn I think part of it is that we've tried too hard to conflate dispatchers and code objects.
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13:04 * moritz_ eats a slize of self-made hazelnut cake with a topping of white chocolate and nougat
13:05 jnthn Sharing the description without sharing the cake is cruel. :P
13:05 jnthn That sounds SO nice!
13:06 moritz_ and it is.. just visit me if you want a slice :-)
13:07 moritz_ just a random thought... would it help to make the dispatcher-curried-with-candidate-list more explicit?
13:08 moritz_ currently the spec tries to hide it under the hood, which might not work out too well
13:10 jnthn moritz_: That's somewhat what I'm thinking may help.
13:10 jnthn moritz_: It still doesn't answer everything though.
13:10 jnthn Particularly the "how do we associate the {*} in the proto with the correct candidate list"
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13:10 jnthn Which is the really big headache here.
13:11 moritz_ another thought (mostly unrelated): maybe &foo.wrap having an in-place, mutating effect is the real problem?
13:11 jnthn Not quite
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13:11 jnthn What is the real problem is that we expect &foo to refer to the proto
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13:11 jnthn But also to imply something about the candidate list
13:11 jnthn Which differs in different scopes
13:13 jnthn And you can't just say something like "oh, it's the calling scope"
13:13 jnthn Because referencing &foo in a given scope needs to capture that scope's idea of the candidate list
13:13 jnthn Wherever we end up doing the invocation from.
13:14 jnthn BTW, pondering submitting a Perl 6 talk to http://www.scandevconf.se/2011/call-for-papers/
13:15 jnthn masak: It's in Sweden, dunno if you're interested in submitting to ^ too.
13:16 masak will check it out. thanks.
13:16 jnthn (Was thinking for the Emerging Technologies track)
13:18 masak ooh, it's in Göteborg.
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13:19 jnthn aye
13:19 jnthn De talar funny. ;-)
13:20 masak my favourite Swedish dialect. :)
13:25 [particle]1 is now known as [particle]
13:26 jnthn Huh? I thought Skanska was everyone's favourite. :P
13:28 daxim ♪ vinna kinky roligt ♪
13:28 masak whoa :)
13:30 uniejo left #perl6
13:30 jnthn ...win kinky really?
13:31 daxim the hat is yours, jnthn
13:31 jnthn .oO( Sounds like it's a wizard hat...now, where's my coat... )
13:31 masak jnthn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT9ZNJ2YS64
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13:33 slavik1 jnthn: robe
13:33 slavik1 not coat
13:35 masak slavik1: damn I gotta write down your names or something
13:35 slavik1 ?
13:35 slavik1 it should be slavik ... but auto auth doesn't work sometimes
13:35 masak thought you'd catch the reference. slightly obscure in-joke, perhaps.
13:36 slavik1 I didn't catch it all :(
13:36 jnthn Oh noes, epic lolknowledge fails.
13:36 masak there are three canonical bloodninja dialogues.
13:36 masak the above quote is from the third and shortest one.
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13:37 * jnthn remembers it now :-)
13:37 slavik1 oh yeah
13:37 slavik1 HA!
13:37 * slavik1 read it again
13:38 masak :)
13:38 daxim I collected internet memes before they went mainstream
13:38 daxim my next birthday party will be meme-themed
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13:39 jnthn I can already guess what the food is going to be. :-)
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13:45 dalek book: 3e7c09b | moritz++ | src/multi-dispatch.pod:
13:45 dalek book: [multi] remove a now obsolete comment
13:45 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/3e7c09bb9779ed08c877128d2a6a8e25bfbae1a8
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13:56 dalek book: a0e9bcb | moritz++ | src/multi-dispatch.pod:
13:56 dalek book: [multi] re-work introductory section based on feedback from jkeenan++ in http://github.com/perl6/book/issues/#issue/26
13:56 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/a0e9bcbf2b853284bfd08dd551b6f0cf2e34d7e0
13:56 jnthn moritz_: I did a commit to subs-n-sigs.pod not so long back that may have helped with some of jkeenan++'s issues.
13:56 jnthn Feel free to see if you think the patch closes any.
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14:00 BooK I need to ignore dalek
14:01 moritz_ feel free :-)
14:11 slavik1 dalek is not to be ignored!
14:17 masak BooK: your complaint is essentially that we commit too much around here? :)
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14:22 BooK masak: if I had a complaint, it would be about you guys having a project named after me ;-)
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14:24 masak BooK: that was my idea; sorry :/
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14:29 moritz_ rakudo: say 'book' eq 'Book'
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14:29 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
14:29 * moritz_ doesn't know what BooK means
14:30 masak rakudo: say 'book' eq 'Book' eq 'BooK'
14:30 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
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14:39 moritz_ rakudo: say (a => 3).key.WHAT
14:39 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
14:39 moritz_ rakudo: say (a => 3).key.PARROT
14:39 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«String␤»
14:39 moritz_ this is not good[tm]
14:40 moritz_ rakudo: say (a => 3).key.trans(['a'] => ['b'])
14:40 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 2 passed, 3 (or more) expected␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/dyqTwRjc8F␤»
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14:41 masak we have that problems in more places than that.
14:41 moritz_ that's one that kills the to-json multi in the book :(
14:41 masak :(
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15:08 colomon rakudo: class A { method aaa() { say "aaa"; }; }; $b.aaa;
15:08 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤too few positional arguments: 2 passed, 3 (or more) expected␤»
15:08 colomon LTA
15:08 masak colomon: my $b
15:08 masak known bug.
15:09 masak http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=78252
15:09 colomon I see your response was much the same as mine.  ;)
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15:11 colomon is anyone working on it?
15:12 masak not aware of anyone working on any RT ticket at the moment.
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15:12 colomon masak++ for knowing what is up
15:12 masak "I'm not aware" is not the same as "knowing what is up" :P
15:12 colomon wish this wasn't a distraction from $work at the moment.
15:13 masak I feel like that most every day.
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15:16 colomon "knowing what is up" means finding the RT ticket in seconds, BTW.
15:17 masak ah :) that's more a special sort of benign brain damage, if you ask me :P
15:18 szbalint masak has a neural interface to any issue trackers related to P6, or so it seems... :)
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15:19 masak it's quite convenient. except for the nightmares. *shudder*
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15:27 masak rakudo: sub f { print "OH HAI" }; &f.wrap: { print "-> "; callsame; print " <-" } for ^3; f
15:27 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«-> -> -> OH HAI <- <- <-»
15:27 masak \o/
15:28 colomon wacky
15:28 colomon (in a good way)
15:29 masak rakudo: sub f { "OH HAI" }; &f.wrap: { "-> {callsame} <-" } for ^3; say f # even shorter
15:29 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«-> -> -> OH HAI <- <- <-␤»
15:29 slavik1 callsame is a keyword?
15:29 slavik1 or what is it's meaning?
15:29 masak it's a subroutine.
15:30 slavik1 of what object?
15:30 colomon rakudo: sub f { "OH HAI" }; &f.wrap: { "-> {callsame} ||| {callsame} <-" } for ^3; say f
15:30 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«-> -> -> OH HAI ||| OH HAI <- ||| -> OH HAI ||| OH HAI <- <- ||| -> -> OH HAI ||| OH HAI <- ||| -> OH HAI ||| OH HAI <- <- <-␤»
15:30 slavik1 how does it translate to the string "OH HAI"
15:30 masak slavik1: it's a subroutine, hence not of any object.
15:30 slavik1 ahh
15:30 slavik1 right
15:30 slavik1 a special/global subroutine?
15:30 masak slavik1: "callsame" in the context of wrapping means "call the thing being wrapped".
15:31 masak yes, it's global and a bit special.
15:31 slavik1 gotcha
15:31 masak it talks to the dispatcher.
15:31 slavik1 perl6 is not so simple :(
15:31 slavik1 unless I am trying to understand it more than I understand perl5
15:31 masak you probably are :)
15:32 masak Perl 6 has a simple centre, with paths leading away to more specialized areas, which are consequently more... involved.
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15:39 * moritz_ just commented on RT #78252
15:40 colomon moritz_++
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15:43 Juerd Hm, I would have expected something like inner instead of callsame.
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15:46 masak Juerd: multi dispatch and wrapping are unified in Perl 6, so both use [call|next][with|same].
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15:52 Juerd masak: Ah, that makes it a little clearer: "same" should be read as "same arguments"?
15:52 masak it should indeed.
15:53 Juerd I was reading it as "same subroutine"
15:54 Juerd Which to me, would be the wrapper itself, and thus infinite recursion :)
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15:56 masak reading A12, 'nextsame' used to be spelled 'next METHOD'.
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16:07 masak rakudo: sub rot13 { $^input.trans([$_] => [.rotate(13)]) given "A".."Z" }; say "BU UNV".&rot13
16:07 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
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16:21 * jnthn back from $dayjob
16:21 jnthn masak: (next METHOD) interesting, I guess then it was just for method dispatch, not generalized...
16:21 masak not sure where wrappers fit into that scheme. or if they did.
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16:23 jnthn masak: Don't know they did. Certainly I only became aware that they should share a mechanism recently-ish.
16:23 jnthn masak: I think it was at Go Open in Oslo, I'd been asking about this, and the answer was in TimToady's keynote. :-)
16:23 masak :)
16:24 masak swim &
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16:32 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI!" }; &f.wrap: { " # -> {nextsame} +++ {nextsame} <-- #" } for ^3; f.say;
16:32 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &f␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/ucQ5dWZOLP␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
16:33 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI!" }; &f.wrap: { " :: -> {nextsame} +++ {nextsame} <- ::" } for ^3; f.say;
16:33 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &f␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/_s4jClr2jK␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
16:33 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI!" }; &foo.wrap: { " :: -> {nextsame} +++ {nextsame} <- ::" } for ^3; foo.say; # OH, right! :/
16:33 p6eval rakudo d35769:  ( no output )
16:34 isBEKaml taking upon colomon++/masak++'s work - callsame isn't same as nextsame?
16:34 isBEKaml I thought they were
16:35 jnthn They both pass on the original arguemnt set
16:35 jnthn But callsame returns
16:35 jnthn And nextsame doesn't
16:35 isBEKaml I guess that's why nextsame is used within wrappers in roles...
16:36 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI!" }; &foo.wrap: { " :: -> {callsame} +++ {callsame} <- ::" } for ^3; foo.say;
16:36 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT« :: ->  :: ->  :: -> HAI! +++ HAI! <- :: +++  :: -> HAI! +++ HAI! <- :: <- :: +++  :: ->  :: -> HAI! +++ HAI! <- :: +++  :: -> HAI! +++ HAI! <- :: <- :: <- ::␤»
16:37 isBEKaml nice. jnthn, can you tell me what .wrap does here? It takes any block and constructs something out of it?
16:37 isBEKaml not necessarily a sub, right?
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16:39 jnthn isBEKaml: It replaces the thing that the sub executes when called with what you pass with a dispatcher, which then works through a candidate list made up of the wrappers, in the order they were added, down to the original sub.
16:39 jnthn isBEKaml: callsame is just saying "I want to call the next thing down the list"
16:41 isBEKaml jnthn: ah, ha! So you can go on adding more wrappers and then .wrap would successively peel them away down to the original sub implementation.... /time_to_test_that/ :)
16:42 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" }; &foo.wrap { "Hej" } for ^3 ; foo.say;
16:42 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "&foo.wrap "␤»
16:42 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" }; &foo.wrap: { "Hej" } for ^3 ; foo.say;
16:42 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Hej␤»
16:43 isBEKaml uhh, that's replaced entirely.
16:43 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" }; &foo.wrap: { "Hej"; &foo.wrap: { "Ahoj" }; } for ^3 ; foo.say; #nesting, anyone?
16:43 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«5␤»
16:43 isBEKaml heh
16:44 jnthn isBEKaml: Something like that, yes
16:44 jnthn No, it didn't replace it entirely. You just chose not to defer to the next thing in the list.
16:44 jnthn YOu have to do it explicitly.
16:45 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" }; &foo.wrap: { "Hej";{ &foo.wrap: { "Ahoj" }; }; } for ^3 ; foo.say;
16:45 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«5␤»
16:45 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" }; &foo.wrap: { "Hej"; callsame; { &foo.wrap: { "Ahoj"; callsame; };}; } for ^3 ; foo.say;
16:45 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«7␤»
16:46 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" }; &foo.wrap: { "Hej"; callsame; }; &foo.wrap: { "Ahoj"; callsame; }; foo.say;
16:46 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«HAI␤»
16:47 isBEKaml jnthn: the numbers don't make sense. :(
16:48 skids Should be last statement evaluated, so if you wanted to concat or say you'd have to say so.
16:48 jnthn isBEKaml: It's working as expected - what skids said.
16:48 isBEKaml no, I meant the numbers - 5 and 7 above.
16:48 colomon rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" }; say &foo.wrap: { ">" ~ callsame ~ "<" }; say foo
16:48 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«2␤>HAI␤»
16:48 skids return value of wrap.
16:48 jnthn Oh
16:49 jnthn Yeah, wrap just returns integer wrap handles at the moment
16:49 jnthn There's an RT whining about that.
16:49 colomon rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" }; say &foo.wrap: { ">" ~ callsame() ~ "<" }; say foo
16:49 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«2␤>HAI<␤»
16:49 isBEKaml Oh, I see...
16:49 colomon interesting.
16:50 jnthn Quite what a wrap handle would stringify to though, who knows. :-)
16:51 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" }; say &foo.wrap: { "Hej";{ say &foo.wrap: { "Ahoj" }; }; } for ^3 ; foo.say;
16:51 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«2␤3␤4␤5␤Bool::True␤»
16:51 isBEKaml interesting....
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16:53 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" }; &foo.wrap: { "Hej{" ~ callsame ~ "}";{ &foo.wrap: { "Ahoj::" ~ callsame ~ "::" }; }; } for ^3 ; foo.say;
16:53 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«5␤»
16:54 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" }; &foo.wrap: { "Hej{" ~ callsame ~ "}";{ &foo.wrap: { "Ahoj::" ~ callsame ~ "::" }; }; }; foo.say;
16:54 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«3␤»
16:56 isBEKaml rakudo: sub foo { "HAI" };  sub b { &foo.wrap: { "Hej{" ~ callsame ~ "}"; }; }; &b.wrap: { "Ahoj::" ~ callsame ~ "::" }; b.say;
16:56 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Ahoj::2␤»
16:57 jnthn Guess I should figger out some noms. bbl.
16:58 isBEKaml Guess I should just go figgering the wraps of wraps...
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17:29 jnthn o/ mberends
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17:30 mberends oh hai jnthn! I'm about to commit a slightly less broken 6model/java update
17:30 jnthn Ooh! :-)
17:31 mberends the now-fixed problem was that LexPad was a struct, not a class, and Java has no structs :(
17:32 jnthn ouchyouchouch
17:32 jnthn It's a struct to save an allocation per context.
17:32 mberends the dotnet Context contained a LexPad that was never created, it just "was".
17:32 jnthn But anyway, make it work first. :-)
17:32 jnthn Right.
17:32 jnthn 'cus structs need not be.
17:33 jnthn You may wnat to hand-inline it at some point though.
17:33 jnthn If that isn't the fix you've already done.
17:35 mberends I just jammed in a "new" at the appropriate spot ;)
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17:37 diakopter rakudo: 'faster now?'.say
17:37 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«faster now?␤»
17:38 jnthn mberends: Well, that's the easy fix. :-)
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17:58 PerlJam Anyone got any good names for this month's Rakudo release?
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17:59 colomon woah, is it that time of the month again?
17:59 PerlJam yep
17:59 diakopter aunt flo
17:59 diakopter scnr
18:00 PerlJam There's only one suggestion in the release guide: BristolBath.pm
18:00 dalek 6model: c025d33 | mberends++ | / (8 files):
18:00 dalek 6model: [java:bugfix] make a Lexpad object to resemble the struct Lexpad in dotnet
18:00 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/c025d33d2163c477710e29900c59835197d9a058
18:01 PerlJam oh, I'm suppoed to invite people to update the ROADMAP/ChangeLog/etc.  so ... have at it!  :)
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18:12 mberends PerlJam: the Paris osdc.fr conference last weekend was very Perl6-friendly :)
18:13 mberends er, weekend before last
18:15 jnthn Ooh, yes. That could work as a name.
18:16 PerlJam "Paris"?  or "osdc.fr"?
18:17 PerlJam I guess in keeping with the monger tradition it would have to be "Paris"
18:17 jnthn Aye
18:18 PerlJam so be it.
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18:51 masak ahojte!
18:52 takadonet masak: hey
18:52 mberends ahoy masak!
18:52 masak takadonet, mberends: hejsan :)
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18:57 mberends masak: the first Lego Mindstorms project just reached the walking and talking stage :)
18:57 masak clearly there's some potential in wrapping subs and producing fractals, as evidenced by isBEKaml's experiments in the log :)
18:57 masak mberends: wow, cool!
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18:59 masak mberends: so the gift was appreciated by both father and son, I take it? :)
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18:59 mberends masak: exactly :)
19:00 masak that's the best form of gift, if you ask me. :)
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19:30 moritz_ oh hai
19:30 moritz_ "All in all the release team hopes to have these blockers sorted out by
19:30 moritz_ the end of October, which would allow a release before Christmas."
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19:58 moritz_ further results for RT #78252: bisecting in rakudo was non-conclusive, ie identified the last revision... so it could be a parrot change :(
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20:26 s_mosher hi folks
20:28 s_mosher I noticed higher-arity reduce() is unimplemented
20:28 s_mosher after poking around, it seems like the obvious change works
20:30 s_mosher but it was already in, just commented out, plus there was a test guard against $arity>2... which makes me ask: what did I just break?
20:31 jnthn s_mosher: Did you try make spectest to see if there was any fallout there?
20:31 jnthn Other than that, I'm not sure why it's commented out - I guess there's no explanatory comment?
20:31 s_mosher good idea
20:31 s_mosher no, I hadn't
20:32 s_mosher no, aside from the test guard, it just had  "$res = $expression.(|@args);" commented out, replaced with "...(@args[0],@args[1])"
20:33 s_mosher my best guess is maybe it has something to do with trailing terms causing unexpected behaviour
20:34 s_mosher I'll wait to see if there's any explosions from spectests
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20:43 dalek rakudo: 7c90370 | moritz++ | src/core/Temporal.pm:
20:43 dalek rakudo: [Temporal] stylistic cleanup; no functional changes
20:43 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7c9037011cf4cc6a6692ace1ceb5ded290c59c4b
20:47 s_mosher jnthn, not failing any new tests in reduce
20:49 s_mosher some are failing because of conflicting expectations in the comparison tests, but they dwim the same
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21:13 dalek 6model: 30e4673 | jnthn++ | dotnet/runtime/Runtime/Ops.cs:
21:13 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Add a couple of missing coercion ops to the runtime.
21:13 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/30e46731b9706fbe40ab38354438ba1d3329dbda
21:13 dalek 6model: 1b9b061 | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
21:13 dalek 6model: Turn down constant optimization a notch, to un-regress a test.
21:13 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/1b9b0611842a9b4730bc60c8c78bc9eab478f0c8
21:13 dalek 6model: 579b172 | jnthn++ | dotnet/runtime/Runtime/Ops.cs:
21:13 dalek 6model: [dotnet] euqal_refs op (for giving =:= functionality).
21:13 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/579b172e0e9ab508b05693f6897aeab4f60b16fa
21:13 dalek 6model: cf07e79 | jnthn++ | common/NQP/NQPSetting.pm:
21:13 dalek 6model: [common] Some initial cuts of prefix + and ~, Stringy and Numeric in the NQPSetting.
21:13 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/cf07e79172dd58c6e763f881a287432683b419d2
21:13 dalek 6model: 98e707b | jnthn++ | common/NQP/NQPSetting.pm:
21:13 dalek 6model: [common] =:=
21:13 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/98e707b13799cdf2217f3dd063b87c5362e85e3f
21:14 jnthn s_mosher: OK. It'd be interesting to know why the original thing was commented out. But feel free to send a patch in - that'll hopefully get someone to comment.
21:14 s_mosher sure, I'm going to investigate a bit more here first
21:15 s_mosher I might add a guard test to ensure that arity agrees with the list length
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21:15 s_mosher jnthn, what's the best place to send a patch?
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21:17 jnthn s_mosher: rakudobug@perl.org
21:17 jnthn (it's for patches as well as bugs :-))
21:17 s_mosher kthx
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21:31 dalek rakudo: 6f065b0 | KodiB++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
21:31 dalek rakudo: [Grammar] Permit "time" or the like on the LHS of a fatarrow.
21:31 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6f065b03dea01c84adca797f504bd04f0ddd1560
21:32 bluescreen left #perl6
21:34 dalek roast: 26c1e24 | KodiB++ | S02-literals/pairs.t:
21:34 dalek roast: Added tests for "time" and the like on the LHS of a fatarrrow.
21:34 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/26c1e2479b0ce1fa5ac7d437b761906a31bb8fb0
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21:45 dalek 6model: 7e36dac | jnthn++ | common/NQP/NQPSetting.pm:
21:45 dalek 6model: Give NQPList a .new method.
21:45 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/7e36dac774aa030d4bbcd8345ad5ed9868da97bf
21:45 dalek 6model: 832586c | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
21:45 dalek 6model: Implement PAST::Op with pasttype list.
21:45 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/832586c15867ef540c0ee41189051325731d7bd1
21:47 MOAR-f00li5h is now known as f00li5h
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21:51 dalek 6model: ca4842a | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/Actions.pm:
21:51 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Fix sub vivitype up a little. my @a won't crash and burn during the compile now (though certainly arrays don't really work yet either).
21:51 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/ca4842a890a5d5623a1aac75b529d499f3c98f0e
21:51 dalek 6model: 1e105a5 | jnthn++ | t/nqp/10-cmp.t:
21:51 dalek 6model: We now pass 10-cmp.t.
21:51 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/1e105a51961ad168d15a3fb39b7f0c5c16cc673f
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22:02 dalek 6model: 8325634 | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/DNST2CSharp.pm:
22:02 dalek 6model: Fix up string escaping - or at least, this should be enough for now.
22:02 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/8325634f04ae2d01763a7f680d61bba6b1ab9a29
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22:28 dalek 6model: 2de860c | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
22:28 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Support literals showing up in the PAST tree, as is allowed.
22:28 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/2de860c17c8b6e8308533886f96f0ba5cf7a394e
22:28 dalek 6model: c05a516 | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/Actions.pm:
22:28 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Override quote_delimited from HLL::Actions in JnthnNQP; it relies on :pirop<concat>, which of course won't fly on .Net. (One for pmichaud++ to ponder how to genericise, I guess. :-))
22:28 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/c05a516ce3f968ad746d1236158962d9f557f5ca
22:28 dalek 6model: ea3a9cb | jnthn++ | common/NQP/NQPSetting.pm:
22:28 dalek 6model: [common] Lists and arrays numify to number of elements.
22:28 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/ea3a9cb55b12143a596debf848f380fd7b85de6c
22:30 * sorear wonders how JnthnNQP's PAST will collide with PIRATE's POST when the two are merged
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22:32 jnthn sorear: I've not got any extra PAST nodes, I just compile various bits of NQP to different PAST in a few places. However, in nqp-rx's nom branch a bunch of those differences are already transfered.
22:32 jnthn (Far from all, mind.)
22:32 jnthn Anyway, yes, there'll be some effort to unify things, but I expect it can be done in lots of little steps.
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22:36 jnthn phenny: tell pmichaud I'm very uncomfortable with ++ and -- ops in NQP. They're very assigny, in an otherwise purely bindy language. The hack way to do them without assignment will corrupt my constants table ('cus, I haz one ;-)). Having them in Parrot's nqp-rx will only prevent us from doing that optimization. Vote to deprecate.
22:36 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
22:39 dalek 6model: cfdd2fc | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/Actions.pm:
22:39 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Another de-Parrotification in JnthnNQP. Now interpolation of embedded closures works.
22:39 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/cfdd2fc9dc773d2ef848913b505dddcb70e0c203
22:39 dalek 6model: 70dfa83 | jnthn++ | t/nqp/38-quotes.t:
22:39 dalek 6model: We now pass 38-quotes.t.
22:39 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/70dfa834ddcd086526728a1b1e8a1c5a92a46677
22:44 sorear you don't want to interpret $x++ as $x := $x + 1 ?
22:45 jnthn Well, works for pre-increment, but not post-increment.
22:45 jnthn I guess you could find a way to make it work...
22:46 jnthn But it feels kinda...odd.
22:46 jnthn It's a better option than what happens now, though, if we want to keep it.
22:47 sorear I take it NQP currently implements FORTRAN-66 style constants? :)
22:48 jnthn NQP on Parrot doesn't have constants. :/
22:48 jnthn NQP on .Net actually does build a constant table for all the PAST::Val nodes.
22:48 jnthn Because, well, it's just not that hard to do, so I did it. :-)
22:49 ggoebel joined #perl6
22:50 jnthn I wouold say I'm not old enough to remember FORTRAN-66, but you're younger than me, so it's no excuse. :P
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23:22 dalek 6model: abac6f9 | jnthn++ | t/nqp/53-knowhow.t:
23:22 dalek 6model: We pass 53-knowhow.t for ages, but forgot to add it here. :-)
23:22 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/abac6f90cb425f15070e987702a2fbd97864a761
23:22 dalek 6model: 7054cd8 | jnthn++ | dotnet/runtime/Init.cs:
23:22 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Enable the hack say/print to take many args.
23:22 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/7054cd873745b43512fd2909cfd77b02d128ce44
23:22 dalek 6model: cbdd49b | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
23:22 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Out with one bad hack, in with a slightly less bad one for undefined scalars.
23:22 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/cbdd49b4a8bcff11c0bda12049346d6375d2c18c
23:22 dalek 6model: eaa51af | jnthn++ | t/nqp/23-named-args.t:
23:22 dalek 6model: We now pass 23-named-args.t.
23:22 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/eaa51af96c2ed6827881221eb13efec4677def96
23:22 dalek 6model: 0d31eba | jnthn++ | t/nqp/06-args-pos.t:
23:22 dalek 6model: Also passing 06-args-pos.t already.
23:22 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/0d31ebae31f13deb9b72ac43c6763a151150c75d
23:22 cdarroch left #perl6
23:24 jnthn A few more baby steps towards NQP on .Net. :-) It's nice to have the energy to be writing code again. :-)
23:27 * jnthn -> sleep, gotta make $dayjob at something resembling morning tomorrow :-)
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