Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-10-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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04:33 mfollett Is the official return type of a subroutine part of what the dispatcher uses to determine which subroutine to dispatch?
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04:40 davidfetter hello
04:40 davidfetter i'm looking for places where people are using perl6 in production. any pointers?
04:46 mfollett n/m, I found my answer, it doesn't seem to work for arrays for some reason.
04:47 mfollett oh, no, it doesn't seem to be doing it at all.
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05:07 eternaleye mfollett: Is it declared multi? as in 'multi sub foo( Int @foo )'
05:07 eternaleye Oh wait, misread
05:08 eternaleye It's not possible to be multi on *return* types, see past discussion on want() and wantarray() for reasoning
05:08 mfollett eternaleye: It wasn't, but yeah, as you point out I can't anyway.
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05:32 davidfetter anybody?
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06:58 rindolf Hi all.
06:59 Tene hi!
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07:00 rindolf Tene: what's up?
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07:05 diakopter davidfetter: as usual it depends on what you mean by "in production"
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07:36 jnthn morning, #perl6
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07:59 Ghost9998_ ok
07:59 Ghost9998_ hi guys
08:00 Ghost9998_ perl6
08:00 Ghost9998_ rakudo
08:00 Ghost9998_ wtf commands dont work
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08:04 meway Hey if anyone is interested in video game development pm me I need some developers sorry for brodcasting this in this channel
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08:32 moritz_ good morning
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08:43 jnthn o/ moritz_
08:44 moritz_ \o/ we have a submission to the challenge
08:44 moritz_ the wording isn't optimal in places, but the logic seems to be fine
08:46 jnthn Nice!
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09:15 masak oh hai #perl6!
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09:17 moritz_ oh hai masak
09:17 moritz_ patch pushed to hypererr branch
09:18 moritz_ I want to do another test run on a different machine
09:19 masak it's so confusing that 'patch' is a nick...
09:20 moritz_ man context :-)
09:22 masak No manual entry for context
09:22 masak :(
09:22 moritz_ there's a debian package with such manual entries
09:22 masak not surprised.
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09:23 masak "(1,2,3,{cat => 1, dog => 2}) >>+<< (3,4,5,{cat => [6,7], dog => 8}) \n Structures are of uneven length and not dwimmy at element [3, cat]. Length 1 vs. 2." -- if that patch goes in, I might have a crack at making the path location look more like .[3]<cat>
09:25 moritz_ actually I thought about that too
09:26 moritz_ just remember that <foo bar> is not the same as .{'foo bar'}
09:26 moritz_ so you need proper escaping
09:27 moritz_ masak: patch is in the hypererr branch - feel free to improve it :-)
09:27 masak aye aye sir.
09:27 * masak goes to it
09:28 masak hm, didn't think about the escaping issue. tricky.
09:29 moritz_ you can just use .perl output
09:34 masak hm. .substr'd on both sides.
09:35 moritz_ why?
09:36 masak oh, you mean for the .{'foo bar'} case specifically? right, then I can just use the string.
09:36 masak but actually, I need to escape in the .<cat> case as well.
09:37 moritz_ .<cat\ dog> ?
09:37 masak or .<cat\>dog>
09:38 * moritz_ would prefer .{ $str.perl }
09:39 * moritz_ gives it a shot
09:39 masak ++moritz_
09:44 * moritz_ would be much more productive if it didn't take 12 or 15 minutes to recompile the setting
09:44 masak compiling the setting is such a bottleneck.
09:45 jnthn It takes...12 or 15 minutes now?!
09:45 * jnthn last had it at 3 or 4...
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09:59 moritz_ setting compilation has now been running for 15 mins 45 sec
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10:16 moritz_ 33min, and counting :(
10:21 nymacro you need a better 486
10:22 moritz_ no, I need a better parrot
10:23 moritz_ and now it complains that it can't read the old packfile format
10:28 moritz_ nymacro: how long does it take on your machine, with latest parrot?
10:30 nymacro I'll give it a check
10:30 nymacro haven't actually timed it before
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10:36 nymacro moritz_, timing perl configure w/ --gen-parrot
10:36 nymacro real3m41.757s
10:38 nymacro I assume you're not doing anything extra?
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10:39 IllvilJa o/
10:41 nymacro lo
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11:26 moritz_ nymacro: I'm talking about the 'make' step, not the configure stop
11:27 nymacro moritz_, this included the make :)
11:27 moritz_ oh
11:28 nymacro under 4 mins for parrot,  under 6 for rakudo
11:28 moritz_ and that's with the newest parrot, and newest rakudo?
11:28 * moritz_ can't believe it
11:28 baest and not using deep blue?
11:30 baest s/deep blue/blue gene/, but anyhow a super computer
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11:33 moritz_ masak: please take another look at the hypererr branch
11:33 nymacro moritz_, was I supposed to be building from non-master branch?
11:34 moritz_ nymacro: no; the branch doesn't really matter
11:34 moritz_ nymacro: it didn't used to be so slow for me, and I suspect it was a change to the parrot GC
11:34 nymacro even so, 33min+ seems a little steep
11:35 moritz_ yes
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11:35 moritz_ PerlJam: just a small reminder that you're the release manager this month
11:37 masak moritz_: I'm kind of on the move; will look when I have the time.
11:38 moritz_ masak: no hurry
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11:40 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | Rakudo Star Released!
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13:11 colomon profiling runcore works again!  (according to parrot release notes)
13:11 jnthn Ooh, nice
13:13 colomon sounds like they made a number of improvements based on things from this channel in the last two weeks.  parrot team++
13:17 davidfetter diakopter, by "production," i mean software actually deployed to the public. a working web site powered by perl6, e.g.
13:17 moritz_ davidfetter: then http://strangelyconsistent.org/ is an example of Perl 6 use in production
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13:20 davidfetter moritz_, so perl6 is serving that page somehow, or...?
13:21 * davidfetter sees some very cool docs, etc., but isn't quite seeing the where the perl6 is acting rather than being described
13:21 moritz_ davidfetter: it generates the HTML pages that are served from this page
13:21 davidfetter k
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13:23 davidfetter that's pretty great. what else is out there? :)
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13:34 davidfetter one context of my questions is that i'm pitching pl/parrot, a parrot embedding in postgresql. pl/perl6 is a supported language
13:34 davidfetter well, pl/rakudo
13:34 davidfetter if there are DSLs or other kinds of super-moby perl6 magic people are using out in the real world, that could help me write up examples, pitch to different segments of interest, etc.
13:39 dalek rakudo: 3905e0e | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
13:39 dalek rakudo: bump PARROT_REVISION to the 2.9.0 release
13:39 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​905e0ecc0a457efc6928ea754d502483a757d31
13:39 dalek rakudo: 6f30584 | moritz++ | src/core/metaops.pm:
13:39 dalek rakudo: Improve error message for non-dwimmy hyper ops
13:39 dalek rakudo:
13:39 dalek rakudo: Patch courtesy by Timothy Bollman
13:39 dalek rakudo: With some wording improvements by moritz.
13:39 dalek rakudo:
13:39 dalek rakudo: This recursively tracks the indexing path in hyperops, and prints that path
13:39 dalek rakudo: on error. Also elaborates on the nature of the different shapes, either
13:39 dalek rakudo: different length or types (Hash vs Scalar/List or so)
13:39 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​f3058476cb2cfd6a700e8f34702ca081f937e30
13:39 dalek rakudo: f17e400 | moritz++ | src/core/metaops.pm:
13:39 dalek rakudo: [hyper] emit proper indexing path with .[] and .{} on error
13:39 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​17e4007b6b5d722e4ffc2c3fd22f3ca9a5a459e
13:42 dalek roast: 0fed615 | moritz++ | S11-modules/require.t:
13:42 dalek roast: [require.t] fudge a test that never passed
13:42 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0f​ed6158e483c88dd93ec92256548ce97116f802
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13:54 moritz_ std: (]
13:54 p6eval std :  ( no output )
13:54 moritz_ oh
13:54 jnthn mmm...if you tilt your head it looks like a muffin.
13:55 jnthn Clearly std nommed it :-)
13:55 colomon moritz_++
13:55 moritz_ turns out I forgot to clone std on the new p6eval server
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14:13 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
14:13 phenny pmichaud: 18 Oct 22:36Z <jnthn> tell pmichaud I'm very uncomfortable with ++ and -- ops in NQP. They're very assigny, in an otherwise purely bindy language. The hack way to do them without assignment will corrupt my constants table ('cus, I haz one ;-)). Having them in Parrot's nqp-rx will only prevent us from doing that optimization. Vote to deprecate.
14:13 jnthn morning, pmichaud
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14:14 pmichaud jnthn: I strongly resisted placing ++ and -- into NQP but was loudly outvoted/criticized for it.
14:16 pmichaud how about if we make them "macros"?
14:16 pmichaud i.e.,   $a++  is translated by the compiler to be $a := $a + 1
14:16 pmichaud (in the PAST)
14:19 jnthn pmichaud: Well, then it's ++$a ratehr than $a++
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14:20 pmichaud then whatever sequence gives us the correct semantics (e.g., a temporary result before the increment)
14:21 jnthn Yeah, guess that's easier but still...how hard is it for folks to write $x := $x + 1;
14:21 pmichaud I'm just saying that "lack of increment" got very loud complaints from nqp users
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14:26 jnthn pmichaud: OK, at least you tried to keep things sane. :-)
14:27 pmichaud the other possibility would be to create an 'inc' opcode that does what we want :-)
14:27 jnthn Well, but since we want to bind...
14:27 jnthn We need to know the name of the thing.
14:28 pmichaud oh, true
14:28 pmichaud silly ++ operator.
14:28 jnthn My feelings exactly. ;)
14:28 jnthn It's a fine operator - when you have assignment. :-)_
14:28 pmichaud in this case, I'm guessing that perhaps inc/dec really want their own pasttype, then.  they're very common to languages
14:29 jnthn I fear that's missing the point (more)
14:29 jnthn Having them in a language properly means it needs to have some model of assignment, so far as I can see.
14:29 PerlJam Good morning!
14:29 PerlJam jnthn: so ... you're adding assignment to NQP  :-)
14:30 PerlJam ?
14:30 pmichaud I'm not entirely certain that's the case.
14:30 jnthn PerlJam: uh, no :P
14:30 jnthn pmichaud: Consider my $a := 2; my $b := $a; $a++; say($b);
14:30 jnthn If we re-write it to $a := $a + 1; then $b is no longer bound the result
14:30 jnthn I guess it works
14:31 jnthn It's just...not that you'd expect in real Perl 6, which does have assignment.
14:31 pmichaud right, I don't necessarily see a huge problem with that.
14:31 jnthn Which means we get a semantic mis-match.
14:31 jnthn It may not be a big deal.
14:31 pmichaud there are a few places where semantic mismatches will occur no matter what we do.
14:31 pmichaud (short of making NQP into full Perl 6, or giving it full-on assignment)
14:32 jnthn True.
14:32 jnthn I'm not opposed to re-writing it to $foo := $foo + 1
14:32 jnthn I don't think the current implementation can stand though.
14:32 pmichaud I'm not entirely opposed to eliminating ++ for now and see what we end up with.
14:33 pmichaud there are only 5 occurrences in Rakudo, afaict
14:34 pmichaud there's one instance in NQP itself
14:35 pmichaud go ahead and deprecate/eliminate it for now, and we'll see about adding it back in when we decide we really need it
14:37 jnthn OK, thanks.
14:43 colomon my rakudo build seems to be taking a very long time this morning?
14:44 moritz_ colomon: mine too
14:44 moritz_ colomon: 33min or so
14:44 * moritz_ is glad he's not the only one
14:44 colomon I haven't been paying enough attention to know how long, just that I would have expected it to be done by now.
14:45 PerlJam Hmm.  I didn't notice my build taking too long, but the spectests seem to be taking longer than I thought they would.
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14:49 * pmichaud tries a build
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15:11 jnthn Decommute
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15:13 pmichaud yes, the build is taking a horrendously long time
15:14 pmichaud probably time to bisect
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15:24 colomon pmichaud: seems like it was a very recent change -- at least, I certainly didn't notice my build from a day or two ago being particularly slow.
15:25 pmichaud colomon: yes, I'm running some tests now
15:25 colomon pmichaud++
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15:26 * moritz_ can confirm that
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15:30 TimTom rakudo: my %a = (a => 1, b => 2, c => 3); say (%a >>=><< (1, 2, 3)).perl
15:30 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Sorry, right side is too short and not dwimmy.␤  in 'hyper' at line 251:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
15:31 TimTom rakudo: my %a = (a => 1, b => 2, c => 3); say (%a >>=>>> (1, 2, 3)).perl
15:31 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«{"a" => 1 => ((1, 2, 3)), "b" => 2 => ((1, 2, 3)), "c" => 3 => ((1, 2, 3))}␤»
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15:31 TimTom It may just be me, but that seems like it's not what we want to reporting.
15:31 colomon TimToady: latest build says this:
15:31 TimTom err returning
15:31 colomon Sorry, structures on both sides of non-dwimmy hyperop are not of same shape:
15:31 colomon left:  Hash
15:31 colomon right: Parcel
15:31 colomon TimTom, sorry.
15:32 TimTom yea, I understood
15:32 colomon that's for the first one, latest build.
15:33 moritz_ colomon: fwiw, TimTom++ submitted the original patch
15:33 moritz_ which reminds me, I forgot to reply to the mail on p6c
15:33 TimTom Well, my patch didn't have the Hash, parcel thing
15:33 colomon ah, TimTom++ indeed!
15:33 moritz_ TimTom: right, I added that
15:34 TimTom I saw it, but wasn't sure what we wanted to do with it, so I mulled it over the night
15:34 moritz_ TimTom: your patch kept the "shorter" thing, which can be very confusing for   {a => 1} >>+<< [1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6]
15:34 moritz_ it would complain that the right side is too short, even though it looks much longer than the right
15:34 TimTom Well, it just kept whatever was a hash
15:34 moritz_ ss/than the right/than the left/
15:35 TimTom err Associative
15:36 TimTom The only thing I can think of for % >>x>> @ is that they would want to match each hash key randomly with some array elment (based on the hash key iteration)
15:37 moritz_ well, random behaviour is bad
15:37 colomon you could do .kv on the @ and make a hash, I suppose...
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15:38 TimTom It's not completly random.  The thought is that it would be used to have the hash elements transformed into a index, value pair.  For something like %h >> (1 .. *)
15:38 TimTom I like colomon's better though
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15:39 moritz_ let me rephrase: when mechanisms become too magical, they get hard to understand, and produce weird results in corner cases
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15:39 moritz_ so I'd rather have less magic, and better error messages :-)
15:39 TimTom Oh, I wasn't disagreeing, I was just stating that there's really no good way to make it do anything that someone would want
15:40 pmichaud for comparison, time needed to build rakudo 2010.09 on my box ("perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot; time make"):   3m44s
15:40 TimTom that I could see at least
15:40 moritz_ then I misunderstood, and we're all in violent agreement :-)
15:40 TimTom Quite :)
15:40 pmichaud time needed for rakudo head with parrot 2.9.0:  7 minutes and counting
15:41 pmichaud I'll cancel it at 10 minutes and bisect to an earlier parrot
15:41 * PerlJam blames parrot but secretly hopes he's wrong.
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15:42 pmichaud yeah, if it's parrot.... we're going to be in for a not-so-fun couple of days :(
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15:43 TimTom It just promotes a... different... build style.  You do half the work, compile.  Then work on the other half while it compiles.  You can then check if your first half was a good change or not.
15:43 pmichaud 10m30s
15:44 pmichaud cancelling build -- trying with r49387  (sep 30)
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15:49 davidfetter perl6: say "Hello to my little frien'!"
15:49 p6eval pugs, rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Hello to my little frien'!␤»
15:52 pmichaud rakudo head on parrot r49387:  4m16s
15:52 pmichaud trying r49541
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15:58 TimTom moritz: the patch you submitted for hyperops has a copy-paste mistake at line 66 of metaops.pm, it should be @rhs not @lhs.  Also, I think lines 144 and 158 should maybe be $rhs.WHAT.perl() as well in case the Associative isn't a hash
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16:00 TimTom moritz: and the recursive hyperop integrate that I did for Associative omitted [ ] around the Iterable call that was in the Iterable hyperop (line 124).  I'm not sure if those were neccessary, but I assume they were
16:01 TimTom moritz: ... or maybe those were actually because we were using "push", and they aren't neccessary
16:01 pmichaud 49541:  4m22s
16:01 pmichaud so it's something very recent.
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16:03 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/634456  # current table of build times on my machine
16:03 moritz_ TimTom: looking...
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16:06 PerlJam pmichaud: check out -r49557
16:07 PerlJam that at 49556 mess with GC and the other revisions seem to be mostly doc patches and such.
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16:07 pmichaud PerlJam: should I cancel my current build to try 49557?
16:08 PerlJam I'm just guessing based on the log messages.  I haven't run it yet.
16:08 pmichaud I'd like to get a complete timing of the build on 2.9.0 to be able to report that
16:08 pmichaud I can probably try 49557 on another machine just to see
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16:13 * jnthn home
16:14 * davidfetter work
16:16 jnthn pmichaud: (build speed) Ouch.
16:16 jnthn pmichaud: Want me to run a build of anything here at all?
16:16 pmichaud only if you want to see a painfully slow build :-)
16:16 jnthn :P
16:17 pmichaud I suppose it would be interesting to see if it's slow on mswin, though.
16:18 jnthn *nod*
16:19 jnthn I'll try 49556 and 49557.
16:19 mberends joined #perl6
16:20 jnthn yayitsmberends!
16:20 risou joined #perl6
16:20 * davidfetter very sorry to be trolling like this, but is looking around desperately for any perl6 production deployment anywhere. failing that, something that's gotten to staging, and failing that, to development
16:20 davidfetter this isn't perl6 itself, but software written in it
16:21 jnthn http://november-wiki.org/ used to be up... :-(
16:22 jnthn http://pivo.jnthn.net/ uses a few bits of Perl 6 and there's source at http://github.com/jnthn/pivo
16:22 pmichaud I'm trying 49556 right now on a different box
16:22 jnthn It's tiny but demonstrates working usage of MiniDBI, JSON::Tiny plus uses Blizkost to get at a Perl 5 module.
16:22 jnthn pmichaud: Aye, that's building here at the moment.
16:23 pmichaud I'll try it on my "timing box" when my timing box gets done building against trunk  (20 minutes so far)
16:23 jnthn *sigh*
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16:23 Kodi rakudo: class C { has $.x }; sub f($x) { C.new: :$x }; say (f (1, 2)).perl;
16:23 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«C.new(x => ((1, 2)))␤»
16:23 pmichaud http://lists.parrot.org/pipermail/p​arrot-dev/2010-October/004929.html  # message to parrot-dev
16:24 jnthn Yes, that just landed here.
16:24 Ross joined #perl6
16:25 Kodi ^ Known? This seems to be the root cause of the failure in trans.t, although it predates the Rakudo change that caused the failure.
16:26 pmichaud Kodi: we know that a change to rakudo resulting in a trans.t failure, yes.
16:26 pmichaud we haven't quite figured out why yet.
16:26 pmichaud (but we know that the change is correct)
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16:28 pmichaud r49556 builds in a reasonable amount of time.
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16:29 pmichaud now passing 25 minutes
16:29 pmichaud (still working on core.pir)
16:29 pmichaud ah, core.pir just finished
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16:31 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/634507    # 26m41s  with 2.9.0 release
16:31 risou left #perl6
16:34 jnthn pmichaud: 6:48 on 49556
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16:34 pmichaud yes, I had 7m  on my slow box
16:34 pmichaud I'm trying it now on my timing box
16:34 jnthn OK. Trying 49557 now.
16:35 pmichaud it's looking very much like 49557 is the culprit on my second box
16:36 pmichaud s/second/slow/
16:38 pmichaud 49556   is 4m20s  on my timing box
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16:49 moritz_ phenny: tell masak I'm sure you've seen it before -- if not, look at http://ds9a.nl/amazing-dna/
16:49 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
16:51 jnthn pmichaud: Confirm big difference here between 49556 and 49557.
16:52 jnthn (The latter hasn't finished yet, but it's almost reached double now)
16:52 PerlJam It runs the GC potentially 16 times as often
16:54 pmichaud PerlJam: more than 16, I'd think
16:54 PerlJam yes, you're probably right
16:54 jnthn That or we're being really, really dominated by GC.
16:55 pmichaud jnthn: based on the other tests I've done, I suspect we are being dominated by gc (e.g., some of the strings tests)
16:56 pmichaud jnthn: my results are mirroring yours -- I'm at 15 minutes now in r49557, where r49556 took 4m20s previously
16:56 jnthn Yup, over 16 here.
16:56 PerlJam I wonder if that gc_threshhold is really implemented correctly.  If whatever counter is being used to set the allocations so far isn't reset when it hits 16M, then you'll get a GC run for every allocation above 16M
16:57 pmichaud chromatic weighed in on parrot-dev that he thinks it's r49557 also
16:57 pmichaud moritz_: that dna url is fascinating
16:57 moritz_ indeed :-)
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17:02 jnthn .oO( Maybe it's dominating 'cus it's actually a Sweep and Mark collector ;-) )
17:03 jnthn 23 minutes...still on core.pm.
17:05 PerlJam How many objects are typically allocated during a rakudo compile?
17:06 flatwhatson joined #perl6
17:06 jnthn Finally done - 26:04
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17:11 pyrimidine moritz_: good link (DNA URL)
17:12 pmichaud PerlJam: millions... maybe more
17:12 pmichaud every subroutine or method call creates at least one object
17:15 jnthn Context + LexPad + exception handler + RPA that holds it # 4 already...
17:17 jnthn #phasers in 102 mins?
17:18 moritz_ yes
17:18 jnthn k
17:18 dalek rakudo: fbe7445 | moritz++ | src/core/metaops.pm:
17:18 dalek rakudo: fix a typo noticed by TimTom++
17:18 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​be7445f4fea2bad64ed389a7ca525e4d7a732f9
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17:22 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/634604    # build timings
17:22 pmichaud afk, lunch
17:23 jnthn :/
17:23 jnthn Even if we get back to 49556's performance, it's still a regression from 2010.09.
17:23 * jnthn -> noms, bbfp
17:24 pmichaud (regression)  yes, but it's hard to claim that's a Parrot issue.  Rakudo did add some features in that time that could account for the increased time.
17:25 pmichaud (now afk)
17:25 diakopter http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1829
17:25 pmichaud we could potentially try building 2010.09 on 2.8.0 and see how long that takes.
17:26 pmichaud er, 2010.09 on a more recent parrot
17:26 * pmichaud tries 2010.09 on r49556, just to see wha thappens.
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17:40 davidfetter jnthn, um, please tell me this is generated code. http://github.com/jnthn/pivo/b​lob/master/jquery-1.4.2.min.js
17:40 moritz_ davidfetter: it is. The .min is "minimized" javascript
17:40 PerlJam davidfetter: it is.  That's your standard minimized jquery
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17:42 davidfetter ah
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18:08 Util Pushed fix for long build time
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18:12 dalek rakudo: d497078 | Util++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
18:12 dalek rakudo: Bump PARROT_REVISION to resolve abnormally long R build
18:12 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d​49707813ef75af2c3b21f92671f72d581df7746
18:14 colomon Util++
18:14 moritz_ Util: note that the rakudo releases always target parrot releases; so we need to do something about that
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18:15 Util moritz_: I expect that a release manager will make a 2.9.1 release as soon as everyone agrees that the problem is fixed.
18:25 * jnthn back
18:26 jnthn davidfetter: Yes, minimized. ;-)
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18:32 pmichaud Rakudo    Parrot         Time needed for rakudo's "make"
18:32 pmichaud 2010.09   49192 2.8.0    03m44s
18:32 pmichaud 2010.09   49556          04m14s
18:32 davidfetter jnthn, know of other perl6 deployments?
18:33 pmichaud So yes, Parrot exhibits a 13% slowdown between 2.8.0 and 2.9.0 .
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18:38 isperl6doneyet hi, my name is my question
18:38 PerlJam isperl6doneyet: it's a bogus question.
18:38 isperl6doneyet how so?
18:38 PerlJam isperl6doneyet: Is Perl 5 done yet?  If so, why are they still working on it?
18:38 isperl6doneyet true, i should be more specific about "done"
18:38 isperl6doneyet i'll work on that.. thanks
18:39 isperl6doneyet left #perl6
18:39 * PerlJam hopes he comes back
18:39 BinGOs bellowing noiseholes making sounds that could be words.
18:44 jnthn pmichaud: Unlucky...
18:44 jnthn davidfetter: No...maybe we should start a wiki page somewhere for collecting them.
18:45 PerlJam jnthn++
18:45 sorear good * #perl6
18:46 jnthn '*, sorear
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19:02 pmichaud -1 to #phasers
19:02 pmichaud er, T-1 to #phasers
19:02 pmichaud (not voting it down :-)
19:02 jnthn :P
19:03 pmichaud davidfetter: masak++'s blog is written using Perl 6   (http://strangelyconsistent.org/)
19:04 pmichaud (didn't know if that had been mentioned yet)
19:04 timbunce left #perl6
19:04 sorear it's the only thing that's been mentioned yet
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19:40 davidfetter pmichaud, what sorear said.
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19:55 sorear tylercurtis!
19:55 sorear hi!
19:55 tylercurtis Hi, sorear.
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19:56 ylando hello
19:57 mberends hi ylando
19:58 ylando it is a chat room about developing perl6?
19:58 moritz_ yes
19:59 ylando do you have an help chat room
19:59 ylando so i will not waste your time
19:59 moritz_ we also answer Perl 6 questions here
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20:00 ylando perl6 can run on server ?
20:00 ylando do cgi ?
20:00 moritz_ yes
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20:00 ylando do you have doc about it?
20:01 mfollett left #perl6
20:01 moritz_ well, the common gateway interface is language agnostic
20:01 ylando but you have an appche guide
20:02 moritz_ and the "November" wiki has a module for it - should be somewhere in http://github.com/viklund/november/
20:02 ylando thanks
20:03 ylando i will check it out
20:03 ylando bye
20:03 ylando left #perl6
20:03 sorear tylercurtis: how goes bennu?
20:05 BinGOs wouldn't traditional cgi be hideously slow
20:05 moritz_ it is
20:05 flussence yes, but everyone uses fcgi these days
20:06 flussence or if not that, something like it
20:06 x3nU cgi can be fust if used smartly
20:06 davidfetter so the common gateway interface is...uncommon?
20:06 x3nU i mean, dont generate whole page every visit
20:06 tylercurtis sorear: not much progress (though a little) due to lack of tuits. How goes Niecza?
20:06 x3nU but generate static html files
20:06 x3nU and use cgi only for commiting changes
20:06 moritz_ then it's not CGI, is it?
20:06 x3nU like posting comment
20:06 x3nU etc
20:07 davidfetter .oO(UGI)
20:07 flussence I used to have a trick for that actually...
20:07 flussence in apache-speak, "DirectoryIndex index.html index.cgi", then have the second save its output to the first when accessed
20:08 flussence of course, it only works for urls ending in / ...
20:08 davidfetter how would you decide when to expire the .html?
20:08 sorear tylercurtis: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/p​hasers/2010-10-19#i_2925857
20:09 flussence davidfetter: that's a caching issue. caching is hard ;)
20:09 davidfetter let's go shopping!
20:10 davidfetter </barbie>
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20:15 tylercurtis sorear: impressive.
20:17 davidfetter niecza?
20:18 sorear niecza: say "Hello, world"
20:18 p6eval niecza 4f60774: OUTPUT«sh: /opt/perl-5.12.1/bin/perl: not found␤»
20:18 molaf joined #perl6
20:19 moritz_ oops
20:19 sorear it's a lot faster now
20:19 moritz_ lol
20:20 sorear anyways davidfetter it's an implementation of Perl 6 I've been playing with
20:20 p6eval left #perl6
20:20 sorear probably the most awkward to set up atm
20:20 p6eval joined #perl6
20:20 moritz_ niezca: say 3
20:20 davidfetter niecza: say "'Hello' to my little frien'!"
20:20 p6eval niecza 4f60774: OUTPUT«'Hello' to my little frien'!␤»
20:21 davidfetter al pacino as niecza
20:22 dalek evalbot: 6a11357 | moritz++ | evalbot.pl:
20:22 dalek evalbot: fix niecza target
20:22 dalek evalbot: review: http://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/6​a1135793427a0cffbeb673fec1643dd68560472
20:23 sorear davidfetter: I'm trying to get STD to run a bit faster
20:23 * davidfetter a little scared
20:23 davidfetter what does STD stand for?
20:23 sorear STanDard
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20:35 colomon with latest rakudo, it appears $file.close isn't called automagically after writing a file.
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20:38 colomon http://gist.github.com/635055
20:39 colomon above gist is my first attempt at golfing the issue.
20:39 colomon I suspect something to do with GC?
20:39 pmichaud I suspect it's something to do with the filehandle not being closed
20:39 pmichaud or flushed
20:40 colomon pmichaud: right, but that's supposed to happen automatically, no?
20:40 jnthn You can't rely ont he file handle being closed at block exit in Perl 6, afaik.
20:40 colomon (it certainly did happen automatically last time I tried the code in question, but that was a bit back.)
20:40 colomon nor at program exit?
20:40 jnthn Equally, not flushing it when it gets collected feels...odd.
20:41 pmichaud rakudo's program exit is.... odd
20:41 jnthn colomon: I'd have kinda hoped it'd make it before program exit.
20:41 pmichaud we made some workarounds in order to avoid the odd exit code to the test harness, iirc.
20:41 moritz_ over in #parrotsketch chromatic argues that extrem slowness isn't "broken"
20:41 pmichaud i.e., Rakudo's program exit isn't a default exit
20:41 moritz_ pmichaud: you mean the explicit call to exit 0?
20:42 colomon ah, for what it's worth, I get the same behavior in d357695b83624648d594bf78518a5c907da965d9, which is from Sunday.
20:42 pmichaud moritz_: right
20:42 moritz_ pmichaud: that's to bypass global destruction
20:42 colomon so I jumped to conclusions thinking it was another bug from the latest parrot.
20:43 pmichaud and global destruction is where I would expect PMCs to be flushed/closed :)
20:43 jnthn moritz_: *sigh*
20:43 moritz_ some weeks ago I tried to remove it
20:43 moritz_ and got some endless loops during spectests
20:46 dalek 6model: d89333d | mberends++ | java/compiler/compile.pir:
20:46 dalek 6model: [java/compiler] add compile.pir which was being .gitignored
20:46 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/d​89333dc48b64220e9dfdb465790c8cc035eb426
20:46 pythonian4000afk is now known as pythonian4000
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20:48 colomon RT #78454
20:55 pmichaud 20:41 <moritz_> over in #parrotsketch chromatic argues that extrem slowness isn't "broken"
20:55 pmichaud I'm not planning to take a strong position for/against the extreme slowness, fwiw.  Except to say that if Rakudo compiles are going to take 25+ minutes, I'm likely to do a lot less work on it.
20:56 szbalint Yes it is. That's why nuclear power plants are running timing tests even after formal proofs verifying a system :)
20:56 * moritz_ would recommend to ship the R* release with the old rakudo+parrot, unless there's a fix to that
20:56 pmichaud oh, that's a possibility as well.
20:57 pmichaud anyway, I'm willing to see where Parrot decides they want to put their priorities and react to that, rather than try to push for any particular outcome.
20:57 PerlJam moritz_: if R* ships with an older rakudo, what then is new in R*?
20:58 pmichaud might be nothing... and that could be okay.
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20:59 PerlJam a "book changes only" release of R* seems weird (that's all I can think of that's changed)
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21:02 pmichaud PerlJam: that's one of the possiblities of monthly releases, though.  There could be some months w/o significant changes.
21:02 PerlJam sure.  It just seems weird.
21:03 Ross left #perl6
21:03 PerlJam looks like #ps is collectively sane today.  :)
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21:04 pmichaud I am planning to go ahead and run spectests on 2.9.0.... just to see what it ends up looking like :)
21:06 sorear tylercurtis: Anyways, I've been experimenting with some backend portability stuff for Niecza
21:07 sorear I have CLR dependencies pushed all to the back end, except for a few yaks left in RxOp
21:09 skids left #perl6
21:12 tylercurtis sorear: interesting. Are you planning on working on a non-CLR backend anytime soon?
21:12 Ross left #perl6
21:14 sorear FSVO soon, yes
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21:16 tylercurtis What targets are you interested in?
21:19 sorear CLR-sans-C#, simple bytecode, custom VM, Parrot
21:20 sorear I am doubtful of how much short-term benefit I'll be able to get with a custom VM, though
21:21 sorear I'd be giving up Mono's generational garbage collector
21:21 sorear also, I would probably still have to simulate a stack for CALLER:: to work
21:21 sorear (custom VM = LLVM based)
21:22 jnthn nqp: my @l := (1,2,3,4,5); @l[2] := 42; say(@l);
21:22 ggoebel left #perl6
21:22 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«sh: ./nqp: not found␤»
21:22 jnthn my @l := (1,2,3,4,5); @l[2] := 42; say(@l[2]); # 42
21:23 jnthn pmichaud: ^^ This probably would not work in Perl 6 since a parcel is read-only, but does work in NQP since we use RPA. Do you see things staying this way?
21:23 jnthn e.g. (1,2,3,4,5) actually makes something mutable?
21:23 pmichaud jnthn: I'm not sure that the resulting bind becomes a Parcel -- it might end up being a Seq
21:24 jnthn Ah, OK
21:24 jnthn And Seq is...mutable?
21:24 moritz_ nqp: say(1)
21:24 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:24 pmichaud well, at present all lists (including Seq)  allow push/pop
21:24 pmichaud so they're mutable in that sense
21:24 pmichaud I don't see a problem with saying that elements of a Seq can be rebound
21:24 jnthn And @foo[52] := blah style things?
21:25 jnthn OK
21:25 pmichaud but that might not work out.  There are still a lot of gray areas and corner cases to be addressed.
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21:25 pmichaud ultimately I'd probably be happer with     my @l := @(1,2,3,4,5)   to explicitly make a list or array
21:26 jnthn *nod*
21:26 jnthn I'll make it work like NQP on Parrot for now.
21:26 pmichaud wfm
21:26 sorear ooh then we could finally have hash constructors
21:26 plobsing joined #perl6
21:26 * sorear out
21:27 jnthn 5 out of 7 tests in 17-positional.t pass :-)
21:27 pmichaud I'm been toying with the notion of giving PCT/PAST a 'hash' constructor type to go along with the 'list' constructor type.  :-)
21:28 jnthn Hashes are next on my NQP.NET hit list I think. :-)
21:29 jnthn Tssk. I need return at some point before I can even think about ClassHOW too.
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21:31 tylercurtis Metamodel implementation-detail question... Classes are packages, but what is the thing that is a package for classes? Is it the HOW, the WHAT, or is there just a package that corresponds to the class?
21:32 rvrgs joined #perl6
21:33 jnthn .WHO gets the underlying package.
21:34 jnthn .WHAT is the type object, .HOW is the meta-object.
21:34 Entonian joined #perl6
21:34 moritz_ rakudo: say Int.WHO
21:34 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Int␤»
21:34 moritz_ rakudo: say Int.WHO.WHAT
21:34 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Method 'WHAT' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/FDRhTD0kkY␤»
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21:39 dalek 6model: 17d7665 | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/Actions.pm:
21:39 dalek 6model: A little more undef removal.
21:39 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/1​7d76656b3705974c81b6a9dec41ed4801d739f9
21:39 dalek 6model: 704d03a | jnthn++ | dotnet/runtime/Runtime/Ops.cs:
21:39 dalek 6model: A little tweak to lllist_bind_at_pos to make life easier for code generators and enhance op consistency.
21:39 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/7​04d03a0151b09dc1b3ccbd765a0c1112aa497f5
21:39 dalek 6model: ebb368a | jnthn++ | common/NQP/NQPSetting.pm:
21:39 dalek 6model: [common] NQPArray.bind_pos plus some missing coercion methods.
21:39 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/e​bb368a97b2e1db261bccb08147a15839195163a
21:39 dalek 6model: 5cac036 | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
21:39 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Get keyed_int in place enough for array lookups (but can not has binding yet).
21:39 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/5​cac036f3ff71f600a0b0a7ceedb72b00024a1f6
21:40 tylercurtis Ah, right. I forgot about WHO.
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22:22 dalek 6model: d22037d | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
22:22 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Refactor the way we compile binds. Pass the thing to bind down in a contextual rather than relying on the structure of the tree that comes back up, otherwise we're very restricted with what kinds of stuff PAST::Var nodes can produce.
22:22 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/d​22037db02b6622997ccf626a7b38c440628eb09
22:22 dalek 6model: e6de8a1 | jnthn++ | t/nqp/17-positional.t:
22:22 dalek 6model: We now pass 17-positional.t.
22:22 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/e​6de8a1bba2e1defb30898e2ef3a3a0a92fc8f92
22:25 takadonet jnthn++
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22:27 dalek 6model: 4d3bf73 | jnthn++ | t/nqp/21-contextual.t:
22:27 dalek 6model: Turns out we have enough in place to pass 21-contextual.t too. :-)
22:27 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/4​d3bf73ee65442e8785c6502b95b615254b10ecd
22:33 dalek 6model: 7a40c79 | jnthn++ | t/nqp/36-callable.t:
22:33 dalek 6model: 36-callable.t also passes - it just checks subs are first class.
22:33 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/7​a40c7944719e63258d2b7c853101167d4b70a5d
22:34 jnthn Mmmm. Staropramen++
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22:43 dalek 6model: 03d4813 | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
22:43 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Implement a basic first cut of keyed scope of PAST::Var. Gets 18-associative.t to compile, but of course we crash and burn immediately - no NQPHash type yet! :-)
22:43 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/0​3d4813a394e6684b5102a1937066081e69ef6a1
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22:49 dalek 6model: 666a4f4 | jnthn++ | dotnet/runtime/ (3 files):
22:49 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Add a very basic P6mapping representation that is used to provide a low level hash storage.
22:49 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/6​66a4f4d119699e24b8a032968c8073fad854090
22:49 dalek 6model: 435bd24 | jnthn++ | common/NQP/NQPSetting.pm:
22:49 dalek 6model: [common] Stub in NQPHash. Doesn't do anything yet other that .new.
22:49 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/4​35bd2432c492fd4441eddaf649898993e7352c9
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22:57 diakopter jnthn: do your RakudoObjects implement GetHashCode ?
23:00 jnthn diakopter: No :-)
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23:00 jnthn diakopter: Got it doing string keys locally instead and coercing to strings.
23:00 jnthn Will do proper object ones at some point.
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23:00 diakopter k
23:00 jnthn But for now I want to support the bunch of NQP that we can on Parrot.
23:00 jnthn And Parrot only does string-keyed hashes too ;-)
23:01 diakopter k cuz I was wondering/looking at the mapping thing
23:01 diakopter Dictionary<RakudoObject, RakudoObject>
23:02 jnthn It's Dictionary<string, RakudoObject> now
23:02 diakopter I definitely saw Dictionary<RakudoObject, RakudoObject> somewhere
23:02 jnthn Right, in my commit a moment ago. :-)
23:03 * diakopter notes the use of resharper
23:04 diakopter :)
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23:05 jnthn ...resharper?
23:05 jnthn No, I didn't get along with it.
23:06 jnthn Tried it for a bit, though.
23:10 dalek 6model: 017a5ef | jnthn++ | dotnet/runtime/Metamodel/Re​presentations/P6mapping.cs:
23:10 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Actually, just go with string keys for now; it's plenty enough.
23:10 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/0​17a5efff75d23804575e938c6b2a5674a84b07a
23:10 dalek 6model: bae7cdf | jnthn++ | dotnet/runtime/Runtime/Ops.cs:
23:10 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Three ops for working with P6mapping.
23:10 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/b​ae7cdf8c17afd32ab4158c1d72b6735fb02cd9d
23:10 dalek 6model: 88190a8 | jnthn++ | common/NQP/NQPSetting.pm:
23:10 dalek 6model: [common] Fill out NQPHash a bit and...we have basically functioning hashes.
23:10 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/8​8190a82b08d866653c05d02dd1f450f3de3c2e2
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