Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-10-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:38 colomon http://github.com/colomon/Math-Prime
02:38 colomon deadly slow so far.  :(
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02:44 dukeleto colomon: have you seen Math::Primality on CPAN ? It might give you some ideas.
02:46 colomon dukeleto++ (I hadn't)
02:46 colomon dang this thing is slow.
02:46 colomon afk
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03:23 colomon half an hour later, it's still running the third test I wrote for it (calculating the first 1000 primes).
03:23 colomon so something better is clearly needed.
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04:05 dukeleto colomon: there are some faster algorithms implemented in Math::Primality, but some are not fully implemented
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04:14 plobsing rakudo: my @odds := 3, 5 ... *; my @primes := 2, @odds.grep(-> $x { for @z { when * > sqrt($x) { return 1 } when $x %% * { return 0 } } }); .say for @primes[^10]
04:14 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤too few positional arguments: 2 passed, 3 (or more) expected␤»
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04:16 plobsing rakudo: my @odds := 3, 5 ... *; my @primes := 2, @odds.grep(-> $x { for @primes { when * > sqrt($x) { return 1 } when $x %% * { return 0 } } }); .say for @primes[^10]
04:17 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«2␤3␤5␤7␤11␤13␤17␤19␤23␤29␤»
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06:07 sorear good * #perl6
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06:49 masak good morning, #perl6!
06:49 phenny masak: 19 Oct 16:49Z <moritz_> tell masak I'm sure you've seen it before -- if not, look at http://ds9a.nl/amazing-dna/
06:49 masak moritz__: found it yesterday too :)
06:50 masak it's very detailed, and I haven't more than skimmed it yet. but the analogy as such is very tempting (for programmers), and the author seems pretty aware of where it breaks down.
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07:06 sorear masak: hello!
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07:09 masak hi sorear.
07:11 masak when a reddit thread looks like this, I know my topic was probably a bit too narrow for the crowds: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dt9z8/extending_the_syntax_of_perl_6/
07:11 masak :)
07:14 sorear masak: does strangely consistent do comments?
07:14 masak no, not yet.
07:14 masak I've planned to add a static page about it not doing comments. I'll add that now.
07:16 masak the roadmap is (1) import all old comments from use.perl.org; (2) make it possible to make new comments.
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07:17 * sorear needs to re-read S05 on alias rules
07:17 sorear there are too many of them.  or they haven't clicked strangely consistent for me.  or both.
07:18 masak having implemented them once, I'd say they're pretty sane.
07:18 masak they're not always what the implementor expects, though :)
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07:23 * sorear wonders stuff like what <foo=[x]> does
07:23 masak it binds $<foo> to the contents of the group. doesn't matter if it's capturing or not.
07:24 masak oh wait. that's an assertion.
07:24 masak hm.
07:25 masak in that case, I have no clue. I'd have to go check S05 myself.
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08:08 masak luqui++ http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/10/18/idewtf/
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08:15 masak sorear: now the "no comments" text at the header of each blog post links to http://strangelyconsistent.org/no-comments
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08:21 jnthn morning, #perl6
08:22 mathw morning jnthn
08:24 sorear hey jnthn
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08:34 moritz_ good morning
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08:39 Guest68174 Hello, I have few questions regarding the perl6 language.
08:39 moritz_ hi
08:39 moritz_ go right ahead
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08:40 * sorear needs to do something awesome to race ahead of jnthn
08:40 Guest68174 mortiz: what are the main areas where this language is expected to been mostly used (for example we like ruby because of rails, Perl was loved for web implementations too in past)
08:41 sorear We don't.
08:41 sorear Perl 6 is designed to handle unexpected applications
08:41 moritz_ Guest68174: that's a bit like asking "what are the main areas where screwdrivers are used?"
08:41 moritz_ or maybe "where are computers used?"
08:41 sorear the overriding principle is "how do we make a language that will be relevant in 20 years"?
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08:43 sorear Perl 5 has lasted the last 17 years because of dynamism, CPAN, and a principle of making simple things simple
08:43 Guest68174 mortiz_: I understand you, but as you know perl 5 is now getting less and less used despite it is considered a genaral purpose programming language.. but other programming languages like ruby and python are taking the lead nowadays.. so what will perl6 provide to be in the lead?
08:44 moritz_ Guest68174: Citation needed (for Perl being used less)
08:45 moritz_ Guest68174: anyway, there's a lot that Perl 6 offers
08:45 moritz_ from grammars over lazy list to hygienic macros
08:45 dalek rakudo: eef929e | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
08:45 dalek rakudo: bump PARROT_REVISION to 2.9.1 release
08:45 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/eef929e8db16d1b50e0c4aaad6223598d2020d5f
08:45 am0c (what the flame)
08:46 moritz_ Guest68174: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/crybo/rakudo_stars_really_really_release_ready_porting/c0ut9um has a list of nice features
08:46 jnthn sorear: I'd say Niecza is rather ahead of NQP.NET. :-)
08:47 am0c but I can understand Guest68174, because at the most first time Larry made Perl(Pearl) with purpose.
08:49 sorear Is it still an inferiority complex if you created it for motivational purposes?
08:49 Guest68174 mortiz_: thank you for the links I will check them now :) One feature I am sure of now is having a "very friendly community" :)
08:50 moritz_ Guest68174: btw take a second look at my name, the i comes before the t :-)
08:51 Guest68174 moritz_: oh I am so sorry for that :) it is just that the one I used is more common where I live :)
08:52 moritz_ no problem
08:53 jnthn I would recommend tab completion but it's dangerous in the m-space. ;-)
08:54 Guest68174 yeah..
08:56 * sorear wonders if we have anyone else from Guest68174's area
08:59 Guest68174 sorear: how does that relate to anything?
09:00 sorear I just like a geographically diverse community
09:00 sorear jnthn++ alone has most of Europe covered ;)
09:01 jnthn Hey, my beer belly isn't *that* big. :P
09:04 jnthn There's plenty of folks from Europe here, anyways. :-) I keep running into them at workshops. :-)
09:05 * jnthn grumbles about TFS being a sad excuse for a version control system
09:05 * sorear wonders if he can count nothingmuch and rindolf
09:06 moritz_ that's two, if you can't :-)
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09:10 am0c Is cpan6 being made or designed?
09:11 moritz_ currently it seems we're stuck in both phases
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09:11 BinGOs its a game in two halves.
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09:13 * masak has a feeling that cpan6 is need-driven, and that the need isn't all there yet
09:14 moritz_ right
09:14 sorear right now it's more apathy-driven
09:14 masak we have modules.perl6.org, and it works for now. attempts to dream ahead or hook up with CPAN are met with resistance, not from devs/users, but from reality itself in some way.
09:15 masak sorear: if you're willing to equate "resources spread thin" and "apathy", then sure.
09:16 am0c hm I see
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09:17 BinGOs cpan6 implies toolchain6
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09:18 masak mst on Moose/p6-oo: http://twitter.com/shadowcat_mst/status/27890522144
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09:20 jnthn lol
09:20 jnthn I find mst increasingly irritating rather than helpful.
09:20 sorear I agree with mst, fwiw
09:20 moritz_ it's also curious that mst now uses "camelia" for Perl 6, but still uses "perl" for Perl 5
09:21 jnthn Yes. I don't like that.
09:21 moritz_ when I talked to him at YAPC::EU, he seemed to be have other plans
09:21 masak now that you mention it, neither do I.
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09:21 masak sorear: oh! by the way, I recently learned that Rakudo *does* have an attribute MOP.
09:22 sorear moritz_: I think that's just twitter length limits talking
09:22 sorear on IRC it's camelia perl and raptor perl
09:23 BinGOs but Perl5 is people!
09:23 moritz_ sorear: "raptor" is not much longer than "perl", so I don't accept that
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09:23 masak I don't like the label "Camelia Perl" at all. maybe I'll get used to it, I dunno.
09:24 masak to me the language remains "Perl 6". it has a bit of negative PR attached to it, but not as much as some would perhaps think. it still represents hope and change for many people.
09:24 mathw Perl 6 is even shorter, so...
09:24 moritz_ well, camelia is a relatively new invention, compared to Perl 6
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09:26 masak in some ways I think it's a mixing-together of levels to be calling Perl 6 "Camelia". it's a bit like calling Perl 5 "that camel language" -- not entierly wrong, but not very coherent, either.
09:26 mathw I find it comes across as erogatory, which may be the intention. I don't think mst really wants to call Perl 6 anything that might make people think it's Perl.
09:27 masak I'm still willing to give mst the benefit of the doubt.
09:27 mathw Of course, I'm biased.
09:27 sorear I think mst is doing a remarkably good job of coming to terms with his new identity as a Perl *5* guts hacker
09:28 masak aye.
09:28 masak I'd rather have 20 msts than 1 ank.
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09:30 sorear um, 20 msts would make #p5p implode
09:30 masak :)
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09:34 masak I've enjoyed talking to Matt Trout the person as well as being barked at by mst the persona. in some sense, mst is a singleton object, and having even two in the same IRC channel would be redundant.
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09:36 masak see also http://www.shadowcat.co.uk/blog/matt-s-trout/on-being-a-bastard/
09:38 masak risou++ # "Welcome to Perl 6! Is Rakudo Star useful?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95H7zvewBS8
09:38 szbalint I am convinced that there are 20 msts somewhere in a basement, but only one of them is ever present in public. The rest just hacks away on cool stuff.
09:38 masak :)
09:39 sorear right, if there were ever 2 msts in public at once, it would cause severe damage to reality
09:41 masak hm, the "usable Perl 6 features" slide seems to be put together from ChangeLog entries.
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09:43 moritz_ or maybe from http://rakudo.org/status
09:43 masak that might be it.
09:44 masak nope, it can't be.
09:44 masak at least not exclusively.
09:44 masak my eye picked out "Nil is now undefined" which sounds more like ChangeLog than rakudo.org/status
09:45 moritz_ right
09:45 masak I like the talk so far. he's very honest about what's there and what's not.
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09:45 * moritz_ doesn't understand most of it
09:45 masak I'm looking at it with the sound turned off, fwiw.
09:46 masak that seems to work fine.
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09:47 masak here's the second part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87Y9BP1qywQ
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09:50 * moritz_ is always surprised when a non-#perl6 regular talks about Perl 6
09:51 colomon ack, my "1000th prime" test is still running, seven hours after I started it.
09:51 mathw not everyone is on IRC...
09:52 masak moritz_: risou is very active through Twitter, and I tweet with him sometimes.
09:52 mathw colomon: are you sure the algorithm will terminate?
09:52 colomon mathw: it worked okay for the first 60 primes.
09:53 colomon and barring some weird programming error, it should stop every time a prime is found...
09:53 masak "Perl 5.14.0 will be released earlier than implementation of Perl 6 that has all features". nuh, yah. :)
09:53 masak I'm not sure there's even an end in sight, let alone soon.
09:53 moritz_ I'm sure that perl 6.0 will be released before Perl 5 is feature complete :-)
09:54 masak risou discourages "use for the business". I strongly suspect he means "production", which is orthogonal to "business".
09:55 masak but clearly, his heart is in the right place. his presentation covers a lot of things that I haven't seen others cover with the same clarity depth.
09:55 masak ss/clarity depth/clarity and depth/
09:55 moritz_ since I haven't seen a good definition of "production" yet, maybe "business" is clearer
09:56 masak "Let's use Rakudo Star positively!" \o/
09:57 masak moritz_: to me, "production" just means that something is used as a product, something that can be consumed by people. hence, my new blog is an example of Rakudo being used in production.
09:59 masak TimToady++ is on there too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJUVP2Z13Yo
10:00 masak is that another Rakudo-based presentation I see?
10:00 * masak is not sure
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10:03 masak oh, and also, risou joined #perl6 as late as yesterday. admittedly not a regular, though.
10:04 dalek niecza/master: 9b64deb | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
10:04 dalek niecza/master: Reimagine cursor_herelang as mixing in a role
10:04 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/9b64debf75d81da0b672a46e080b33cc149ab1ae
10:04 dalek niecza/master: 4c83f15 | sorear++ | / (7 files):
10:04 dalek niecza/master: Implement $<foo> = [bar]
10:04 dalek niecza/master:
10:04 dalek niecza/master: This required a bit of restructuring to support synthetic subrules,
10:04 dalek niecza/master: which might not always trap captures or cut operators.
10:04 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/4c83f15580d8767f63db30cc6a45d26fed3e0890
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10:05 masak Juerd: ping
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10:06 masak phenny: tell Juerd tried to restart november on feather, got this: http://gist.github.com/636134 -- any suggestions?
10:06 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when Juerd is around.
10:07 Juerd masak: apache2
10:07 phenny Juerd: 10:06Z <masak> tell Juerd tried to restart november on feather, got this: http://gist.github.com/636134 -- any suggestions?
10:07 Juerd This tells me that you should learn to tab complete everything :)
10:07 Juerd You'd have discovered it already
10:07 masak Juerd: please update the info on http://feather.perl6.nl/
10:07 Juerd Can you do it?
10:08 masak Juerd: that's why I didn't tab-complete, I copy-pasted.
10:08 Juerd Aha
10:08 Juerd Please test if the instructions work with apache2 without modification
10:08 masak ok.
10:08 masak it doesn't.
10:09 masak apache2: Syntax error on line 20 of /home/masak/apache/httpd.conf: Cannot load /usr/lib/apache/1.3/mod_log_config.so into server: /usr/lib/apache/1.3/mod_log_config.so: undefined symbol: ap_month_snames
10:09 moritz_ masak: docs/feather/index.html in the mu repo
10:09 masak conf file probably needs updating to apache2.
10:10 masak oh! the paths are all wrong now, of course.
10:10 Juerd It's interesting that apparently nobody has tried this for years
10:10 masak I rebooted November successfully as late as a month ago.
10:10 moritz_ Juerd: I think we had apache 1.3 and 2.2 installed in parallel for a quite long time
10:11 Juerd Yes
10:11 masak at that time, apache (no 2) existed.
10:11 Juerd A month ago?
10:11 masak something like that.
10:11 masak I need to start November occasionally.
10:11 Juerd That's slightly unlikely since Debian hasn't supported apache 1.3 for a few years now, and there have been dist-upgrades
10:11 masak because the server dips, etc.
10:11 Juerd OTOH you won't be lying about this. I'm confused.
10:12 sorear dips?
10:12 Juerd apt-get vehemently tries to remove all apache1-stuff, and has for a long time
10:12 masak sorear: goes down and comes back up again.
10:13 masak Juerd: this is the last documented instance: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-08-22#i_2734235
10:13 masak two months ago.
10:13 Juerd Very strange
10:14 Juerd Maybe someone had apache1 compiled manually
10:14 Juerd I removed some old user homedirs with the migration
10:14 Juerd But that wouldn't remove symlinks of course
10:15 Juerd afk
10:15 moritz_ there's no dangling /usr/sbin/apache symlink
10:15 dalek niecza/master: ce8fb09 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
10:15 dalek niecza/master: Implement numbered (captures)
10:15 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/ce8fb09300e25b48f595360655a6c7a32876b846
10:15 masak moritz_: maybe the /usr/sbin directory wasn't migrated.
10:16 masak *lol* # http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-10-19#i_2925736
10:17 * sorear out
10:19 moritz_ huh
10:20 moritz_ in the second part of that video, TimToady talks about parallelizing infix X**
10:20 moritz_ isn't that lazy?
10:20 colomon yes
10:20 dalek niecza/master: f9817db | sorear++ | / (3 files):
10:20 dalek niecza/master: Implement $*GOAL
10:20 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/f9817db020f366a45de5dc8c4287b62e8fee0b8b
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10:29 colomon just tweaked the prime code and made it 12x faster for the first 100 primes case.
10:29 moritz_ is the code public somewhere?
10:30 colomon http://github.com/colomon/Math-Prime/blob/master/lib/Math/Prime.pm
10:30 colomon but that's the slow version
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10:33 masak pythonian4000afk: make up your mind :)
10:41 colomon 1000th prime test still slow
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10:42 mathw colomon: these things have a habit of taking ages :(
10:44 colomon I've pushed the faster version (even though the third test hasn't finished yet).
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10:50 moritz_ colomon: maybe better:  my @primes := 2, 3, &next-prime ... *; sub primes() is export(:DEFAULT) { @primes }
10:51 colomon moritz_++ # I was trying to figure out how to do something like that.
10:51 colomon I forget I can use the scoping rules to my advantage sometimes.
10:51 colomon won't actually help for my current issue, but it would be a good deal in general.
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10:55 moritz_ colomon: http://nopaste.snit.ch/24621
10:56 colomon does it work for 2?
10:56 colomon moritz_++
10:56 moritz_ yes
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10:59 moritz_ colomon: want a patch including a test?
10:59 colomon already added the patch (not commited)
10:59 colomon paste the tests?
10:59 moritz_ +is (1..20).grep(&is-prime).join(', '),
10:59 moritz_ +    '2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19',
10:59 moritz_ +    'is-prime 1..20';
10:59 colomon (I started on them)
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10:59 colomon dude, elegant!
11:00 * mathw falls in love with Perl 6 again
11:01 mathw That's so... Haskelly
11:01 colomon hmmm, getting errors all over.  :(
11:02 colomon oh
11:02 moritz_ works here
11:03 colomon it's not your code, it's mine
11:03 colomon ETOOMANYCHANGESATONCE
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11:04 colomon it was my attempt to do the my @primes := thing that broke everything.
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11:13 moritz_ doesn't seem to work out that easily
11:13 jnthn I eated an awesome cheezburger for lunch \o/
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11:37 colomon moritz_: did you try the @primes mod as well?
11:37 colomon it seems like @primes is right, but
11:37 colomon sub primes() is export(:DEFAULT) { @primes; }
11:37 colomon is not.
11:38 jnthn is export(:DEFAULT) is the smae as is export
11:38 jnthn Or at least, should be.
11:38 colomon I think I was just copying what's in the spectests for is export.
11:39 moritz_ colomon: maybe lazy lists don't like it when they are reified in several different places (through the return value binding)?
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11:45 moritz_ afk
11:47 colomon very confused here
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11:49 colomon everything works fine in the .pm file, but gets weird in the test file.
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11:51 colomon ooooo!
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11:51 colomon it's primes.munch which is screwing things up.
11:51 colomon it's actually munching the original list
11:52 colomon seems unacceptable in the long run, but easy to fix in the short run
11:54 takadonet morning all
11:55 jnthn o/ takadonet
11:56 colomon \o
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12:02 masak \o takadonet
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12:04 masak someone from .jp blogs about Perl 6: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/nishiohirokazu/20101020/1287574907
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12:04 masak that 'does A;' syntax -- is it still allowed by spec?
12:04 masak rakudo: role A {}; class Foo { does A; }; say "alive"
12:05 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«alive␤»
12:05 masak huh.
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12:08 jnthn masak: It got changed I think.
12:08 masak colomon: (re [perl #78454]) in Perl 6, always close your filehandles manually.
12:08 masak jnthn: 'also does', right?
12:09 jnthn masak: But Rakudo did ne catch up yet.
12:09 jnthn Right.
12:09 colomon masak: is that a language requirement or a rakudo requirement?
12:09 colomon masak: either way it's broken enough I'd have to seriously rethink ever using perl 6 for a major project
12:10 wallberg hi all! I just checked the release notes for the new Parrot 2.90.  What does "Parrot and Rakudo Perl 6 now have access to the GCC Compile Farm" mean? What can be achieved with that?
12:12 masak colomon: automatic closing of filehandles hinges on reference counting. Perl 6, unlike Perl 5, uses a "real GC", not reference counting. thus there is no guarantee that as a variable goes out of scope, the object it contains is immediately GC'd.
12:13 jnthn Aye, but you'd expect it to get collected at program end, I guess.
12:13 masak wallberg: good question. I'd like to know, too. I've completely missed that.
12:13 masak jnthn: I've learnt not to expect that either.
12:13 colomon masak: yes, but that's completely different from saying it's okay if it's NEVER GC'd
12:13 jnthn masak: You can't rely on it in current Rakudo.
12:13 masak jnthn: ok.
12:13 masak colomon: that's your answer, then.
12:13 wallberg masak: ok.
12:13 masak I agree that it definitely should be GC'd eventually.
12:14 colomon masak: but the question is, is that a rakudo bug or a perl 6 design issue
12:14 colomon ?
12:14 jnthn masak: Though it's not insane to say that it should try GC everything left at exit.
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12:14 masak jnthn: right.
12:15 masak colomon: sounds from what jnthn says that it's purely a Rakudo bug.
12:15 masak colomon: (probably with Parrot roots)
12:15 jnthn To clarify
12:16 jnthn It's not a bug nor a design issue that it isn't closed at scope exit.
12:16 jnthn It is a bug imo that it isn't closed/flushed at program exit though, and if the spec doesn't have a note to say that this should happen, we may want to consider adding one so it's clearly laid down.
12:17 masak +1
12:17 colomon +1
12:17 jnthn fwiw, I tracked down a very, very similar issue to this here at $dayjob recently
12:17 masak a whole little section on the expectations on the GC (and differences from Perl 5) would be nice.
12:17 jnthn But in C#, not Perl 6.
12:17 jnthn It's easy to get such mess.
12:18 colomon personally, I think this is one area where non-garbage-collected C++ really has it much better than things like C#
12:18 AndroUser good morning..
12:18 jnthn aye, it's a trade-off.
12:18 jnthn Though I know which way I usually prefer to trade. :-)
12:19 masak AndroUser: morning!
12:19 flussence masak, wallberg: a compile farm is usually just a bunch of homogeneous machines/VMs to ensure things work the same across them all
12:20 flussence (probably meant heterogeneous there, dunno)
12:20 masak flussence: I'm with you so far. was more wondering about this particular one; when/how/why it happened, and why it's noteworthy.
12:20 masak (not saying it's not, just wondering why)
12:21 AndroUser i have a question i am new in perl but. is posible to make web application with perl??
12:21 wallberg flussence: so, like easy compiling for ARM on Intel and such?
12:21 masak AndroUser: yes, but (unless you are asking about Perl 6 specifically), you're in the wrong channel.
12:21 masak AndroUser: try irc.perl.org, and something like #catalyst
12:21 AndroUser yes i am talking about perl6
12:22 masak oh, you are? excellent!
12:22 flussence wallberg: pretty much, it's just to prevent releasing something that turns out to be broken
12:22 masak AndroUser: I have a blog written in Perl 6: http://strangelyconsistent.org/
12:22 flussence mozilla has a similar thing for example
12:22 masak AndroUser: so yes, it's possible.
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12:22 AndroUser i saw a youtube tutorial this morning i i like the syntax
12:22 masak AndroUser: we like it too :)
12:23 wallberg masak: perhaps a silly question, but last time I tried Perl 6 in Rakuda there were massive memory leaks in arrays and considerable slowness every here and there. how have things changed over the last six months? do you think it is possible to start doing "capable" and "performant" bioinformatics tools in Perl 6 yet?
12:23 colomon wallberg: nope
12:23 masak AndroUser: might be a good idea to start with something simpler than a web application, though. mostly because of the state of Perl 6; not all pieces are in place yet. kind of a construction site.
12:23 flussence it's getting better
12:24 masak wallberg: "Rakudo".
12:24 colomon wallberg: things are a bit better, but it's probably still a couple of orders of magnitude too slow for bioinformatics
12:24 masak wallberg: probably still early. what the others are saying.
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12:25 flussence wallberg: rakudo is about as optimised as JS in Firefox 2.0, as a reference point
12:25 masak wallberg: I find today's Rakudo has more stability than last year's, though. it's more difficult to sink it with some bus error or other memory corruption.
12:25 AndroUser i am in the process to open a software companie
12:25 masak wallberg: but it's still a slow memory hog.
12:25 colomon moritz_: I just added you to the Math-Prime committers.  ;)
12:26 takadonet colomon: It's really still too slow for bioinformatics. It needs lazy grammar before it can be really used
12:27 * colomon is a bit sad that his Rakudo prime code is actually slower on his MacBook Pro than his old BASIC code was on his Commodore 64
12:27 AndroUser masak we want to develop a school appplication you think perl6 is ready for that??
12:27 kensanata AndroUser: I understand the comments to mean "not ready for productive use"
12:29 wallberg masak: and others, what is the general recommendation for developing Perl 5 tools that are easily ported further down the line and that remains as close as possible to the syntax and style of Perl 6? Is it Moose or do we have other options that are even closer to P6?
12:29 masak AndroUser: ...probably not. but the only way to know for sure is to look at what's there.
12:30 masak wallberg: Moose is a really good start. Modern Perl 5 in general is a really good start.
12:30 flussence wallberg: Moose is a good idea in general, whether or not it ends up ported to perl6.
12:31 masak +1
12:31 masak though I wouldn't use Moose unless I needed the OO.
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12:34 wallberg ok, yeah I tried it a bit for some small tools, but it is just that I felt a bit overwhelmed by all the sugar that could be applied everywhere so that in the end, I did not really grokk what the core of Moose was and how portable my code would be across servers. also, while I am sure the developers did a great job, I felt I lost some control over how my objects were built and how much RAM they used. I would really like Moose to finds its way into the
12:34 wallberg standard distribution of Perl, but I am sure others disagree.
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12:36 wallberg in any case, there is no such thing as a stable and maintained "Perl 6 syntax module" for Perl 5 on CPAN, right?
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12:44 masak wallberg: not sure exactly what you mean by that.
12:45 masak Perl 6 is not just syntax. there's only a certain extent to which Perl 5 could be made to look like Perl 6.
12:45 masak there are modules on CPAN for specific things, though.
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12:48 wallberg masak: I am not sure what I mean either :-) apart from using the most portable coding style when starting new Perl 5 projects.
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12:48 masak to me, it comes down to a small set of practices.
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12:49 wallberg masak: could that perhaps be the topic of a few future blog posts from a Perl 6 master as yourself? ;-)
12:49 masak and I still occasionally get bitten by slight differences, such as the (lack of) comma after the block after `map` in Perl 5, or the need for parentheses after `if`/`while`/`for`.
12:49 masak wallberg: I'm hardly a master. but I'll happily write such a post.
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12:52 wallberg masak: great! I found MooseX::Declare to use an OO style pretty similar to Perl 6.
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12:54 masak wallberg: yes, I was wondering whether to suggest that one.
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12:57 masak I'd also recommend MooseX::Method::Signatures for the same reason.
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13:00 wallberg masak: ahh. Yeah, that one looks great. The problem is that these modules are not very "discoverable" for many of us schmucks who do not spend most of our time programming, so some hints like these are great to prepare for and ease the transition into Perl 6 when the time comes.
13:01 wallberg sort of a "Poor mans Perl 6"
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13:04 masak here on #perl6, we already have a "Poor man's Perl 6" :) so the need for it is not as great, I would think.
13:05 masak wallberg: myself, I only discovered modules such as those by talking to Perl 5 people.
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13:06 masak speaking of which, we really should form that Uppsala.pm group, to inform each other of things like these :)
13:06 wallberg yeah, were is that group? ;-)
13:06 masak so far, only in our heads.
13:06 * mathw mumbles about people who are lucky enough to have Perl > 5.005 available at work
13:07 flussence oof, and I thought being stuck with 5.8 was painful.
13:07 mathw Well we've got some 5.6 and 5.8
13:07 mathw but the lowest common denominator is 5.005
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13:08 wallberg oh man, is that machine running DOS or something?
13:08 mathw We don't do much Perl, but when I do some Perl I'd like to, you know, do it properly
13:08 mathw wallberg: Solaris 8
13:09 wallberg ahh, yeah on those SUN panzer machines that refuse to die, right?
13:09 takadonet Lowest is 5.8.8 here!
13:09 takadonet stupid centos 5
13:10 flussence .oO( that's the problem with machines built to keep running... you can't get rid of them )
13:11 wallberg or sell to the same customer twice ;-)
13:11 takadonet well I might start using App::perlbrew and is that as my base for programs
13:11 takadonet having perl 5.14 would be sweet
13:12 mathw we are ditching Solaris 8
13:12 mathw the company find it uncomfortble to use without Sun's support :)
13:13 mathw the Solaris 10 machines seem to have perl 5.8 on them
13:13 mathw so the situation will be better once the migration's complete
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13:13 BinGOs still Solaris 10 comes with a dog-old version of Perl5
13:14 jnthn Clearly 5.10 and 5.12 aren't dated enough to be Enterprise Ready yet. ;-)
13:15 BinGOs heh
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13:15 mathw I think if we did any serious development in Perl I could convince people to get 5.12
13:15 mathw or at least 5.10
13:15 mathw just keep saying "switch statement"
13:15 flussence or "say"
13:15 mathw I don't think that's as important
13:16 mathw When I do Perl training, they're always moaning about switch
13:16 flussence .oO( verbally ending every sentence with "backslash n"... )
13:16 mathw I had to put in a slide about given/when and how they can't use it yet
13:16 BinGOs ~~ operators
13:17 masak I definitely miss 'say' more than given/when on older Perls.
13:17 flussence oh, and (?<name>...) is awesome. Too bad I can't use it where I need regex the most...
13:17 flussence long-winded regex at that
13:18 masak flussence: I'll go so far as agreeing that the semantics are awesome :)
13:20 masak Perl 6 regexes/grammars (if you ask me) make up one of the more solid arguments why Perl 6 is *better* than (and not just different from) Perl 5.
13:20 takadonet masak: for sure. Writing grammar for bioinformatics file format is really easy
13:21 mathw say is a nice convenience when you're used to it, but it's not something that sells a Perl upgrade to people IMO
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13:21 wallberg masak: yeah, I'd love to have those for parsing all the stupid bioinformatics formats around that seems to have be produced by minions of the Dark Lord himself
13:21 masak mathw: that's probably it. I'm hooked on 'say' already.
13:21 flussence somewhat related, I think it'd be neat if I could give unpack() something that looks visually like a C struct, and get a nice hash back (and vice-versa)
13:21 takadonet masak: problem is that I need lazy loading so I can 'quickly' search for a particular key/value pair then read the whole freaking thing
13:22 masak flussence: I really like the idea, and I think we should think up an API for it.
13:22 takadonet wallberg: do you work with bioinformatics file formats?
13:22 wallberg yeah
13:23 flussence I've actually written something like it for $dayjob, but arrayrefs of arrayrefs are horrible to work with. It'd look much nicer in p6.
13:23 flussence (I might try making something like it later today, actually)
13:23 wallberg takadonet: parsing stuff like ace and that crappy fastq format that make you want to pull your hair
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13:24 jnthn masak, flussence: S09 has compact structs which may do that kinda thing.
13:25 takadonet wallberg: Ouch. So far I have a fasta and hmmer format done in grammars
13:26 wallberg takadonet: well, I actually gave up on doing it in grammars in Perl 6 and did it in Perl 5.
13:26 masak jnthn: aye, but it seems there is some (as yet unspec'd/unexplored) connection between pack/unpack and the compact structs of S09.
13:26 wallberg masak: one thing that would also be useful for the "blogs" would be a recommendation for IO formats that are likely to be implemented early on in Perl 6. JSON? YAML? XML?
13:26 jnthn masak: aye
13:26 takadonet wallberg: Which format?
13:26 masak wallberg: there's already JSON.
13:27 wallberg masak: aha. I did not know that. thats good to hear.
13:27 flussence jnthn: looking at that, it would need to know at least which order the fields are in. it's 90% of what I was looking for though!
13:27 masak wallberg: people seem to be wanting to write XML parsers almost as an initiation rite to grammars. don't know if we have any really stable ones, though -- or really if it should be done in pure Perl 6 at all.
13:27 masak wallberg: http://modules.perl6.org
13:28 colomon masak++
13:28 masak wallberg: YAML is possible nowadays, but no-one has bitten down and actually done it. ingy is kinda sorta on the way, but he seems to be working breadth-first in 5 different languages at the same time.
13:28 flussence of course, we could just cheat and hook into libyaml :)
13:29 colomon no, wait.  where's the official module list kept these days?  I need to add Math::Prime.
13:29 masak flussence: I'd like that.
13:29 masak colomon: http://github.com/perl6/ecosystem
13:29 flussence I'm surprised that's not been done already
13:29 masak flussence: well volunteered!
13:30 flussence .oO( I'm giving myself a huge list of Things To Do In Perl 6 now... )
13:30 flussence :D
13:30 masak flussence: I'd certainly use it.
13:30 masak without a doubt.
13:30 takadonet same
13:30 masak flussence: you might want to look at http://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj
13:31 masak that might be the easiest way to hook into lib-anything right now.
13:31 wallberg masak: thanks. That yaml effort would buy a lot of beer in Uppsala if finalized. That is the perfect format for non-programming biologists to write input files in.
13:31 wallberg (IMHO)
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13:31 masak nod
13:31 masak maybe I should help flussence, then :)
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13:32 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
13:32 takadonet pmichaud: morning
13:32 masak pmichaud: mroing! how's $!cold?
13:33 pmichaud $!cold is gone, replaced with $!worse  :-(
13:33 colomon pmichaud: o/
13:33 masak :(
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13:36 dalek ecosystem: 2daf67e | colomon++ | projects.list:
13:36 dalek ecosystem: Switch ABC to currently updated version, add Math::Prime.
13:36 dalek ecosystem: review: http://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/2daf67e12ddecbcb618e0291a63b3511ddd713b6
13:37 mathw Ah XML parsers
13:37 mathw horrible things
13:37 flussence they're relatively nice
13:37 flussence I've tried writing HTML parsers a few times, not fun
13:38 flussence where the "HTML" is user comments on a webpage, so usually not HTML at all...
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13:40 masak after looking at how TimToady's presentation software behaves, my guess is that it's not written on top of Rakudo.
13:40 masak if it was, I'd see some IO lag.
13:47 colomon rakudo: 227000.sqrt.say
13:47 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«476.445169982864␤»
13:48 masak rakudo: say 100.sqrt.WHAT
13:48 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
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13:50 jnthn o/ pmichaud
13:50 masak 100.sqrt should be a Num, but +100.sqrt should be an Int, right?
13:50 jnthn pmichaud: $!worse--
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13:51 pmichaud jnthn: yeah.
13:51 colomon masak: why?
13:52 masak colomon: because prefix:<+> converts to the narrowest possible Numeric type.
13:52 jnthn masak: ?
13:52 colomon masak: it does?!
13:52 masak colomon: so that things like 'my Int $n = +$<foo>' will work.
13:53 jnthn masak: I'd think .Numeric on something that already is Numeric is identity.
13:53 jnthn And the result of .sqrt is decidedly Numeric.
13:53 colomon how would you even define the narrowest possible Numeric type?
13:53 masak jnthn: that was my question.
13:53 masak colomon: if it helps, I could write down what I mean by that. but basically Int, then Rat, then Num.
13:54 flussence narrowest possible: "Int" unless it has non-zeroes after the dot, I guess
13:54 pmichaud note that the spec says "narrowest type" for non-numerics
13:54 masak flussence: yes; in the case of going from a string.
13:54 pmichaud for numerics, I think prefix:<+> is identity
13:55 masak and maybe that makes sense.
13:55 masak that's why I asked :)
13:57 colomon I'd argue it doesn't even make sense for "non-numerics" in general.
13:57 colomon Stringy, sure
13:57 masak here's some prior discussion on this: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=62622
13:59 masak through all of these discussions, I've argued for a "numify to narrowest numeric type", simply because it doesn't hurt and it's nice for those who need it.
13:59 pmichaud I'm thinking that prefix:<+>($x)   simply returns  $x.Numeric
13:59 masak my +100.sqrt question above was for the times when you want the narrowest type but already have a Numeric.
13:59 pmichaud and then it's up to .Numeric to decide what the appropriate narrowing criteria is.
13:59 jnthn pmichaud: I thought that's what it already did?
14:00 pmichaud jnthn: it may be
14:00 jnthn If not, it's what I expect it to do.
14:00 jnthn 'k
14:00 masak pmichaud: by that token, it sounds like +100.sqrt might well give an Int back.
14:00 colomon jnthn: yes, that's what it already does
14:00 jnthn colomon: +1
14:00 colomon except Numeric doesn't decide anything like that
14:00 pmichaud masak: that would depend on what Int.sqrt returns
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14:00 colomon at least, not for Numeric types.
14:00 jnthn masak: +100.sqrt will give back what 100.sqrt gives back because the result is Numeric.
14:01 colomon as jnthn suggested earlier, Numeric.Numeric just returns self.
14:01 masak pmichaud: I'm fine with Int.sqrt returning Num always.
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14:01 pmichaud masak: then +100.sqrt  would seem to result in a Num also
14:01 pmichaud since 100.sqrt (Num) is already Numeric
14:01 masak so it's just in converting from Stringy that narrowing happens?
14:01 jnthn I belive so.
14:01 pmichaud and other non-numeric types
14:01 pmichaud for example,  +@array
14:01 jnthn aye, that too
14:01 masak I'm trying to find the underlying logic here. I understand the mechanism.
14:02 masak maybe it's Least Surprise to let prefix:<+> be a no-op for Numerics.
14:02 jnthn "I want a number. If this already is one, I'm happy."
14:02 masak then my question becomes: how do I turn a Numeric into its narrowest type?
14:02 pmichaud +~$x   :-P
14:02 masak /o\
14:03 pmichaud er,  + ~ $x
14:03 masak no please no
14:03 pmichaud or perhaps there's another method for narrowing
14:03 colomon seems to me that narrowing makes sense for Stringy, but in the general non-numeric case it should be "whatever is convenient".
14:03 jnthn masak: What is your actual use case for this?
14:03 pmichaud colomon: I can argue that narrowing makes sense for Complex, Rat, Num, etc
14:04 pmichaud i.e.,   3.4+0i   could narrow to 3.4
14:04 pmichaud and   10/5  could narrow to (Int) 2
14:04 colomon pmichaud: sure, but that's adding a good bit of overhead for something which is basically a no-op now.
14:04 masak jnthn: my Int $iknowthiswillbeanintsrsly = $somenumber.sqrt.narrow-it;
14:04 jnthn This feels more magical than +$foo should do though.
14:05 pmichaud masak:  oh, in that case   $somenumber.sqrt.Int
14:05 jnthn Then the operation you'll looking for is called .Int
14:05 colomon and we've already got a good standard way of doing that in masak's example
14:05 jnthn *you're
14:05 masak pmichaud: :)
14:05 masak I think I'm happy with that.
14:05 colomon and jnthn beat me to the punch.  :)
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14:05 pmichaud colomon: someone might have strong reasons for wanting to be able to narrow a type
14:05 masak that doesn't apply in the +$<foo> case, though.
14:05 pmichaud multi sub f(Rat $r) { ... };   multi sub f(Int $i) { ... };   f($x.narrowed)
14:05 masak because there .Int is what we're trying to avoid having to type out.
14:06 colomon pmichaud: sure, I'm not arguing there's no reason to have such a method available at all.
14:06 colomon just that it doesn't make much sense for prefix:<+>, imo
14:06 pmichaud I think I agree that prefix:<+> should be the "generic narrowing" operator.
14:07 pmichaud *shouldn't
14:07 colomon important qualifier there!  ;)
14:07 pmichaud (don't take anything I write today as gospel, btw)
14:07 pmichaud (or even as being sane)
14:09 masak prefix:<+> means numification. on this we all agree.
14:09 colomon .narrowed would also be useful if you want my Int $a = $x.narrowed to actually fail if $x cannot be turned into an Int without losing precision
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14:09 colomon anyone have a better name than .narrowed?
14:10 masak .Int(:lossless)
14:10 jnthn .narrowed sounds predicatey
14:10 flussence .compact?
14:10 jnthn .narrow is more verby
14:10 * pmichaud wonders if people will think "negated arrow"  :-P
14:12 colomon masak: but it might be that you don't want an Int, you just want something as narrow as possible
14:12 pmichaud .u 2900
14:12 phenny U+2900 RIGHTWARDS TWO-HEADED ARROW WITH VERTICAL STROKE (⤀)
14:13 masak colomon: right, as may in fact happen with .sqrt
14:13 pmichaud .u 294e
14:13 phenny U+294E LEFT BARB UP RIGHT BARB UP HARPOON (⥎)
14:14 masak rakudo: say 42.25.sqrt.Rat
14:14 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«6.5␤»
14:14 aloha joined #perl6
14:14 pmichaud .Numeric(:narrow)
14:14 masak or :narrowest
14:15 pmichaud .narrowmeric
14:16 pmichaud (see early comment re: sanity or lack thereof)
14:16 pmichaud *earlier
14:16 jnthn .narrowmatic would be a code smell though
14:16 colomon arrrr
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14:21 masak today's "tries to be an autopun but isn't, really": http://twitter.com/whatdoiknow/status/27934719446
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14:28 PerlJam greets
14:28 masak salut, PerlJam.
14:28 PerlJam what was the decision yesterday wrt parrot release used for rakudo?
14:28 PerlJam I got disconnected and never made it back on.
14:28 pmichaud 2.9.1
14:31 PerlJam ah, I see moritz has already taken care of it  :)
14:31 * dukeleto hopes that the new String.reverse method helps rakudo have a much faster 'flip'
14:32 moritz_ dukeleto: more than 100x faster
14:32 dukeleto \o/
14:32 masak rakudo: say '/o\\'.flip
14:32 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«\o/␤»
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14:39 masak Italian_Plumber: hi!
14:39 masak Italian_Plumber: has anyone mentioned that Perl 6 has pipes? :)
14:39 moritz_ rakudo: <a b > ==> .uc ==> say
14:40 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Sorry, do not know how to handle this case of a feed operator yet. at line 22, near " say"␤»
14:40 moritz_ rakudo: <a b > ==> uc ==> say
14:40 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«A B␤»
14:40 masak those look suspiciously like barewords. but I guess they're subs.
14:40 am0c^ left #perl6
14:41 jnthn That works for a very wrong reason :P
14:41 jnthn rakudo: <a b > ==> map *.uc ==> say
14:41 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«AB␤»
14:41 mathw is it supposed to be able to do that
14:41 jnthn That works for the right reason. :-)
14:42 moritz_ I thought that the ==> replaces the map() ?
14:42 jnthn no
14:42 jnthn ==> just says "put the array as an argument to the sub call"
14:43 jnthn It's meant to bind to a variadic only though, perhaps.
14:43 masak I wouldn't object to an error in the '==> uc' case.
14:44 * moritz_ then has a totally wrong understaind of feeds
14:44 * mathw doesn't understand feeds at all, clearly
14:44 pmichaud rakudo:  say uc <a b>
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14:44 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«A B␤»
14:44 masak moritz_: need to do a way instain understaind.
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14:44 pmichaud rakudo:  say uc 'a', 'b'
14:44 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤  in 'uc' at line 2613:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/ZB8pA71e75␤»
14:44 pmichaud very interesting.  :-)
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14:45 masak and correct, AFAICS.
14:45 mathw mm
14:45 jnthn Aye
14:45 jnthn pmichaud: If it expents to bind stuff to a variadic there's no need to pass it |@foo
14:45 jnthn So *@foo flattens anyways.
14:46 jnthn s/variadic/slurpy/ # gah, writing one language, talking about another :-)
14:47 masak oh, so *that*'s what "variadic" means! :P
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14:47 mathw in C++, a 'variadic template' is one which can accept variable numbers of parameters
14:47 masak aloha: aloha!
14:48 mathw they're fun, in a very brain-hurty way
14:48 mathw so I always get a bit wary when I see 'variadic' :)
14:48 masak a bit... wary-adic?
14:49 masak *SCNR*
14:49 mathw fish to the face!!
14:50 masak mmm. almost fresh.
14:50 mathw damn, wrong fish
14:50 mathw that one was supposed to be dinner
14:51 masak enjoy dinner. :)
14:51 mathw meh
14:51 jnthn Leave the un-fresh one for a few more months and it'll be a Swedish delicacy. ;-)
14:51 mathw I'm going to aikido tonight anyway, dinner's fairly irrelevant
14:51 mathw as long as I don't eat it just beforehand anyway!
14:52 jnthn rakudo: role LolVariadic[*@args] { } # ;-)
14:52 p6eval rakudo d35769:  ( no output )
14:52 mathw Perl 6 awesomeness factor just increased.
14:53 mathw Is there any way for a role to find out anything about the class it's been composed into?
14:53 masak mathw: how do you mean?
14:53 jnthn methods can look at self.WHAT and get the type object
14:54 jnthn if that's what you're after
14:54 PerlJam mathw: after a role has been composed, what does it mean to be "a role" ?
14:54 jnthn In theory $?CLASS is a geneirc reference to the class one was composed into also.
14:54 mathw PerlJam: inside a method body defined in the role {}, it's still a role
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14:55 mathw Actually what I really want is a good use-case for roles
14:55 mathw because I have seldom seen one
14:55 mathw I may be too steeped in the misuse of inheritance splattered across C++-land
14:56 PerlJam mathw: roles come into play where you would otherwise use multiple inheritance (or the language-equivalent)
14:57 PerlJam (for instance)
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14:58 masak I had an interesting AFK discussion yesterday with gentletwitterer @jfitzell.
14:58 masak he's a Smalltalk guy.
14:58 masak he didn't really see what roles would be good for if Perl 6 still had MI.
14:59 masak I explained. he thought that roles might as well just be a "flag on MI" to get the nice no-method-conflicts behavior.
14:59 masak then we talked some more. he wondered why not use roles all the time, and never inheritance.
15:00 PerlJam masak: does that mean he finally understood?  :)
15:00 masak I didn't (and still don't) have a good answer to that, except that sometimes it "feels right" to use inheritance.
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15:00 masak PerlJam: we reached some sort of consensus, at least.
15:00 masak PerlJam: he's definitely aware of what roles are. he just didn't see why Perl 6 has both them and MI.
15:01 jnthn Because TMTOWTDI.
15:01 masak I said as much.
15:01 jnthn Somebody would whine if Perl 6 didn't support MI
15:01 PerlJam I think without roles, using MI alone you end up creating artificial relationships to satisfy the needs of certain problems.
15:01 jnthn Though I woudln't be one of them.
15:01 masak I said that we are "blessed and cursed" with TIMTOWTDI.
15:02 jnthn I'd happily toss MI from Perl 6.
15:02 masak I meant to say, but forgot, that Perl 6 is meant to handle the things that Perl 5 handles.
15:02 jnthn It only makes my life more complicated. :-)
15:02 jnthn Well, though so do things that I don't want to toss ;-)
15:02 masak PerlJam: aye, definitely. that motivates roles. can you also motivate MI, given roles?
15:04 PerlJam masak: sometimes objects should really be related (via inheritance or MI) because they really are related in the thing you're modeling.
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15:04 masak that's... rather vague.
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15:04 masak or rather, would it kill you to use roles instead in that case? sounds to me like it wouldn't.
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15:06 PerlJam I'd have to think about it some, but I think this is a case where Perl philosophy still wins.  You want to be able to solve problems by adapting the code to the problem without artificial constraints imposed by the language.
15:07 masak I agree fully.
15:07 masak that's the consensus we ended up with. he said "too much rope"; I said "of course".
15:07 jnthn I can see a situation where something really *is* two things.
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15:07 jnthn And so an inheritance relationship makes sense lingustically.
15:07 masak jnthn: GlowingSword is Weapon is LightSource? :)
15:07 jnthn Yeah
15:08 masak (that's Yegge, btw)
15:08 jnthn But you could change the words around to factor it as roles too
15:08 masak right.
15:08 jnthn GlowingSword is Weapon does Shine
15:08 masak GlowingSword does Hurt does Shine
15:09 masak GlowingSword does Hurting does Shining
15:09 colomon and that's where things start getting fuzzy for me.
15:09 colomon I wonder if there's ever a reason to inherit rather than do a role.
15:09 masak for some reason I tend to want my roles as gerunds.
15:09 masak colomon: that's where jfizell and I left off.
15:10 masak I said there was, but I could only half-motivate it.
15:10 masak I said one might want to instantiate both parent and child classes.
15:10 jnthn masak: I find it fairly hard to motivate too
15:10 jnthn masak: aye but role punning may get you a bunch of the way too
15:10 jnthn So even that use case ain't so solid.
15:10 colomon ...which you can do with a role.  ;)
15:10 masak role punning is just hiding the class behind some sugar.
15:11 masak it's still a class.
15:11 jnthn But the subclass has no relationship with the punned class
15:11 jnthn They both just happen to do the role.
15:11 jnthn That's the real underlying difference there.
15:11 masak aye. not too big, AFAICS.
15:12 colomon is there a way to find the reified portion of a list?
15:12 jnthn At a practical level, perhaps not.
15:12 colomon clearly we need to do more p6 programming to figure these things out.  ;)
15:12 masak colomon: sounds like a "too internals-y for the user's own good" question. what's the use case?
15:13 colomon masak: I've got a lazy list of primes.  If I want to test to see if an arbitrary number is prime,  I'd like to just check that list if the number I'm looking for is less than the largest reified prime.
15:14 masak colomon: couldn't you keep a global variable for that purpose?
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15:14 jnthn masak: Anyway, I agree it's hard to motivate MI in Perl 6 beyond TMTOWTDI.
15:14 masak sounds like an excellent use of max=
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15:15 masak jnthn: maybe there are some cases where one would actually *prefer* C3 MRO to role flattening? though I can't see what that would be, especially not in the MI case.
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15:16 colomon masak: sure, but it would be an exact duplicate of the reified portion of my lazy list....
15:16 colomon oh
15:16 colomon hmmm
15:16 colomon and no I can't, not without rewriting things significantly.
15:16 masak actually, I think I can come up with a use case in the SI case.
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15:16 PerlJam Did the original traits paper give any examples of where you'd want MI (or just I) rather than roles?
15:17 masak PerlJam: good question. since the original traits paper pertains to Smalltalk, I'd be surprised if they mentioned MI in a favorable light :)
15:17 jnthn It talked a lot about the problems of MI and mixins and proposed roles as a better way to do it. :-)
15:18 jnthn It is really wroth reading, and quite an easy read too, fwiw.
15:18 jnthn But it doesn't really offer much on "so why still MI" from what I recall. :-)
15:19 masak http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~black/publications/TR_CSE_02-012.pdf
15:19 * masak reads
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15:25 jnthn Home time &
15:26 pmichaud 15:13 <colomon> masak: I've got a lazy list of primes.  If I want to test to see if an arbitrary number is prime,  I'd like to just check that list if the number I'm looking  for is less than the largest reified prime.
15:26 pmichaud TimToady++ and I have been working with the idea of .gimme()   which would return the number of reified items in a list
15:28 masak interestingly, http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TraitsPaper says that the traits paper explains why traits are better than SI.
15:30 colomon left #perl6
15:32 [particle]1 broken link on perl6.org
15:32 [particle]1 is now known as [particle]
15:33 masak [particle]: do you have a commit bit?
15:33 [particle] i think so... actually, i'm trying to find the repo, but the STD.pm6 link goes to a broken/missing github page
15:34 _kaare joined #perl6
15:34 masak http://github.com/perl6/perl6.org
15:34 [particle] thanks
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15:42 masak swimming &
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15:48 takadonet colomon: welcome back
15:48 colomon sorry, the wifi in the train table room is dodgy.  :)
15:48 takadonet did not miss much
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15:49 colomon and actually, I missed the crucial line from pmichaud where he talked about current notions of getting the reified items from a list.  :)
15:50 takadonet well you exited after that :) all well
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15:51 takadonet ls
15:51 takadonet .... wrong terminal
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15:58 moritz_ colomon: you can actually do the hash caching in next-prime()
15:59 colomon moritz_: except that would interfere with my priming the pump with a few dozen primes.  :)
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15:59 colomon I mean, yes, I could prime the hash as well, I guess
16:00 moritz_ my @seed = 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 19; %prime{@seed} = 1 xx *;
16:00 moritz_ my @primes := |@seed, &next-prime ... *;
16:02 * pmichaud watches TimToady++'s YAPC::Asia talk
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16:04 takadonet pmichaud: url?
16:04 aloha left #perl6
16:04 pmichaud http://www.youtube.com/user/yapcasia#p/u/76/KJUVP2Z13Yo
16:05 takadonet thanks
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16:12 hillu_ is now known as hillu
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16:14 * jnthn back
16:15 takadonet jnthn: welcome back
16:15 jnthn Hope to get a little more NQP.Net hacking in tonight :-)
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16:22 jnthn pmichaud: What is your plan for PCT::HLLCompiler? Re-write in NQP?
16:22 pmichaud Yes.
16:22 jnthn OK.
16:22 pmichaud basically add the needed methods to HLL::Compiler
16:23 jnthn I noticed it's...quite long.
16:23 jnthn Ah, add them to HLL::Compiler and eliminate the inheritance?
16:23 pmichaud PCT::HLLCompiler?  Yes.  PCT::HLLCompiler's methods are a place where I disagreed with the architecture but was "overruled"
16:24 pmichaud ("overruled" is too strong a word on its own -- but I acquiesced to others' ideas of how it should work and wish I hadn't)
16:24 pmichaud but yes, eventually HLL::Compiler can conceptually eliminate the inheritance
16:25 jnthn OK.
16:26 jnthn I've plenty to work on in NQP.Net for now, so no huge urgency. Once that is sorted out sufficiently then I can switch NQP's class keyword to use ClassHOW, I expect. :-)
16:26 jnthn After that it'll "just" be Grammar that needs updating. :-)
16:26 jnthn Then triage.
16:27 kensanata left #perl6
16:27 jnthn At the same time, I do want to get the Parrot implementation pushed along a decent bit because I'd like to try and reach the half-way point on my grant by the end of next month.
16:28 pmichaud okay
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16:43 pmichaud afk, lunch
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16:52 colomon is-prime appears to be really slow.  :|
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16:55 moritz_ we need a hash cache
16:55 moritz_ or binary search within @primes
16:57 colomon actually, I don't think either of those will work in this case
16:57 colomon in particular, is-prime(514229) takes 7 seconds on my MBP
16:57 colomon and that's with @primes primed up to 541
16:58 moritz_ so, what do we do? miller rabin test?
16:58 colomon it's next-prime that's the culprit, I think.
16:59 colomon is-prime(317811) is under a second (including rakudo startup time)
16:59 moritz_ it would be much more efficient if is-prime checked only the reified parts of @primes, and above that used all odd numbers
17:00 colomon moritz_: yes
17:00 colomon good point
17:00 colomon rakudo: say 514229.sqrt
17:00 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«717.097622363929␤»
17:01 moritz_ rakudo: say 317811.sqrt
17:01 p6eval rakudo d35769: OUTPUT«563.747283807204␤»
17:01 moritz_ so is-prime(317811) relies nearly only on reified values, thus it's fast
17:01 colomon yes
17:02 colomon I've just run a simpler test, and effectively all the time is spent generating the primes from 541 to 717.
17:03 moritz_ until there's an API to get the reified values, &next-prime could store the highest value it generated in an outer lexical
17:03 moritz_ and is-prime() then stops accessing @primes for any values higher than that
17:03 colomon true.
17:03 colomon but I want to make next-prime fast.  ;)
17:05 * moritz_ has an idea
17:05 colomon me too
17:06 colomon and mine isn't cheating in any way, and gets 4x speed up in this case. :)
17:06 moritz_ last if $_ > $i.sqrt
17:06 moritz_ (even better: cache $i.sqrt)
17:06 colomon moritz_: except you need to hoist $i.sqrt out of the loop
17:06 moritz_ right
17:06 colomon yeah, that's a very noticeable improvement
17:07 moritz_ ship it! ship it!
17:07 colomon I'm also thinking that the *@primes thing probably sucks, too
17:07 colomon sucks time, I mean.
17:07 colomon so maybe keeping a separate array of current primes would be a good thing.
17:07 moritz_ why separate?
17:08 moritz_ just declare @primes before next-prime
17:08 colomon ummm.....
17:08 moritz_ and then re-use it next-prime
17:08 colomon that sort of thing always hurts my head.
17:08 colomon but let me see.
17:08 colomon (first, spectest on latest changes)
17:09 moritz_ well, you'd have to make sure not iterate over the reified part of @primes in &next-prime, otherwise you'll get infinite recursion
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17:25 colomon huh.  attempt to use @primes in next-prime passes tests, but has no speed up
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18:34 sorear good * #perl6
18:34 PerlJam greets sorear
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19:50 sorear niecza: say (1 < 3 > 2)
19:50 p6eval niecza 4f60774: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
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19:57 pmichaud I'll be a few minutes late for phone.
19:57 sorear (I am amazed at how long my CHAIN has been horribly broken(
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19:58 * sorear wants to see minutes again, should I pester chromatic at the nest #ps?
19:59 PerlJam someone should just record the phone conversation and "outsource" transcription.
20:00 PerlJam (take the pressure off of chromatic)
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20:06 dukeleto PerlJam++
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20:21 dalek niecza/master: 9d541a8 | sorear++ | / (5 files):
20:21 dalek niecza/master: Implement !op, fix CHAIN
20:21 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/9d541a8e0f33d146a12b5368c8c4e91c02622382
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21:13 jnthn std: { our $x = 42; }; UNIT::<$x>
21:13 p6eval std :  ( no output )
21:13 jnthn std: 42
21:13 p6eval std :  ( no output )
21:13 jnthn :-(
21:13 diakopter ?
21:14 diakopter oh, p6eval std is broken
21:14 sorear p6eval niecza and nqp were broken yesterday
21:15 diakopter huge thanks to moritz_, who has done most (all?) of the work to move p6eval to a newer/faster vps for me... I wish I could offer more time to help him
21:17 cognominal left #perl6
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21:19 moritz_ sorear: std fails to build on the new machine
21:19 moritz_ niecza: say "test"
21:19 p6eval niecza 4f60774: OUTPUT«test␤»
21:19 diakopter newer/faster/cheaper, I should say
21:19 diakopter moritz_: I can take a look at std build fail now...
21:19 * diakopter pm moritz_
21:20 cognominal joined #perl6
21:21 moritz_ I suspect it's related to STD.pm being installed via CPAN
21:22 diakopter oh
21:22 diakopter hm
21:22 moritz_ diakopter: maybe we should install a separate perl for running STD.pm
21:23 diakopter sounds like a good idea
21:23 * moritz_ runs cpanm App::perlbrew
21:23 * diakopter logs out :)
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21:50 moritz_ perlbrew-- # setting PATH to :
21:51 sorear What if Cursor and Match had a common superclass?
21:51 moritz_ Capture?
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22:00 moritz_ http://github.com/gugod/App-perlbrew/issues/issue/20 # the reason why I didn't get std to work yet
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22:39 diakopter moritz_: a reply
22:39 diakopter to your perlbrew bug
22:39 diakopter was posted.
22:46 dalek 6model: c5c71cc | jnthn++ | dotnet/runtime/Runtime/Ops.cs:
22:46 dalek 6model: [dotnet] type_object_for op should take an object and unbox it, not a low-level string.
22:46 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/c5c71cc8cf793b5087096f9e8b6eee40cf01ff92
22:46 dalek 6model: 4772c46 | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/Actions.pm:
22:46 dalek 6model: Start trying to get our lexical vs package lookup story straighter.
22:46 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/4772c46ce3d676e649a13ddb5ac9b39ee2f747dd
22:46 dalek 6model: 8948ea1 | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/ (2 files):
22:46 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Support ::Foo := ... style declarations for putting bareword names into the lexpad.
22:46 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/8948ea108ef0458d6cb552815ae5cc62ebc5f9fd
22:46 dalek 6model: 4f3c7e0 | jnthn++ | common/NQP/NQPSetting.pm:
22:46 dalek 6model: [common] Set up a GLOBAL.
22:46 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/4f3c7e01322172955fcb21c4e7a41266175eb687
22:47 dalek 6model: aa3298f | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
22:47 dalek 6model: [dotnet] First incomplete cut at handling package scoped stuff.
22:47 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/aa3298f570f83d88ea48fb3824511d2675898244
22:47 dalek 6model: 606ccdc | jnthn++ | t/nqp/09-var.t:
22:47 dalek 6model: We now pass 09-var.t.
22:47 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/606ccdc78d3d757b46e5d1ce873c001abf44f556
22:47 diakopter heh
22:50 sorear jnthn: ping
22:50 jnthn sorear: pong
22:52 sorear I tried to make my ::Foo := ... work in niecza but ran into insurmountable problems
22:52 sorear essentially, the RHS needs to run at BEGIN time in order for construction of the later parts of the metamodel to work
22:52 sorear if you want to do class Bar is Foo
22:52 sorear how are you dealing with this?
22:53 jnthn Everything that comes up to that point is lexically scoped.
22:53 jnthn I'm not using ::Foo for class construction though
22:54 jnthn And I'm not sure ::GLOBAL := NQPHash.new is going to last either. :-)
22:54 jnthn It works for the time being though.
22:54 jnthn I don't see why it has to run at BEGIN time, anyway.
22:55 jnthn (:= that is)
22:55 sorear only if you want to use it at BEGIN time
22:55 jnthn (Of course, we need a stash at compile time really.)
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22:56 sorear ::True := ... would be fine, ::GLOBAL := would not be... but I see you're on the same line, so nm
22:56 rblackwe joined #perl6
22:56 jnthn Right, I don't expect that to last.
23:00 dalek niecza/master: 031179f | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
23:00 dalek niecza/master: Move v6/STD.pm6 to new $<foo>={1} syntax
23:00 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/031179faac4cae35c9758e73c1369669e0bd2303
23:00 dalek niecza/master: eb27fd4 | sorear++ | v6/STD.pm6:
23:00 dalek niecza/master: Fix syntax errors in v6/STD.pm6
23:00 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/eb27fd459061e1b8524e66e7eff552ae06ae8ff5
23:00 dalek niecza/master: 6344d14 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
23:00 dalek niecza/master: Implement Match.hash and Match.list
23:00 dalek niecza/master: review: http://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/6344d14699d722a95bc656a4a921af65b5601053
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23:08 dalek 6model: 9dcc5ed | jnthn++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
23:08 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Fix a $*BIND_CONTEXT leakage that could cause an...entertaining...constants table to be built.
23:08 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/9dcc5ed9e427d7cbfafd8f0c442c68aed89a319f
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23:24 dalek 6model: 0c0d5df | jnthn++ | dotnet/runtime/Runtime/Signatures/SignatureBinder.cs:
23:24 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Fix a thinko in the signature binder that made optional parameters not work out so optional.
23:24 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/0c0d5dfbc7b8fc420f143bf42a26f07a0d553558
23:24 dalek 6model: aa37f0f | jnthn++ | t/nqp/22-optional-args.t:
23:24 dalek 6model: [dotnet] We now pass 22-optional-args.t.
23:24 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/aa37f0f70bc538b90eb6ab3f27840e849294e4af
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23:29 dalek 6model: 7e9d2b8 | jnthn++ | common/NQP/NQPSetting.pm:
23:29 dalek 6model: [common] $diag arg of ok should be optional.
23:29 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/7e9d2b8dfdb306c1aa3e3035622ca7213d6fa813
23:29 dalek 6model: 1fea9b0 | jnthn++ | t/nqp/16-ternary.t:
23:29 dalek 6model: Now passing 16-ternary.t.
23:29 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/1fea9b0c6f1529f46db53eacea8d0346bdd45a0e
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23:33 jnthn Need for loops to kinda work and return statements to get rather closer to ClassHOW working.
23:34 s1n left #perl6
23:34 * jnthn will be happy to reach that point
23:40 nymacro left #perl6
23:42 * diakopter rather depressed by the last post on 6guts
23:44 jnthn diakopter: Well, trying to get a handle on what's wrong is a required first step to working out some solutions, and I think the post helps on that front.
23:45 jnthn But yes, it's...tricky.
23:46 * diakopter speechless, further.
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23:55 * jnthn confused by diakopter
23:55 jnthn Anyways, $dayjob in the morning...
23:55 * jnthn sleeps
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