Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-10-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:45 Tene what about wrapped blocks, too?
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01:21 sjohnson hi
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01:50 dalek 6model: 11dbee6 | mberends++ | dotnet/compiler/ (3 files):
01:50 dalek 6model: [dotnet/compiler] replace all var declarations with actual types
01:50 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/11dbee60fb59f51bb6b4db33d254e3c2e2f06ff3
01:51 mberends .oO( insomnia can be useful at times :)
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03:16 dalek 6model: 4ad79dd | mberends++ | dotnet/compiler/ (2 files):
03:16 dalek 6model: [dotnet/compiler] move most Ops method return type definitions from DNST2CSharp.pm upstream to PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm
03:16 dalek 6model: review: http://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/4ad79dd1f832d0aa01381285b47c7c22cba36d4f
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04:41 Seahawk56 Im new to this. Any advice?
04:43 Seahawk56 Anyone?
04:43 tylercurtis Seahawk56: About what do you seek advice?
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04:44 Seahawk56 Yes
04:46 Seahawk56 Not sure how to use Chatrooms or what I' looking for.
04:48 tylercurtis Are you looking to discuss or learn about Perl 6?
04:49 Seahawk56 learn
04:49 tylercurtis Then this is a great place to be. Are you familiar with any other programming languages?
04:50 Seahawk56 No
04:53 plobsing have you downloaded perl6 yet?
04:53 Seahawk56 thanks anyway and for your interest
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04:54 florz this bot still needs some improvements ;-)
04:54 TimToady what I was thinking... :)
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07:19 cxreg diakopter: hard to trade in a market with no going rates, eh?
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07:26 diakopter cxreg: to the contrary, I've bought hundreds of thousands at that price over the past few days
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07:27 diakopter you just gotta watch the listings and assume that most of the orders that disappear are filled
07:28 diakopter cxreg: but yes the market-maker has great advantages. and it would be much better if essentia were able to be offered in those trades.
07:28 diakopter much easier for prices to arise.
07:31 sorear diakopter: have you seen my little STD exe? ;)
07:32 diakopter I read about it
07:32 diakopter tryfile.exe ?
07:32 sorear yes
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07:34 sorear The biggest thing I need to make that work (as, for instance, p6eval's std:) is a way to save lexpads
07:34 diakopter sorear: should I try it on a Nehalem 3.33Ghz tomorrow at work?
07:34 sorear which means I need filesystem access, and a serialization framework, and it won't be standalone anymore :/
07:34 sorear since it'll need a CORE.syml
07:35 sorear and I don't see a sane way to make it use resources
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07:38 * diakopter idly wonders how fast niecza will build on the "beefy"
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07:45 * sorear wonders how much faster a Nehalem 3.33 is than a Northwood 2.00
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08:06 sjohnson hi!
08:07 sorear HI!
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08:20 sorear diakopter: rebuilding niecza's setting and running the test suite takes 2:30 on this backwater box (Wikipedia says my processor was released in Jan 02)
08:20 sorear diakopter: so I don't think *that* will be a problem
08:20 sorear diakopter: unless you're talking about the compiler proper, which builds in 5 seconds (the Perl 5 compiler has to be fast, since it has no way to save object code)
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08:27 sjohnson sorear: hows perl6 life going
08:29 sorear perl6 life!?
08:35 sorear perl6 life will have to take a back seat to real life
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08:39 sjohnson perl6 will enrich other people's lives though
08:40 sjohnson seems like it might be worth the cost
08:42 sorear If I pass classes, I might graduate.  If I graduate, I might get a better job.  If I have a better job, I won't have to work as many hours to pay for food.  And I'll have more for Perl 6.
08:42 sorear A small sacrifice now.
08:44 sjohnson you seem to be one of the big players for perl 6, you'll be fine
08:44 sjohnson no need to worry about food on the table
08:44 sorear Me?  A big player?
08:44 sorear Seriously?
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08:47 Tene sorear: you mentioned hardware difficulties with audio or video conferencing.  Is your development notably constrained by your available hardware?
08:48 Tene sorear: You're definitely one of the notable names in my book, fwiw.
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08:51 sjohnson yeah, you have nothing to worry about
08:52 Tene sjohnson: I wouldn't say that.  It's definitely not clear that perl 6 notability will translate into money.
08:53 sorear How many times have you heard jnthn say "afk, $dayjob"?
08:53 Tene I've had far more employment success come out of screwing around on IRC than from working on perl six. :)
08:53 sjohnson i don't really mean that, i just mean the knowledge of the internals of p6 that baffle me seem clear to him.  if i can make a living doing my modest p5 work, he should have no problem
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08:54 Tene Eh, I wouldn't say "no problem".  Employment and financial issues don't just disappear at a certain level of compiler knowledge, afaict.
08:55 sorear I rather suspect that my inability to work with pmichaud reflects underlying issues that will bite me when I need to join a company
08:56 sjohnson being articulate and p6 knowledge should do well for him
08:56 sjohnson with charisma, i think most anything is possible
08:56 sorear Perl 6 is a toy language for the forseeable future.
08:56 sorear It's not going to get me a job.
08:58 * sorear out.
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09:11 sjohnson sorear: if you think perl 6 was going to get you a job, that wasn't at all what i meant.
09:11 sjohnson i mean, if you thought that's what i meant
09:12 sjohnson i'll leave it as an exercise to you to figure out what i really meant
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10:43 tadzik o/
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11:15 araujo http://pastie.org/1250042
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11:27 tadzik "fun fact"
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11:31 araujo hehe
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11:42 masak oh hai, #perl6!
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11:44 araujo hi masak :)
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12:00 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
12:01 masak morning, pmichaud.
12:05 pmichaud (star release)  I had planned to do that last night, but we had a surprise visit from relatives.  It's on my morning agenda.
12:06 colomon o/
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12:07 takadonet morning all
12:08 araujo http://pastie.org/1250042
12:16 pmichaud afk, kid deliveries
12:19 masak sorear: [backlog] why should stringifying a Block need to be good for 'serializing closures'? that feels like two quite different things.
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12:25 masak araujo: is that (non-Reverse) Polish Notation I see? http://pastie.org/1250042
12:25 araujo masak,
12:25 araujo yes
12:26 masak araujo: sometimes "do..end", sometimes "do..done". eww :(
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12:27 araujo masak, I am trying to find a keyword actually
12:27 masak also, what about | :num | with pipes on both sides but :x | with only a pipe on one side?
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12:27 araujo masak, you can use any style
12:27 araujo you can even omit the | if oyu want
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12:27 masak ah. the latter style is hard to read for me.
12:28 masak do I guess correctly that unary minus is distinguished by (lack of) whitespace?
12:28 araujo masak, about the keyword, I am trying to find a name that could probably be used as an "end" ... but that doesn't make too much noise, so far I only found done ....
12:28 masak suggestion: "end" :)
12:28 araujo yes masak
12:29 masak just not both "done" and "end" :(
12:29 masak if you're using Polish Notation, are the parentheses really needed for the if statements?
12:30 araujo yeah, I know what you mean ... I have not implemented the 'done' ... it was just an idea :P
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12:30 araujo masak, they are ....
12:30 masak and this is just feedback :P
12:30 araujo because I made the 'if' a little bit special ... allowing several conditionals
12:30 araujo of course! :D
12:31 masak even there, I was surprised that you didn't go with an 'else if' or 'elsif' keyword...
12:31 araujo well .. because .. what you see there .. actually translates to this form:
12:32 araujo if (cond0) { ..... } (cond1) { .... } ..... else { }
12:32 masak "translates to"? seems to me it is of that form already.
12:34 araujo ^{ :num | if (< num 0) { -1 } (= num 0) { 0 } else { 1 } } 982.8
12:34 araujo you can actually write like that
12:34 masak sure.
12:34 masak in Perl 6 too.
12:34 araujo well, when I said "translate" .. I actually meant that the do/end kwyrods are actually replaced by '{ }'
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12:34 araujo they are just other names
12:35 masak rakudo: say { if $^num < 0 { -1 } elsif $num == 0 { 0 } else { 1 } }($_) for -5, 0, 42
12:35 p6eval rakudo bc6c6d: OUTPUT«-1␤0␤1␤»
12:36 araujo print for [ -5 0 42 ] { :num | if (< num 0) { -1 } (= num 0) { 0 } else { 1 } }
12:36 araujo that would be in koan
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12:38 araujo though I am thinking to turn if <expr> ... to an if <block>
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13:22 masak http://twitter.com/farlerdm/status/28888468542
13:22 * masak is tempted to write "It's a butterfly!!! o/"
13:25 takadonet masak: what's stopping u?
13:26 masak takadonet: http://twitter.com/carlmasak/status/28889526198
13:27 masak basically the same thing, but with fewer exclamation marks, and with more feigned innocent sincerity.
13:27 takadonet nice
13:28 masak "The Internet treats sarcasm as damage and routes around it." So it's best not to design things with sarcasm in the first place.
13:29 huf_ i think eventually we'll find a sign for it just like we have one for questions
13:30 masak ya think¿¡
13:30 masak :)
13:30 huf_ :)
13:30 flussence there's an "irony mark" already, apparently...
13:30 huf_ well, we'd need one that exists on current english keyboards...
13:30 masak it's very pretty¿¡ and suitable for the occasion¿¡
13:30 masak plus, it's on everyone's keyboard already¿¡
13:31 huf_ yes but it's very uncomfortable to type from behind the monitor
13:31 masak :)
13:31 masak lots of walking back and forth.
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13:41 drbean The butterfly is the butterfly that 莊子 dreamed he was.
13:41 masak or was it the other way around? :P
13:45 masak (here's the reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuangzi#The_butterfly_dream )
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13:47 masak wow, I've found Google Translate's big weakness. it's called Classical Chinese. :)
13:47 masak maybe I shouldn't be surprised about that.
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13:49 masak Classical Chinese: the ultimate compression algorithm. afterwards, if it's not small enough, you can always run it through a second time. :)
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13:53 takadonet is this working as speced?
13:53 takadonet rakudo: for ( < a a > ) -> $x is rw { $x ~~ s:g/a/b/; say $x;}
13:53 p6eval rakudo bc6c6d: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/S2l1z4M4_9␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
13:53 Trashlord ha, that makes me think
13:54 Trashlord if I take some big file (~100MB), compress it, then compress it again, and again, and again, could I eventually hit something like 1MB?
13:54 Trashlord in theory
13:54 sbp nope
13:54 PerlJam no
13:54 Trashlord I'd never actually do it for real
13:55 sbp probably because of something to do with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle
13:55 PerlJam Well, you can do that if "compression" actually destroys information.  But typically the idea is to find a minimal representation without destroying information.
13:55 PerlJam :-)
13:55 sbp the first thing we do is, kill all the vowels
13:56 Trashlord hm, yeah, I didn't consider that
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14:01 * masak submits rakudobug
14:01 takadonet nuts
14:01 masak takadonet: any chance you could golf that to something a bit shorter?
14:01 masak rakudo: for 'a' -> $x is rw { $x ~~ s:g/a/b/ }
14:01 p6eval rakudo bc6c6d: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/2sNZcwyijV␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
14:02 masak oh wait!
14:02 masak it's not a bug at all, of course.
14:02 masak the 'a' is what's constant here.
14:02 masak nothing to see here, move along.
14:02 masak if you do 'is copy', it should work.
14:03 masak (or sit back and think about what you really want to accomplish.)
14:03 takadonet rakudo: for 'a' -> $x is copy{ $x ~~ s:g/a/b/ }
14:03 p6eval rakudo bc6c6d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing block at line 22, near "-> $x is c"␤»
14:04 takadonet rakudo: for 'a' -> $x is copy { $x ~~ s:g/a/b/ }
14:04 p6eval rakudo bc6c6d:  ( no output )
14:04 takadonet rakudo: for 'a' -> $x is copy { $x ~~ s:g/a/b/ ; say $x}
14:04 p6eval rakudo bc6c6d: OUTPUT«b␤»
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14:06 masak I could submit and LTA ticket, I guess. the "in '&infix:<=>'" part of the error message is mighty confusing.
14:07 takadonet little
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14:09 tadzik \o
14:10 masak o/
14:10 colomon \o/
14:14 sbp |o_
14:14 sbp _o/
14:14 sbp I'm hoping that spelled perl6 in semaphore
14:16 colomon sbp++
14:17 PerlJam http://www.plat-forms.org/   Assuming they do this again in 4 or so years, it would be nice to have a perl 6 team.
14:18 colomon What's the matter with next years contest?
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14:20 PerlJam I'm not sure Perl 6 is ready for it.  It would be great if there were a Perl 6 team that could put forth a good showing though.
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14:22 PerlJam But it could backfire.  The two possible extreme outcomes are "Wow! Perl 6 really *is* useable!"  and "See? Perl 6 is totally useless!  You can't even build a simple web app with it!"
14:23 masak nod.
14:23 PerlJam And naysayers always seem to have a louder voice.  :(
14:23 masak still, it's a nice goal to have in mind.
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14:45 masak oh, and it's *because* naysayers always seem to have a louder voice that it's worth building unquestionably praiseworthy apps with Perl 6. :)
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14:47 Trashlord masak: would you say I could do everything that I do in Perl 5, with Perl 6?
14:48 Trashlord I mean, any program that I could conceive, any problem I need to solve right now, which I could solve in Perl 5
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14:48 PerlJam Trashlord: you just invoked Turing, so the answer is, of course, yes :)
14:49 Trashlord well, sure, technically
14:49 Trashlord but if I need some module which doesn't exist, I'd have to write it myself
14:49 PerlJam Trashlord: some problems will be harder to solve in Perl 6 because the implementations aren't as mature.
14:49 Trashlord that's more of what I meant
14:49 Trashlord yes
14:50 takadonet Trashlord: I'm working on that part. Porting some of the most used modules over
14:50 PerlJam takadonet++
14:50 takadonet here is a good list of the mosted used modules: http://ali.as/top100/
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14:51 Trashlord what if I wanted to also contribute by porting modules, can I just do it out of the top of my head, or do I have to pass some sort of test?
14:51 takadonet The volatile list is what I will be using in determining what I;m porting next.
14:51 takadonet Trashlord: Top of your head and put it on github
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14:52 Trashlord ah, cool
14:52 takadonet also add it to the perl 6 module list .... anyone have the url?
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14:52 PerlJam though it would be nice if the test suite for the Perl 5 module could be reused for the Perl 6 version.
14:53 PerlJam takadonet: http://github.com/perl6/ecosystem
14:53 takadonet PerlJam: thanks! gtg meeting time
14:54 masak Trashlord: what PerlJam said about Turing. but of course, since Perl 6 doesn't have CPAN, it'll always be at a disadvantage. or should I say "until Perl 6 has CPAN..."?
14:55 masak maybe we should have a "Porting Modules Program" for people who want to help.
14:55 PerlJam masak: +1
14:56 PerlJam moritz_: Are you listening?  Sounds like a good challenge :)
14:56 tadzik that's what I thought :)
14:56 PerlJam a good series of challenges even
14:57 masak maybe there needs to be a page. porting.perl6.org or something.
14:57 * masak just hopes that the "Perl 5 and Perl 6 together in the same runloop" dream doesn't die if such an effort takes root
14:58 colomon +1
15:01 Trashlord well, that's really cool. first I'll need to learn to code in Perl 6, though ;)
15:01 Trashlord I imagine it wouldn't be too different from Perl 5
15:02 PerlJam Trashlord: you suffer a lack of imagination  :)
15:02 Trashlord depends on the topic ;p
15:03 masak the topic is Perl 6. see /topic :)
15:03 Trashlord oh, right
15:03 Trashlord I didn't notice that
15:03 masak channel name is another tip-off :P
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15:29 masak Ovid++ # http://blogs.perl.org/users/ovid/2010/10/perl101-finding-words-in-words.html
15:29 masak maybe someone'd like to provide a Perl 6 port of that script?
15:30 masak should be a relatively straightforward task. might take a while for it to run, though.
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15:57 PerlJam http://forums.pragprog.com/forums/190/topics/7207
15:59 masak I will do that, in a way. I'm doing another blog-every-day thing this November.
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16:02 lilvixenxoxo hey :)
16:04 masak hi, lilvixenxoxo
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16:06 masak bye, lilvixenxoxo
16:07 mkramer haha
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17:00 takadonet rakudo: my $a='adf'; say $a.graphs
17:00 p6eval rakudo bc6c6d: OUTPUT«Method 'graphs' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/E5JSGam_fK␤»
17:00 takadonet bug?
17:01 TimToady nyi
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17:02 takadonet TimToady: so what is the work around for now?
17:03 TimToady .chars works as long as you don't use modifier characters
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17:03 TimToady rakudo: my $a = 'adf'; say $a.chars
17:03 p6eval rakudo bc6c6d: OUTPUT«3␤»
17:04 TimToady rakudo: my $a = 'adf' ~ "\x0301"; say $a.chars
17:05 p6eval rakudo bc6c6d: OUTPUT«4␤»
17:05 TimToady that should be 3
17:05 TimToady if we really were doing graphemes
17:05 TimToady rakudo: my $a = 'adf' ~ "\x0301"; say $a
17:05 p6eval rakudo bc6c6d: OUTPUT«adf́␤»
17:05 TimToady rakudo: my $a = 'foo' ~ "\x0301"; say $a
17:05 p6eval rakudo bc6c6d: OUTPUT«foó␤»
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17:06 takadonet TimToady: thanks
17:07 IllvilJa left #perl6
17:07 takadonet TimToady: also I really enjoyed your perl 6 talk at  YAPC:Asia
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17:14 nwellnhof I have some patches to Rakudo that fix some Parrot deprecations. What's the best way to get them into trunk?
17:15 nwellnhof Submit them to rakudobug@perl.org?
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17:18 takadonet nwellnhof: that is one way to do it yes
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17:19 takadonet nwellnhof:I'm not sure what is the best way. Might want to ask someone else with more knowledge then me
17:20 nwellnhof takadonet: OK, thanks.
17:21 colomon nwellnhof: do you have them as git patches?
17:22 nwellnhof colomon: Yes, created with git format-patch
17:23 colomon Cc me a copy when you make them to rakudobug, and I'll see if I can squeeze in spectesting them in between being climbed on by a two-year-old singing "Matty Groves".
17:24 nwellnhof What's your email address?
17:24 colomon irc nick @gmail.com
17:25 jedai joined #perl6
17:27 nwellnhof OK, email sent
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18:10 colomon nwellnhof: trying to compile your changes now.
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18:54 takadonet man porting this module is a lot harder then i thought
18:56 PerlJam takadonet: which module?
18:56 takadonet PerlJam: Finished Text::Tabs and working on Text::wraps
18:56 takadonet http://search.cpan.org/dist/Text-Tabs+Wrap/
18:57 colomon takadonet++
18:57 takadonet still making progress and it's forces me to really understand regex in Perl 5 and 6
19:00 PerlJam takadonet: excellent!  Once you do that, you'll be ready to port a more interesting module like: http://search.cpan.org/dist/Text-Autoformat/   :-)
19:01 PerlJam takadonet++
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19:01 nymacro_ is now known as nymacro
19:02 takadonet meeting
19:02 takadonet bbl
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19:09 dalek nqp-rx/master: d2d1682 | pmichaud++ | src/cheats/hll-compiler.pir:
19:09 dalek nqp-rx/master: From Nick Wellnhofer <wellnhofer@aevum.de>: Remove deprecated charset ops
19:09 dalek nqp-rx/master: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/d2d1682d49e9091adfe98dba3cecd3491263d793
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19:34 colomon nwellnhof: pushed your changes.  cheers!
19:34 ggoebel left #perl6
19:34 nwellnhof colomon++ # thanks a lot
19:35 dalek rakudo: 3804f4f | nwellnhof++ | src/ops/perl6.ops:
19:35 dalek rakudo: Replace string_ord with Parrot_str_indexed
19:35 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3804f4f58c60552cc3daa17e63387fd408474337
19:35 dalek rakudo: 2da9645 | nwellnhof++ | src/core/Str.pm:
19:35 dalek rakudo: Don't use deprecated charset opcodes
19:35 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2da9645f016e20c4828755fb85a2ab6babd2e74c
19:35 dalek rakudo: 4288f53 | nwellnhof++ | src/ (3 files):
19:35 dalek rakudo: Switch to utf8:"" PIR string literals
19:35 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4288f53314c243b4d02b16fc91291e4bbacf9a17
19:35 dalek rakudo: ead429f | nwellnhof++ | src/Perl6/Module/Locator.pm:
19:35 dalek rakudo: Use UTF-8 encoding in get_module_info
19:35 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ead429f57d11e72a4f351ca214fcb16988a5dd2e
19:35 colomon takadonet, PerlJam: just wrote Damian++ to see if he had already ported Text::Autoformat
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19:49 tadzik is Damian likely to have ported some modules without saying a word?
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19:55 takadonet tadzik: maybe
19:57 dalek nqp-rx/master: 56b142f | pmichaud++ | src/stage0/ (3 files):
19:57 dalek nqp-rx/master: Update bootstrap files.
19:57 dalek nqp-rx/master: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/56b142f59e5a39e715569781b2571fd8078633e4
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20:06 colomon tadzik: Damian's ported / rewritten a number of modules.  he listed them (or some of them?) in a talk at YAPC::NA.
20:07 colomon In addition to asking him if he'd ported Text::Autoformat, I asked him if we could get the full list of ports he's done.  ;)
20:07 tadzik :)
20:07 tadzik The question remains, whether his Perl6 modules will be working in Rakudo :)
20:08 colomon well, I tried to point out that if got in the modules.perl6.org framework, we'd have automatic testing on that question.  :)
20:08 tadzik (emmentaller is not working, but shshsh)
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20:22 takadonet going home &
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20:46 muixirt hi, will the --doc switch be implemented in rakudo or will be (or is) a separate program?
20:47 tadzik what do you mean, --doc?
20:48 flussence tadzik: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S19.html
20:48 flussence 75% down the page
20:49 tadzik oh nice
20:49 muixirt tad with --doc perl6 doesn't execute the program but shows documentation (like perldoc)
20:51 tadzik I see
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20:56 pmichaud tadzik: I'm guessing --doc will load+run a specialized setting (module)
20:57 tadzik muixirt: ↑
20:57 pmichaud (oops, sent to wrong nick)
20:57 tadzik np :)
20:57 muixirt got it
20:58 muixirt pmichaud: anyone working on that?
20:58 pmichaud muixirt: not actively that I know of
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21:04 masak muixirt: I plan to submit a grant for that. just need to clear some old grant baggage before I do.
21:05 masak I have a grant draft somewhere if you're interested in those plans.
21:05 tadzik hello, The One Who Hears
21:06 muixirt masak: nice (time horizon?)
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21:06 masak muixirt: good question. I planned to have $OLD_GRANT done long ago, but it seems I haven't managed to pull myself together to finish it.
21:07 masak that's the only real unknown. after that, it's a simple thing to put together the grant request, submit it, (hopefully) get it accepted, and start working on it.
21:07 masak I reckon it'll be about two months of work, in clock time.
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21:09 masak I don't like the proposal at http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/2010/10/msg34294.html -- I don't see an immediate need for the feature, and it'll complicate the core language. I agree that the idea is a bit neat, and sorta-kinda rhymes with the way routines work... but beyond that I simply don't want it.
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21:10 tadzik this feature seams a bit confusing to me
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21:12 pmichaud gitorious.org is down for me... down for anyone else?
21:13 masak "It's not just you!" -- http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/gitorious.com
21:13 masak er. ".org".
21:13 masak still not just you :)
21:17 flussence that "multi vars" sounds too scary - I can barely get my head around junctions.
21:18 masak right. it's a matter of someone implementing it, too.
21:19 tadzik for me, it sounds a bit like a feature only spectests will know we are missing
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21:19 masak for each cool new extra core feature, the load gets a little heavier, and Christmas moves a bit further away.
21:19 masak we need to get back to thinking about what's important for Perl 6.
21:20 tadzik ah, this is a proposed feature, or alredy speced?
21:21 masak proposed.
21:21 masak it's p6l :)
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21:22 tadzik oh coo
21:22 tadzik .append(l)
21:23 masak when I found this page: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/architecture.html
21:23 masak I first thought, "my, that's an archaic page".
21:23 masak but then I started looking at it, and realized that it's a very clear and succinct statement of the "core goal" of Perl 6. and (as far as I know) it still holds.
21:24 masak this is what we're working to realize.
21:26 muixirt Parser -> Code generator -> machine code would be better :-)
21:27 tadzik well, it'd be Bytecode → Jit → Machine Code anyway
21:27 masak please elaborate.
21:27 masak I don't think "better" does the complexity of things justice here.
21:30 muixirt well a bytecode interpreter and bytecode optimizer and a jit are more complex than generating machine code (even if that machine code is lousy and bloated)
21:34 * muixirt hates bytecode nowadays
21:34 tadzik why so?
21:34 ggoebel left #perl6
21:35 muixirt it's a dead end
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21:36 muixirt it's a superfluous step
21:37 tadzik oh, I very doubt it, observing the world nowadays
21:37 tadzik even at the low level: look at llvm
21:38 flussence bytecode may be superfluous, but I'd rather install a runtime than an entire OS to run someone else's software
21:39 tadzik zzz time, see you folks
21:39 colomon o/
21:39 tadzik left #perl6
21:39 Tene muixirt: The semantics of Perl 6 execution (and many other modern languages) are sufficiently complex that generated machine code would basically have to implement a VM anyway.
21:40 muixirt linux distros have no problem with supporting several cpus and architectures
21:40 flussence yes, but I'd have to install an entire OS in a 32-bit chroot just to use wine :)
21:41 Tene flussence: Eh?  What distro are you using?  Sane distros allow parallel installation of 64bit and 32bit libs.
21:41 masak` is now known as masak
21:41 flussence I went with the lib64-only-even-though-I-have-virtually-infinite-resources option
21:42 Tene So, it's not that you "have to install", but that you voluntarily choose to do it the more-awkward way? ;)
21:42 flussence pretty much yeah :)
21:42 Tene :)
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21:44 flussence I was trying to think of an excuse for it, but it seems I just like doing things the hard way...
21:45 muixirt Tene: sorry I repeat myself, but look at V8, is there any evidence that this is possible fo javascript but not for perl6?
21:47 Tene muixirt: You're more than welcome to work on it if you'd like.  I'd recommend you look at jnthn's 6model work.  He's currently working on Parrot, JVM, and .Net backends, so you could certainly look at adding something you like better.
21:47 Tene muixirt: I'd be glad to discover that I'm wrong.
21:48 muixirt Tene: you caught me, I'm not qualified for such work
21:48 pmichaud the semantic gap between "code generator" and "machine code"  is likely too far to be bridged in a single step.
21:48 pmichaud s/far/wide/
21:49 Tene muixirt: I'm not all that familiar with v8.  I expect that the code generated basically implements a VM, but I haven't actually checked.
21:50 pmichaud ultimately there's likely to be at least one intermediate representation somewhere, and whatever it is, it can be considered a form of "bytecode".
21:50 Tene Exactly.
21:50 muixirt pmichaud: I don't get it, the code generator of your C compiler produces machine code, the V8 code generator produces machine code
21:51 flussence you can do anything with any language, given enough time and resources
21:51 pmichaud muixirt: sure, but C is semantically close to the machine
21:51 muixirt pmichaud: can you elaborate a bit on that swubject?
21:51 flussence V8 took the resources of Google for a well-known language though.
21:51 pmichaud I can't speak to V8 yet.
21:51 Tene muixirt: With C, you don't maintain much state or semantics that are separate from that of the machine you're executing on.
21:52 Tene muixirt: Higher-level languages have a much more complicated execution model though, for one example.
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21:53 Tene So you can't just use naive C stack frames, you instead have to do something like holding separate stack frame, lexpad, etc. structs somewhere else in memory, and have a separate bit of code that moves between them iteratively instead of recursively.
21:53 Tene You keep doing all that to represent the concepts not supported natively by the machine, and when you're done, you have a VM.
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21:55 masak ta-daa!
21:55 muixirt btw. I don't argue that it is simple, but compared to the huge difficulties implementing perl6 on a vm like parrot (or the jvm) it looks like an alternative
21:55 masak right. the VM is just the machinery required to play out the execution model.
21:56 Tene when the execution model is naively representable on the machine, you have a much easier time of it.
21:56 donaldh http://code.google.com/apis/v8/design.html
21:56 Tene x86 CPUs don't support continuations, coroutines, exceptions, etc.
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21:57 Tene and then you also have closures, dynamic variables, OUTER::, CALLER::, etc.
21:57 Tene The generated code to handle this ends up being a VM, and the generated representation of the instructions that this basic VM looks at is bytecode.
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21:59 masak all this talk of execution models makes me eager to hack on Yapsi.
21:59 muixirt masak: with a x86 assembler backend :-)
21:59 Tene It's kind of like greenspun's tenth rule.
22:00 masak muixirt: actually, a C backend has been sort of teasing my thoughts lately. or a C runtime. or both.
22:00 Tene Any implementation of a sufficiently complicated language will contain a VM implementation of some sort.
22:00 masak Tene: indeed
22:00 masak you forgot "badly" :)
22:00 masak and "partial".
22:00 Tene masak: Well, it doesn't have to be bad if you address it directly.
22:00 Tene Or partial.
22:01 masak right.
22:01 masak hence "kind of like" Greenspun's Tenth, I guess.
22:01 Tene If you plan up front to need to deal with a VM, you can use an existing VM, like the JVM, or you can implement your own explicitly, like Parrot.
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22:03 Tene muixirt: Having said all this, it *is* true that there is a lot of optimization potential here, and that's a big part of what Jonathan is working on these days.
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22:07 muixirt but existing VMs aren't a perfect fit for perl6 requirements
22:07 dnl left #perl6
22:07 masak true.
22:08 masak I'm not sure how much of a problem that'll be.
22:08 Tene masak: That was the original reason for Parrot, actually.
22:08 masak yeah.
22:08 Tene Existing VMs were a very poor fit at the time.  They're a bit better these days, but still a significant semantic gap.
22:09 masak I see some problems with specific things, such as exception handling/stack unrolling. that seems to be very VM-specific.
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22:09 muixirt Tene: well because of parrot rakudo ends up in a mix of pir, nqp, perl6 and C code (I admire everyone who masters that)
22:09 Tene I need to get working on that in Parrot for jnthn.
22:10 Tene muixirt: That's true.  I don't follow what you're trying to say about it, though.  Any compiler is going to use a variety of languages.
22:10 Tene muixirt: nqp is just a restricted subset of Perl 6.
22:10 pmichaud 2010.10 star release is blocked a bit on gitorious.org being down.  I'll work around if gitorious isn't back online in a few hours.
22:12 Tene muixirt: It's even going to get worse, btw.  jnthn is working on porting nqp to .net and jvm, so there will be some of those involved too.
22:12 takadonet joined #perl6
22:12 takadonet hey all
22:13 Tene takadonet!
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22:18 Tene muixirt: Have we answered your questions?  Was there anything we missed, or do you have any pending questions?
22:19 muixirt Tene: sort of :-) thanks
22:20 Tene muixirt: Glad to help.  This stuff is very interesting to many of us here.  I'm always glad to chat about this.
22:20 * muixirt is mumbling 'lorito'
22:20 icwiener_ left #perl6
22:21 Tene :)
22:21 Tene I've been meaning to get involved in the lorito work for a while, but haven't been able to get myself together.
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22:27 * cotto takes note
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22:51 dukeleto Tene: lorito is going to start ramping up soon. As soon as I have time to finish the git migration
22:51 takadonet dukeleto: lorito?
22:51 dukeleto takadonet: a refactoring of parrot internals to use LLVM
22:53 takadonet dukeleto: cool. Will that help with speed ? :)
22:53 dukeleto takadonet: just a tiny bit ;)
22:53 takadonet dukeleto: sweet
22:53 muixirt dukeleto: what does this mean for rakudo?
22:53 dukeleto takadonet: we need LLVM to implement a better JIT. We deleted our old JIT in 1.7.0
22:53 takadonet muixirt: free beer
22:53 muixirt takadonet: I'm in
22:53 takadonet muixirt: I heard that if you port a perl 5 module and put it on github... they give a case of 24 beers
22:56 muixirt takadonet: root beer I assume
22:57 takadonet muixirt: ..... sure if that's what it takes sure
22:57 Tene I'd buy beer for anyone who wants to exchange Perl 6 work for beer.
22:58 muixirt Tene: it did work for jnthn ?
22:58 cotto dukeleto, it's not just llvm, though we certainly hope that'll be one of the possibilities opened up
22:58 Tene muixirt: I've met jnthn once, and I've never bought beer for him.
23:00 * muixirt would only accept Rothaus Tannenzäpfle beer
23:01 dukeleto cotto: i know, i was simplifying :) Please feel free to describe all the gory details
23:06 cotto Sure.  Just let me figure out the details first. ;)
23:07 takadonet nuts!
23:08 takadonet this is going to make it little more complex : 'Only integers or '*' allowed as range quantifier endpoint at line 69'
23:10 Chat1964 joined #perl6
23:11 Chat1964 2hey
23:11 colomon takadonet: that's a perl 5 error message?
23:12 takadonet colomon: no perl6
23:12 takadonet Chat1964: hey
23:12 takadonet converting : $t =~ /\G([^\n]{0,$ll})($break|\n+|\z)/xmgc  to the perl6 regex
23:12 colomon takadonet: ... oh.  in a regex?
23:13 takadonet \G and \z do not exist anymore . \G is replace with :p and \z is completely gone ( '$' replaces it)
23:13 Chat1964 2takadonet: wats up??
23:13 takadonet Chat1964: coding u?
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