Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-11-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:35 colomon Util: still there?
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00:59 colomon Util: you've now got a commit bit for Math-Polynomial.  And I really think we should have Math-Quaterion too, hint, hint.  ;)
00:59 colomon Util++
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02:26 lue ololiblog: https://rdstar.wordpress.com/​2010/11/04/coming-back-ready/
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02:27 lue phenny: tell masak I've made a post that talks about the adventure game and Tardis: https://rdstar.wordpress.com/​2010/11/04/coming-back-ready/
02:27 phenny lue: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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03:03 Maerten somebody say something
03:04 Maerten :|
03:04 colomon something
03:04 Maerten woww
03:05 Maerten the first reaction on this stupid app
03:05 Maerten :p
03:05 Maerten are you using a blackberry??
03:06 colomon no, I'm a regular chatter on the perl 6 chat you have stumbled across.
03:06 colomon Another couple days of this and we will kill the person who wrote that app.
03:06 Maerten ok.. what is this perl 6 about??
03:06 colomon But you're welcome in the meantime.  :)
03:07 colomon It's a programming language.
03:07 colomon one which is still under heavy development.
03:07 Maerten ok ok
03:07 colomon this channel is primarily for discussing the various programs that implement the language, and designing the language itself.
03:08 Maerten okay
03:08 Maerten so this chat app just ruines the chatbox
03:08 colomon rakudo: say (1, 1, *+* ... * > 1000).perl
03:08 p6eval rakudo 142d22: OUTPUT«(1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987, 1597)␤»
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03:09 colomon it doesn't ruin it, but it does lead to regular visits from people who have no idea what we are talking about.  :)
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03:09 Maerten well excuse me for interrupting, good luck with the programming
03:09 colomon no worries, we know it's not your fault!
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05:24 sorear GOOD * #PERL6
05:25 lucs sorear: Every time you do that, I think "Good grief, Charlie Brown!" :)
05:44 sorear phenny: msg daxim The tool you are looking for is called dynamic programming.  the classical example for this is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change-making_problem
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05:48 sorear phenny?
05:48 sorear phenny: tell daxim The tool you are looking for is called dynamic programming.  the classical example for this is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change-making_problem
05:48 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when daxim is around.
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06:27 sorear phenny: tell masak You misspelled China and Kleisli in your blog.
06:27 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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07:37 masak good morning, #perl6!
07:37 phenny masak: 02:27Z <lue> tell masak I've made a post that talks about the adventure game and Tardis: https://rdstar.wordpress.com/​2010/11/04/coming-back-ready/
07:37 phenny masak: 06:27Z <sorear> tell masak You misspelled China and Kleisli in your blog.
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07:37 masak sorear: so I did. making another 7-minute run. :) thank you.
07:38 * masak backlogs
07:43 masak rakudo: my @a = 1,2; my @b = 3,4; (@a,@b) := @b,@a; say ~@a; say ~@b
07:43 p6eval rakudo 142d22: OUTPUT«1 2␤3 4␤»
07:43 * masak submits rakudobug
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07:44 masak <TimToady> looks like the bind has turned into a no-op somehow
07:45 masak rakudo: my $a = 42; my $b := $a; say $b
07:45 p6eval rakudo 142d22: OUTPUT«42␤»
07:45 sorear the := operator in Rakudo is implemented in a deliberately wrong way.  Be grateful if it works, don't complain too much if it doesn't
07:46 masak I'm not complaining; I'm submitting a rakudobug.
07:46 sorear implementing := correctly would require an extra layer of indirection on all variable references
07:46 masak yes.
07:46 masak I have a few blog posts about that.
07:48 masak huh; re-rendering all the HTML of my blog now takes 8m18.500s.
07:50 sorear If you put it on github or otherwise make it public I'll use it as an example of real world performance code
07:51 cxreg how about a layer of misdirection?
07:52 masak sorear: I will put it on github, soonish. but for it to be used as real-world performance code, one'd have to use a frozen dataset.
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07:53 masak lue++ # https://rdstar.wordpress.com/​2010/11/04/coming-back-ready/
07:55 masak hotel breakfast &
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07:55 cxreg i think i was the one who first suggested that the operators be the enemies ;)
07:55 cxreg its a wicked cool idea though
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08:08 sorear I am starting to dislike the implicit flattening in *@foo
08:09 sorear Flattening is something that only happens when a list is iterated
08:09 sorear sub flat(\|@parcel) { gather for @parcel { take $_ } }
08:13 sorear github-- # has taken to randomly logging me out.  It didn't do this at all for the first ~year
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08:24 sorear github++ # I take that back, deleting insecure sessions is nothing to complain about
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09:07 jnthn morning
09:07 sorear hello jnthn
09:07 * sorear has his tuits back finally
09:08 * moritz_ wonders if they are round
09:14 jnthn No such luck on tuits here. :(
09:14 jnthn Hopefully on Friday. Or at the weekend. :)
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09:57 * sorear removes code that turns out to have made absolutely no sense
10:02 jnthn If I did that at my $dayjob I think the codebase would get a million lines smaller...
10:04 moritz_ (writing negative code)++
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10:23 jnthn moritz_: The trickier issue is that the business world struggles to see the value in taking the time to do so.
10:32 sorear I just pushed a LHF document for Niecza
10:33 moritz_ enodalek?
10:33 sorear dalek failed to report my last two commits
10:33 moritz_ maybe because it's not in the channel at all?
10:33 sorear no, it was in the channel beforehand
10:34 sorear diakopter -HUP'd it
10:34 sorear after being silent
10:34 sorear and it didn't come back
10:34 sorear diakopter: moritz_: theory: dalek is having issues with the fact that github no longer supports HTTP
10:34 sorear all requests are automatically redirected to HTTPS now
10:35 sorear niecza: say 2+2
10:35 p6eval niecza 300b7e5: OUTPUT«error CS0040: Unexpected debug information initialization error `The assembly for default symbol writer cannot be loaded'␤Compilation failed: 1 error(s), 0 warnings␤"gmcs" unexpectedly returned exit value 1 at (eval 43) line 13␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/CompilerDriver.pm
10:35 p6eval ..line 254…
10:36 sorear I don't guarantee master will build; don't be afraid to branch off last week, which I tested before pushing
10:37 moritz_ if I can believe my logs, it did build
10:37 moritz_ niecza: say 1
10:37 p6eval niecza 22f630e: OUTPUT«error CS0040: Unexpected debug information initialization error `The assembly for default symbol writer cannot be loaded'␤Compilation failed: 1 error(s), 0 warnings␤"gmcs" unexpectedly returned exit value 1 at (eval 43) line 13␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/CompilerDriver.pm
10:37 p6eval ..line 254…
10:38 moritz_ just produces a run time error
10:38 sorear I guess some library isn't in the chroot
10:39 sorear I recently switched niecza to pass /debug to the C# compiler
10:39 moritz_ does that mean I need to install mono-dbg etc.?
10:40 moritz_ niecza: say 1
10:40 p6eval niecza 22f630e: OUTPUT«error CS0040: Unexpected debug information initialization error `The assembly for default symbol writer cannot be loaded'␤Compilation failed: 1 error(s), 0 warnings␤"gmcs" unexpectedly returned exit value 1 at (eval 43) line 13␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/CompilerDriver.pm
10:40 p6eval ..line 254…
10:41 sorear moritz_: possibly
10:41 sorear I hadn't realized it was an optional component
10:42 moritz_ sorear: do you use Debian (or a derivate thereof)?
10:42 sorear yes, but I have upstream mono
10:42 moritz_ hm
10:45 * moritz_ tries installing mono-complete
10:45 sorear libmono-2.0-cil?
10:46 sorear s/-//
10:46 moritz_ the -dbg packages did not help - I suspect they contain debug symbols, but don't provide any additional runtime for debugging mono programs
10:46 sorear libmono2.0-cil contains Mono.CompilerServices.SymbolWriter
10:47 moritz_ niecza: say 1
10:47 p6eval niecza 22f630e: OUTPUT«1␤»
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10:58 * sorear out
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11:59 takadonet morning all
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13:07 jnthn fail
13:07 * moritz_ wanted to say that too, but jnthn was faster
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15:10 araujo http://pastie.org/1272344
15:10 * araujo wonders which syntax looks better
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15:14 arnsholt I think I prefer the first
15:14 arnsholt It's more "conventional"
15:15 * moritz_ didn't see the difference at first glance
15:15 araujo indeed ... I just wonder because... all you see there are objects sending messages between each other .....
15:15 araujo and I wonder if { ... } would fit better for lists
15:15 araujo so I can get index notation like: { 1 2 3 }[2]
15:15 araujo instead of the other way around
15:16 araujo [1 2 3]{2}
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15:22 daxim neutrino on SO   http://stackoverflow.com/q/3147776#3934635
15:22 phenny daxim: 05:48Z <sorear> tell daxim The tool you are looking for is called dynamic programming.  the classical example for this is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change-making_problem
15:22 daxim dynamic programming, eh
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18:16 sorear good * #perl6
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19:00 jnthn evening
19:01 sjohnson hi!
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19:08 takadonet jnthn: hey
19:09 jnthn o/ takadonet
19:09 takadonet jnthn: how your hacking coming along?
19:11 jnthn takadonet: Last weekend I got a LOT of stuff done.
19:11 jnthn This week, I'm having to focus quite a bit on $dayjob so haven't got so much done.
19:11 takadonet jnthn: I saw! Good job
19:11 takadonet ahhh
19:11 jnthn (Teaching a course next week and getting the material in shape is taking a little effort. :-))
19:12 * sorear added a docs/LHF to niecza in an attempt to draw attention
19:12 jnthn Anyway, planning to have another push on NQP.Net in the next few days
19:13 jnthn And then move on to spending a bit of time getting nqp-rx a bit further forward.
19:13 takadonet cool
19:13 jnthn Get it switched further to the new meta-model implementation, and port the mutli stuff I got fleshed out in NQP on .Net.
19:14 sorear sadly, dalek is broken, so you won't see me spamming #perl6
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19:14 jnthn Aww.
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19:58 Tene jnthn: what are you teaching about?
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20:05 sjohnson is there a way to match any printable ascii character, with a regex metacharacter?
20:06 jnthn sjohnson: <print> iirc
20:06 sjohnson p6 only probably, correct?
20:07 flussence do those correspond to ctype.h?
20:07 jnthn Tene: It's a TDD intro course. So some background to that, then unit test frameworks, mock objects, dependency injection/inversion of control, and stuff like that.
20:07 colomon jnthn: is <print> limited to ASCII?
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20:08 Tene nice
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20:09 jnthn sjohnson: S05 only says "Match a single printable character.
20:09 jnthn so far as I can see
20:09 jnthn gah
20:09 sjohnson i've ran out of good ideas for p6 :9
20:09 jnthn That was in answer to colomon's question.
20:09 sjohnson they've been done already!
20:09 flussence poking at the source, it seems the answer to all of the above is "yes"
20:09 colomon jnthn++
20:09 jnthn Perl 6 tends to go on unicode properties for the built-in char classes.
20:09 jnthn So I'd be surprised if it was ASCII only.
20:10 jnthn Not sure what unicode character property it maps to off hand.
20:10 jnthn rakudo: say "a\nb" ~~ /<print>/
20:10 p6eval rakudo 142d22: OUTPUT«a␤»
20:10 jnthn Ah, it's implemented though :-)
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20:12 sorear rakudo: "七" ~~ /<print>/
20:12 flussence these are all defined in parrot languages/pge/PGE/Regex.pir if anyone else is curious, around line 150
20:12 p6eval rakudo 142d22:  ( no output )
20:12 jnthn rakudo: say  "七" ~~ /<print>/
20:12 p6eval rakudo 142d22: OUTPUT«七␤»
20:12 jnthn \o/
20:13 jnthn flussence: Apart from Rakudo doesn't use PGE any more these days. :-)
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20:13 sbp what are the printable characters in unicode terms?
20:13 jnthn https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/blob/​master/src/Regex/Cursor-builtins.pir is where it's at nowadays.
20:13 flussence I went looking for xdigit first, "print" isn't the most greppable thing... :)
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20:14 sbp e.g. in terms of General Category Values
20:14 jnthn ;)
20:14 jnthn .tailcall '!cclass'(self, 'print', .CCLASS_PRINTING)
20:14 sorear in ASCII-land, print is everything except controls
20:14 sbp so everything except C[cfson]?
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20:15 sorear nonspacing marks might also be nonprintable
20:15 sorear you need to read perluniprops
20:16 sbp nonspacing: those are Cf right?
20:16 sbp e.g. U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES (Cf)
20:17 sorear I meant stuff like COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT
20:17 sbp hmm
20:17 jnthn .oO( U+2062 would make a great caption for a lolcat looking at its wrist, but there's no watch there. )
20:18 sorear $print = $perl->add_match_table('Print', Description => 'Characters that are graphical plus space characters (but no controls)', Initialize => $Blank + $Graph - $gc->table('Control'),);
20:18 sbp phenny: ask TimToady what <print> should match. S05 says a "single printable character", but what is a printable character in General Category Value terms? everything except for C[cfson]? sorear suggests Mn should be excluded too. Cf. TR44 § 5.7.1
20:18 phenny sbp: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
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20:20 sbp perhaps moritz_ or pmichaud will know too?
20:20 sorear the definitive reference for Perl/Unicode mapping is lib/unicore/mktables, a 14,757 line perl script which extracts relevant data
20:20 sorear mktables makes very clear what \p{Print} matches
20:20 sbp .g lib/unicore/mktables
20:20 phenny sbp: http://grokbase.com/topic/2009/11/24/mktables-g​ets-stuck-on-win32/HIr_qrBaLrwmwbQ4qGTgJBMddyQ
20:20 flussence the proximity of print next to those other things makes me think it's based on ctypes though, and I think it's a bit confusing if it differs from other languages' implementation of that...
20:20 sorear and S05 makes very clear that /<print>/ = rx:P5/\p{Print}/
20:23 sbp ['IsPrint',  '$cat =~ /^([LMNPS]|Co|Zs)/','']
20:23 sbp from http://cvs.opensolaris.org/source/xref/​duckwater/duckwater-hg/usr/src/cmd/perl​/5.6.1/distrib/lib/unicode/mktables.PL
20:23 flussence oh, there's \p{PosixPrint} in perl6 too... guess that clears things up.
20:23 flussence *5
20:24 sbp so that's everything except Z[lp] and C[cfsn]
20:24 sorear sbp: 5.6.1 is ancient history
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20:24 sbp first thing that I found; better references welcome
20:27 sorear http://perl5.git.perl.org/perl.git/b​lob_plain/HEAD:/lib/unicore/mktables
20:27 szbalint for unicode stuff, you need at least perl 5.10.x
20:27 flussence IsPrint is also explained in perlretut.pod, in 5.12.2
20:27 szbalint git for bleed is good though
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20:35 sbp gah. well from sorear's URI it seems the following are excluded:
20:35 sftp joined #perl6
20:35 sbp Surrogate SG (Cs)
20:35 sbp Private_use Co
20:35 sbp Noncharacter NChar (Cn)
20:35 sbp Control Cc
20:35 sbp Unassigned Cn
20:36 sbp but I can't figure out why Noncharacter and Unassigned are both included, because that just means you're excluding Cn twice. so presumably they are not in fact isomorphic
20:37 sbp and in this case, Mn would not be excluded
20:37 sbp so I stand by my question
20:38 sorear ask #p5p
20:41 sbp I don't even see where S05 states that /<print>/ = rx:P5/\p{Print}/
20:41 sbp you said it makes it very clear — where so?
20:41 sbp I've searched all references of "perl5", "perl 5", and "p5". did I miss something?
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20:42 dnl r�h
20:42 sorear S05:1908
20:42 sorear also S01:27 is a fundamental rule
20:43 moritz_ well, we would benefit from a clearer and more explicit spec regarding the Unicode character classes
20:44 sbp ah, I see; thanks. (for the logs, that is “The C<\p> and C<\P> properties become intrinsic grammar rules such as␤(C<< <alpha> >> and C<< <-alpha> >>).”)
20:45 sorear moritz_: S01:27 should be reworded as a W3C-esque "Normative References" section?
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20:47 moritz_ sorear: not at all. It would be just better if fallback to p5 semantics would be explicit where we want it
20:47 MayDaniel left #perl6
20:47 moritz_ sorear: because there are also places where we fall back to p5 spec due to lack of existing p6 spec, not because we want it to
20:47 moritz_ and IMHO those two cases should be clearly distinguished
20:48 moritz_ maybe an explicit table which <foo> corresponds to which \p{bar}
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23:06 sorear yay.  niecza is now running with new iterators
23:13 _kaare left #perl6
23:18 sorear All tests successful. \o/
23:23 icwiener left #perl6
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23:24 sorear list iteration microbenchmark is 24 times faster.
23:24 sorear still 14x slower than Perl5 and 20x slower than PIR though
23:25 Tene nice
23:30 justatheory joined #perl6
23:32 sorear (2.29 us/cycle on itmark.pl)
23:43 wooden joined #perl6
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23:52 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
23:53 masak joined #perl6
23:53 masak ahoy!
23:53 * masak is back $HOME
23:53 sorear Hello masak!!
23:53 sorear I just made for @array { } 24 times faster in Niecza
23:54 masak wow!
23:54 masak sorear++
23:54 masak I just made my blogging page generator a bunch faster, too.
23:54 masak I'm basically going to blog about not being awake enough to blog about it, and then go to bed.
23:55 * masak tired-ish
23:55 * diakopter having trouble finding my hilite
23:57 * diakopter found it
23:57 * diakopter sits on (ok, near) a beach in HI

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