Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-11-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:12 colomon rakudo: say ~<a b c d>
00:12 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«a b c d␤»
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00:13 colomon rakudo: say 'a'.fmt("%2s")
00:13 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT« a␤»
00:13 colomon rakudo: say 'a'.fmt("%-2s")
00:13 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«a ␤»
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01:14 colomon phenny: tell masak It's the sprintf that's killing you, I think.  I've rewritten colors-and-heights to use a bunch of .fmt calls and ~ , and it makes a huge difference
01:14 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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02:02 colomon phenny: tell masak My version is here -- https://gist.github.com/668607 -- and is 8x faster.
02:02 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
02:05 colomon Huh.  sprintf is more or less just a call straight into Parrot.  Odd that should be so slow....
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02:49 colomon oh, never mind.  the trouble is .trans, not sprintf
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03:37 dalek bench-scripts: 0b7573c | colomon++ | trans-sprintf.pl:
03:37 dalek bench-scripts: Test .trans and sprintf.
03:37 dalek bench-scripts: review: https://github.com/perl6/bench-scripts/comm​it/0b7573c3caa23c0019d2586bbd425ee1dc0bac19
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04:09 sorear hi
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04:19 cotto does masak generally prefer to have his last name spelled with an umlaut?  It doesn't have one in parrot's CREDITS.
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04:29 dukeleto masak: ping!
04:29 dukeleto masak: ^^^
04:29 * dukeleto has to regenerate the parrot.git repo
04:29 dukeleto so if you want something changed that is easy, now is the time. But please don't make my life more difficult for no reason.
04:30 dukeleto Now as in "now"
04:30 sorear dukeleto: masak isn't even online
04:30 dukeleto sorear: he tab completes, he *must* be online
04:33 sorear he doesn't tab for me
04:33 dukeleto masak doesn't use an umlaut in rakudo.git
04:33 dukeleto so i am not going to change what he has in CREDITS
04:33 sorear mas<tab> = masonkramer, masonkramer
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04:35 dukeleto sorear: it was a joke. Laugh. Take a deep breath. Laugh again. You can go now.
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05:12 dalek niecza: ac003e7 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
05:12 dalek niecza: Allow inspection of role parameters
05:12 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/​ac003e77cc1dee9f85730fa38102e6f3f08e0c56
05:12 dalek niecza: 131fa77 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
05:12 dalek niecza: Encode variable name information in LAD trees
05:12 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/​131fa773623d51549ad6c3c3c4e48432958be3d5
05:12 dalek niecza: 13cdb07 | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
05:12 dalek niecza: Fix heredoc tweaking
05:12 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/​13cdb074f72c688e114c4a7d248124a08285b125
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05:38 lue ohai o/
05:38 phenny lue: 08 Nov 11:55Z <masak> tell lue thanks for the patch at https://gist.github.com/667105 -- I see one tiny error on L28 (which is easy to correct), and I'd like to discuss how strings interact with ++ and --. apart from that, it looks very good.
05:44 dukeleto A new parrot.git is born. Please do a "git pull --force" to git it.
05:44 * dukeleto had to fix some bugs in the repo
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07:36 sorear TimToady: How does Any decide whether to stringify as "" or ""-with-warning or "Any()"?
07:38 sorear Why isn't it possible for parametric roles to have parameters in method names?
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09:15 * sorear out
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10:22 masak morning, #perl6
10:22 phenny masak: 01:14Z <colomon> tell masak It's the sprintf that's killing you, I think.  I've rewritten colors-and-heights to use a bunch of .fmt calls and ~ , and it makes a huge difference
10:22 phenny masak: 02:02Z <colomon> tell masak My version is here -- https://gist.github.com/668607 -- and is 8x faster.
10:22 masak colomon++
10:22 masak odd. doesn't .fmt use printf?
10:24 tadzik o/
10:24 moritz_ masak: maybe sprintf scales O(bad) with the number of formats used
10:25 masak that might be it.
10:25 flussence_ is now known as flussence
10:25 moritz_ do we redispatch to the parrot printf?
10:26 masak suspect so.
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10:29 moritz_ rakudo: say time - time
10:29 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«0␤»
10:29 moritz_ rakudo: say now - now
10:29 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«-0.178533475026567␤»
10:30 tadzik phenny: tell colomon what's wrong with neutro?
10:30 phenny tadzik: I'll pass that on when colomon is around.
10:33 tadzik masak++ # druid working
10:39 masak some happy tweets: http://twitter.com/paxindust​ria/status/1827139309535233 http://twitter.com/xquery/status/1907273655910400
10:40 mathw masak: the first one is particularly nice, I think
10:41 mathw especially for the person who gave the talk :D
10:41 broquain1 is now known as broquaint
10:41 masak indeed.
10:43 moritz_ any idea which talk it referred to?
10:43 masak new rule: every time you suggest a "special sigil" on p6l, you lose. even if you do so hesitatingly.
10:45 moritz_ +(1..Inf).pick
10:45 daxim speccers: steal the syntax for inclusive/exclusive ranges from Gosu - http://developers.slashdot.org/story/10/11/09/051​0258/Gosu-Programming-Language-Released-To-Public
10:46 masak but we have inclusive/exclusive ranges...
10:46 moritz_ daxim: so what's their syntax?
10:46 daxim :o
10:46 daxim 1|..|10   open interval (equals 2..9)
10:47 masak daxim: 1 ^..^ 10
10:47 moritz_ I don't see how that's better or worse than 1^..^10
10:47 daxim kick-ass
10:47 masak in Perl 6.
10:47 masak my thought exactly.
10:47 daxim see, I didn't even know it was there
10:47 mathw But now you do
10:47 masak daxim: clearly you haven't studied the Periodic Table of Operators enough :)
10:47 mathw So today's not a complete loss
10:48 moritz_ ours has the advantage you can even say ^10
10:48 moritz_ whereas |10 has a completely different meaning
10:48 moritz_ (at least in Perl 6 :-)
10:49 daxim then, have a look at the Gosu intro whether there's anything else worth cribbing
10:51 masak sure thing.
10:51 moritz_ seems like they stole the idea to use -> for lambdas :-)
10:52 moritz_ var file = new File( "someFile.txt" )
10:52 moritz_ file.write( "That was easy" )
10:52 moritz_ I like that example :-)
10:52 mathw Haskell also uses -> for lambdas though... just in Haskell, it appears in a different place and means a different thing
10:52 mathw moritz_: I'm always suspicious of easy examples. I always want to see real code
10:53 mathw But it is a nice example to bring a smile to the face
10:53 moritz_ aye
10:53 masak what do they do about opening and closing the file?
10:53 masak are such ideas outdated?
10:53 moritz_ from a first glance the syntax looks pretty neat
10:53 moritz_ I just don't like that lambdas are open-ended
10:54 moritz_ \ s -> do something with s
10:54 mathw hah that's Haskell syntax :)
10:54 masak agreed.
10:54 moritz_ there's no final delimiter, so if you write big ones, it's hard to see where it ends
10:54 moritz_ and you have to rely on outer parens
10:54 mathw hmm no layout rule?
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10:55 masak where are all these neat JVM languages sprouting up from? is there a JVM language construction kit somewhere?
10:55 moritz_ hard to tell from the examples
10:55 moritz_ var orderedByLength = listOfStrings.orderBy( \ s -> s.length() )
10:55 masak hm. they have "as String" for conversions where Perl 6 has ".Str"
10:56 mathw "as String" is a bit more Java-ish in influence
10:56 daxim -> takes a block if it's not just a single expression   {}
10:56 moritz_ daxim: ah, that's nicer
10:56 mathw or Boo
10:56 moritz_ mathw: Perl 6 also has "as Str" (in signatures)
10:56 mathw moritz_: true
10:57 moritz_ ++ for using "as String" and not "to String" :-)
10:58 mathw yes "as" is much nicer conceptually I think
11:02 moritz_ "to" really sounds like an in-place conversion
11:02 mathw yup
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11:11 masak cotto: I'm almost entirely umlaut-agnostic when it comes to my last name. I like when it's there but don't mind when it isn't.
11:12 * moritz_ would mind misplaced umlauts in his name :-)
11:13 masak well, "misplaced" can mean two things. I don't like the "Masäk" spelling.
11:14 daxim M»ö«sak
11:14 masak :)
11:15 masak sushi &
11:15 moritz_ well, 'Möritz' or so was what I meant with mis-placed umlauts in my name :-)
11:16 masak ahh, "mis-placed" with a dash. that's a third meaning :P
11:17 masak (the first two are "wrongly placed" and "wrongly omitted", by the way)
11:17 masak really &
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12:10 colomon masak: sorry, I should have added a third message.  it's not sprintf that's the problem, it's .trans
12:10 phenny colomon: 10:30Z <tadzik> tell colomon what's wrong with neutro?
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12:11 colomon tadzik: step 1 is your github connection for projects.list no longer works after recent changes there.
12:12 colomon tadzik: step 2 is that neutro's copy of perl6-File-Tools no longer tests cleaner for me on the Mac, so it won't install there.  (normal perl6-File-Tools works fine for me, I haven't investigated the difference yet.)
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12:14 masak colomon: yes, I saw that in the backlog later.
12:15 masak colomon: thanks for your exploratory work.
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12:30 masak bbkr++ # I/O suggestion for perl6advent
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12:32 Teratogen gosh
12:32 Teratogen I am unbanned! =)
12:33 masak Teratogen: welcome back!
12:33 moritz_ proof yourself worthy :-)
12:34 masak moritz_: sounds like something a math teacher would say :)
12:34 masak Teratogen: ooh, you're the "dammit" guy!
12:35 masak Teratogen: just to clear this up from the start, people here have been getting Perl 6 "out the door" for years and years.
12:35 moritz_ masak: I count that as a compliment :-)
12:36 masak Teratogen: claiming otherwise is deluded, confusing, and not very gentlemanlike.
12:37 masak Teratogen: as a general pro tip, I would suggest that you spend less energy clamoring for Perl 6, and more energy trying it out. have a nice day.
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12:48 Teratogen masak is there a definitive version of Perl 6 out yet?
12:49 masak Teratogen: is there a definitive version of Perl 5 out yet?
12:49 jnthn masak: (is there a JVM language construction kit) Hopefully some day in the not too distant future, Perl 6 grammars + NQP + PAST. ;)
12:49 masak jnthn: \o/
12:50 jnthn <- ill :/
12:50 masak jnthn: :/
12:50 masak get well soon!
12:50 masak like, by Friday.
12:50 masak :)
12:50 jnthn I hope so, I spend tomorrow and Thursday teaching.
12:50 jnthn So long as I get better from here rather than worse, it should be OK.
12:51 jnthn Clearly when you're here we must go for a curry to do way instain bacteria.
12:51 masak yay! do way instain!
12:52 jnthn .oO( which harm jnthn who cannot fright back! )
12:52 jnthn Oh no, it was a ?, not a !
12:52 jnthn ...I know "how is babby formed" too well...
12:52 masak :D
12:53 Teratogen Perl 5 is under ferocious development
12:53 Teratogen I have v5.10.1 on my machine!
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12:54 jnthn The ferocicity is such that you could even have 5.12 on it. ;)
12:54 masak and soon 5.14
12:54 masak Teratogen: but you didn't answer my question.
12:55 Teratogen the specification for Perl 5 is the source code for Perl 5
12:55 takadonet morning all
12:55 masak Teratogen: that's also not an answer.
12:55 masak takadonet: mroing!
12:55 takadonet masak: how are u sir?
12:56 masak takadonet: I'm fit and healthy, and my tummy is full of sushi. and u, sir?
12:56 Teratogen there is always a definitive version of Perl 5 out!
12:56 Teratogen the latest version! =)
12:56 masak I find the Rakudo Star releases to be very definitive.
12:56 Teratogen I guess what I am asking is there a version of Perl 6 that compiles directly to Parrot code?
12:57 masak of course there is.
12:57 Teratogen what is it written in?
12:57 Teratogen C?
12:57 takadonet masak: just got in for work and looking for any new commits for rakudo :)
12:57 masak Teratogen: look, what use is it complaining about things not being there yet if you have no clue whatsoever what's there?
12:57 Teratogen that's true =)
12:57 masak Teratogen: even as trolls go, you're quite a failure.
12:58 masak Teratogen: go read up.
12:58 Teratogen I am a failed troll =(
12:58 takadonet masak: perhaps he is a happy troll?
12:59 masak takadonet: is it snowing yet in central Canada?
13:00 masak takadonet: I think there are so many interesting ways to be a troll. I refuse to argue with substandard trolls. that's just a waste of my time.
13:01 takadonet masak: should be but little warmer then normal around here
13:04 takadonet masak: do you know where pmichaud is?
13:04 masak takadonet: Texas?
13:04 * masak .oO( current state of pmichaud... )
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13:13 masak moritz_: re http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=68498 -- do you have any opinion about the resolution of this one? has it ever been decided how it is to be determined whether an attribute "has been initialized"?
13:14 masak if you ask me, I'm not sure we need a third layer, besides the one with the actual value, and the defined/undefined layer. adding an initialized/uninitialized layer seems like complicating things a lot just to allow people to initialize things with an undefined value.
13:16 jnthn I wouldn't miss it. But then, I'm an implementor. ;-)
13:17 masak as an end user, I wouldn't miss it either.
13:19 jnthn Well, that's the more important measure. :-)
13:20 plobsing_ phenny: tell arthur-_ how did you obtain libjit? it doesn't appear to be packaged for this distro. did you build from source? which sources did you use?
13:20 phenny plobsing_: I'll pass that on when arthur-_ is around.
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13:23 colomon masak: we've had a couple of days with snow here, but nothing that stuck to the ground yet.  (though apparently my parents, 2 hours' drive southeast, did wake up with a layer of white on the ground a few days ago -- melted by lunch.)
13:24 jnthn afk for a bit
13:24 masak colomon: we got our layer of white today. but to be honest it looks very wet.
13:24 arthur-_ plobsing_: from git
13:24 phenny arthur-_: 13:20Z <plobsing_> tell arthur-_ how did you obtain libjit? it doesn't appear to be packaged for this distro. did you build from source? which sources did you use?
13:25 arthur-_ ( so, from source )
13:25 arthur-_ plobsing_: url = https://github.com/plobsing/parrot-libjit-fb.git
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13:28 arthur-_ oh !
13:28 arthur-_ libjit
13:28 arthur-_ not parrot-libjit
13:28 arthur-_ sorry
13:29 arthur-_ plobsing_: from http://freshmeat.net/projects/libjit/
13:30 arthur-_ built from source
13:30 plobsing_ so you used the 0.1.2 sources?
13:30 arthur-_ yes
13:30 masak not a single use of sub-form &elems in the spectest suite... :/
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13:30 arthur-_ libjit-0.1.2
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13:47 masak hah! by the time of A12, we had 'as' as a coercion operator! :)
13:49 masak with the extra twist that 'as' could be omitted in assignments if the lhs was typed. freaky.
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14:01 flussence rakudo: say sprintf('%d %1$d', 4);
14:01 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9:  ( no output )
14:01 flussence rakudo: say sprintf('%d', 4);
14:01 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«4␤»
14:02 flussence what would I need to do to get that (Str::SprintfFormat.index) to work?
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14:08 masak flussence: modify the source code of sprintf.
14:10 flussence shouldn't be too hard... .oO( famous last words? )
14:11 masak I'm trying to find it for you, but I'm not too familiar with Parrot architecture.
14:12 flussence I tried once before and got nowhere... :(
14:12 masak closest I've come so far is src/ops/string.ops, but it just delegates to something, I don't know what.
14:12 flussence if nothing else, I'll at least try to write tests for it
14:13 flussence (after $dayjob... bah)
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14:16 masak again, probably best make it Parrot tests.
14:17 dukeleto did i hear "Parrot tests" ?
14:17 flussence maybe!
14:17 masak we're talking about embracing/extending sprintf.
14:17 dukeleto parrot's sprintf ?
14:18 dukeleto what do y'all want to extend about it?
14:18 flussence it's more a case of making it work as documented... the %1$d syntax is missing right now :(
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14:21 masak I'd actually like to extend it. this is something that's been bugging me for a while.
14:22 masak Perl 6 has a %C directive, quite powerful, would be nice to have.
14:22 masak but it needs to be added at the Parrot level.
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14:22 masak it's one of those two-layer problems where nothing happens because few or none have the specific know-how needed to add it.
14:23 masak just like the DESTROY/DESTROYALL submethods.
14:23 masak (also, pehaps the need for these features isn't super-high)
14:26 dukeleto sorear: ping
14:26 dukeleto masak: is there a description of what %C does, and what "%1$d" is supposed to do?
14:27 dukeleto masak: if y'all can write failing tests, then maybe i can get parrot people to make them pass
14:27 masak dukeleto: it's a deal.
14:28 masak dukeleto: there's some spec about both, in S32/Str.
14:28 masak =item sprintf
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14:33 ch3ck m0insen
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14:50 masak ch3ck: \o
14:52 ch3ck morrn masak
14:53 masak well, mid-afternoon, really.
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14:55 ch3ck we follow larry's place :>
14:56 ch3ck he's still yawning
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15:22 daxim masak, why didn't you tell us you were coming to vienna? :(  we could have made you a star guest for apw2010
15:22 masak thank you. :) I wasn't there for the Friday, only Wednesday and Thursday.
15:23 masak for what it's worth, I enjoyed Vienna. I didn't have a lot of time for Perl though, I was there in other business.
15:26 * jnthn back
15:32 takadonet jnthn: welcome back
15:32 plobsing phenny: tell arthur-_ I reproduced your error. I debugged by running 'parrot -w perl6.pbc mongo.p6 2>&1 | grep libjit'. Turns out it isn't finding /usr/local/lib/libjit.so.0 . You need to tune your system to be able to find this library. You can configure ld.so.config/ldconfig to treat /usr/local/lib as a library path, install the library into a location that is already a library path (eg:...
15:32 phenny plobsing: I'll pass that on when arthur-_ is around.
15:32 plobsing .../usr/lib), use LD_LIBRARY_PATH, or add it only to parrot search paths by running parrot with the -X option.
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15:34 wolveria1 is now known as wolverian
15:36 pmb joined #perl6
15:36 pmb hi
15:37 PerlJam greetings
15:37 masak hi pmb!
15:37 pmb :)
15:37 pmb hello hello
15:37 estrabd_afk is now known as estrabd
15:43 jnthn #phasers today?
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16:07 dukeleto sorear: ping
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16:17 masak jnthn: hope so. it's in 2h43m, right?
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16:25 jnthn masak: Right, 8pm our thyme.
16:25 masak sage words.
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16:27 jnthn I wonder if we'll talk about the parsely tree.
16:28 arthur-_ plobsing_: parrot test.pir
16:28 arthur-_ ParrotLibrary
16:28 phenny arthur-_: 15:32Z <plobsing> tell arthur-_ I reproduced your error. I debugged by running 'parrot -w perl6.pbc mongo.p6 2>&1 | grep libjit'. Turns out it isn't finding /usr/local/lib/libjit.so.0 . You need to tune your system to be able to find this library. You can configure ld.so.config/ldconfig to treat /usr/local/lib as a library path, install the library into a location that is already a library path (eg:...
16:29 masak std: class IDholder {}; class Collar is IDholder {}; class LegBand is IDholder {}; role Pet[IDholder $id: $tag] {}; class Dog does Pet[Collar, "fido"] {}
16:29 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 124m␤»
16:29 masak rakudo: class IDholder {}; class Collar is IDholder {}; class LegBand is IDholder {}; role Pet[IDholder $id: $tag] {}; class Dog does Pet[Collar, "fido"] {}
16:29 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Lexical 'self' not found␤»
16:29 masak jnthn: any comment? :)
16:29 arthur-_ plobsing_: but pir::loadlib__ps('libjit_fb') or die 'could not load libjit_fb'; still dies
16:30 jnthn role Pet[IDholder $id: $tag] {}
16:30 jnthn What's that colon doing there?
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16:30 masak jnthn: it's a disambiguator. it's from A12.
16:30 jnthn wtf
16:31 jnthn why are you using syntax from A12
16:31 jnthn Rather than the correct syntax in S12?
16:31 jnthn Well, probably S14 now.
16:31 masak I know, I know.
16:31 jnthn : is used for invocant nowadays.
16:31 jnthn It should probably have complained at you a bit differently
16:31 masak ah, it used to be longname separator?
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16:31 jnthn I guess so.
16:31 jnthn It's ; now
16:31 jnthn No
16:31 jnthn ;;
16:31 masak A12 says "If you want to parameterize the initial value of a role attribute, be sure to put a colon if you don't want the parameter to be considered part of the long name"
16:31 jnthn The ; is conjectural.
16:32 jnthn OK
16:32 jnthn Then you want ;;
16:32 masak right.
16:32 jnthn The error could be more awesome but isn't surprising either.
16:32 masak nod.
16:32 masak I think STD could complain, though.
16:32 jnthn You're trying to use something as an invocant, in a place where there is no invocant.
16:32 jnthn Aye, true.
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16:33 jnthn $INVOCAT_OK should probably trigger there and say "huh, what?"
16:33 jnthn er, the thing that checks $*INVOCANT_OK
16:33 sftp left #perl6
16:33 jnthn Not sure if we ported $*INVOCANT_OK into Rakudo's grammar yet, mind.
16:34 jnthn Maybe a good weekly challenge if not :)
16:34 masak aye.
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16:36 * jnthn hopes his bad throat goes away soon, given he's meant to spend most of tomorrow talking.
16:37 * moritz_ hopes only the badness of the throat goes away, but the throat itself should stay :-)
16:37 cls_bsd left #perl6
16:37 jnthn Maybe I should take a jar of honey as well as my laptop. :)
16:37 jnthn Preferable. :P
16:37 PerlJam hey, I just noticed that parrot is on github now ...  Has anyone worked out how to do the rakudo build based on a gitted parrot?
16:37 moritz_ not yet
16:37 moritz_ I mean to give it a shot tonight, but I'd love it if somebody else gets there faster
16:38 jnthn ++moritz_
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16:45 masak huh, A12 has the 'handles' trait working on method declarations. wild.
16:45 toebu left #perl6
16:46 jnthn .oO( "Traits gone wild!" )
16:46 orafu left #perl6
16:47 masak "The Apocalypse they didn't want you to see!"
16:47 jnthn It's been years since I read A12. :)
16:48 orafu joined #perl6
16:48 masak I'm glad we got rid of array- and hash-based delegation.
16:48 jnthn That was in S12 until fairly recently.
16:48 jnthn It was around sufficiently recently that Rakudo once implemented it, iirc.
16:48 PerlJam I  thought rakudo has it implemented now.
16:48 masak aye.
16:49 jnthn Oh. :)
16:49 masak don't think so.
16:49 jnthn I don't either
16:49 jnthn It was in alpha
16:49 jnthn But didn't make it into ng 'cus handles was totally re-done then.
16:49 PerlJam perhaps I've got some faulty wiring in my memory circuits
16:49 masak rakudo: class A { has @.x handles <elems> }; say A.new(:x(1, 2, 3)).elems
16:49 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«3␤»
16:49 masak \o/
16:49 masak so, it's gone.
16:49 jnthn The other funny one on that front was in S06
16:50 jnthn sub foo(:@bar) { say @bar.perl }; foo(bar => 1, bar => 2); # guess what this was once spec'd to do :)
16:50 masak jnthn: you got rid of that!?
16:50 masak I never noticed.
16:50 jnthn I...hope so
16:50 jnthn I certainly never implemented it
16:50 * masak czechs
16:51 jnthn If it's still there, feel free to actually kill it.
16:51 jnthn It's bonkers.
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16:51 jnthn Though, admittedly, sorta cute. :)
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16:51 masak yup, still there.
16:51 jnthn whoa :)
16:51 masak S06:745.
16:52 * jnthn handes masak++ the matches ;)
16:52 masak jnthn: you remove it. I have a feeling TimToady might smite whoever does it. :P
16:52 masak he has been defending that bit before.
16:52 jnthn :|
16:52 jnthn OK, leave it then. :)
16:52 jnthn I can get smote.;
16:52 masak :P
16:52 jnthn I'd rather get smote than have to implement it. :P
16:53 jnthn ...is taht actually the correct conjugation? I *think* smite is ablauty... :)
16:53 masak $MAX_IMPLEMENTOR_INCONVENIENCE
16:53 masak jnthn: "smitten"?
16:53 jnthn No
16:53 PerlJam heh
16:53 jnthn I think that's a different word
16:53 jnthn "I'm smitten with Ukrainian girls."
16:53 jnthn That's quite different to having smited...smote...whatever.
16:53 jnthn :)
16:53 masak what's the present tense of "smitten"?
16:54 jnthn It's a noun, ain't it?
16:54 daxim to smite
16:54 masak no, it's clearly a participle.
16:54 jnthn oh
16:54 jnthn it's an adjective
16:54 jnthn http://dictionary.reference.c​om/browse/smitten?&amp;qsrc=
16:54 jnthn it means both
16:54 masak participle.
16:54 jnthn d'oh :)
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16:54 daxim participle
16:55 jnthn Yes, it is :)
16:55 masak people like the FLOSS episode. http://twitter.com/pilif/status/2039873338867713
16:55 orafu left #perl6
16:55 * masak .oO( if it was that excellent, I don't need to listen to the previous episodes... :P )
16:55 jnthn It is an adjective too but then it's unrelated to the verb smite. I guess. :)
16:56 masak I wouldn't be so sure.
16:56 daxim fact: bruce schneier smites exceptions instead of throwing them
16:57 jnthn masak: Hmm. Maybe you're right...it just feels...weird. :)
16:57 orafu joined #perl6
16:57 jnthn masak: I'd never considered them as related before :)
16:58 jnthn perhaps from PIE base *(s)mei-  "to smear, to rub,"
16:58 jnthn (says the link I posted)
16:59 masak the rubbing theory of romance.
16:59 jnthn .oO( Mmmm...pie... )
16:59 * justatheory rubs masak
16:59 jnthn masak: Lets, er, not go there. :P
16:59 masak I feel... smitten. eww.
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17:01 jnthn http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=smitten
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17:06 masak jnthn: I don't think the analogy is that far-fetched. I envision some poor soul struck by lightning or something -- totally comparable to falling in love.
17:08 masak nom &
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17:09 jnthn yeah, it sucks when that happens... :P
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17:23 TimToady sorear> TimToady: How does Any decide whether to stringify as "" or ""-with-warning or "Any()"?
17:24 TimToady what we've said about that in the past is there are two different stringifications
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17:24 TimToady .Str is low level and indicates the desire for a printable representation, so that produces "Any()"
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17:25 TimToady .Stringy (used by ~) is high level and indicates the desire to get a string to do further string processing with, so ~Any is supposed to do ""-with-warning
17:25 TimToady I note that rakudo does not follow this yet though...
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17:27 TimToady it's possible that using .Str for the low level is bad though
17:27 jnthn rakudo: say ~(class { method Stringy { "right" }; method Str { "rong" } })
17:27 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«()␤»
17:28 jnthn oh, duh :)
17:28 envi__ joined #perl6
17:28 colomon how long till #phasers?
17:28 jnthn rakudo: say ~(class { method Stringy { "right" }; method Str { "rong" } }.new)
17:28 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say ~(clas"␤»
17:28 jnthn rakudo: say ~((class { method Stringy { "right" }; method Str { "rong" } }).new)
17:28 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«rong␤»
17:28 jnthn we're doin it rong
17:28 jnthn colomon: 92 minutes
17:29 colomon yow!  good thing I asked!  #stupid daylight savings....
17:29 ggoebel joined #perl6
17:29 jnthn yeah, they caught me out last week too :)
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17:29 TimToady rakudo: say Any.Stringy
17:29 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«Method 'Stringy' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/IPEsTsUJC3␤»
17:29 colomon we don't have Stringy at all yet, do we?
17:30 TimToady rakudo: say Str ~~ Stringy
17:30 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:30 moritz_ only in some few cases
17:30 colomon never mind, I see role Stringy is in there now!
17:30 moritz_ rakudo: say Bool.Stringy, Bool.Str
17:30 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«FalseBool␤»
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17:31 bbkr is there a way to write simple AUTOLOAD? i'm trying to write JSON::RPC and more elegant solution is to use it like $client->methodname($methodparams) than $client->call(method=>$method​name,params=>$methodparams). any ideas?
17:32 mkramer AUTLOAD became CANDO
17:33 PerlJam bbkr: are you writing libs for Lacuna Expanse in Perl 6?
17:33 mkramer bbkr: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S10.html
17:33 bbkr mkramer: thanks, exactly what I need!
17:34 moritz_ I don't think it's implemented
17:34 bbkr PerlJam: no, JSON-RPC soI can write GetResponse API wrapper later in P6.
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17:34 bbkr s/sol/so/
17:36 mkramer I remember there was some issue with importation
17:36 mkramer it's not possible for CANDO to install new methods into the class, or something
17:36 jnthn You can easily install new methods in a class today
17:36 jnthn What you can't currently do is trap unhandled dispatches.
17:40 colomon dang, we want p6 Lacuna Expanse libs!
17:40 colomon ;)
17:40 * colomon was just checking how long it will take his supply ship to reach his latest colony...
17:40 PerlJam jnthn: surely, that can't be that hard to add  :)
17:41 mkramer my %bag = Bag(1,2,3);  %bag.WHAT() # seriously, what?
17:41 bbkr i don't want to install method into class (because in JSON-RPC list of methods is not known), just want to handle calls to methods that dont exist in my class.
17:41 jnthn PerlJam: It's trivial...in 6model. :)
17:42 mkramer bbkr: it sounds like you're out of luck in rakudo right now, based on what jnthn just said
17:42 PerlJam jnthn: tease!
17:43 TimToady sorear> Why isn't it possible for parametric roles to have parameters in method names?
17:43 TimToady std: method ::($name) ($x) { $x + 1 }
17:43 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 123m␤»
17:43 jnthn TimToady: ...omg...what?! :-)
17:43 jnthn TimToady: Not that it's all that nasty to support but... :-)
17:43 TimToady assuming $name is a constant
17:43 TimToady or a generic parameter
17:43 jnthn *nod*
17:43 TimToady see sorear++'s question
17:44 jnthn PerlJam: Yes, from a Rakudo point of view I'm teasing. On the other hand, I do have working a implementation that'll handle it that runs on .Net and Parrot by now. :-)
17:45 TimToady rakudo: method ::($name) ($x) { $x + 1 }
17:45 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Indirect name lookups not yet implemented at line 22, near " ($x) { $x"␤»
17:45 TimToady looks like rakudo parses it right too
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17:46 jnthn Oh, that's a start at least. :)
17:47 jnthn Can you do stuff like method ::('get_' ~ $name) ($x) { ... }
17:47 jnthn std: method ::('get_' ~ $name) ($x) { ... }
17:47 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  $x is declared but not used at /tmp/NzpsYROr_C line 1:␤------> [32mmethod ::('get_' ~ $name) ([33m⏏[31m$x) { ... }[0m␤ok 00:01 123m␤»
17:47 jnthn whee
17:48 TimToady which is just a warning
17:49 TimToady rakudo: method ::('get_' ~ $name) ($x) { ... }
17:49 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Indirect name lookups not yet implemented at line 22, near " ($x) { .."␤»
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17:59 TimToady Util: something is really wonky about your permutation sort; the permuter uses [>] while the sorter uses [le]
18:00 dakkar left #perl6
18:01 TimToady oh, wait, I see the indirection now
18:02 wallberg joined #perl6
18:02 TimToady was confused because the two routines use @a with different types
18:04 * TimToady is also suspicious that it's possible to write a more efficient permuter if it keeps the state somewhere besides the last permution
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18:05 TimToady seems like a gather/take would be useful somehow
18:06 TimToady another thread of thought is that we could build in the permution generator like other languages do
18:07 TimToady *tation
18:10 bbkr mkramer: indeed, I found no workaround to catch unhandled dispatch. so I allow to provide list of methods to install for now "JSON::RPC::Client.new(methods => <foo bar>)" and install them using ^add_method. and wait for CANDO implementation.
18:10 moritz_ bbkr++ # nice workaround
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18:21 moritz_ phenny: tell masak re RT #68498, I'm not aware of any resolution (or even resolution approach). Maybe the information could be kept in a contextual hash?
18:21 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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18:25 thundergnat Hi #perl6
18:26 PerlJam greetings thundergnat
18:26 moritz_ holla
18:26 colomon Hi thundergnat!
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18:27 thundergnat I took a whack at writing my first perl6 module: Sort::Naturally. It's on github at https://github.com/thundergnat/Sort-Naturally.
18:27 PerlJam thundergnat++
18:27 thundergnat Comment, suggestions and dope-smacks welcome. (well not the dope-smacks so much...)
18:28 thundergnat unless completely necessary...
18:28 bbkr left #perl6
18:28 * takadonet git clones it...
18:28 moritz_ ooh, nice use of list comprehension in the example
18:28 moritz_ my @ips = ((0..255).roll(4).join('.')for 0..99);
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18:30 moritz_ thundergnat: have you added it to the list on https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/ ?
18:30 thundergnat moritz_: Umm no
18:30 moritz_ thundergnat: oh, you didn't have access... now you do
18:31 moritz_ thundergnat: if you add it there, it'll appear on http://modules.perl6.org/ after a while
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18:32 colomon "For liberal values of speedy."
18:32 thundergnat moritz_: I'll give it a try. If I have difficulties I may ask for assitance.
18:32 colomon :)
18:32 moritz_ thundergnat++
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18:37 * moritz_ pushed to branch parrotgit, which starts with the conversion
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18:39 TimToady thundergnat: would it help the order-of-magnitude calculation to treat leading 0's as non-numeric?
18:41 thundergnat Timtoady: I experimented with treating leading zeros differently and it made some things better, but led to other odd behaviors.
18:42 thundergnat I reverted back to the simplest case.
18:43 thundergnat It makes for some oddities under certain circumstances, but sorting numbers as strings is going to be somewhat fragile no matter what.
18:43 thundergnat If you are expecting it to exactly match nemeric sort that is.
18:44 thundergnat *numeric
18:47 thundergnat In practice, what I have is good enough for most circumstances. And makes more sense than perl 5 Sort::Naturally IMO.
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18:59 thundergnat Woo Hoo! After fumbling around a bit, managed to add Sort-Naturally to ecosystem repository.
19:00 Util #phasers time!
19:00 thundergnat I'll figure out git sooner or later.
19:02 sjohnson git!
19:02 sjohnson git is great
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19:04 masak mmm, nom.
19:04 phenny masak: 18:21Z <moritz_> tell masak re RT #68498, I'm not aware of any resolution (or even resolution approach). Maybe the information could be kept in a contextual hash?
19:05 masak moritz_: sounds brittle and, again, is it worth it?
19:05 moritz_ dunno
19:07 tadzik hello
19:07 moritz_ #phasers right now
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19:23 sorear dukeleto: pog
19:23 sorear dukeleto: pog
19:23 TimToady is that a cross between a pig and a hog?
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19:28 tadzik colomon: what exactly fails for you?
19:28 tadzik (neutro, file::tools)
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19:31 colomon tadzik: https://gist.github.com/
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19:33 tadzik colomon: did you accidentally a part of an url? :)
19:34 colomon tadzik: apparently yes.  :\
19:34 colomon https://gist.github.com/669657
19:34 masak everybody knows you need to accidentally the whole URL... :)
19:35 tadzik oh wait, and projects.list is broken or something
19:35 tadzik colomon: how about with --v?
19:35 tadzik testing will get more verbose
19:35 bbkr left #perl6
19:35 dukeleto sorear: pong, in #parrot
19:35 colomon tadzik: oh, yes, projects.list is definitely broken.  You should be able to see that locally if you try to do an update.
19:36 tadzik yeah, just saw it
19:36 tadzik doesn't LWP::Simple like https? :S
19:36 tadzik everything suddenly got so broken
19:37 sorear LWP::Simple doesn't come with https by default
19:37 sorear because of crypto export paranoia
19:37 sorear you need to install Crypt::SSLeay
19:37 colomon tadzik: PERL6LIB=tmplib bin/neutro --v neutro      appears to generate the exact same output I've already sent you.
19:37 tadzik well, it's even perl6-lwp-simple even
19:37 colomon sorear: is that a p6 module?
19:37 tadzik s:2nd/even//
19:37 masak github/gist has switched (more) to https recently, methinks.
19:37 sorear colomon: no, I thought you were talking p5
19:37 sorear masak: entirely
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19:38 tadzik colomon: does macos have wget by default?
19:38 masak sorear: do you know why?
19:38 colomon tadzik: maybe?
19:38 envi__ left #perl6
19:38 tadzik colomon: mind checking?
19:38 colomon I don't remember installing it, but my memory is weak.
19:38 colomon I definitely have it here.
19:38 sorear masak: firesheep
19:38 tadzik anyone knowing?
19:38 colomon looks like not, maybe
19:38 colomon ?
19:39 tadzik crap
19:39 colomon "If, like me, you are missing wget since you upgraded to Leopard"....
19:39 tadzik well, we could git-clone it, since we rely on git anyway
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19:39 colomon git clone it and copy it into place?
19:39 tadzik yeah, sounds like a plan
19:39 colomon tadzik++
19:40 tadzik I hope I'll be able to make it in half an hour, battery is getting tired
19:41 tadzik what does it zero-depth git clone look like?
19:42 dukeleto tadzik: what now?
19:42 dukeleto tadzik: what do you mean "zero-depth" ?
19:44 tadzik dukeleto: nothing now. I recall a way to clone a git repo w/o its history
19:44 * moritz_ just knows that from git-svn
19:45 rbuels joined #perl6
19:47 dukeleto tadzik: there is something called a "shallow clone" but it is still in development, it is not a git feature ready for public consumption
19:47 tadzik I see
19:49 masak sorear: ah.
19:49 tadzik colomon: strange, tests passed for me. WIll look into them now
19:49 Util tadzik: OS X has `curl` by default. Just be sure to use the -o or -O options, or the URL retrieved goes to STDOUT
19:50 colomon tadzik: what platform?  For me, once I fixed the https: thing, Linux worked but OS X (Leopard) fails.
19:50 moritz_ colomon: do you have compiled .pir files in your parrot install location, or in ~/.perl6/lib/ ?
19:50 colomon probably in ~/.perl6/lib
19:50 colomon why?
19:50 tadzik colomon: Linux
19:51 moritz_ colomon: it might be a source for hard-to-reproduce errors
19:52 colomon okay, blew .perl6 away and trying again
19:52 colomon still the same error.  :(
19:52 tadzik lemme look into these tests
19:53 tadzik colomon: does 'some_file'.IO ~~ :d work for you?
19:54 colomon > "README".IO ~~ :d
19:54 colomon Bool::False
19:54 colomon that would be yes, right?
19:54 tadzik well, I guess it does. Could you enter the dir and run the tests manually?
19:54 tadzik mbuild, ufo&&make, whatever
19:54 colomon cd neutro/tmplib  ?
19:54 tadzik cd ~/.neutro/src/*File*
19:55 colomon I see.
19:55 colomon "mbuild"?
19:55 tadzik hmm, I thought mbuild is verbose
19:55 tadzik yep, from Module::Tools
19:56 tadzik but as I see `mbuild test` is not verbose for some reason, so go for ufo or test manually
19:56 Util tadzik: If the project is on GitHub, you can get a tarball or zipball of the project with no Git repo detail.
19:56 Util Is that what you meant by "zero-depth"?
19:56 Util https://github.com/parrot/parrot/tarball/master
19:57 masak std: my Str subset Username;
19:57 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
19:57 tadzik Util: nah. I was actually trying to use just LWP::Simple, but it has no SSL so it's pretty useless for GH now
19:57 colomon tadzik: ufo's make test reports "All tests successful."
19:58 tadzik hrm, funny
19:58 masak rakudo: my Str subset Username;
19:58 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unknown declarator type at line 22, near ";"␤»
19:58 tadzik . o O (masak submits rakudobug)
19:59 tadzik masak: you run MacOSX, no?
19:59 masak tadzik: I do.
19:59 * masak submits rakudobug
19:59 tadzik masak: could you try to reproduce colomon's problems? Bootstraping neutro
19:59 masak sure.
19:59 colomon masak++
20:00 tadzik ++masak
20:00 masak so, (1) pull neutro, (2) ...?
20:00 tadzik PERL6LIB=tmplib bin/neutro neutro
20:00 tadzik and preferably remove your ~/.neutro first
20:01 Util tadzik: Once you know the fullname of the file it is going to serve, you can get it without SSL.
20:01 Util curl -O http://download.github.com/parrot-par​rot-RELEASE_2_9_1-204-gc762e42.tar.gz
20:02 tadzik Util: yeah, but that is curl, so we get one case for OSX, one for Linux, another one for windows probably. I'll just go for git for now
20:02 tadzik masak: just gitpushed fixed neutro
20:02 masak left #perl6
20:02 Util For the record, Curl works on Win32 (after downloading the native .exe) and on Linux.
20:03 masak joined #perl6
20:03 masak sorry, my connection is not the best right now.
20:03 tadzik yeah, but that's still an additional dependency
20:04 Util TimToady: I used the first coherent permutation algorithm I could find.
20:04 tadzik 2102      tadzik | masak: just gitpushed fixed neutro
20:04 Util Eventually I will read Knuth for the best algorithm.
20:04 Util Right now, I am more interested in a better interface; something like:
20:04 Util my $p_iter = permute(< a b c >); while my @p = $p_iter->next { ... }
20:04 Util or
20:04 Util my $p_iter = permute(< a b c >); for $p_iter.iterate { ... }
20:05 masak Util: how about `for permutations(< a b c >) { ... }`?
20:06 colomon Util: seems like permute / permutations should just return a lazy list.  It's the p6 way.
20:06 tadzik . o O (advent calendar post - The P6 Way)
20:06 Util masak: That's great, as long as it is lazy.
20:07 masak Util: it is, as long as you use a gather or something.
20:07 ch3ck left #perl6
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20:09 masak tadzik: the P6 Way that can be told is not the unvarying P6 Way.
20:09 sftp joined #perl6
20:10 tadzik masak: how is the testing?
20:11 masak slow. I'm having only irregular interwebs.
20:11 lamstyle joined #perl6
20:11 tadzik bah. I have no internets at home, I'm now in the shopping centre, and the battery dies in 7 minutes :)
20:12 dalek mu: d3e1c88 | tadzik++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/topic-brainstorming:
20:12 dalek mu: Updated advent calendar ideas
20:12 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/d3e​1c88b721bce96fe1c238a70fbeb17f1dc8089
20:12 hudnix left #perl6
20:12 risou left #perl6
20:13 * masak massages the ethernet cord, trying to make the bits flow faster
20:14 MayDaniel joined #perl6
20:16 * tadzik is quite suprised looking at http://gil.di.uminho.pt/use​rs/smash/rakudo-bench.html
20:16 tadzik why the enormous jump on 2010.09?
20:17 tadzik seen smash
20:17 aloha smash was last seen in #perl6 4 days 4 hours ago saying "colomon: i'll try it later, the process takes hours to run.. thks".
20:17 tadzik my battery's getting dead
20:17 tadzik colomon, masak: feel free to msg me if you find out something funny. I'm our for now
20:17 masak tadzik: \o
20:18 tylercurtis joined #perl6
20:18 sorear hi tylercurtis
20:19 masak tylercurtis! \o/
20:19 sorear you just missed #phasers... moritz_ thinks I need a blog
20:20 masak +1
20:22 hudnix joined #perl6
20:22 masak it's comforting to see that do_nothing.p6 is actually trending downwards all the time. reaching 1s will be a big step.
20:24 dukeleto masak: i try to do nothing as quickly as possible all the time
20:24 dukeleto sorear: you do need a blog :)
20:24 dukeleto sorear: take a look at gitwrite.com
20:25 TobiOetiker[T7] left #perl6
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20:28 tylercurtis HHi, masak, sorear! Sorry for the slow reply. Building gcc in a vm doesn't seem to be friendly to my laptop's functioning.
20:28 masak :)
20:31 TimToady nature abhors a vm
20:32 masak perhaps nature prefers physical machines.
20:32 sjohnson OT q: anyone care about the Go language?
20:33 dukeleto sjohnson: define "care"
20:33 sjohnson thinks it might be worth learning / might be worthy of relacing C, etc
20:33 dukeleto sjohnson: i would like to see someone hacking on Go on Parrot. But that isn't going to be me.
20:33 masak sjohnson: I like it, and I'd like to use it some time, but frankly I don't do that kind of coding a lot.
20:34 masak sjohnson: closest I've got lately is writing Druid code in C. but that's partly because I wanted to learn C better.
20:34 sjohnson yeah i kind of want to learn C better too but i wonder if Go will be a better choice
20:34 sjohnson with C1X coming out (maybe), it looks like C will be good enough to stick around for decade(s) to come
20:35 masak sjohnson: it all depends what your goals are, I suppose.
20:35 masak sjohnson: languages aren't objectively better or worse than others.
20:36 sjohnson to give you an example, i hate writing stuff in JS and PHP, but i really enjoy writing in Perl
20:36 sjohnson i suppose i'm looking for the right application language, and dont really have the time to "Try em all out"
20:36 MayDaniel left #perl6
20:36 sorear go will fail for the same reason Plan 9 failed
20:37 sorear it's not a sufficiently compelling improvement
20:37 masak sorear: bad acting? :P
20:37 sorear C is good enough to block adoption of successors
20:37 masak sjohnson: try as many as you can.
20:38 * TimToady wonders why it's so hard to write applications in applicative languages...
20:38 sjohnson good point.  also, ive been reading a lot of experts say they think C++ is crap
20:38 sjohnson linus, rms, to name two
20:39 sjohnson .oO(wonders if TimToady doesn't like C++ too)
20:39 sjohnson either8
20:39 masak sjohnson: Erik Naggum didn't like C++ either. Steve Yegge doesn't like C++ either.
20:40 sjohnson i haven't heard one expert say that they think C is crap.  makes me wonder about C++
20:40 arnsholt masak: There was very much Naggum didn't like =)
20:41 sjohnson masak: this guy doesnt seem to like Perl much either
20:41 TimToady we had a goaround or two about Perl, in fact.  :)
20:41 masak TimToady: what, you and Naggum?
20:42 TimToady in fact, iirc, the oatmeal and fingernail clippings remark was in a reply to Erik :)
20:42 TimToady I could be misremembering
20:42 masak arnsholt: I still haven't figgered out how he manages to be so *angry* all the time without stepping over more lines than he does.
20:42 y3llow_ joined #perl6
20:43 sjohnson thanks masak, im checkin out yagge's thoughts
20:43 pothos_ joined #perl6
20:43 sjohnson TimToady: may i ask your expert opinion on C++?  *puppy dog eyes*
20:44 masak arnsholt: his distinguishing trait, however, is easy to identify. he simply runs circles around all his debating opponents. every time they try to up the ante, he just puts in a bit more effort and *crushes* them.
20:44 pothos left #perl6
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20:45 y3llow_ is now known as y3llow
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20:45 pothos joined #perl6
20:46 TimToady I misrembered, it was a reply to Tim Bradshaw
20:47 masak a lot of Erik's criticism of Perl seems to be out-of-date, or directed to a style of programming that I don't often see in Perl circles nowadays.
20:49 dalek rakudo: 4d33bae | masak++ | src/core/Cool-str.pm:
20:49 dalek rakudo: [Cool-str] fixed .trans case where @changes is []
20:49 dalek rakudo:
20:49 dalek rakudo: This un-breaks one of the tests in trans.rakudo.
20:49 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​4d33bae5919d08bcf2347b0e5a1e3eb49c67e426
20:49 masak that was an "oops, missed a spot" commit.
20:50 sorear C++ is a brilliant solution to the wrong problem
20:51 sorear if Bjarne had seen garbage collection coming, C++'s design would be a lot more relevant today
20:51 sjohnson if C++ had garbage collection, the language would shrink back down to the size of C
20:51 sorear sure, it's possible to retrofit a GC onto C++.  But a lot of C++'s features only make sense in the context of object lifetime tracking
20:52 takadonet left #perl6
20:52 masak sjohnson: if you haven't seen it yet: http://sites.google.com/sit​e/steveyegge2/tour-de-babel
20:53 sjohnson masak++ yeah i found this link after you told me his name
20:53 sjohnson it's pretty much exactly what i wanted to see
20:53 sjohnson people who aren't afraid to go on rants from time to time
20:53 masak sjohnson: he mentions C++ in other posts as well; never in a good context.
20:53 sorear other features I'd like to see in C++, partial list: * Parametric polymorphism * Metadata-based module imports
20:54 moritz_ sjohnson: http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/
20:54 sjohnson masak: how would i go about finding them?
20:54 * moritz_ like to see compile time type safety
20:55 masak sjohnson: easiest might be to just read everything he wrote. you probably won't regret it.
20:55 sorear moritz_: that's the only kind of type safety C++ has
20:56 moritz_ well, not in the sense that I would like
20:56 sjohnson thanks for everyones opinions
20:56 sjohnson i am finding the C++ pros/cons arguments very interesting
20:56 moritz_ when you instantiate a template class, you can get (and often do get) an error not at the instantiation location, but in the templated class
20:57 moritz_ which means that compiling the template class wasn't type safe
20:57 sorear ah
20:57 sorear that's really where I'm going with "parametric polymorphism"
20:57 * TimToady looks for a generic carpet to sweep generic problems under
20:57 sorear templates that are compiled once
20:58 sjohnson heh
20:58 moritz_ TimToady: my wife has announced interest in such a carpet, when you find one
20:58 dukeleto TimToady: i have a nice GenericPersianRug you can have
20:59 TimToady I suppose it came from a store that was going out of business generically?
20:59 flussence .oO( from a RugFactoryFactoryFactoryFactory... )
21:04 sjohnson moritz_: thanks for the link
21:08 KyleHa joined #perl6
21:08 Tene There are like three persian rug stores on the same street in downtown palo alto.
21:08 Tene Kind of weird.
21:08 BooK joined #perl6
21:09 masak Tene: there's got to be a pun in there somewhere.
21:12 TimToady they have the same street down in palo alto?  that really *is* weird...
21:12 TimToady especially since palo alto is up from here...
21:13 * TimToady wonders where palo soprano is...
21:14 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = (1,2,3); my $y = map {$^x * $^x}, $x; say $x.perl
21:14 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3)␤»
21:14 moritz_ shouldn't this be 9 ?
21:14 TimToady maybe if you print $y
21:14 Tene moritz_: you never assign to $x?
21:14 Tene well, s/never/once/
21:14 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = (1,2,3); my $y = map {$^x * $^x}, $x; say $y.perl
21:14 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«(9)␤»
21:14 moritz_ right, stupid me
21:15 TimToady std: my $x = (1,2,3); my $y = map {$^x * $^x}, $x; say $x.perl
21:15 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 123m␤»
21:15 TimToady hmm, I guess it only warns on unused parameters
21:15 masak programming is all about those little details :)
21:15 moritz_ std is kinda stoic about runtime behaviour :-)
21:15 moritz_ indeed
21:16 moritz_ I just wanted to bring some reality to a p6l discussion
21:17 TimToady std: my $x = (1,2,3); -> $y { say $x.perl }(map {$^x * $^x}, $x);
21:17 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  $y is declared but not used at /tmp/MEo93PPH1o line 1:␤------> [32mmy $x = (1,2,3); -> [33m⏏[31m$y { say $x.perl }(map {$^x * $^x}, $x);[0m␤ok 00:01 125m␤»
21:17 masak I've heard that when a p6l discussion is brought together with some reality, they both turn into photons.
21:18 TimToady I guess that rules out alphas and betas
21:19 colomon (backlogging) I think I've said it here before, but by far my biggest complaint about programming in C++ is that it is so insanely verbose.
21:20 colomon consider:  say "There were $count $items";
21:20 TimToady you should see COBOL++
21:20 colomon versus: std::cout << "There were " << count << " " << items << std::endl;
21:21 colomon or @array.sort
21:21 colomon versus std::sort(array.begin (), array.end ());
21:22 dju joined #perl6
21:22 colomon I wouldn't give you 10 cents for adding garbage collection to C++, but a tersification project would be awesome.
21:23 Tene colomon: C++ backend to rakudo, obviously.
21:23 toebu joined #perl6
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21:27 dju left #perl6
21:27 dju joined #perl6
21:33 sjohnson just got an email back from theo de raadt
21:33 sjohnson the only body in the email:  "c++ is a pile of crap."
21:34 ch3ck joined #perl6
21:35 sjohnson colomon: thanks for your input
21:35 sjohnson colomon: ++
21:36 sjohnson oops
21:36 masak sjohnson: what a delightful coincidence.
21:36 sjohnson colomon++
21:36 sjohnson masak: coincedence?
21:36 Guest6493 left #perl6
21:36 sjohnson you mean theo's reply?  i actually emailed him about an hour ago :]
21:36 masak sjohnson: actually, I'm assuming it wasn't.
21:36 sjohnson asking for his expert thoughts
21:37 masak and you got'em.
21:37 sjohnson oh ya
21:37 sjohnson im glad he replied
21:38 masak you should print the email, frame it, and put it on the wall.
21:38 masak your wall, I mean. not TimToady.
21:40 hudnix left #perl6
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21:41 mkramer moritz_: I'm trying to get a handle on how %-sigiled variables are made to unroll, and how they get they automatically get made into hashes
21:41 mkramer could you give me some direction for where to go in the source?
21:42 jaldhar left #perl6
21:44 mkramer in assign.pir I see that if a container isn't scalar then delgate to !STORE
21:45 sjohnson masak: :)  i might paste it to a blog i might start
21:45 sjohnson just my day-to-day musings in life i suppose
21:45 mkramer but what created .cont in the first place?
21:46 masak sjohnson: maybe it's high time you got a Twitter account.
21:46 hudnix joined #perl6
21:46 masak sjohnson: then you could write "Emailed Theo de Radt about his expert opinion on C++. Got back 'c++ is a pile of crap'"
21:46 moritz_ src/core/Hash.pm method !STORE (to mkramer)
21:47 sjohnson haha
21:47 sjohnson good call
21:47 hudnix left #perl6
21:47 mkramer moritz_: no, that's too late in the process.  I understand that assignment to a %var eventually delegated to Hash.!STORE, but by the type of assignment, anything with a %sigil is already a Hash
21:48 mkramer I want to find where in the source an LHV with a % becomes a Hash
21:48 mkramer *by the time of assignment
21:48 starcoder left #perl6
21:49 moritz_ mkramer: no, STORE is exactly where conversion to Hash happens
21:50 mkramer Why delegate storage to Hash.!STORE before the container is actually a hash?
21:50 timbunce joined #perl6
21:51 * moritz_ doesn't understand the question
21:51 moritz_ consider
21:51 moritz_ my %h;
21:51 moritz_ %h = <a b>;
21:51 moritz_ what happens is
21:51 moritz_ %h is being typed to Associative
21:51 moritz_ and intialiazed by the compiler with Hash.new
21:52 moritz_ for the second line, &infix:<=>(%h, <a b>) is called
21:52 moritz_ which delegates to %h.!STORE(\<a b>)
21:53 starcoder joined #perl6
21:53 moritz_ which in turn wipes its internal storage, and stores <a b> in the internal storage location
21:54 moritz_ still with me?
21:54 moritz_ ... apparently not
21:54 mkramer moritz_: I'm still here
21:54 mkramer trying to follow
21:54 moritz_ phrased differently, infix:<=> is coercive if the RHS has a sigil of @ or %
21:55 moritz_ and that coercion happens in method !STORE
21:55 mkramer what's the sigil of $object->method_returning_a_list?
21:56 moritz_ none
21:56 moritz_ you can't assign to a list
21:56 mkramer RHV's have sigils
21:56 moritz_ you can only assign to variables
21:56 moritz_ RHV?
21:56 pmichaud you can assign to a list
21:56 pmichaud it's called "list assignment", in fact :-)
21:57 moritz_ you take over then, pmichaud :-)
21:57 mkramer my $stuff = $object->list_method
21:57 pmichaud right now (unless it's changed during my "absence") rakudo does hash and array variable initialization incorrectly
21:58 masak don't think that's changed.
21:58 moritz_ mkramer: that still assigns to $-sigiled variable
21:58 pmichaud also, it's $object.list_method
21:58 pmichaud no arrow
21:58 mkramer bnahh sorry, perl5 on the brain
21:59 pmichaud currently,   my $stuff = $object.list_method   invokes list_method on $object, then itemizes the result and stores it in $stuff
22:00 moritz_ mkramer: I think what you're aiming at is that there's also a non-syntactic distinction between flattening and non-flattening things
22:00 moritz_ rakudo: sub a() { [1, 2, 3] }; sub b() { 1, 2, 3 }; .say for a; .say for b;
22:00 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤1␤2␤3␤»
22:00 mkramer Yes, that's one thing
22:01 mkramer Basically, I just don't understand sigls.  At all.
22:01 ch3ck left #perl6
22:01 mkramer I know what they *do*, I don't know how they do it
22:01 moritz_ with magic[tm].
22:01 pmichaud sigils on variables provide information about the variable
22:01 masak alpha: say elems 1, 2, 3
22:02 p6eval alpha : OUTPUT«3␤»
22:02 masak rakudo: say elems 1, 2, 3
22:02 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &elems␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/Lc556CVpUb␤»
22:02 masak pmichaud: fixing this in master is as simple as exporting some .elems method, right?
22:02 pmichaud masak: probably not
22:02 mkramer and since everything they do can also be done without the syntactic distinction, there must be some more fundamental process to which both @alists and $obj.list_method are subjected to get them to behave exactly the same way
22:02 pmichaud masak: probably needs a separate elems sub
22:02 masak pmichaud: ok.
22:02 pmichaud (see 'sort' and 'join' for comparison)
22:03 masak thanks, I will.
22:03 tylercurtis left #perl6
22:03 pmichaud mkramer: I disagree with the premise there (more)
22:03 moritz_ mkramer: internally, Rakudo uses a wrapping layer for distinguishing flattening and non-flattening things
22:03 pmichaud the syntactic distinction is significant
22:03 pmichaud @abc  flattens in a flattening context, while $abc does not
22:03 moritz_ rakudo: my $a = (1, 2, 3); say $a.PARROT; my @a = (1, 2, 3); say @a.PARROT
22:03 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«Perl6Scalar->Seq␤Array␤»
22:04 pmichaud that example is probably misleading.
22:04 pmichaud rakudo:  my $a := (1,2,3);  my @a := (1,2,3);
22:04 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9:  ( no output )
22:04 moritz_ pmichaud: feel free to provide a better one :-)
22:04 pmichaud rakudo:  my $a := (1,2,3);  my @a := (1,2,3);  .say for $a;   .say for @a
22:04 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤1␤2␤3␤»
22:04 pmichaud or, even more significantly:
22:04 moritz_ rakudo:  my $a := (1,2,3);  my @a := (1,2,3); say $a.PARROT; say @a.PARROT
22:05 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«ObjectRef->Parcel␤ObjectRef->Parcel␤»
22:05 * moritz_ doesn't understand the implementation at all
22:05 pmichaud rakudo:  my $a := (1,2,3);  my @a := $a;  .say for $a;  .say for @a;   say @a =:= $a;
22:05 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤1␤2␤3␤0␤»
22:05 pmichaud er
22:05 pmichaud rakudo:  my $a := (1,2,3);  my @a := $a;  .say for $a;  .say for @a;   say @a === $a;
22:05 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤1␤2␤3␤Bool::True␤»
22:05 pmichaud flattening and non-flattening cannot be determined strictly from the value of a container
22:06 pmichaud even in this last example, where $a and @a are in fact the same object, they end up with different behaviors in list context
22:07 mkramer Ok - that last example surprised me
22:08 pmichaud it needs to be that way so that the following works....
22:08 pmichaud rakudo:  sub abc(@a) { .say for @a; };   my $b := (1,2,3);  abc($b);
22:08 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
22:09 pmichaud when @a is bound to $b, it flattens in list context
22:09 masak pmichaud: according to which rule are some of those subs 'proto' and some 'multi'?
22:09 pmichaud masak: I don't know the answer to that one;   multi+proto changed on me and I haven't caught up to the new spec.  jnthn++ and/or colomon++ know the answer, I think.
22:09 sorear pmichaud: moritz_ thinks niecza needs a blog.  What should I use?
22:09 pmichaud sorear: whatever blog platform you're most comfortable with :-)
22:10 pmichaud I'm a fan of wordpress lately
22:10 masak pmichaud: I don't think Rakudo has changed in that regard.
22:10 sorear I'm not comfortable with any of them
22:10 pmichaud (based on the perl6advent calendar last year)
22:10 sorear In the lack of experience sense, not the "tried em, hated em"
22:10 pmichaud as soon as I come up with a name for my blog, I'll be setting it up on wordpress
22:10 pmichaud so, count me as a vote in favor of wordpress :-)
22:10 masak sorear: if you can guess some of your requirements in advance, we can give you more specific tips.
22:11 pmichaud so far I haven't been a fan of drupal
22:11 moritz_ sorear: what's more important for you, get goiing quickly, or have a system you really like?
22:11 pmichaud in my case, "system you like" would be more important, since you have to live with it longer :-)
22:12 pmichaud I keep thinking about rewriting my wiki software in p6, in which case I'd probably do something with that.
22:12 pmichaud but that's not likely to happen anytime soon, so I need "blogging software I like" sooner than I can write it :)
22:12 colomon rakudo is still on the old multi+proto designed from a year or so ago.  jnthn++ is working on the new one with his current "side" project.
22:13 pmichaud colomon: there's an even older multi+proto than the one rakudo is on
22:13 pmichaud I'm not caught up with the one it's currently on that explains how/when one uses proto.
22:13 * moritz_ -> sleep
22:13 colomon ah
22:13 masak I'm looking at the column of multis and protos, and I don't see the pattern.
22:13 sorear as a reader, I think most NIH blog engines are annoyingly limited
22:13 colomon masak: I'm not sure there is a real pattern.  where are you looking?
22:13 sorear cf the lack of comments and recently broken escaping in psyde
22:14 masak sorear: point taken.
22:14 sorear out of responsibility I'd rather user something established
22:14 masak sorear: broken escaping was totally my fault. I should have test coverage there, and I don't. psyde is still under construction and very much my own pet project. thanks for catching that one, by the way.
22:15 masak sorear: also note that I haven't recommended you use psyde :)
22:15 pmichaud masak: perhaps a good question is... if you weren't doing psyde, what would you use?
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22:15 masak phenny: tell tadzik that neutro bootstrap worked fine on my box.
22:15 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when tadzik is around.
22:16 * pmichaud is surprised how many positive comments there have been about the floss interview.
22:16 sorear my priorities are reasonably simple, well debugged, and supports sane standard blog behavior
22:16 masak pmichaud: I'm also partial to Wordpress. blog.perl.org looks good too. but I guess the real answer is that if I weren't doing psyde, I'd long for something very much like it. :)
22:16 pmichaud masak:  +1  :)
22:16 colomon masak: glancing at the end of Cool-str.pm as an example, I think I used "proto sub" and someone else use "multi" or "multi sub" and as far as I know, the choice was completely arbitrary.
22:16 pmichaud that's how I ended up with PmWiki :)
22:16 sorear feed generation, comments; if comments require authentication, it should be an established auth platform
22:17 masak colomon: good. that's consistent with what I'm seeing.
22:17 masak sorear: there have been problems with blog.perl.org -- I think Wordpress is the safer choice there.
22:17 risou joined #perl6
22:17 masak better, more centralized maintenance.
22:17 pmichaud although I'm normally partial to google-sponsored tools, I've not been that impressed with blogger either.
22:19 masak sorear: also, I don't know whether I should be flattered or slightly peeved at having psyde be taken as an example of a "NIH blog engine". NIH is, I guess, an accurate description. but reinventing the wheel is not my main objective -- exercising Rakudo is.
22:19 am0c^ left #perl6
22:21 mkramer rakudo: sub rlist{ (1,2,3) }; .say for rlist;
22:21 p6eval rakudo 2c66f9: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
22:22 mkramer flattening sans sigil
22:22 mkramer this is where I'm getting stumped
22:22 sorear mkramer: rlist() returns a flatteny thing
22:22 sorear expressions don't return values
22:22 pmichaud flattening tends to be the default behavior
22:23 pmichaud things don't flatten when they've been explicitly put into a scalar container of some sort.
22:23 sorear they return storage location  + flatteny bit + rwy bit
22:23 sorear the details of this vary a lot between compilers
22:23 flussence_ joined #perl6
22:24 pmichaud imo, the compiler details are as yet less interesting than what the spec requires
22:24 plobsing_ arthur-_: I can no longer reproduce the problem after running 'sudo ldconfig'. It loads the library and generates a thunk for 'ipttp' fine for me.
22:25 pmichaud std:  sub rlist{ (1,2,3); };
22:25 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
22:25 flussence left #perl6
22:25 mkramer a storage location + flatteny bit + rwy bit
22:26 mkramer Alright, now that is what I've been driving towards
22:26 mkramer a flatteny bit - there is one.  I knew there had to be something like that
22:26 pmichaud rakudo has a "don't flatten" bit
22:26 jnthn masak: I didn't follow the proto/multi question from earlier, but try asking me when I don't have such a headache. :)
22:27 * masak hands jnthn a mug of warm milk and honey
22:27 jnthn masak: If you want to play with the latest semantics though, grab NQP.Net, 'cus it's probably closest to correct on them, or at least the bits it implements.
22:27 jnthn It's also the only thing that is somewhat clueful about :U and :D too
22:27 jnthn o/ pmichaud
22:27 masak ooh
22:27 pmichaud o/ jnthn
22:27 jnthn pmichaud: How's things? Missed having you around. :)
22:28 pmichaud things are... so-so.  I'm in a tuit deficit.  :(
22:28 * sorear out
22:29 masonkramer left #perl6
22:29 mkramer Thanks for your kind attention, I'm out too
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22:30 masak &elems passes manual test. running spectests Justin Case.
22:30 fhelmberger left #perl6
22:30 jnthn So long as you don't run then Justin Beiber.
22:31 masak unless I run him 800% as slow.
22:31 hudnix left #perl6
22:33 jnthn Well, if you're using Rakudo... :P
22:33 hudnix joined #perl6
22:34 masak on the bright side, each Star release has gotten faster at doing nothing :)
22:34 masak we're down to 1.3 seconds now.
22:37 ch3ck joined #perl6
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22:47 jnthn masak: That's important to reduce too, since we have to do it a lot of times in the test suite. :)
22:48 pmichaud yes, I was a bit surprised (shouldn't have been) at how much spectest time was in startup.
22:49 pmichaud afk, dinner
22:51 whiteknight joined #perl6
22:51 masak it's important to reduce for almost every reason imaginable.
22:51 masak in fact, I'll go as far as to say that it's probably a great one-dimensional measure of how seriously the Rakudo team takes performance.
22:52 masak i.e. it sits at the cross-section of "probably not too hard" and "very important for PR"
22:53 jnthn masak: "not too hard"? :)
22:53 jnthn If we want to REALLY do well there we need the serialization stuff.
22:54 jnthn I promise you it's not easy. :)
22:54 Tene jnthn: yeah, the traditional "just wait while jnthn works on serialization" plan.
22:54 Tene Easy for everyone but you, so we just drop the outlier...
22:54 masak I didn't mean to trivialize anyone's efforts.
22:54 masak blog post! http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/​november-9-2010-this-is-an-ex-shogun
22:55 jnthn Tene: It's not the _only_ think that matters, and I very much encourage improvements. I just think that's the one thing that stands a chance of giving us the biggest improvement there.
22:55 Tene jnthn: agreed
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23:03 jnthn sleep &
23:03 masak 'night, jnthn. dream of kept voices and ache-free heads.
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23:33 ingy hi
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23:39 masak` is now known as masak
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23:59 dalek rakudo: e6486e5 | masak++ | src/core/Any-list.pm:
23:59 dalek rakudo: [Any-list] added &elems sub
23:59 dalek rakudo:
23:59 dalek rakudo: Old Druid code showed that this used to work in alpha. Adding it
23:59 dalek rakudo: back.

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