Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-11-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:06 dalek 6model: 0d13a6c | diakopter++ | / (4 files):
00:06 dalek 6model: [dotnet] implement coercive lt, le, gt, ge; add tests to 10-cmp.t
00:06 dalek 6model: update LHF.txt ;)
00:06 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/0d13a6cebc2fa21232a74c3029d7d83d90cbea6b
00:06 dalek roast: 91b1991 | KodiB++ | S12-construction/construction.t:
00:06 dalek roast: [construction.t] Added tests for an unreported bug fixed in Rakudo 037775eb.
00:06 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/91b19912f60b66acedae7f42a43c7d0b6173028f
00:06 dalek roast: b540d54 | KodiB++ | S (3 files):
00:06 dalek roast: Removed some Rakudo TODOs for passing tests.
00:06 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/b540d54c526fefc694329acae1a88d6c963c8904
00:06 dalek rakudo: 037775e | KodiB++ | src/builtins/ (2 files):
00:06 dalek rakudo: Tweaked Parcel.item.
00:06 dalek rakudo:
00:06 dalek rakudo: This fixes the regression in trans.t introduced by 5ce8fcf.
00:06 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/037775ebc6a7d6f2cf5835a4bd00e9099b3dcf22
00:07 diakopter moritz_: we could add a 6model backend now
00:07 diakopter now that basic control flow & comparisons & iterations work
00:07 diakopter moritz_: for p6eval, I mean
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01:00 lue y o hai o/
01:02 sjohnson HI
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01:23 ggoebel sorear: faster to compile and run sounds practical
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05:11 cxreg https://github.com/lopnor/p6-plackdo
05:19 jasonmay whoa
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06:05 cxreg any hints on making rakudo build against parrot.git?
06:05 cxreg Parrot revision r49711 required (currently r1)
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06:12 * cxreg short-circuits the check
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06:40 sorear good * #perl6
06:40 sorear cxreg: moritz_ is working on that
07:01 dukeleto cxreg: that is because we don't have a build system for HLL's yet that talks git fluently
07:02 dukeleto cxreg: but moritz had a way to comment out some code and get it to work. obviously we need a better solution
07:02 dukeleto cxreg: basically, disable that check, if you want to test Rakudo on the latest parrot
07:02 moritz_ once http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1845 is resolved, I know how to fix rakudo.
07:04 dukeleto moritz_: we currently have 2 scripts in tools/dev, create_language.pl and mk_language_shell.pl that generate the code that needs to be fixed
07:04 dukeleto moritz_: there is already a ticket for them, i just remembered. It is like a battlefield, with much bloodshed.
07:04 cxreg dukeleto: that's what i did
07:04 dukeleto cxreg++
07:05 dukeleto moritz_: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1491
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07:06 dukeleto moritz_: those tickets can almost be merged. If 1491 were fixed, 1845 wouldn't exist
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07:07 dukeleto moritz_: but it doesn't matter. we just need to get it to work
07:07 * moritz_ doesn't really see the relation
07:07 moritz_ 1491 is a pre-git ticket
07:08 dukeleto moritz_: yes.
07:09 dukeleto moritz_: the problem is we are maintaining 2 almost identical things that generate the code that 1845 needs to convert to git
07:09 dukeleto moritz_: what is the simplest possible thing that can work for Rakudo?
07:10 dukeleto moritz_: perhaps we should just try to get Rakudo building from parrot.git, and worry about the general case of those scripts after
07:10 moritz_ dukeleto: building from parrot.git is not a problem at all. Identifying too old revisions is.
07:10 dukeleto moritz_: perhaps we implement purely checking sha1's? and then describe strings after?
07:10 dukeleto moritz_: ah yes. which is the much more *interesting* issue
07:11 dukeleto moritz_: but you have to patch Rakudo right now to build on parrot.git, and that isn't optimal
07:11 moritz_ dukeleto: -1 to sha1s. It needs a parrot git repo to work
07:11 moritz_ it's not just not optimal. It's wrong.
07:11 dukeleto moritz_: i thought Rakudo devs usually worked against parrot git repos, to test the latest revs. Am I wrong about that?
07:11 moritz_ It's a regression.
07:12 dukeleto moritz_: can a regression exist in between developer releases?
07:12 dukeleto moritz_: in the sense of "define regression"
07:13 dukeleto moritz_: moving to git was more important to us that fixing those scripts, and we didn't have the resources to do everything at once.
07:13 moritz_ dukeleto: the point is that rakudo's Configure.pl checks for an existing parrot, and if the one that exists is too old, and the user asked for it, it can download parrot from git
07:13 * moritz_ doesn't need those scripts fixed.
07:13 dukeleto moritz_: awesome!
07:13 * moritz_ just needs a mostly linear revision number
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07:13 dukeleto moritz_: so you are only experiencing the "too old rev" problem, gotcha.
07:13 moritz_ right
07:14 dukeleto moritz_: if i provided you with a "git_describe" parrot_config key, would that give you mostly what you need?
07:14 moritz_ right
07:14 dukeleto moritz_: that is very doable.
07:14 moritz_ just like I wrote in TT #1845
07:15 dukeleto moritz_: i hear ya. I was trying to make life more complicated than it already is. I am quite good at that.
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07:33 zellio hrmm
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07:33 moritz_ hi
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07:35 zellio sorry about that, client troubles
07:38 * moritz_ -> $work
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07:39 zellio upon further reflection my question is better for #perl
07:39 zellio cheers all
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07:41 dalek niecza/moo: 0123456 | sorear++ | Hi:
07:41 dalek niecza/moo: xyz
07:41 dalek niecza/moo: review: https://github.comX
07:41 sorear sorear--
07:44 dalek niecza: 4045e2e | sorear++ | v6/tryfile:
07:44 dalek niecza: [v6/STD] get heredocs working
07:44 dalek niecza: review: https://github.comhttps://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/4045e2ebf9e31f5f46620311c44a12ef7ebb0410
07:44 dalek niecza: 9d97d25 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
07:44 dalek niecza: Implement LTM for role parameters
07:44 dalek niecza: review: https://github.comhttps://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/9d97d25aa78a913c4dd01ed6e6b2386b849e58d1
07:44 dalek niecza: 13cdb07 | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
07:44 dalek niecza: Fix heredoc tweaking
07:44 dalek niecza: review: https://github.comhttps://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/13cdb074f72c688e114c4a7d248124a08285b125
07:45 sorear IT WORKS.
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07:57 dukeleto sorear++
08:00 dalek mu: 6574f39 | sorear++ | misc/dalek-conf.json:
08:00 dalek mu: Remove all perl6/ and sorear/ from poll list
08:00 dalek mu: review: https://github.comhttps://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/6574f39721605713424b739bae763f41050bd98c
08:01 sorear everyone who can is now encouraged to migrate to push notifications
08:02 sorear they're much faster, use less resources, don't require a commit bit, and don't require you to list branches manually
08:02 sorear dalek announced that mu change less than 5 seconds after the push
08:02 sorear the post-commit URL to use is    {
08:02 sorear http://host04.appflux.net:5000/dalek?t=freenode,perl6
08:03 sorear if you want to hit >1 channel, use t=freenode,perl6&magnet,parrot or so
08:03 sorear er
08:03 sorear t=freenode,perl6&t=magnet,parrot
08:05 moritz_ sorear: could you please put those instruction in a file somewhere?
08:05 sorear Where
08:05 moritz_ mu repo if you have no better idea
08:06 sorear hmm, my web service is already getting hammered with requests for favicon.ico
08:06 moritz_ :-)
08:06 sorear perhaps this wasn't such a good idea :p
08:07 moritz_ if you have a range github IPs, you might filter by IP
08:08 moritz_ have you switched the repos under perl6/ to push?
08:08 moritz_ afk
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08:09 JimmyZ mu: review: https://github.comhttps://gith[…]bae763f41050bd98c the link is wrong
08:11 sorear moritz_: yes
08:11 dalek mu: 89628a7 | sorear++ | misc/dalek-push.txt:
08:11 dalek mu: [misc] Add preliminary documentation for dalek push
08:11 dalek mu: review: https://github.comhttps://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/89628a77c4b632cdf78b8839a370789e8d20ab5d
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08:19 dalek dalek-poller: 320e165 | sorear++ | push.psgi:
08:19 dalek dalek-poller: Try a better multichannel way (2)
08:19 dalek dalek-poller: review: https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller/commit/320e165a71e5861c31cce4a2441cff628b6b7473
08:19 dalek dalek-poller: ebba952 | sorear++ | push.psgi:
08:19 dalek dalek-poller: Try a better multichannel way
08:19 dalek dalek-poller: review: https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller/commit/ebba952b0e7b0dad8b7fcadc55d3af16a074d765
08:19 dalek dalek-poller: 51c6b9b | sorear++ | push.psgi:
08:19 dalek dalek-poller: Fix link generation for push mode JimmyZ++
08:19 dalek dalek-poller: review: https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller/commit/51c6b9bce3513b62723affe979df889c3d879813
08:20 dalek dalek-poller: a74c570 | sorear++ | push.psgi:
08:20 dalek dalek-poller: Try a better multichannel way (3)
08:20 dalek dalek-poller: review: https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller/commit/a74c5707cf9a97b517e3404e883bc7f741929713
08:20 dalek mu: c13a8ee | sorear++ | misc/dalek-push.txt:
08:20 dalek mu: [misc] Document working multichannel way
08:20 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/c13a8ee078fed722614b4618129e1e701f2aecf3
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08:34 sorear https://github.com/perl6/mu/blob/master/misc/dalek-push.txt
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08:58 moritz_ sorear++
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09:09 mavrc Hello.
09:09 sorear hi
09:16 dalek niecza: 4f676f7 | sorear++ | test (2 files):
09:16 dalek niecza: Add a test for dynamic method names
09:16 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/4f676f7e48576799155d240ad51b789041a07d9f
09:16 dalek niecza: 2c4b771 | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
09:16 dalek niecza: [v6] Add Stash.iterator
09:16 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/2c4b7711826dc223c685884538194b134a3dfc49
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09:51 diakopter sorear: that's super-cool
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09:58 masak oh hai, #perl6!
10:00 moritz_ \o masak
10:10 tadzik o/
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10:39 masak urgh, Gerd Pokorra suggests on parrot-dev that they simulate SVN commit numbers with a git commit hook. :(
10:39 masak sounds like SVN withdrawal syndrome to me.
10:41 flussence aargh
10:41 * moritz_ wonders how branch merges will affect that number
10:42 flussence if they want serial numbers, use the date!
10:42 masak or that number in describe.
10:42 flussence that too, though it's (intentionally?) harder to get at
10:43 moritz_ git-describe is much more robust
10:44 moritz_ if you take an old branch, and make one commit, you have a very new date
10:44 moritz_ (that was also a possible problem with svn branches)
10:46 masak nom &
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11:06 dd-sphere moin
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11:09 moritz_ http://blog.mathgladiator.com/2010/11/3-programming-languages-you-need-to.html
11:09 moritz_ nice idea
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12:46 nero__ Hello, there :)
12:47 tadzik hello nero__
12:47 nero__ I there something similar to qw on perl6
12:47 moritz_ sure
12:47 nero__ like @x=qw(1, 2,3)
12:47 moritz_ rakudo: say <a b c d>.join('|')
12:47 p6eval rakudo 037775: OUTPUT«a|b|c|d␤»
12:47 moritz_ it's even shorter than in p5
12:48 moritz_ also qw works, but not with () (because round parenthesis nearly always mean subroutine call)
12:48 moritz_ rakudo: say qw/a b c d/.join('|')
12:48 nero__ aha that's why rakudo was complain
12:48 p6eval rakudo 037775: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &qw␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/KqlGan_oP6␤»
12:48 moritz_ uhm, it seems that qw isn't implemented :(
12:48 nero__ I got the same error message
12:48 tadzik who cares, <> is funnier anyway :)
12:48 moritz_ alpha: say qw/a b c d/.join('|')
12:48 p6eval alpha : OUTPUT«a|b|c|d␤»
12:49 moritz_ it's a regression
12:49 * moritz_ submits bug report
12:50 nero__ thanks a lot moritz, BTW the book is awesome
12:50 tadzik moritz_: is it something that can be fixed messing with grammar only?
12:50 moritz_ nero__: you're welcome, and thanks. If there's anything unclear about the book, don't hesitate to tell us/me, so that it can be improved further
12:51 nero__ moritz_, sure
12:51 moritz_ tadzik: nearly, yes
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12:52 moritz_ it's probably just a call to quote_EXPR, and then an action rule that just says   make $<quote_EXPR>.ast;
12:53 moritz_ tadzik: see the rules for circumfix:sym<ang> and quote:sym<q> for example
12:56 tadzik there is q, qq, qx, qqx. I'll see if I can hack something out
12:56 moritz_ you'll need <quote_EXPR: ':q', ':w'>
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12:58 tadzik funny, I was just looking for something to code
13:00 tadzik where does STD.pm6 live?
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13:02 neroxx msg/ p6eval
13:02 tadzik qw/1 2 3/.join('|')
13:02 tadzik Method 'returns' not found for invocant of class 'Undef'
13:03 tadzik ah, I'll probably need some Actions too
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13:04 moritz_ right
13:05 moritz_ just  make $<quote_EXPR>.ast   should be enough
13:05 tadzik yeah, just looked at ang
13:06 tadzik yay, I'm fixing stuff
13:09 tadzik > qw/1 2 3/.join('|')
13:09 tadzik 1|2|3
13:09 moritz_ \o/
13:09 moritz_ spectest, submit patch, profit
13:10 masak tadzik++
13:10 tadzik right, spectests, I just wanted to ask about that.
13:10 tadzik I need to uncomment stuff or something?
13:11 moritz_ S02-literals/quoting.t
13:11 moritz_ 175:#?rakudo skip 'qw'
13:11 tadzik that's the spectest repo?
13:11 moritz_ right
13:11 moritz_ I just did
13:11 moritz_ cd t/spec/
13:11 moritz_ ack -w qw
13:12 tadzik I even have a commit bit there
13:12 tadzik will run the tests, send the patch and aquire glory and fame
13:13 moritz_ right; but it makes no sense to push your patch to the spectest repo before the rakudo patch is applied
13:14 tadzik yea. Can I run the spectests w/o having to pull from GH?
13:14 moritz_ yes
13:14 moritz_ perl t/harness --fudge --keep-exit-code --icu=1 --jobs --tests-from-file=t/spectest.data
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13:15 moritz_ or --icu=0 if you don't have ICU installed
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13:16 tadzik that will take a moment
13:16 moritz_ you can also use  --long=0  to skip some long running tests
13:16 moritz_ (that's what 'make quicktest' does)
13:17 tadzik it starts from S02 anyway, so it's not a problem. Also, I'm not in such a hurry, I'd rather make sure I didn't break anything
13:18 moritz_ will be your 5th rakudo patch
13:18 moritz_ we should start discussing giving you a commit bit
13:18 tadzik t/spec/S02-literals/quoting.rakudo ............................. ok
13:19 tadzik I can just create my fork, like KodiB did
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13:20 moritz_ well, it still requires a committer to review and merge your stuff, so in the long run it's less work for us to give you access
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13:22 tadzik I'd still feel better with my code being reviewed, at least for now
13:23 moritz_ that's ok
13:23 moritz_ that's why I said 'start discussing', not 'give you one right away' :-)
13:23 Kodi masak: With respect to http://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=78896: I disallowed Duration ** Int because Duration ** 2 is mathematically the same as Duration * Duration, which the spec forbids (S02:1343). Am I misunderstanding the spec?
13:24 tadzik sure :)
13:24 masak Kodi: I don't know, but personally I hope that we'll tend towards allowing things in this case.
13:25 Kodi masak: I suppose that if I do allow Duration ** Int, nobody will complain, and it's following at least one interpretation of S02.
13:25 masak aye.
13:29 flussence I'm sure someone will have a reason to want it, but relative units of measurement raised to powers don't make sense to me...
13:30 moritz_ flussence: you might want to calculate a geometric average over durations, for some reason
13:30 masak flussence: I wanted to calculate a standard deviation of a set of values that turned out to be Duration objects. standard deviation involves squaring.
13:30 flussence oh, yeah. :)
13:33 masak my general point is that it's OK to go around disallowing things and putting up idealized boundaries between things, unless you actually plan to use those things for, you know, reall stuff.
13:33 masak s/reall/real/
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13:34 moritz_ so are there some operations that actually make sense to disallow on Duration objects?
13:34 moritz_ if there are none, I'd suggest to make it a subclass of a numeric type, instead of a has-a relation
13:34 Kodi How would one intrepret sin(Duration)?
13:34 moritz_ Kodi: in terms of a power series
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13:35 Kodi (It actually is supposed to be a numeric type, not a has-a.)
13:35 masak I'm not even sure we need a Duration type, so I don't think I'm the right person to ask.
13:35 flussence well, Duration * Duration is nonsense, even if the .Int values are sensible...
13:35 masak what's the horrible use case we're trying to prevent here?
13:35 masak people *mistakenly* multiplying Durations?
13:35 Kodi My understanding is that the Real Point of having a Duration type is to keep the spec from forcing implementations to represent durations with a particular numeric type.
13:35 masak when does that happen?
13:35 moritz_ flussence: didn't we just give good examples for no-nonsense Duration * Duration usages?
13:36 moritz_ Kodi: then we can just spec it ~~ Real
13:36 Kodi moritz_: That's what we've got. I don't know the whole philosophy behind the operator restrictions.
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13:37 masak I'm officially representing the rebel group who wants to remove Duration and just put a Num or Rat in its place, representing number of seconds.
13:37 masak I think that'd be better in all ways.
13:37 flussence ++ to that.
13:37 Kodi I think FatRat would be preferable to either.
13:37 moritz_ what about Instant?
13:37 masak instant is fine.
13:38 masak it feels less like a number to me in the first place.
13:39 flussence .oO( things would be a lot simpler if someone went and measured the exact age of the universe, so we could all use absolute units... )
13:39 Kodi Looks like TimToady wrote the restrictions on Duration arithmetic. Perhaps we should ask him what his thinking was.
13:39 moritz_ flussence: no way. You forgot about relativity
13:41 flussence then we'd also need to know how far from the centre we are, and ... Whatever :(
13:41 moritz_ flussence: we're in the centre, of course
13:42 moritz_ flussence: the universe expanded, so the whole universe is what used to be the centre
13:42 masak flussence: my reflex is still to scowl when people start half-joking about Temporal. it's the only time I've kicked three people from this channel, when I was re-writing the Temporal spec, and people were goofing off about it.
13:42 tadzik . o O (a Star metamodule: just a deps.proto with Star modules)
13:43 Kodi Time is Serious Business.
13:43 tzhs left #perl6
13:44 masak here: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-04-04#i_2194094
13:45 * moritz_ notices that the logs don't record who was kicked
13:45 masak it was arnsholt, lue and slavik1.
13:46 moritz_ yes, I got that from the context
13:46 moritz_ but it's a good sign: it's such a rare operation here that I never optimized the logs for it :-)
13:47 masak :)
13:48 * moritz_ ordered a new laptop - and it actually got cheaper between my decision and ordering it
13:49 tadzik nice. Which one?
13:49 masak someone points out that Scala's startup time equals Rakudo's: http://twitter.com/__gfx__/status/2672047780012032
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13:49 moritz_ tadzik: a HP 625 Business
13:49 tadzik this gravar looks like a Mouse author
13:49 tadzik * gravatar
13:50 moritz_ (quite low-end actually, because a new bike is also forthcoming)
13:50 tadzik All tests pass, besides config.rakudo of course
13:51 tadzik oh crap, I didn't save that test file...
13:52 moritz_ you can rerun it with running the whole spectest
13:53 tadzik that's what I'm doing
13:54 tadzik hmm, quoting.rakudo is tested, and quoting.t is not
13:54 moritz_ as soon as fudge markers are present, rakudo runs the .rakudo file instead of .t
13:55 tadzik so nothing actually got tested? I don't get it
13:56 moritz_ it just took the .t file, ran it through fudge, and ran the resulting .rakudo file
13:57 tadzik oh, ok
13:57 tadzik looks like it passes, but I'll wait for the whole spectest
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14:18 tadzik a'right, tests pass with the new shiny qw//. Preparing a patch
14:19 dalek roast: bfcf5ed | (Kodi Arfer)++ | S02-builtin_data_types/instants-and-durations.t:
14:19 dalek roast: Allow Duration ** Int.
14:19 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/bfcf5ed2ff51da1e2b8f1189e729b02563e0ab49
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14:19 flussence on the Scala subject, Rakudo's startup time is more noticeable because people start it up more often :)
14:20 tadzik :>
14:20 moritz_ why?
14:20 flussence the JVM is complete overkill for shell one-liners :D
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14:21 flussence (someone will likely hit me in the face with a counterexample in the next 3 seconds...)
14:21 masak I wish Java had a default REPL. Beanshell sucks.
14:21 tadzik how do I reply to a perlbug? Replying to perl6-compiler@ won't work, will it?
14:22 masak tadzik: not in the sense of adding something to RT, no.
14:22 moritz_ just hitting reply-to in your mail client should work
14:22 moritz_ afaict RT monitors perl6-compiler
14:22 masak oh?
14:23 dalek rakudo: d9e2246 | KodiB++ | src/core/Duration.pm:
14:23 dalek rakudo: [core/Duration] Allow Duration ** Real.
14:23 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d9e22463479927fa8f1f594753979022de35970d
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14:24 tadzik Mail sent.
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14:55 moritz_ patch applied.
14:56 tadzik moritz_++
14:56 moritz_ tadzik++
14:56 tadzik shall I enable the tests in roast?
14:56 moritz_ please do
14:56 moritz_ even moar karma for you :-)
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14:57 tadzik :)
14:58 tadzik done
14:58 dalek roast: c3e7f27 | (Tadeusz Sośnierz)++ | S02-literals/quoting.t:
14:58 dalek roast: Enabled qw tests (implemented in Rakudo 3aa3c)
14:58 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c3e7f27b332fadbca715c95406ba9a895e6a4181
14:58 tadzik now why isn't it tadzik?
14:59 moritz_ because you're missing in CREDITS
14:59 moritz_ please submit another patch for that :-)
14:59 tadzik where do CREDITS live?
14:59 moritz_ in rakudo
14:59 dalek rakudo: 9b94551 | tadzik++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
14:59 dalek rakudo: Implemented qw
14:59 dalek rakudo:
14:59 dalek rakudo: Signed-off-by: Moritz Lenz <moritz@faui2k3.org>
14:59 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9b94551f4c8e1697074429cb75e46969404ab31c
15:00 tadzik duh, this prepare-send-apply cycle again :)
15:00 moritz_ I did talk about a commit bit, didn't I? :-)
15:00 tadzik yeah :)
15:01 moritz_ I can add you to CREDITS if you wish
15:01 tadzik and get the karma? No way :)
15:02 tadzik https://gist.github.com/672606
15:02 tadzik OTOH, it wouldn't look so... what is that word
15:03 moritz_ honest?
15:03 tadzik heh, I meant the negative term. Describing "look, I'm so awesome I'm adding myself to CREDITS"
15:03 moritz_ tadzik: fwiw, I prefer present tense in commit mesages ("Add myself" instead of "Added myself"), but that's only a minor nit
15:04 tadzik will keep that in mind
15:04 moritz_ tadzik: I know what you mean. But CREDIT entries actually do help with keeping an overview, and since you did contribute stuff, you're not an imposter :-)
15:05 dalek rakudo: d859644 | tadzik++ | CREDITS:
15:05 dalek rakudo: Added myself to CREDITS
15:05 dalek rakudo:
15:05 dalek rakudo: Signed-off-by: Moritz Lenz <moritz@faui2k3.org>
15:05 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d8596445b096be99106e86238c8febcdc07585a5
15:05 moritz_ modesty is so imprinted in us that we exaggerate a bit from time to time
15:05 tadzik alright :) Btw, isn't that Impostor?
15:05 moritz_ probably
15:05 tadzik or it could be in-poster :)
15:08 tadzik alright, I'm out for today. See you!
15:08 moritz_ ciao
15:10 masak tadzik: I think the word is "boastful". and adding oneself to the CREDITS file is not that.
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17:26 * masak is still chuckling at moritz_++' "9 other types" punchline
17:27 colomon_ ;)
17:27 masak I have a soft spot for derivative-joke punchlines.
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17:41 masak nom &
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17:41 patrickas o/
17:43 dukeleto So a two functions walk into a bar...
17:44 patrickas dang I missed masak by a few seconds !
17:44 dukeleto The bartender says "Watch out!" There is a derivative operator on the loose! He is going around differentiating everything he sees!
17:45 dukeleto The consant function ran and hid in the bathroom, because he didn't want to become the zero function
17:45 neroxx rakudo: my @x=<foo bar bazar>.join('-'); say @x;
17:45 p6eval rakudo d85964: OUTPUT«foo-bar-bazar␤»
17:45 dukeleto The derivative operator busts thru the front door and says "I differentiate you!", but the other function says "Whatever, I am e^x, i don't care"
17:46 neroxx rakudo: my @x=<foo bar bazar>; for @x -> $n {say $n.join('-');}
17:46 p6eval rakudo d85964: OUTPUT«foo␤bar␤bazar␤»
17:46 dukeleto And then the derivative operator says "Yeah, but I am df/dy!".
17:46 * dukeleto stops.
17:47 neroxx is join is not working while on loop ? or I'm doing something wrong ?
17:47 patrickas neroxx the loop is taking each element
17:47 patrickas and doing a join on it
17:48 neroxx but the output don't have the (-) join
17:48 patrickas rakudo: my $n='foo'; say $n.join('-');
17:48 p6eval rakudo d85964: OUTPUT«foo␤»
17:49 neroxx the square character is my - ?
17:49 patrickas neroxx no
17:49 patrickas join will put - between two elements, you only have one element
17:50 patrickas the square charater is a newline that your font probably does not support
17:50 neroxx ah I see, so this should be like this my @x<foo bar bazar>.join('-')
17:51 neroxx rakudo: my @x= <foo bar bazar>.join('-'); say @x;
17:51 p6eval rakudo d85964: OUTPUT«foo-bar-bazar␤»
17:52 patrickas yes
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18:02 neroxx where I can found documentation for p6 core modules ?
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18:07 patrickas by p6 core modules do you mean http://modules.perl6.org/ ? If so n the github page of each module.
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19:09 moritz_ next time somebody asks about core modules, point them to http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/how-core-is-core.html
19:11 dukeleto maybe we need to start talking about onion modules, since onions don't have cores, and the Perl community is a fractal onion, according to TimToady
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19:47 direction ... so perl6 is ready to use just not adopted yet?
19:47 lue ohayo o/
19:47 direction mornin
19:48 direction according to the status page, the only problem i might run into is Threading
19:49 PerlJam direction: ready to use for some purposes, not for others.
19:50 direction anything noteworthy that its not ready for besides threading?
19:50 direction is there a timeline / schedule for perl6 completion?
19:51 PerlJam There's no schedule for completion because that concept doesn't make enough sense
19:51 PerlJam For instance, is Perl 5 "complete"?  (no, it's not)
19:51 direction ok i mean widespread release
19:52 direction and widespread adoption
19:52 PerlJam Um ... it's available for "widespread release" right now  :-)
19:52 direction yea thats why i said the latter
19:52 PerlJam Adoption we can't control as that's up to the users.
19:53 simon I like the "use v6;" convention.
19:54 molaf left #perl6
19:56 PerlJam A more useful question might be "When will a Perl 6 implementation be developed to a level that's comparable to other languages like Python, PHP, Ruby, Haskell, etc.?"   Unfortunately, I really don't have an answer to that question either.
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19:59 PerlJam I suppose the answer is: when there are enough people using Perl 6 that we're able to flesh out all of the details of the spec and foibles of implementation.
20:10 takadonet hey all
20:10 direction hi
20:11 * direction peace out (^_~)
20:12 sorear good * #perl6
20:12 takadonet sorear: yo
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20:18 sorear moritz_: the CREDITS file that matters is the one in the Parrot repository
20:20 sorear neither tadzik nor KodiB have CREDITS lines
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20:20 masak ahoy!
20:20 takadonet masak: hey!
20:20 masak great to see you all. again.
20:21 frettled masak: o/
20:21 takadonet masak: were you gone long?
20:21 masak nah, just for nom.
20:21 frettled hours!
20:21 masak potato pancakes! mmm.
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20:29 masak (with lingonberry jam, sour cabbage and Turkish yoghurt)
20:31 takadonet nice
20:31 masak and super-simple to make.
20:42 lue hai masak o/
20:42 masak lue! \o/
20:43 dalek specs: ad8e423 | TimToady++ | S05-regex.pod:
20:43 dalek specs: [S05] now use :Foo and :Foo<Bar> for uniprops
20:43 dalek specs:
20:43 dalek specs: The old isFoo notation was fragile and could not easily extend to Unicode
20:43 dalek specs: properties with values.  We'll use pair notation instead.  The match of
20:43 dalek specs: a pair value is via smartmatch, so both string and numeric comparisons
20:43 dalek specs: are available, for instance.
20:43 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/ad8e4234c219c6ef581690e97eaf7e00608c2d9b
20:43 lue did you catch my pull request on Tardis?
20:44 sorear oooh!
20:44 PerlJam TimToady is really making use of that colon.
20:44 takadonet PerlJam: i think he likes it
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20:49 masak lue: hm, haven't seen a pull request. just the diff you sent along, which I commented on.
20:50 sorear has rakudo/* been moved to push yet?
20:51 masak the pair syntax seems to work for uniprops. in some sense it's a bit arbitrary, but on the other hand it seems to map well onto what it's describing.
20:51 diakopter .beats
20:51 phenny @910
20:51 diakopter oh; whatevs
20:52 sorear masak: %hash ~~ :key<value> = %hash<key> ~~ value
20:52 sorear masak: it's sort of like the characters are being interpreted as their property hash
20:53 masak I'll consider that a strangely consistent rationale :)
20:55 * lue considers asking what uniprops are and how the isFoo notation was used, but fears the "look at the specs" answer
20:57 masak lue: that's nothing to fear. when you get a "look at the spec" answer, it's because we want to help you reach enlightenment by the quickest way possible, and the spec is the best start on that road.
20:57 huf you mean you'd like to set him on fire, right?
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20:58 PerlJam huf: no, we'd like him to set himself on fire.
20:58 PerlJam repeatedly.
20:58 huf oh, even better!
20:59 huf i guess that's the free software methodology
20:59 patrickas re o/
20:59 lue I considered asking, but then I realized the most likely answer and stopped myself (but apparently that didn't stop me from talking about what I almost did. Hmm)
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21:01 masak lue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophasis
21:02 patrickas masak ready to be distracted ?
21:02 masak patrickas: bring it on! :)
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21:21 lue ololiblog: https://rdstar.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/yapsi-and-tardis/
21:22 * masak reads
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21:22 dalek dalek-poller: 95a85a7 | sorear++ | push.psgi:
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: Fix handling of defined-or with arrays
21:22 dalek dalek-poller:
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: // puts the left side into scalar context, so @{foo} // () is wrong.
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: Changed it to @{ foo // [] }.
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: review: https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller/commit/95a85a764421a0888370205a82030eab667c623e
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: efec941 | bacek++ | push.psgi:
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: Rename IGNORE into OK and always return it.
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: review: https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller/commit/efec9417c98525225ab56d2e2c31d711a78c5e05
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: 95e4263 | bacek++ | push.psgi:
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: Reindent code.
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: review: https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller/commit/95e4263c333f2234715d0223656e146d2efc07da
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: fd5ea6b | bacek++ | push.psgi:
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: Simplify (and speed-up) creating of @files list.
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: review: https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller/commit/fd5ea6bbd11759aa5b6cea0d641ad77505aacade
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: 92fab84 | bacek++ | push.psgi:
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: Use space after C<if>
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: review: https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller/commit/92fab84657f4b9bd685f055d9573278a5a377520
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: ac797df | bacek++ | push.psgi:
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: Use constant to return constant response.
21:22 dalek dalek-poller: review: https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller/commit/ac797df05b3cf0987f52c99d6935e6ef1338562f
21:22 * PerlJam reads too
21:23 masak lue: you're right in that Yapsi has a much lower threshold for starting to contribute.
21:24 dalek dalek-poller: ee0aebc | sorear++ | push.psgi:
21:24 dalek dalek-poller: Fix backward message output
21:24 dalek dalek-poller:
21:24 dalek dalek-poller: GitHub-- for wrong documentation. :/
21:24 dalek dalek-poller: review: https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller/commit/ee0aebc3f65be7dc395a5409c59d73bd3df2dc84
21:24 masak I think the main reason for that is that it sits at ~500 lines of code.
21:25 PerlJam masak: and fewer conceptual hurdles to leap
21:26 masak right. fewer everything, really. features, layers of abstraction...
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21:28 PerlJam Well, I meant that to hack Rakudo, you have to know all sorts of things ... Perl 6, PIR, C, how these things interact, where the dragons in the existing code are, etc.
21:28 masak nod.
21:30 patrickas PerlJam: unless you are lucky to find things where you don't need all that .. then working on rakudo feels just like working on Yapsi (from my very minor working on rakudo experience)
21:31 PerlJam I think that's the limiting factor for Rakudo contributors actually.   Even if you start off hacking on a "pure Perl" problem, you can quickly run into dragons without realizing it.
21:31 PerlJam (until it's too late :)
21:32 sorear You think hacking Perl 5 might be easier?  It's 100% C
21:32 masak to Rakudo's credit, it's becoming easier to hack with every rewrite :)
21:32 PerlJam masak: indeed
21:33 lue I don't think I didn't try, but Rakudo is just so complex, and there's nothing really easy to do (even the LHF, in my experience, requires you know *something* about the codebase)
21:35 lue Or, perhaps the real problem is not that the codebase is too complex, but that there's no Hitchhiker's Guide for it.
21:37 PerlJam lue: perhaps
21:38 masak lue: I feel your pain. I would hack more on Rakudo as well if I found it more approachable.
21:38 masak it's not so much that I can't do it, as that it's not a good short-term investment of my time.
21:38 PerlJam masak++ that's *exactly* how I feel.
21:39 masak PerlJam: and I'm just dressing what lue wrote in my own words :)
21:39 PerlJam Well, I like your words  :)
21:39 masak \o/
21:39 sorear lue: help me to write a Hitchhiker's Guide to the niecza codebase
21:40 masak lue: yes! become a niecza contributor!
21:42 * moritz_ back
21:42 lue That's a good idea. I've always thought of a Perl 6 documentation repository.
21:44 PerlJam lue: I wouldn't help sorear.  That was an almost godwinian way he brought up Perl 5 earlier   ;-)
21:46 PerlJam Though, if there were a HHGTN, that would increase the odds that "occasional hackers" like myself participate.
21:46 masak same here.
21:47 masak I *want* to participate in niecza. but I don't see a good way in. some documentation would help.
21:47 sorear I think I could write one better if I knew what people were looking for
21:49 lue I should really start on my POD parser to go with this vision of a document repo. [Believe me, I've planned this whole documentation thing more than I'm letting on.] Now that I think about it, documentation is the most pleasing to me, seeing as it isn't there.
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21:50 lue &afk; # nom time, afterwards I'll start fleshing out these ideas more.
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22:01 sidek are there any tutorials for perl 6? I found one but it was half in German.
22:01 sidek and, although I know basic german, I know BASIC german
22:02 PerlJam sidek: there are all sorts of resources on perl6.org
22:02 sidek thanks
22:02 moritz_ chances are the tutorial you found was from me (or lichtkind)
22:03 sidek it was on perlfoundation and looked like it was in the process of being translated
22:03 PerlJam lichtkind
22:03 sidek alright
22:03 moritz_ mine are on perl-6.de
22:03 takadonet sidek: You can ask questions here any time
22:04 moritz_ though I haven't been writing about Perl 6 in German for a year or so
22:04 sidek thanks for the offer, takadonet. I know quite a bit of perl 5, though, so hopefully I'll be fine
22:04 moritz_ the audience is just too small
22:04 dalek niecza: 2e15054 | sorear++ | docs/compiler.pod:
22:04 dalek niecza: Add some overview of the compiler IRs
22:04 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/2e150542ee85032a88367abb7bbdf3eabc29b381
22:05 PerlJam moritz_: just the two of you?  :)
22:05 moritz_ PerlJam: no, more than that, but still not enough
22:06 takadonet sidek: Looks like we are in the same boat
22:07 * direction jumps on that boat
22:08 PerlJam Perl 6 does make more sense if you shift your thinking slightly away from perl-5-think and slightly towards haskell-think
22:08 takadonet PerlJam: never wrote a single line of Haskell... yet
22:09 PerlJam s/haskell/lisp-or-scheme-but-without-the-parens/  then  :)
22:09 * direction happens to be writing LISP as we speak
22:10 PerlJam takadonet: I didn't even really know haskell existed until pugs came along.  Now it's my favorite of the FP languages.
22:10 PerlJam direction: you have my condolences  :)
22:11 direction eh its not so bad after you write a few thousand lines
22:12 sorear ugh, LISP
22:12 direction i write it in C-style then it gets converted to LISP style
22:12 sorear who still uses LISP?
22:12 direction Texas Instruments
22:12 PerlJam sidek: all those emacs fans
22:12 PerlJam er, sorear
22:13 sidek I use lisp :(
22:13 sidek and haskell
22:13 moritz_ lots of people use lisp. Lots of people use C. Lot's of people use Perl.
22:13 * masak wants to use Lisp more
22:13 sorear Lisp is one thing
22:13 sorear LISP is something else entirely
22:13 sidek well, I use scheme
22:13 sidek but meh
22:14 sidek it's a LISP
22:14 PerlJam masak: there's something deeply wrong with you
22:14 sorear elisp is closer to LISP than Lisp; I'm trying to remember where it ranks
22:14 masak PerlJam: I've learned to accept that. you should, too.
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22:19 * moritz_ is fascinated by people with whom something's deeply wrong
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22:45 Tene I'd also like to use lisp more.  I had a lot of fun writing a scheme compiler for parrot.
22:46 simon hehe
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23:16 diakopter moritz_: then you're fascinated by everybody ;)
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23:17 masak diakopter: that's the most dystopian I've ever seen someone add a winking smiley to.
23:19 diakopter dystopian, or theologically mainstream globally
23:19 masak that is true.
23:20 masak I like how in ancient China, there essentially was one philosophical school arguing that people were fundamentally good-natured, and one school arguing that people were fundamentally rotten.
23:21 masak and that nurture and society pulled people in the respective other direction.
23:22 diakopter too bad the respective camps' definitions of "good" and "rotten" probably didn't align very perfectly :D
23:22 diakopter let alone "nurture/society" vs "fundamentally"
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23:23 masak I'm not sure I'm relaying this thousand-years-ago piece of history with total fidelity, mind.
23:24 sorear closer to 2300
23:25 masak I can't even get the dates right :P
23:25 masak yes, 300 BCE.
23:25 masak blog post! http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/november-11-2010-avast
23:25 diakopter I wonder when the Uncommon Era will begin
23:26 dalek niecza: 4c09c28 | sorear++ | / (5 files):
23:26 dalek niecza: Implement computed method names in generic roles
23:26 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/4c09c2852d1b202147ca304594dfeebdbfea5f67
23:28 hercynium left #perl6
23:29 masak the "two languages, same family" meme spotted in a Japanese blog: http://www.publickey1.jp/blog/09/perl5perl6perl2.html
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23:39 dalek std: fc30a21 | TimToady++ | STD.pm6:
23:39 dalek std: [STD] add colonpair as valid cclass_elem
23:39 dalek std:
23:39 dalek std: In line with recent S05 change, <:foo['bar']> and such are now allowed
23:39 dalek std: as valid character class designators, along with <alpha> and <[0-9]>.
23:39 dalek std: The colon forms are always taken as Unicode properties.
23:39 dalek std: review: https://github.com/perl6/std/commit/fc30a21686c20b598376cc547b6d78592706df10
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23:41 colomon_ is now known as colomon
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23:43 sorear TimToady++
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23:44 diakopter TimToady: what about variable properties ...  <:foo[$scalr]>
23:46 sorear diakopter: <:foo($scalr)>
23:47 sorear it's just a [ :lang(%*LANG<MAIN>) <colonpair> ]
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23:57 sorear STD 20101111 pushed to CPAN
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