Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-11-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:03 Tene masak: I work at imvu.  We're hiring.  :)
00:03 masak :D
00:06 diakopter masak: I think that was a year ago or more
00:06 diakopter before sara ford & sam ranji left
00:07 diakopter ramji
00:07 timbunce left #perl6
00:08 masak diakopter: I'm not familiar with those two names.
00:08 diakopter codeplex folks
00:08 diakopter open-source advocates
00:08 masak ok.
00:09 masak still feel I'm missing some context.
00:09 diakopter (I'm guessing they were his contacts)
00:09 kulp left #perl6
00:09 Tene We very much need another sysadmin on the ops team here, so if anyone's looking for work in sfbay, lemme know.
00:10 diakopter Tene: hey um u not fair; we need like 4
00:10 diakopter (halfway between sf & san jose)
00:10 Tene diakopter: we have 4 total right now.
00:11 diakopter $1x0k/year & great bonuses/benefits to the best-qualified
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00:20 TimToady there is a long history in English of referring to a set of requirements as either 'the specification' or 'the specifications'; requiring one or the other is mere shibbolethery, in my opinion
00:21 TimToady see for instance definition 2a of http://education.yahoo.com/referen​ce/dictionary/entry/specification
00:21 TimToady or google for "the specs" and ignore the rock band :)
00:21 masak I see. then I'll stop kvetching about it.
00:22 * diakopter keeps trying not to read shibbolethery as shibbolechery, but fails
00:22 TimToady a spec is a fractal group of self-similar specs, it the semantic problem...
00:22 TimToady *is
00:22 TimToady at least we can have a spec if we want, unlike a "semantic" :)
00:23 masak I got the feeling, up until I saw the repository name, that the community tradition was to refer to "the synopses" (plural) but "the spec" (singular).
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00:25 sjohnson TimToady: maybe p6 should use a "plan" instead
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00:34 colomon masak: have you tested rakudo with the latest parrot?
00:35 masak colomon: I believe so. will perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot test with the latest parrot?
00:35 masak because I just ran the spectests that way.
00:36 colomon huh.
00:36 colomon no, --gen-parrot is getting parrot 2.9.1
00:36 colomon we need parrot 2.10.1, right?
00:39 TimToady did they really just make a new release for "perl Configure.pl" noise?  Somehow this seems...sorry...laughable, given all the rest of the spewage
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00:46 * TimToady wonders if 1 => 2 => 3 -> ... should be taught to iterate like a lisp programmer would expet
00:46 TimToady *ct
00:46 TimToady seems like it would be pretty trivial
00:50 sjohnson just another perl 6 hacker
00:52 sjohnson just another lisp hacker actually
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01:24 masak 'night, #perl6.
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02:03 dalek rakudo: 32c08e3 | colomon++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
02:03 dalek rakudo: Allow operators like infix:<..> to autocurry when passed a WhateverCode argument.
02:03 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​32c08e3fe1f4fcefe885d109f08fdbd44adcb37f
02:03 dalek rakudo: 019c864 | colomon++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
02:03 dalek rakudo: Rewrite right-hand WhateverCode currying to work around the bizarre $counter + $right.arity error.
02:03 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​019c864e8bac2f93be90824471bc23df6f70df9a
02:10 lichtkind rakudo: @a = 1..9; @b = @a[3&5&8];@b
02:10 p6eval rakudo 015d77: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '@a' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/altLX4rbrg:22)␤»
02:10 lichtkind rakudo: my @a = 1..9; @b = @a[3&5&8];@b
02:10 p6eval rakudo 015d77: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '@b' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/Rn2OV6eJXF:22)␤»
02:10 lichtkind rakudo: my @a = 1..9; my @b = @a[3&5&8];@b
02:10 p6eval rakudo 015d77:  ( no output )
02:10 lichtkind rakudo: my @a = 1..9; my @b = @a[3|5|8];@b
02:11 p6eval rakudo 015d77:  ( no output )
02:11 lichtkind rakudo: my @a = 1..9; my @b = @a[3;5;8];@b
02:11 p6eval rakudo 015d77:  ( no output )
02:11 lichtkind rakudo: my @a = 1..9; my @b = @a[3,5,8];@b
02:11 p6eval rakudo 015d77:  ( no output )
02:11 lichtkind rakudo: my @a = 1..9; scalar @a
02:11 p6eval rakudo 015d77: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &scalar␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/_tMbFRG1xM␤»
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02:12 lichtkind rakudo: my @a = 1..9; + @a
02:12 p6eval rakudo 015d77:  ( no output )
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02:25 colomon rakudo: my @a = 1..9; my @b = @a[3,5,8]; say @b
02:25 p6eval rakudo 015d77: OUTPUT«469␤»
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02:27 colomon anyone out there know how the build/PARROT_REVISION file works now?
02:28 colomon RELEASE_2_9_1-261-g495feaf is what it is currently set at
02:29 colomon the RELEASE_2_9_1 part seems clear enough, and I assume g495feaf is the beginning of the git hash for the revision
02:29 colomon but what's the 261?
02:30 colomon oooo, wait, what's config/auto/git_describe.pm?  That sounds promising....
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02:52 * colomon wishes he understood the new build/PARROT_VERSION version number system.  What a stupid obstacle to testing the latest parrot with rakudo....
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03:06 colomon rakudo: sub a(&b) { say &b.arity }; a(*+1)
03:06 p6eval rakudo 015d77: OUTPUT«1␤»
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03:16 dukeleto colomon: what is your issue?
03:17 colomon I need to update build/PARROT_REVISION to the latest Parrot release.  But after the git changes, I've got no idea how to do that.
03:17 dukeleto colomon: the 261 is how many commits past the tag it is, and 495feaf is the beginning of the sha1, g is for 'git'
03:17 dukeleto colomon: moritz_ wrote the code, he probably has it already
03:17 colomon alas, I suspect moritz_ is asleep
03:17 dukeleto colomon: he wrote the rakudo side of things
03:17 dukeleto colomon: are you release manager?
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03:18 colomon nope, that's masak, also asleep
03:18 colomon but getting rakudo up on the Parrot release is an important pre-release activity.
03:18 dukeleto colomon: so what are you trying to do with PARROT_REVISION ?
03:19 colomon figure out how to bring it to 2.10.1
03:19 colomon is there a way to automatically generate the version string?
03:20 colomon ....
03:20 colomon or should it be RELEASE_2_10_1-0-hash?
03:20 colomon that seems easy enough
03:21 colomon so maybe the question becomes, what's the hash of the release?
03:26 colomon RELEASE_2_10_0-0-c4477dd2 does not work.  :\
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03:41 dukeleto colomon: i don't understand what you are asking
03:41 dukeleto colomon: you want the sha1 of our latest release? 2.10.1 ?
03:42 colomon that would be great
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03:43 dukeleto $ git rev-parse RELEASE_2_10_0
03:43 dukeleto 80d156ef8b867e29750211ec97d675ee1529d40b
03:43 dukeleto someone forgot to push a tag for 2.10.1, it seems. I will look into that.
03:43 dukeleto colomon: git rev-parse is your friend
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03:44 colomon dukeleto++
03:46 dukeleto colomon: you can also just do "git rev-parse HEAD" to get the sha1 of whatever master points to in the parrot repo
03:48 dukeleto colomon: you can give rev-parse any branch name, tag or "commitish"
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04:02 colomon rakudo: sub a(&b) { say &b.count }; a(*+1)
04:02 p6eval rakudo 015d77: OUTPUT«1␤»
04:03 colomon rakudo: sub a(&b) { say &b.count }; a(*+*)
04:03 p6eval rakudo 015d77: OUTPUT«2␤»
04:07 colomon rakudo: say 4 xx  5
04:07 p6eval rakudo 015d77: OUTPUT«44444␤»
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04:23 colomon phenny: tell masak I wasn't able to figure out how to set Rakudo to use the latest Parrot.  On the plus side, I have a patch to make @a[*-3..*-1] work spectesting now.  Please don't release until I can check it in.  :)
04:23 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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05:27 dalek std: bb56d4e | TimToady++ | CORE.setting:
05:27 dalek std: [CORE] add roll, set, and bag
05:27 dalek std: review: https://github.com/perl6/std/commit/bb​56d4ee5e662ac3af6f7f8dc62ec43b6a4d8f3d
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05:46 colomon phenny: tell masak The @a[*-3..*-1] patch is pushed.
05:46 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
05:48 dalek rakudo: f8f556e | colomon++ | src/core/Any-list.pm:
05:48 dalek rakudo: Support code blocks with arity > 1 in Any.postcircumfix:<[ ]>.
05:48 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​f8f556eed1f1a8356f7dc7b7fe5b2cc5daa74e0d
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07:19 sorear good * #perl6
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07:24 dalek roast: 12982c8 | TimToady++ | integration/weird-errors.t:
07:24 dalek roast: time() will eventually fail at compile time
07:24 dalek roast:
07:24 dalek roast: missing subs need to be in eval_dies_okay
07:24 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1​2982c8ae151f114e543d7811845b1c475be5d1a
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07:45 sorear Ick, eval
08:01 moritz_ eval is a very useful tool.
08:09 * sorear is thinking that the way to a faster tryfile start is to slim down CORE.syml
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08:22 sorear TimToady: What was the connection between $¢.<foo>:delete and multidimensional array subscripts?
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09:15 sorear STD keeps breaking for no reason when I try to remove stuff from $ALL :/
09:25 dalek niecza: 048dc16 | sorear++ | v6/tryfile:
09:25 dalek niecza: [v6] Prune sub pads from CORE.syml for a much faster start
09:25 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/​048dc16d6ca1aeeea121261155660acda608597b
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09:26 david____ i know i am not the first that ask this question
09:26 david____ but when will be the official release of perl 6
09:26 david____ which year ?
09:26 david____ the first production release
09:26 moritz_ when it's done
09:26 david____ :-)
09:26 david____ ok
09:27 moritz_ I'm serious. There's no good way to plan volunteer's work in an unexplored territory
09:27 david____ yes
09:27 david____ you are correct
09:27 moritz_ that said I find rakudo usable for some tasks already
09:28 moritz_ and I fully expect it to become more and more usable each month and year
09:28 moritz_ and usable for a broader audience too
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09:28 david____ and are there any plans to merge more perl 6 features into perl 5
09:28 david____ like switch or state
09:29 david____ which i use in every day programming
09:29 david____ ?
09:29 moritz_ given/when, which is the perl equivalent of switch, is already backported to perl 5.10
09:29 moritz_ which was released in 2007
09:30 moritz_ likewise say(), smartmatching, // (defined-or) and a few other things
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09:30 moritz_ and state variables too
09:31 moritz_ the upcoming 5.14 release will have another feature backported, but with different syntax
09:31 moritz_ $obj.?method  vs.  $obj&&->method
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09:36 sorear there will not be an offical release of Perl 6, since there is no official implementation
09:37 moritz_ there can be still official Perl 6 releases
09:37 moritz_ every implementation that passes the test suite my call itself an official Perl 6 release, just not the official Perl 6 release
09:49 sorear looks like most of my time is being spent in the first line of ws, and in canonicalize_name
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09:50 moritz_ ws is called often.
09:53 moritz_ ENOphenny :(
09:56 david____ thanks a lot for your info
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09:59 sorear right
09:59 sorear so
09:59 sorear next order of business I guess I'll be speeding up autovivification somehow
10:10 sorear what.
10:10 sorear std: $_foo
10:11 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Variable $_foo is not predeclared at /tmp/tHVrzjjqyF line 1:␤------> [32m$_foo[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 118m␤»
10:11 sorear perl6: say '_' ~~ /<alpha>/
10:11 p6eval rakudo 015d77: OUTPUT«_␤»
10:11 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤    unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6​.2.13.16/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤    eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HANDLE>' trapped by operat…
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10:17 dalek niecza: fe78c53 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
10:17 dalek niecza: [v6] fix 1, and $_
10:17 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/​fe78c53d5a920c9cff5142b3bece8566666ee224
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10:19 * sorear starts another roast run, which should be about 30 minutes faster and might even pass more tests
10:20 moritz_ how long was the previous run?
10:20 sorear I don't know
10:20 sorear the time command failed.  horribly.
10:21 * sorear tries it differently
10:21 * sorear -> sleep
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10:45 dalek rakudo: db14a08 | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
10:45 dalek rakudo: [release] bump parrot revision to 2.10.0 release
10:45 dalek rakudo:
10:45 dalek rakudo: Note that parrot 2.10.0 has a known bug that prevents it from being installed
10:45 dalek rakudo: if git is not installed. That's unfortunate, and a 2.10.1 release exist that
10:45 dalek rakudo: fixes it, but it's nowhere to be found in the git repo.
10:45 dalek rakudo:
10:45 dalek rakudo: gerd++ promised to put the stuff into the parrot repo soon, when that's done
10:45 dalek rakudo: PARROT_REVISION should be bumped to the new tag
10:45 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​db14a08f45228c58244d8c174a1ec10f7327fcd1
10:45 dalek rakudo: 16b7466 | moritz++ | build/lib/Rakudo/CompareRevisions.pm:
10:45 dalek rakudo: [configure] at a release tag, "git describe" returns just the tag. Fix a regex accordingly
10:45 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​16b7466dac381d98ee13a84b67420cd5725a0f46
10:45 dalek rakudo: 227feae | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
10:45 dalek rakudo: bump PARROT_REVISION to 2.10.1
10:45 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​227feaec8d6c290639736bd1ff4539c52902bee0
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11:55 tadzik ~~
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12:23 colomon moritz_++
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12:30 masak oh hai, #perl6!
12:30 masak Rakudo release today :)
12:31 moritz_ oh hai masak
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12:31 colomon masak: I've got @a[*-3..*-1] working for you now.  phenny was supposed to tell you...
12:32 masak I see, I'm backlogging now...
12:32 masak colomon++
12:32 moritz_ rakudo: say (1 ... 10)[*-3..*-1]
12:32 p6eval rakudo 015d77: OUTPUT«Method 'succ' not found for invocant of class 'WhateverCode'␤  in 'RangeIter::reify' at line 4771:CORE.setting␤  in 'Any::postcircumfix:<[ ]>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
12:33 moritz_ that revision is quite old.
12:35 moritz_ ah, I didn't remove the parrot svn checkout
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12:48 masak moritz_++ # PARROT_REVISION work
12:48 phenny masak: 04:23Z <colomon> tell masak I wasn't able to figure out how to set Rakudo to use the latest Parrot.  On the plus side, I have a patch to make @a[*-3..*-1] work spectesting now.  Please don't release until I can check it in.  :)
12:48 phenny masak: 05:46Z <colomon> tell masak The @a[*-3..*-1] patch is pushed.
12:49 masak phenny: oh, *now* you spring to life? :)
12:49 masak ah, she wasn't here before.
12:53 moritz_ rakudo: say (1 ... 10)[*-3..*-1]
12:53 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«8910␤»
12:53 moritz_ colomon++
12:55 masak \o/
12:55 masak awesome.
12:55 moritz_ rakudo: say (1 ... 10)[2..*-2]
12:55 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«3456789␤»
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12:57 moritz_ acually I had considered making a challenge out of that feature
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12:57 moritz_ because I didn't want to tackle it myself :-)
12:57 moritz_ in the end I didn't do it, because I wasn't quite sure how much effort it would be
12:58 takadonet morning all
12:59 MindosCheng Morning
12:59 masak takadonet: morning.
13:00 jnthn o/
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13:02 moritz_ \o
13:02 moritz_ btw I did a small test release locally, and it seemed to obtain the right parrot version
13:03 moritz_ it just produces a slightly weird version output:
13:03 moritz_ $ ./perl6 --version
13:03 moritz_ This is Rakudo Perl 6, version 2010.10 built on parrot 2.10.0 RELEASE_2_10_1
13:03 moritz_ Copyright 2008-2010, The Perl Foundation
13:03 moritz_ it reports the wrong version, but the right tag
13:04 moritz_ I guess I can live with that
13:04 moritz_ not rakudo's fault though - it's what parrot_config VERSION returns
13:11 bbkr rakudo: say +q; say q.Num # is this a bug that forcing numeric context on q works only with prefix:<+> ?
13:11 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say q.Num "␤»
13:11 bbkr rakudo: say +q;
13:11 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Could not find sub &q␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/vpXZn42hT_␤»
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13:12 bbkr hmm, it parses on * .10 release... weird...
13:12 moritz_ std: q.Num
13:12 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Couldn't find terminator . at /tmp/cUlc9O4qt9 line 1 (EOF):␤------> [32mq.Num[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 117m␤»
13:12 bbkr std: +q
13:12 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«Invalid class name (STD::stop::) at /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.1/Class/MOP.pm line 88␤        Class::MOP::load_first_exi​sting_class('STD::stop::') called at /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.1/Class/MOP.pm line 136␤        Class::MOP::load_class('STD::stop::', undef) called at
13:12 p6eval ../usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.1/Mo…
13:12 moritz_ bbkr: it parses it as q/.../ quote, except with dots as delimiters
13:13 MindosCheng rakudo looks cute when confused.
13:13 moritz_ bbkr: which is correct
13:14 bbkr rakudo: q.Num.
13:14 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
13:14 bbkr indeed :)
13:14 moritz_ rakudo: say q.Num.
13:14 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Num␤»
13:15 moritz_ you can't have everything AND a pony
13:15 jnthn Ponies are outside of the set of everything? :)
13:15 MindosCheng lol
13:16 MindosCheng Pony is everything.
13:16 moritz_ jnthn: the definition of "everything" is a bit tricky. If "everything" encludes the set of sets that don't contain themselves, it's not decidable
13:17 moritz_ s/encludes/includes/
13:17 moritz_ and ponies are a bit tricky too :-)
13:17 jnthn Hmm, did we just reduce everything to the halting problem? :)
13:17 jnthn Oh wait, we can't decide...
13:18 jnthn :)
13:18 masak oh, we're on the topic of naive set theory now?
13:18 masak this is why Zermelo and Frankel decided to go have a cup of coffee one day :)
13:19 moritz_ masak: actually we just finished before you joined the discussion :-)
13:19 masak s/Frankel/Fraenkel/
13:19 masak moritz_: dang! :)
13:19 masak but you only pointed at the *problems*, whereas the solutions are what's interesting...
13:20 masak you'll probably know whether you want a pony if you adopt the Axiom of Choice... :P
13:20 moritz_ and if I can't decide? :-)
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13:21 masak that's just life. :)
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13:42 masak moritz_: after having read through the list of uses of 'local' in http://perl.plover.com/local.html -- I'm starting to think you're right about 'temp' not having many remaining uses in Perl 6. :)
13:42 dalek roast: e4acb32 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S02-builtin_data_types/whatever.t:
13:42 dalek roast: Remove fudging on tests that now work.
13:42 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/e​4acb32e2e422a09faf3b996f24f4a024e2b5638
13:43 masak I basically saw two uses in that article: glob filehandles and dynamic scoping. Perl 6 has scalar filehandles and star-twigil variables, respectively.
13:44 moritz_ even perl 5 has scalar filehandles :-)
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13:46 jnthn Maybe it's just a temp feature then. ;)
13:47 masak moritz_: I know. maybe it didn't at the time of that article's writing, though.
13:49 masak in some ways, I have much more hope in 'let' becoming a cool/useful feature. it abstracts away some backtracking boilerplate.
13:49 moritz_ fwiw lexical file handles are a rather old feature, but in ancient version of perl 5 they didn't autovivify, so <c> open my $var, ...</c> wouldn't work
13:50 masak I don't understand that use of the word 'autovivify'.
13:51 moritz_ my $var; creates a lexical varaible in perl 5. it contains undef.
13:51 moritz_ open FOO, ...; otoh references a typeglob
13:51 moritz_ with a slot for file handles
13:51 masak right.
13:52 moritz_ so in "modern" perl 5, 'open my $var, ...' automatically puts all the stuff into $var that's required to store a file handle
13:52 moritz_ that's what "autovivification" means
13:53 masak ah. yes.
13:53 masak I didn't think of file handles as requiring any special machinery.
13:53 masak they don't in Perl 6, far as I'm aware.
13:53 moritz_ (p5 guts hacker will probably cringe in horror at that explanation :-)
13:54 moritz_ masak: afaict open() is much more magic in p5 too
13:54 moritz_ in many, many ways
13:54 moritz_ for example
13:54 moritz_ open Foo;
13:55 moritz_ is the same as open Foo, $Foo; (assuming that $Foo is a package var, not a lexical)
13:57 masak ick.
13:57 jnthn wow
13:57 jnthn That's...sort of cute.
13:57 moritz_ $ perldoc -f open|wc -l
13:57 moritz_ 383
13:57 jnthn :)
14:05 Juerd If it did open Foo, 'Foo' it'd be kinda useful for many cute oneliners :)
14:06 jnthn slurp('filename') and lines('filename') tend to serve that role well in Perl 6 though :)
14:06 jnthn Especially as with the latter you can set up a pipeline.
14:07 moritz_ isn't it lines('filename'.IO) these days?
14:07 jnthn please no
14:07 jnthn but maybe.
14:07 moritz_ because words() acts on the string, and doesn't interpret it as file name
14:07 jnthn ah, h
14:08 jnthn mmmmmm
14:09 masak I remember some spec changes in that area.
14:10 masak without remembering their exact details, I'd hope that &words and &lines have multis with the same signatures.
14:11 masak (and that, apart from the specific thing they do differently, they have the same semantics)
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14:11 moritz_ that was the point of the spec change
14:11 masak \o/
14:12 * MindosCheng wanna know cute one-liners.
14:12 masak MindosCheng: you should watch jnthn's talk about small and large Perl 6.
14:13 masak MindosCheng: http://www.nuug.no/aktiviteter/2​0100914-little-tools-large-apps/
14:15 MindosCheng masak++
14:17 tadzik o/
14:18 takadonet tadzik: o/
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14:27 jnthn masak: Looking at that video though, you may note that it makes my examples less cute. ;)
14:28 masak oh?
14:28 takadonet jnthn++
14:28 jnthn I'm not sure what can really be done about it though. I agree having lines and words have different siggies is wrong.
14:28 jnthn masak: well, lines('events') ==> grep /beer/ ==> say
14:29 jnthn Is cuter than
14:29 jnthn lines('events'.IO) ==> grep /beer/ ==> say
14:29 jnthn That .IO feels kinda noisy.
14:29 masak well... yes and no.
14:29 masak the .IO feels noisy in $file.IO ~~ :e as well
14:30 masak especially since we started out at :e $file
14:30 masak er. -e $file
14:31 jnthn aye
14:31 jnthn I understand why, just not sure it ain't a false minima.
14:33 masak come to think of it, &slurp is arguably also in that group with &lines and &words.
14:33 jnthn $string.slurp is identity though :)
14:33 jnthn How...useless. :)
14:33 masak er, except that slurping a Str would then be a... right.
14:34 masak so never mind.
14:34 jnthn :)
14:34 jnthn phew
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14:47 colomon jnthn: can you please review my patches last night, if you haven't already?  thanks.
14:49 jnthn colomon: Didn't get chance yet. Unfortunately, I'm still trying to fight off some illness, which is leaving me mostly wiped out on an evening after $dayjob. So I'm not getting to much at all. I'll try and remember to look at them soon, but hassle me again at the weekend if I forget. :)
14:49 wtw left #perl6
14:50 * MindosCheng pat jnthn
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14:53 jnthn MindosCheng: :)
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14:56 PerlJam So, I guess the relationship between parrot and rakudo is still somewhat broken.
14:57 masak PerlJam: in what sense?
14:57 masak this sounds important, since I'm to make a release today.
14:57 PerlJam If I build parrot from the tarball, there is no git_describe key
14:57 PerlJam (and thus I can't build rakudo from the tarball)
14:57 PerlJam Everything works fine as long as you have a repo around
14:58 masak oh, but that doesn't affect the --gen-parrot instll path, right?
14:58 * masak tries that path from scratch
15:00 moritz_ PerlJam: uhm, it should fall back to comparing the versions if no git_describe output is available
15:00 moritz_ oh.
15:00 moritz_ and the installed parrot identifies itself as 2.10.0
15:00 moritz_ not 2.10.1
15:00 moritz_ so
15:00 masak :(
15:00 moritz_ two solutions
15:01 moritz_ 1) a fixed parrot release
15:01 moritz_ or
15:01 moritz_ 2) require version 2.10.0
15:01 moritz_ 2) isn't as bad as it sounds, because every time you manage to build a parrot 2.10.0 you get the same functionality as with 2.10.1
15:01 masak I'd like to once again request a suitable .pm group for this month's release name.
15:01 moritz_ just that 2.10.1 has a higher chance to build
15:02 moritz_ so build/PARROT_REVISION could like like this:
15:02 PerlJam Here's what happened when I tried to build rakudo using a freshly compiled parrot from the parrot-2.10.1 tarball: https://gist.github.com/705084
15:02 moritz_ RELEASE_2_10_1 2.10.0
15:03 jnthn masak: I should found Lund.pm or something ;)
15:03 masak jnthn: :)
15:03 jnthn But ENOTAPPROPIRATE due to lack of current existence :)
15:04 moritz_ we could just invent .pm names
15:04 moritz_ and see if somebody notices it :-)
15:04 PerlJam Hogwarts.pm
15:04 PerlJam ;)
15:04 masak Silesia.pm
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15:05 masak GothamCity.pm
15:05 masak Metropolis.pm
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15:06 PerlJam Gondor.pm
15:06 PerlJam Moria.pm
15:06 PerlJam Rivendell.pm
15:07 masak Ankh::Morpork.pm
15:07 moritz_ Ankh/Morpork.pm please :-)
15:07 masak right.
15:08 masak NewNewNewNewNewNewNewNewNewNewNe​wNewNewNewNewNewNewNewNewYork.pm
15:09 PerlJam Which pm group sponsored the NPW?  (or was there a pm involved?)
15:09 huf that city'd wrap around the earth a few times
15:10 huf each new adds about an atlantic ocean's worth of offset west
15:10 masak huf: if it were on the Earth, yes.
15:10 mathw but in Futurama, New New York is built upon the ruins of (old) New York
15:10 masak TwinPeaks.pm
15:10 mathw so wouldn't NewNewNewNewNewNewNewNewNewNewN​ewNewNewNewNewNewNewNewNewYork be somewhere in the upper atmosphere?
15:11 mathw reached by a long, spiral ramp
15:11 masak mathw: the New**19 York is a Dr Who reference.
15:11 mathw and inhabited by bird people
15:11 mathw oh that one
15:11 mathw I didn't like that episode
15:11 mathw It was from the 'oh no it's still awful' era
15:11 masak :)
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15:15 moritz_ masak, PerlJam: I've started the parrotgit2 branch
15:15 moritz_ I've tried to fix Configure.pl when dealing with a parrot-from-tarball
15:16 moritz_ PerlJam: it would be very nice if you could test that
15:16 masak moritz_++
15:16 PerlJam will do
15:16 * moritz_ tests --gen-parrot
15:17 moritz_ I didn't make --gen-parrot smart
15:17 colomon rakudo: say "alive"
15:17 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«alive␤»
15:17 PerlJam I think --gen-parrot doesn't need to be smart since it grabs the parrot repo
15:17 colomon ummmm.... what happened to the version hash in the p6eval output?
15:17 moritz_ so if you have a parrot-from-tarball installed, and use --gen-parrot, it'll build a redundant parrot
15:18 moritz_ colomon: I wiped the old rakudo builds, and with it the hash file
15:18 moritz_ colomon: a cron job should eventually trigger a rebuild that creates it again
15:18 colomon rakduo: my @a = 1..10; say @a[*-4..*-2]
15:18 moritz_ if it does not by tomorrow, I'll investigate
15:19 colomon rakudo: my @a = 1..10; say @a[*-4..*-2]
15:19 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«789␤»
15:19 * PerlJam patiently waits for his other tests to finish
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15:29 * jnthn afk
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15:33 dalek rakudo: e7a20ed | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
15:33 dalek rakudo: change PARROT_REVISION again
15:33 dalek rakudo:
15:33 dalek rakudo: We require only parrot 2.10.0, but use 2.10.1 for --gen-parrot.
15:33 dalek rakudo: The background is that 2.10.1 identifies itself as 2.10.0.
15:33 dalek rakudo: OTOH the only difference is that 2.10.1 is more likely to build, so if
15:33 dalek rakudo: somebody presents us an installed 2.10.0, there's no reason to reject that.
15:33 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​e7a20ed999d03a56a259a8f42d688dba671be2f6
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15:36 PerlJam moritz_: parrotgit2 seems to work fine with my parrot-built-from-tarball.  (at least it compiles, I didn't run through all of the tests)
15:36 moritz_ PerlJam: thanks, that's all I'm interested in
15:37 moritz_ PerlJam: feel free to merge :-)
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15:38 dalek rakudo: b469741 | moritz++ | Configure.pl:
15:38 dalek rakudo: an attempt to fix Configure.pl with a parrot-built-from-tarball
15:38 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​b469741a21c9c82cd0cef7d911d10c1ee00d9986
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16:14 masak moritz_: sorry, I haven't been following along too closely. would I be able to go into release mode with the current master?
16:15 moritz_ masak: yes
16:15 moritz_ masak: assuming you find a release name :-)
16:16 * masak considers going with Ankh/Morpork.pm and see how far he gets with it
16:19 masak I mean, even though nobody here *went* to the YAPC::Discworld this year, their Perl 6 track looked really nice.
16:20 moritz_ indeed :-)
16:20 masak compared to BristolBath (and as far as I know), they've done a lot.
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16:23 * masak just learned that each Discworld half-year has 13 months
16:23 masak Offle, February, March, April, May, June, Grune, August, Spune, Sektober, Ember, December, and Ick.
16:23 colomon Ick and Offle for winter, eh?
16:24 masak dunno. got it from here: http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Discworld_calendar
16:25 * MindosCheng saw GURPS Discworld once...
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16:34 notjack is there an official perl6 news site or page?  the ones I googled seem out of date
16:35 masak perl6.org
16:35 moritz_ notjack: perl6.org is our website. planetsix.perl.org has nearly all interesting Perl 6 blogs
16:35 masak as for news, see rakudo.org for latest Rakudo releases.
16:36 Teratogen will perl 6 eventually be written in perl 6?
16:36 moritz_ Teratogen: it already is, in big parts
16:36 Teratogen is that the ultimate goal?
16:37 Teratogen also, early on, I heard some crazy story that the perl 6 compiler was going to be one huge long regular expression!
16:37 notjack thanks
16:37 moritz_ most Rakudo code I look at is written in nqp-rx, which is a subset of Perl 6. Or in rakudo's Perl 6 dialect.
16:38 moritz_ Teratogen: we parse Perl 6 with Perl 6 grammars. Which are collections of regexes and methods.
16:38 moritz_ Teratogen: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/​blob/master/src/Perl6/Grammar.pm
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16:39 notjack I know someone wrote an APL parser in Perl6 (or some old flavor of Perl6) - is that person here, and can s/he comment on how long it took?
16:40 notjack I'm thinking of writing a J parser, but I'm not much of a parser guy - I just want an easy way to make an open-source J interpreter (the current one isn't open source and so I'm a bit hamstrung)
16:40 notjack (J is very like APL, for those who don't know)
16:41 moritz_ notjack: I don't know how long it takes, but once you get the hang on it, it's no rocket science
16:41 moritz_ http://perlgeek.de/en/arti​cle/debug-a-perl-6-grammar might be useful at some point :-)
16:42 notjack I've heard that once you get the hang of it, rocket science isn't exactly rocket science either - but I get your thrust :)
16:42 moritz_ notjack: a professor once said "that's no rocket science... actually it's *MUCH HARDER* than rocket science" :-)
16:43 moritz_ it was about density functional theory in solid state physics
16:44 masak Teratogen: what moritz_ said. the "one huge long regular expression" is in some sense true, because grammars are that. but it's just as strange to describe it as that, as it would be to describe a class hierarchy as "one huge long jumble of variables and statements".
16:45 moritz_ masak: I'll be offline for about 2.5H... if you need any fixes for the configure system, contact your local p5 dealer, or wait for my return :-)
16:45 arnsholt I'd disagree with grammars being just a long regex, but only a bit =)
16:45 masak moritz_: I won't start relenging until in about 2.5 h anyway.
16:46 masak arnsholt: well, it's not a perfect fit.
16:46 masak arnsholt: just as there's a bit of runtime polymorphism in methods, there is in grammars as well.
16:47 notjack let me ask for a concrete example then
16:47 masak but some people, diakopter for example, have been experimenting with compiling grammars down to one huge regex. I think.
16:47 arnsholt notjack: But as people have pointed out, writing grammars is much like writing regexes. Only quite a bit easier in a few key aspects I'd argue
16:47 notjack let's say I have a language where foo bar and baz are functions of ambivalent arity: they can each be called as either  foo arg1  or  arg0 foo arg1
16:48 masak notjack: the best single advice I can give you on writing grammars (besides reading moritz_++' article) is "use TDD".
16:48 notjack and now I want to add a grammar rule that says  "(foo bar baz)  arg1"  <->  "(foo arg1) bar (baz arg1)"  and similarly  "arg0 (foo bar baz)  arg1"  <->  "(arg0 foo arg1) bar (arg0 baz arg1)"
16:49 notjack does that seem like it would be hard to do?
16:49 masak no.
16:49 notjack masak: oh yes, TDD definitely.
16:49 masak though you seem to be suggesting internal re-writing in some prior phase.
16:49 notjack masak: can you should me the rule in broad strokes?
16:50 notjack masak: sorry, I missed that: what prior phase?
16:50 masak notjack: well, I'd rather you went and experimented for a while and came back with an even more concrete question :)
16:50 masak notjack: I'm not sure I have the energy to do design right now.
16:50 notjack that's not concrete enough?  (that's an actual - and useful - grammar rule in J, btw)
16:51 notjack masak: understood
16:51 masak it's not syntax I'm familiar with.
16:51 notjack maybe I'll cop the APL example and start from there
16:51 masak that is, it looks neither like (E)BNF nor like Perl 6.
16:51 notjack <-> means "equivalent to"
16:51 masak start simple. don't you dare write code before you've written a test :)
16:51 masak yes, I got that part.
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16:51 notjack the rest is actual syntax
16:52 masak ...except that arg0 and arg1 are probably metasyntactic?
16:52 notjack no, they're arguments
16:52 notjack data
16:52 masak ok.
16:52 notjack let's say  foo=-  and bar=*  and baz=-  (same as foo)
16:53 notjack then "(- * -) 5" <-> "(- 5)*(-5)"
16:53 masak I wouldn't do a rewriting phase, I'd probably parse into an AST, and then do manipulation on the AST.
16:53 notjack similarly "4 (- * -) 5" <-> "(4-5)*(4-5)"
16:53 masak notjack: right, ok.
16:54 masak notjack: bit too many details to take in, I'm afraid. if it were my problem, I might make more of an effort to dissect it. as it's yours, I encourage you to do it.
16:54 masak notjack: have you skimmed S05?
16:54 notjack ah, the much feared AST.  Fine, fine ... I'll go learn what parsing actually means.
16:54 notjack yeah, I've skimmed most of the Ss and As
16:55 masak wow, nice.
16:55 notjack I just haven't typed a line of code :)
16:55 arnsholt ASTs aren't too hard either. It's just a fancy word for data-structure-that-represents-my-program
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16:56 masak exactly.
16:56 masak and the reason I'd recommend manipulating those rather than strings, is that the AST already embodies the structure of the program.
16:56 masak strings are flat, and therefore it's much messier to handle them.
16:57 arnsholt Exactly. Objects (which is what you'll probably use for the AST) have structure, which is so much nicer =)
16:57 TimToady though I suspect notjack++ is thinking of strings of tokens, not chars
16:58 notjack correct
16:58 notjack I mean, I could actually write a regex to do what I want -- but that doesn't feel official :)
16:59 notjack oh yeah - and lexing.  well, that's not too hard.  I have the FSM already.
17:00 masak strings of token is also fine, and perhaps better for this purpose. it also has more structure than just strings of chars.
17:01 notjack strings of chars add no value
17:04 masak no, it's numbers that add value :P
17:04 notjack 4+"5" ; # :)
17:04 masak I'm going to go make food now.
17:05 notjack later - thanks
17:05 masak if anyone has a better name than Ankh::Morpork for the upcoming release, please let me know.
17:05 masak would be nice to stick with real pm groups for Rakudo, and maybe save the fictional ones for Yapsi...
17:06 * masak bows out
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17:16 dukeleto how is the Rakudo release going?
17:16 dukeleto which parrot sha1 is it targetting?
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18:06 tylercurtis Should $*EXECUTABLE_NAME and $*PROGRAM_NAME be failures in modules that are being loaded by "use"?
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18:13 TimToady I don't think we can separate benign uses of those variables from malign; for instance, they could be useful for error reporting.
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18:16 TimToady and we tend to go with innocent until proven guilty here, most of the time *cough* Durations *cough*
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18:48 mkramer1 ahh, priority one troubleshoots are out of my box, now to begin my day's work....
18:48 mkramer1 whoops
18:48 mkramer1 wrong channel again
18:49 mkramer1 (if only I were working in perl6, I wouldn't have these problems!)
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19:07 * moritz_ back
19:07 diakopter wb
19:10 Teratogen will most perl 5 code work in perl 6?
19:11 diakopter depends... most of ... code what size?
19:11 diakopter :)
19:11 diakopter (affects how much you'll have to port) ;)
19:11 diakopter s/ll/d/
19:12 flussence someone, please put a "FAQ" link on the front of perl6.org
19:14 diakopter flussence: you can :)
19:14 diakopter would you like to be that someone?
19:14 colomon dukeleto: the good news on the Rakudo/Parrot interface is that moritz_++ stepped in to make it work.  :)
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19:19 flussence diakopter: I dunno, maybe later if nobody else volunteers though. Do we even have a FAQ to link to?
19:19 moritz_ notreally
19:19 moritz_ but you can start /faq/ page if you want :-)
19:20 flussence there's a page for one on the wiki, it's a bit sparse right now though...
19:30 tylercurtis TimToady: is that a no to $*EXECUTABLE_NAME and $*PROGRAM_NAME failing in loaded modules? That appears to be Rakudo's current behavior.
19:30 tylercurtis On a related note, is there any dynamic variable I can use to know whether a module is being executed directly or just being imported?
19:33 flussence you could look at the code that does MAIN() for a hint, that needs to know the same thing.
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19:39 dukeleto colomon: good to hear :)
19:59 sjohnson Teratogen: it will not unless you give it a directive to at the start, like use v5; or something
19:59 colomon which doesn't work in Rakudo.
20:00 Teratogen ok
20:01 sjohnson that is to be done in the future i believe.. so you might have to hold your horses
20:03 tylercurtis On the other hand, Perl 5 code still works in Perl 5. And if you want, you could even use Blizkost to access that Perl 5 code from Perl 6.
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20:14 * WebDragon tips proverbial hat
20:14 WebDragon recently noticed that Rakudo Star is part of Fedora 14's release
20:15 WebDragon first off, _nice_
20:16 WebDragon congratulations are, methinks, in order
20:16 colomon thank you
20:16 WebDragon has anyone here been working with that particular release (F14) ?
20:17 WebDragon I have yet to upgrade from F12 but have it planned for the next weekend or two, due to the EOL coming up in december for F12
20:18 WebDragon more or less wanted to know what, if any, interesting things I should be looking for in order to start playing with it (admittedly for the first time)
20:19 WebDragon I'd noticed somewhat ago that I'd, as a necessary part of my web workload at $WORK, been spending way too much time in php, and my perl skills had atrophied considerably from where I'd managed to get them
20:19 colomon The only Fedora-like thing I have around here is an old copy of CentOS, but hopefully someone else is around who is using it.
20:19 WebDragon been working towards remedying that fact, when I discovered this little gem
20:19 colomon What do you know about Perl 6?
20:20 WebDragon only what little I'd played with as part of the various porting of bits back into perl5 and the various exegesis and apocalypse postings over the past few years
20:20 rindolf joined #perl6
20:20 WebDragon nothing's *really* stuck in my brain yet, but that just gives me more incentive to play
20:20 WebDragon :D
20:20 rindolf Hi WebDragon
20:20 WebDragon heya rindolf :)
20:20 TimToady http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Perl_6 has 240 examples of working Perl6 code
20:21 WebDragon oh, _lovely_
20:21 colomon woah, you guys are up to 240 examples now?!
20:21 rindolf BTW, does Parrot already have bignum types?
20:21 WebDragon TimToady: do they share corresponding examples of what it would have looked like were it written using perl5 ?
20:21 TimToady Util++ has been going to town on it lately
20:21 colomon rindolf: I believe it has some sort of depreciated bignum type from the early days
20:22 TimToady WebDragon: generally, just page up from each Perl 6 example
20:22 TimToady though a few of them have no corresponding Perl 5
20:22 rindolf colomon: ah.
20:22 WebDragon sweet. that'll definitely help with the mental transitions
20:22 colomon Perl 5 version may not be the same approach, right?
20:22 rindolf colomon: maybe I'll work on binding GNU MP
20:22 colomon rindolf: if it were easy, I'd have done it already myself.  :)
20:22 TimToady colomon: sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't
20:23 TimToady some of the P6 examples give something like the P5 approach, and then an alternative FP-oriented approach
20:23 WebDragon colomon: just use monofilament. (i.e. binary rope)
20:23 WebDragon :D
20:24 * WebDragon hides under his rock
20:24 colomon rindolf: not that you should let it stop you!  I'd certainly love to have bigints working in Rakudo.
20:24 TimToady funny you should mention mono...
20:25 WebDragon I know comparatively little regarding the various bits (such as Parrot)
20:25 TimToady niecza: say "Am I running under mono?"
20:25 p6eval niecza fe78c53: OUTPUT«Am I running under mono?␤»
20:25 WebDragon I've read bits over the years but have never gone on to try installing any of it due mostly to various time constraints involving large chunks of RealLife™ which keep invading my space
20:26 sjohnson hi
20:26 colomon WebDragon: you can try simple things right here, you know.
20:26 rindolf WebDragon: what's up?
20:26 WebDragon things have been settling down for a while now to where I've actually started work on rearranging my apartment once again, seeing as things have approached stability
20:26 colomon rakudo: my @fib := 1, 1, * + * ... *; say @fib[^40].perl
20:26 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«(1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987, 1597, 2584, 4181, 6765, 10946, 17711, 28657, 46368, 75025, 121393, 196418, 317811, 514229, 832040, 1346269, 2178309, 3524578, 5702887, 9227465, 14930352, 24157817, 39088169, 63245986, 102334155)␤»
20:27 TimToady perl6: say 1..3 X~ <a b c>
20:27 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«123␤»
20:27 p6eval ..rakudo : OUTPUT«1a1b1c2a2b2c3a3b3c␤»
20:27 WebDragon once that's done I'll have a more comfortable working environ once again, at home as well as at work
20:27 WebDragon oh, that's just nifty
20:29 WebDragon how did the Rakudo Star bit come about?
20:30 flussence rakudo: say *.WHAT
20:30 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Whatever()␤»
20:30 WebDragon I recall hearing about Rakudo but don't recall exactly when the "Star" business happened, as I was out of touch with Perl for way too long
20:32 TimToady http://twit.tv/floss140 if you don't mind a 1.5 hour interview of Patrick Michaud by Randal Schwartz
20:33 Trashlord left #perl6
20:33 TimToady well, not 1.5, it's 1:21:40
20:36 risou left #perl6
20:38 WebDragon nice, links in with google reader
20:45 masak joined #perl6
20:45 masak hey there, #perl6 people.
20:47 tylercurtis Hi, masak.
20:47 Guest70621 left #perl6
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20:53 rindolf Hi masak
20:53 masak I'll just backlog a little, and then we'll do a release, OK?
20:59 masak WebDragon: hi! welcome!
20:59 WebDragon heyaz :)
21:00 * WebDragon passes around the carafe of DragonCoffee™
21:01 masak WebDragon: besides the scripts at Rosettacode, http://modules.perl6.org/ contains over 80 modules of Perl 6 code to look at.
21:01 shortcircuit TimToady, WebDragon: Give me a minute or five, and I should be able to create pages that will quickly list the RC tasks which have P5, but no P6, and P6, but no P5.
21:02 masak WebDragon: also, Rakudo itself is chock full of good Perl 6 code.
21:02 WebDragon it's still quite new to me. I haven't even got F14 installed yet (but it will be soon)
21:03 WebDragon I don't even yet know how to poke at it to make it sit up and hello, world me
21:03 masak rakudo: say "Hello WebDragon!"
21:03 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Hello WebDragon!␤»
21:03 WebDragon well I can see how to do it in the channel
21:04 masak WebDragon: if you have installed it on F14, my guess is that you have a 'perl6' binary somewhere in your $PATH
21:04 Guest70621 joined #perl6
21:04 * masak pokes Guest70621 with a feather
21:04 WebDragon but I'm reasonably sure you don't want me writing and testing my programs in the channel, one line of code at a time considering that even this as an interactive shell is somewhat lacking in that individual line invocations aren't going to recall variables from one line to the next
21:05 WebDragon http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/38279  <-- ala
21:05 masak WebDragon: it does nowadays :)
21:05 masak ...I think
21:05 * WebDragon chuckles
21:05 masak yes it does!
21:05 masak > my $a = 52
21:05 masak 52
21:05 masak > say $a
21:05 masak 52
21:06 masak pmichaud_++ pmichaud_++ pmichaud_++
21:06 * WebDragon doesn't want to make a nuisance of himself doing interactive shell invocations here in #perl6
21:06 shortcircuit http://rosettacode.org/wiki/​User:Short_Circuit/SomePerls
21:06 masak WebDragon: by the way, I've moved blogs: http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/preten​ding-that-envy-is-one-of-the-perl-virtues
21:07 colomon what, no mandelbrot in p6 there yet?!?
21:07 masak I should put up a sign at the old place saying I've done so.
21:07 masak colomon: go for it!
21:08 masak oh right, I *can't* post on use.perl.
21:08 masak now I remember why I left.
21:09 * masak goes into releng mode
21:09 frettled :)
21:09 shortcircuit OIC, Slashcode.
21:09 WebDragon indefinite hiatus
21:09 * WebDragon wonders what pudge is doing these days
21:09 kjeldahl joined #perl6
21:10 * WebDragon dates back to the days when Matthias Neeracher had put together MacPerl for pre-OSX macintoshes
21:11 WebDragon it ultimately led me on to RHL and thence to Fedora to have a native environment to play with, and THEN they come out with OS X once I was no longer in a position to afford a new Mac, and by then I liked linux enough to stick with it
21:11 WebDragon or rather, by the time i had the cash to spare to buy a new Mac with, I liked linux enough to stick with it
21:12 masak you know what? I'm going to go with "Melbourne" for the release name.
21:12 WebDragon read: "it had improved enough by then that I could live with it" :D
21:12 frettled Y2K: Windows for work, Linux for play.  Y2K.01: Linux for work, Windows for play.
21:12 masak and if anyone asks why, I'm going to say that it's because I know a guy there who writes great Exegeses.
21:12 frettled masak: good enuff
21:12 WebDragon heheh
21:12 masak I think so.
21:13 masak maybe it'll make Damian finally go public with his Perl 6 code, too :P
21:13 WebDragon frettled: indeed, I dual-boot my laptop and the only reason I use the windows boot is to A> test work in MSIE8, B> use my MagicJack which doesn't yet have a working linux version, and C> play games
21:13 molaf joined #perl6
21:13 WebDragon everything else happens on the linux side
21:13 WebDragon incluing a few games that work properly under wine ever since 1.0 release of it
21:14 frettled masak: TheDamian has Perl 6 code waiting in the wings?  *drool*
21:14 WebDragon shouldn't the bottom of http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Perl_6 have some link to the SomePerls page ?
21:14 masak frettled: I've seen one of the modules. it was nice.
21:15 WebDragon one thing that's always frustrated me about wiki's is the nonstandard methods of navigating the information found there
21:16 masak Hm, ChangeLog needs updating.
21:16 * masak does that
21:16 WebDragon I really wish I had the tuits to graft a front-end on top of a wiki that required various crosslinking relationships between the data at the top level before drilling downwards
21:17 masak WebDragon: write up a clear description of your vision somewhere, and someone might jump on it.
21:17 frettled WebDragon: I'm not sure you _want_ to create a hierarchy of it.
21:17 WebDragon i.e. you can't publish newly written articles til you've identified the relationships to the existing information and identified how you get there from elsewhere
21:18 frettled What if there is no relationship to the existing information, except something that is extremely contrived?
21:19 flussence put it in an "Other" category and let someone else fix it :)
21:19 frettled Let's say that you have a wiki containing information about animals.  Then you want to write an article about a programming language.  Please explain how you want those to be linked.
21:19 masak frettled: Python! :P
21:19 frettled masak: that's a road that's nearly as humpy as a camel's back!
21:20 masak but you can't deny it's a connection... :)
21:20 frettled It's in the «contrived connections» category.
21:20 AndreasX joined #perl6
21:20 frettled (actually, that's the term flussence probably was looking for, rather than «Other» ;))
21:21 masak why does 'git status' sometimes say "Your branch is ahead of 'origin/master' by 36 commits." even when I've just pulled and it fast-forwarded?
21:21 flussence you haven't pushed
21:21 frettled yup
21:21 masak huh.
21:21 moritz_ 36 local commits?
21:21 moritz_ that's... a lot.
21:21 WebDragon|laptop joined #perl6
21:21 masak I'm not aware of anything I've neglected to push...
21:21 frettled moritz_: Hey, it's masak.
21:22 moritz_ git diff origin/master
21:22 * WebDragon|laptop kicks his frakking router and asks where he left off
21:22 WebDragon left #perl6
21:22 WebDragon|laptop is now known as WebDragon
21:22 flussence WebDragon: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today#footer
21:23 frettled Arghle, bedtime.  No soup for me.
21:23 AndreasX left #perl6
21:23 WebDragon <frettled> What if there is no relationship to the existing information, except something that is extremely contrived?
21:23 WebDragon because the only way I seem to navigate a wiki is by already knowing what I'm searching for and somehow finding it via google
21:23 WebDragon then you identify the contrived pathway, and the various people editing the wiki come up with additional paths (or correct your assumptions :D )
21:23 masak moritz_: thanks. there are indeed lots of differences, none mine.
21:23 * masak pulls --force
21:24 WebDragon so the 'wikiness' is preserved, but also the mind-mapping,  so you can always go back and forth along whichever pathways lead there.
21:24 frettled WebDragon: That depends on the wiki.  But you're not answering the question, you're just raising a different one.
21:24 WebDragon using multiple breadcrumb-trails as tags, something like that. admittedly I've only given this a modicum of thought, but the _relationships_ between the information seem to me to be as important as the information itself
21:24 frettled WebDragon: You don't «identify the contrived pathway», that's a contradiction in terms.
21:24 WebDragon frettled: indeed you have nailed it in a nutshell
21:24 frettled WebDragon: You _contrive_ a pathway where there is none.
21:25 frettled And that's very problematic in terms of organization of content.
21:25 WebDragon yes but you still have to identify the pathway you've contrived, TO the wiki so that others can see it
21:25 frettled No.
21:25 frettled I think you misunderstand my point entirely.
21:25 WebDragon are you still thinking in terms of how existing wikis work?
21:25 frettled Which means I'm not communicating clearly.
21:25 WebDragon either or both of us.
21:25 frettled WebDragon: I'm thinking in terms of how to organize information.
21:26 WebDragon I'm off in wonderland thinking about an idea that's not fully crystallized yet, mind you :)
21:26 frettled WebDragon: Have a look at my example again.  Why would you contrive a connection between programming and animals?
21:26 * WebDragon chuckles and hides a grin in his coffee
21:26 rindolf left #perl6
21:27 WebDragon 'contrive' is perhaps the wrong word to use to describe the various pathways one would 'mental-leap' from to get from point a to point b in the process of information discovery
21:27 WebDragon although it's close
21:27 frettled Aha, I see where you're missing the point now.
21:28 frettled Or where I'm miscommunicating.
21:28 WebDragon straighten me, I'm ready. (as Lord Buckley would say)
21:28 frettled Let me rephrase: why should you enforce a connection between animals and programming?
21:28 diakopter contrive has a negative connotation; it can be used pejoratively to describe it as artificially (or mis-)constructed
21:28 frettled Why does there need to be?
21:28 frettled diakopter: as intended.
21:29 WebDragon frettled: if there's a connection, one makes it
21:29 WebDragon from whatever source derived
21:29 diakopter brain->link
21:29 WebDragon precisely, diakopter
21:29 frettled WebDragon: yes, but you quite clearly stated that you wanted everything to be clearly connected, to _require_ that new entries have a connection to an existing one.
21:30 WebDragon frettled: exactly. answering the question "how did I get here?" as well as "where do I go from here?"
21:30 frettled WebDragon: which, in my not so humble opinion, is ill-advised both in terms of information theory, and in managing people
21:30 frettled What's the point?
21:30 WebDragon wiki's inevitably leave me wondering where to go next
21:30 WebDragon or how to backtrack
21:30 WebDragon so I just click around
21:30 frettled WebDragon: the back button in your browser, as $deity intended?
21:30 WebDragon which usually leads me to google, not more of the wiki's information
21:30 WebDragon :P
21:31 WebDragon which was my point
21:31 MayDaniel joined #perl6
21:31 WebDragon invariably I'm led to the wiki by deep-links from somewhere OTHER than the wiki
21:31 frettled You're not going to solve the problem by enforcing links where there is no "natural" connection between the pieces of information
21:31 WebDragon which is now missing my own point
21:32 frettled Sure, it's relevant that "antimatter" is linked to "matter", and vice versa, and probably to a bunch of other articles regarding physics etc.
21:32 WebDragon what about the _natural_ connections?
21:32 frettled Sorry, AFK, alarm at work.
21:33 WebDragon I'm not saying it's required to enforce arbitrary and unnatural connections between information, but surely if you're creating information there would be _natural_ links to follow that map how you get there from somewhere else, and how you'd continue onward
21:33 masak smoke reports looking good: http://smolder.parrot.org/a​pp/projects/smoke_reports/5
21:33 masak I believe even those two failing tests on darwin might have gone away since yesterday.
21:33 masak maybe.
21:35 y3llow_ joined #perl6
21:35 y3llow left #perl6
21:35 WebDragon your typical website is going to be reaosonably linear within the plateau of information presented therein, usually as trees or tags
21:36 pothos_ joined #perl6
21:36 y3llow_ is now known as y3llow
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21:40 WebDragon but the progression and iteration and mental-mapping of the information therein is, while inclusive, also much more clearly defined. very rarely will you have pages existing in isolation
21:41 WebDragon on the other hand NONE of this is really relevant to perl6
21:41 WebDragon :)
21:41 WebDragon which is what I REALLY came here about
21:41 * WebDragon follows some more of the links and keeps on ready
21:41 WebDragon s/ready/reading/ .. wow dunno how I made that typo
21:42 MayDaniel left #perl6
21:42 * WebDragon summons up visions of his old Model III Trs-80 and the ubiquitous READY> prompt
21:46 92AABMEJ7 left #perl6
21:47 fhelmberger left #perl6
21:48 masak ChangeLog commit coming up.
21:48 masak let me know if I missed any major change since last release. or even any minor change that still might be worth mentioning.
21:49 donaldh joined #perl6
21:49 masak dalek?
21:50 diakopter takes up to a minute I think
21:50 dalek rakudo: 7b94fc9 | masak++ | docs/ChangeLog:
21:50 dalek rakudo: [docs/ChangeLog] updated
21:50 dalek rakudo:
21:50 dalek rakudo: Condensed the git log down to these things.
21:50 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​7b94fc96f8037336dd981c5e7afd8e17d34acaa3
21:50 masak there we go.
21:51 * diakopter 5% done porting PAST::Regex from .pir to nqp
21:51 diakopter er
21:51 diakopter porting nqp-rx itself
21:51 diakopter anyways
21:52 diakopter good thing pmichaud did all the hard (and easy) work already
21:52 * WebDragon is very much looking forward to having F14 installed and being able to really play with this stuff
21:52 masak grr! t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.rakudo fails one subtest here!
21:53 * masak wants to remove that file from spectest.data
21:53 moritz_ you can comment it out for the release.
21:53 masak good idea.
21:53 moritz_ or you can fudge the test
21:54 masak I already fudged one test in that file.
21:54 masak seems it's very stochastic.
21:54 masak I'll comment out the test file, and then I might "forget" to uncomment it again.
21:55 donaldh left #perl6
21:58 * WebDragon makes a bunch more bookmarks, tips his hat, passes around more DragonCoffee™ for all and sundry, and congratulates all on the most excellent milestone
21:59 WebDragon but alas I must bid you adieu; time to bike home before the rain starts xD
21:59 WebDragon left #perl6
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22:01 dalek rakudo: 78b3fcf | masak++ | t/spectest.data:
22:01 dalek rakudo: [t/spectest.data] t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET out
22:01 dalek rakudo:
22:01 dalek rakudo: This file is notoriously misbehaving (at least on certain platforms).
22:01 dalek rakudo: Commenting it out for the release.
22:01 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​78b3fcf83ee7f980dc44a0a04f0a0381bb17ce5d
22:02 risou joined #perl6
22:04 masak wow, cpanm is rocking my world.
22:04 masak miyagawa++
22:07 masak ok, announcement coming up.
22:07 masak now, it's *important* that there are not any unnecessary typos in there, so if you want to help by doing a simple task, now's yer chance :)
22:07 masak any and all proofing is appreciated.
22:08 masak also suggestions for specific things that might be worth mentioning.
22:08 * Tene offers editing services.
22:08 * frettled is back.
22:08 * frettled offers editing services as well.
22:09 masak the review link should be here any moment now.
22:09 masak or you can just go to github directly and find it there.
22:09 masak I already pushed it.
22:10 Tene Ah, that announcement.
22:10 Tene I thought this was your mysterious upcoming announcement.
22:10 masak oh, sorry to disappoint :)
22:10 masak no, still 22 days left until that one :)
22:11 masak 2 days until next clue...
22:11 dalek rakudo: 0bf28d5 | masak++ | docs/announce/2010.11:
22:11 dalek rakudo: [docs/announce/2010.11] added
22:11 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​0bf28d570920656b8cdb646bbe3a714f484b68cf
22:12 Tene I didn't notice any errors.
22:12 masak thanks.
22:12 flussence looks good to me (though I have no idea what I did worthy of mention there...)
22:13 masak "implement Cool.samecase, .subst(:samespace) and ss/// Patch partly by flussence++"
22:14 flussence oh, that :)
22:14 jnthn masak: Looks fine to me.
22:14 frettled masak: «can now index with both» -> «indexing is now possible with both
22:14 jnthn masak: I think explicator is a word. :P
22:14 frettled apart from that, very fine indeed.
22:15 masak frettled: thanks -- will fix.
22:15 masak jnthn: thanks.
22:15 masak jnthn: could you check whether it is a word, please? you got me worried :)
22:16 dalek rakudo: 03e6f5a | masak++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
22:16 dalek rakudo: [docs/release_guide.pod] slight tweaks
22:16 dalek rakudo:
22:16 dalek rakudo: The biggest improvement was probably that, since Parrot is now
22:16 dalek rakudo: git-based, PARROT_REVISION contains slightly diff'rent information.
22:16 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​03e6f5a2ada962949d7476ab6170b17efe75ce19
22:16 Guest70621 joined #perl6
22:18 jnthn masak: The verb "to explicate" most certainly exists.
22:18 jnthn Looks like it's from Latin, lit "to unfold" :)
22:18 jnthn Cute. :)
22:19 masak yup, the 'ply' root again :)
22:19 masak love that root.
22:19 jnthn masak: ah, found a dictionary that has "explicator" listed as a noun :)
22:20 jnthn masak: It felt obvious in meaning, just wasn't sure I'd seen it before. :)
22:20 jnthn 1530s, from L. explicatus,  pp. of explicare  "unfold, unravel, explain"
22:20 tylercurtis rakudo: multi foo (Str $s) { nextsame; say 'test'; }; multi foo ($s) { say 'next'; }; foo 's'
22:20 masak perfect.
22:20 dukeleto yes, explicator is definitely a word. it is often used to describe people that solve problems
22:20 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Null PMC access in clone()␤  in 'foo' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/lLVxsbODlb␤»
22:21 masak tylercurtis: I think that one's known and reported.
22:21 masak phew! :)
22:21 jnthn dukeleto: Oh? I'd have had it as somebody who explains things, but the latin root seems to fit that nicely too :)
22:22 dalek rakudo: 09489cf | masak++ | docs/announce/2010.11:
22:22 dalek rakudo: [docs/announce/2010.11] improvement in wording
22:22 dalek rakudo:
22:22 dalek rakudo: Suggested by frettled++
22:22 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​09489cf1cdbf7e1523e390f59bd864a7ec2ba7e8
22:22 dalek rakudo: cbea8a8 | masak++ | docs/announce/2010.11:
22:22 dalek rakudo: [docs/announce/2010.11] added contributor frettled++
22:22 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​cbea8a82ca61f5595cb8ea40daecd1c5b46f6944
22:22 dalek rakudo: 58d81aa | masak++ | docs/announce/2010.11:
22:22 dalek rakudo: [docs/announce/2010.11] rewording
22:22 dalek rakudo:
22:22 dalek rakudo: For the greater preposition good!
22:22 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​58d81aa57828594ce3b626c342a4a579b0320cde
22:22 jnthn .oO( I know what I want on my business card now... :) )
22:22 masak "Turns beer into code" ? :P
22:22 tylercurtis masak: I didn't realize that bug existed. I was just trying to remember which of [call|next][same|with] is which. :)
22:23 jnthn masak: :P
22:23 masak tylercurtis: bad news is it's broken. good news is that jnthn's 6model will likely fix it all.
22:23 dukeleto jnthn: "explicate" is often used to say that one person got someone else out of a bad situation, at least from what I have heard
22:23 masak dukeleto: that would be the more literal interpretation, then.
22:23 masak "to bend [someone] out"
22:24 kjeldahl left #perl6
22:24 masak dukeleto: or are you thinking of "extricate"?
22:24 tylercurtis masak: redispatch in general is broken? Or just in some cases?
22:24 masak or "extradite"? :)
22:24 masak tylercurtis: don't remember. tias?
22:25 dukeleto masak: think i was mixing it with extricate
22:25 masak I suspected that.
22:25 jnthn tylercurtis: It's fine for methods.
22:26 tylercurtis rakudo: class A { method a { say 'A::a' } }; class B is A { method a { say 'B::a'; callsame; } }; B.a
22:26 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«B::a␤A::a␤»
22:26 jnthn tylercurtis: It's never been implemented for subs.
22:26 masak that's 'trahere', "to pull".
22:26 tylercurtis jnthn: conveniently, that's what I need it for.
22:30 jnthn :)
22:31 tylercurtis Is CANDO implemented?
22:31 masak running the spectests again. might as well November-blog while I wait.
22:32 benabik joined #perl6
22:32 dalek rakudo: d39f4f6 | masak++ | VERSION:
22:32 dalek rakudo: [release] bump VERSION
22:32 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​d39f4f65cf3f3593d775eb5a3559c0f911d6626e
22:39 spq1 left #perl6
22:39 benabik left #perl6
22:40 moritz_ tylercurtis: no
22:42 tylercurtis moritz_: thanks.
22:48 tylercurtis Is there a nicer way (in Rakudo or in the spec) to add a method of variable name to a single object than adding the method to an anonymous role with .^add_method and mixing the role in?
22:49 masak you can do it all in one step :)
22:49 * mkramer1 thinks that's a nice way
22:49 masak doesn't get much nicer than that.
22:49 masak rakudo: my $x = 42 but role { method foo { say "OH HAI" }; say $x; $x.foo
22:49 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 22␤»
22:49 masak rakudo: my $x = 42 but role { method foo { say "OH HAI" } }; say $x; $x.foo
22:49 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«42␤OH HAI␤»
22:49 masak \o/
22:50 tylercurtis A method of variable name.
22:50 masak I'll have to mentally add quotes to that for it to make sense.
22:50 masak or a dollar sign.
22:50 tylercurtis A method whose name varies.
22:50 masak oh wait. the name varies... right.
22:51 masak it's not very common of them to do that, you know? we're well into metaprogramming if they do.
22:54 jnthn What's wrong with .^add_method?
22:54 jnthn oh, to a single object...
22:54 jnthn In theory
22:55 jnthn $obj by role Foo[$name] { method ::($name) () { 42 } }
22:55 jnthn gah
22:55 jnthn but
22:55 jnthn Anyway, sleeps
22:58 TimToady well, you'd have to pass the name somehow to instantiate it
23:00 Khisanth left #perl6
23:02 Guest70621 left #perl6
23:06 sorear good * #perl6
23:07 sorear moritz_: last run = 88m 13s
23:07 masak last run of what?
23:07 masak picking up jogging? :)
23:07 sorear 60.78%, wow, almost doubled for two fixes
23:09 sorear masak: roast
23:10 sorear niecza-compiled tryfile.exe
23:10 masak wow, niecza is running roast?!
23:11 diakopter even without fudging?
23:12 sorear masak: no
23:12 _kaare left #perl6
23:12 sorear tryfile is part of the STD.pm6 suite
23:12 masak oh, right. tryfile.
23:12 masak still. nice.
23:12 masak sorear++
23:13 masak all spectests are green here. 45 minutes.
23:13 * masak proceeds to next phase
23:14 tylercurtis left #perl6
23:15 masak blog post! http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/november-18​-2010-insert-obvious-in-soviet-russia-joke-here
23:23 perigrin in soviet russia joke inserts you!
23:23 * diakopter giggles
23:32 Khisanth joined #perl6
23:34 masak question: does it matter whether the release tarball contains the tags for the release or not?
23:34 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
23:35 masak the release_guide seems to suggest one should only do 'make release' once, namely before tagging HEAD.
23:38 hercynium left #perl6
23:39 masak oh; it doesn't matter, because the release tarball isn't a git checkout.
23:39 * masak uploads
23:39 redicaps joined #perl6
23:40 masak upload complete.
23:40 colomon \o/
23:40 masak if anyone would like to build and test... https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/downloads
23:41 masak wow. I hadn't looked at the download stats for Rakudo monthly releases before.
23:41 masak sharp rise after switch to ng, sharp drop after Rakudo Star release.
23:42 masak between Feb and July, inclusive, it was >200 downloads per month.
23:42 whiteknight joined #perl6
23:42 colomon now everyone wants R* instead?
23:42 masak think so.
23:42 masak would be interesting to see those figures as well.
23:42 * masak looks
23:43 masak whoa.
23:43 colomon I'm kind of sad you didn't go with A::M for the release.  ;)
23:43 masak there's some Slashdot effect involved here, I'm sure.
23:43 masak 3k releases for the first Star tarball.
23:43 masak 2.6k for the msi file.
23:43 diakopter releases?
23:44 masak 800 for the next Star tarball, 550 for the next, 500 for last month's...
23:44 masak diakopter: I don't understand the question.
23:45 colomon you meant 3k downloads.
23:45 diakopter oh
23:45 colomon we didn't release R* 3000 times, right?
23:45 colomon ;)
23:45 masak oh, sorry.
23:45 masak yes, 3k downloads.
23:47 TheHarlot oh, hey--the other day somebody mentioned something about Model 6... or something. I do not have this client set up to log... looking into it as we speak.
23:47 TheHarlot I just... uh... do not remember what it is I am looking into.
23:47 TheHarlot >.>'
23:47 colomon we didn't really do much publicity for the releases after the first, did we?
23:48 masak p6c email's away.
23:48 Tene TheHarlot: 6model
23:49 mkramer1 masak, are you counting git pulls?
23:49 Tene TheHarlot: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/
23:49 masak I take it from the release instructions that I don't need to blog the release announcement.
23:49 mkramer1 after the first r* I just started tracking rakudo head
23:49 masak mkramer1: no, those figures only take downloads into account.
23:49 masak mkramer1: I know of no way to count git clones or pulls on github.
23:50 colomon shoot, I probably did a at least 200 git pulls all by myself since R*.  :)
23:50 * masak turns off the releng mode
23:50 TheHarlot thank you Tene
23:51 masak you're now free to commit again, you wonderful people. ^^
23:51 masonkramer left #perl6
23:51 masonkramer joined #perl6
23:53 TheHarlot ah... hey... this will allow me to not reinvent the wheel... unless the particular wheel was wearing a tight dress and no practically meant yes with reinventing it.
23:54 diakopter TheHarlot: you'd want to sync with mberends so as not to duplicate/conflict work :)
23:54 diakopter the jre branch has lagged the clr branch for a few weeks
23:55 diakopter but it shouldn't be too difficult to catch up
23:56 impious joined #perl6
23:57 TheHarlot diakopter, well, I still have Java Kitty to work on... this mostly simplifies anything I need to do CJerl6-wise for Java Kitty.

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