Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-11-24

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:57 lichtkind blog post: http://blogs.perl.org/users/lichtkind/2010/11/​grantreport---perl-6-tablets---third-week.html
00:58 lichtkind good night  @all
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02:00 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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03:43 edenc how do I decl
03:43 edenc uhm
03:43 edenc how do I declare named captures in a rule?
03:45 Tene edenc: $<foo>=(...)
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03:46 edenc hmm, "symbol foo not predeclared"
03:46 edenc I have an inline code block after the match
03:47 edenc that's trying to access the value of foo
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03:47 edenc apparently, the wrong way
03:47 TimToady paste or nopaste it?
03:49 edenc https://gist.github.com/713076
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03:49 TimToady use $<id> inside the block too
03:49 edenc ah
03:49 edenc sweetness
03:52 edenc what if I want to declare a named rule multiple times and have that imply '|', as in: rule foo { '/bar' }, rule foo { '/baz' }, instead of rule foo { '/bar' | '/baz' }
03:52 diakopter protoregex
03:53 diakopter http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12​/24/day-24-the-perl-6-standard-grammar/
03:53 edenc yeah, I saw that in S05 but couldn't quite grasp how to use it
03:53 diakopter search in that article
03:53 diakopter for protoregex :)
03:54 edenc right, thanks
03:55 diakopter TimToady: is that article right?  'proto token' vs 'proto rule' ?
03:58 edenc ok, that worked, thanks
03:58 diakopter yay; /me knew something correct for once
03:58 edenc what does the "sym<>" construct after the rule name mean?
03:58 edenc and... why is it needed
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03:59 diakopter that tells the rule what <sym> means inside the rule
03:59 TimToady and remembers the string in case you want to make an operator later
03:59 diakopter so actually those literals  ('if' etc) can be replaced with  <sym>
04:00 TimToady nowadays the proto wants {*} instead of { <...> }
04:00 TimToady at least in STD, not sure whether rakudo has tracked that yet
04:00 edenc yeah, it doesn't work in rakudo
04:00 edenc I just built it fresh
04:01 TimToady dinner &
04:01 edenc I'm confused as to why I declare "proto token" but then extend it via rules
04:02 diakopter what I was asking
04:02 diakopter (also)
04:02 diakopter does it work with token also?
04:02 edenc yes
04:02 edenc I just swapped it out for rule
04:03 diakopter probably it should enforce them to be the same, I'd think
04:06 edenc swapping the literals out for <sym> doesn't work
04:06 diakopter hm
04:07 diakopter oh, try <.sym>
04:07 edenc not on rakudo, at least
04:07 edenc nope
04:07 edenc well
04:07 edenc actually
04:07 edenc I might be doing something wrong
04:08 * diakopter might be very mistaken about able to swap them out
04:08 edenc yeah, it works with literals, but obviously, doesn't work with subrules
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04:39 dalek 6model: f443c7e | diakopter++ | dotnet/runtime/Runtime/Ops/Primitive.cs:
04:39 dalek 6model: [dotnet] add a length_str Op
04:39 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/f443c7e52f
04:39 dalek 6model: c46ad28 | diakopter++ | / (5 files):
04:39 dalek 6model: [dotnet] bunches of integer expression (binary operations returning int & bool) code-generators
04:39 dalek 6model: incremental progress on regex dynamic register (for integer variables & labels) generation
04:39 dalek 6model: fix typo in DNST::Class
04:39 dalek 6model: slight adjustments in Cursor
04:39 dalek 6model: fix plan count in 28-subclass.t
04:39 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/c46ad28d45
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05:13 lue y o hai o/
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05:33 dalek mu: 714cf3a | cotto++ | misc/dalek-conf.json:
05:33 dalek mu: add plobsing's extraction of pirc to dalek
05:33 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/714cf3a233
05:47 plobsing it appears pirc has 16 open tickets
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06:21 masak lue: watched last ep of DW. laughed. cried.
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06:23 mberends masak: o/
06:23 masak mberends! \o/
06:23 * mberends -> $work :(
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06:24 * masak hopes mberends comes back soon
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07:07 ch3ck3r morgääähn
07:08 masak o/
07:10 ch3ck3r morrn masak
07:11 masak ch3ck3r: any Perl 6 plans for the day?
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07:12 ch3ck3r masak: not yet
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07:14 sorear edenc: diakopter: rule/token/regex just set the initial states of :sigspace and :ratchet, they don't affect the inherent type of the Regex object in any way
07:15 sorear token {...} is exactly equivalent to regex {:ratchet ...} or rule {:!sigspace ...}
07:15 sorear proto token, proto rule, and proto regex are all exactly the same, since {*} is not affected by regex modes
07:20 sorear hrm, nearly half of niecza-std's time was spent in the LTM module
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07:35 diakopter oh
07:46 * masak .oO( Longest-Time Matching )
07:47 sorear well, I haven't really bothered to optimize LTM up to now
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07:52 masak Su-Shee can has snow, too :) http://twitter.com/sheeshe​e/status/7339644857352192
07:53 sorear masak: you wouldn't happen to know [anyone who knows]? Croatian, would you?
07:53 masak not anyone who knows it in depth, no.
08:17 sorear masak: no, GGE is still longer-time.
08:17 masak :)
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08:56 cosimo sorear: i know one
09:03 sorear where is tadzik from?
09:03 tadzik Poland
09:03 tadzik I've been to Croatia once, but I don't think that counts :)
09:03 tadzik hello btw
09:03 masak hi, tadzik
09:04 sorear tadzik: NotFound tells me that modern Spanish has a degenerate CharLingua, and suggested that I investigate one of the Slavic languages that uses Latin or vice versa
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09:05 sorear Does Polish have any cases where .chars in grapheme mode is intuitively wrong?
09:05 tadzik I don't think I understand this
09:05 tadzik Care to provide an example?
09:07 sorear That's exactly the problem
09:07 sorear I haven't seen a single case where CharLingua is different from Grapheme
09:10 sjohnson masak: o/
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09:11 masak sjohnson: \o
09:12 sorear Grapheme is very much different from Codepoint; graphs "n̈" is 1, but codes "n̈" is 2
09:12 sorear Is there any case in Polish where graphs and chars should disagree?
09:13 tadzik oh, yes, I think
09:13 tadzik like thre is 'ch', which is 2 letters, but pronounced exactly like 'h'. Is that what you mean?
09:14 sorear imagine you know nothing about data representation and you're playing with Perl 6 for the first time.  You know that > chars "A" prints 1 and > chars "tadzik" prints 6.  What do you expect after > chars "ch" ?
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09:15 tadzik same with rz - ż
09:15 tadzik sorear: 2 chars
09:15 sorear Would you expect 1 after chars "ż"?
09:16 tadzik for there are exceptions: marznąć is pronounced "marznąć", not mażnąć
09:16 tadzik sorear: yes
09:17 sorear tadzik: are there any basic string operations that intuitively should treat "rz" as a unit?
09:18 tadzik I don't think so
09:19 tadzik it matters only when speaking
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09:42 dalek niecza: 6a9add7 | sorear++ | lib/Cursor.cs:
09:42 dalek niecza: Use a more clever algorithm for collecting fates
09:42 dalek niecza:
09:42 dalek niecza: Takes 12% off STD SAFE.setting time.
09:42 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/6a9add7829
09:45 sorear one thing I'm quickly learning is that System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`1 and all its kin are hopelessly inefficient
09:46 moritz_ that's basically a hash, right?
09:51 sorear yes
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09:54 sorear the one gripe I have with the mono profiler is how it handles recursive functions
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10:02 dalek rakudo: de61cd9 | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
10:02 dalek rakudo: bump PARROT_REVISION to get some testing
10:02 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/de61cd9e8c
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10:33 dalek niecza: b77fc74 | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
10:33 dalek niecza: Use preallocated Bool objects
10:33 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/b77fc742ed
10:33 dalek niecza: 923d289 | sorear++ | lib/Cursor.cs:
10:33 dalek niecza: Avoid reallocating Close buffer
10:33 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/923d2899b0
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10:37 jnthn o/ #perl6
10:38 moritz_ \o
10:40 masak jnthn: \o
10:40 jnthn masak! \o/
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10:43 ch3ck masak's one is a hitler smiley
10:43 * sorear out
10:43 moritz_ ch3ck: not every stretched out arm is a hitler greeting
10:45 ch3ck the one in the smiley is very straight upwards
10:45 masak still, it's nice to have triggered the Godwin switch. we don't do that very often in here at all.
10:45 ch3ck just like they did
10:45 moritz_ so what? soccer referees use that gesture all the time too
10:46 masak moritz_: oh wow. I never realized that.
10:46 ch3ck masak is a soccer referee?
10:46 ch3ck oO
10:46 masak ch3ck: I must say your logic is impeccable.
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10:49 ch3ck the logic is very clear.. if this greeting is used mainly by soccer referees and nazis, i hope you're a soccer referee
10:49 moritz_ actually I'm not a good swimmer, but I suspect that if you swim the crawl, there are also times when you extend one arm
10:49 moritz_ so I kinda think that masak++ is a swimmer
10:50 masak yes, but I swim like this: /o\
10:50 masak :)
10:50 moritz_ as a table tennis referee I usually don't put the arm up that high, but ASCII gives little choice regarding the angle for the forward slash
10:51 moritz_ masak: with deflector shields at the front? :-)
10:51 huf i dont think it's the greeting that makes the nazi
10:52 huf rather, the murderous rampage ;)
10:52 moritz_ ... which masak only displays towards bugs :-)
10:52 huf awwwww. hug a bug?
10:53 huf good thing version control keeps them alive indefinitely :)
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10:53 moritz_ hugme: hug ch3ck
10:53 * hugme hugs ch3ck
10:55 ch3ck well, we could just wait and see if masak one day makes a /nick massaker
10:55 ch3ck or even with the 2 s upper case
10:56 ch3ck if not, he probably is a swimmer or a soccer referee :D
10:56 moritz_ or maybe just a normal-ish dude who happens to like ASCII art
10:57 moritz_ (I wouldn't go as far as calling masak "normal" :-)
10:57 masak thanks, I think. :)
10:57 moritz_ you're welcome
10:57 moritz_ otoh I don't think I've ever met somebody whom I'd call "normal"
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11:00 jnthn I did once. I was stood up and they were lying down. Seemed very normal to me.
11:01 moritz_ ah, the pain
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11:03 thepain ;)
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11:03 moritz_ hugme: hug thepain
11:03 * hugme hugs thepain
11:04 ch3ck hugme: hug me
11:04 * hugme hugs ch3ck
11:04 ch3ck thx
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11:20 tadzik new rakudo can't make reaclclean
11:21 tadzik one needs to manually perl Configure.pl so the Makefile works
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11:23 masak not sure I follow. you're saying you have to generate the Makefile in order to do 'make realclean'? how could it not be so?
11:24 tadzik masak: things changed, and Makefile used files that now do not exist
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12:01 masak tadzik: hm, that does sound wrong.
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12:07 jnthn Mmmm....bratwurst for lunch :)
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12:08 tadzik masak: they have removed PIRC, and the old makefile referred to it; new one does not
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12:19 masak tadzik: is there an easy/obvious fix?
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12:23 moritz_ tadzik: just use 'git clean -xdf' to clear out your parrot repo
12:24 moritz_ or use a fresh checkout
12:24 tadzik moritz_: I manually regenerated the makefile and then --gen-parrot worde
12:25 tadzik * worked
12:26 tadzik masak: what I said
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13:25 takadonet morning all
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13:26 masak takadonet: \o
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14:00 ch3ck masak: \o
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15:26 muixirt current parrot/rakudo spit out some error messages for perl6 spectest
15:27 muixirt past experience say I do something wrong then I get weird error messages :-)
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16:24 muixirt getting some 'invalid pointer' messages while spectesting
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16:28 muixirt hmm, t/spec/S02-literals/char-by-number.rakudo hangs, without eating cpu time
16:28 colomon muixirt: what platform?
16:29 muixirt linux x86-64
16:30 colomon I'll give it a try here.
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16:38 colomon building...
16:39 muixirt sh*t, can't reproduce it
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16:50 takadonet anyone noticed the whole speed up when running an empty perl6 script?
16:50 gfldex parrot++
16:50 takadonet s /whole/huge/
16:51 gfldex :)
16:51 takadonet gfldex: was that you? :)
16:51 gfldex no
16:51 gfldex i'm not good with birds
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16:52 takadonet on the latest rakudo star it average around 1.3 s and on the latest compiler i get .8 s
16:53 gfldex they improved the GC and fixed a few memory leaks
16:53 takadonet by a lot it seems
16:53 takadonet that is a big difference
16:54 gfldex the old GC was rather horrible :)
16:54 gfldex i can't wait to see the JIT to come back
16:54 gfldex we will need seat belts :D
16:55 muixirt gfldex: keep on dreaming
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16:58 takadonet muixirt: why is that?
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17:01 muixirt takadonet: first of all is jitting not the answer to rakudo perf problems
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17:02 muixirt second I doubt that a Parrot with JIT will materialize in the near future (let's say in 12 months)
17:02 takadonet muixirt: ok good to know
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17:06 muixirt and as far I can remember the former Parrot jit system didn't work with perl6/rakudo (most of the time?)
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17:08 muixirt takadonet: but as a dev you do know better than me, what's your take?
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17:09 takadonet module developer not core good sir :)
17:09 muixirt (but, of course, a significant smaller startup time *is* progress)
17:09 takadonet well that what everyone was complain when rakudo star was release
17:10 takadonet so if we can speed up that startup time, perhaps more people would be interesting in hacking with perl 6
17:12 muixirt I agree
17:14 moritz_ well, currently all built-in types are created at startup time
17:14 moritz_ that's very costly
17:15 moritz_ if we could build them at compile time (we can), and then serialize them (we can't yet), we would just need to deserialize the types at startup
17:15 moritz_ actually the first "we can" is also only partially true
17:15 moritz_ jnthn++ is working on both points
17:17 muixirt colomon: do the tests work for you
17:18 colomon muixirt: spectest is still running, but no fails at all into S05 as far as I can tell
17:18 muixirt colomon: in the second run I got other errors, like
17:18 muixirt t/spec/integration/man-or-boy.t ................................ 1/10 *** glibc detected *** ./perl6: free(): invalid next size (normal): 0x0000000006638620 ***
17:19 moritz_ muixirt: welcome to the wonderful world of parrot GC
17:19 diakopter sigh; it fails man-or-boy now
17:19 muixirt moritz_: so these errors are known?
17:20 diakopter "it" used loosely
17:20 moritz_ muixirt: I get some random test failures
17:20 moritz_ typically between 2 and 4 per spectest run
17:22 muixirt moritz_: I thought I did something wrong here (parrot fulltest was clean)
17:22 moritz_ muixirt: either it's an old rakudo bug that has been triggered by the new GC, or rakudo just exercises parrot much more thoroughly than parrot's own test suite
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17:23 moritz_ well, the latter wouldn't be enws at all
17:23 moritz_ *news
17:26 muixirt well I don't see a better startup time
17:27 am0c left #perl6
17:27 colomon looks like t/spec/S19-command-line/dash-e.t failed
17:27 colomon (spectest still running)
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17:30 isBEKaml hello, #perl6! :)
17:32 colomon \o
17:32 isBEKaml colomon: surprisingly silent here. Long weekend? :)
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17:34 colomon The long weekend has not yet started for me.  :)
17:34 moritz_ long weekend? no such thing in the old worold
17:35 isBEKaml Oh, I don't know. I have seen lazy weekends and busy ones. ;)
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17:38 colomon hmmm... looks like I got the "Parse errors: No plan found in TAP output" error for about seven files in spectest
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17:38 moritz_ colomon: with local patches?
17:38 colomon moritz_: nope, fresh checkout
17:39 colomon t/spec/S05-modifier/ignorecase....
17:39 colomon ===SORRY!===
17:39 colomon Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 41
17:39 colomon that's ... different
17:39 moritz_ works here
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17:39 moritz_ two failing TODO tests at the end
17:40 moritz_ but that's to be expected
17:41 colomon huh.  unicode issues?
17:41 isBEKaml moritz_: Parrot moved to git completely? So, does rakudo build with --gen-parrot checkout the parrot git tree now?
17:41 colomon isBEKaml: yes
17:41 colomon moritz_++
17:41 isBEKaml o// moritz_++
17:42 colomon on the other hand, t/spec/S32-trig/cosh.t failed during "make spectest" and was fine when run directly.
17:42 colomon sigh.
17:43 isBEKaml that reminds me, I still have to package rakudo for Slackbuilds.org. Slow builds on an ancient machine put me off. :|
17:43 isBEKaml parrot builds are available now without the git modifications, though.
17:44 impious left #perl6
17:45 isBEKaml I'll give it a try at packaging again this weekend.
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18:21 muixirt moritz_: wrt Ticket #1871, does it really segfault? (error conditions intercepted by glibc)
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18:39 moritz_ muixirt: it exits with status 11. Afaict that's a segfault
18:41 MayDaniel left #perl6
18:48 muixirt ok, I saw exit status 6 too
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18:49 lue ohai o/
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19:39 sorear good * #perl6
19:39 sjohnson hi
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19:40 tadzik hello
19:40 takadonet sorear: yo
19:42 colomon \o
19:43 sjohnson colomon !
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21:13 dalek 6model: b34f13f | diakopter++ | dotnet/runtime/Runtime/Ops/Boxing.cs:
21:13 dalek 6model: [dotnet] add variants of the boxing Ops that use the current thread's default types' representations
21:13 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/b34f13f759
21:13 dalek 6model: ecb0d09 | diakopter++ | dotnet/compiler/DNST (2 files):
21:13 dalek 6model: [dotnet] add $!type and $!result parameters to DNST::If, so the result temporary can optionally be ignored/left out,
21:13 dalek 6model: and if not, the type can be set (other than the default RakudoObject.
21:13 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/ecb0d0916d
21:13 dalek 6model: 8fd401d | diakopter++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
21:13 dalek 6model: [dotnet] finish the success path of PAST::Regex(:pasttype('literal')), of which I'm proud:
21:13 dalek 6model: $stmts.push(if_then(
21:13 dalek 6model:     ge(emit_call($*re_tgt, 'IndexOf', 'int', lits((@($r))[0]), lit($*re_pos) ), lit(0)),
21:13 dalek 6model:     DNST::Bind.new($*re_pos, plus(lit($*re_pos), lit(pir::length((@($r))[0]))))
21:13 dalek 6model: ));
21:13 dalek 6model: Compiles to C# string ops using C# ints.
21:13 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/8fd401d797
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22:37 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_lookup_tablet
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22:53 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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22:58 lichtkind added scope declerator
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23:12 sorear %foo{$bar} is about 90 times slower than perl 5... hmm
23:12 sorear for me
23:17 diakopter how many reps
23:17 sorear 100,000, why does it matter?
23:17 diakopter just hoping it was more than 1 or something
23:17 sorear also it looks like an artefact of "slow" Num->Str coercions
23:17 diakopter (sry)
23:18 sorear no, 1 iteration is below my limits of measurement
23:18 sorear I run stuff enough times to fill up a 5-30s timing window
23:18 sorear (9s)
23:19 sorear yeah, down to 4.7s after implementing an optimized Num.Str
23:19 dalek niecza: 8e193aa | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
23:19 dalek niecza: Implement optimized Num.Str coercion
23:19 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/8e193aa75b
23:19 sorear I usually go for shorter runs when using the profiler, since it has rather high overhead
23:20 sorear I think it calls gettimeofday twice per function call... insane
23:20 sorear seriously there has to be a faster way.  why can't I just mmap("/dev/jiffies/")
23:26 dual left #perl6
23:26 sorear oh dear
23:27 diakopter I guess to keep the overheard somewhat consistent across platforms
23:27 diakopter overhead
23:27 sorear if this profile is to be beleived, System.Double.ToString alone takes more microseconds than a single iteration of $hash{$i} = $i on Perl 5
23:27 sorear (2.5)
23:28 * sorear goes prying in NumberFormatter to see what's wasting so many cycles
23:29 sorear *headdesk* It's written in C#
23:29 sorear Not an icall
23:30 sorear No wonder it's so slow
23:30 diakopter well it has to conform to the spec, which might not....
23:31 diakopter actually, technically, it is supposed to conform to .net....
23:31 hacktor joined #perl6
23:31 dalek star: 8d848b7 | pmichaud++ | / (2 files):
23:31 dalek star: Update Rakudo and Parrot version numbers.
23:31 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/8d848b7a89
23:31 dalek star: 5d02f3d | pmichaud++ | / (2 files):
23:31 dalek star: Update Makefiles; disable neutro for this release (it doesn't build).
23:31 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/5d02f3df33
23:32 dual joined #perl6
23:32 sorear this code is ridiculous
23:32 sorear it uses thread-local singletons.
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23:42 lichtkind good night
23:42 lichtkind left #perl6
23:44 sorear diakopter: the spec doesn't say whether any given method is C or C#
23:44 sorear System.Runtime.Serialization means that Mono classes need to have exactly the same fields as their .NET counterparts, but doesn't affect methods
23:45 diakopter yeah; for all those operations on value types that are very small sizes, they should definitely be copied/sent to much more native editions.
23:50 sorear well, Perl 5 is just using sprintf
23:50 sorear it's not *particularly* native
23:52 dalek niecza: 1bda7f5 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
23:52 dalek niecza: Use simplifier to optimize simple &postcircumfix calls
23:52 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/1bda7f52a1
23:53 cdarroch left #perl6
23:53 sorear 46.9 -> 43.2
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23:58 dalek niecza: 7d54b1c | sorear++ | / (3 files):
23:58 dalek niecza: Optimize &defined as a builtin
23:58 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/7d54b1c473

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