Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-11-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 orafu joined #perl6
00:00 ingy star: $_ = 'hello'; .say()
00:00 p6eval star 2010.09:  ( no output )
00:01 ingy star: 'hi'.say
00:01 p6eval star 2010.09:  ( no output )
00:04 ingy star: say 'hi'
00:04 p6eval star 2010.09:  ( no output )
00:04 sjohnson rakudo: say 'hi'
00:04 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«hi␤»
00:04 sjohnson .oO(???)
00:05 ingy rakudo: $_ = 'hi'; .say
00:05 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«hi␤»
00:05 ingy rakudo: $_ = 'hi'; .= ' world';.say
00:05 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near ".= ' world"␤»
00:05 ingy rakudo: $_ = 'hi'; $_ .= ' world';.say
00:06 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Quoted method name requires parenthesized arguments at line 22, near ";.say"␤»
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00:12 ingy sorear: what debian mono package should I install for niecza?
00:13 ingy niecza: say 'sorear'
00:13 p6eval niecza 914f55d: OUTPUT«sorear␤»
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00:25 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_lookup_tablet
00:25 diakopter ingy: I didn't know there was one..
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00:30 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_lookup_tablet
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00:36 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
00:56 sorear ingy: dunno, I installed from source.  I know you need libmono2.0-cil
00:56 sorear moritz would have the full list
00:58 sorear you'll also definitely need mono-gmcs and mono-xbuild
00:59 sorear ah! mono-complete
00:59 sorear "Install this package if you want to run software ... not ... from a Debian package"
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01:43 sorear TimToady: What do <( and )> do in subrules?
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01:50 ingy sorear: where is the name Niecza from?
01:50 sorear masak
01:50 ingy any idea what it means
01:51 sorear it's a badly misremembered line from a joke dub of a music video on youtime
01:51 sorear ube
01:51 ingy cool
01:53 ingy sorear: I just showed Damian the irc log
01:54 ingy he thought I said Nietzsche earlier
01:54 ingy and he thinks it should actually be called Nietzsche
01:55 colomon "That which does not crash you makes you stronger."
01:55 ingy that which requires mono-complete makes you stronger
01:56 colomon ingy: ask Damian how his p6 modules are coming.  :)
01:58 sorear ingy: which irc log?
02:01 sorear also, the name Nietzsche is ... taken.
02:05 * sorear can't imagine Niecza is very TheDamian-compatible
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02:08 TimToady sorear: all they do is change .from and .to, as usual
02:12 sorear TimToady: consider my regex foo { a )> b }; "abc" ~~ /<&foo>c/; "ab" ~~ /<&foo>b/
02:12 sorear which one matches?
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02:20 TimToady the second one does
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02:21 TimToady what follows )> is like a lookahead
02:25 ingy sorear: /tmp/tmp52a1123b.tmp: 1: viv: not found
02:25 ingy what's viv?
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04:35 sorear ingy: still here?
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04:47 * sorear waits for ingy to return.
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06:17 kthakore Hello, is a perl6ier way of injecting scalar references into a callback's scope? In perl5 I do  $foo->set_callback( set{ _local_callback( @_, $local_in_scope_scalar ) } ) a lot.
06:17 kthakore or does that just mean a bad design .... prolly the later ...
06:18 kthakore oops also s/set/sub/g
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06:22 TimToady my $lexical; $foo.set_callback( -> $param { whatever($param,$foo) } );
06:22 TimToady er
06:23 TimToady my $lexical; $foo.set_callback( -> $param { whatever($param,$lexical) } );
06:23 TimToady the lexical comes from the lexical scope, the parameter is passed by the caller of the callback
06:24 kthakore wow this is magic!
06:24 TimToady just like in Perl 5, except you get to name your parameters
06:24 kthakore I really need to get SDL working with Parrot
06:25 TimToady seems to me it was long ago, but likely has suffered bitrot
06:25 kthakore TimToady: parrotSDL ? I forked it a few months ago, but parrot was a moving target
06:25 kthakore it was working for a while though
06:26 kthakore so let me get this straight ... if I do -> $param { whatever ($param, $lexical ) }
06:27 kthakore in whatever( ) I can just us $param and $lexical?
06:27 kthakore use*
06:27 kthakore no need to do 'my ($param, $lexical) = @_' ?
06:27 TimToady yes, P6 has real parameters now
06:28 kthakore .... -.-
06:28 kthakore ok I really need to get parrotSDL caught up now
06:28 TimToady well, $lexical isn't a parameter, but yes
06:28 kthakore thanks TimToady
06:28 TimToady you could write it sub ($param) {...} if you want it to look more p5ish
06:29 kthakore ok I am confused ...
06:29 kthakore sub ($param) ?
06:29 kthakore is that like sub { my $param = shift ...
06:29 TimToady yes
06:29 kthakore ah ok
06:29 TimToady you can have multiple parameters
06:29 kthakore sorry if I didn't get that right away ... I am pulling an all nighter
06:30 kthakore What I am really interested in is the perl 6 grammar stuff ... but I am not sure if it is the same as what I am thinking.
06:31 kthakore A while ago I was making a context free grammar language in ANTLR for MAgic the Gathering card rules.
06:31 TimToady p6 grammars are something like that
06:32 kthakore Magic The Gathering Card rules are essentially ( {Target} {Action} {modifier} ... so on)
06:32 kthakore TimToady: are as powerful as context free or similar to regular expressions?
06:33 kthakore cause using regex for that stuff was really really painful
06:33 TimToady they are as powerful as you want them to be
06:34 kthakore hehe ... I should have seen that coming
06:34 TimToady they can be context sensitive if you like
06:34 kthakore context sensitive as in @_ or $ context?
06:34 TimToady that depends on your language definition
06:34 kthakore I meant context free grammars as in defining a way to 'parse' text rules
06:34 kthakore I am not really good at this stuff bascially
06:34 kthakore I want to be able to do this
06:35 kthakore ' [Green Cards] {destroy} {turn} ' = Destroy all green cards this turn
06:35 kthakore where ' [Green Cards] {destroy} {turn} ' is the card rule
06:36 kthakore so this would be converted into a subroutine ...
06:36 kthakore nah ... that would be crazy ...
06:36 kthakore or possible?
06:36 TimToady anything is possible, and some things are easy
06:36 sorear doing NLP with Perl 6 is on the crazy side
06:36 sorear but good crazy
06:36 kthakore but is it NLP?
06:36 kthakore because I use notations to tell what is the target
06:36 TimToady sounds pretty restricted to me
06:36 sorear oh
06:36 sorear I misunderstood
06:37 sorear thought you'd be parsing the card text
06:37 kthakore no no
06:37 kthakore that converted manually
06:37 kthakore hold on let me see if I have the XML we converted
06:39 kthakore yay! Found it!
06:39 kthakore hold on getting it some place public
06:39 * kthakore dusts off the xml
06:39 sorear if you have xml why not use it?
06:41 kthakore I will explain
06:41 kthakore again you are too fast ;)
06:42 kthakore sorear: TimToady http://sdlperl.ath.cx/mtg/
06:42 kthakore C[Self: | Damage:Player,Waiting](Player:Waiting | Discard:1): is pretty much the 'rule' of the card
06:43 kthakore So it does 'Damage the waiting player and make the player discard a card'
06:43 kthakore C means it is only works in a certain phase
06:44 kthakore ... I forgot this ... wow this was sooo long ago
06:44 kthakore sorear: I was trying to make a grammar for this in Antlr so I could make it applicable on the game state some how
06:44 _twitch joined #perl6
06:45 kthakore my plan was to 'parse' this XML into subroutines ...
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06:45 masak morning, #perl6!
06:45 * kthakore stays quite now while people look at his stupid insane thing ....
06:45 kthakore hi masak
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06:53 sorear hi masak
06:57 kthakore so ... is that language possible to parse in perl6 grammars?
06:57 kthakore or do I need to define my language better?
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07:09 kthakore hmm I guess you guys are busy I am gonna head to sleep
07:10 masak kthakore: not busy, just low activity right now.
07:10 masak kthakore: I haven't finished backlogging. when I do, I'll have a look.
07:11 sorear kthakore: perl 6 grammars contain a Turing complete language, so they can parse any recursively enumerable language
07:11 sorear your question is not very meaningful
07:14 kthakore sorear: you are right I guess... I don't know how to ask a meaningful question here. I guess my real question is 'Given a card game, with rules defined by each card in play. How to generate a subroutine based on it's rule? '
07:14 kthakore I thought grammars was the way to go ... but maybe not
07:15 sorear grammars are the way to go for inputting data from adhoc text files
07:15 sorear if you have XML, you should use an XML parser.  Not a grammar.
07:18 kthakore sorear: I don't think you understant ...
07:18 kthakore I am not trying to parse XML
07:18 kthakore http://sdlperl.ath.cx/mtg/EasyMTGCardsSyntax.xml
07:19 kthakore see <Card> .... <Rule> C[Self: | Damage:Player,Waiting](Player:Waiting | Discard:1): </Rule> ....
07:19 sorear ick
07:19 kthakore the text I am trying to parse is ' C[Self: | Damage:Player,Waiting](Player:Waiting | Discard:1):  '
07:19 sorear you combine all the disadvantages of ad-hoc text with all the disadvantages of XML
07:19 kthakore sigh ...
07:20 kthakore this is not about XML sorear
07:20 kthakore ignore the xml I am sorry I picked it too
07:20 masak sjohnson: what's your criterion for a decent hex editor? would it be very hard to write one?
07:20 kthakore sorear: I want to parse something like ' C[Self: | Damage:Player,Waiting](Player:Waiting | Discard:1):  '
07:21 kthakore into a function that I can call like $card->apply_effect()
07:21 sorear You'll confuse yourself less if you use an AST.
07:22 * masak stands back and lets sorear++ handle this
07:22 sorear Make a few classes, have the grammar produce a tree of objects representing the card, then write a recursive function to apply the effect
07:23 kthakore ah ok
07:24 kthakore so each node on the tree will have something like $node->target, $node->effect, $node->modifier ?
07:24 kthakore and then I will work from the bottom of the tree up?
07:25 sorear I'd have to see your code to decide thayt
07:25 kthakore ok
07:25 kthakore I am in design phase as my first prototype is in C# and ANTLR
07:25 kthakore ... and I am looking for a better way to tokenize, parse, and make an AST
07:26 sorear What does C[Self: | Damage:Player,Waiting](Player:Waiting | Discard:1): mean?
07:26 sorear (it's been about 10 years since I last played M:tG)
07:26 kthakore it means Damage the waiting player with same health as self ( the caller)
07:27 kthakore and make tha same player discard a card
07:27 kthakore sorear: the rules are very complex .... *sigh*
07:27 sorear I know the rules, mostly
07:27 sorear but I won't remember them without prompting
07:27 sorear How does it say that?
07:27 kthakore I had this for a third year design project (2 years ago) and it still haunts me
07:27 kthakore sorear: in english?
07:27 sorear Where does it say "same health"?
07:27 kthakore Self: | Damage:Player,Waiting
07:28 sorear kthakore: English would be ideal, yes
07:28 kthakore yeah let me get that sorry
07:28 sorear What are the other options?
07:28 kthakore oops I forget C[ ] means a condition
07:28 kthakore http://www.coolstuffinc.com/main_viewCar​d.php?Card_Name=Abyssal%20Specter&amp;vi​ewtype=Magic%20the%20Gathering%20Cards
07:28 sorear What does Self: mean by itself?
07:29 kthakore the player I guess
07:29 kthakore my language making skills are really bad :(
07:29 kthakore how do I define a good language for this ....
07:29 sorear What does Damage:Player,Waiting mean?
07:29 kthakore whenever abyssal specter deals damage to a player, that player discards a card.
07:29 kthakore C[ ] is the condition ....
07:30 sorear What is 2bb?
07:30 sorear I remember what 2w, 2r, etc are
07:30 kthakore 2 black mana
07:30 kthakore err
07:30 kthakore 2 other cards
07:30 sorear What's the difference between 2b and 2bb?
07:30 kthakore blue and black
07:30 kthakore bb = black
07:30 kthakore yeah ... it is stupid ...
07:31 kthakore oh wait no no
07:31 kthakore that is 2 any colored card and 2 black cards
07:31 kthakore 2 bb
07:31 sorear so bbbb or bbww or bbrg etc?
07:31 kthakore bbbb 4 black cards
07:31 kthakore bbwww 2 black 2 white
07:31 kthakore yeah
07:32 kthakore the number means any mana color
07:32 sorear I remember now
07:32 kthakore so my real problem I guess is to define a better language for this?
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07:32 sorear What does 'Waiting' mean in your example language?
07:33 kthakore Player who is waiting to play
07:33 kthakore other player
07:33 kthakore I guess
07:33 kthakore there is a playing player and waiting player
07:35 kthakore sorear: I know I have to redesign the language. However I was wondering if going into perl6 grammar was the correct direction for the implementation of such a game?
07:37 moritz_ perl 6 grammars are good for parsing that kind of stuff
07:37 moritz_ the rest of the implementation should not be done with grammers :-)
07:38 kthakore moritz_: indeed ... that will be done with other stuff
07:39 kthakore ok I really need to go to sleep
07:39 kthakore thank you folks
07:40 sorear kthakore: Every time I've played m:tg, there have been 5-10 players, and I've been allowed to attack any of them.  That's not standard form?
07:40 sorear ok
07:41 masak someone seems disappointed: http://twitter.com/predomin​ant/status/7947907076460544
07:42 masak but actually, Inf has some problems that we haven't yet resolved. the biggest one perhaps that it needs to act both as Int & Num & Str
07:42 kthakore sorear: yeah but I have to start some where simple
07:42 kthakore masak: bah don't listen to them
07:42 kthakore haha
07:43 masak kthakore: I don't let my happiness be contingent on things people say on Twitter, but I do pay attention to them.
07:43 masak kthakore: Twitter has this wonderful way of letting you hear things you might otherwise turn a blind eye to.
07:44 masak s/blind eye/deaf ear/ # mixing of metaphors
07:44 sorear I think I'd be doing something along the lines of class AbyssalSpecter does Card[power => 2, toughness => 3, type => 'specter', cost => '2bb'] { method onDamage($taget) { $target.discard } }
07:44 sorear then use eval to load the card file
07:45 kthakore sorear: ... 0o
07:45 kthakore I couldn't do that in C# .... that is why I didn't consider eval!
07:46 * kthakore curses
07:46 kthakore omg ... shit ... wow .... I mader this soooooooooooooo hard
07:46 * kthakore facepalms
07:47 kthakore sorear: thank you ... so much ... and now I really need to go
07:47 masak some harsh criticism here: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ebp​jt/perl_6_rakudo_star_201011_has_been_released/
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07:50 kthakore masak: oh yeah I saw that ... but you know what that means ... they are disappointed ... because they had expectations !!!
07:50 kthakore masak: so it is good hahah
07:50 masak also, the criticism that isn't raving lunacy is often spot on.
07:50 masak Rakudo has a high memory footprint and runs slowly.
07:50 kthakore indeed but parrot is slimming up
07:51 kthakore and I think rakudo and parrot feedback loop is gonna get it right soon ... ish
07:51 masak whatever. until it's fixed, the criticism is valid.
07:51 masak those are big problems, and they don't have easy fixes.
07:51 masak yes, people are working on them.
07:51 kthakore yeah
07:51 kthakore please keep doing it!
07:51 kthakore I can't wait to get SDL onto perl6
07:51 masak but I have quite a lot of sympathy for those who write Rakudo off due to it being slow or memory-hungry.
07:52 kthakore then have lots of games!
07:52 kthakore in perl6
07:52 sorear niecza: sub fib($n) { $n == 0 ?? 1 !! $n == 1 ?? 1 !! fib($n-1) + fib($n-2) }; say fib(25)
07:52 am0c joined #perl6
07:52 p6eval niecza 914f55d: OUTPUT«121393␤»
07:53 masak the main reason for Rakudo not being faster and slimmer already is that developing Perl 6 is non-trivial.
07:53 masak the past five years have been spent implementing and re-implementing tooling on Parrot just to be able to handle the requirements that Perl 6 poses.
07:53 masak it takes time and effort, and it brought us to this point. that's awesome, but we're not done yet.
07:54 masak most any outsider will look in and see that we're not done yet, but fail to see the massive amount of effort that went into getting us to this point.
07:58 kthakore masak: I am an outsider (if you will grant me that), and you know what I see? Smart People working Real Hard.
07:58 kthakore So I cut a lot of slack there
07:58 kthakore seriously if people can't understand that ... well w/e
07:59 kthakore but there are some who do (i.e. me )
07:59 masak indeed. kthakore++
08:00 masak nevertheless, this is a case where deeds speak louder than words. if someone does something cool with Perl 6 (such as the URL dispatcher grammar last week), people will pay attention and get interested.
08:00 masak and then the speed and memory footprint doesn't matter that much anymore.
08:00 kthakore I mean I tried to help with string IO in parrot ... failed sooooo miserably
08:00 masak perhaps not the simplest aspect to help with.
08:00 kthakore masak: immutable string IO ?
08:00 sorear I don't like this notion of Smart People and Non-Smart People
08:01 kthakore sorear: it is probably not right, but it is how I see it
08:01 masak sorear: neither do I, but I tend to let it slip when it's a compliment. :)
08:02 kthakore sorear: can I put it like this? People who are more competent and capable and productive at compiler design then I am working really hard on a problem
08:02 kthakore hence proble not easy so give them slack.
08:02 kthakore problem*
08:02 sorear pmichaud and jnthn leave me utterly awed too, but I don't let that stop me from contributing
08:03 kthakore I never said I won't contribute
08:03 kthakore I have tried when I have time
08:03 kthakore I do it in parrot at times
08:03 kthakore I was just explaining how my last attempt to add a String IO bug feature was a total bust
08:04 kthakore sorear: still hasn't stopped me :D I am just biding my time till xmas break to get back into parrot
08:04 kthakore s/bug//g
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08:06 sorear in other news, making indexing efficient is... a lot harder than I expected
08:07 cosimo joined #perl6
08:07 kthakore sorear++ masak++ thanks guys and bye for real now ...
08:07 sorear more than half of STD's time is being spent in return if @*MEMOS[$¢.pos]<ws>:exists; now
08:07 masak pmichaud and jnthn leave me utterly awed too, but I don't let that stop me from using my sledgehammer. :P
08:09 sorear (in other other news, niecza-compiled STD is now outperforming viv on the "parse niecza lib/SAFE.setting" benchmark)
08:09 moritz_ \o/
08:10 masak sorear: neat!
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08:12 masak I think the most useless entries by far in day-of-year articles on Wikipedia are those that chronicle the forming of US college fraternities. who, besides perhaps those that used to belong to it, cares?
08:14 moritz_ ... with greek TLAs, often without meaning
08:14 masak exactly.
08:15 masak Phi Sigma Sigma was founded today, 97 years ago. FSS!
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08:25 jnthn Writing talks the day I'm giving them. I do it for dotnet events too.
08:25 masak :)
08:25 * jnthn busily slide hacks
08:30 * masak eyes $¢ warily. again.
08:32 sorear ?
08:32 QinGW left #perl6
08:32 jnthn masak: Like to give us your 2 cents on that?
08:33 masak sure.
08:33 * moritz_ expected such a *pun*chline
08:33 masak I completely missed that :P
08:34 masak anyway, I don't see the rationale for making it a non-ASCII identifier just to make it one character long.
08:35 masak we used to have a ¥ operator, but we decided against it. it became Z instead.
08:35 moritz_ I think the point is that it shouldn't be colliding with normal user-space variables
08:36 moritz_ rakudo: say '¢' ~~ /\w/
08:36 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«␤»
08:36 moritz_ rakudo: say so '¢' ~~ /\w/
08:36 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
08:36 masak right, so it's in the same class as $_ and $/
08:36 moritz_ right
08:37 masak and those have to be one-char.
08:41 moritz_ maybe you could make it $¢/! but that wouldn't have any advantage over one char
08:42 masak I was going to argue for $MATCH or some such, but I think I buy your argument about it needing to be a one-char non-\w identifier.
08:43 jnthn I guess it'd be $CURSOR rtahre than $MATCH
08:43 moritz_ but that would be a bit much CURSing in the source
08:43 masak jnthn: oh, right. thanks.
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08:47 jnthn moritz_: yeah, no shit.
08:47 Achilles14 hi all, is there a compiler that can compile perl6 source to .pbc file? I can not find it in perl6 command line options.
08:48 moritz_ Achilles14: rakudo can do it
08:48 moritz_ Achilles14: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-​6/my-first-executable.writeback
08:52 Achilles14 moritz_: thanks, it works.
08:52 moritz_ \o/
08:52 moritz_ at some point somebody should write a --compile option or so for rakudo
08:53 jnthn --target=pbc would be nais.
08:53 Achilles14 moritz_: I remember early parrot version have this tool.
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08:55 Achilles14 another question: is there anything like java's CLASSPATH, that I can deploy my program and dependencies seperately?
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08:57 moritz_ there's a PERL6LIB environment variable
08:57 moritz_ rakudo: say ~@*INC
08:57 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«lib /home/p6eval/.perl6/lib /home/p6eval/p1/lib/parrot/2.1​0.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib .␤»
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09:00 Achilles14 can lib be pbc? so any programming language can use it. I think PERL6LIB is not the answer. may be something like PARROT_LIB be.
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09:03 Achilles14 "parrot -M./common.pbc main.pbc", something like this.
09:04 moritz_ Perl 6 libraries can be precompiled, but you still need the source around
09:04 moritz_ there are ways to load foreign libs, but currently they aren't as simple as we'd like them to be
09:04 wallberg hi all
09:05 moritz_ hi wallberg
09:05 masak wallberg! \o/
09:05 Achilles14 wallberg! \o/
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09:08 wallberg masak: i've made up my mind now. i'll have a go at making a phylogenetic program in Perl 6, which is the best way I can contribute to Perl 6. but I will need some help, especially with the grammars to read a newick tree :-)
09:08 masak wallberg: absolutely.
09:08 masak wallberg: pro tip: write tests for your grammar.
09:08 masak that way, you won't regress on silly things.
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09:09 masak beyond that, I'm more than willing to help with the nitty gritty stuff.
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09:09 masak so, I guess, are many others around here.
09:09 moritz_ wallberg: pro tip: read http://perlgeek.de/en/arti​cle/debug-a-perl-6-grammar :-)
09:10 masak yeah, what moritz_++ said.
09:10 masak understanding the difference between regex/token/rule is also important. but that only comes with using them in practice for a while.
09:11 wallberg thanks guys. what editor is everyone writing their P6 code in these days? vim? Padre?
09:12 * masak codes in vim
09:12 * moritz_ uses vim too
09:12 masak my general rule of thumb seems to be 'code in vim, write prose in Emacs' :)
09:13 masak all other editors have left me wildly underwhelmed so far.
09:13 masak come back when you have something with macros and scriptability, like vim and Emacs.
09:13 moritz_ masak: I'm curious, why the distinction?
09:14 moritz_ do you edit code more, while writing prose straight away?
09:14 masak moritz_: it's deeper than that. a lot of subtle things make the whole user experience of the two programs more suitable for that kind of writing... at least for me.
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09:15 masak moritz_: Emacs seems to "think" in paragraphs. vim has a lot of navigational and manipulative commands that are adjusted for code (or other hierarchical) primitives.
09:16 wallberg well, I need something that tells me "nooooo!! you're doing it wroooong!!" as I type, so I'll start with Padre and see how it goes. or does vim have live syntax checking?
09:17 Achilles14 I suggest emacs.
09:17 masak I emphatically don't need an editor to tell me I'm doing things wrong.
09:18 * Tene vim
09:18 moritz_ wallberg: it highlits in real time, that's all
09:19 wallberg masak: yeah, it would be nice with an editor that says "Good job!" every once in a while.
09:20 Tene masak: {} in vim navigate by paragraphs.  also 'p' in object-select.  I haven't done much with emacs; what does emacs do differently there?
09:20 Tene Also () and s for sentences.
09:20 masak wallberg: reminds me of INTERCAL's insistence of prefixing an appropriate fraction of statements with "PLEASE " :)
09:21 masak Tene: nod. I know that. seems in describing the quality I'm after, I botched it altogether.
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09:21 masak Tene: vim is not bad for editing prose text either, it's just that I find Emacs to be more suited for it. YMMV.
09:22 Tene masak: I was curious about your milage, not trying to assert anything about mine.
09:22 masak Tene: and yes, I use {} a lot already. I've actually turned off the arrow navigation keys in order to become more mindful of navigation.
09:22 Juerd vim is hard for prose because it doesn't support long lines
09:22 Juerd I do use it, but with line wrapping and manual re-wrapping
09:22 Juerd re-flowing even
09:22 Tene I haven't used emacs much.
09:22 Juerd Well, not really manual. I use gq.
09:23 Tene I have vertical arrows mapped to gk and gj
09:23 Tene I rarely use them.
09:24 Juerd Ahhh. Thanks
09:25 Tene Oh, I guess if you didn't know those, long lines might be a bit more awkward for you. :)
09:27 masak Emacs is wonderful when it comes to re-flowing emails with those '>'s in them.
09:27 moritz_ #perl6 - learn something new about the editor you've been using for $n years
09:27 Tene Every six months or so, I go read through the vim docs and look for something new to try using.
09:28 szbalint sometimes I think there is too much to learn about vim
09:28 masak oh, and the vim docs are awesome.
09:28 Tene Marks were the biggest thing that stuck with me, since about 1.5 years ago.
09:28 szbalint most of the features don't fit in my head.
09:28 tadzik hello sixers
09:28 szbalint I am happy with those that do, though :)
09:28 masak tadzik: \o
09:29 Tene I also try to do that with bash, but less-frequently.  alt+. is a nice hotkey that is severely underused.  ^R even more so.
09:29 mathw o/
09:29 Tene It pains me seeing people re-type things that they could call up with like three keystrokes.
09:29 moritz_ alt+. is last argument from last line, right?
09:29 mathw I've got a friend who can never remember ^R
09:29 Tene moritz_: repeat it to recall last arguments from previous commands in the history.
09:29 moritz_ right
09:29 mathw but since I found out about it I've used it constantly
09:29 moritz_ I use Esc. which I guess is the same
09:30 Tene Yeah, same.
09:30 mathw Didn't know about alt+.
09:30 * mathw tries it
09:30 mathw AWESOME!
09:30 mathw Tene++
09:30 Tene You can also use ctrl+alt+y for arbitrary arguments from the previous command
09:31 Tene Esc,3,ctrl+alt+y = recall the fourth word from the previous command
09:31 wallberg hmm, I seem to have the ability to turn the whole channel off-topic. This isn't the first time :-)
09:31 Tene Or even esc,-,2 for second from the end
09:32 Tene I nearly never use it, but sometimes it's useful if there's a long url or something in there.
09:32 moritz_ wallberg: that's fine, as long as no ongoing p6 discussion is disturbed by it
09:32 mathw And we're learning things
09:32 Tene It's nice to look through: bind -p | grep -Ev 'not bound|self-insert'
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09:33 Tene I've got a co-worker who is very set in his ways, and very resistant to changing anything, and it's painful to pair with him
09:34 Tene instead of ^Rfoo<enter>, he insists on using !foo:p<enter><mouse copy paste>
09:36 Tene Wow, I never knew about alt-y.  I've wanted that many times.
09:36 Tene "Rotate the kill-ring, and yank the new top. You can only do this if the prior command is yank or yank-pop."
09:36 Tene http://www.gnu.org/software/bash/manua​l/html_node/Commands-For-Killing.html
09:36 moritz_ good news: all those commands are from readline, and every readline app gets the same by default
09:37 Tene Yeah, readline++
09:37 Tene Also, if you're not familiar with it, rlwrap is great.
09:38 Tene I use it all over the place to use readline with programs that don't have it built in.
09:44 masak wow! Tene++ # rlwrap
09:46 moritz_ .u phi
09:46 phenny U+03D5 GREEK PHI SYMBOL (ϕ)
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09:51 masak getting heisenbug-like behaviour from the .trans thing.
09:52 masak I have this habit when doing .trans changes to rip the whole bit of code out into a script, do MONKEY_TYPING and augment the Str class with a new 'trans' method.
09:52 masak when I do it like that, it behaves as expected.
09:53 masak but when I run exactly the same test on the old .trans, it fails.
09:54 moritz_ that's... weird
09:55 mathw that's really quite disturbing
09:55 masak I can't really explain that right now.
09:55 mathw I hate that kind of bug
09:55 masak anyone want to try the script?
09:56 moritz_ did you remove .trans from Str before monkeytyping?
09:56 masak no.
09:56 masak actually, it's in Cool.
09:57 moritz_ ah, when it's in Cool you can monkey-type it into Str
09:57 masak here's the code: https://gist.github.com/716485
09:58 masak first, I monkey-patch Str. then, I run all the Rakudo-enabled spectests.
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09:58 masak note that I call the experimental variant .xtrans to keep things straight.
09:58 masak last two tests are the ones that differ. (and really shouldn't)
10:02 Tene masak: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but afaict, that script doesn't modify .trans in Str, only adds .xtrans
10:02 masak Tene: that's correct.
10:02 Tene So, I'm not surprised that they differ
10:02 masak Tene: but I just copied the code from Rakudo.
10:03 masak it's the same code.
10:03 Tene Ah.
10:06 masak actually, the obvious conclusion is that it's not the same code. that would fit better with the observation.
10:06 masak but why it wouldn't be, or how to test that it isn't, I don't know.
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10:07 masak there's only ever one definition of .trans in Rakudo, and that's in src/core/Cool-str.pm
10:07 mathw Heisenbug indeed
10:08 Tene Well, lemme update rakudo and check.
10:09 masak sure thing.
10:11 masak suspecting it might have something to do with the naming, I renamed 'xtrans' to 'trans' in my script. the 'trans' test succeeds then.
10:12 masak which means it's unrelated to naming.
10:12 masak which is disturbing, because then it's likely the core in itself that's causing this.
10:13 masak oh! could be something related to Cool/Str.
10:13 Tene That sounds to me like 'the version in core and the version augmented here differ'
10:13 masak right.
10:13 Tene You've recently had trouble with cached copies.  Is the compiled version different from the source?
10:13 Tene As you mentioned augmenting instead of recompiling.
10:14 masak rakudo: say "aaabbbccc".trans( / \s+ / => " " )
10:14 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«aaa      ␤»
10:14 masak I think that rules out any issues with my local Rakudo.
10:15 Tene ... is that right?  That looks broken to me.  Why does 'b' match \s+ ?
10:15 masak Tene: it's broken. that's the point.
10:15 masak http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=79778
10:15 masak that's what I'm trying to diagnose and fix.
10:16 masak that's what's going all heisen on me.
10:16 Tene Oh, right, this is the part that takes FOREVER now. :(
10:17 Tene So, the last two tests differ in behavior.  What is the difference?
10:17 masak one goes to the augmented method, the other goes to the method in Cool in the setting.
10:18 Tene I'm sorry.  What's the difference in behavior?
10:18 Tene I'm still waiting on rakudo to build.
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10:19 moritz_ masak: fwiw your example works fine for me on the REPL
10:19 masak Tene: ah. the setting one exposes the bug in the RT.
10:19 masak Tene: the augmented one doesn't.
10:19 masak moritz_: testing.
10:19 moritz_ and in a script too
10:19 tadzik it semi-works for me
10:19 tadzik > say "a  aab  bbccc".trans( / \s+ / => " " )
10:19 lambdabot <no location info>: parse error on input `+'
10:19 tadzik a aab bbccc
10:20 moritz_ This is Rakudo Perl 6, version 2010.11-4-g90cb844 built on parrot 2.10.1 RELEASE_2_10_1-421-g73ceeb1
10:20 Tene I thought we got rid of lambdabot?
10:20 moritz_ .u pi
10:20 phenny U+A03A YI SYLLABLE PI (ꀺ)
10:21 Tene π
10:21 masak moritz_: hm. works on the REPL here too.
10:21 Tene .u π
10:21 phenny U+03C0 GREEK SMALL LETTER PI (π)
10:22 masak I'm starting to suspect I simply have an old installed version of Rakudo.
10:22 masak moritz_++
10:22 Tene Rakudo compile supposed to take so much longer than it used to? :(
10:23 Tene masak: As I said. :)
10:23 moritz_ Tene: on a new parrot it's supposed to be a bit faster again
10:23 Tene moritz_: Ah, I'm just using whatever --gen-parrot fetches for me
10:23 moritz_ Tene: if you rakudo is new enough, you should get a "fast" parrot
10:24 masak how do I configure Rakudo to install into /usr/local/bin/perl6 ?
10:24 moritz_ perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-parrot-prefix=/usr/local
10:24 masak thanks.
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10:25 Tene masak: Both tests pass for me.
10:25 masak good. then I seem to have nothing to worry about.
10:25 Tene moritz_: I just pulled from git right before building, so latest rakudo master
10:25 masak Tene++ # thanks for the help
10:25 masak I'm glad it wasn't a real heisenbug.
10:26 moritz_ it seems rakudo rebuild on p6eval is busted
10:26 masak that would explain that part of the mystery.
10:26 Tene http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/​jun/14/distorted-body-image-back-hands# -- fascinating
10:40 masak now everything works over here.
10:40 Tene :D
10:40 masak so there really was no problem with .trans
10:41 masak I'm glad that's the case, because it felt like I fixed it last time :P
10:42 moritz_ $ perl evalbot/build.pl rakudo
10:42 moritz_ Can't handle revision 'RELEASE_2_10_1-477-gfa56f62
10:43 moritz_ ' at /home/p6eval/evalbot/build-​scripts//rebuild-rakudo.pl line 43.
10:43 masak I've recently switched to building with --gen-parrot, so I guess that's what confused me.
10:43 Tene Ah.
10:43 masak now November works (mostly) fine! \o/
10:44 Tene \o/
10:44 mathw wooo!
10:44 tadzik wow!
10:44 tadzik that means Web.pm too?
10:45 masak no, but I will turn my attention to Web.pm in the weekend.
10:46 masak got another reminder email from jhorwitz++ about Web.pm. I'll reply to that one today, and try to get the dreaded Week 20 done in the weekend.
10:46 * masak replies now
10:48 tadzik does Web.pm have HTTP headers parser?
10:48 masak no.
10:49 masak the Rack paradigm assumes that HTTP headers come in through the usual CGI manner, in environment variables.
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10:55 tadzik I feel like writing that
10:55 masak please go ahead.
10:55 mathw HTTP parsing is fun
10:56 Tene tadzik: it's the job of whatever is running the rack-style app to handle parsing the HTTP headers.
10:57 Tene In Web.pm case, usually HTTP::Daemon
11:00 tadzik It also seems simple
11:03 tadzik how funny it'd be to have a Plack-alike for Perl 6?
11:07 masak lunch &
11:13 Tene tadzik: Funny?  I think it's an admirable goal.
11:13 * sorear out
11:15 moritz_ didn't mberends++ start a clone?
11:20 tadzik server-simple-psgi, right
11:21 tadzik Tene: it doesn't differ much for me :)
11:21 tadzik https://github.com/mberends/http-server-sim​ple/blob/master/examples/05-psgi-small.pl6 there it is
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11:37 fcojocaru any way a newbie to perl can help as a dumb tester?
11:45 colomon absolutely!
11:45 masak oh, that would *rock*.
11:45 masak fcojocaru: even going through RT and just running stuff would help us.
11:46 fcojocaru any wiki/trac page to get me started?
11:46 fcojocaru what do you use to keep track of the tickets ?
11:46 tadzik fcojocaru: newbie to Perl, or newbie to Perl 6?
11:46 masak http://rt.perl.org/rt3/
11:46 fcojocaru to perl unfortunately
11:46 colomon fcojocaru: masak means the bug tracking software... checking filed bugs to see what they do now.
11:46 fcojocaru so I can only help on low level stuff
11:46 fcojocaru sorry
11:47 colomon but also, you could provide valuable feedback on the book they are working on.
11:47 masak we need all kinds of newbies. :)
11:47 fcojocaru one at a time guys
11:47 tadzik fcojocaru: go throught the Book (http://github.com/perl6/book) to learn your way around, it's quite probably you'll find some bugs/broken examples
11:47 tadzik that'll also help you understand stuff
11:47 fcojocaru good point
11:48 tadzik Eventually you'll become a warrior in our MMORPG :)
11:48 fcojocaru I send back issues to someone specific or use the http://rt.perl.org/rt3/?
11:48 fcojocaru I'll have to decline the offer with the warrior
11:49 fcojocaru I'm more of a bear thing you see
11:49 fcojocaru so maybe a creep
11:49 fcojocaru ?
11:49 tadzik I don't think so
11:49 tadzik loook at http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39445
11:49 masak please don't link to use.perl anymore :P
11:49 tadzik fcojocaru: OOC< how did you got interested in Perl6?
11:49 masak http://strangelyconsistent.o​rg/blog/perl-6-is-my-mmorpg
11:49 * tadzik updates his bookmarks
11:50 masak tadzik++
11:50 fcojocaru quite easy , I'm trying to learn perl5 now and wanted to see the future
11:51 fcojocaru since I'm out of ideas on what to write to get me around, testing a bunch of stuff for perl6 gives you lots of insight
11:51 masak the future is here already. it's just unevenly distributed. :)
11:51 fcojocaru so it seems a good thing to do , whenever I have the time
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11:53 fcojocaru Thank y ou all for the welcome , I'll start going trough the book and hopefully be of some use to you
11:53 fcojocaru Good Luck
11:53 masak likewise.
11:53 masak stop by often :)
11:54 fcojocaru will do
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12:30 tadzik phenny: "さようなら"?
12:30 phenny tadzik: "Bye" (ja to en, translate.google.com)
12:32 masak "sayōnara". guess it's the macron over the ō that makes it five characters, even though it's four syllables.
12:34 sbp phenny: "さ よ う な ら"?
12:34 phenny sbp: "That they are" (ja to en, translate.google.com)
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12:46 Tene .u さようなら
12:46 phenny Tene: U+3055 U+3088 U+3046 U+306A U+3089
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13:10 jnthn rakudo: (1, 1, * + * ... Inf)[0..10].join(', ').say
13:10 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89␤»
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13:17 masak rakudo: say (1, 1, * + * ... Inf)[0..10].fmt(:separator(", "))
13:17 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89␤»
13:17 masak \o/
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13:43 masak *groan* you may take the au++ out of #perl6, but you can never take the #perl6 out of au: http://twitter.com/audreyt/status/8152126110826497
13:43 masak punnery worthy of Worthington. :)
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14:12 takadonet i cannot wait for smash to do the benchmarking for the newest rakudo star version
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14:20 colomon takadonet: why?
14:21 takadonet colomon: should see a huge speed up on startup times
14:21 colomon ah
14:21 colomon need to get smash to check in the scripts for running the benchmarks (if he hasn't already) so we can all duplicate them locally.
14:22 takadonet ya
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14:23 colomon I don't see any trace of the harness in bench-scripts.  :(
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15:08 oha am i missing something, or the parenthesis are mandatory for a method call, but not on a sub call?
15:09 jnthn rakudo: 42.say
15:09 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«42␤»
15:09 jnthn oha: But if you want args, then yes
15:10 masak well,
15:10 jnthn oha: There's also this colon syntax. :)
15:10 oha with args, yes
15:10 masak right.
15:10 jnthn But, well...
15:10 oha jnthn: could you explain the colon syntax a bit?
15:10 jnthn I think the colon is better left in smileys.
15:10 colomon rakudo: $*OUT.say: 42
15:10 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«42␤»
15:10 oha ty
15:10 masak rakudo: say 42.fmt: "%05.2f"
15:10 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«42.00␤»
15:11 colomon but yeah, I'm not a big fan of the colon form in general
15:11 jnthn (Some people like the colon syntax a lot. It's not my preference...but I've nothing really against it either.)
15:11 colomon still, TMTOWTDI
15:11 masak kill it with fire. :)
15:11 jnthn masak: -> #parrot
15:11 jnthn ;)
15:13 masak jnthn: what's this ':notdef:' thing? http://twitter.com/uasi/status/8174326008258560
15:13 masak looks made up.
15:15 jnthn .:notdef maybe once woulda worked?
15:15 jnthn No, that still loosk wrong
15:15 jnthn Looks made up to be :)
15:15 jnthn There was a notdef method once.
15:15 MindosCheng pugs: <sleep read>.pick()
15:15 p6eval pugs:  ( no output )
15:15 MindosCheng pugs: say <sleep read>.pick()
15:15 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«read␤»
15:15 MindosCheng Okey...
15:16 jnthn Perl 6. Solving your important life decisions.
15:16 * masak replies to uasi
15:16 masak perl6: say <work rest>.pick
15:16 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«rest␤»
15:16 p6eval ..rakudo : OUTPUT«work␤»
15:16 masak oh noes :)
15:16 jnthn I like Pugs answer better here. :)
15:17 masak the two implementations kinda reveal their current active status, too.
15:17 jnthn :)
15:17 MindosCheng masak++
15:17 jnthn ooh, almost time for my next talk
15:18 mathw ooh
15:18 mathw what's it on
15:18 MindosCheng jnthn++
15:19 masak oh, there's a blog post too, containing a similar error: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/uasi/20101126/1290783645
15:20 masak oh wait!
15:20 masak :!defined: *does* work.
15:20 masak but it... looks so wrong... :)
15:20 masak the second colon is an invocant colon.
15:21 masak the first is a pair constructor, along the same principles as :e
15:21 * masak holds head in hands
15:22 masak how does one designate "invocant undefined" using the :U syntax?
15:23 colomon method blah(Frob:U $self:)
15:23 colomon (he guessed, no idea if this works)
15:23 masak right. thanks.
15:25 colomon rakudo: sub blah(Str:U $not-a-string) { say $not-a-string.defined }; blah(Str)
15:25 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Invalid typename in parameter declaration at line 22, near " $not-a-st"␤»
15:25 colomon rakudo: sub blah(Str $not-a-string) { say $not-a-string.defined }; blah(Str)
15:25 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
15:25 masak that's what I got locally too.
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15:35 masak rakudo: say 42.notdef
15:35 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
15:35 masak I'm not sure I can submit a rakudobug for this one. :)
15:36 masak for all I know, it's "extra functionality" that Rakudo provides, on top of the spec.
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16:10 moritz_ std: sub bla(Int:U $x) { $x }
16:10 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
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16:12 tadzik hello again
16:19 masak std: class C { method bla($?CLASS:U $self:) {} }
16:19 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤You may not use the ? twigil in a signature at /tmp/dF09kjh67D line 1:␤------> [32mclass C { method bla($[33m⏏[31m?CLASS:U $self:) {} }[0m␤    expecting twigil␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
16:19 masak didn't think so.
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16:23 masak wow, JS to "borrow" the Perl 6 way of writing if/while/etc expressions without parens? http://twitter.com/Smylers​2/status/8191234032013312
16:25 takadonet the original post does not even talk about Perl 6 !
16:25 takadonet http://brendaneich.com/2010/11/paren-free/
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16:49 kthakore masak: morning.
16:49 masak kthakore: hi there.
16:50 kthakore I am trying to remember our convo last night (6 hrs ago)
16:50 kthakore Where did you say most of perl6's memory gets into?
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16:51 kthakore in parrot or perl6 land or a combination of both?
16:51 flussence http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2010-11-26#i_3031080 ?
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16:53 kthakore flussence: yeah but that makes no sense to me
16:53 kthakore tooling?
16:53 kthakore what is that?
16:53 masak kthakore: I was thinking about the tools required to make Rakudo.
16:53 kthakore ah ... ok
16:53 masak nqp-rx being the most prominent example.
16:53 tadzik „Learning Perl 6 has been fun. I already want to stop writing Perl 5.”. Hah, I'm not the only one
16:54 kthakore masak: well where does perl6's memory useage mostly lie? Did anyone do a static analysis?
16:54 kthakore tadzik: yay from reddit :D
16:54 masak nqp-rx is the embodiment of lessons learned from PCT, which in turn profited from lessons learned from PGE and TGE.
16:54 masak kthakore: yes, I'm sure chromatic has done memory footprint analyses.
16:54 tadzik kthakore: which thing? :)
16:55 masak kthakore: I think "a combination of both" is most fair.
16:55 kthakore ok
16:55 masak kthakore: we know of memory inefficiencies in Parrot, and in Rakudo.
16:55 tadzik kthakore: yay for Game programming tutorial :)
16:55 kthakore is a problem of design or just how it is implemented at the time?
16:55 kthakore tadzik: :D have you seen SDL_Manual?
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16:56 kthakore tadzik: I tried last night to get SDL onto parrot and Perl6 ... but the memory and CPU usage of perl6 is not ready for it yet
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16:58 masak kthakore: maybe you could try to conspire with either jnthn/nqpnet or sorear/niecza, either of which probably has a smaller memory footprint.
16:59 masak nomz &
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17:12 tadzik kthakore: yes, I love it! I wouldn't mind it PDF'd though
17:13 * moritz_ wonders if oha's p6l mail should have gone to p6u
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17:14 * tadzik wonders whether he should subscribe p6l
17:14 oha moritz_: if i've written in the wrong place, i'm sorry
17:15 oha tadzik: and sorry if my mail is annoying :(
17:16 moritz_ oha: no problem, I was just surprised because usually p6l posts contain some new suggestions for the language
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17:16 moritz_ oha: I haven't quite understood what you want do with the signature
17:16 tadzik oha: I don't know, haven't read that yet
17:17 moritz_ did you try to get the names of the parameters?
17:17 oha moritz_: it is what i did
17:17 moritz_ ah
17:17 moritz_ "TODO: i would like to find a way to use the Signature for table names"
17:18 moritz_ that's the part I didn't understand
17:18 oha but if you consider a "select tab1.field1, tab2.field2"
17:18 moritz_ how would a calling example look like?
17:18 moritz_ ah
17:18 oha then the signature couldn't be $x.y
17:18 moritz_ fully qualified table names
17:18 oha yep
17:18 oha (or aliases, whatever)
17:18 * moritz_ finally understands
17:19 * moritz_ has no idea how to do that
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17:19 oha moritz_: i was thinking on nested signatures
17:19 oha but i still can't find a way to name a nested sig
17:20 moritz_ of course you could define some substitution rules
17:20 moritz_ $me-foo becomes me.foo
17:20 tadzik oha: what is your realname, so I can find your post?
17:20 moritz_ also ' is allowed in identifiers
17:20 oha moritz_: yup. anyway i have to confess that i've started thinking how to do something like chagning the perl6 grammar
17:20 moritz_ tadzik: sender is Oha <oha@oha.it>
17:21 oha tarzik: should be Oha
17:21 oha moritz_: but then i've realized it could be done without, and i enjoyed it. feeling happy i tout it was good to share this :)
17:21 oha moritz_: nice, the ' is the best candidate for
17:22 tadzik doesn't look bad to me
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17:23 oha well, time to go home for me. ty for your suggestion moritz_. bye all
17:24 moritz_ cia oha
17:24 moritz_ oha: fwiw you might like to use placeholders instead of pointies
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17:32 moritz_ oatclip monads: http://chrisdone.com/posts/201​0-11-25-lisk-lisp-haskell.html
17:35 moritz_ or rather, fingernails in oatmeal monads
17:35 moritz_ whatever
17:35 * moritz_ is out of brainz
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18:26 tadzik std: my @a; @a[-1]
18:26 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unsupported use of [-1] subscript to access from end of array; in Perl 6 please use [*-1] at /tmp/OKV6umIuEc line 1:␤------> [32mmy @a; @a[-1][33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
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18:27 tadzik rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; @a[-1];
18:27 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
18:27 tadzik rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; @a[-1]; say $!
18:27 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Any()␤»
18:28 tadzik rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; try { @a[-1]; } say $!
18:28 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "try { @a[-"␤»
18:28 mkramer rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; say @a[-1];
18:28 tadzik oh come on
18:28 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
18:28 tadzik ===SORRY!===
18:28 tadzik Cannot use negative index -1 on Array
18:28 tadzik so http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=63986 can be closed, no?
18:28 jnthn *-1
18:28 mkramer my @a = 1, 2, 3; say @a[*-1];
18:28 mkramer blah
18:28 tadzik yeah, I meant the bug. It should fail, that's ok
18:29 mkramer just make this damn bot print its last expression =P
18:29 tadzik I can fix the error message so it will behave like STD and we can mark that bug fixed
18:29 jnthn (from earlier) "how does one designate "invocant undefined" using the :U syntax"?
18:30 jnthn method (Foo:U $self:) { ... } # works
18:30 jnthn But also should
18:30 jnthn method (::?CLASS:U $self:) { ... }
18:32 tadzik I think this one also works now: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=66252
18:33 tadzik this too: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=67374
18:36 oha am i wrong or @a[-1] should not be the same error of $x=-1; @a[$x]; ?
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18:37 tadzik hmm, it can't be in-grammar then
18:37 * tadzik feels like fixing
18:38 oha tadzik: right now, rakudo exit with the same error to me
18:38 tadzik fail "Cannot use negative index $pos on {self.WHO}" if $pos < 0;
18:38 tadzik in Any-List.pm. Looks good to me, I think the bug can be closed
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18:40 tadzik http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=69218 -- closable to, methinks
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18:45 tadzik http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=72968 and this
18:45 ggoebel left #perl6
18:45 tadzik ...is there a RT guy around?
18:45 tadzik s/a/an/
18:47 tadzik or this: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=73148
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18:52 tadzik std: say
18:53 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Unsupported use of bare 'say'; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument at /tmp/xyp8lC4b3r line 1:␤------> [32msay[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤ok 00:01 117m␤»
18:53 flussence ooh, p5.13.7 just made a huge amount of my $dayjob code redundant.
18:53 moritz_ flussence: with which feature?
18:54 flussence auto-dereferencing array/hashrefs in builtins
18:54 moritz_ ah
18:56 tadzik http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=74476 -- closable
18:56 moritz_ do we have tests enabled for that?
18:59 moritz_ ah yes, colomon++ unfudged some
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19:03 tadzik http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=76238 -- closable
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19:05 patrickas moritz_ ping
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19:06 moritz_ patrickas: pong
19:06 patrickas hello boss !
19:06 patrickas did you work on getting rakudo to build after the parrot git migration?
19:07 tadzik hey, it works
19:07 tadzik moritz_: do you have RT access?
19:09 moritz_ patrickas: yes
19:09 moritz_ tadzik: yes
19:09 moritz_ tadzik: don't you?
19:12 patrickas moritz_: there are a few things not working for me (on win32) and I am unable to build rakudo anymore which might be unrelated
19:12 moritz_ patrickas: I don't have a win32 dev machine, so any fixes are very welcome
19:13 tadzik moritz_: nah
19:13 tadzik I wanted to do some bugfixing today, but everything I check works alredy
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19:13 patrickas The thing is I am building from scratch and I want to make sure that it is not my setup that is messed up ... did anyone else coplain on win32 ?
19:13 moritz_ tadzik: step 1: create an RT account
19:13 patrickas or rather ... did anyone build successfully on win32 ?
19:13 moritz_ tadzik: step 2: tell pmichaud about your account name, and request edit privs for the perl6 queue
19:14 moritz_ patrickas: jnthn did some testing, fixed a failure, did it RONG, I fixed it differently... I don't know what the final outcome was
19:15 patrickas ok then I'll take it up with him then..t hanks!
19:16 tadzik phenny: tell pmichaud may I get the access to perl 6 RT? I found like 10 bugs today which are alredy working and can be closed
19:16 phenny tadzik: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
19:16 M_o_C left #perl6
19:18 moritz_ tadzik: go to http://rt.perl.org/rt3/ and create an account (follow the "Get a Bitcard account" link), and then also phennytell pmichaud your nick
19:19 lamstyle joined #perl6
19:24 tadzik moritz_: done that
19:27 bpa I've been trying rakudo on and off, really liking what I see.  I'm wondering if I've missed a dropped feature, or if I just imagined it.  Did this work before?  for 1 .. 3 b $x ...
19:27 Juerd Er...
19:27 bpa that is supposed to be the -> unicode character
19:27 Juerd Unless you're suggesting blinking text as syntax feature, you may want to send that line again.
19:28 bpa I don't think my irc client supports it
19:28 bpa sorry about that
19:28 Juerd :)
19:28 flussence “→”?
19:28 bpa In code it looks like a nice right arrow
19:29 Juerd I think it'd be madness to support arrows like that, since there are quite a few in Unicode.
19:29 bpa so I was just imagining it then?
19:29 Juerd I guess so, especially as the language operators fit in latin1
19:29 gfldex bpa: or you might have visions. with perl6 you cant relly tell the difference :)
19:30 bpa I may have used it with pugs, can't really remember
19:30 bpa The hyper operator works though, and that isn't ascii
19:30 gfldex perl6 requires unicode
19:30 Juerd Still unlikely, bpa
19:30 gfldex if you want to you could define operaters like that
19:31 Juerd You can
19:31 flussence »« aren't ascii, but they are in iso8859-1
19:33 bpa I think I'll stick with the core operators and not confuse people who may come across my code
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19:34 bpa I do think its amazing that I could extend the grammar do to it if I really wanted though
19:34 bpa (without editing the source that is)
19:35 dalek rakudo: 82f3de0 | patrickas++ | build/gen_parrot.pl:
19:35 dalek rakudo: extra check needed for gen_parrot on win32
19:35 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/82f3de068b
19:39 oha rakudo: "a'b" ~~ /((\w+)\')?(\w+)/; say $/[0][0], "|", $/[0][0][0];
19:39 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«a'|a␤»
19:40 oha i expected to get 'a' with the $/[0][0]; why must I use $/[0][0][0]?
19:40 oha is the ? which make an array here?
19:40 moritz_ yes
19:41 moritz_ every quantifier turns that capture into an array
19:41 oha i had to realize it alone
19:44 sjohnson hi pals
19:44 lamstyle left #perl6
19:47 moritz_ oha: if you use too many nested captures, you should think about using (named) subrules
19:51 TimToady or [] where you don't care to capture
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19:59 oha moritz_: i've used $<foo>=(...)
19:59 mkramer left #perl6
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20:00 oha can i do something similar to: -> %x<foo> { ... }
20:02 TimToady such binding has been conjectured, though you can't have a subscript as a formal parameter name
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20:25 masak ahoy!
20:26 jnthn ahoj, masak :)
20:26 tadzik ahoj :)
20:27 jnthn rakudo: sub foo($ where (my %x<h> = $_)) { say %x<h> }; foo(42); # curious...
20:27 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at line 22, near "$ where (m"␤»
20:27 jnthn rakudo: sub foo($x where (my %x<h> = $_)) { say %x<h> }; foo(42); # curious...
20:27 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
20:27 jnthn oh...
20:27 jnthn duh :)
20:28 jnthn rakudo: sub foo($ where (my %x, %x<h> = $_)) { say %x<h> }; foo(42);
20:28 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter ''␤  in 'foo' at line 22:/tmp/asBHelsmTw␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/asBHelsmTw␤»
20:28 jnthn Hmm. :)
20:28 silug warren: i'm surprised there aren't any commercial entities taking enough of an interest in spamassassin to put some manpower behind it.
20:28 jnthn rakudo: sub foo($x where (my %x, %x<h> = $x)) { say %x<h> }; foo(42);
20:28 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter '$x'␤  in 'foo' at line 22:/tmp/YkiX0jvns_␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/YkiX0jvns_␤»
20:28 silug urk
20:28 * jnthn gets curious what that ends up failing...
20:29 jnthn It's still pretty nasty looking even if it worked though.
20:30 masak I'm just going to blog a little, and then I'll go to bed.
20:30 masak don't want to ruin my good sleep streak :)
20:32 masak tadzik++ # digging around in RT
20:32 tadzik masak: I wanted to fix some bugs, but all of them were alredy fixed :(
20:33 masak tadzik: how terrible! :)
20:33 masak jnthn: why was this again? http://twitter.com/uasi/status/8254037887549440
20:34 masak jnthn: uasi thinks it's "once for (dispatch) search, once for calling". is that the truth?
20:35 masak also, uasi++ made a brainfuck interpreter in Perl 6: https://gist.github.com/717036
20:36 tadzik oh, that could be a Parrot language
20:36 dukeleto there is already a br interpreter on Parrot
20:36 dukeleto s/br/bf/
20:37 jnthn I think there's (white)space for a br interpreter ;-)
20:37 jnthn masak: Yes
20:37 timbunce joined #perl6
20:37 jnthn masak: It's something that I think can get optimized away but...
20:37 masak ...but not easily.
20:37 jnthn Grr. I forget the subtlety
20:38 jnthn We *do* avoid re-doing the nominal type checks.
20:38 masak ah.
20:38 TimToady masak: the Japanese consider the ō to be two syllables (or mora, to be preciser)
20:38 jnthn I suspect there's a comment in the binder somewhere hinting at where to stick a future optimization in this area.
20:38 masak TimToady: ah, thanks. that makes sense.
20:39 masak uasi++ is very inquisitive. I like replying to his tweets.
20:39 TimToady in fact, they would count it that way in haiku as well
20:39 masak TimToady: I was wondering about that.
20:39 TimToady english can stuff a lot more into a haiku than japanese can...
20:39 tadzik Hmm, brainfuck almost works
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21:11 lue ohayo wurld o/
21:11 masak hellue!
21:11 kfo joined #perl6
21:12 sjohnson hi
21:14 masak sjohnson: \o
21:14 sjohnson :)
21:14 kfo_ left #perl6
21:14 lue it's strange. While writing a few tests last night, I started writing tests for things that will fail, and I had the urge to make them pass. But I had to go to bed [curse you rotation of the Earth due to forces I cannot quite name at this moment!!]
21:15 masak doesn't sound strange at all.
21:15 masak you have to learn to pace yourself.
21:15 masak for example, start writing tests earlier in the day :)
21:16 masak then you'll have time to implement them.
21:16 lue it's as if... TDD works, somehow... :)
21:17 masak so it's rumoured.
21:18 oha does "a $x b" get compiled as "a "~$x~" b"?
21:18 ch3ck hej masak \o
21:18 oha or the expansion does not pass thru ~?
21:18 masak oha: more like "a " ~ ~$x ~ " b"
21:19 masak ch3ck: godkväll.
21:19 timbunce left #perl6
21:19 * moritz_ knows enough bokmål to understand that :-)
21:20 moritz_ though I'd say "god kveld" :-)
21:20 rurban left #perl6
21:20 ch3ck this was swedish, not norwegian
21:20 masak right. the language on which norwegian was based. :P
21:21 * masak wonders whether frettled or arnsholt will slap him first :)
21:21 moritz_ uhm, I thought it was based on Danish
21:22 masak a truly scary thought :)
21:22 masak hm. seems my hobby today is as a language chauvinist.
21:22 frettled hugme: hug masak
21:22 * hugme hugs masak
21:23 masak awww :)
21:23 masak I'll quote Teratogen. "I'm a failed troll" :)
21:24 masak blog post! http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/novem​ber-26-2010-all-in-the-name-of-saucepans
21:24 dalek roast: 52c1e70 | moritz++ | S02-builtin_data_types/array.t:
21:24 dalek roast: [array.t] unfudge some tests that rakudo now passes
21:24 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/52c1e701ce
21:24 masak tadzik: did all those tickets that you yelled "closable" about ever get closed?
21:24 masak tadzik: would you like an admin bit for RT?
21:25 moritz_ masak: I closed the first that tadzik++ yelled about, and claimed the second (because I know of no tests so far)
21:25 moritz_ then I got distracted
21:25 masak oh, good-ish.
21:25 masak moritz_+ # :)
21:27 lue today's xkcd is hilarious.
21:27 moritz_ masak: :-)
21:28 frettled Zack Weiner's guest comic is nice, yes.
21:28 frettled And SMBC is often entertaining.
21:29 frettled masak++ - positively good progress (blog)
21:29 masak er.
21:29 * masak is happy to have a clown nose:    :©)
21:30 masak frettled: yes. and the weekend will be even positiver.
21:31 oha what am i doing wrong here? multi sub infix:<~>(B $l, Any $r --> B) { ...
21:31 lue .oO(I knew the colon was copyrighted! I knew it!)
21:31 moritz_ oha: maybe rakudo doesn't knwo about --> yet?
21:31 masak it does.
21:31 tylercurtis left #perl6
21:32 masak rakudo: class B {}; multi sub infix:<~>(B $l, Any $r --> B) { ... }; say "alive"
21:32 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«alive␤»
21:32 masak oha: from what I can see, you're doing nothing wrong.
21:32 masak oha: please be more specific, or realize that you're doing it right. :)
21:32 oha masak: but when i my $x = B.new; $x ~ 'foo'; the sub isn't called
21:32 masak oha: I see.
21:32 masak oha: can you demonstrate that with p6eval?
21:33 oha i'm using rakudo here
21:33 masak so is p6eval.
21:33 oha oh ok
21:33 masak (see above)
21:34 oha i've understood what i was missdoing
21:34 oha the sub was inside class B {
21:34 oha and probably interpreted as a method of B
21:34 masak no.
21:34 masak but it makes it lexical inside B.
21:35 oha ohoh! got it
21:35 masak oha: subs and methods are separate things, at least as far as declarations are concerned.
21:35 oha therefore i must put it outside the class, and if i'm going to include it as a pm i must declare it 'is export' too?
21:37 masak well, there's still a difference between the file and the scope of the module.
21:37 masak but yes, most of the time.
21:39 * masak sleeps
21:40 masak left #perl6
21:40 Guest13659 left #perl6
21:43 Teratogen I'm a failed troll!?
21:44 tylercurtis joined #perl6
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22:24 dukeleto Teratogen: that is the worst kind of troll.
22:24 Teratogen oh dear =(
22:25 lue rakudo: say ":a<b>" ~~ Hash # most likely fails, just curious
22:25 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«0␤»
22:31 jnthn /win 11
22:31 jnthn ...fail!
22:31 sorear good * #perl6
22:31 `26 left #perl6
22:32 Tene /fail 11
22:32 jnthn :P
22:32 diakopter sorear: good
22:38 lue afk
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23:00 tadzik bah, masak's gone
23:00 sorear @part #perl6
23:00 lambdabot left #perl6
23:00 sorear aloha: seen kthakore
23:00 aloha sorear: kthakore was last seen in #perl6 6 hours 3 mins ago saying "tadzik: I tried last night to get SDL onto parrot and Perl6 ... but the memory and CPU usage of perl6 is not ready for it yet".
23:01 kthakore sorear: hi
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23:06 starcoder joined #perl6
23:07 eternaleye phenny: tell masak Hey! I read HP & the methods of rationality too! I prticularly like how Draco was absolutely floored by muggles being the first humans on the moon.
23:07 phenny eternaleye: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
23:12 wallberg left #perl6
23:13 kthakore sorear: ?? ok ...
23:14 kthakore I have to head out to a class then
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