IRC log for #perl6, 2010-11-26

Time	Nick	Message
00:00		orafu joined #perl6
00:00	ingy	star: $_ = 'hello'; .say()
00:00	p6eval	star 2010.09: ( no output )
00:01	ingy	star: 'hi'.say
00:01	p6eval	star 2010.09: ( no output )
00:04	ingy	star: say 'hi'
00:04	p6eval	star 2010.09: ( no output )
00:04	sjohnson	rakudo: say 'hi'
00:04	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«hi␤»
00:04	sjohnson	.oO(???)
00:05	ingy	rakudo: $_ = 'hi'; .say
00:05	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«hi␤»
00:05	ingy	rakudo: $_ = 'hi'; .= ' world';.say
00:05	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near ".= ' world"␤»
00:05	ingy	rakudo: $_ = 'hi'; $_ .= ' world';.say
00:06	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Quoted method name requires parenthesized arguments at line 22, near ";.say"␤»
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00:12	ingy	sorear: what debian mono package should I install for niecza?
00:13	ingy	niecza: say 'sorear'
00:13	p6eval	niecza 914f55d: OUTPUT«sorear␤»
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00:25	dalek	tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ \| http://www.perlfoundation.org/[…]l_6_lookup_tablet
00:25	diakopter	ingy: I didn't know there was one..
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00:30	dalek	tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ \| http://www.perlfoundation.org/[…]l_6_lookup_tablet
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00:36	dalek	tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ \| http://www.perlfoundation.org/[…]rl_6_index_tablet
00:56	sorear	ingy: dunno, I installed from source. I know you need libmono2.0-cil
00:56	sorear	moritz would have the full list
00:58	sorear	you'll also definitely need mono-gmcs and mono-xbuild
00:59	sorear	ah! mono-complete
00:59	sorear	"Install this package if you want to run software ... not ... from a Debian package"
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01:43	sorear	TimToady: What do <( and )> do in subrules?
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01:50	ingy	sorear: where is the name Niecza from?
01:50	sorear	masak
01:50	ingy	any idea what it means
01:51	sorear	it's a badly misremembered line from a joke dub of a music video on youtime
01:51	sorear	ube
01:51	ingy	cool
01:53	ingy	sorear: I just showed Damian the irc log
01:54	ingy	he thought I said Nietzsche earlier
01:54	ingy	and he thinks it should actually be called Nietzsche
01:55	colomon	"That which does not crash you makes you stronger."
01:55	ingy	that which requires mono-complete makes you stronger
01:56	colomon	ingy: ask Damian how his p6 modules are coming. :)
01:58	sorear	ingy: which irc log?
02:01	sorear	also, the name Nietzsche is ... taken.
02:05	* sorear	can't imagine Niecza is very TheDamian-compatible
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02:08	TimToady	sorear: all they do is change .from and .to, as usual
02:12	sorear	TimToady: consider my regex foo { a )> b }; "abc" ~~ /<&foo>c/; "ab" ~~ /<&foo>b/
02:12	sorear	which one matches?
02:19		TypeNameHere joined #perl6
02:20	TimToady	the second one does
02:21		whiteknight joined #perl6
02:21	TimToady	what follows )> is like a lookahead
02:25	ingy	sorear: /tmp/tmp52a1123b.tmp: 1: viv: not found
02:25	ingy	what's viv?
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04:35	sorear	ingy: still here?
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04:47	* sorear	waits for ingy to return.
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06:17	kthakore	Hello, is a perl6ier way of injecting scalar references into a callback's scope? In perl5 I do $foo->set_callback( set{ _local_callback( @_, $local_in_scope_scalar ) } ) a lot.
06:17	kthakore	or does that just mean a bad design .... prolly the later ...
06:18	kthakore	oops also s/set/sub/g
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06:22	TimToady	my $lexical; $foo.set_callback( -> $param { whatever($param,$foo) } );
06:22	TimToady	er
06:23	TimToady	my $lexical; $foo.set_callback( -> $param { whatever($param,$lexical) } );
06:23	TimToady	the lexical comes from the lexical scope, the parameter is passed by the caller of the callback
06:24	kthakore	wow this is magic!
06:24	TimToady	just like in Perl 5, except you get to name your parameters
06:24	kthakore	I really need to get SDL working with Parrot
06:25	TimToady	seems to me it was long ago, but likely has suffered bitrot
06:25	kthakore	TimToady: parrotSDL ? I forked it a few months ago, but parrot was a moving target
06:25	kthakore	it was working for a while though
06:26	kthakore	so let me get this straight ... if I do -> $param { whatever ($param, $lexical ) }
06:27	kthakore	in whatever( ) I can just us $param and $lexical?
06:27	kthakore	use*
06:27	kthakore	no need to do 'my ($param, $lexical) = @_' ?
06:27	TimToady	yes, P6 has real parameters now
06:28	kthakore	.... -.-
06:28	kthakore	ok I really need to get parrotSDL caught up now
06:28	TimToady	well, $lexical isn't a parameter, but yes
06:28	kthakore	thanks TimToady
06:28	TimToady	you could write it sub ($param) {...} if you want it to look more p5ish
06:29	kthakore	ok I am confused ...
06:29	kthakore	sub ($param) ?
06:29	kthakore	is that like sub { my $param = shift ...
06:29	TimToady	yes
06:29	kthakore	ah ok
06:29	TimToady	you can have multiple parameters
06:29	kthakore	sorry if I didn't get that right away ... I am pulling an all nighter
06:30	kthakore	What I am really interested in is the perl 6 grammar stuff ... but I am not sure if it is the same as what I am thinking.
06:31	kthakore	A while ago I was making a context free grammar language in ANTLR for MAgic the Gathering card rules.
06:31	TimToady	p6 grammars are something like that
06:32	kthakore	Magic The Gathering Card rules are essentially ( {Target} {Action} {modifier} ... so on)
06:32	kthakore	TimToady: are as powerful as context free or similar to regular expressions?
06:33	kthakore	cause using regex for that stuff was really really painful
06:33	TimToady	they are as powerful as you want them to be
06:34	kthakore	hehe ... I should have seen that coming
06:34	TimToady	they can be context sensitive if you like
06:34	kthakore	context sensitive as in @_ or $ context?
06:34	TimToady	that depends on your language definition
06:34	kthakore	I meant context free grammars as in defining a way to 'parse' text rules
06:34	kthakore	I am not really good at this stuff bascially
06:34	kthakore	I want to be able to do this
06:35	kthakore	' [Green Cards] {destroy} {turn} ' = Destroy all green cards this turn
06:35	kthakore	where ' [Green Cards] {destroy} {turn} ' is the card rule
06:36	kthakore	so this would be converted into a subroutine ...
06:36	kthakore	nah ... that would be crazy ...
06:36	kthakore	or possible?
06:36	TimToady	anything is possible, and some things are easy
06:36	sorear	doing NLP with Perl 6 is on the crazy side
06:36	sorear	but good crazy
06:36	kthakore	but is it NLP?
06:36	kthakore	because I use notations to tell what is the target
06:36	TimToady	sounds pretty restricted to me
06:36	sorear	oh
06:36	sorear	I misunderstood
06:37	sorear	thought you'd be parsing the card text
06:37	kthakore	no no
06:37	kthakore	that converted manually
06:37	kthakore	hold on let me see if I have the XML we converted
06:39	kthakore	yay! Found it!
06:39	kthakore	hold on getting it some place public
06:39	* kthakore	dusts off the xml
06:39	sorear	if you have xml why not use it?
06:41	kthakore	I will explain
06:41	kthakore	again you are too fast ;)
06:42	kthakore	sorear: TimToady http://sdlperl.ath.cx/mtg/
06:42	kthakore	C[Self: \| Damage:Player,Waiting](Player:Waiting \| Discard:1): is pretty much the 'rule' of the card
06:43	kthakore	So it does 'Damage the waiting player and make the player discard a card'
06:43	kthakore	C means it is only works in a certain phase
06:44	kthakore	... I forgot this ... wow this was sooo long ago
06:44	kthakore	sorear: I was trying to make a grammar for this in Antlr so I could make it applicable on the game state some how
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06:45	kthakore	my plan was to 'parse' this XML into subroutines ...
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06:45	masak	morning, #perl6!
06:45	* kthakore	stays quite now while people look at his stupid insane thing ....
06:45	kthakore	hi masak
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06:53	sorear	hi masak
06:57	kthakore	so ... is that language possible to parse in perl6 grammars?
06:57	kthakore	or do I need to define my language better?
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07:09	kthakore	hmm I guess you guys are busy I am gonna head to sleep
07:10	masak	kthakore: not busy, just low activity right now.
07:10	masak	kthakore: I haven't finished backlogging. when I do, I'll have a look.
07:11	sorear	kthakore: perl 6 grammars contain a Turing complete language, so they can parse any recursively enumerable language
07:11	sorear	your question is not very meaningful
07:14	kthakore	sorear: you are right I guess... I don't know how to ask a meaningful question here. I guess my real question is 'Given a card game, with rules defined by each card in play. How to generate a subroutine based on it's rule? '
07:14	kthakore	I thought grammars was the way to go ... but maybe not
07:15	sorear	grammars are the way to go for inputting data from adhoc text files
07:15	sorear	if you have XML, you should use an XML parser. Not a grammar.
07:18	kthakore	sorear: I don't think you understant ...
07:18	kthakore	I am not trying to parse XML
07:18	kthakore	http://sdlperl.ath.cx/mtg/EasyMTGCardsSyntax.xml
07:19	kthakore	see <Card> .... <Rule> C[Self: \| Damage:Player,Waiting](Player:Waiting \| Discard:1): </Rule> ....
07:19	sorear	ick
07:19	kthakore	the text I am trying to parse is ' C[Self: \| Damage:Player,Waiting](Player:Waiting \| Discard:1): '
07:19	sorear	you combine all the disadvantages of ad-hoc text with all the disadvantages of XML
07:19	kthakore	sigh ...
07:20	kthakore	this is not about XML sorear
07:20	kthakore	ignore the xml I am sorry I picked it too
07:20	masak	sjohnson: what's your criterion for a decent hex editor? would it be very hard to write one?
07:20	kthakore	sorear: I want to parse something like ' C[Self: \| Damage:Player,Waiting](Player:Waiting \| Discard:1): '
07:21	kthakore	into a function that I can call like $card->apply_effect()
07:21	sorear	You'll confuse yourself less if you use an AST.
07:22	* masak	stands back and lets sorear++ handle this
07:22	sorear	Make a few classes, have the grammar produce a tree of objects representing the card, then write a recursive function to apply the effect
07:23	kthakore	ah ok
07:24	kthakore	so each node on the tree will have something like $node->target, $node->effect, $node->modifier ?
07:24	kthakore	and then I will work from the bottom of the tree up?
07:25	sorear	I'd have to see your code to decide thayt
07:25	kthakore	ok
07:25	kthakore	I am in design phase as my first prototype is in C# and ANTLR
07:25	kthakore	... and I am looking for a better way to tokenize, parse, and make an AST
07:26	sorear	What does C[Self: \| Damage:Player,Waiting](Player:Waiting \| Discard:1): mean?
07:26	sorear	(it's been about 10 years since I last played M:tG)
07:26	kthakore	it means Damage the waiting player with same health as self ( the caller)
07:27	kthakore	and make tha same player discard a card
07:27	kthakore	sorear: the rules are very complex .... sigh
07:27	sorear	I know the rules, mostly
07:27	sorear	but I won't remember them without prompting
07:27	sorear	How does it say that?
07:27	kthakore	I had this for a third year design project (2 years ago) and it still haunts me
07:27	kthakore	sorear: in english?
07:27	sorear	Where does it say "same health"?
07:27	kthakore	Self: \| Damage:Player,Waiting
07:28	sorear	kthakore: English would be ideal, yes
07:28	kthakore	yeah let me get that sorry
07:28	sorear	What are the other options?
07:28	kthakore	oops I forget C[ ] means a condition
07:28	kthakore	http://www.coolstuffinc.com/ma[…]Gathering%20Cards
07:28	sorear	What does Self: mean by itself?
07:29	kthakore	the player I guess
07:29	kthakore	my language making skills are really bad :(
07:29	kthakore	how do I define a good language for this ....
07:29	sorear	What does Damage:Player,Waiting mean?
07:29	kthakore	whenever abyssal specter deals damage to a player, that player discards a card.
07:29	kthakore	C[ ] is the condition ....
07:30	sorear	What is 2bb?
07:30	sorear	I remember what 2w, 2r, etc are
07:30	kthakore	2 black mana
07:30	kthakore	err
07:30	kthakore	2 other cards
07:30	sorear	What's the difference between 2b and 2bb?
07:30	kthakore	blue and black
07:30	kthakore	bb = black
07:30	kthakore	yeah ... it is stupid ...
07:31	kthakore	oh wait no no
07:31	kthakore	that is 2 any colored card and 2 black cards
07:31	kthakore	2 bb
07:31	sorear	so bbbb or bbww or bbrg etc?
07:31	kthakore	bbbb 4 black cards
07:31	kthakore	bbwww 2 black 2 white
07:31	kthakore	yeah
07:32	kthakore	the number means any mana color
07:32	sorear	I remember now
07:32	kthakore	so my real problem I guess is to define a better language for this?
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07:32	sorear	What does 'Waiting' mean in your example language?
07:33	kthakore	Player who is waiting to play
07:33	kthakore	other player
07:33	kthakore	I guess
07:33	kthakore	there is a playing player and waiting player
07:35	kthakore	sorear: I know I have to redesign the language. However I was wondering if going into perl6 grammar was the correct direction for the implementation of such a game?
07:37	moritz_	perl 6 grammars are good for parsing that kind of stuff
07:37	moritz_	the rest of the implementation should not be done with grammers :-)
07:38	kthakore	moritz_: indeed ... that will be done with other stuff
07:39	kthakore	ok I really need to go to sleep
07:39	kthakore	thank you folks
07:40	sorear	kthakore: Every time I've played m:tg, there have been 5-10 players, and I've been allowed to attack any of them. That's not standard form?
07:40	sorear	ok
07:41	masak	someone seems disappointed: http://twitter.com/predominant[…]/7947907076460544
07:42	masak	but actually, Inf has some problems that we haven't yet resolved. the biggest one perhaps that it needs to act both as Int & Num & Str
07:42	kthakore	sorear: yeah but I have to start some where simple
07:42	kthakore	masak: bah don't listen to them
07:42	kthakore	haha
07:43	masak	kthakore: I don't let my happiness be contingent on things people say on Twitter, but I do pay attention to them.
07:43	masak	kthakore: Twitter has this wonderful way of letting you hear things you might otherwise turn a blind eye to.
07:44	masak	s/blind eye/deaf ear/ # mixing of metaphors
07:44	sorear	I think I'd be doing something along the lines of class AbyssalSpecter does Card[power => 2, toughness => 3, type => 'specter', cost => '2bb'] { method onDamage($taget) { $target.discard } }
07:44	sorear	then use eval to load the card file
07:45	kthakore	sorear: ... 0o
07:45	kthakore	I couldn't do that in C# .... that is why I didn't consider eval!
07:46	* kthakore	curses
07:46	kthakore	omg ... shit ... wow .... I mader this soooooooooooooo hard
07:46	* kthakore	facepalms
07:47	kthakore	sorear: thank you ... so much ... and now I really need to go
07:47	masak	some harsh criticism here: http://www.reddit.com/r/progra[…]as_been_released/
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07:50	kthakore	masak: oh yeah I saw that ... but you know what that means ... they are disappointed ... because they had expectations !!!
07:50	kthakore	masak: so it is good hahah
07:50	masak	also, the criticism that isn't raving lunacy is often spot on.
07:50	masak	Rakudo has a high memory footprint and runs slowly.
07:50	kthakore	indeed but parrot is slimming up
07:51	kthakore	and I think rakudo and parrot feedback loop is gonna get it right soon ... ish
07:51	masak	whatever. until it's fixed, the criticism is valid.
07:51	masak	those are big problems, and they don't have easy fixes.
07:51	masak	yes, people are working on them.
07:51	kthakore	yeah
07:51	kthakore	please keep doing it!
07:51	kthakore	I can't wait to get SDL onto perl6
07:51	masak	but I have quite a lot of sympathy for those who write Rakudo off due to it being slow or memory-hungry.
07:52	kthakore	then have lots of games!
07:52	kthakore	in perl6
07:52	sorear	niecza: sub fib($n) { $n == 0 ?? 1 !! $n == 1 ?? 1 !! fib($n-1) + fib($n-2) }; say fib(25)
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07:52	p6eval	niecza 914f55d: OUTPUT«121393␤»
07:53	masak	the main reason for Rakudo not being faster and slimmer already is that developing Perl 6 is non-trivial.
07:53	masak	the past five years have been spent implementing and re-implementing tooling on Parrot just to be able to handle the requirements that Perl 6 poses.
07:53	masak	it takes time and effort, and it brought us to this point. that's awesome, but we're not done yet.
07:54	masak	most any outsider will look in and see that we're not done yet, but fail to see the massive amount of effort that went into getting us to this point.
07:58	kthakore	masak: I am an outsider (if you will grant me that), and you know what I see? Smart People working Real Hard.
07:58	kthakore	So I cut a lot of slack there
07:58	kthakore	seriously if people can't understand that ... well w/e
07:59	kthakore	but there are some who do (i.e. me )
07:59	masak	indeed. kthakore++
08:00	masak	nevertheless, this is a case where deeds speak louder than words. if someone does something cool with Perl 6 (such as the URL dispatcher grammar last week), people will pay attention and get interested.
08:00	masak	and then the speed and memory footprint doesn't matter that much anymore.
08:00	kthakore	I mean I tried to help with string IO in parrot ... failed sooooo miserably
08:00	masak	perhaps not the simplest aspect to help with.
08:00	kthakore	masak: immutable string IO ?
08:00	sorear	I don't like this notion of Smart People and Non-Smart People
08:01	kthakore	sorear: it is probably not right, but it is how I see it
08:01	masak	sorear: neither do I, but I tend to let it slip when it's a compliment. :)
08:02	kthakore	sorear: can I put it like this? People who are more competent and capable and productive at compiler design then I am working really hard on a problem
08:02	kthakore	hence proble not easy so give them slack.
08:02	kthakore	problem*
08:02	sorear	pmichaud and jnthn leave me utterly awed too, but I don't let that stop me from contributing
08:03	kthakore	I never said I won't contribute
08:03	kthakore	I have tried when I have time
08:03	kthakore	I do it in parrot at times
08:03	kthakore	I was just explaining how my last attempt to add a String IO bug feature was a total bust
08:04	kthakore	sorear: still hasn't stopped me :D I am just biding my time till xmas break to get back into parrot
08:04	kthakore	s/bug//g
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08:06	sorear	in other news, making indexing efficient is... a lot harder than I expected
08:07		cosimo joined #perl6
08:07	kthakore	sorear++ masak++ thanks guys and bye for real now ...
08:07	sorear	more than half of STD's time is being spent in return if @*MEMOS[$¢.pos]<ws>:exists; now
08:07	masak	pmichaud and jnthn leave me utterly awed too, but I don't let that stop me from using my sledgehammer. :P
08:09	sorear	(in other other news, niecza-compiled STD is now outperforming viv on the "parse niecza lib/SAFE.setting" benchmark)
08:09	moritz_	\o/
08:10	masak	sorear: neat!
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08:12	masak	I think the most useless entries by far in day-of-year articles on Wikipedia are those that chronicle the forming of US college fraternities. who, besides perhaps those that used to belong to it, cares?
08:14	moritz_	... with greek TLAs, often without meaning
08:14	masak	exactly.
08:15	masak	Phi Sigma Sigma was founded today, 97 years ago. FSS!
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08:25	jnthn	Writing talks the day I'm giving them. I do it for dotnet events too.
08:25	masak	:)
08:25	* jnthn	busily slide hacks
08:30	* masak	eyes $¢ warily. again.
08:32	sorear	?
08:32		QinGW left #perl6
08:32	jnthn	masak: Like to give us your 2 cents on that?
08:33	masak	sure.
08:33	* moritz_	expected such a punchline
08:33	masak	I completely missed that :P
08:34	masak	anyway, I don't see the rationale for making it a non-ASCII identifier just to make it one character long.
08:35	masak	we used to have a ¥ operator, but we decided against it. it became Z instead.
08:35	moritz_	I think the point is that it shouldn't be colliding with normal user-space variables
08:36	moritz_	rakudo: say '¢' ~~ /\w/
08:36	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«␤»
08:36	moritz_	rakudo: say so '¢' ~~ /\w/
08:36	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
08:36	masak	right, so it's in the same class as $_ and $/
08:36	moritz_	right
08:37	masak	and those have to be one-char.
08:41	moritz_	maybe you could make it $¢/! but that wouldn't have any advantage over one char
08:42	masak	I was going to argue for $MATCH or some such, but I think I buy your argument about it needing to be a one-char non-\w identifier.
08:43	jnthn	I guess it'd be $CURSOR rtahre than $MATCH
08:43	moritz_	but that would be a bit much CURSing in the source
08:43	masak	jnthn: oh, right. thanks.
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08:47	jnthn	moritz_: yeah, no shit.
08:47	Achilles14	hi all, is there a compiler that can compile perl6 source to .pbc file? I can not find it in perl6 command line options.
08:48	moritz_	Achilles14: rakudo can do it
08:48	moritz_	Achilles14: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/per[…]cutable.writeback
08:52	Achilles14	moritz_: thanks, it works.
08:52	moritz_	\o/
08:52	moritz_	at some point somebody should write a --compile option or so for rakudo
08:53	jnthn	--target=pbc would be nais.
08:53	Achilles14	moritz_: I remember early parrot version have this tool.
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08:55	Achilles14	another question: is there anything like java's CLASSPATH, that I can deploy my program and dependencies seperately?
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08:57	moritz_	there's a PERL6LIB environment variable
08:57	moritz_	rakudo: say ~@*INC
08:57	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«lib /home/p6eval/.perl6/lib /home/p6eval/p1/lib/parrot/2.10.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib .␤»
08:58		[particle] joined #perl6
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09:00	Achilles14	can lib be pbc? so any programming language can use it. I think PERL6LIB is not the answer. may be something like PARROT_LIB be.
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09:03	Achilles14	"parrot -M./common.pbc main.pbc", something like this.
09:04	moritz_	Perl 6 libraries can be precompiled, but you still need the source around
09:04	moritz_	there are ways to load foreign libs, but currently they aren't as simple as we'd like them to be
09:04	wallberg	hi all
09:05	moritz_	hi wallberg
09:05	masak	wallberg! \o/
09:05	Achilles14	wallberg! \o/
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09:08	wallberg	masak: i've made up my mind now. i'll have a go at making a phylogenetic program in Perl 6, which is the best way I can contribute to Perl 6. but I will need some help, especially with the grammars to read a newick tree :-)
09:08	masak	wallberg: absolutely.
09:08	masak	wallberg: pro tip: write tests for your grammar.
09:08	masak	that way, you won't regress on silly things.
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09:09	masak	beyond that, I'm more than willing to help with the nitty gritty stuff.
09:09		wooden joined #perl6
09:09		wooden left #perl6
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09:09	masak	so, I guess, are many others around here.
09:09	moritz_	wallberg: pro tip: read http://perlgeek.de/en/article/[…]-a-perl-6-grammar :-)
09:10	masak	yeah, what moritz_++ said.
09:10	masak	understanding the difference between regex/token/rule is also important. but that only comes with using them in practice for a while.
09:11	wallberg	thanks guys. what editor is everyone writing their P6 code in these days? vim? Padre?
09:12	* masak	codes in vim
09:12	* moritz_	uses vim too
09:12	masak	my general rule of thumb seems to be 'code in vim, write prose in Emacs' :)
09:13	masak	all other editors have left me wildly underwhelmed so far.
09:13	masak	come back when you have something with macros and scriptability, like vim and Emacs.
09:13	moritz_	masak: I'm curious, why the distinction?
09:14	moritz_	do you edit code more, while writing prose straight away?
09:14	masak	moritz_: it's deeper than that. a lot of subtle things make the whole user experience of the two programs more suitable for that kind of writing... at least for me.
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09:15	masak	moritz_: Emacs seems to "think" in paragraphs. vim has a lot of navigational and manipulative commands that are adjusted for code (or other hierarchical) primitives.
09:16	wallberg	well, I need something that tells me "nooooo!! you're doing it wroooong!!" as I type, so I'll start with Padre and see how it goes. or does vim have live syntax checking?
09:17	Achilles14	I suggest emacs.
09:17	masak	I emphatically don't need an editor to tell me I'm doing things wrong.
09:18	* Tene	vim
09:18	moritz_	wallberg: it highlits in real time, that's all
09:19	wallberg	masak: yeah, it would be nice with an editor that says "Good job!" every once in a while.
09:20	Tene	masak: {} in vim navigate by paragraphs. also 'p' in object-select. I haven't done much with emacs; what does emacs do differently there?
09:20	Tene	Also () and s for sentences.
09:20	masak	wallberg: reminds me of INTERCAL's insistence of prefixing an appropriate fraction of statements with "PLEASE " :)
09:21	masak	Tene: nod. I know that. seems in describing the quality I'm after, I botched it altogether.
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09:21	masak	Tene: vim is not bad for editing prose text either, it's just that I find Emacs to be more suited for it. YMMV.
09:22	Tene	masak: I was curious about your milage, not trying to assert anything about mine.
09:22	masak	Tene: and yes, I use {} a lot already. I've actually turned off the arrow navigation keys in order to become more mindful of navigation.
09:22	Juerd	vim is hard for prose because it doesn't support long lines
09:22	Juerd	I do use it, but with line wrapping and manual re-wrapping
09:22	Juerd	re-flowing even
09:22	Tene	I haven't used emacs much.
09:22	Juerd	Well, not really manual. I use gq.
09:23	Tene	I have vertical arrows mapped to gk and gj
09:23	Tene	I rarely use them.
09:24	Juerd	Ahhh. Thanks
09:25	Tene	Oh, I guess if you didn't know those, long lines might be a bit more awkward for you. :)
09:27	masak	Emacs is wonderful when it comes to re-flowing emails with those '>'s in them.
09:27	moritz_	#perl6 - learn something new about the editor you've been using for $n years
09:27	Tene	Every six months or so, I go read through the vim docs and look for something new to try using.
09:28	szbalint	sometimes I think there is too much to learn about vim
09:28	masak	oh, and the vim docs are awesome.
09:28	Tene	Marks were the biggest thing that stuck with me, since about 1.5 years ago.
09:28	szbalint	most of the features don't fit in my head.
09:28	tadzik	hello sixers
09:28	szbalint	I am happy with those that do, though :)
09:28	masak	tadzik: \o
09:29	Tene	I also try to do that with bash, but less-frequently. alt+. is a nice hotkey that is severely underused. ^R even more so.
09:29	mathw	o/
09:29	Tene	It pains me seeing people re-type things that they could call up with like three keystrokes.
09:29	moritz_	alt+. is last argument from last line, right?
09:29	mathw	I've got a friend who can never remember ^R
09:29	Tene	moritz_: repeat it to recall last arguments from previous commands in the history.
09:29	moritz_	right
09:29	mathw	but since I found out about it I've used it constantly
09:29	moritz_	I use Esc. which I guess is the same
09:30	Tene	Yeah, same.
09:30	mathw	Didn't know about alt+.
09:30	* mathw	tries it
09:30	mathw	AWESOME!
09:30	mathw	Tene++
09:30	Tene	You can also use ctrl+alt+y for arbitrary arguments from the previous command
09:31	Tene	Esc,3,ctrl+alt+y = recall the fourth word from the previous command
09:31	wallberg	hmm, I seem to have the ability to turn the whole channel off-topic. This isn't the first time :-)
09:31	Tene	Or even esc,-,2 for second from the end
09:32	Tene	I nearly never use it, but sometimes it's useful if there's a long url or something in there.
09:32	moritz_	wallberg: that's fine, as long as no ongoing p6 discussion is disturbed by it
09:32	mathw	And we're learning things
09:32	Tene	It's nice to look through: bind -p \| grep -Ev 'not bound\|self-insert'
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09:33	Tene	I've got a co-worker who is very set in his ways, and very resistant to changing anything, and it's painful to pair with him
09:34	Tene	instead of ^Rfoo<enter>, he insists on using !foo:p<enter><mouse copy paste>
09:36	Tene	Wow, I never knew about alt-y. I've wanted that many times.
09:36	Tene	"Rotate the kill-ring, and yank the new top. You can only do this if the prior command is yank or yank-pop."
09:36	Tene	http://www.gnu.org/software/ba[…]-For-Killing.html
09:36	moritz_	good news: all those commands are from readline, and every readline app gets the same by default
09:37	Tene	Yeah, readline++
09:37	Tene	Also, if you're not familiar with it, rlwrap is great.
09:38	Tene	I use it all over the place to use readline with programs that don't have it built in.
09:44	masak	wow! Tene++ # rlwrap
09:46	moritz_	.u phi
09:46	phenny	U+03D5 GREEK PHI SYMBOL (ϕ)
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09:51	masak	getting heisenbug-like behaviour from the .trans thing.
09:52	masak	I have this habit when doing .trans changes to rip the whole bit of code out into a script, do MONKEY_TYPING and augment the Str class with a new 'trans' method.
09:52	masak	when I do it like that, it behaves as expected.
09:53	masak	but when I run exactly the same test on the old .trans, it fails.
09:54	moritz_	that's... weird
09:55	mathw	that's really quite disturbing
09:55	masak	I can't really explain that right now.
09:55	mathw	I hate that kind of bug
09:55	masak	anyone want to try the script?
09:56	moritz_	did you remove .trans from Str before monkeytyping?
09:56	masak	no.
09:56	masak	actually, it's in Cool.
09:57	moritz_	ah, when it's in Cool you can monkey-type it into Str
09:57	masak	here's the code: https://gist.github.com/716485
09:58	masak	first, I monkey-patch Str. then, I run all the Rakudo-enabled spectests.
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09:58	masak	note that I call the experimental variant .xtrans to keep things straight.
09:58	masak	last two tests are the ones that differ. (and really shouldn't)
10:02	Tene	masak: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but afaict, that script doesn't modify .trans in Str, only adds .xtrans
10:02	masak	Tene: that's correct.
10:02	Tene	So, I'm not surprised that they differ
10:02	masak	Tene: but I just copied the code from Rakudo.
10:03	masak	it's the same code.
10:03	Tene	Ah.
10:06	masak	actually, the obvious conclusion is that it's not the same code. that would fit better with the observation.
10:06	masak	but why it wouldn't be, or how to test that it isn't, I don't know.
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10:07	masak	there's only ever one definition of .trans in Rakudo, and that's in src/core/Cool-str.pm
10:07	mathw	Heisenbug indeed
10:08	Tene	Well, lemme update rakudo and check.
10:09	masak	sure thing.
10:11	masak	suspecting it might have something to do with the naming, I renamed 'xtrans' to 'trans' in my script. the 'trans' test succeeds then.
10:12	masak	which means it's unrelated to naming.
10:12	masak	which is disturbing, because then it's likely the core in itself that's causing this.
10:13	masak	oh! could be something related to Cool/Str.
10:13	Tene	That sounds to me like 'the version in core and the version augmented here differ'
10:13	masak	right.
10:13	Tene	You've recently had trouble with cached copies. Is the compiled version different from the source?
10:13	Tene	As you mentioned augmenting instead of recompiling.
10:14	masak	rakudo: say "aaabbbccc".trans( / \s+ / => " " )
10:14	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«aaa ␤»
10:14	masak	I think that rules out any issues with my local Rakudo.
10:15	Tene	... is that right? That looks broken to me. Why does 'b' match \s+ ?
10:15	masak	Tene: it's broken. that's the point.
10:15	masak	http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/[…]lay.html?id=79778
10:15	masak	that's what I'm trying to diagnose and fix.
10:16	masak	that's what's going all heisen on me.
10:16	Tene	Oh, right, this is the part that takes FOREVER now. :(
10:17	Tene	So, the last two tests differ in behavior. What is the difference?
10:17	masak	one goes to the augmented method, the other goes to the method in Cool in the setting.
10:18	Tene	I'm sorry. What's the difference in behavior?
10:18	Tene	I'm still waiting on rakudo to build.
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10:19	moritz_	masak: fwiw your example works fine for me on the REPL
10:19	masak	Tene: ah. the setting one exposes the bug in the RT.
10:19	masak	Tene: the augmented one doesn't.
10:19	masak	moritz_: testing.
10:19	moritz_	and in a script too
10:19	tadzik	it semi-works for me
10:19	tadzik	> say "a aab bbccc".trans( / \s+ / => " " )
10:19	lambdabot	<no location info>: parse error on input `+'
10:19	tadzik	a aab bbccc
10:20	moritz_	This is Rakudo Perl 6, version 2010.11-4-g90cb844 built on parrot 2.10.1 RELEASE_2_10_1-421-g73ceeb1
10:20	Tene	I thought we got rid of lambdabot?
10:20	moritz_	.u pi
10:20	phenny	U+A03A YI SYLLABLE PI (ꀺ)
10:21	Tene	π
10:21	masak	moritz_: hm. works on the REPL here too.
10:21	Tene	.u π
10:21	phenny	U+03C0 GREEK SMALL LETTER PI (π)
10:22	masak	I'm starting to suspect I simply have an old installed version of Rakudo.
10:22	masak	moritz_++
10:22	Tene	Rakudo compile supposed to take so much longer than it used to? :(
10:23	Tene	masak: As I said. :)
10:23	moritz_	Tene: on a new parrot it's supposed to be a bit faster again
10:23	Tene	moritz_: Ah, I'm just using whatever --gen-parrot fetches for me
10:23	moritz_	Tene: if you rakudo is new enough, you should get a "fast" parrot
10:24	masak	how do I configure Rakudo to install into /usr/local/bin/perl6 ?
10:24	moritz_	perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-parrot-prefix=/usr/local
10:24	masak	thanks.
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10:25	Tene	masak: Both tests pass for me.
10:25	masak	good. then I seem to have nothing to worry about.
10:25	Tene	moritz_: I just pulled from git right before building, so latest rakudo master
10:25	masak	Tene++ # thanks for the help
10:25	masak	I'm glad it wasn't a real heisenbug.
10:26	moritz_	it seems rakudo rebuild on p6eval is busted
10:26	masak	that would explain that part of the mystery.
10:26	Tene	http://www.guardian.co.uk/scie[…]-image-back-hands# -- fascinating
10:40	masak	now everything works over here.
10:40	Tene	:D
10:40	masak	so there really was no problem with .trans
10:41	masak	I'm glad that's the case, because it felt like I fixed it last time :P
10:42	moritz_	$ perl evalbot/build.pl rakudo
10:42	moritz_	Can't handle revision 'RELEASE_2_10_1-477-gfa56f62
10:43	moritz_	' at /home/p6eval/evalbot/build-scripts//rebuild-rakudo.pl line 43.
10:43	masak	I've recently switched to building with --gen-parrot, so I guess that's what confused me.
10:43	Tene	Ah.
10:43	masak	now November works (mostly) fine! \o/
10:44	Tene	\o/
10:44	mathw	wooo!
10:44	tadzik	wow!
10:44	tadzik	that means Web.pm too?
10:45	masak	no, but I will turn my attention to Web.pm in the weekend.
10:46	masak	got another reminder email from jhorwitz++ about Web.pm. I'll reply to that one today, and try to get the dreaded Week 20 done in the weekend.
10:46	* masak	replies now
10:48	tadzik	does Web.pm have HTTP headers parser?
10:48	masak	no.
10:49	masak	the Rack paradigm assumes that HTTP headers come in through the usual CGI manner, in environment variables.
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10:55	tadzik	I feel like writing that
10:55	masak	please go ahead.
10:55	mathw	HTTP parsing is fun
10:56	Tene	tadzik: it's the job of whatever is running the rack-style app to handle parsing the HTTP headers.
10:57	Tene	In Web.pm case, usually HTTP::Daemon
11:00	tadzik	It also seems simple
11:03	tadzik	how funny it'd be to have a Plack-alike for Perl 6?
11:07	masak	lunch &
11:13	Tene	tadzik: Funny? I think it's an admirable goal.
11:13	* sorear	out
11:15	moritz_	didn't mberends++ start a clone?
11:20	tadzik	server-simple-psgi, right
11:21	tadzik	Tene: it doesn't differ much for me :)
11:21	tadzik	https://github.com/mberends/ht[…]05-psgi-small.pl6 there it is
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11:37	fcojocaru	any way a newbie to perl can help as a dumb tester?
11:45	colomon	absolutely!
11:45	masak	oh, that would rock.
11:45	masak	fcojocaru: even going through RT and just running stuff would help us.
11:46	fcojocaru	any wiki/trac page to get me started?
11:46	fcojocaru	what do you use to keep track of the tickets ?
11:46	tadzik	fcojocaru: newbie to Perl, or newbie to Perl 6?
11:46	masak	http://rt.perl.org/rt3/
11:46	fcojocaru	to perl unfortunately
11:46	colomon	fcojocaru: masak means the bug tracking software... checking filed bugs to see what they do now.
11:46	fcojocaru	so I can only help on low level stuff
11:46	fcojocaru	sorry
11:47	colomon	but also, you could provide valuable feedback on the book they are working on.
11:47	masak	we need all kinds of newbies. :)
11:47	fcojocaru	one at a time guys
11:47	tadzik	fcojocaru: go throught the Book (http://github.com/perl6/book) to learn your way around, it's quite probably you'll find some bugs/broken examples
11:47	tadzik	that'll also help you understand stuff
11:47	fcojocaru	good point
11:48	tadzik	Eventually you'll become a warrior in our MMORPG :)
11:48	fcojocaru	I send back issues to someone specific or use the http://rt.perl.org/rt3/?
11:48	fcojocaru	I'll have to decline the offer with the warrior
11:49	fcojocaru	I'm more of a bear thing you see
11:49	fcojocaru	so maybe a creep
11:49	fcojocaru	?
11:49	tadzik	I don't think so
11:49	tadzik	loook at http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39445
11:49	masak	please don't link to use.perl anymore :P
11:49	tadzik	fcojocaru: OOC< how did you got interested in Perl6?
11:49	masak	http://strangelyconsistent.org[…]rl-6-is-my-mmorpg
11:49	* tadzik	updates his bookmarks
11:50	masak	tadzik++
11:50	fcojocaru	quite easy , I'm trying to learn perl5 now and wanted to see the future
11:51	fcojocaru	since I'm out of ideas on what to write to get me around, testing a bunch of stuff for perl6 gives you lots of insight
11:51	masak	the future is here already. it's just unevenly distributed. :)
11:51	fcojocaru	so it seems a good thing to do , whenever I have the time
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11:53	fcojocaru	Thank y ou all for the welcome , I'll start going trough the book and hopefully be of some use to you
11:53	fcojocaru	Good Luck
11:53	masak	likewise.
11:53	masak	stop by often :)
11:54	fcojocaru	will do
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12:30	tadzik	phenny: "さようなら"?
12:30	phenny	tadzik: "Bye" (ja to en, translate.google.com)
12:32	masak	"sayōnara". guess it's the macron over the ō that makes it five characters, even though it's four syllables.
12:34	sbp	phenny: "さようなら"?
12:34	phenny	sbp: "That they are" (ja to en, translate.google.com)
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12:46	Tene	.u さようなら
12:46	phenny	Tene: U+3055 U+3088 U+3046 U+306A U+3089
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13:10	jnthn	rakudo: (1, 1, * + * ... Inf)[0..10].join(', ').say
13:10	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89␤»
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13:17	masak	rakudo: say (1, 1, * + * ... Inf)[0..10].fmt(:separator(", "))
13:17	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89␤»
13:17	masak	\o/
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13:43	masak	groan you may take the au++ out of #perl6, but you can never take the #perl6 out of au: http://twitter.com/audreyt/sta[…]/8152126110826497
13:43	masak	punnery worthy of Worthington. :)
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14:12	takadonet	i cannot wait for smash to do the benchmarking for the newest rakudo star version
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14:20	colomon	takadonet: why?
14:21	takadonet	colomon: should see a huge speed up on startup times
14:21	colomon	ah
14:21	colomon	need to get smash to check in the scripts for running the benchmarks (if he hasn't already) so we can all duplicate them locally.
14:22	takadonet	ya
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14:23	colomon	I don't see any trace of the harness in bench-scripts. :(
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15:08	oha	am i missing something, or the parenthesis are mandatory for a method call, but not on a sub call?
15:09	jnthn	rakudo: 42.say
15:09	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«42␤»
15:09	jnthn	oha: But if you want args, then yes
15:10	masak	well,
15:10	jnthn	oha: There's also this colon syntax. :)
15:10	oha	with args, yes
15:10	masak	right.
15:10	jnthn	But, well...
15:10	oha	jnthn: could you explain the colon syntax a bit?
15:10	jnthn	I think the colon is better left in smileys.
15:10	colomon	rakudo: $*OUT.say: 42
15:10	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«42␤»
15:10	oha	ty
15:10	masak	rakudo: say 42.fmt: "%05.2f"
15:10	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«42.00␤»
15:11	colomon	but yeah, I'm not a big fan of the colon form in general
15:11	jnthn	(Some people like the colon syntax a lot. It's not my preference...but I've nothing really against it either.)
15:11	colomon	still, TMTOWTDI
15:11	masak	kill it with fire. :)
15:11	jnthn	masak: -> #parrot
15:11	jnthn	;)
15:13	masak	jnthn: what's this ':notdef:' thing? http://twitter.com/uasi/status/8174326008258560
15:13	masak	looks made up.
15:15	jnthn	.:notdef maybe once woulda worked?
15:15	jnthn	No, that still loosk wrong
15:15	jnthn	Looks made up to be :)
15:15	jnthn	There was a notdef method once.
15:15	MindosCheng	pugs: <sleep read>.pick()
15:15	p6eval	pugs: ( no output )
15:15	MindosCheng	pugs: say <sleep read>.pick()
15:15	p6eval	pugs: OUTPUT«read␤»
15:15	MindosCheng	Okey...
15:16	jnthn	Perl 6. Solving your important life decisions.
15:16	* masak	replies to uasi
15:16	masak	perl6: say <work rest>.pick
15:16	p6eval	pugs: OUTPUT«rest␤»
15:16	p6eval	..rakudo : OUTPUT«work␤»
15:16	masak	oh noes :)
15:16	jnthn	I like Pugs answer better here. :)
15:17	masak	the two implementations kinda reveal their current active status, too.
15:17	jnthn	:)
15:17	MindosCheng	masak++
15:17	jnthn	ooh, almost time for my next talk
15:18	mathw	ooh
15:18	mathw	what's it on
15:18	MindosCheng	jnthn++
15:19	masak	oh, there's a blog post too, containing a similar error: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/uasi/20101126/1290783645
15:20	masak	oh wait!
15:20	masak	:!defined: does work.
15:20	masak	but it... looks so wrong... :)
15:20	masak	the second colon is an invocant colon.
15:21	masak	the first is a pair constructor, along the same principles as :e
15:21	* masak	holds head in hands
15:22	masak	how does one designate "invocant undefined" using the :U syntax?
15:23	colomon	method blah(Frob:U $self:)
15:23	colomon	(he guessed, no idea if this works)
15:23	masak	right. thanks.
15:25	colomon	rakudo: sub blah(Str:U $not-a-string) { say $not-a-string.defined }; blah(Str)
15:25	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Invalid typename in parameter declaration at line 22, near " $not-a-st"␤»
15:25	colomon	rakudo: sub blah(Str $not-a-string) { say $not-a-string.defined }; blah(Str)
15:25	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
15:25	masak	that's what I got locally too.
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15:35	masak	rakudo: say 42.notdef
15:35	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
15:35	masak	I'm not sure I can submit a rakudobug for this one. :)
15:36	masak	for all I know, it's "extra functionality" that Rakudo provides, on top of the spec.
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16:10	moritz_	std: sub bla(Int:U $x) { $x }
16:10	p6eval	std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
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16:12	tadzik	hello again
16:19	masak	std: class C { method bla($?CLASS:U $self:) {} }
16:19	p6eval	std a194beb: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤You may not use the ? twigil in a signature at /tmp/dF09kjh67D line 1:␤------> class C { method bla($⏏?CLASS:U $self:) {} }␤ expecting twigil␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
16:19	masak	didn't think so.
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16:23	masak	wow, JS to "borrow" the Perl 6 way of writing if/while/etc expressions without parens? http://twitter.com/Smylers2/st[…]/8191234032013312
16:25	takadonet	the original post does not even talk about Perl 6 !
16:25	takadonet	http://brendaneich.com/2010/11/paren-free/
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16:49	kthakore	masak: morning.
16:49	masak	kthakore: hi there.
16:50	kthakore	I am trying to remember our convo last night (6 hrs ago)
16:50	kthakore	Where did you say most of perl6's memory gets into?
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16:51	kthakore	in parrot or perl6 land or a combination of both?
16:51	flussence	http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl[…]0-11-26#i_3031080 ?
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16:53	kthakore	flussence: yeah but that makes no sense to me
16:53	kthakore	tooling?
16:53	kthakore	what is that?
16:53	masak	kthakore: I was thinking about the tools required to make Rakudo.
16:53	kthakore	ah ... ok
16:53	masak	nqp-rx being the most prominent example.
16:53	tadzik	„Learning Perl 6 has been fun. I already want to stop writing Perl 5.”. Hah, I'm not the only one
16:54	kthakore	masak: well where does perl6's memory useage mostly lie? Did anyone do a static analysis?
16:54	kthakore	tadzik: yay from reddit :D
16:54	masak	nqp-rx is the embodiment of lessons learned from PCT, which in turn profited from lessons learned from PGE and TGE.
16:54	masak	kthakore: yes, I'm sure chromatic has done memory footprint analyses.
16:54	tadzik	kthakore: which thing? :)
16:55	masak	kthakore: I think "a combination of both" is most fair.
16:55	kthakore	ok
16:55	masak	kthakore: we know of memory inefficiencies in Parrot, and in Rakudo.
16:55	tadzik	kthakore: yay for Game programming tutorial :)
16:55	kthakore	is a problem of design or just how it is implemented at the time?
16:55	kthakore	tadzik: :D have you seen SDL_Manual?
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16:56	kthakore	tadzik: I tried last night to get SDL onto parrot and Perl6 ... but the memory and CPU usage of perl6 is not ready for it yet
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16:58	masak	kthakore: maybe you could try to conspire with either jnthn/nqpnet or sorear/niecza, either of which probably has a smaller memory footprint.
16:59	masak	nomz &
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17:12	tadzik	kthakore: yes, I love it! I wouldn't mind it PDF'd though
17:13	* moritz_	wonders if oha's p6l mail should have gone to p6u
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17:14	* tadzik	wonders whether he should subscribe p6l
17:14	oha	moritz_: if i've written in the wrong place, i'm sorry
17:15	oha	tadzik: and sorry if my mail is annoying :(
17:16	moritz_	oha: no problem, I was just surprised because usually p6l posts contain some new suggestions for the language
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17:16	moritz_	oha: I haven't quite understood what you want do with the signature
17:16	tadzik	oha: I don't know, haven't read that yet
17:17	moritz_	did you try to get the names of the parameters?
17:17	oha	moritz_: it is what i did
17:17	moritz_	ah
17:17	moritz_	"TODO: i would like to find a way to use the Signature for table names"
17:18	moritz_	that's the part I didn't understand
17:18	oha	but if you consider a "select tab1.field1, tab2.field2"
17:18	moritz_	how would a calling example look like?
17:18	moritz_	ah
17:18	oha	then the signature couldn't be $x.y
17:18	moritz_	fully qualified table names
17:18	oha	yep
17:18	oha	(or aliases, whatever)
17:18	* moritz_	finally understands
17:19	* moritz_	has no idea how to do that
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17:19	oha	moritz_: i was thinking on nested signatures
17:19	oha	but i still can't find a way to name a nested sig
17:20	moritz_	of course you could define some substitution rules
17:20	moritz_	$me-foo becomes me.foo
17:20	tadzik	oha: what is your realname, so I can find your post?
17:20	moritz_	also ' is allowed in identifiers
17:20	oha	moritz_: yup. anyway i have to confess that i've started thinking how to do something like chagning the perl6 grammar
17:20	moritz_	tadzik: sender is Oha <ohaoha.it>
17:21	oha	tarzik: should be Oha
17:21	oha	moritz_: but then i've realized it could be done without, and i enjoyed it. feeling happy i tout it was good to share this :)
17:21	oha	moritz_: nice, the ' is the best candidate for
17:22	tadzik	doesn't look bad to me
17:22		M_o_C joined #perl6
17:23	oha	well, time to go home for me. ty for your suggestion moritz_. bye all
17:24	moritz_	cia oha
17:24	moritz_	oha: fwiw you might like to use placeholders instead of pointies
17:24		oha left #perl6
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17:32	moritz_	oatclip monads: http://chrisdone.com/posts/201[…]lisp-haskell.html
17:35	moritz_	or rather, fingernails in oatmeal monads
17:35	moritz_	whatever
17:35	* moritz_	is out of brainz
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18:26	tadzik	std: my @a; @a[-1]
18:26	p6eval	std a194beb: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m␤Unsupported use of [-1] subscript to access from end of array; in Perl 6 please use [*-1] at /tmp/OKV6umIuEc line 1:␤------> my @a; @a[-1]⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
18:27		cjk101010 left #perl6
18:27	tadzik	rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; @a[-1];
18:27	p6eval	rakudo : ( no output )
18:27	tadzik	rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; @a[-1]; say $!
18:27	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«Any()␤»
18:28	tadzik	rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; try { @a[-1]; } say $!
18:28	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "try { @a[-"␤»
18:28	mkramer	rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; say @a[-1];
18:28	tadzik	oh come on
18:28	p6eval	rakudo : ( no output )
18:28	tadzik	===SORRY!===
18:28	tadzik	Cannot use negative index -1 on Array
18:28	tadzik	so http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/[…]lay.html?id=63986 can be closed, no?
18:28	jnthn	*-1
18:28	mkramer	my @a = 1, 2, 3; say @a[*-1];
18:28	mkramer	blah
18:28	tadzik	yeah, I meant the bug. It should fail, that's ok
18:29	mkramer	just make this damn bot print its last expression =P
18:29	tadzik	I can fix the error message so it will behave like STD and we can mark that bug fixed
18:29	jnthn	(from earlier) "how does one designate "invocant undefined" using the :U syntax"?
18:30	jnthn	method (Foo:U $self:) { ... } # works
18:30	jnthn	But also should
18:30	jnthn	method (::?CLASS:U $self:) { ... }
18:32	tadzik	I think this one also works now: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/[…]lay.html?id=66252
18:33	tadzik	this too: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/[…]lay.html?id=67374
18:36	oha	am i wrong or @a[-1] should not be the same error of $x=-1; @a[$x]; ?
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18:37	tadzik	hmm, it can't be in-grammar then
18:37	* tadzik	feels like fixing
18:38	oha	tadzik: right now, rakudo exit with the same error to me
18:38	tadzik	fail "Cannot use negative index $pos on {self.WHO}" if $pos < 0;
18:38	tadzik	in Any-List.pm. Looks good to me, I think the bug can be closed
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18:40	tadzik	http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/[…]lay.html?id=69218 -- closable to, methinks
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18:45	tadzik	http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/[…]lay.html?id=72968 and this
18:45		ggoebel left #perl6
18:45	tadzik	...is there a RT guy around?
18:45	tadzik	s/a/an/
18:47	tadzik	or this: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/[…]lay.html?id=73148
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18:52	tadzik	std: say
18:53	p6eval	std a194beb: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Unsupported use of bare 'say'; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument at /tmp/xyp8lC4b3r line 1:␤------> say⏏<EOL>␤ok 00:01 117m␤»
18:53	flussence	ooh, p5.13.7 just made a huge amount of my $dayjob code redundant.
18:53	moritz_	flussence: with which feature?
18:54	flussence	auto-dereferencing array/hashrefs in builtins
18:54	moritz_	ah
18:56	tadzik	http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/[…]lay.html?id=74476 -- closable
18:56	moritz_	do we have tests enabled for that?
18:59	moritz_	ah yes, colomon++ unfudged some
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19:03	tadzik	http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/[…]lay.html?id=76238 -- closable
19:04		patrickas joined #perl6
19:05	patrickas	moritz_ ping
19:05		bpa joined #perl6
19:06	moritz_	patrickas: pong
19:06	patrickas	hello boss !
19:06	patrickas	did you work on getting rakudo to build after the parrot git migration?
19:07	tadzik	hey, it works
19:07	tadzik	moritz_: do you have RT access?
19:09	moritz_	patrickas: yes
19:09	moritz_	tadzik: yes
19:09	moritz_	tadzik: don't you?
19:12	patrickas	moritz_: there are a few things not working for me (on win32) and I am unable to build rakudo anymore which might be unrelated
19:12	moritz_	patrickas: I don't have a win32 dev machine, so any fixes are very welcome
19:13	tadzik	moritz_: nah
19:13	tadzik	I wanted to do some bugfixing today, but everything I check works alredy
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19:13	patrickas	The thing is I am building from scratch and I want to make sure that it is not my setup that is messed up ... did anyone else coplain on win32 ?
19:13	moritz_	tadzik: step 1: create an RT account
19:13	patrickas	or rather ... did anyone build successfully on win32 ?
19:13	moritz_	tadzik: step 2: tell pmichaud about your account name, and request edit privs for the perl6 queue
19:14	moritz_	patrickas: jnthn did some testing, fixed a failure, did it RONG, I fixed it differently... I don't know what the final outcome was
19:15	patrickas	ok then I'll take it up with him then..t hanks!
19:16	tadzik	phenny: tell pmichaud may I get the access to perl 6 RT? I found like 10 bugs today which are alredy working and can be closed
19:16	phenny	tadzik: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
19:16		M_o_C left #perl6
19:18	moritz_	tadzik: go to http://rt.perl.org/rt3/ and create an account (follow the "Get a Bitcard account" link), and then also phennytell pmichaud your nick
19:19		lamstyle joined #perl6
19:24	tadzik	moritz_: done that
19:27	bpa	I've been trying rakudo on and off, really liking what I see. I'm wondering if I've missed a dropped feature, or if I just imagined it. Did this work before? for 1 .. 3 b $x ...
19:27	Juerd	Er...
19:27	bpa	that is supposed to be the -> unicode character
19:27	Juerd	Unless you're suggesting blinking text as syntax feature, you may want to send that line again.
19:28	bpa	I don't think my irc client supports it
19:28	bpa	sorry about that
19:28	Juerd	:)
19:28	flussence	“→”?
19:28	bpa	In code it looks like a nice right arrow
19:29	Juerd	I think it'd be madness to support arrows like that, since there are quite a few in Unicode.
19:29	bpa	so I was just imagining it then?
19:29	Juerd	I guess so, especially as the language operators fit in latin1
19:29	gfldex	bpa: or you might have visions. with perl6 you cant relly tell the difference :)
19:30	bpa	I may have used it with pugs, can't really remember
19:30	bpa	The hyper operator works though, and that isn't ascii
19:30	gfldex	perl6 requires unicode
19:30	Juerd	Still unlikely, bpa
19:30	gfldex	if you want to you could define operaters like that
19:31	Juerd	You can
19:31	flussence	»« aren't ascii, but they are in iso8859-1
19:33	bpa	I think I'll stick with the core operators and not confuse people who may come across my code
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19:34	bpa	I do think its amazing that I could extend the grammar do to it if I really wanted though
19:34	bpa	(without editing the source that is)
19:35	dalek	rakudo: 82f3de0 \| patrickas++ \| build/gen_parrot.pl:
19:35	dalek	rakudo: extra check needed for gen_parrot on win32
19:35	dalek	rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/raku[…]commit/82f3de068b
19:39	oha	rakudo: "a'b" ~~ /((\w+)\')?(\w+)/; say $/[0][0], "\|", $/[0][0][0];
19:39	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«a'\|a␤»
19:40	oha	i expected to get 'a' with the $/[0][0]; why must I use $/[0][0][0]?
19:40	oha	is the ? which make an array here?
19:40	moritz_	yes
19:41	moritz_	every quantifier turns that capture into an array
19:41	oha	i had to realize it alone
19:44	sjohnson	hi pals
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19:47	moritz_	oha: if you use too many nested captures, you should think about using (named) subrules
19:51	TimToady	or [] where you don't care to capture
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19:59	oha	moritz_: i've used $<foo>=(...)
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20:00	oha	can i do something similar to: -> %x<foo> { ... }
20:02	TimToady	such binding has been conjectured, though you can't have a subscript as a formal parameter name
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20:25	masak	ahoy!
20:26	jnthn	ahoj, masak :)
20:26	tadzik	ahoj :)
20:27	jnthn	rakudo: sub foo($ where (my %x<h> = $_)) { say %x<h> }; foo(42); # curious...
20:27	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at line 22, near "$ where (m"␤»
20:27	jnthn	rakudo: sub foo($x where (my %x<h> = $_)) { say %x<h> }; foo(42); # curious...
20:27	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
20:27	jnthn	oh...
20:27	jnthn	duh :)
20:28	jnthn	rakudo: sub foo($ where (my %x, %x<h> = $_)) { say %x<h> }; foo(42);
20:28	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter ''␤ in 'foo' at line 22:/tmp/asBHelsmTw␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/asBHelsmTw␤»
20:28	jnthn	Hmm. :)
20:28	silug	warren: i'm surprised there aren't any commercial entities taking enough of an interest in spamassassin to put some manpower behind it.
20:28	jnthn	rakudo: sub foo($x where (my %x, %x<h> = $x)) { say %x<h> }; foo(42);
20:28	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter '$x'␤ in 'foo' at line 22:/tmp/YkiX0jvns_␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/YkiX0jvns_␤»
20:28	silug	urk
20:28	* jnthn	gets curious what that ends up failing...
20:29	jnthn	It's still pretty nasty looking even if it worked though.
20:30	masak	I'm just going to blog a little, and then I'll go to bed.
20:30	masak	don't want to ruin my good sleep streak :)
20:32	masak	tadzik++ # digging around in RT
20:32	tadzik	masak: I wanted to fix some bugs, but all of them were alredy fixed :(
20:33	masak	tadzik: how terrible! :)
20:33	masak	jnthn: why was this again? http://twitter.com/uasi/status/8254037887549440
20:34	masak	jnthn: uasi thinks it's "once for (dispatch) search, once for calling". is that the truth?
20:35	masak	also, uasi++ made a brainfuck interpreter in Perl 6: https://gist.github.com/717036
20:36	tadzik	oh, that could be a Parrot language
20:36	dukeleto	there is already a br interpreter on Parrot
20:36	dukeleto	s/br/bf/
20:37	jnthn	I think there's (white)space for a br interpreter ;-)
20:37	jnthn	masak: Yes
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20:37	jnthn	masak: It's something that I think can get optimized away but...
20:37	masak	...but not easily.
20:37	jnthn	Grr. I forget the subtlety
20:38	jnthn	We do avoid re-doing the nominal type checks.
20:38	masak	ah.
20:38	TimToady	masak: the Japanese consider the ō to be two syllables (or mora, to be preciser)
20:38	jnthn	I suspect there's a comment in the binder somewhere hinting at where to stick a future optimization in this area.
20:38	masak	TimToady: ah, thanks. that makes sense.
20:39	masak	uasi++ is very inquisitive. I like replying to his tweets.
20:39	TimToady	in fact, they would count it that way in haiku as well
20:39	masak	TimToady: I was wondering about that.
20:39	TimToady	english can stuff a lot more into a haiku than japanese can...
20:39	tadzik	Hmm, brainfuck almost works
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21:11	lue	ohayo wurld o/
21:11	masak	hellue!
21:11		kfo joined #perl6
21:12	sjohnson	hi
21:14	masak	sjohnson: \o
21:14	sjohnson	:)
21:14		kfo_ left #perl6
21:14	lue	it's strange. While writing a few tests last night, I started writing tests for things that will fail, and I had the urge to make them pass. But I had to go to bed [curse you rotation of the Earth due to forces I cannot quite name at this moment!!]
21:15	masak	doesn't sound strange at all.
21:15	masak	you have to learn to pace yourself.
21:15	masak	for example, start writing tests earlier in the day :)
21:16	masak	then you'll have time to implement them.
21:16	lue	it's as if... TDD works, somehow... :)
21:17	masak	so it's rumoured.
21:18	oha	does "a $x b" get compiled as "a "~$x~" b"?
21:18	ch3ck	hej masak \o
21:18	oha	or the expansion does not pass thru ~?
21:18	masak	oha: more like "a " ~ ~$x ~ " b"
21:19	masak	ch3ck: godkväll.
21:19		timbunce left #perl6
21:19	* moritz_	knows enough bokmål to understand that :-)
21:20	moritz_	though I'd say "god kveld" :-)
21:20		rurban left #perl6
21:20	ch3ck	this was swedish, not norwegian
21:20	masak	right. the language on which norwegian was based. :P
21:21	* masak	wonders whether frettled or arnsholt will slap him first :)
21:21	moritz_	uhm, I thought it was based on Danish
21:22	masak	a truly scary thought :)
21:22	masak	hm. seems my hobby today is as a language chauvinist.
21:22	frettled	hugme: hug masak
21:22	* hugme	hugs masak
21:23	masak	awww :)
21:23	masak	I'll quote Teratogen. "I'm a failed troll" :)
21:24	masak	blog post! http://strangelyconsistent.org[…]name-of-saucepans
21:24	dalek	roast: 52c1e70 \| moritz++ \| S02-builtin_data_types/array.t:
21:24	dalek	roast: [array.t] unfudge some tests that rakudo now passes
21:24	dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/52c1e701ce
21:24	masak	tadzik: did all those tickets that you yelled "closable" about ever get closed?
21:24	masak	tadzik: would you like an admin bit for RT?
21:25	moritz_	masak: I closed the first that tadzik++ yelled about, and claimed the second (because I know of no tests so far)
21:25	moritz_	then I got distracted
21:25	masak	oh, good-ish.
21:25	masak	moritz_+ # :)
21:27	lue	today's xkcd is hilarious.
21:27	moritz_	masak: :-)
21:28	frettled	Zack Weiner's guest comic is nice, yes.
21:28	frettled	And SMBC is often entertaining.
21:29	frettled	masak++ - positively good progress (blog)
21:29	masak	er.
21:29	* masak	is happy to have a clown nose: :©)
21:30	masak	frettled: yes. and the weekend will be even positiver.
21:31	oha	what am i doing wrong here? multi sub infix:<~>(B $l, Any $r --> B) { ...
21:31	lue	.oO(I knew the colon was copyrighted! I knew it!)
21:31	moritz_	oha: maybe rakudo doesn't knwo about --> yet?
21:31	masak	it does.
21:31		tylercurtis left #perl6
21:32	masak	rakudo: class B {}; multi sub infix:<~>(B $l, Any $r --> B) { ... }; say "alive"
21:32	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«alive␤»
21:32	masak	oha: from what I can see, you're doing nothing wrong.
21:32	masak	oha: please be more specific, or realize that you're doing it right. :)
21:32	oha	masak: but when i my $x = B.new; $x ~ 'foo'; the sub isn't called
21:32	masak	oha: I see.
21:32	masak	oha: can you demonstrate that with p6eval?
21:33	oha	i'm using rakudo here
21:33	masak	so is p6eval.
21:33	oha	oh ok
21:33	masak	(see above)
21:34	oha	i've understood what i was missdoing
21:34	oha	the sub was inside class B {
21:34	oha	and probably interpreted as a method of B
21:34	masak	no.
21:34	masak	but it makes it lexical inside B.
21:35	oha	ohoh! got it
21:35	masak	oha: subs and methods are separate things, at least as far as declarations are concerned.
21:35	oha	therefore i must put it outside the class, and if i'm going to include it as a pm i must declare it 'is export' too?
21:37	masak	well, there's still a difference between the file and the scope of the module.
21:37	masak	but yes, most of the time.
21:39	* masak	sleeps
21:40		masak left #perl6
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21:43	Teratogen	I'm a failed troll!?
21:44		tylercurtis joined #perl6
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22:24	dukeleto	Teratogen: that is the worst kind of troll.
22:24	Teratogen	oh dear =(
22:25	lue	rakudo: say ":a<b>" ~~ Hash # most likely fails, just curious
22:25	p6eval	rakudo : OUTPUT«0␤»
22:31	jnthn	/win 11
22:31	jnthn	...fail!
22:31	sorear	good * #perl6
22:31		`26 left #perl6
22:32	Tene	/fail 11
22:32	jnthn	:P
22:32	diakopter	sorear: good
22:38	lue	afk
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23:00	tadzik	bah, masak's gone
23:00	sorear	@part #perl6
23:00		lambdabot left #perl6
23:00	sorear	aloha: seen kthakore
23:00	aloha	sorear: kthakore was last seen in #perl6 6 hours 3 mins ago saying "tadzik: I tried last night to get SDL onto parrot and Perl6 ... but the memory and CPU usage of perl6 is not ready for it yet".
23:01	kthakore	sorear: hi
23:02		starcoder left #perl6
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23:07	eternaleye	phenny: tell masak Hey! I read HP & the methods of rationality too! I prticularly like how Draco was absolutely floored by muggles being the first humans on the moon.
23:07	phenny	eternaleye: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
23:12		wallberg left #perl6
23:13	kthakore	sorear: ?? ok ...
23:14	kthakore	I have to head out to a class then
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