Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-12-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 devinus left #perl6
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00:03 ggoebel o/
00:03 masak ggoebel: \o
00:04 ggoebel left #perl6
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00:04 sjohnson oy
00:04 sjohnson oops.. yo*
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00:05 masak it was a dark and net-splitting night...
00:06 sorear masak: let me know if you run into anything excessively annoying.
00:06 masak sorear: oh, I will.
00:06 sorear masak: a little tip from my work on STD - edit-compile-run cycles go much faster if you add augment blocks to the main program instead of changing the modules
00:07 masak nod.
00:07 sorear (my periodic "Merge back" commits are de-monkeytyping of various things)
00:07 masak I've recently adopted that style of development when hacking on the Rakudo setting.
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00:08 sjohnson rakudo: say "piggy".reverse
00:08 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«piggy␤»
00:08 sjohnson rakudo: say scalar reverse "piggy"
00:08 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Could not find sub &scalar␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/HFQdg3ovr7␤»
00:09 masak rakudo: say "piggy".flip
00:09 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«yggip␤»
00:09 sjohnson heh
00:09 sjohnson thats cute
00:09 sjohnson sweeeeeeeeet
00:09 masak sjohnson: I can read your mind, can't I?
00:09 sjohnson perl 6!!!
00:09 * sjohnson yells loudly
00:09 sjohnson you do indeed have a crystal ball programmed in p6
00:09 masak sjohnson: http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/the-taming-of-the-newbie-a-comedy-on-irc
00:11 sjohnson "Perl 6 -- making life worth living, again!"
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00:28 Alias__ What's the syntax for the evalbot?
00:28 Alias__ I need to test some corner cases
00:28 masak rakudo: say "this is my syntax"
00:28 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«this is my syntax␤»
00:28 sorear perl6: my $f = sub ($x) { say "A" }; $f($f = sub ($x) { say "B" });
00:28 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«B␤»
00:28 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«A␤»
00:29 masak sorear: I'm less surprised about Rakudo's behavior.
00:29 sorear also niecza:, alpha:, elf:, yapsi:, mildew:
00:30 masak to me, it makes sense that the (second) assignment is performed before the call binding.
00:30 sorear and nqp:, nqpnet:, perlesque:, std: for the deliberately partial ones
00:30 sorear masak: TimToady has already ruled that both are legal; I was just using it as an example of perl6: where the results differed
00:31 masak right.
00:31 sorear pugs: say $*PERL
00:31 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
00:31 sorear pugs: say $*VERSION
00:31 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
00:31 sorear pugs: say $*OS
00:31 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
00:38 diakopter pugs: say $*PUGS_VERSION
00:38 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Perl6 User's Golfing System, version 6.2.13.15, December 16, 2009␤»
00:38 sorear perl6: say $*PERL; say $*PUGS_VERSION
00:38 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«name    rakudo␤version  2010.10-56-g227feae␤␤»
00:38 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«␤Perl6 User's Golfing System, version 6.2.13.15, December 16, 2009␤»
00:39 sorear ... we've probably scared away Alias__ .  Oops.
00:39 diakopter heh
00:39 diakopter nothing scares him
00:39 masak Alias__ the unscarable.
00:42 sjohnson heh
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00:54 sjohnson Golfing!
01:00 rjbs version FOOORRREEEEEE
01:01 masak rakudo: use v4;
01:01 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
01:01 masak rakudo: use v4; say "fore!"
01:01 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«fore!␤»
01:02 sorear wanted: an IDL for foreign imports, to spec what classes to import and how, for a cross compiler
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01:02 Tene IDL?
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01:03 sorear An interface definition language
01:05 masak sleep &
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01:06 Alias__ rakudo: any(1)
01:06 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
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01:07 Alias__ rakudo: if ( any(1) ) { say "true" }
01:07 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«true␤»
01:07 Alias__ rakudo: if ( any(0) ) { say "true" } else { say "false" }
01:07 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«false␤»
01:07 Alias__ rakudo: if ( any() ) { say "true" } else { say "false" }
01:07 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«false␤»
01:07 Alias__ pugs: if ( any() ) { say "true" } else { say "false" }
01:07 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«false␤»
01:08 Alias__ Is there a dumper? Like the 'x' in the P5 debugger?
01:09 Alias__ rakudo: say any(1)
01:09 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«any(1)␤»
01:09 Alias__ huh...
01:09 Alias__ rakudo: say( any(1) )
01:09 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«any(1)␤»
01:09 sorear rakudo: say any(1).perl
01:09 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«any(1)␤»
01:10 Alias__ rakudo: say any().perl
01:10 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«any()␤»
01:10 Alias__ rakudo: say any().boolean
01:10 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«any()␤»
01:10 sorear rakudo: say any().Bool
01:10 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
01:10 Alias__ ah, there we go
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01:10 Alias__ odd that it's capitalised
01:10 sorear rakudo: say any().nonexistantmethod
01:10 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«any()␤»
01:10 Alias__ But whatever :)
01:11 sorear coercion methods are spelled exactly like the target type
01:11 Alias__ Junctions stringify to the code of themselves?
01:11 sorear rakudo: say True.WHAT.perl
01:11 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool␤»
01:11 sorear I don't think the low-level stringification of junctions has been specced yet
01:11 Alias__ But the booleanification of any() is what I was looking for
01:12 Alias__ List::MoreUtils::any { } () returns undef atm
01:12 Alias__ I'm thinking that should really be false
01:13 Alias__ (I've taken over List::MoreUtils to clean it up a bit)
01:13 sorear YES THANK YOU
01:14 Alias__ Tassilo has finally admitted maintainer defeat
01:14 sorear List::MoreUtils's handling of empty lists is incredibly stupid and has bitten me many times
01:14 Alias__ First I'm just cleaning up the test suite and expanding coverage, and fixing cases where the current implementation doesn't confirm to the current documentation
01:14 Alias__ Then I'll move onto actual changes once that's done
01:15 Alias__ But I see this project as a bit like the DBD::SQLite takeover
01:15 Alias__ I just have to clean up the test suite, get the code packaging and releasing cleanly, and fix the obvious stuff
01:15 Alias__ Then talented people will appear from the air and fix the XS stuff, and I just switch to release manager
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01:24 sjohnson hi
01:31 dalek niecza: 1b6ac44 | sorear++ | lib/SAFE.setting:
01:31 dalek niecza: Remove several direct calls to context methods in setting
01:31 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/1b6ac44657
01:31 dalek niecza: 7998ffb | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
01:31 dalek niecza: Improve code generation for <?foo> and <!foo>
01:31 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/7998ffb2f9
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03:01 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_io_tablet
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03:18 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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03:35 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
03:40 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
03:46 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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06:27 masak good morning, #perl6
06:28 masak lately I've been having an increased awareness of when lichtkind++ is awake. :P
06:32 sorear good * #perl6
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06:41 lue hello sorear o/
06:41 lue hello masak o/
06:41 lue hello world \o/
06:42 masak it's snowing beautifully outside. the sun's not up here yet. it's cold.
06:43 lue it's probably snowing here too. The sun already left.
06:44 sorear it's cold here too.  no snow
06:46 lue oh, I forgot to say hello to arsenic-based life. Hello! o/
06:47 masak that would be the people on reddit. :P
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06:49 lue Wait until it evolves into beings that can live alongside humans. "NEW Vita-mite™® vitamins contain the 100% of the recommended daily value of Arsenic!"
07:02 masak apparently, according to nihiliad++ on Twitter, the life-form isn't "arsenic-based" so much as having replaced phosphorous with arsenic.
07:02 dalek niecza: daad34d | sorear++ | / (4 files):
07:02 dalek niecza: Generate better code for <?before \w>
07:02 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/daad34dd12
07:03 lue [ Yeah, but it's catchier than "having-arsenic-in-its-DNA-instead-of-phosphorus life" :) ]
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07:06 masak "perl6 has really turned it up to 11." -- http://twitter.com/bda_ath_cx/status/10531783657394176
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07:06 lue why does the method  in-timezone  use the * 60 * 60 bit at the end (in the S32::Temporal example)? Is it to make a complete timezone, or...
07:09 masak which example are you referring to?
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07:10 lue my $dt = DateTime.new('2005-02-01T15:00:00+0900'); say $dt.hour; $dt = $dt.in-timezone(6 * 60 * 60); say $dt.hour;
07:12 masak lue: "The :timezone signifies the necessary conversion by returning an integer giving the difference from UTC in seconds."
07:14 lue aaaah.
07:14 sorear odd, two successive runs of STD produced *user* times differing by 1.6%
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07:15 sorear I expect that much variability of the real time
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07:32 lue goodnight o/
07:33 masak 'night, lue.
07:36 moritz_ good morning
07:36 masak :)
07:36 masak morning.
07:37 masak the Oceanians go to bed; the Europeans rise.
07:37 dalek grok: 872ff96 | hinrik++ | MANIFEST.SKIP:
07:37 dalek grok: Don't put README.pod in the release
07:37 dalek grok: review: https://github.com/hinrik/grok/commit/872ff96d6d
07:37 dalek grok: 0e492fd | hinrik++ | / (3 files):
07:37 dalek grok: Update hyperlinks to the Synopses
07:37 dalek grok: review: https://github.com/hinrik/grok/commit/0e492fd8c8
07:37 dalek grok: d44bd65 | hinrik++ | dist.ini:
07:37 dalek grok: Update Prereq section in dist.ini
07:37 dalek grok: review: https://github.com/hinrik/grok/commit/d44bd658ce
07:37 dalek grok: 6628b38 | hinrik++ | Changes:
07:37 dalek grok: v0.23
07:37 dalek grok:
07:37 dalek grok:     - Update hyperlinks to the Synopses
07:37 dalek grok: review: https://github.com/hinrik/grok/commit/6628b3869e
07:37 masak literal++
07:38 moritz_ uhm
07:38 moritz_ did tadzik put a draft for today's advent post anywhere?
07:39 masak in mu, perhaps?
07:39 * moritz_ pulls
07:39 moritz_ yes
07:39 masak \o/
07:40 dalek niecza: 269d6a2 | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
07:40 dalek niecza: Fix excessive slow-path use in get_first
07:40 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/269d6a248c
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07:45 moritz_ http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/day-3-file-operations/
07:46 moritz_ any idea how I can set the author to 'tadzik'?
07:47 masak the paragraph starting "Example usage?" looks mighty weird.
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07:51 moritz_ better now.
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07:52 masak yes.
07:52 masak "For more info please refer to the *documentation*."
07:52 masak is that meant to be emphasis like that, and not (say) a link somewhere?
07:53 masak which documentation are we talking about? the spec?
07:55 * moritz_ makes it a link
07:55 masak moritz_++
07:57 sorear am I expected to write anything for this?
07:58 masak s/expected/encouraged/
08:05 dalek niecza: eebc112 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
08:05 dalek niecza: Run get_first off trampoline
08:05 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/eebc112943
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09:12 moritz_ there was a comment on the advent calendar asking if multi MAIN(Int $x, Str $y) { ... } would work
09:13 moritz_ currently it doesn't
09:13 moritz_ if I remember the spec correctly
09:13 masak which part is the commenter asking about?
09:13 moritz_ I think we need some magic string parsing function
09:13 masak the 'multi' or the 'Int'?
09:13 sorear I think we need a change of perspective
09:13 moritz_ masak: multi dispatch on types
09:14 sorear I've been thinking a lot about defining subset Int of Cool where /^<[+-]>?\d+$/
09:14 masak moritz_: as the spec currently stands (at least by implication), you can't pass in an Int.
09:14 moritz_ masak: correct
09:14 sorear this solves a great deal of issues
09:14 masak I mentioned this in my last spec-grumbling post.
09:14 moritz_ sorear: and creates a huge list of other problems
09:15 masak http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/second-system-syndrome-done-wrong
09:15 sorear moritz_: like what?
09:15 moritz_ sorear: subset types aren't as narrow as nominal types in multi dispatch, for one
09:15 moritz_ sorear: and an Int isn't a string that looks like an Int. An Int is a number.
09:15 sorear How is that a problem?
09:16 moritz_ sorear: it will surprise lots of people who write signatures, and make type based multi dispatch much harder
09:16 moritz_ and I guess it's slow.
09:16 sorear I'd like to see a specific example of a case that my way makes worse.
09:16 sjohnson masak: side question, are you a linux kind of guy?
09:17 moritz_ sorear: multi fac(0) { 1 }; multi fac(Int $x) { $x * fac($x-1) } # stops working
09:17 dalek niecza: 9d06eea | sorear++ | src/ (5 files):
09:17 dalek niecza: Use thunks for parameter default values
09:17 dalek niecza:
09:17 dalek niecza: This is preparation for using an out-of-line binder.
09:17 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/9d06eeabb2
09:18 moritz_ if Int is a subset of cool, this desguars to
09:18 moritz_ multi fac(Cool $x where 0) { 1 }
09:18 moritz_ sorry
09:18 moritz_ multi fac(Cool $x where /^\-?\d+$/ & 0) { 1 }
09:19 moritz_ multi fac(Cool $x where /^\-?\d+$/ ) { $x * fac($x-1) }
09:19 moritz_ which both have the same narrowness
09:19 moritz_ => you're screwed
09:20 masak sjohnson: I've used Linux at times. plan to do it again in the future. right now I'm using mostly Mac OS X.
09:20 sorear nitpick: when constraints are involved, MMD falls back to in-order testing, which makes this work
09:20 sorear but I see the issue
09:20 moritz_ but that's basically Sheer Luck
09:20 sjohnson masak: cool.  i was thinking of giving linux another try someday
09:20 sorear Int as a subset cannot work unless it's made a less constraining subset than 0 in some what
09:21 sorear I need to plant this idea in TimToady, see if he can develop anything from it
09:21 masak sjohnson: I feel we're disturbing Real Perl 6 discussion. privmsg me if you want to keep talking Linux.
09:21 TimToady I plan to go a different direction with ath
09:21 TimToady *that
09:21 moritz_ anyway, I don't like it from a conceptual point either
09:21 sorear the extent to which Perl 6 forces you to care about the difference between strings and numbers bothers me a lot
09:21 moritz_ because forcing a Str representation on Int seems wrong
09:21 TimToady in fact, I plan to unify what happens with <1 2 3> with what happens to command line args
09:22 masak as mentioned before.
09:22 moritz_ TimToady: that was what I was going to propose before sorear++ came up with a different idea :-)
09:22 masak so both get the hybrid solution. :(
09:22 sorear In Perl 5, 1 and "1" are semantically almost identical
09:22 TimToady it's really the same fundamental underlying problem: you are forced to use text to represent a number
09:22 sorear the implementation uses a real number for one
09:23 moritz_ some kind of general mechanism that turns a string into whatever kind of literal it represents
09:23 sorear the case where Perl 5 breaks down is that 1 | 10  !===   "1" | "10"
09:23 moritz_ without going through eval() :-)
09:23 sorear Perl 6 fixes that, but breaks 1 === "1" in every other way
09:23 TimToady not every other way
09:23 mathw But they aren't the same thing
09:24 sorear a hypothetical Perl 5 with +| and ~| would allow you to not care
09:24 TimToady Cool covers most of the issues already
09:24 TimToady the remaining issue of one of MMD, mostly
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09:25 TimToady which Cool would usually solve if people don't specify Str $param, but just $param, or we make some way of Str $param to be looser and recognize ambiguous types from <1 2 3> and such
09:26 sorear right.  I think Str, Int, etc being as tight as they are is the root of the problem
09:26 TimToady that is, the Str type could introduce just a bit of the "everything is a string" flavor back into Perl 6
09:26 sorear Str current has too much of a representationish flair
09:27 TimToady that's the right place to push it, I suspect, not fiddling with numeric subtypes
09:27 TimToady but I'm still thinking about it
09:27 TimToady which is hard at 1:30am :)
09:27 sorear I could stand being making Str alone a subtype.
09:27 sorear 3:30am is when I'm most creative, but I need daybreak to actually understand the ideas :)
09:28 sorear Str alone being a subtype would break (1 ~ 1) ~~ Int.  Which wouldn't be that bad.
09:28 sorear hrm
09:28 moritz_ huh? that's False right now, and would be False then too
09:29 sorear in this model, how does Str differ from Cool?
09:29 TimToady the way the spec currently stands, <1 2 3> makes Ints that can("Str"), but perhaps we can strengthen that so that MMD can see it nominally
09:29 sorear moritz_: it's True in the p5think model, and I don't think it staying True is useful
09:33 moritz_ sorear: in the p5 think, AnyScalar ~~ Int (+maybe warning)
09:36 TimToady what we might want is some mild rewriting of multi (Str $s) -> multi (Cool $s as Str)
09:37 TimToady where an explicit sig with Cool would suppress that rewrite, presumably
09:39 TimToady we'd still presumably want to make sure the dwimmed number/strings do the round-trip without losing their original format, I suspect
09:39 TimToady or you can't have a filename of "1/3"  :)
09:42 * sorear -> sleep
09:45 TimToady EMETOO
09:46 sjohnson heh
09:46 * sjohnson fluffs his pillow
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10:37 flussence regarding the type thing above, I'm wondering whether it would be better if a signature "(Y $x)" meant "$x.can(Y)" instead of "$x ~~ Y".
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10:38 beerpages Erstelle dir deine eigene Umfrage - Beispiel: http://www.beerpages.de/view/2H/Anti-%22Die%20%C3%84rzte%22%20Kampagne
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10:44 flussence with that a strict type check (Foo $x) would become ($x where Foo), ($x where .can('Foo')) becomes (Foo $x), and (Foo $x where .can('Bar')) becomes (Bar $x where Foo). The DWIMmy second one becomes much shorter.
10:46 flussence rakudo: sub t($u where Int) { WHAT($u).say }; t(1); t('1');
10:46 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Int()␤Constraint type check failed for parameter '$u'␤  in 't' at line 1:/tmp/LX8HqDPsU6␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/LX8HqDPsU6␤»
10:50 flussence (on an unrelated topic, my test runs are 100% again and they're a quarter hour faster than before! nice)
10:51 moritz_ flussence: \o/
10:52 flussence there's still 2 hours of room for improvement though ;)
10:53 * moritz_ is well aware of that
10:55 flussence I think the hours of typing saved will make up for that eventually.
10:56 flussence .oO( hardware upgrades are cheap, when the hardware's not made of meat )
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12:58 takadonet morning all
13:01 colomon o/
13:02 moritz_ \o
13:02 moritz_ colomon: are you on schedule for your advent plog post for tomorrow?
13:03 colomon My post is about 66% complete.
13:03 colomon Shouldn't be a big problem finding the time to finish it today.
13:03 moritz_ while we are at it, are there any more volunteers for advent blog posts?
13:04 moritz_ 14 out of 24 slots are still free
13:07 colomon And... hmm... I might save the "big finish" of it and make it a separate post.  That would make finishing tomorrow's post a lot easier and provide another post for later.
13:07 moritz_ wfm
13:09 mathw hmm
13:09 * mathw ponders a suitable subject for a post
13:09 mathw Ideas please!
13:10 moritz_ mathw: have you seen the subject list?
13:11 moritz_ mathw: in mu, misc/perl6advent-2010/topic-brainstorming
13:11 moritz_ mathw: for example X and Z meta operators are a nice topic that hasn't been covered yet
13:12 mathw ooh
13:12 mathw that is a nice topic
13:12 mathw that I actually know some stuff about too
13:14 takadonet http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/efkf8/perl_6_advent_calendar_day_3_file_operations/
13:14 colomon takadonet: are you putting those up on reddit, or is someone else?
13:15 takadonet colomon: i'm
13:15 takadonet need to get as many people exposed to Perl  6 as possible
13:15 mathw yes can I have X and Z metaoperators... let's say on the 6th? then I can write it over the weekend.
13:16 moritz_ mathw: sure, you're in
13:16 flussence er
13:16 flussence in file-operations.pod: s/dirrectory/directory
13:17 mathw \o/
13:17 mathw my account should still all work from last year I assume
13:17 * mathw adds thing to his calendar to remind him
13:17 dalek mu: 9c670f8 | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/schedule:
13:17 dalek mu: [advent] mathw++ volunteers for day 6
13:17 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/9c670f8e53
13:17 moritz_ mathw: should work, zes
13:17 moritz_ s/z/y/
13:19 moritz_ flussence: fixed, thanks
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13:47 mathw moritz_: thanks
14:02 bbkr how to call all matching multi subs in main scope? for multi methods the syntax is $object.*method_name, however for main scope *method_name() is syntax error. is it possible?
14:02 * moritz_ doesn't think so
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14:21 smash joined #perl6
14:21 smash hello everyone
14:21 phenny smash: 10 Nov 20:02Z <patrickas> tell smash colomon++ fixed the prime scripts, it would be great if you can re-run the benchmarks to generate new graphs
14:22 moritz_ hi smash
14:22 smash tell patrickas yes sir, running the scripts right now
14:23 smash phenny: tell patrickas yes sir, running the scripts right now
14:23 phenny smash: I'll pass that on when patrickas is around.
14:24 takadonet smash: tell me when you are done sir :)
14:24 takadonet smash: really want to see the results
14:25 smash takadonet: yes, but it generally takes like 10 hours to run everything
14:26 smash or something like that
14:26 smash but i'll let you know as soon as it finishes
14:30 smash i've been a little off perl6 (overwhelmed with work) what's new in town ?
14:30 * smash git pull
14:34 takadonet been porting over p5 cpan modules over to p6
14:35 takadonet perl 6 advent calendar
14:36 takadonet http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/
14:38 smash nice
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15:17 moritz_ wow, the advent calendar had nearly 2.7k visitors yesterday
15:19 moritz_ even more interesting is that there isn't a single huge source of visitors
15:19 moritz_ reddit being the biggest with about 200 referrals
15:19 moritz_ but the rest seems to be fairly spread out
15:20 takadonet !!
15:20 sftp joined #perl6
15:21 takadonet what were our levels last year?
15:22 moritz_ we had a day with ~7k hits due to slashdot last year
15:23 moritz_ scratch that, 11k views
15:23 wtw left #perl6
15:23 moritz_ 45k visits in Dec 2009
15:23 takadonet I should start posting to slaskdot then...
15:23 takadonet slashdot*
15:23 moritz_ not much chance
15:23 takadonet why?
15:23 moritz_ there was already a /. story about the perl advent calendar
15:24 _twitch left #perl6
15:24 moritz_ http://developers.slashdot.org/story/10/12/01/1419230/Advent-Calendar-For-Geeks
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15:35 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_tablets
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15:40 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_tablets
15:46 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_variable_tablet
15:46 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_io_tablet
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15:51 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_basics_tablet
15:51 lichtkind sorry another change in the geenral ordering
15:52 takadonet lichtkind: np
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15:59 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?best_of_perl_6_tablet
15:59 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_basics_tablet
15:59 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_delta_tablet
15:59 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_cookbook_tablet
15:59 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_lookup_tablet
15:59 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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16:04 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_operator_tablet
16:04 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_regex_tablet
16:04 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_links_tablet
16:04 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_variable_tablet
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16:09 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_io_tablet
16:09 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_oop_tablet
16:10 * masak ponders turning those updates into hourly digests
16:13 daxim karma (Herbert Breunung)
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16:17 lichtkind masak: i said sorry in advance, i hope its the last time i have to change the index
16:17 lichtkind daxim: what to delete the karma :)
16:17 lichtkind want i mean
16:17 daxim what good is ++ if no one is there to track it?
16:18 masak sure; no problem. but even without flooding, more than one such message per hour doesn't really add much, since there are no summaries.
16:18 lichtkind masak: maybe your right
16:20 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_block_tablet
16:20 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_subroutine_tablet
16:23 lichtkind sorear: ping?
16:23 lichtkind daxim: yes but i think it works without braces
16:23 daxim karma daxim
16:23 daxim nope.
16:25 lichtkind karma Herbert Breunung
16:25 lichtkind karma: Herbert Breunung
16:25 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_basics_tablet
16:25 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_intro_tablet
16:27 lichtkind daxim: strange
16:27 lichtkind ok last one and then I keep silence for today :)
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16:29 masak Yacc is dead: http://arxiv.org/abs/1010.5023
16:29 * moritz_ already printed the paper
16:32 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_history_tablet
16:32 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_language_design_tablet
16:33 kst left #perl6
16:33 lichtkind oh i have an ideoa to change it all again, never mind not today :)
16:34 kst joined #perl6
16:35 PerlJam reporting changes to perlfoundataion.org seems a bit of a waste to me.
16:35 PerlJam unless we're just trying to see what lichtkind is doing :)
16:36 lichtkind PerlJam: i found the idea of ourly reports fine
16:36 lichtkind initially i wanted at least some connection to the wiki since there is so low traffic
16:38 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_tablets
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16:45 thundergnat Hi perl6 people.
16:45 hanekomu left #perl6
16:45 takadonet thundergnat: hey
16:46 thundergnat What is the correct syntax to have a private has in a class? I'm either horribly confused or knoking up againsta bug.
16:46 thundergnat *hash
16:47 takadonet thundergnat: thanks for the help on algorithm:diff!
16:47 thundergnat rakudo: class cat { has %!h is rw; method new { %!h{oh} = "hai"; return self; }; method oh ($a) { return $!h{oh}; } }; my $lol = cat.new; say $lol.oh;
16:47 PerlJam thundergnat: class C { has %!hash;  }
16:47 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Type objects are abstract and have no attributes, but you tried to access %!h␤  in 'cat::new' at line 22:/tmp/5pHyo0CB3U␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/5pHyo0CB3U␤»
16:47 thundergnat takadonet: no problem
16:47 thundergnat PerlJam: that's what I thought.. see above
16:47 PerlJam yeah, I'm looking
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16:51 PerlJam oh, I'm blind.
16:51 PerlJam you don't have an instance
16:52 thundergnat Ok, I'm horribly confused.
16:52 takadonet inside the new function, you do not have an instance yet. You need to call bless yourself
16:52 thundergnat oh... duh
16:52 PerlJam takadonet++
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16:55 takadonet thundergnat: are you trying to set a default values for the hash?
16:55 thundergnat rakudo: class cat { has %!h is rw; method new { %!h{oh} = "hai"; return self.bless; }; method oh ($a) { return $!h{$a}; } }; my $lol = cat.new; say $lol.oh;
16:55 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Type objects are abstract and have no attributes, but you tried to access %!h␤  in 'cat::new' at line 22:/tmp/zviERzQ3EV␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/zviERzQ3EV␤»
16:56 thundergnat takadonet: not initially
16:57 thundergnat I'm actually trying to see if I can port the object interface to Algorithm::Diff and am looking to use a hash to hold the various bits of state.
16:59 thundergnat Not having much success though. Mostly because of my poor understanding of perl6 objects I suspect.
17:00 thundergnat I would think I want to use a private hash that is only accessed through internal methods.
17:01 takadonet thundergnat: my knowledge of perl6 object is limited as well
17:02 thundergnat My basic attempts at setting up a class with a private hash and using methods to access it have't come to much though. see above
17:02 wolverian I suspect you want BUILD, not new.
17:03 takadonet wolverian: one issue with BUILD right now is that default values do not get set
17:04 takadonet but i think you would have to use a BUILD to access a private attribute
17:06 thundergnat That sounds like what I might be after. I don't need default values when it is constructed.
17:07 PerlJam thundergnat: what sort of state will be stuck in the hash?  Why use a hash rather than normal has-scoped variables
17:08 thundergnat PerlJam: umm, I'm being somewhat lazy and trying to port over a perl5 object without totally redesigning it.
17:08 takadonet anyone have a link to non paste url?
17:08 thundergnat It currently saves state in an array
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17:09 thundergnat and hsa a host of subs that basically just return insex constants
17:09 thundergnat errr.. inDex
17:10 PerlJam thundergnat: you're suffering false laziness IMHO  :)
17:10 thundergnat PerlJam:  could be  :-/
17:10 takadonet rakudo: class cat { has %!hello is rw; submethod BUILD{  %!hello<oh> ='boo'}; method oh ($a) { return %!hello{$a}; } };my $lol = cat.new; $lol.oh('oh').say;
17:10 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«boo␤»
17:11 takadonet thundergnat:  is that what you want?
17:11 thundergnat takadonet: possibly, looks promising initially.
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17:14 thundergnat takadonet: actually, that looks pretty much exactly what I was trying to acheive. Thanks!
17:16 masak 7 days left to Big Announcement.
17:16 masak exciting!
17:17 takadonet thundergnat: sweet
17:18 takadonet While you hack on algorithm:diff, I will continue on Tree::Simple
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17:19 thundergnat takadonet: I got pretty much the entire procedural interface working with the exception of passing parameters to custom key generators.
17:19 thundergnat Pushed the changes yesterday.
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17:20 takadonet thundergnat++
17:20 takadonet thundergnat: i saw !
17:22 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_basics_tablet
17:22 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_io_tablet
17:22 * PerlJam looks at thundergnat's code
17:23 PerlJam you weren't kidding ... it looks almost exactly like the Perl 5 version
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17:24 thundergnat PerlJam: tongue in cheek? The commented out code IS the perl 5 varsion.
17:25 takadonet PerlJam: I originally just did a straight up line for line so I can get it to work.
17:25 PerlJam thundergnat: I see that now that I've gotten down that far in my skimming.
17:25 PerlJam well kudos to both of you!
17:25 PerlJam takadonet++ thundergnat++
17:25 thundergnat Thanks, later
17:26 thundergnat I got to get back to $work
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17:42 dalek roast: 9c5f904 | (Kodi Arfer)++ | S32-temporal/ (2 files):
17:42 dalek roast: Added tests for DateTime.perl.
17:42 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9c5f90491a
17:43 dalek rakudo: 878659f | KodiB++ | src/core/Temporal.pm:
17:43 dalek rakudo: [Temporal] Ensured .perl works for DateTimes with saved offsets.
17:43 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/878659f769
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17:58 masak Kodi++ # seemingly Temprally indefatiguable
18:02 bbkr rakudo: "/etc/services".IO.WHAT.say # bug?
18:02 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
18:02 jnthn o/ #perl6
18:03 masak bbkr: looks like the usual "error during &say call gets lost somewhere" bug.
18:03 masak jnthn! \o/
18:03 jnthn masak! \o/
18:04 flussence that code gives me a ===SORRY!=== locally
18:04 flussence I've noticed the evalbot doesn't show those...
18:04 jnthn rakudo: say IO
18:04 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«IO()␤»
18:04 jnthn rakudo: say IO.WHAT
18:04 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«IO()␤»
18:04 jnthn rakudo: say IO.WHAT.say
18:04 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
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18:57 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_variable_tablet
18:57 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_basics_tablet
18:57 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_io_tablet
19:07 dalek 6model: e405f5a | diakopter++ | / (2 files):
19:07 dalek 6model: [dotnet] implement greedy quantifiers in regexes
19:07 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/e405f5a69b
19:12 lichtkind jnthn: zdravičko
19:13 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
19:19 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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19:25 sorear good * #perl6
19:26 masak \o
19:27 sorear lichtkind: pong
19:27 lichtkind ahh
19:27 lichtkind great
19:28 lichtkind sorear: could you dimm the amount of messages about tpf wiki down
19:28 lichtkind due suckiness of some wikisyntac i have to sametimes change all pages
19:28 lichtkind which results in spam
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19:30 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
19:33 masak nom &
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20:21 jnthn Dobry vecer, lichtkind. :-)
20:22 lichtkind ahoj
20:22 jnthn Mas sneh? :)
20:24 daxim сне сне сне
20:24 daxim left #perl6
20:26 jnthn Was the сне getting heavy on his internet cables? :)
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21:27 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_tablets
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21:43 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_tablets
21:52 colomon rakudo: 0, 1, -> $a, $b { $a + $b } ... -> $a, $b { $a + $b > 10000 }
21:52 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
21:52 colomon locally that's
21:52 colomon ===SORRY!===
21:52 colomon Limit arity cannot be larger than 1
21:53 colomon is that correct by spec, or just a Rakudo limitation?
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22:22 dalek 6model: d59b47f | jonathan++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
22:22 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Generalize box_int/box_str to a general box sub that takes an argument. Will make some upcoming opset change bits easier. Also avoid calling dnst_for on something already in DNST.
22:22 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/d59b47f082
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22:33 colomon Those of you with permission on the advent blog and time, please take a look at http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/?p=456&amp;preview=true
22:33 colomon I intend to do another round of editing if I have time, but suggestions for improvement would be very welcome.
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22:45 dalek 6model: 4d392d5 | jonathan++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
22:45 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Make unbox_str just unbox, and the place that needs a temp too now is explicit about that.
22:45 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/4d392d589a
22:45 dalek 6model: ac7f473 | jonathan++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
22:45 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Generalize unbox_str into a generic unbox taking an array.
22:45 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/ac7f473cb9
22:48 jnthn wtf...taking a type. Not an array.
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22:52 dalek 6model: d14ea75 | jonathan++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
22:52 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Kill unbox_int in favor of the generic unbox, and add temp_int in a couple of places where it was needed.
22:52 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/d14ea7520a
23:03 sorear good * #perl6
23:03 sorear \o/ jnthn!
23:07 jnthn sorear: o/ :)
23:07 * jnthn has time AND mental capacity to commit again :)
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23:13 sorear jnthn: suppose you want to access System.Console in mscorlib from Perl6.  What use statement will you write?
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23:16 sjohnson hi!
23:16 jnthn use System:from<dotnet>; I guess
23:16 jnthn Oh, wait...
23:17 jnthn use System::Console:from<dotnet>; # maybe...
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23:17 jnthn Yeah, that's a class
23:19 jnthn So I guess the latter.
23:19 sorear Why does it being a class matter?
23:19 jnthn sorear: I dunno what I was thinking before... :)
23:20 jnthn System is just a namespace though so...guess it's more machinary to import all the stuff it wants to export.
23:20 jnthn But do-able too I guess.
23:20 diakopter I say   :from<cts>  or  :from<clr>
23:20 jnthn I imagine most would work.
23:20 jnthn er
23:20 jnthn both
23:20 jnthn Just the first would get you a bunch more things imported.
23:21 jnthn not cts
23:21 diakopter well, namespaces are spread out across tons of assemblies
23:21 jnthn clr maybe though :)
23:21 jnthn diakopter: Yeah...true.
23:21 jnthn That makes things...tricky to know what file we want.
23:21 diakopter since those are compile-time resolved
23:22 jnthn *nod*
23:22 diakopter it really should be by assembly name, or assembly+namespace
23:22 diakopter or assembly+class
23:22 diakopter (all three options)
23:22 dalek 6model: 14268c6 | jonathan++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
23:22 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Eliminate a use of directly calling unbox_str in favor of the unbox sub.
23:22 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/14268c6708
23:23 dalek 6model: 06ce121 | diakopter++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
23:23 dalek 6model: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:jnthn/6model
23:23 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/06ce121137
23:24 diakopter blast; it missed/masked its other commit
23:24 diakopter its other parent commit
23:24 jnthn wtf. :/
23:24 diakopter maybe that dalek plugin could be taught to recognize such diakopter-- screwups
23:24 jnthn diakopter: Oddly, it looks fine in the github commit log.
23:24 s0v left #perl6
23:25 diakopter oh, weird.
23:25 diakopter ok, that's it, time to upgrade TortoiseGit
23:26 jnthn diakopter: fwiw, a friend recently talked highly of http://code.google.com/p/gitextensions/ in comparrison to TortoiseGit.
23:33 Tene "Git Extensions is the only graphical user interface for Git that allows you control Git without using the commandline. It comes with a manual and video tutorials to get you started quickly." -- really?  the only one?
23:33 jnthn OH RLY?
23:34 jnthn Tene: Yeah, I thought that was rather over-stepping the mark-etting.
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23:34 y3llow is now known as y3llow_
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23:35 Tene Either they're ignorant of the alternatives, in which case I wouldn't trust them to be well-enough-informed to trust their software, or they're just... lying?  I'm not sure why?
23:35 dalek 6model: a5559d5 | jonathan++ | dotnet/compiler/PAST2DNSTCompiler.pm:
23:35 dalek 6model: [dotnet] Eliminate some explcit unbox_int calls in favor of the unbox sub. Less code...yay.
23:35 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/a5559d5e47
23:35 Tene Or I guess they could have some much-more-specific meaning in mind, in which case it's just poor communication, i guess.
23:36 y3llow is now known as y3llow_
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23:41 diakopter std: /(?:a)/
23:41 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Quantifier quantifies nothing at /tmp/USvWlnybA_ line 1:␤------> [32m/(?:[33m⏏[31ma)/[0m␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
23:41 diakopter that error message could be splendified
23:43 sorear What I don't want to do is to qx{ monop ... } in the compiler
23:43 sorear at least, not in the short term
23:43 sorear once the compiler itself is running on the CLR, I can reflect all I want
23:44 jnthn TimToady: I can't find <?[{]> style things documented in S05.
23:45 jnthn TimToady: Is it just falling out of <? being lookahead and [...] as a char class?
23:45 sorear Yes
23:45 jnthn OK, thanks.
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