Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-12-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:25 jasonmay rakudo: [<] 'almost'.comb().map(*.ord)
01:25 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
01:25 jasonmay rakudo: say([<] 'almost'.comb().map(*.ord))
01:25 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
01:27 jasonmay is the object system metacircular?
01:27 jasonmay if so, how can I get the methods of the meta?
01:30 diakopter rakudo: say [>] 'almost'.flip.comb.map(*.ord)
01:30 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
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01:53 colomon metacircular?
01:55 lue ohai o/
01:56 colomon \o
01:56 lue what exactly is the difference between an Instant and a DateTime object, besides the name?
01:57 jasonmay colomon: meta having a meta, etc
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01:57 jasonmay attributes having a meta, with attributes that have their own attributes, and so on
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01:57 Tene jasonmay: You get their methods the same way you get the methods for anything else.
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02:00 jasonmay is ClassHOW the metaclass?
02:00 jasonmay rakudo: ClassHOW.^methods
02:00 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Method 'methods' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/VuGrZwU2sC␤»
02:01 flussence lue: Instant is meant to be a calendar-agnostic opaque type for making Durations with, DateTime is the sugar-coated alternative
02:01 flussence sort of like a UUID compared to a username, or something.
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02:20 lue So, Instant displays in whatever current calendar, while DateTime, unmodified, is just Gregorian?
02:38 TimToady Instant has no representation by itself
02:42 TimToady if you try to display an Instant, it should reformat your hard drive
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02:44 lue rakudo: say DateTime.new("1963-11-23T17:15:00Z").Instant
02:44 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Instant:1963-11-23T17:15:0.000000Z␤»
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03:50 wars haw-haw!
03:52 wars perl6中文频道 #perl6-cn
03:53 wars 欢迎大家加入
04:06 wars 大家 都在干什么啊?
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05:03 lue rakudo: my @a = [1,2,3], [4,5,6], [7,8,9]; my @b = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6], [7,8,9] ]; say @a.perl; say @b.perl;
05:03 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«[[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]]␤[[[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9]]]␤»
05:04 lue hm, @b.perl comes out [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9] on my system. (I'd put http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&amp;search=brackets, w/o the space between, but I think that still causes the auto-wikipedia linking)
05:04 lue o hey, it does still do that!
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05:09 lue nevermind, I found my problem.
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05:16 lue S32::Temporal doesn't seem to explain what an Instant or Duration is. Could it be somewhere else in the spec?
05:17 lue (the names are self-explanitory, but there are no details as to their methods, what they're for, etc.)
05:19 TimToady grep is your friend
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05:22 adu rakudo: kthxbai!
05:22 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "kthxbai!"␤»
05:22 adu :/
05:22 lue .oO(although ack is a friend that already knows some things about you)
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05:29 allbery_b "bad touch!"
05:29 allbery_b (yes, I knowabout ack.  I keep wanting to hack syntax support into it)
05:35 lue .oO( Some days I wonder if there's such a thing as "Temporal Science", and if I could major in it :) )
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05:44 allbery_b .oO { gallifrey is over there somewhere ----> }
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06:33 sorear good * #perl6
06:36 sorear jasonmay: ClassHOW.^methods is supposed to work, but it still has a couple issues in Rakudo
06:36 sorear so I guess "yes"
06:36 sorear nqpnet: say(1.HOW)
06:36 p6eval nqpnet: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
06:37 sorear nqpnet: say(1.HOW.WHAT)
06:37 p6eval nqpnet: OUTPUT«XBuild Engine Version 2.6.7.0␤Mono, Version 2.6.7.0␤Copyright (C) Marek Sieradzki 2005-2008, Novell 2008-2009.␤␤Build started 12/10/2010 6:37:06 AM.␤__________________________________________________␤Project "/home/p6eval/6model/dotnet/runtime/Rakudo.Net.csproj" (default target(s))…
06:37 sorear jnthn: I brokes it
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06:55 jasonmay sorear: sweet!
06:56 sorear "nqpnet" is part of jnthn's project to rewrite the object system
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07:52 Shozan hm
07:52 moritz_ good morning
07:52 Shozan morning
07:56 sjohnson hi
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07:58 sorear good morning moritz_, Shozan
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08:11 Shozan does this rakudo thing have any kind of project plan or anything?
08:11 sorear I guess docs/ROADMAP
08:12 Shozan mm ok
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08:16 Shozan and that is still up to date?
08:17 moritz_ I think so, yes
08:24 Shozan i'm just trying to navigate and get a sense of how you work :)
08:24 moritz_ one bit at a time :-)
08:24 Shozan ye..
08:25 Shozan i might be interested in helping you out, you see
08:25 moritz_ that would be awesome
08:28 moritz_ I have to leave now, I'll be back in ~0.5 hours (unless the traffic jams)
08:29 Shozan hf
08:32 sorear IMPLEMENTOR'S RULING: := is to be seen as a low level operation, which other parts of the system can use.  Since other forms of aliasing may be built upon :=, explicit use of := is allowed (but not required) to break aliasing set up by any other language feature, for instance, imports
08:32 sorear If there are any cases where aliases need to be transparent to :=, I'd be interested to hear them
08:33 sorear Shozan: welcome!
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08:47 daxim *that* blog entry was masak's big friday surprise?  I feel slightly let down
08:49 Shozan sorear, thanks
08:50 Shozan daxim: which blog entry was that?
08:50 Shozan best november?
08:50 daxim yes
08:50 Shozan but it was posted yesterday ;)
09:01 moritz_ daxim: I don't think so
09:02 tadzik masak wouldn't have resisted to say "Look, that was the big announcement!"
09:02 daxim we shall wait, then
09:03 moritz_ the day still has 14 hours, in CET
09:03 daxim meanwhile:  $cookie for @everyone
09:03 * moritz_ takes one. Thanks
09:03 tadzik oh, is there an occasion?
09:04 moritz_ there's always an occasion :-)
09:05 * tadzik still has some candies from his birthday, passes the box to everyone
09:05 sorear it's exactly 1 month after my birthday.  that's gotta count for something
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09:07 moritz_ it's a fortnight 'til christmas
09:15 moritz_ http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2010/Dec-09-1.html # it's amazing what the mono developers have been up to
09:16 sorear I've been using 2.9
09:16 sorear there's a 2.9-only bugfix that cuts 20 minutes off the time needed to run roast with niecza STD :)
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10:39 * sorear out
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11:33 mary_se7en helo, I was here few months ago and asked about turning a perl6 app to single executable, there was 2 small notes I will  need to build a shared libparrot with dynamic loading and that I can only run the Perl 6 binary from the root directory of a Parrot checkout.. I wonder if there is any update.. I since I need to create an executable that will be used on large number of PCs... thanks all ^_^
11:34 moritz_ mary_se7en: you can run it from anywhere if rakudo is properlz installed
11:34 moritz_ lunch&
11:36 mary_se7en so I need to manually install rakudo on every PC right?
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12:02 smash hello everyone
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12:51 masak greetings gentlemen.
12:51 masak are you ready?
12:52 tadzik go!
12:52 masak ok.
12:52 masak here comes...
12:52 masak ...the big announcement.
12:52 masak *drum roll*
12:52 masak http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/masaks-perl-6-coding-contest
12:53 moritz_ glad you rolled the drum, not the eyes :-)
12:54 tadzik wow wow
12:55 masak this, ladies and gents, was the big announcement.
12:55 takadonet looks like I got here just in time!
12:55 moritz_ so, if there are multiple valid submissions, who will win?
12:55 masak moritz_: see WINNING.
12:55 masak http://strangelyconsistent.org/p6cc2010/WINNING
12:56 * moritz_ sees
12:56 takadonet http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ejiju/perl_6_coding_contest/
12:56 masak \o/ takadonet++
12:57 takadonet vote it up!
12:58 takadonet wow already a downvote :(
12:58 masak those trolls are quick... :)
12:59 moritz_ masak: your webserver doesn't send a charset header along with text documents
12:59 moritz_ masak: it should, though
12:59 masak moritz_: agreed. any way I can make it do that?
13:00 moritz_ masak: if you webserver doesn't suck: yes
13:00 masak frankly I don't know whether it sucks or not.
13:00 masak I suspect it doesn't and that the bottleneck is in masak, not the webserver. :)
13:00 moritz_ and I can't know either, unless you tell me which one it is
13:01 moritz_ for files with extensions, in apache you can do something like   AddType 'text/plain; charset=utf-8' txt
13:01 masak I believe it's an Apache server, yes.
13:02 moritz_ or just AddDefaultCharset UTF-8
13:02 masak that sounds like what I want.
13:03 masak can this go into my .htaccess file?
13:04 moritz_ the AddT
13:04 moritz_ sorry
13:04 moritz_ yes, it can
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13:05 masak excellent.
13:06 masak better now?
13:07 moritz_ it is indeed
13:07 moritz_ if you want to debug such things, I can highly recommend  wget -S $url
13:07 masak noted. thanks.
13:08 moritz_ problem 3... I don't quite understand what you write
13:09 moritz_ from the example it's clear that all range specs must must match the number
13:09 moritz_ ie if the first range includes it, and the second range excludes it, the number is not in the ranges
13:09 masak right.
13:09 moritz_ why is it then important that ranges are evaluated from left to right?
13:10 masak a third (or fourth...) range might include it again.
13:11 masak in essence, the inclusions are unions and the exclusions are set differences.
13:11 moritz_ so +[1 .. 5] +[1..6] would not include 6
13:11 moritz_ and neither would +[1..6] +[1..5]
13:11 moritz_ correct?
13:11 masak both would be identical to just +[1..6]
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13:12 * moritz_ tries to come up with an example where the order matters
13:12 masak +[1..5] -[2..4]
13:12 masak vs -[2..3] +[1..5]
13:13 masak er, -[2..4]
13:13 moritz_ the first would include 1 and 5
13:13 moritz_ ... and the second?
13:13 masak the second all of 1,2,3,4,5
13:14 masak since the exclusion operates on nothing.
13:14 moritz_ [x] click
13:14 masak :)
13:14 masak "Before any inclusions/exclusions have been made, all integers are excluded."
13:16 * moritz_ wonders if the test can be made without constructing the full included subset
13:16 moritz_ he, I think it's possible
13:16 masak :)
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13:17 moritz_ once you understood the problem, parsing is likely the bigger problem :-)
13:17 masak I didn't really institute a policy about silence...
13:17 masak let's just say that if you plan to be a contestant, it's in your best interest not to discuss solutions. :)
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13:17 * moritz_ didn't tell *how* to do the test
13:17 masak I'll happily discuss all of them in five weeks, though. :)
13:18 hdanak masak: what does the +[1..5] -[2..4] syntax do? the REPL returns the difference in sizes of sets...
13:18 masak right now, the best way to make me happy is to email me your Amazon wishlists :D
13:19 moritz_ hdanak: it's not Perl 6 syntax. see http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/masaks-perl-6-coding-contest
13:19 masak hdanak: as Perl 6, it means something different than in my problem.
13:19 hdanak ok i see
13:19 masak hdanak: as Perl 6, the arrays get numified as their lengths.
13:19 masak something I did not at all consider :)
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13:22 hdanak can ranges be decreasing?
13:23 moritz_ no
13:23 moritz_ only sequences can
13:23 smash masak++ # coding contest
13:24 moritz_ indeed, masak++
13:24 masak thanks :) remember to upvote on proggit too :)
13:24 masak http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ejiju/perl_6_coding_contest/
13:24 moritz_ nice christmas present :-)
13:24 masak good luck, everyone
13:24 moritz_ woa, 3 downvotes
13:24 * moritz_ wonders why redditers are that hateful
13:25 masak surely there are more love-ful #perl6ers, though :)
13:25 hdanak will perl6 have coroutines?
13:26 masak hdanak: yes.
13:26 masak hdanak: they're called 'gather/take'
13:26 hdanak oh really
13:26 moritz_ and no need to use the future tense
13:26 masak ya rly
13:26 moritz_ they are implemented already
13:26 hdanak i thought gather/take was for lazy list comprehensions
13:26 moritz_ the two are not mutually exclusive
13:27 hdanak but i meant something like Perl6::Coro
13:27 masak laziness and coroutines are built on the same principle: delayed evaluation.
13:27 moritz_ gather { a; take; b } runs a(), and b() when the list is consumed
13:27 masak hdanak: I imagine something like that will be a module in Perl 6, too.
13:28 oha masak++
13:29 masak you're appreciation makes me hopeful I'll see many contestants. may the best p6er win!
13:30 moritz_ masak: in p5, by "fast solution" do you mean an asymptotically fast algorithm, or one that actually runs fast on today's rakudo?
13:30 masak the former.
13:30 moritz_ ok
13:31 masak I basically mean something that wouldn't be rotten on long strings even on a fast Perl 6 implementation.
13:34 * moritz_ just looked of all the problems
13:34 moritz_ p1: interesting
13:35 moritz_ p2: meh. (not really interesting algorithm, but ugly implementation)
13:35 moritz_ p3: nice, probably not too hard
13:35 moritz_ p4: need more thinking to figure out how hard it will be, which makes it interesting :-)
13:36 moritz_ p5: a solved problem, which could be fun to implement
13:36 hdanak something tells me that using perl5 threads on a robot is a bad idea...
13:36 moritz_ depends on the robot :-)
13:37 hdanak trying to do computer vision stuff in the background while looping through sensors and AI stuff in multiple perl5 threads, but i'm not sure what kind of performance hit it will take
13:37 moritz_ if it's just for a game that runs on the inside of the huge fighting robot, go right ahead :-)
13:37 masak moritz_: an interesting review. :) you might be right about p2, but I also believe I'll receive a lot of variety there.
13:37 hdanak masak: p2 seems interesting
13:38 moritz_ heh :-)
13:38 hdanak in that you can solve it using math
13:38 hdanak or you can bash it with algorithms
13:38 hdanak or a mix of both
13:38 moritz_ masak: there is some challenge to making a solution to such a problem nicely readable though
13:38 masak moritz_: yes. and fast.
13:39 hdanak moritz_: well, i'm thinking along the lines of concentric circles, and an edge case if the point lies in between
13:39 moritz_ masak: did you solve all problems already?
13:39 colomon masak++ !!!!
13:39 masak moritz_: yes.
13:39 * colomon implemented p2 months ago....
13:39 masak moritz_: for me, they take about 2 hours each.
13:40 moritz_ masak: I think you just killed my weekend :-)
13:40 masak :D
13:40 masak but I figured since people might have to learn about Perl 6, Rakudo and the problems, I'll give people a week for each problem.
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13:43 hdanak does parrot actually support python and ruby right now, or is it just a mere possibility?
13:44 moritz_ hdanak: the compilers for both are very immature, and not at all feature complete
13:45 moritz_ ie not at the point where you can take an arbitrary library written in that language, and run it
13:46 hdanak hmm
13:47 hdanak well, i still need to learn ruby though... but i severely dislike python
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13:47 takadonet thundergnat: hello sir
13:48 thundergnat Hi takadonet et all
13:48 masak hi thundergnat!
13:48 thundergnat masak: programming contest! ooo!
13:48 masak \o/
13:49 * masak suddenly feels he hasn't over-hyped the Big Announcement too much after all :)
13:50 moritz_ currently most of the books on my wishlist aren't even published yet
13:50 thundergnat #5)  neutro Algorithm-Diff - use Algorithm::Diff; my $lcs = LCS($string1, $string2); # Heh
13:50 moritz_ :-)
13:51 masak heh :)
13:54 thundergnat BTW, in S29 under Conversions, .flat is entered twice. I could edit myself but I wanted to check that it was actually extreaneous and I'm not just missing some context.
13:54 masak thundergnat: it looks like a thinko.
13:59 dalek specs: 493684e | thundergnat++ | S29-functions.pod:
13:59 dalek specs: Removed redundant second entry for .flat
13:59 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/493684ecee
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14:02 thundergnat Also, while I'm questioning things, Is the err operator depricated or NYI? It exists in Grammer.pm but isn't mentioned in S03.
14:02 moritz_ std: 1 err 2
14:02 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/XnbgCy79hj line 1:␤------> [32m1 [33m⏏[31merr 2[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     bracketed infix␤        infix or meta-infix␤    statement modifier loop␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
14:02 thundergnat rakudo: say 3 err 5
14:02 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«3␤»
14:03 masak I think 'err' mutated into 'orelse'.
14:03 masak but I might misremember.
14:03 moritz_ if it's not in the specs, and not in STD, it shouldn't exist
14:04 thundergnat https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/master/src/Perl6/Grammar.pm#L1974 should probably go away then.
14:09 arnsholt masak: For problem 1, should we consider permutations of the order of the matrices, or only bracketings of neighbouring matrixes/brackets?
14:09 masak the latter.
14:09 moritz_ arnsholt: matrix multiplication isn't commutative
14:09 moritz_ so you can't just permute multiplications
14:09 masak no, not in general.
14:10 arnsholt moritz_: I know, but for some inputss there might be permutations that are better
14:10 arnsholt Which is why I wondered. Especially because enumerating all those permutations would make any hope of an efficient algorithm evaporate =)
14:11 masak arnsholt: even when the dimensions permit a reordering of the matrices, you'd be changing the original multiplication in a way that is likely not desired.
14:11 arnsholt True, true
14:11 arnsholt An excellent point, in fact
14:12 arnsholt Just goes to show that I don't know enough maths =)
14:12 moritz_ that's what I meant with "not commutative" :-)
14:13 arnsholt I have what I think is an interesting way to look at it as well =)
14:13 masak remember that just by signing up for the contest, you make the chance of winning 100 EUR worth of books non-zero.
14:15 moritz_ you mean if there only sign ups without valid submissions :-)
14:17 masak right :)
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15:06 pmichaud masak++ # big announcement
15:06 phenny pmichaud: 25 Nov 14:19Z <tadzik> tell pmichaud how didn't neutro build for Star, what was the reason?
15:06 phenny pmichaud: 26 Nov 19:16Z <tadzik> tell pmichaud may I get the access to perl 6 RT? I found like 10 bugs today which are alredy working and can be closed
15:06 masak \o/
15:07 pmichaud 100€ can buy a lot of kindle books :)
15:07 pmichaud am I somehow disqualified from entering?
15:07 masak pmichaud: no, that's why I denied you prior knowledge the other day. :)
15:07 pmichaud aha
15:07 masak feel free to sign up.
15:07 pmichaud is TimToady++ likely to enter?  ;-)
15:07 masak I was wondering that too :)
15:08 uniejo joined #perl6
15:08 masak that would be... interesting.
15:08 moritz_ it would be indeed
15:09 flatwhatson left #perl6
15:10 pmichaud hmmm, I've already solved #3 on paper (for handling character classes in nqp)
15:10 masak *nod*
15:10 moritz_ inversion lists!
15:10 masak (dang) :)
15:10 * moritz_ cackles evily
15:11 masak don't tell anyone, OK? :)
15:11 moritz_ but actually inversion lists are not the easiest solution for this one
15:11 masak no?
15:12 moritz_ no
15:13 takadonet pmichaud: how were your holiday's?
15:13 pmichaud overall they were really good
15:14 takadonet good to hear
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15:22 dalek mu: ee1a853 | duff++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/articles/feed.pod:
15:22 dalek mu: Start on day 10 article
15:22 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/ee1a853a5b
15:22 tzhs left #perl6
15:22 PerlJam okay, I started on my day 10 advent post last night, but I fell asleep.
15:22 PerlJam Review what I have so far if you please  (see above)
15:22 * masak reviews
15:23 masak PerlJam: "...the data feeds from one operation to the next."
15:24 masak shouldn't that be "from one operation to the previous"? :)
15:24 PerlJam don't make me second guess my prose too much or I'll spend all day futzing with it  :)
15:25 masak just pointing out that "the next" operator might as well be read as "the one to the right", which wasn't what you intended.
15:25 moritz_ then just say "to the left" instead of "next"
15:25 masak also, it'd be nice if it was a bit clearer that Perl 6 doesn't force the use of piping operators, just so we don't give any diehard Perl 5 users an unnecessary heart attack :)
15:25 PerlJam aye, already changing it
15:26 masak as in "would be written" -> "could be written", for example.
15:28 masak actually, I think I'd prefer to have both the functional and then methodological variants in there, just to show that they're still possible. (and that they also promote one reading direction each)
15:28 redicaps left #perl6
15:28 PerlJam masak: yep, adding a note and such an example now  :)
15:28 PerlJam also, fyi, I was going to end the post with some real, working examples
15:28 masak \o/
15:29 Trashlord hey dudes
15:29 masak Trashlord! \o/
15:29 Trashlord how's it going
15:29 masak splendid. and you?
15:30 * PerlJam obtains some Dr Pepper for continued writing
15:30 Trashlord same, just a slight headache, meh
15:30 masak huh. 9 upvotes, 9 downvotes on http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ejiju/perl_6_coding_contest/
15:31 masak on average, Reddit is completely neutral to the idea of a Perl 6 Coding Contest. :P
15:31 awwaiid masak: I suggest making the WINNING details more prominent, or summarizing it on the front page or something. It's not immediately obvious how it is a 'contest' until I started reading that
15:32 masak awwaiid: good idea. I'll make it more prominent.
15:32 jaldhar left #perl6
15:33 PerlJam masak: btw, your "big announcement" was an *excellent* idea. (in case you weren't sure  ;)
15:33 masak thanks :)
15:33 masak it sure seems to have struck the right note here ;)
15:38 Patterner left #perl6
15:43 moritz_ http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=876467 # I did some advertising for the contest
15:44 masak moritz_++
15:44 masak awwaiid: better? http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/masaks-perl-6-coding-contest
15:45 PerlJam and an anonymonk already critiqued that the problems are mathematically bent.
15:45 moritz_ just commented really, I didn't read that as critic
15:45 PerlJam eh maybe
15:46 masak same here.
15:46 masak I'm thinking of replying.
15:48 hercynium joined #perl6
15:49 Psyche^ joined #perl6
15:49 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
15:50 * PerlJam is getting slowly sucked into too much reading with reddit, perlmonks, email, twitter, etc.  :(
15:52 plainhao joined #perl6
15:54 * [particle] thinks perljam needs a text to speech app to read all these aloud
15:54 PerlJam [particle]: but then I'll have a conflict with my currently playing music
15:56 [particle] i think a popular phone app that reads every tweet aloud as it is received would be great for society
15:58 awwaiid masak -- better. As a contestent it's a bit hard to know how I should trust you though -- maybe this is all a rouse and you're going to give the 100 to your friend or something :) . But that is the nature of a single-sponsor contest I supose
15:58 thundergnat left #perl6
15:58 masak awwaiid: yes.
15:58 masak awwaiid: if it's any consolation, I plan to publish everyone's submissions after the contest.
15:58 awwaiid well _I_ trust you just fine :)
15:59 PerlJam awwaiid: I'm still going to play even knowing that masak may just keep the money  :)
15:59 awwaiid hehe
15:59 masak I promise I will do my utmost to buy someone 100 EUR worth of books. you have my word. :)
16:00 masak I hope all my contestants will keep their end of the deal by being brilliant in unambiguous ways.
16:00 [particle] will you make the book list public, too? ;)
16:00 oha [particle]: eheh :)
16:00 masak [particle]: that's at the discretion of the winner.
16:00 colomon oh no, better take those romance novels off my wish list!  ;)
16:01 masak colomon: thought you were going to say "Python books" :)
16:01 colomon oh heavens, no, I'd never put a Python book on my wish list!!
16:02 [particle] you buy those cash, and bring a paper bag.
16:02 nancy joined #perl6
16:02 awwaiid (masak: minor nit, you might remove some \n's from your <pre> list of criteria)
16:02 nancy is now known as Guest95728
16:03 masak awwaiid: I considered that. now I will :)
16:03 Guest95728 rakudo: doubles = [ c *2 for c in 'perl']
16:03 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "doubles = "␤»
16:04 masak rakudo: say $_ * 2 for 'perl'.comb>>.ord
16:04 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«224␤202␤228␤216␤»
16:05 masak rakudo: my @soubles = ($_ * 2 for 'perl'.comb>>.ord); say @doubles.perl
16:05 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '@doubles' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/WGGwBCe0Ak:22)␤»
16:05 masak rakudo: my @doubles = ($_ * 2 for 'perl'.comb>>.ord); say @doubles.perl
16:05 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«[224, 202, 228, 216]␤»
16:05 masak \o/
16:05 Guest95728 masak: :)))
16:05 masak rakudo++
16:06 masak Guest95728: Python background?
16:06 Guest95728 masak: yup :/
16:06 * masak hugs Guest95728
16:07 Guest95728 masak: moving slowlllly to perl6 :D
16:08 masak awwaiid: better, yes? http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/masaks-perl-6-coding-contest
16:09 masak Guest95728: no worries. even though you write with a heavy Python accent, I understood what you wanted. :)
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16:14 awwaiid masak: yes
16:15 masak \o/
16:15 masak awwaiid++ # tiny, but important, nits
16:16 _kaare left #perl6
16:16 uasi joined #perl6
16:16 uasi hi
16:16 uasi std: [ { say 'hi' } ]>>.()
16:16 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
16:16 uasi rakudo: [ { say 'hi' } ]>>.()
16:16 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Tried to find null name␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/h1pXG_t5IT␤»
16:17 Guest95728 rakudo: L+1 for L in [1,2,3]
16:17 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Could not find sub &in␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/X_NrIw1pWu␤»
16:17 Guest95728 rakudo: [L+1 for L in [1,2,3]]
16:17 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Could not find sub &in␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/WEpfxZEcFw␤»
16:17 awwaiid man... I added a comment to the contest link on reddit and now reddit has given me a 5-year-club prize. Time flies.
16:18 Guest95728 rakudo: $L+=1 for $L in {1,2,3}
16:18 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "$L+=1 for "␤»
16:18 uasi rakudo: [ { say 'hi' } ]>>()
16:18 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Tried to find null name␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/vanzAwZaKd␤»
16:19 uasi found that bug while solving the problem 3
16:20 Guest95728 left #perl6
16:20 TimToady rakudo: say ~ ord "perl"
16:20 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«112 101 114 108␤»
16:21 TimToady masak: ^^ don't need .comb»
16:21 masak TimToady: good to know.
16:21 TimToady well, maybe, unless we decide that's a bad idea
16:21 masak uasi: that's a known bug, I think.
16:22 TimToady rakudo: say +ord "perl"
16:22 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«4␤»
16:22 masak uasi: diakopter found it a few months ago.
16:22 TimToady that seems wrongish
16:22 uasi ah
16:22 masak rakudo: my @a = 1,2,3; @a>>++; say @a.perl
16:22 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«[2, 3, 4]␤»
16:22 masak Guest96690: ^^
16:23 masak nom &
16:23 masak left #perl6
16:24 TimToady rakudo: say chr(112, 101, 114, 108)
16:24 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 4 but expected 1␤  in 'chr' at line 3304:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/nD1V6IWQ2g␤»
16:25 TimToady and not the inverse of chr as it stands
16:25 TimToady rakudo: say chr(ord("perl"))
16:25 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«␤»
16:27 TimToady rakudo: say "perl".Buf
16:27 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Method 'Buf' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/iTszj4tOl0␤»
16:27 oha am i wrong or in chr(ord("perl")) it call the @a signature instead of ($a) signature? and chr(123,101,114,108) do not call @a?
16:28 TimToady but the chr(ord()) should have called @a instead of *@a
16:28 TimToady so I doubt there's a sig with @a
16:29 TimToady and I'm quite sure people will be surprised if +ord($string) returns the number of characters rather than the first codepoint
16:31 TimToady so maybe we should have an ords() function do that instead
16:35 oha iff i'm not wrong, looking at rakudo ''.ord() fails, 'a'.ord() return a scalar and 'ab'.ord() return a gather/take list
16:39 TimToady I think we should split ord/ords
16:41 colomon +1 .... ish?
16:41 TimToady we can't force people to say +ord($s)[0]
16:41 colomon TimToady: but isn't the right answer to leave off the +  ?
16:42 TimToady the whole point of ord is to get the number of a codepoint, so + shouldn't change that
16:42 TimToady it'll have + semantics any time you use it as a number anyway
16:43 TimToady the only way to finesse it would be to return a different list type that knows it's supposed to return the head when used as a scalar
16:43 icwiener joined #perl6
16:43 TimToady and that seems like a bit of a crock
16:43 dalek mu: 763904e | duff++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/articles/feed.pod:
16:43 dalek mu: improvements from #perl6; added working examples
16:43 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/763904ef84
16:45 PerlJam everybody re-comment.
16:45 oha rakudo: multi sub chr(*@a) { [~] @a>>.chr }; say chr(ord('perl'));
16:45 colomon TimToady: I guess where I have an issue with the idea is that it isn't obvious to me that Str.ord should return only the first codepoint.  perhaps just because I haven't really used ord much.
16:45 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«perl␤»
16:46 colomon it seems to me that p6 has a quasi-consistent pattern of returning "one or a list" of items from its builtins.
16:46 oha TimToady: what if the ord() returns a OrdList which overload + to return the first element?
16:47 colomon oha: that strikes me as a very bad idea.  it's opening up an ugly can of worms, and violating Liskov as well.
16:48 oha colomon: agreed
16:48 TimToady PerlJam: I'd just write say ~@who-it's-at instead of using .join(" ")
16:50 TimToady ord has a long history in programming languages of only paying attention to the first character of a string
16:50 colomon TimToady: then we should probably honor that history
16:50 TimToady or say "@who-it's-at";
16:52 PerlJam you mean you mean "@who-its-at[]"  :)
16:52 colomon rakudo: say pir::box__PI(pir::ord__IS("This is a test"));
16:52 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«84␤»
16:52 PerlJam (I was trying to avoid that)
16:52 justatheory joined #perl6
16:52 PerlJam I'll go with prefix:<~>
16:52 TimToady and this way .ord can avoid starting up a useless pipeline, and .ords can be optimized for listiness
16:52 TimToady PerlJam: right, needs []
16:53 colomon TimToady: we already avoid a useless pipeline.
16:53 colomon The interesting plus is you can say "".ords and get a meaningful result instead of a fail.
16:53 PerlJam TimToady: re ord paying attention to only the first character.  I've long thought that a mistake or at the very least annoying.
16:53 TimToady how can use avoid a useless pipeline on .ord[0] semantics?
16:53 TimToady if it's a multichar string?
16:54 colomon TimToady: given self.chars ...
16:54 colomon TimToady: you change the spec, I'll change Rakudo?  :)
16:55 dalek mu: 01f44e8 | duff++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/articles/feed.pod:
16:55 dalek mu: remove .join from examples
16:55 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/01f44e8a69
16:58 PerlJam other advent authors: how did you go from POD to wordpress?
16:59 moritz_ pod2html => hand edit
16:59 moritz_ (join ech paragraph to one line, fix links that your pod2html couldn't convert)
16:59 PerlJam okay, that's what I'm doing too.  Just thought there might be a better way
17:00 * colomon just wrote in wordpress, distressingly low-tech ;)
17:01 colomon hmmm, ord / ords patch failed to compile, and it's lunch time.
17:10 moritz_ rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP { ^ \s* $ } }; say ?G.parse(' ')
17:10 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
17:10 dalek specs: b578b58 | TimToady++ | S29-functions.pod:
17:10 dalek specs: Distinguish listy ords/chrs from ord/chr
17:10 dalek specs:
17:10 dalek specs: It will be too confusing to overload ord/chr with both scalar and
17:10 dalek specs: list semantics.  This will also give more information to the optimizer
17:10 dalek specs: at compile time, since it cannot know whether .ord will be passed
17:10 dalek specs: a single- or multi-character string
17:11 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/b578b580a3
17:11 moritz_ urks
17:11 moritz_ (that was related to the regex thing)
17:13 moritz_ the implicit <.ws> before the ^ matches, so ^ is not at the start of the line anymore
17:15 TimToady yes, I've said before that such usage probably ought to generate a compile-time error, or maybe we should suppress .ws before certain tokens
17:16 TimToady matching \s* in a rule is suspect in any case
17:17 moritz_ rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP { ^ \w* $ } }; say ?G.parse(' ')
17:17 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
17:17 moritz_ doesn't need \s* to demonstrate that weirdness :-)
17:17 TimToady yes, separate issue
17:17 ilogger2 left #perl6
17:18 TimToady the original formulation of rules suppressed <.ws> on either side of any explicit whitespace matching, but I doubt we do that now
17:18 ilogger2 joined #perl6
17:18 moritz_ ^ does not match whitespace
17:19 TimToady I was talking about \s*, not ^
17:19 PerlJam I think moritz_ means it wouldn't have helped in this case.
17:20 TimToady I wasn't claiming it would
17:20 moritz_ right
17:20 TimToady I'm discussing "separate issue"
17:20 moritz_ right
17:21 moritz_ (in fact I only had a \s* in there for testing, because the implicit <.ws> didn'T seem to work, but it turned out that the whitespace before the ^  was the problem)
17:21 TimToady which is that currently that \s* will never match anything in that rule
17:21 TimToady even if the ^ did match
17:23 * PerlJam votes for a warning on explicit whitespace matching whenever :sigspace is in effect.
17:23 PerlJam we could always relax that if we later decide to make it magically work
17:23 PerlJam (plus it trains people on the Right Way :)
17:24 TimToady otoh, LTM currently suppresses <.ws> in rules that begin with alternations
17:24 TimToady so suppressing it before ^ and ^^ would be similar
17:24 dac joined #perl6
17:25 PerlJam and after $$ ?
17:25 TimToady after isn't a problem, but before is, since it will eat the \n
17:27 dac left #perl6
17:27 cdarroch joined #perl6
17:27 cdarroch left #perl6
17:27 cdarroch joined #perl6
17:27 PerlJam won't a <.ws> after $$ eat whitespace that another rule in sequence may want to anchor to?
17:27 bbkr std: map { }
17:27 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
17:27 bbkr rakudo: map { }
17:27 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Can't call map() with a Hash argument, Callable required␤You probably wrote a Hash composer accidentally - try to␤disambiguate it with a ; directly after the opening brace␤  in 'Any::map' at line 1468:CORE.setting␤  in 'map' at line 1814:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line …
17:27 TimToady PerlJam: yes, that could happen too
17:27 bbkr known bug?
17:28 jnthn bbkr: Rakudo is helping you there.
17:28 jnthn bbkr: Also it's a runtime check I think.
17:28 PerlJam rakudo:  map {; }
17:28 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
17:28 dac joined #perl6
17:28 jnthn rakudo++
17:28 PerlJam bbkr: see?  no worries.  :)
17:28 daxim left #perl6
17:29 TimToady rakudo: map { $_ }
17:29 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
17:30 TimToady rakudo: map { $_ => $_ }
17:30 PerlJam rakudo: map { 5 }
17:30 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Can't call map() with a Hash argument, Callable required␤You probably wrote a Hash composer accidentally - try to␤disambiguate it with a ; directly after the opening brace␤  in 'Any::map' at line 1468:CORE.setting␤  in 'map' at line 1814:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line …
17:30 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
17:30 bbkr rakudo: { 5 }.WHAT.say
17:30 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Block()␤»
17:30 TimToady rakudo: say { $_ => $_ }.WHAT
17:30 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
17:31 TimToady I believe that is anti-spec
17:31 * colomon finds Rakudo compiles much better if you don't have random failed patches sitting around to confuse it....
17:31 moritz_ TimToady: indeed. But pmichaud pointed out that the spec has quite some holes
17:31 colomon > "This is a test".ord
17:31 colomon 84
17:31 colomon > "This is a test".ords
17:31 colomon 84 104 105 115 32 105 115 32 97 32 116 101 115 116
17:32 PerlJam colomon++
17:32 PerlJam colomon: and  +ord("This is a test") == 84 ?
17:33 colomon > +ord("This is a test") == 84
17:33 colomon Bool::True
17:33 bbkr so "map { }" is not a bug. but should "map { 5 }" be reported? clearly first param is a block
17:33 moritz_ rakudo: say <a b c>.first('b')
17:33 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«b␤»
17:34 PerlJam rakudo:  map { 9,5,3 }, ()
17:34 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
17:34 PerlJam I guess you can't create something from nothing.
17:34 PerlJam er, Nil :)
17:35 PerlJam rakudo++
17:36 TimToady yes, S04:1580 requires that to be considered Code, not Hash
17:36 PerlJam wait ...
17:36 PerlJam rakudo: map { 5 }
17:36 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
17:36 PerlJam correct
17:36 PerlJam rakudo: map { $_ => $_ }
17:36 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Can't call map() with a Hash argument, Callable required␤You probably wrote a Hash composer accidentally - try to␤disambiguate it with a ; directly after the opening brace␤  in 'Any::map' at line 1468:CORE.setting␤  in 'map' at line 1814:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line …
17:37 bbkr aw, works, indeed. i looked at wrong rakudo response. sorry
17:37 TimToady that's what is violating spec, not { 5 }
17:37 PerlJam right
17:38 TimToady hash composers are not allowed to reference $_, basically
17:38 TimToady OUTER::<$_> would be fine though
17:40 colomon > chrs(112, 101, 114, 108)
17:40 colomon Too many positional parameters passed; got 4 but expected 1
17:40 colomon > chrs([112, 101, 114, 108])
17:40 colomon perl
17:41 colomon whoops, missed the *@grid
17:42 PerlJam colomon: got a test for chrs(ords($string)) eq $string  ?
17:42 colomon PerlJam: Haven't looked at the tests yet.
17:42 colomon I'm assuming this change will break some of them.
17:42 colomon and I definitely don't have any tests for chrs / ords
17:43 jferrero left #perl6
17:46 colomon TimToady: don't we need both chrs( Int *@grid ) and chrs( Int @grid )   ?
17:46 TimToady still think it should be @who-it's-at, since the apostrophe is legal in P6
17:46 uasi left #perl6
17:47 colomon because chrs([112, 101, 114, 108]).ord == 4 seems as bad as where we started from...
17:47 TimToady you can always use |@foo
17:47 TimToady but yeah, we could multi in an array arg
17:48 TimToady esp since it could be optimized better in some cases, methinks
17:48 colomon now if Rakudo can just handle it without blowing up....
17:49 bbkr rakudo: map { 1 } X==> grep { 1 } # should this be forbidden as STD says? Rakudo compiles and looks for signature anyway (and almost gets it right!)
17:49 TimToady would be funny if chrs(ords($foo),ords($bar)) was faster than ~
17:49 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«No candidates found to invoke for method 'map' on object of type 'Array'; available candidates have signatures:␤:(Mu : &block;; *%_)␤␤  in 'map' at line 1814:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/eOo7gmSDCc␤»
17:49 PerlJam TimToady: I don't know ... for people that haven't seen it yet, using - in variables seems only slightly surprising while using ' in variables seems like the universe is out of whack  :)
17:49 PerlJam and I didn't want to distract
17:50 TimToady the its/it's messup is also disturbing to may people
17:50 TimToady *many
17:52 PerlJam if it'll make you and tchrist happy  ...  :)
17:53 PerlJam post updated to say @who-it's-at
17:56 TimToady it'll be a nice waitaminute easter egg at the end for sompe people
17:56 TimToady *some
17:58 colomon >  chrs([112, 101, 114, 108])
17:58 colomon perl
17:58 colomon >  chrs(112, 101, 114, 108)
17:58 colomon perl
17:58 colomon \o/
17:58 PerlJam Lots of people rejoiced when Perl lost ' as namespace separator.   I can't imagine those people would be happy to see ' crop up in variable names.
17:58 TimToady or I guess it'd be a christmas egg in this case
17:58 colomon PerlJam: any test progress?  ;)
17:58 TimToady those people will have to get used to it sooner or later
17:58 TimToady best to hit them with a good use case early
17:59 TimToady and most of the ick factor of old ' was that it was short for ::
17:59 dakkar left #perl6
17:59 TimToady admittedly, it also gives a bit of heartburn to syntax highlighers, but not much, really
18:00 TimToady *ght
18:01 PerlJam I just have trouble remembering a single positive comment from people outside #perl6 about apostrophes in variable names.
18:02 PerlJam granted, the sample size of people I've talked with on this subject is quite small.
18:03 wtw left #perl6
18:04 TimToady we're not designing Perl 6 to please sticks-in-the-mud
18:04 slavik1 TimToady: when is christmas? ;)
18:04 TimToady dec 25
18:04 slavik1 not that christmas
18:05 TimToady dec 25, *
18:05 PerlJam slavik1: it's christmas everyday  (we've had rakudo for a while now)
18:05 slavik1 PerlJam: good opoint
18:05 flussence_ is now known as flussence
18:06 TimToady .oO("The kingdom of heaven is already among you.")
18:06 PerlJam repent!
18:06 PerlJam ;)
18:07 colomon wasn't dec 25, * around -3 BC?  ;)
18:11 allbery_b -4BC, and don't forget to factor in whenever your area did the gregorian conversion because that could potentially be off by a day
18:11 allbery_b (nd if you never did, like orthodox christianity, christmas is now january 7 on the civil calendar, having recently moved forward another day </pedant>)
18:12 allbery_b (aaaand now you know wht Instants and Durations are such a PITA to get right)
18:13 PerlJam allbery_b: those should be easy ... it's Mayan::Durations and Gregorian::Durations and such that should be a PITA
18:13 PerlJam :-)
18:15 PerlJam unless you're going to factor in relativistic effects too.  But I prefer choosing time as a fixed frame of reference for now as it makes everyday life easier
18:15 allbery_b you want real fun, try the Islamic calendar
18:16 allbery_b especially the bit about how every community has different conventions for when a new month starts (the two most common being local time and time at Mecca)
18:17 rokoteko so whats wrong with seconds since 01.01.1970 ?
18:17 TimToady -3 AD is 4 BC
18:18 allbery_b the fact that even if it's signed you get about 50 years either side of 1970
18:18 PerlJam rokoteko: seconds since 01.01.1970 where?  and which 01.01.1970 ?  :
18:18 TimToady -4BC would be 3 AD :)
18:18 allbery_b (see the Y2038 problem)
18:19 rokoteko allbery_b: are you talking to me? you extend the timestamp to 64bits and have some time to think.
18:19 TimToady just use FatRats and be done with it
18:20 allbery_b but the real issuew is Perl 6 wants to support more than the POSIX time model.  Astronomical time is one key case IIRC
18:20 rokoteko use RatsThatAlreadyExplodedBecauseTheyWereGettingTooFat;
18:20 TimToady the POSIX time model is fundamentally flawed
18:20 allbery_b also, it weants to not hardcode the Gregorian calendar, which is what you do if you use 1-1-1970
18:21 rokoteko TimToady: personally I think all the floats are flawed. bad design. it should be something like 1 would be largest number ever existed, 2 would be the second largest etc. if you need fractions you got 1/<the smallest number> which is the most accurate you can get.
18:22 TimToady I think the stringification of Instant should pick a random epoch every time you run
18:22 * allbery_b notes that he regularly uses two calendar systems, and even has a watch that helps with it
18:23 TimToady perhaps Instants should numify to the start time of the program as the epoch
18:23 rokoteko why just admit to the largest number your computer can recognize and to stick to that to avoid even more significant errors.
18:23 TimToady how much memory do you have?
18:23 rokoteko me? 4gb on this machine.
18:23 allbery_b gmp lets you have some pretty large numbers
18:24 rokoteko it will get me very far with somehow important calculations without erros, won't it?
18:24 TimToady that's probably accurate enough for most practical purposes
18:24 allbery_b (see Haskell's Integer type, and the BigInt module for perl5)
18:24 TimToady or the Int type for perl6 :)
18:24 rokoteko and you avoid floating point errors. win-win.
18:24 TimToady or should I say "Perl 6"
18:25 allbery_b or i it BigNum?  haven't used it in a while and antidepressant changes are mucking with my memory :/)
18:25 TimToady by the time your temporal calculations exceed the capacity of FatRat, it'll be later than you think
18:25 allbery_b "it's always too late" problem solved
18:25 colomon heh.  S29-conversions/ord_and_chr.t passes just fine after my change.  :\
18:26 TimToady he said testily...
18:27 colomon he said swiftly...
18:27 rokoteko TimToady: is this implemented as BigRats in perl6?
18:27 TimToady "Anything you can do, I can do meta."
18:27 colomon "I can do anything meta than you."
18:28 TimToady yes, that's the other end of it
18:28 rokoteko "What is meta?"
18:28 * colomon must stop before he laughs himself sick(er)
18:28 TimToady Why do you ask?
18:28 rokoteko TimToady: to quote my thoughts.
18:28 TimToady that's what you think
18:29 rokoteko me realizes he is chatting with Larry Wall.
18:29 * TimToady apologizes profusely, or perhaps confusely
18:29 moritz_ happens.
18:29 moritz_ Use of uninitialized value in numeric context  in 'MapIter::reify' at line 1
18:29 moritz_ that's... not very useful
18:30 rokoteko if chuck norris met something concrete he would meet TimToady being meta.
18:30 slavik1 ...
18:30 slavik1 awesomes ^^
18:30 TimToady rokoteko: there are no Big* types in Perl 6.  Int is already arbitrary sized (but NYI in rakudo), and FatRat is the Int/Int version of rationals
18:31 diakopter When I'm good I'm very, very good, but when I'm bad, I'm meta.
18:31 rokoteko what is the problem implementing them in rakudo? are they implemented anywhere?
18:32 rokoteko Im also curious, what is the big thing of making the feed operators to work?
18:32 moritz_ it needs doing
18:32 allbery_b rakudo is built on top of the parrot vm; if parrot doesn't support bignums yet, rakudo won't
18:32 TimToady feeds are partly done already
18:32 TimToady but only support coroutine semantics so far; we'd like them to pipeline between manycores at some point
18:33 diakopter No one can give you better advice than yourself.
18:33 diakopter er
18:33 diakopter bah.
18:33 TimToady which probably means putting some limititions on what can go on either side of a feed
18:33 TimToady *tat
18:33 rokoteko not very well. and also the translation mapping of $src ==> @feed[@(*)] ==> \my $dest; .. you can probably substitude @feed with a subroutine call?
18:35 TimToady arrays and hashes can always be replaced by subroutine calls, as far as subscripting goes
18:35 PerlJam @feed[@(*)] is already a "subroutine call"
18:35 rokoteko PerlJam: how? using lazy array to generate @feed ?
18:36 TimToady that's already @feed.&postfix:<[ ]>(@(*)) or some such
18:36 jnthn The handling for feeds so far is, iirc, written entirely in NQP. The extra bits for it probably also could be.
18:37 jnthn So no need to dive down to PIR even, for anyone who wants to hack on it. :)
18:37 rokoteko how what PIR is from NQP ?
18:37 rokoteko s/what/far/
18:37 TimToady the main difference between foo() and @foo[] is that the latter is designed to support multidimensional slices
18:38 jnthn rokoteko: A language level. :)
18:38 jnthn PIR is an assembly-ish language. NQP is a small subset of Perl 6.
18:38 TimToady which is also, by the way, the reason that %hash.delete is kinda bogus
18:38 rokoteko so you insert @(*) there. what's the difference between the two? what is @(*) ? I always thought it refers to the current element.
18:38 rokoteko kinda like $_ in perl5 but in more obscure context.
18:38 TimToady no, it's a lazy list
18:38 * jnthn thought it meant "list goes here"
18:39 TimToady so more like @_, except lazy
18:39 rokoteko ah. "each argument at a time, no more please" ?
18:39 TimToady (p5's @_, I mean)
18:39 slavik1 TimToady: does it make sense to have a non-lazy list?
18:39 TimToady if you want side effects in the calculation, sure
18:40 TimToady we're not purist when it comes to FP
18:40 slavik1 TimToady: but wouldn't you still get that with a lazy list?
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18:40 TimToady not if you wish to observe the side effect after the syncronization point
18:40 allbery_b slavik1: not always.   compare let and let* in common lisp for example
18:41 rokoteko ok. any writings or thought on how the type system is going to be? ml/haskell like c/java like or something completely different?
18:41 slavik1 allbery_b: I am not familiar with lisp that much to understand those
18:41 PerlJam "going to be"?
18:41 moritz_ rokoteko: S12 and S14 contain more info on the type system
18:41 moritz_ rokoteko: and signfificant parts of it are already implemented
18:42 moritz_ it's not like p6 was decided yesterday :-)
18:42 rokoteko no I was merely curious about the idea behind it. I think I've read those, but yes, I can take another look. :)
18:42 TimToady rakudo: my $x; my @foo := 1, { $x++ + $_ } ... * > 1000; say $x
18:42 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Any()␤»
18:42 TimToady rakudo: my $x; my @foo := eager 1, { $x++ + $_ } ... * > 1000; say $x
18:42 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/Imo3lVMImE␤46␤»
18:43 TimToady rakudo: my $x = 0; my @foo := eager 1, { $x++ + $_ } ... * > 1000; say $x
18:43 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«46␤»
18:43 TimToady that uninit on ++ is bogus
18:43 slavik1 do rakudo star releases have proper installation scripts or is it best to compile it and use from whatever dir the code is in?
18:43 TimToady it should assume 0
18:43 moritz_ TimToady: doesn't $x++ return $x?
18:44 moritz_ slavik1: there's an installer
18:44 moritz_ aka 'make install'
18:44 colomon rakudo: my $x; my @foo := 1, { ++$x + $_ } ... * > 1000; say $x
18:44 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Any()␤»
18:44 moritz_ the README knows more
18:44 TimToady okay, me stands corrected, except I'm not
18:44 slavik1 moritz_: awesome, last time I tried it, it didn't put libraries in proper places or something
18:44 TimToady rakudo: my $x; my @foo := eager 1, { ++$x + $_ } ... * > 1000; say $x
18:45 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«45␤»
18:45 colomon TimToady: In your first example, .... ah, you caught the eager
18:45 TimToady arguably, $x++ that assumes 0 should return 0 too
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18:46 colomon Commencing spectest run for the ords / chrs patch.
18:47 rokoteko what is $x here. the first parameter passed to the block because there are no more prioritized (alphabetically by variables name) variables to use?
18:47 moritz_ rokoteko: $x is just the $x that was declared with 'my $x'
18:47 rokoteko where does $_ come from ?
18:48 rokoteko ahh..
18:48 moritz_ $_ is the first argument of the block
18:48 rokoteko too much perl5 like. I got confused with $^x
18:51 moritz_ rakudo: say 1 <= -2 <= 5
18:51 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
18:51 dalek specs: ef12f7f | TimToady++ | S03-operators.pod:
18:51 dalek specs: make $x++ return 0 on appropriate undefs
18:51 dalek specs:
18:51 dalek specs: Since the operator is doing something defined, the first
18:51 dalek specs: value it returns should also be defined.
18:51 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/ef12f7f7c5
18:52 moritz_ rakudo: say <a b c>.first('d')
18:52 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
18:52 TimToady rakudo: my $x; my @foo := eager 1, ++$x + * ... * > 1000; say $x
18:52 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«45␤»
18:53 colomon rakudo: my $x; my @foo = 1, ++$x + * ... * > 1000; say $x
18:53 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«45␤»
18:53 TimToady assignment is eager, yes
18:54 colomon just trying to make sure I wasn't missing something there.  :)
18:54 TimToady well, mostly eager
18:54 colomon eager enough for the purposes of this conversation.
18:54 TimToady it should know to give up on infinities
18:54 TimToady rakudo: my $x; my @foo = 1, ++$x + * ... *; say $x  # should work eventually
18:54 colomon I still think assignment should be more lazy, but I'm not going to rehash that today.
18:55 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«(timeout)»
18:55 TimToady it should see the * on the right and tell the assignment to be lazier
18:56 TimToady and we've discussed allowing ,* on the ends of lists that are known to be infinite by the programmer but not by the compiler
18:56 TimToady such a ,* is harmless even if it means replicate the final value, since an infinite list won't have a final value
18:58 TimToady we should make sure it also works in: 1,2,3 ... :!defined, *
19:00 PerlJam std: @foo ==> @(*) ==> @bar
19:00 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Variable @foo is not predeclared at /tmp/2EpRZrvy2q line 1:␤------> [32m@foo[33m⏏[31m ==> @(*) ==> @bar[0m␤Variable @bar is not predeclared at /tmp/2EpRZrvy2q line 1:␤------> [32m@foo ==> @(*) ==> @bar[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤Check failed␤FAILED
19:00 p6eval ..00:0…
19:00 PerlJam std: my @foo ==> @(*) ==> my @bar
19:00 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
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19:08 * moritz_ thinks he found a rakudobug, but has trouble reproducing
19:09 rokoteko TimToady: haha. this was just earlier today in thedailywtf. :9 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Really,-Really-Freaking-Huge-Time-Limit.aspx
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19:09 rokoteko ... erm. or a couple days ago.
19:09 flussence depends which planet you're on
19:10 rokoteko do you have collection I can choose out of?
19:11 flussence actually, the link looks only 0.8 earth-days old...
19:12 * flussence doesn't pay that much attention to the RPM of other orbital rocks anyway
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19:18 TimToady funny that the comment talks about "all the 0s" when there are only 9s...
19:19 moritz_ rakudo: class A { method ACCEPTS($x) { say "ACCEPTS: $x" } }; $_ = A.new; 3 ~~ $_;
19:19 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
19:19 moritz_ rakudo: class A { method ACCEPTS($x) { say "ACCEPTS: $x" } }; 3 ~~ A.new;
19:19 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«ACCEPTS: 3␤»
19:20 TimToady surely the other rocks would have identical RPMs, if they define minutes as a fraction of their daily revolution...
19:20 * moritz_ submits the first masak-contest-induced rakudobug
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19:32 colomon \o/  moritz_++
19:32 jnthn moritz_: Ain't that spec?
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19:33 jnthn e.g. $_ is set to the LHS of a smart-match
19:33 jnthn Thus how $x ~~ .predicate works.
19:33 moritz_ jnthn: hm
19:34 moritz_ so it really does   do { my $_ = 3; .ACCEPTS($_) } ?
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19:35 jnthn moritz_: It really changes $_ for the time it takes to evaluate the RHS, yes.
19:36 jnthn moritz_: There used to be a bunch of syntactic special cases
19:36 jnthn so $x ~~ .foo worked becuase it was syntactically special.
19:36 jnthn But a while ago that went away in favor of just twiddling $_
19:36 * jnthn remembers implementing that change
19:37 TimToady so ~~ $_ always asks an object if it finds its own self acceptable, I guess... :)
19:37 TimToady but maybe we should warn
19:37 moritz_ so, not a bug after all, just very unintuititve
19:39 TimToady rakudo: class A { method ACCEPTS($x) { say "ACCEPTS: $x" } }; $_ = A.new; say "yes" when $_ given 3
19:39 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«yes␤»
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19:39 TimToady rakudo: class A { method ACCEPTS($x) { say "ACCEPTS: $x" } }; $_ = A.new; say "yes" if 3 ~~ $_
19:39 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«yes␤»
19:39 TimToady same thing, really
19:40 jnthn moritz_: Yes; otoh you're the first person I am aware has run into this issue since the change was implemented.
19:40 jnthn moritz_: Which dates back pre-R*.
19:40 jnthn I imagine it's bizzare to run into though. +1 to warning.
19:40 TimToady what's the workaround to the warning?
19:41 moritz_ jnthn: actually I remember urging you to implement it, so that  ~~ s/// coul work properly
19:41 moritz_ ~~ * # if the type accepts itself
19:41 TimToady that's always true
19:41 moritz_ right
19:42 jnthn TimToady: Just put the thing you want to test into anything other than $_ :-)
19:42 TimToady rakudo: my $x = /foo/; say "yes" if $x ~~ $_
19:42 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
19:43 dalek rakudo: d1e6636 | colomon++ | src/core/Cool- (2 files):
19:43 dalek rakudo: Split Any.ord into Any.ord and Any.ords, add Any.chrs.
19:43 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d1e66361f6
19:43 TimToady there's something that doesn't accept itself
19:45 moritz_ maybe Regex.ACCEPTS should only accept Cool, and Regex !~~ Cool
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19:52 TimToady makes sense
19:53 colomon "It should not matter whether the points in the polygon run clockwise or counterclockwise."  Silly masak!
19:55 colomon And silly colomon for looking at this problem when I should be doing an Advent post.
19:55 moritz_ TimToady: do you want to contribute a post for the advent calendar?
19:56 TimToady if I did, it'd probably be about cultural hacks
19:56 moritz_ that's totally fine, as long as it's somewhat related to p6 (or the p6 community)
19:56 TimToady well, I think Camelia is related :)
19:57 moritz_ somewhat :-)
19:57 TimToady and she'd definitely intended as a cultural hack
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19:59 PerlJam So far the posts have been mostly technical.  It would be nice to expose a little more of the culture.
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20:01 rokoteko I think I need to get to bed. Good night all. Sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite!
20:02 TimToady o/
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20:05 TimToady $.nomifications
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20:17 sjohnson http://xspblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/OmNomNomNom.jpg
20:17 flussence that's a big bed bug.
20:18 rokoteko what the heck. it's only 22:28 (in finnish time) and I was about to go to bed. I just realised that and go tback up.
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20:19 rokoteko I think I will turn the radio on next.
20:19 jnthn The day didn't finnish yet. :)
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20:20 rokoteko It's a commercial about a christmas pig (that one is supposed to eat) on the radio
20:21 rokoteko oh wait. god knows of finnish. maybe this is actually the song. lasts too long to be a commercial.
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20:24 rokoteko ahh. christmas songs :)
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20:48 sorear good * #perl6
20:49 jasonmay hola
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20:50 jasonmay so, I want to look at the HOW stuff in rakudo. are there any guides anywhere, docs the describe the internal architecture, anything like that?
20:51 jasonmay (I have these crazy ideas in my head that I could just dig into the source, see what's going on, clean things up a bit)
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20:55 sorear check docs/
20:55 sorear rakudo: say 2.PARROT
20:55 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Int␤»
20:55 sorear rakudo: say 2.HOW.PARROT
20:55 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«ClassHOW␤»
20:55 sorear rakudo: say 2.HOW.HOW.PARROT
20:55 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Method 'PARROT' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/LIoLsKfwJA␤»
20:55 moritz_ jasonmay: the meta object implementation is being reimplemented, see http://6guts.wordpress.com/ for more info
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21:01 jasonmay sorear/moritz_: thanks
21:01 lichtkind why oh why #`() ? why not ##() ?
21:02 moritz_ lichtkind: because ` is the only printable ASCII character that doesn't appear in any other Perl 6 syntax
21:03 lichtkind moritz_: because its hard to type :)
21:03 lichtkind moritz_: thank you
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21:32 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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21:44 lichtkind qx is evaled on BEGIN time?
21:44 lichtkind or on runtime?
21:44 moritz_ what makes you think so?
21:44 lichtkind im not shure and cant find nothing in S02
21:44 moritz_ when in doubt, it's the same as in p5
21:45 lichtkind its also mit ambigous if qqx is really in the P6 definition or example macro
21:45 lichtkind so runtime good
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21:45 moritz_ std: qqx/foo/
21:45 p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
21:45 moritz_ lichtkind: feel free to clarify the spec
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21:45 lichtkind i dont feel in position to do that :)
21:46 moritz_ why not?
21:46 lichtkind and i wonder if your qqx did a real system call
21:46 moritz_ of course it did not, since std only checks syntax
21:46 lichtkind ah
21:47 lichtkind i just start with clarifying tablets and i think i dont have commit bit anyway
21:48 moritz_ you have one
21:48 moritz_ anyway, to me it's pretty clear
21:48 moritz_ "You may omit the first colon by joining an initial C<Q>, C<q>, or C<qq> with
21:48 moritz_ a single short form adverb"
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21:53 lichtkind moritz_: it was not clear to be if its evaled on runtime
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21:55 lichtkind and qqw was so close to that macro that i didnt know hes referring to it
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22:11 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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22:16 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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22:21 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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22:32 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
22:32 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_basics_tablet
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22:43 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_basics_tablet
22:45 lichtkind rakudo: my @a = <<one "two three">>;say @a.perl
22:45 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«["one", "\"two", "three\""]␤»
22:45 lichtkind a bug :)
22:47 cotto_work what's the nomnom branch of nqp-rx for?
22:47 sorear nomNOM?
22:47 cotto_work yes
22:48 sorear looks like there are only two commits different between nom and nomnom, both by colomon++
22:48 sorear ask him
22:50 cotto_work colomon: ping
22:51 colomon pong
22:51 cotto_work colomon: what's nomnom?
22:51 cotto_work and who do I talk to to get a commit bit for nqp-rx?
22:51 cotto_work the capitalization of STable.pmc breaks the build for me
22:52 colomon The goal of nomnom was to break HLL::Compiler away from PCT::HLLCompiler.  In practice, that turned out to be a terrible disaster, so I haven't looked at it further.
22:52 colomon I think I got my commit bit from jnthn or moritz_.
22:52 colomon Is the capitalization all you're worried about at the moment?
22:52 cotto_work for now
22:53 cotto_work I do want to play with it some more though.
22:53 cotto_work its mop is the future
22:53 cotto_work or some approximation thereof
22:53 colomon I can look at fixing that when I get the chance.  (Need to take my little boy out to a Christmas walk at the moment.)
22:53 MayDaniel joined #perl6
22:53 cotto_work k
22:56 sorear cotto_work: are you cotto on github?
22:56 cotto_work yes
22:57 sorear you now have an nqp-rx commit bit
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23:03 cotto_work sorear: should I expect some tests to fail?
23:04 sorear dunno
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23:09 lichtkind should i file a bugreport?
23:16 colomon cotto_work: I seem to recall jnthn++ telling me some tests were expected to fail when I asked the same question.
23:16 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_basics_tablet
23:17 cotto_work I'll push then.
23:17 colomon cotto_work: feel free to push your filename fix, then.  :)
23:17 dalek nqp-rx/nom: 361fef3 | cotto++ | src/pmc/ (2 files):
23:17 dalek nqp-rx/nom: rename STable.pmc to stable.pmc to avoid making case-sensitive OSs sad
23:17 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/361fef33ae
23:18 colomon cotto_work++
23:18 sorear cotto_work: Why is that needed?
23:19 cotto_work on my ubuntu box gcc can't find pmc_STable.h
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23:20 sorear ah
23:20 colomon ie the nom branches had only ever been built on Windows and OS X, likely.
23:21 cotto_work I figured
23:21 cotto_work it's a weakness of pmc2c
23:21 cotto_work one of many
23:21 colomon it's a weakness of not testing your build on enough different machines.  :\
23:22 colomon Actually, come to think of it, I found a couple of things that didn't work on OS X when I tried building it for the first time.
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23:24 cotto_work What's the relationship between nom and 6model?
23:25 colomon ah.... that's a darned good question.  Do you know, sorear?
23:26 diakopter the ideas prototyped in 6model are expected to someday be propogated back to nom
23:26 colomon diakopter++
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23:28 cotto_work So does 6model exist to flesh out issues that came up in nom?
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23:29 colomon 6model is a complete rewrite of the object system, targeting CLR first
23:30 colomon afk # off to Christmas walk
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23:36 cotto_work do nom and 6model implement the same object model, just with 6model targeting the CLR?
23:36 cotto_work I'm trying to understand why they both exist and what role they fill.
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23:40 sorear cotto_work: 6model came first
23:40 sorear 6model develops the new object system for multiple VMs at the same tim
23:40 sorear for pragmatic reasons, 6model/parrot is kept in the nqp repo
23:40 sorear but it's logically still part of 6model
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23:43 cotto_work sorear: so nom is 6model/parrot?  That makes sense.
23:45 jnthn cotto_work: There even used to be a 6model/parrot. :)
23:46 jnthn cotto_work: But as soon as it started to get anywhere I realized a branch in the nqp-rx repo was going to be easier overall.
23:46 jnthn So it's just as sorear++ said - pragmatic reasons. Or "jnthn wanted to do it that way" reasons. :)
23:46 jnthn Generally, the implementation on the CLR is the bleeding edge one.
23:47 cotto_work What's more bleedinger about it?
23:47 jnthn It's where I develop stuff / experiment first.
23:47 jnthn Again, pragmatic: it's the easiest place to.
23:48 cotto_work how far ahead is it?
23:48 jnthn Somewhat. (more)
23:48 jnthn The hard thing tends to not be the implementation, but working out how to do it, and how to factor it.
23:49 jnthn The big area it's way ahead in is multi-dispatch.
23:49 jnthn The lexicals problem I mentioned aside, though, now I've got a factoring/design I'm happy with, porting it is not all that much effort.
23:50 jnthn Generally I don't port until I (a) have a time slot to do it and (b) am fairly happy that the design of the thing I'm going to port is fairly solid, to try and avoid dupe work.
23:51 cotto_work It sounds like I won't lose too much by studying nom.
23:51 cotto_work rather than 6model
23:51 jnthn The core data structures are in there.
23:52 jnthn (in both)
23:52 jnthn Both have a ClassHOW implemented in NQP.
23:52 jnthn The nom one knows how to do MI, but not how to handle multi-methods. Vice versa for 6model.
23:53 jnthn If there's a reason to study 6model, it's because it has to provide stuff that nom currently relies on Parrot having PMCs for.
23:53 jnthn And it does it by fitting it in with the overall representation polymorphism model.
23:53 cotto_work So it'll be more like the eventual M0 implementation.
23:54 jnthn Well, nom grudglingly accepts the existence of PMCs.
23:54 jnthn So far as I care for them, they're in the same class as CLR objects.
23:54 jnthn Something the rest of what I do has to interop with.
23:54 jnthn And in some cases, build things out of.
23:55 jnthn There's no real reason that PMCs couldn't just become another type of repr/HOW.
23:55 jnthn Though their repr is really "a chunk of memory that C manages".
23:55 jnthn er
23:55 jnthn I mean, that's used like a struct by some C code.
23:56 jnthn Though I guess with Lorito, iiuc, there's no C code per se.
23:56 sorear what I see right now is jnthn managing to attract lots of people to help with something
23:56 cotto_work jnthn: right
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23:57 sorear despite not having the technical advantage
23:57 jnthn sorear: wtf?
23:57 sorear Niecza can currently run more stuff than NQP.NET, IIUC
23:58 sorear I thought "run more stuff" was the best way to attract more people.  It's not working out like that.
23:58 jnthn sorear: Yes. It always will be able to as well. :)
23:58 sorear ("technical advantage" is a bit vague and wrong here...)
23:59 jnthn sorear: If you want to attract people whose primary interest is "a full featured Perl 6 compiler", I suspect it is.

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