Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-12-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:30 TiMBuS rakudo: "hello".split('')».ord.map(*+13)».chr.join('').say
00:30 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«uryy|␤»
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00:54 arnsholt phenny: tell moritz_ Turns out EXPR isn't in Rakudo, only NQP, which makes my post a bit pointless. Sorry =/
00:54 phenny arnsholt: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
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03:43 * colomon is sitting staring at a quarter-written line intersection, without enough brain power to finish an algorithm he's done a dozen times before.
03:54 colomon rakudo: say Any;
03:54 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Any()␤»
03:54 kthakore TRIX,m);
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04:13 awm hello
04:13 kthakore awm: hi
04:15 awm How can someone volunteer to help the Perl6 project?
04:23 kthakore awm: just volunteer
04:23 kthakore which project do you want to help with?
04:23 kthakore err
04:23 kthakore I mean
04:23 kthakore what part in the project do you want to help with?
04:25 awm Well I suppose wherever volunteers might be needed.  I just love perl and would like to get involved even doing something non-programming really or whatever
04:25 kthakore awm: first take a look at the different projects that constitute for perl. There is rakudo and parrot
04:26 kthakore have a look at their bug reports and see what you can do
04:26 awm ah I see
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04:26 kthakore awm: this is for rakudo http://rakudo.org/node/23
04:27 kthakore err sorry that is for the site
04:27 kthakore hold on
04:27 awm thanks
04:27 kthakore awm: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Search/Simple.html?Query=Queue%20=%20%27perl6%27%20AND%20%28Status%20=%20%27open%27%20OR%20Status%20=%20%27new%27%20OR%20Status%20=%20%27stalled%27%29
04:27 kthakore and parrot is at http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/report/1
04:28 kthakore pick a bug, talk to the people on mailing lists and start hacking :D
04:29 awm thanks I appreciate it!
04:30 kthakore awm++ no problem go have fun :D
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06:11 sorear good * #perl6
06:14 sorear masak: arnsholt: STD's OPP is in STD.pm6 itself.  Talking with TimToady and from personal experience I'd say that it's too hard to make a totally general OPP
06:14 sorear You could steal the OPP from niecza's v6/STD.pm6; I think it's closer to being runnable with Rakudo
06:15 sorear although you'll need to fix the subrule backtracking protocol
06:16 sorear the original EXPR from std.git/STD.pm6 used labelled control flow and computed method calls; I had to heavily rewrite it for niecza
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06:17 sorear also I'd like something like Match.synthetic to be standardized
06:46 TiMBuS id like to get libyaml working in rakudo. should I use zavolaj or is it outdated/superseded?
06:49 sorear no, zavolaj is current
06:50 TiMBuS alright then
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06:51 TiMBuS guess i also have to figure out how to work with pointers to types
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07:07 sorear TimToady: pin
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07:49 masak sorear: too hard to make "a totally general OPP"? that must be with LTM or something, becuase the one in PGE feels pretty general.
07:57 sorear Can the PGE one handle postcircumfix operators?
07:57 masak yes.
07:57 sorear Can it handle null-string operators?
07:57 masak yes.
07:57 sorear Can it handle multiple OPPs in one language?
07:57 masak er.
07:57 masak when does that happen?
07:58 sorear C has a language of types and a language of expressions, and they're mostly separate
07:58 masak ah, so it's the same string that needs to be parsed with two "views"?
07:59 masak no, it doesn't handle that.
07:59 sorear so I suppose they're different languages in a sense
07:59 masak unless you parse them twice.
07:59 * sorear has never used PGE
07:59 * masak has ported it
07:59 masak here's the PGE OPTable parser in Perl 6: https://github.com/masak/gge/blob/master/lib/GGE/OPTable.pm
08:00 masak that's alpha code, by the way.
08:00 masak I don't remember the ng code being extremely different.
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08:50 sorear bah, Perl 5 doesn't like qw< foo, bar, baz, > much
08:51 masak it accepts it with a warning.
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09:22 moritz_ good morning
09:22 phenny moritz_: 00:54Z <arnsholt> tell moritz_ Turns out EXPR isn't in Rakudo, only NQP, which makes my post a bit pointless. Sorry =/
09:23 sorear good morning moritz_
09:24 sorear masak: I'd love to see more discussion on a standardizable EXPR, if you think it's feasable.
09:24 masak good morning, moritz_.
09:25 masak sorear: I was thinking about ways to expose Perl6::Grammar as an API the other day.
09:25 masak it seems that relatively often what people do is reimplement parts of Perl 6 parsin at great expense.
09:26 masak having those parts accessible could help make some solutions ridiculously short, just by leveraging Perl 6 parsing and ASTs.
09:30 sorear masak: I, too, would like to see an elaboration on S05:4035
09:34 masak yes, that's a bit lean on details :)
09:35 masak usually, the way to get more spec for these things is to run headlong into them with an implementation.
09:39 dalek mu: 472fcb0 | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/ (2 files):
09:39 dalek mu: [advent] some schedule and topic updates
09:39 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/472fcb045e
09:40 tadzik so still nothing for today?
09:40 tadzik how about smartmatching?
09:40 sorear can't we just use the OPP thing?
09:40 sorear masak: aye.
09:41 sorear masak: I would love to talk about this more
09:41 moritz_ tadzik: I just went through the list of topics, and thought that smartmatching was the easiest to write about on short notice
09:41 masak sorear: me too. maybe at the #phasers on Tuesday?
09:41 sorear masak: STD is, quite frankly, useless when taken strictly as a library
09:41 sorear yes
09:41 sorear I have lots of time then
09:42 masak yes -- I think considering STD from the viewpoint of an API could be very fruitful.
09:43 sorear I'm thinking I'll write an announcement for the 'v1' Niecza tag on the last Monday in November
09:43 sorear December
09:43 sorear and 'v1' will be set to mark the announcement
09:43 masak sounds nice.
09:43 sorear it'll be my own version of the "official and complete" gag - self-referential releases
09:43 masak I'm hoping to get in quite a lot of niecza use until then.
09:44 masak :)
09:44 moritz_ WOAH, AN 1.0 RELEASE!
09:44 moritz_ *scnr*
09:44 masak yes, what moritz_ said. do make it v1.0 :)
09:44 masak it'll complement "official and complete" nicely.
09:45 masak so when newbtrolls say "no, but I mean an 1.0 release", we can counter that too :P
09:45 sorear on the last Monday of November, I tagged v0.0
09:45 sorear but forgot to mention that in the mail
09:46 masak that's usually not a problem.
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09:47 masak especially not if you tagged it at the time of the announcement.
09:47 sorear isn't Rakudo already at version 40.0?
09:47 moritz_ no, it's at version 2010.11
09:48 tadzik WOAH!
09:48 sorear !
09:48 masak that's a seriously impressive version number.
09:48 tadzik 2010.109999(9) was nice too
09:49 moritz_ This is Rakudo Perl 6, version 2010.11-15-gfedc117 built on parrot 2.10.1 RELEASE_2_10_1-697-g1ebb549
09:49 sorear It's nothing compared to the STD version, though
09:49 masak :)
09:49 sorear stefan@stefans:~$ perl -MV=STD
09:49 sorear STD /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.12.0/STD.pm: 20101111
09:49 masak o.O
09:50 masak &
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10:14 * sorear out
10:16 tadzik moritz_: so, ~~ for today?
10:16 moritz_ rakudo: say 'b' ~~ 'a' .. 'c'
10:16 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
10:16 moritz_ tadzik: yes, I'm working on it
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10:16 tadzik . o O ( one operator to rule them all )
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10:17 tadzik moritz_: oh, need a hand, or mind letting me write a part? :)
10:17 moritz_ tadzik: I'll push what I have now
10:18 dalek mu: afd5fc5 | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/articles/smartmatching.pod:
10:18 dalek mu: [advent] smartmaching
10:18 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/afd5fc5cf2
10:18 moritz_ tadzik: feel free to pick it up from here
10:19 tadzik I'd substitute a table with a set of examples
10:20 moritz_ feel free
10:26 tadzik how about { $_ > 10 } instead of -> $x { $x > 10 }?
10:26 moritz_ I didn't do it because $_ has a special handling
10:26 tadzik mhm
10:27 moritz_ and it might be confusing to have it once as the LHS, and once as a formal parameter
10:28 tadzik right
10:29 * moritz_ thinks we should link to masak's coding challenge at the end, even if not related
10:31 moritz_ erm, contest
10:31 tadzik hmm
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10:32 tadzik maybe a separate post with "how to contribute" mentioning the post?
10:32 moritz_ maybe that, yes
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10:33 moritz_ or it's something that I can add to one of the side bars
10:33 tadzik that'be great
10:36 ingy TiMBuS++ # libyaml
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10:38 tadzik moritz_: https://gist.github.com/737973 ok for you?
10:38 TiMBuS well, at least I hope to get it working ingy. atm I'm just converting yaml.h but I'm not sure how to get these pointers all working properly
10:39 moritz_ tadzik: sure
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10:46 dalek mu: 3b865ae | (Tadeusz Sośnierz)++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/articles/smartmatching.pod:
10:46 dalek mu: some additions to smartmatching
10:46 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/3b865ae0d0
10:46 tadzik moritz_: pushed this and that, will be back in a while
11:03 dalek mu: fc49a66 | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/articles/smartmatching.pod:
11:03 dalek mu: [advent] some small corrections and enhancements to smart match article
11:03 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/fc49a6657b
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11:04 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; my @b; my $c = @b[0] = @a[1] + 1; say $c; say @b[0];
11:04 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«3␤Any()␤»
11:04 moritz_ rakudo: my @b; my $c = @b[0] = 1; say $c; say @b[0];
11:04 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1␤1␤»
11:05 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; my @b; my $c = @b[0] = @a[1]; say $c; say @b[0];
11:05 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«2␤Any()␤»
11:05 * moritz_ submits rakudobug
11:07 moritz_ rakudo: my @b; my $c = @b[0] = (1, 2); say $c; say @b[0];
11:07 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1 2␤1 2␤»
11:08 moritz_ rakudo: my @b; my $c = @b[0] = 1, 2; say $c; say @b[0];
11:08 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1 2␤1 2␤»
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11:36 tadzik anyone experienced with Zavolaj?
11:39 tadzik http://wklej.org/id/436410/
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12:23 TiMBuS tadzik, that looks correct?
12:24 TiMBuS well, actually i think void functions arent supposed to have an OpaquePointer as a return, its meant to be undefined. but aside from that..
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12:25 tadzik TiMBuS: look at the errors below, that's the problem
12:26 TiMBuS according to google, the changelog for libmpd: connection: renamed mpd_connection_close() to mpd_connection_free()
12:26 tadzik hmm
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12:26 tadzik bah, stupid tadzik
12:26 tadzik TiMBuS++
12:28 TiMBuS glad to help
12:29 TiMBuS now if you happen to know how to take an int pointer from a C function and dereference it from parrot...
12:29 TiMBuS id be really happy to hear how to do it :D
12:29 tadzik :)
12:31 tadzik I actually thought about writing a helper zavolaj-friendly C library to do what zavolaj can't do :)
12:31 TiMBuS it might be handy
12:31 tadzik so you would dereference_intptr()
12:32 tadzik that's a bit workaround-y
12:33 tadzik extendind Parrot NCI would be more noble
12:34 TiMBuS i really cant figure out how to do it from parrot, either
12:34 TiMBuS the Pointer PMC doesnt help
12:48 jnthn TiMBuS: If you like, drop me a mail with the C function signature you're having trouble calling. I won't be able to look for the next week or so, but at least it'll be a reminder for when I do get some Zavolaj hacking time.
12:48 jnthn (Zavolaj certainly needs to extensions. It'll get 'em.)
12:48 jnthn (Parrot got better NCI support since I wrote Zavolaj.)
12:55 tadzik jnthn: is reading the returned arrays (array poiters) supported?
12:56 jnthn I believe that there's already some array support, yes
12:56 jnthn And you can treat any pointed to thing as an array in a sense. :)
12:56 tadzik any examples around?
12:57 jnthn I think the mysql driver may do that to read the columns.
12:57 tadzik oh, so Positional, not Array
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12:59 jnthn Yeah
12:59 tadzik # Since mysql_fetch_fields() is not usable yet...
12:59 tadzik yeah :)
12:59 jnthn returns Positional of Int
13:00 tadzik yes
13:00 tadzik returning unhandled string type in struct -- I don't get it
13:00 jnthn But if it returns an int pointer then using that and then [0] will be just like a dereference of the pointer.
13:00 jnthn ?
13:01 tadzik http://wklej.org/id/436480/
13:01 tadzik ah, I see
13:01 tadzik so, any way to use this now?
13:05 jnthn hmm
13:05 jnthn I'm not sure where that error comes from
13:05 jnthn It looks like a Parrot-y one.
13:05 moritz_ tadzik: what's the state of the advent post?
13:06 moritz_ tadzik: I pushed a small change, do you want to add more to it?
13:06 * jnthn afk for a bit
13:09 tadzik moritz_: Let me look through it once again
13:12 tadzik moritz_: I'd add something about ACCEPTS method, so people will know how to use it with their own classes
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13:13 moritz_ tadzik: good idea
13:15 tadzik moritz_: I don't have much experience in this field, but will write some draft and what I know
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13:22 moritz_ rakudo: my @x := gather { take 1; take 2; take @x[0] + @x[1] }; say @x[*-1]
13:22 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«3␤»
13:22 moritz_ \o/
13:25 tadzik moritz_: http://wklej.org/id/436512/ what's wrong about this thingy? Returns False for the second say
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13:40 moritz_ tadzik: needs the point on the RHS
13:40 tadzik moritz_: hm?
13:40 tadzik the Point?
13:40 moritz_ [3,5] ~~ $a
13:41 moritz_ the object of class Point
13:41 tadzik oh
13:41 tadzik can't it be the other way around?
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13:42 tadzik ah, I see
13:42 tadzik the other way around would be prettier thouth
13:42 tadzik * though
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13:46 dalek mu: acca283 | (Tadeusz Sośnierz)++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/articles/smartmatching.pod:
13:46 dalek mu: [advent] A word about ACCEPTS in smartmaching article
13:46 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/acca283c38
13:46 tadzik moritz_: pushed
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14:09 moritz_ tadzik: can you publish it please?
14:10 tadzik moritz_: as it is?
14:10 moritz_ tadzik: well, if we want to today, we'd better get going
14:17 tadzik alright
14:24 tadzik moritz_: http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2010/12/12/day-12-%E2%80%93-smart-matching/ I don't know how to add you as an author though
14:25 moritz_ tadzik: neither do I
14:25 moritz_ tadzik: but that's OK; I published your IO post too
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15:57 tadzik http://wklej.org/id/436636/ -- could someone give me a hand?
16:12 flussence rakudo: class Foo { has $!obj; method BUILD() { $!obj = 1 } }; Foo.new.perl.say
16:12 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Foo.new(obj => 1)␤»
16:12 flussence (that was just from blindly changing things until it worked though, so may not be the best answer)
16:14 flussence s/method/submethod/ # now it's the right answer
16:16 tadzik hmm
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16:23 uasi tadzik: this would work http://wklej.org/id/436665/
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16:24 tadzik oh, this way
16:24 tadzik thanks flussence and uasi
16:25 uasi :)
16:26 tadzik cool, works :)
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16:30 lichtkind jnthn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q6A27c8DwE&amp;NR=1&amp;feature=fvwp
16:32 tadzik now what worries me is that DESTROY is never called
16:35 tadzik rakudo: class Foo { method DESTROY { say "I'm out" } } Foo.new
16:35 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "class Foo "␤»
16:35 tadzik rakudo: class Foo { method DESTROY { say "I'm out" } }o Foo.new
16:35 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "class Foo "␤»
16:35 tadzik bah
16:35 tadzik rakudo: class Foo { method DESTROY { say "I'm out" } }; Foo.new
16:35 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
16:35 tadzik a bug?
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17:29 colomon tadzik: last time I checked, Rakudo doesn't do end of execution garbage collection.  I ran into problems with open files not closing automatically at the end of a script run.
17:32 tadzik bah, not too good
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17:37 tadzik fun with zavolaj: https://github.com/tadzik/perl6-MPD
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18:46 lue ohai to the world o/
18:49 tadzik o/
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19:29 lue Am I able to post to the advent calendar? [if you need my nick, it's lueinc on wordpress (stupid minimum character limit)]
19:30 rindolf lue: I envy you.
19:30 rindolf My nick is ga-827482749274829-somethiing.
19:31 rindolf And they won't let me change it.
19:31 lue how did that happen?
19:33 rindolf lue: it was assigned automatically.
19:33 rindolf lue: after I used my email or something.
19:33 lue ah.
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21:17 rindolf Hi all.
21:17 diakopter hi
21:18 rindolf diakopter: what's up?
21:22 glow joined #perl6
21:27 diakopter rindolf: not all that much
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21:59 moritz_ lue: actually I need your email address, not your nick
22:00 lue rnddim at gmail dot com [I believed I used it for my account]
22:01 moritz_ lue: invitation sent
22:01 lue .oO(giving out email is probably the best time to use the "don't log this line" secret code)
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22:02 moritz_ lue: the IRC logs automatically turn the @ into images if it's between two word characters
22:03 moritz_ lue: and since the email appears in the rakudo commit log anyway, there's not much hiding anymore
22:03 sorear good * #perl6
22:04 colomon o\
22:04 diakopter gmail's spam filter is top-notch, anyway
22:05 sorear jnthn: hi
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22:13 jnthn sorear: hi
22:13 jnthn (though bye soon...need to sleep...early start tomorrow...)
22:14 sorear jnthn: I'm wondering how javolaz will work in a non-Parrot environment
22:15 jnthn ...javolaz?
22:15 jnthn ...is that the worst spelling of "zavolaj" ever? :)
22:15 jnthn sorear: I expect that has to be re-implemented per VM
22:16 jnthn sorear: Thus why I encourage pepole to write things against it rather than against Parrot's NCI.
22:16 jnthn I suspect it's not too bad to do a CLR version, and probably harder to do a JVM version.
22:17 jnthn But at least only one thing needs changing. :)
22:17 sorear Suppose I re-implement it for another VM
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22:17 sorear How do I get people to use the new implementation?
22:18 flussence .oO( maybe there needs to be a %*ENV{RAKUDOLIB} too )
22:20 jnthn sorear: I think of it more about implementation portability. So long as you implement the same interface or close enough, modules that target Zavolaj today will "just work" (provided the other Perl 6 features they need are in place) in the implemntation targetting the other VM.
22:24 plobsing .oO( javolaz might be a good name for zavolaj on jvm )
22:24 jnthn :)
22:24 flussence javalolz!
22:24 jnthn hehe :)
22:24 plobsing zavo
22:24 jnthn OK, sleeps... &
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22:26 plobsing using zavolaj over raw parrot nci also has the advantages of dealing with an API which *should* be interested in being user-friendly (in stead of minimal-but-functional), and people bugging jnthn in stead of me when things go wrong
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22:29 lue Does anybody happen to know of a service that would let me run a P6 website? (IIUC, this means "what (kind of) web service can I run perl6 on?"
22:31 flussence I guess anything that lets you run arbitrary binaries will... provided it's got the resources to run p6.
22:32 lue .oO[ I can easily find services that let me run Perl, but that's about 1 away from what I want :) ]
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22:33 flussence if it's got proper ssh, that's a good start
22:34 lue I already run rakudo and friends on a remote server (no sudo privs), could I properly run a website through it?
22:35 plobsing lue: use viv maybe?
22:37 sorear lue: use rakudo to generate html, output to ~/public_html
22:37 sorear I wonder how hard it would be to integrate Niecza with ASP.NET
22:38 flussence If you're thinking of FastCGI then it'll be slightly fiddly without root, as you'll have to run lighttpd or something on a port > 1024.
22:38 flatwhatson joined #perl6
22:38 sorear there's also HTTP::Server::Simple
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22:41 diakopter hm
22:41 sorear ?
22:41 diakopter big netsplit I guess
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23:16 lue .oO(must...fight....computer....to...post...advent...calendar.....)
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23:38 lue published (er, scheduled) advent post, afk!
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23:45 takadonet hey
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23:52 sorear hello
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23:55 takadonet sorear: you know anything about weak references in perl 5?
23:58 sorear yes

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