Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-12-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:23 IllvilJa Merry Christmas folks!
00:23 TimToady likewise
00:23 edenc ho ho ho
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00:39 diakopter oh oh oh
00:42 flussence bleh. told myself I was going to make that xmms thing do something useful today, but I'm too sick to concentrate.
00:42 diakopter take a bath; take a nap :)
00:43 flussence I've tried that, I'm all stuffed up and it's hard to even lie down :(
00:43 flussence (think I'm getting better today though)
00:43 diakopter mmm Phenylephrine
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01:19 colomon Merry Christmas to all!
01:28 diakopter on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests
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03:12 lue merry christmas to all in the appropriate time zones! \o/ [my timezone not one of them for ~4 hours]
03:12 lue .u santa
03:12 phenny lue: Sorry, no results for 'santa'.
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03:16 lue in a proto regex, I assume <...> refers to any/all of the multi regexes, right? [so for example, proto regex B { '!' <...> '!' } would match any of the multi regex B's inbetween a pair of ! ]
03:25 lue rakudo: grammar A { proto regex B { B {*} b }; multi regex B:sym<C> { Cc }; multi regex B:sym<D> { Dd }; }; A.parse("BCcb", :rule<B>)
03:26 p6eval rakudo cae7f9:  ( no output )
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03:52 flussence .
03:52 flussence oops, slipped.
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05:45 sorear good * #perl6
05:56 coldhead happy jesus, sorear
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08:10 moritz_ good morning
08:20 szabgab good morning
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08:25 sorear good morning moritz_
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08:46 * moritz_ -> travel
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09:14 mberends Merry Christmas #perl6
09:14 mberends TimToady++ # Advent #24 :-)
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11:27 tadzik hah, neutro used to be a 50-liner. Dood, old times
11:27 tadzik s/Do/Go/
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11:47 colomon tadzik++
11:50 tadzik funny how it didn't really change that much
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13:16 mberends tadzik: you could say the same about Linux, or Windows ;-)
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14:47 masak oh hai, zebras.
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14:52 bes joined #perl6
14:53 bes hi everyone
14:53 masak hi bes!
14:54 bes left #perl6
14:54 masak bye, bes.
14:58 mberends hi masak: a fine Yuletide to you.
15:00 huf so wait, yule is christmas?
15:00 masak left #perl6
15:00 huf oh i see
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15:13 masak http://perl6advent.wordpress.co​m/2010/12/25/merry-christmas-2/
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15:13 flussence yay
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15:14 masak mberends: hi there. season's greetings to you and yours.
15:15 mberends masak: :-)
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15:27 masak ank, our saddest little troll, is back: http://twitter.com/anktasti​c/status/18684856095473665
15:27 masak I wonder if the irony of the tweet is lost on him.
15:28 flussence stating the obvious much? :)
15:28 isBEKaml O.o ironically ironic!
15:28 isBEKaml btw, Merry X'mas,#perl6!
15:28 isBEKaml :)
15:29 masak merry Christmas, isBEKaml.
15:29 isBEKaml masak! you must've had good fun all day. :)
15:29 masak in Sweden, the main action takes place on the 24th.
15:30 masak but yes, I enjoyed myself.
15:30 isBEKaml I've seen pics of "Meanwhile, in Sweden..." on reddit. So, I guessed it must be good fun being there.
15:30 isBEKaml ;)
15:30 masak do they depict traffic situations?
15:31 isBEKaml no, just the snow. :D
15:31 masak oh, ok :)
15:31 isBEKaml and women/ladies drinking wine enjoying themselves. Well, you can guess. ;)
15:31 masak yeah, there are lots of women in Sweden. more than four million.
15:32 isBEKaml outnumbering the men? :O
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15:33 masak dunno exactly. I women live a bit longer, so that's possible. but not by many percent, if so.
15:33 tadzik was feather down?
15:34 isBEKaml masak: the traffic situation, if any, in Sweden - you must know that it's an hundred times more horrible here in India.
15:34 tadzik (looks like no)
15:34 isBEKaml I waste close to 4 hrs in commute everyday. :(
15:34 isBEKaml hi tadzik !
15:35 tadzik hi isBEKaml :)
15:35 isBEKaml tadzik: merry x'mas! good time, I guess?
15:36 * isBEKaml goes back to picking up perl6book where he last left off...
15:36 isBEKaml Seriously, I miss the fun here mostly due to the darn commute and work commitments. :|
15:37 tadzik isBEKaml: not bad, thank you :)
15:37 tadzik I'm just having some "fun" with my router
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15:37 isBEKaml </rant> <positive>Weekends and perl6! </positive>
15:38 isBEKaml tadzik: "fun"? that must be some dodgy router. :P
15:39 tadzik isBEKaml: it's just weird and does not work, that's all ;)
15:39 tadzik afk for now
15:41 isBEKaml I must delete the parrot_install folder before gen-parrot'ing?
15:42 gfldex you might have to
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15:43 mberends it's a good habit in general, because old parrot droppings might poison your new parrot
15:43 isBEKaml mberends: "parrot droppings"??!!! lol
15:44 isBEKaml I've deleted them and now onto compilation for a fresh Rakudo build. :)
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15:53 b1t_bug hii everybody4
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16:00 isBEKaml do we have anything like __DATA__ in perl6?
16:01 isBEKaml just so we can use some default filehandle?
16:03 isBEKaml never mind. found it in S26.
16:05 isBEKaml rakudo: say $*LINE
16:05 p6eval rakudo cae7f9:  ( no output )
16:05 isBEKaml rakudo: $*LINE.WHAT.say
16:05 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
16:05 isBEKaml rakudo: $?LINE.WHAT.say
16:05 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$?LINE' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/Cyg51yLbP8:22)␤»
16:06 isBEKaml rakudo: $*FILE.say
16:06 p6eval rakudo cae7f9:  ( no output )
16:09 pmurias sorear: what do i need to do build run/niecza?
16:13 mberends pmurias: on Linux, mainly mono-devel and related packages to run xbuild
16:15 pmurias i get an error with viv
16:16 pmurias https://gist.github.com/754931
16:19 pmurias mberends: i have STD installed from CPAN
16:21 mberends pmurias: I had to git reset my STD back to a commit of 20-Nov to get niecza to build.
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16:24 mberends pmurias: this wfm: https://github.com/perl6/std/commit/4b​3cf08a75e2c58b72a3a14518465b0f098cfafd
16:26 pmurias wfm?
16:26 mberends work[s|ed] for me :)
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16:27 * pmurias will wait for that to be sorted out
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16:32 TimToady I suspect you might be picking the wrong viv somewhere in your PATH
16:33 TimToady what does 'which viv' say?
16:34 pmurias /home/pawel/perl5/perlbrew/perls/current/bin/viv
16:35 TimToady mine says /usr/local/bin/viv
16:38 kthakore Merry Christmas!
16:38 TimToady And to you and yours!
16:38 kthakore :)
16:39 kthakore #perl6 definately more friendly then #perl
16:39 kthakore haha
16:39 kthakore I got shouted out of #perl
16:39 kthakore TimToady: thank you
16:41 mberends kthakore: just don't anger Camelia, she has a 3 metre wingspan and can suck out your brane!
16:41 kthakore haha
16:42 kthakore nah I couldn't do that to Camelia :D
16:55 pmurias TimToady: i use perlbrew so that is were i expect the viv from CPAN to be
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17:13 TimToady re anktastic, I thought it was a compliment, and was tempted to retweet it.  :)
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17:25 minotaur Whoo Hoo! Perl 6!
17:25 Trashlord woo hoo
17:25 TimToady the spirit of christmas future greets you :)
17:25 minotaur Why thank you.
17:25 minotaur I'm just glad to be here.
17:26 Juerd So... next Christmas then?
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17:26 TimToady and the next one :)
17:27 minotaur Indeed!
17:27 Juerd Sure, once something's ready it'll probably still be ready after a year
17:27 minotaur I'll admit, I'm new to these parts of the interwebs .... what I can do to help the Perl commune?
17:28 TimToady what are you interested in?
17:28 minotaur For the moment, I can help test stuff out .... I still need to sharpen my hacking skills to be able to contribute in any significant way.
17:29 minotaur I just finished building my new toy - a Phenom II box with Gentoo on it.
17:29 TimToady well, to start with, you can build rakudo and see how the test suite works on it
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17:30 Juerd l.
17:30 Juerd s/l.//
17:30 TimToady a lot of people have been doing testing by writing little applications of varioius sorts, and when they run into a bug that's not in the test suite, they report it
17:31 TimToady any reported bug will eventually have a test of some sort
17:31 TimToady or just nopaste the bug here, and masak++ will report it for you :)
17:31 minotaur Cool.
17:32 TimToady to get an idea of what is possible so far, I'd look at http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Perl_6
17:33 TimToady there are 248 examples of working code for small tasks there
17:33 minotaur rakudo-2010.10/2010.08.01/2010.07 ? I see three ebuilds (a gentoo equivalent of rpm) listed
17:33 minotaur Great! Thanks for pointers.
17:33 TimToady it's usually better to work against the git head
17:33 TimToady since it's regression tested, it's probably more capable than something from 07
17:34 TimToady and pretty stable
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17:35 minotaur I usually prefer using ebuilds - makes for cleaner patching when new stuff gets rolled out, imo. But I guess I can download the source and manually compile it.
17:41 TimToady at least for now, there aren't all that many dependencies into your OS that you'd have to worry about, and the head is quite a bit more capable than something 5 months old
17:43 minotaur Ah. 2010.10 is also available - which is from 2 months ago. In any case, I just started building 2010.11.
17:43 TimToady 12 will be out very shortly :)
17:44 TimToady but for some reason most of the developers are a bit distracted today...
17:44 minotaur I guess I'll have to post on the gentoo forums to ensure we (the gentoo gnu/linux users) skip straight to 12! :)
17:46 minotaur parrot is busy trudging away ...... weee!
17:46 TimToady there's also niecza, which is less far along but likely to be faster sooner
17:46 TimToady that requires mono though
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17:47 minotaur mono as in mod_mono?
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17:51 mberends mono as in http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page
17:51 minotaur Ah. done building rakudo; Passed make test!
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17:53 TimToady but I'd start playing with rakudo first
17:53 TimToady I've had an awful lot of fun with it, even if it is pretty slow yet
17:54 minotaur Cool.
17:59 mberends woohoo! Doctor Who Christmas Special begins in 1 minute on BBC1!
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18:09 * moritz_ back from traveling
18:09 moritz_ "you will never come to heaven with the bundesbahn \n cuase the bundesbahn is much too lahm"
18:10 moritz_ (lahm = slow, bundsbahn = old word for the german bahn ag)
18:10 moritz_ s/cuase/'cause/
18:10 * TimToady wonders if the Dec 25 entries should have a table of contents (with links) in chronological order
18:10 moritz_ TimToady: well volunteered :-)
18:11 TimToady I'm just a spectator here...
18:11 moritz_ maybe I'll find some time tomorrow
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18:29 mberends I'm editing in TimToady's suggestion, it will take a few more minutes
18:30 TimToady mberends++
18:30 isBEKaml I'll be going over all of perl6advent Dec 2010. :)
18:34 isBEKaml I got a question about MAIN. Is it possible to have named options? I could say ./foo.p6  -x 42 -y 24. x and y being named arguments. Not too different from GetOpt?
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18:34 inkjetunit hi. so. p6 currently requires p5 for bootstrap. is this phase going to last for long?
18:34 TimToady isBEKaml: certainly
18:35 TimToady inkjetunit: depends on the implementation
18:35 inkjetunit so there are many implementations aswell. hmm
18:36 sorear i don't think pugs has any p5 components
18:36 TimToady the niecza implementation (on mono) hopes to be free of p5 in a month or so
18:36 TimToady sure it does
18:37 lichtkind cheers
18:37 TimToady that's one of the ways it does regex
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18:37 TimToady (at least historically)
18:37 isBEKaml TimToady: let me just try that and get back. I think I just forgot the syntax, but vaguely recall something like being available with subs. :s
18:37 TimToady it could also use rakudo regex or pcre, iirc
18:38 TimToady I could be confabulating the p5 regex connection, but certainly pcre is p5ish
18:39 TimToady which is why pugs could do m:p5// much better than m//
18:41 TimToady isBEKaml: S06:3178
18:41 isBEKaml ah, now I get it. I just have to prefix the vars in the sub definition signature with a ":". :)
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18:43 isBEKaml https://gist.github.com/754991 ## nice
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18:43 isBEKaml I find it nice that MAIN subs automatically expand to GetOpt-Long format for argument parsing.
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19:00 mberends ok, links added to http://perl6advent.wordpress.co​m/2010/12/25/merry-christmas-2/
19:02 isBEKaml I"m currently at Day 4 and got a bit confused by the wording here: "Those of you with backgrounds doing floating point math are probably sputtering about the dangers of assuming that adding .1 repeatedly will add up to exactly 2. In Perl 6, that�s not quite such an issue because it will use Rat (ie fractional) math where possible."
19:02 isBEKaml The code snippet in question is: 1, 1.1 ... 2.01
19:02 isBEKaml Shouldn't 0.1 in the text be 0.01 ?
19:03 pmurias sorear: hi
19:03 pmurias sorear: is the github niecza supposed to work with the CPAN STD?
19:05 isBEKaml And, the context doesn't seem to convey what snippet the author's referring to, the first or the second.
19:05 isBEKaml colomon: ah. ^^
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19:10 sorear pmurias: I'm using github niecza with CPAN 20101111
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19:16 pmurias sorear: i get an error with a missing syml/CORE.lex.store
19:16 thegattaca howdy. im running mac os 10.5 on PPC G4 architecture... can i still get the compiler going on this hardware/platform? (getting started)
19:17 TimToady dunno if our mac experts are on today
19:18 thegattaca could try, but decided to join the chan and ask as part of opening conversation first ... i'll give it a shot now
19:19 TimToady welcome, in any case
19:19 thegattaca thanks
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19:23 pmurias sorear: i'm typing "xbuild" in a cloned repo of https://github.com/sorear/niecza
19:23 pmurias sorear: http://gist.github.com/755012
19:24 sorear what version of CPAN STD do you have?
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19:35 pmurias STD-20101111
19:37 thegattaca so far the config script is working with manually building parrot
19:37 thegattaca using rakudo star
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19:38 pmurias sorear: i could try with a fresh perl
19:38 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
19:39 sorear that would be good
19:39 sorear this is one of the reasons I want to ditch p5 - sucky deployment...
19:40 pmurias sorear: what's your perl version?
19:40 sorear TimToady: does / <.userdefined (.)> / mean / <.userdefined: rx { (.) }> /, or something more magical?
19:40 sorear 5.12.0
19:40 pmurias sorear: what to you want to ditch p5 for? p6?
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19:46 pmurias sorear: what's NAM? saw a mention of that in the TODO, but can't find anything about it in the #parrot logs
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19:47 pmurias sorear: do you want to make niecza run on lorito through NAM or implement NAM on .NET?
19:50 sorear NAM one of the IRs; it currently lies on the border between the .NET-specific and the nonspecific code
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19:50 sorear it also has a serialized form, and lies between the (Perl 5) front and middle ends, and the (C#) back end
19:51 sorear the main module for NAM is called CgOp; it predates the name
19:51 sorear I'd like to turn the front and middle parts into Perl 6 or another CLR language
19:52 sorear then deployment can just be "here, have 10MB of .dlls and .exes"
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19:53 masak <TimToady> re anktastic, I thought it was a compliment, and was tempted to retweet it.  :)
19:53 masak :D
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19:54 masak I'm afraid I had let him poison me a little, but the above helped :)
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19:56 Guest39886 hi Everyone
19:56 masak hi, Guest.
19:56 sorear Hello.
19:57 Guest39886 can someone tell me how to write a sub signature that "matches" the empty list?
19:58 Tene you mean no params at all?  or a param that can only match an empty array?
19:59 masak rakudo: sub foo([]) { say "empty list matched" }; foo([])
19:59 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«empty list matched␤»
20:00 Guest39886 like this: multi sub f ([$a, *@rest], $b, $c){… code with list} M multi sub (???, $b, $c){… code without list} (lispish/prologish list recursion way)
20:01 Tene Guest39886: [], like masak said
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20:03 Tene rakudo: multi sub f ([$head, *@tail]) { say 'more'; f(@tail) };  multi sub f([]) { say 'done' }; my @a = qw/foo bar baz lol/; f(@a);
20:03 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«more␤more␤more␤more␤done␤»
20:04 Guest39886 rakudo: multi sub sum([$a, @rest]){sum(@rest) + $a}; multi sub sum ([]){0}; sum([2,3])
20:04 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'sum'. Available candidates are:␤:(Positional  (Any $a, @rest))␤:(Positional  ())␤␤  in 'sum' at line 22:/tmp/xcft9O9tUe␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/xcft9O9tUe␤»
20:04 Guest39886 whats wrong with my multi definition?
20:04 sorear you said @rest
20:04 sorear needs to be *@rest
20:04 Tene rakudo: multi sub sum([$a, *@rest]){sum(@rest) + $a}; multi sub sum ([]){0}; sum([2,3])
20:05 p6eval rakudo cae7f9:  ( no output )
20:05 Tene rakudo: multi sub sum([$a, *@rest]){sum(@rest) + $a}; multi sub sum ([]){0}; say sum([2,3])
20:05 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«5␤»
20:05 Guest39886 sory
20:05 Tene Guest39886: np :)
20:09 masak we're mostly happy when people learn things in public. :)
20:10 masak it's useful for those of us who are thinking about how best to teach Perl 6.
20:13 Tene Also helps those who are less-public about their learning by watching others learn.
20:14 * masak .oO( learning voyeurs... )
20:14 Tene I like to watch.
20:15 masak Tene: there are these instruction videos, too.
20:18 masak the comments of http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2010/12/24​/day-24-yule-the-ancient-troll-tide-carol/ are like a little fishbowl view of the Perl 6 community and its surroundings. :)
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20:21 sorear masak: have you seen the slashdot comments feed?
20:22 lichtkind sorear: there were unusual positive :)
20:22 lichtkind uh im not masak :)
20:23 thegattaca config script completed on ppc ... now running make
20:25 masak left #perl6
20:33 Guest39886 wow now I can Prolog reverse in perl!
20:35 Guest39886 but I still have problems, I wanted to solve the knapsack 1/0 in Rosetta code, but somehow I'm still stuck with the Signatures
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20:44 diakopter pmurias: hi
20:44 pmurias diakopter: hi
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20:59 tadzik o/
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21:09 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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21:19 dalek nqp-rx: e920607 | bacek++ | src/ (3 files):
21:19 dalek nqp-rx: Remove usage of deprecated concat_s_s op
21:19 dalek nqp-rx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/e9206071d9
21:19 dalek nqp-rx: 01081a8 | bacek++ | src/stage0/ (4 files):
21:19 dalek nqp-rx: Update bootstrap files with concat_s_s remmoval
21:19 dalek nqp-rx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/01081a8ba6
21:20 lue hello o/
21:21 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_delta_tablet
21:23 pmurias sorear: a fresh perl 5.12.0 with STD installed raises the same error
21:24 pmurias no sorry
21:24 lue rakudo: grammar A { proto regex B { B {*} b }; multi regex B:sym<C> { Cc }; multi regex B:sym<D> { Dd }; }; A.parse("BCcb", :rule<B>)
21:24 p6eval rakudo cae7f9:  ( no output )
21:25 lue any idea why it's not DWIM ?
21:25 moritz_ what does it do?
21:25 moritz_ you didn't even produce any output
21:25 moritz_ how do you know what it does?
21:26 lue rakudo: grammar A { proto regex B { B {*} b }; multi regex B:sym<C> { Cc }; multi regex B:sym<D> { Dd }; }; say A.parse("BCcb", :rule<B>) # oops :)
21:26 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«␤»
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21:26 moritz_ rakudo: grammar A { proto regex B { B {*} b }; multi regex B:sym<C> { Cc }; multi regex B:sym<D> { Dd }; }; say ? A.parse("BCcb", :rule<B>)
21:26 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
21:26 lue .oO(I'm used to not having to type say in the REPL)
21:27 moritz_ probably just NYI
21:27 moritz_ note that rakudo's proto regex implementation is from times when {*} still meant "execute an action method here"
21:28 lue aww :( . It would be easier than typing B b in every regex. I'm having problems with my grammar since I introduced proto regexes, but I'll figure it out.
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21:28 lue would s/{*}/<...>/ fare much better?
21:28 moritz_ probably not
21:29 moritz_ but you can still have a  token wrapper { <common_prefix> <rule_you_actually_meant_to_write> }
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21:32 lue so would regex E { <prefixy> <B> <suffixy> } work?
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21:34 moritz_ I certainly hope (and expect) so
21:34 lopaway is now known as lopnor
21:34 * moritz_ -> sleep
21:35 lopnor is now known as lopaway
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22:02 pmurias sorear: niecza works here! ;)
22:05 pmurias sorear: does niecza run spectests?
22:06 tadzik no, it has no eval, and spectests like eval
22:07 lue when you match to a proto regex, can you see which one it matched? (e.g. if I match <B>, can I see if it's B:sym<C> or B:sym<D>?)
22:09 flussence the <C> is in <.sym>, iirc
22:11 lue $/<.sym> does nothing.
22:13 flussence this might be informative, dunno: https://github.com/moritz/json/blo​b/master/lib/JSON/Tiny/Grammar.pm
22:22 TimToady nothing is ever in <.sym>, because the purpose of the . is to suppress capture
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22:36 TimToady SoCal --> NorCal &
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22:53 masak sorear: yes, I found that earlier today.
22:53 lue hai masak o/
22:53 masak helue!
22:54 tadzik hey
22:54 lue Is there a way to see which regex of a multi/proto regex matched? (e.g. B:sym<C> or B:sym<D>)
22:56 masak sorear: generally, I found the slashdot comments to be unusually upbeat, and then the usual trolling about linenoise.
23:03 masak lue: that's something that an action method could do. I won't guarantee there isn't an even better method, but that's one solution, at least.
23:05 lue makes sense. I just happened to be focusing on the grammar right now, so I forgot about that part :)
23:07 sjn masak: ping
23:07 masak sjn: pong
23:08 sjn masak: would you mind going over your Go Open talk title/description for me?
23:08 sjn well, title is very fine
23:08 sjn description needs to be shorter :-/
23:08 sjn max three sentences/lines
23:08 masak oh, no problem :)
23:08 masak I can do that.
23:08 sjn excellent :)
23:09 masak let me think about it for a bit, and I'll send you an email. probably tomorrow.
23:09 sjn no hurry until after new-year's though :)
23:09 sjn just giving you an early heads-up
23:10 sjn a bio would be nice too
23:15 masak no problemo.
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23:25 masak 'night, zebras.
23:25 masak left #perl6
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23:28 lue rakudo: say ":a<b>" ~~ /<?{Perl6::Grammar.parse($0, :rule<colonpair>)}>/
23:28 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«␤»
23:28 lue still doesn't work, it seems. afk!
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