Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-12-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:10 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
00:13 sjn whoa
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00:48 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
00:53 lichtkind night
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02:24 shortcircuit minotaur: Gentoo user? Cool. (I have a soft sport for Gentoo, and return to it whenever I have time.)
02:26 shortcircuit minotaur: rakudo does monthly releases. Those ebuilds mentioned sound like they refer to separate release versions. The newest you listed is at least a month old, if I'm not mistaken. If you have time, you might poke the ebuild's maintainer and see if he could use any assistance.
02:26 shortcircuit Gah. I should read more backlog before replying to something like that. :)
02:27 flussence_ I was thinking of doing git ebuilds for parrot/rakudo myself actually, but I'd have to go learn ebuild syntax to do that. bleh
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02:29 shortcircuit I barely know enough about Gentoo to reliably admin a box. I haven't even glanced in the direction of maintaining ebuilds.
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02:30 shortcircuit I hear maintaining an ebuild isn't hard, but any time someone tells me "that's not hard, just...", there are at least half a dozen implicit concepts I'm missing.
02:30 shortcircuit s/maintaining/creating/
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02:33 flussence maintaining isn't the hard part, 99% of the time that's just a `cp` between releases. It's figuring out how to write one in the first place...
02:34 flussence it's easy enough to update the 2010.10 -> 2010.12, but git stuff works a bit differently...
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03:58 minotaur shortcircuit: Yeah, building a Gentoo box can be fairly time consuming. But I've found that over time maintaining it isn't all that difficult.
03:59 minotaur It really helps that the package manager (portage) is probably one of the best around, imo. Coupled with the power of USE flags.
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07:04 prabu hi there, I'm trying to write a Parrot PGE, token to recognize a unicode character , but its not working, can anyone help me.
07:04 prabu i'm new to perl
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07:07 prabu can anyone help me with writing a token to recognize unicode?
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07:10 TimToady do you have libicu installed?
07:10 TimToady parrot tends to depend on that...
07:10 prabu i'm not sure, how to checkt
07:10 TimToady what kind of system are you on?
07:11 prabu xubuntu
07:12 TimToady "locate libicu" would be one way to see what's out there
07:13 prabu lists a lot of /usr/...
07:13 sorear does it list any .a files?
07:13 sorear er wait no
07:13 prabu lists .so files
07:13 sorear wrong approach
07:14 sorear try ldd /path/to/parrot.so
07:14 TimToady hmm, my parrot_config says has_icu = '0'
07:14 TimToady which is odd, since I do have it
07:16 TimToady anyhoo, parrot should be able to handle unicode
07:16 TimToady if you are using rakudo from the REPL, there are known problems with readline and unicode
07:17 TimToady running from a file helps with that
07:17 TimToady but if you're using bare PGE, dunno
07:17 TimToady most of the perl 6 regex work is now in npq-rx, not pge
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07:20 prabu TimToady: this is my token: token ident { '\x{0B85}' }
07:20 prabu do you find anything wrong in this
07:20 TimToady \x doesn't work inside single quotes
07:20 TimToady double quotes might work
07:20 prabu ok i'l check
07:20 TimToady that is, they ought to, whether pge does it or not
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07:21 TimToady if your script is in utf-8, you can just put the actual character there
07:21 TimToady 'அ'
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07:22 prabu ok
07:22 TimToady did that show up okay in your irc?
07:23 TimToady apart from odd character width issues
07:23 prabu yes
07:23 TimToady gnome-terminal is not very smart about character widths...
07:23 TimToady good
07:23 prabu yes
07:23 prabu i can see it clearly in xchat
07:24 TimToady should show up well in the log too, since that's proportional font
07:24 prabu when using double quote I get "unrecognized backslash sequence"
07:25 TimToady oh wait, it's \x[] in Perl 6 not \x{}
07:25 TimToady we try to reserve {} for closures...
07:25 prabu oh! i'l check
07:26 TimToady p6 is different from p5 that way...
07:26 TimToady but generally, if it really is a literal character it's better to use it directly, so at least native speakers can read it
07:27 TimToady and anyone else can look it up if they need to
07:27 TimToady .u அ
07:27 phenny U+0B85 TAMIL LETTER A (அ)
07:27 prabu ok, this time i didn't get any error, but when parsing it says unrecognized token,
07:28 prabu my input is from a file, i just have the single letter typed in that file.
07:28 TimToady hmm, should default to utf8, I'd think
07:29 TimToady how are you reading the file?  .slurp will keep a newline...
07:30 TimToady and how are you matching the grammar?  ~~ doesn't work for that
07:31 TimToady you need MyGrammar.parse($string)
07:31 prabu i'm running the parrot to create the executable
07:31 prabu actually i'm writing a language with parrot
07:31 TimToady hmm, don't know much about that api
07:32 TimToady #parrot at irc.perl.org might have more help
07:32 prabu TimToady: Thanks
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07:33 TimToady otoh most folks are pretty heavily holidayed here at the moment
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10:04 * mberends travel UK -> NL
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10:53 pmurias sorear: hi
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11:01 dalek perl6.org: f28f011 | moritz++ | source/documentation/index.html:
11:01 dalek perl6.org: [doc] link to advent 2010
11:01 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/p​erl6.org/commit/f28f01131c
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12:31 niella hi all, does perl6 play well with DBI yet?
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12:57 masak niella: I know people have had some success with zavolaj and DBI.
12:58 masak lue: it doesn't work like that. you're calling .parse within an ongoing .parse call -- even if the inner one matches, it doesn't advance the .pos of the oter one. (and it's not meant to)
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13:01 niella masak thanks for that.
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13:30 Layla hola, does latest perl6 rakudo implementation have lookbehind? (especially variable length lookbehind) ?
13:32 Axius rakudo: say 834 * 4;
13:32 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«3336␤»
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13:44 ady rakudo: 2+2
13:44 p6eval rakudo cae7f9:  ( no output )
13:44 ady rakudo: say 2+2
13:44 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«4␤»
13:45 ady msg p6eval rakudo: say 3*3
13:45 ady rakudo: 42 + 42
13:45 p6eval rakudo cae7f9:  ( no output )
13:45 ady rakudo: 42 + 42
13:45 p6eval rakudo cae7f9:  ( no output )
13:46 ady rakudo: say 21*2
13:46 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«42␤»
13:46 ady std: say 21*2
13:46 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
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13:51 colomon rakudo: say 42 + 42
13:51 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«84␤»
13:52 colomon doh!  he already left.  :(
13:52 colomon oh, he might have already figured it out himself.
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14:10 allbery_b they did
14:11 allbery_b no idea what they were doing
14:11 allbery_b but 2nd message from them had the "say"
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15:12 pmurias sorear: ping
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15:53 pat_is_learning_ hi
15:54 TimToady hi, though I'll have to run away almost immediately
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15:55 pat_is_learning_ how can I store a named sub in a function? (I want the routine Object)
15:55 TimToady what do you mean by "store in a function"?
15:56 pat_is_learning_ sorry meant variable
15:56 TimToady $x = &foo;
15:56 TimToady rakudo: sub foo { say "hi" }; my $x = &foo;  $x();
15:56 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«hi␤»
15:56 lopaway is now known as lopnor
15:56 TimToady rakudo: sub foo { say "hi" }; my $x = &foo;  $x.WHAT.say
15:56 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«Sub()␤»
15:56 pat_is_learning_ no special \ like in perl5?
15:57 TimToady nope, everything is already a ref in P6, to the first approx
15:57 TimToady and &foo just means the sub as a noun, unlike in p5
15:58 TimToady gotta run, but if you have a Q and it seems like no one is here, just ask the question anyway, and someone will answer it later, and you can check the irc log athttp://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today
15:58 TimToady http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today even
15:59 TimToady later &
15:59 pat_is_learning_ bye
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16:14 thegattaca on the rakudo howto page ( http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo ) there is a link to the perl 6 test suite ( http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/spec/ ) which leads to a 'forbidden' page
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16:38 arcus hello
16:39 arcus I'm new to perl6, can anyone recommend a gut tutorial to learn perl6.
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16:41 pat_is_learning_ I personally liked http://www.youtube.com/view_​play_list?p=C1B0B36F1196AF53 this playlist
16:41 pat_is_learning_ but I'm also kind of new to perl6, maybe there's something better out there
16:45 arcus rakudo: say "hello"
16:45 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«hello␤»
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16:48 pat_is_learning_ what does «Null PMC access» in type() mean?
16:50 flussence usually that someone needs to write a better error message there :)
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16:57 pumphaus rakudo: print "Hello"
16:57 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«Hello»
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17:06 colomon flussence: actually, "Null PMC access" means something is REALLY broken.
17:10 flussence in my experience, it means I'm making some stupid and obvious mistake...
17:13 tadzik it's rather like a segfault, but in Rakudo, ko?
17:13 tadzik s/ko/no/
17:13 flussence K.O.!
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17:15 allbery_b segfault in the prrot virtual machine
17:15 allbery_b parrot even
17:15 allbery_b some PIR did the equivalent of reading *((char *) 0)
17:15 arnsholt Yeah, null PMC is essentially Parrot's NULL pointer
17:16 tadzik that's what I thought
17:16 flussence I got quite a lot of them when messing around with zavolaj
17:16 tadzik :)
17:17 flussence (and actual null-deref segfaults, too)
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17:26 tadzik when is star coming out?
17:27 flussence in time for new year's day
17:34 colomon \o/
17:36 tadzik just read a 7th Dec #phasers, about moving a Rakudo development from place. Would it be hard to create a TODO list with knowlegde prerequisites for each thing? Or dividing it into subtasks, so it'd be easier to pick up for newbies like me :)
17:39 tadzik Really important items – 1 ?     module installer
17:39 tadzik hrm
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17:43 tadzik 2 ?     other S02 data types -- KeySet, KeyBag (A) – that souds doable
17:46 tadzik colomon: got a while?
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17:49 colomon not exactly, but if you ask, I'll try to answer.
17:50 colomon (computer set up in kitchen, working on cooking and cleaning)
17:51 tadzik oh. I'd like to try implementing KeyHash for Rakudo, and I think whether inheriting from Hash is a right thing. According to my poor spec knowledge it shold do Associative, but my first (maybe wrong) thought is making it a special king of Hash
17:51 tadzik s/king/kind/
17:53 colomon my inclination is that's not the right approach -- violates liskov
17:54 colomon my second inclination is to think I'm actually thinking of KeyBag, and I need to check the spec.
17:54 tadzik liskov?
17:55 colomon might be spelled wrong.
17:55 tadzik KeyHash is a Hash that "nulls" a value when set to a default value
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17:55 colomon If A is a B, then you should be able to use A wherever you use B.
17:55 colomon may be spelled wrong.
17:56 colomon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/​Liskov_substitution_principle
17:57 tadzik ah, sure
17:57 colomon I suspect they should be related classes,  but neither derived from the other.
17:57 colomon but I certainly haven't looked closely into it!
17:58 tadzik so, question for the insiders: Hash is EnumMap, not only does Associative. What is an EnumMap? Should KeyHash be an EnumMap too?
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18:05 tadzik also, I'd feel glad to know what the user is trying to store when he/she is trying to store. Would that require some lowlevel mangling or what? I'd love some tips/guidance
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18:18 colomon tadzik: apologies that I don't have a better quick grasp on the different Associative types.
18:19 tadzik colomon: no problem
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18:20 colomon at a quick notion: it might be better to make a quick and dirty module which provides the various Key types, just so that we can get some experience using them.
18:21 pat_is_learning_ rakudo: say .(3,1) given { $^a > 2 ?? &?ROUTINE($^a-1, $^b*$^a) !! $^b}
18:21 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &?ROUTINE␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/5KUgq6tfMo␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/5KUgq6tfMo␤»
18:21 pat_is_learning_ ??
18:21 pat_is_learning_ pugs: say .(3,1) given { $^a > 2 ?? &?ROUTINE($^a-1, $^b*$^a) !! $^b}
18:21 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
18:22 tadzik colomon: that's what I thought about, yet I have no luck locating any place in rakudo code when a value is assigned to a key in a hash, and that's what KeyHash needs to look into
18:23 colomon tadzik: for a quick and dirty implementation, I might make it so KeyHash has Hash, rather than is.
18:25 tadzik colomon: that would be the easiest one, yes
18:28 tadzik but I still don't know what actually happens when someone does an assignment on a hash element: what gets called, what can I inspect
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18:43 tadzik pugs: my $a is KeyHash; say $a.WHAT
18:43 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Scalar␤»
18:43 tadzik pugs: my $a is KeyHash = a => 5; say $a.WHAT
18:43 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Pair␤»
18:44 tadzik oh you
18:44 tadzik pugs: my $a is KeyHash = a => 5, b => 7; say $a.WHAT
18:44 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Pair␤»
18:48 tadzik http://wklej.org/id/444886/ -- why is it so dead silent? It could at least crash, or something
18:53 flussence the second "role KeyHash" defines that to the end of the file, put {}s after it (which will make it a lot more error-y)
18:55 tadzik oh, ok
18:55 tadzik so how do I create a "prototype" of this role, so the below line would know it's about ints?
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19:48 tadzik quick offtopic survey for linuxers: which distro do you use?
19:52 alyx tadzik: slackware on laptop, alpine everywhere else.
19:53 flussence gentoo at home, ubuntu at $dayjob
19:55 flussence ...and I got a printer yesterday, which means I have to reinstall everything with cups support :(
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19:55 alyx flussence: ouch O_o
19:56 tadzik oh, I remember why I I lived Dentoo :)
19:56 flussence "8 reinstalls"... oh well, not so bad.
19:57 Axius joined #perl6
19:57 tadzik erm, loved gentoo
19:57 tadzik typing colemak is hard with a lad
19:59 Eth4n left #perl6
20:04 tadzik flussence: is no one caring about Parrot and Rakudo on Gentoo?
20:07 flussence afaik, one of the devs wrote the ebuilds, but they don't bother updating them
20:10 Axius left #perl6
20:11 flussence (wait a minute, this printer takes sd cards. I don't even need to mess with my PC)
20:11 tadzik oh come on! :)
20:11 flussence yeah, I'm cheating a bit, but it's a kodak and from what I've been reading, they pretend Linux doesn't exist.
20:12 flussence so I'll humour them
20:12 tadzik :)
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20:52 masak hi, zebras.
20:52 tadzik hi giraffe
20:52 masak :)
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20:52 masak well, I do tend to stick my neck out...
20:53 masak I made a blog post: http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/​im-doing-science-and-im-still-alive
20:53 tadzik want to try touching KeyHash with me?
20:53 tadzik I made some pityful trials
20:54 masak I saw you had some questions about those things in the backlog.
20:54 masak I'll be happy to share what little I've been able to figger out myself about it. :)
20:55 masak don't be surprised if my connection fails though. I'm on a bus again.
20:55 masak an EnumMap is a map of Enum objects. an Enum object is the smallest constituent of an enumeration: a key and a value.
20:56 masak the big difference between an Enum and a Pair is that the latter's value is read-write.
20:56 masak correspondingly, a Hash can have its values changed.
20:59 tadzik but Hash is not just a bunch of Pairs
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21:00 masak be careful with that word, "is" :)
21:01 masak there's a whole movement called E-Prime which strives to speak without the word "is" in its different forms. it sits at the bottom of a number of misunderstandings and logical errors, they maintain.
21:02 masak a Hash can be thought of as a collection of unique-key Pairs. unless I missed something.
21:03 tadzik well, the point is not being a list, O(1) access and stuff
21:03 masak I didn't say it's a list.
21:03 masak even you said "bunch". :)
21:03 tadzik :)
21:03 tadzik alright
21:04 masak but anyway, having Hash derive from EnumMap always surprised me slightly.
21:04 masak I kinda-sorta see why, with Hash being a read-write version of EnumMap.
21:04 masak but to me, that's not a particularly overwhelming reason to derive stuff.
21:08 masak` joined #perl6
21:08 masak` dropped out. now I'm here again.
21:08 masak` seems to me a KeyHash[::T] is a variant of a Hash, one that erases the differences between non-existent keys and keys with the default value of ::T.
21:09 tadzik I thought alike
21:09 masak` and then you essentially get KeySet and KeyBag for free, it seems.
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21:11 masak` is now known as masak
21:12 masak S32/Containers:1058: role KeyHash[::T, $default = Any]
21:12 masak this seems wrongish to me.
21:12 masak better would be to have type ::T know its default. it'll need to, anyway.
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21:14 tadzik that mislead me too
21:15 masak` I'm glad we seem to be following the same path here :)
21:15 masak` 'course, S32 is hardly normative. :P
21:16 masak` so maybe this is a good time to exercise good judgment and ignore or even change it.
21:16 masak` imagine instantiating a KeyHash[Int]. it'll fail as soon as it tries to store an Any in an Int slot.
21:17 masak` or a KeyHash[Int, "OH HAI"]. not too useful either.
21:17 tadzik hmm
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21:20 masak`` is now known as masak
21:20 masak the design, seems to me, is well-intended, but too complicated.
21:20 masak role KeyHash[::T] would be better.
21:22 tadzik so what would default be?
21:22 masak it seems to me that formalizing what is meant by a "default" for all the built-in types would be useful, too.
21:22 masak` left #perl6
21:22 tadzik nothing by default?:)
21:22 masak for Int it's 0, for Str it's "", for Bool it's False...
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21:22 masak we take this for granted, but it's nowhere in the spec.
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21:22 masak what's the default for a user-defined enumeration?
21:23 masak the default for a user-defined class is probably the type object.
21:23 masak` joined #perl6
21:24 masak` but it's not for Int, which makes Int different somehow. and if it's different, it's different for a *reason*, for example because it's been stated explicitly somewhere in Int's definition.
21:24 tadzik masak`: "0" is false too
21:24 masak` rakudo: say ?"0"
21:24 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
21:25 masak`` joined #perl6
21:25 tadzik that's what broke the same idea in my mind too :)
21:25 masak`` but I still think "" is the default for Str, not "0".
21:27 masak left #perl6
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21:30 masak so, anyway.
21:31 arnsholt masak: Interestingly, I find science to be just as much right-brain as left =)
21:31 masak I can't argue *against* "0" being the default for Str, except that it "feels wrong".
21:31 masak arnsholt: yes, I wrote it that way partly to provoke.
21:32 masak`` left #perl6
21:32 tadzik masak: I had the same feeling. Just "Pass a false value to erase won't work now"
21:32 masak compared to being disciplined and following a TOTE cycle, science is a fairly unregulated activity. even if it, too, has a goal in mind.
21:33 pmurias masak: i noticed you started submiting bugs for niecza, what's your experience of using niecza so far?
21:33 y3llow_ joined #perl6
21:33 masak tadzik: one current limitation of Hash in Rakudo is that they can only have Str keys.
21:33 pothos_ joined #perl6
21:33 masak pmurias: after the initial surprise at how far along it is, I'm delighted by being obstructed so much. :)
21:34 masak haven't felt that with Rakudo since the alpha->ng transition, and even it was just a weak shadow of Rakudo in 2008.
21:34 y3llow left #perl6
21:34 tadzik masak: oh, so we have it easier now :)
21:34 y3llow_ is now known as y3llow
21:34 masak boy. yes.
21:35 tadzik a'right
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21:35 pothos_ is now known as pothos
21:35 masak pmurias: example: found niecza didn't have any .split method. meant to make a small one myself with .index. found niecza didn't have .index either. ended up using ~~
21:35 pmurias masak: and speed wise how does it compare?
21:36 masak it's faster.
21:36 masak which is refreshing.
21:36 masak the parse phase is slow, though.
21:36 tadzik but but. I copied all the Hash code into a new class, then I was trying to locate some method that sets the value so I'd be able to set a trap inside, but I couldn't find any
21:38 masak rakudo: my $a = 3; $a &&= 4; say $a
21:38 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«4␤»
21:39 masak tadzik: do it again, but simpler this time :)
21:39 tadzik even simplier?
21:39 masak yes.
21:40 tadzik I tried to assign a "die" so it'd print a backtrace, but it didn't
21:40 masak the smallest part of functionality you can think of, in the most controlled conditions you can think of.
21:40 masak which for me is usually a one-liner on the terminal, but YMMV.
21:41 masak hm. need to start packing up. almost at my destination now.
21:42 masak see you on a more stable connection, #perl6.
21:42 masak left #perl6
21:42 tadzik oh look, his connection died again!
21:43 pmurias what is the repo for the synopsis?
21:46 diakopter perl6/specs
21:50 pmurias thanks
21:50 pmurias left #perl6
22:06 lue howdy #perl6
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22:32 dalek book: 738eb39 | (Przemysław Wesołek)++ | bin/book-to-latex:
22:32 dalek book: TT sends output to STDOUT, removed extra print().
22:32 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/738eb3979b
22:43 vastak joined #perl6
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23:02 lue how do you negate in a perl6 regex? Things like \S, except with a named regex (things like <snowman>)
23:09 ggoebel left #perl6
23:12 lue nvm, found it.
23:12 Bucciarati is now known as Buccia`27C3
23:12 tadzik so how? :)
23:13 ggoebel joined #perl6
23:15 lue with <-alpha> ( <!alpha> is counterintuitively not the solution )
23:20 lidden left #perl6
23:21 dalek book: c696fe7 | (Przemysław Wesołek)++ | lib/book.sty:
23:21 dalek book: Added missing TeX dimension.
23:21 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/c696fe7234
23:24 ggoebel left #perl6
23:25 dalek sprixel: 1e39860 | diakopter++ | / (14 files):
23:25 dalek sprixel: sprixel/perlesque WIP commit
23:25 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/1e39860ef3
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23:55 masak oh hai from a more stationary point of view ;)
23:55 masak I find this Twitter exchange a relative success: http://twitter.com/sotechx​/status/18477993152217088 http://twitter.com/carlmasa​k/status/18698308276981760 http://twitter.com/sotechx​/status/18716138187792384 http://twitter.com/carlmasa​k/status/19019726873169920 http://twitter.com/sotechx​/status/19039233339559936
23:56 masak sometimes all people really want is straight answers.
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