Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-12-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady but only if successful
00:00 flussence will that return false if someone stuck a >/dev/null on the command line?
00:00 TimToady no
00:01 flussence /dev/full?
00:01 TimToady that always succeeds
00:01 masonkramer perl6: my $rv = say("hi"); say $rv.WHAT; say $rv;
00:01 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«hi␤Bool()␤Bool::True␤»
00:01 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«hi␤Bool␤1␤»
00:01 TimToady but yes, output to a full disk should fail.
00:01 masonkramer perl6: say("hi").WHAT
00:01 p6eval pugs, rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«hi␤»
00:01 flussence hm, it returns true there. Just tried.
00:01 TimToady or to a shutdown socket
00:02 TimToady that's weird
00:02 masonkramer so if I capture the return value of &say in a variable, I get that expected behavior.
00:02 masonkramer if I do it immediately,
00:02 masonkramer jah
00:02 sorear um, shouldn't I/O errors throw a (delayed) exception?
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00:03 TimToady perl6: "0".say.WHAT.say
00:03 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«0␤Bool()␤»
00:03 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«0␤Bool␤»
00:03 TimToady perl6: "42".say.WHAT.say
00:03 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«42␤Bool()␤»
00:03 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«42␤Bool␤»
00:03 TimToady oh, it's probably the listop bug
00:04 TimToady oh, no, it's my brane
00:04 TimToady duh
00:04 masonkramer yeah
00:04 masonkramer say("hi").WHAT.say
00:04 masonkramer works fine
00:04 masonkramer neeeeevermind
00:05 masonkramer is there a special case in the perl6 repl that suppresses printing of the return value of say?
00:05 TimToady sorear: it should fail with an I/O error, yes, but not necessarily throw it
00:05 TimToady just like any other failure
00:05 TimToady sorear: did you see my speculation about @! the other day?
00:06 TimToady and calling CATCH for each error in @!
00:06 TimToady masonkramer: dunno
00:11 sorear TimToady: no
00:11 sorear TimToady: I don't really have a deep understanding of the failures system
00:13 TimToady the idea is to replace $!.pending with @!, more or less, and treat all unhandled exceptions equally, other than feeding them to CATCH in one order or the other
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00:16 sorear Mostly I think seeing how p6exceptions are used in practice would help
00:16 TimToady http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2010-12-18#i_3102010 and following
00:17 sorear but I probably need to implement them before that can happen :)
00:17 sorear thanks.
00:17 TimToady which was, in fact, a response to your http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2010-12-18#i_3100836
00:19 TimToady my ruminations are scattered over about an hour
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00:22 sorear TimToady: when a function returns, does @! become a thrown exception, or is it appended to the caller's @! ?
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00:24 TimToady I suspect it should throw if it reaches the end of a function with non-empty @!
00:24 TimToady (after allowing CATCH to weed it)
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00:25 TimToady but perhaps the user could pick the other behavior somehow if wanted
00:25 TimToady fail if @! or some such
00:25 colomon http://clojure.blip.tv/file/4503162/  -- wondering how to do this in p6.  But brainpower very low at the moment...
00:26 TimToady (which would presumably have to be done in a LEAVE)
00:28 TimToady yes, LEAVE { @!.fail if @! } or some such could probably be made to propagate to the outer @!, if default is to throw
00:28 TimToady since LEAVE is outside of CATCH
00:29 TimToady or use UNDO { fail }
00:29 TimToady I suspect any fail should also copy out any @! to the outer @!
00:31 TimToady fail should not hide inner exceptions; only CATCH should be able to handle exceptions
00:31 TimToady I think...
00:32 sorear TimToady: how does 'try' interact with @! ?
00:33 TimToady try that supplies a default CATCH would handle all the @!
00:34 TimToady it would just handle all the exceptions one at a time now, instead of throwing away $! and its $!.pending
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00:35 sorear TimToady: how does try communicate @! to the surrounding code?
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00:35 TimToady try doesn't have to do that
00:35 TimToady try delegates all that to the CATCH and its block
00:35 TimToady try with an explicit CATCH is a no-op
00:36 sorear there's a disquieting amount of redundant code between niecza's implementations of 'class', 'role', and parameteric role
00:36 sorear TimToady: so try { } with no CATCH throws the exceptions completely out and they can't be accessed?
00:36 TimToady correct
00:36 TimToady hmm, or not
00:37 TimToady I think we're confusing two different uses of @! here...
00:37 sorear Can I tell if try { } threw an exception?
00:37 Tene I thoguht that try set its exception as handled, and then pushed it in $!
00:39 TimToady Tene: we're talking about a slightly different model that gets rid of .pending (in response to some of your questions of Dec 18th)
00:40 * Tene nods.
00:40 TimToady but sorear++ is correct that we need to detangle "last handle exception(s)" from in-flight exceptions (either unthrown or thrown)
00:40 TimToady *handled
00:40 Tene Yes.
00:41 TimToady the only time $! can really mean an in-flight exception is inside of CATCH (and maybe in LEAVE-like blocks)
00:41 perigrin sorear: there is a line of thought that a class is simply a (set of) role(s) applied to the empty class
00:42 TimToady but such blocks are also normal code that might want to refer to a handled exception, so we can't just overload $! for that
00:42 TimToady whoops, holiday visitors, will think on this as we drive to Seattle tomorrow...
00:43 colomon have a nice holiday visit!
00:44 Tene Have nice holiday visitors, too!
00:44 lue afk
00:44 Tene try could return the @! of its block.
00:45 Tene try {} == { ...; CATCH { @!.handled; return @! } }
00:45 Tene approximately
00:45 sorear Tene: what does it return to?
00:46 Tene my @success = try { ... }
00:46 Tene erm, @fail
00:46 colomon rakudo: say +({ Any } ... *.defined)
00:46 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«0␤»
00:46 colomon stupid, stupid programmer
00:47 colomon rakudo: say !Any
00:47 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
00:47 colomon stupid, stupid, stupid programmer
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01:04 sorear 220, wow
01:04 sorear we're even higher now than we were on the cusp of Star
01:08 perigrin 7 more and you beat #moose
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01:16 colomon making sure you deal with the marginal cases in p2 is a brain-bender.
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01:16 sorear p2?
01:16 masonkramer joined #perl6
01:16 colomon or perhaps that's the vicodin talking.
01:16 colomon masak's contest, problem 2.
01:17 sorear vicodin?  what happened? D:
01:17 colomon surgery today, to fix an umbilical hernia.
01:19 colomon I'm tired and a little sore, fuzzy and tired.
01:20 colomon pretty sure I didn't mean to type tired twice there, either.  :)
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01:23 arnsholt colomon: If it helps, masak has said that points on the border of the polygon can be handled in an implementation-defined manner =)
01:23 colomon arnsholt: sure, the issue is how to robustly handle things.
01:23 arnsholt Heh. True
01:24 arnsholt I think I've got a pretty simple and robust solution though
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03:39 * GinoMan can't wait for perl6
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03:42 kthakore p6eval: say ' GinoMan it's already here '
03:43 flussence rakudo: say 'a' Zx 1..10
03:43 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«a␤»
03:43 flussence rakudo: say 'a' Xx 1..10
03:43 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa​aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa␤»
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03:47 sorear So many new people!
03:54 GinoMan Ok, I mean, stableizes to where someone can write a book about it, it's used in production, and it's stable
03:54 kthakore GinoMan: there is a perl6 book.
03:54 diakopter there was a book being written 5-6 years ago by brian d foy & merlyn
03:55 kthakore diakopter: Hmm my impression was perl6 has changed alot since then?
03:55 diakopter true
03:56 diakopter they were updating it heavily 2-3 years ago, but it's on hiatus again I think
03:58 dalek sprixel: d464ada | diakopter++ | / (10 files):
03:58 dalek sprixel: YAWIPC; I'm too good to write descriptive commit messages (joking of course). The real reason is that I'm not good at coding in small increments; sorry!
03:58 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/d464ada706
04:03 GinoMan or maybe I should put it this way, "I can't wait until I can put #!/usr/bin/perl at the top of my script and it's perl 6 on most systems"
04:05 GinoMan what's the perl6 book?
04:05 sorear That will never happen.  /usr/bin/perl6 is incompatible with Perl 5 and will stay that way
04:06 sorear As far as being available on most systems - I don't think that will happen, either
04:06 sorear It was a historical accident that all the major Linux distributions wound up depending on Perl in the base system
04:07 sorear (also, many distributions are forking perl these days.  If you want a Real Perl, you need to tell users to install it.)
04:10 diakopter sorear: re "That will never happen.  /usr/bin/perl6 is incompatible with Perl 5 and will stay that way" - that's wrong
04:11 sorear Any program installed as /usr/bin/perl MUST interpret Perl 5 by default
04:11 diakopter sorear: according to the spec, /usr/bin/perl6's default behavior is (near-)perfect Perl 5 compatibility
04:11 sorear It may be able to switch into Perl 6 mode
04:11 allbery_b didn't the spec have to change on that though?
04:11 sorear But that won't be the default, because it's incompatible
04:11 diakopter ccording to the spec, /usr/bin/perl6's default behavior is (near-)perfect Perl 5 compatibility
04:11 allbery_b wa originally "use v6;" but that caused some "time travel" issues
04:11 diakopter according to the spec, /usr/bin/perl6's default behavior is (near-)perfect Perl 5 compatibility.  to switch to Perl 6 mode,  'use v6;' is near the top, or 'package something... '
04:12 diakopter in S01
04:12 allbery_b I thionk you need to check the latest spec.  I seem to recall that got killed because it caused some serious issues with (1) having to restart parse (2) inability to use perl6 -e sanely (3) some other similar warts
04:12 diakopter The perl interpreter will assume that it is being fed Perl 5 code unless the code starts with a "class" or "module" keyword, or you specifically tell it you're running Perl 6 code in some other way, such as by:
04:12 diakopter ^^ in S01
04:12 diakopter today
04:13 diakopter http://perlcabal.org/syn/S01.html
04:13 sorear The "perl" interpreter
04:14 diakopter referring to a Perl 6 compiler/interpreter
04:18 diakopter otherwise the first part of that bullet "Migration is important." wouldn't make sense
04:19 lue So does a Perl 6 program run in P5 mode by default? [or P5 compatible?]
04:19 kthakore lue: Perl 6 and perl 5 have different interperter and are considered different languages
04:20 lue I know. /me looks at S01 to get a better idea of the discussion
04:23 lue [S01] from what I'm getting, A Perl 6 interpreter *does not* take the input as P6 until told so.
04:25 diakopter which agrees with discussion here on #perl6 on many many occasions over the past few years
04:26 diakopter allbery_b: what do you think got killed?
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04:26 lue I'm someone who has never touched Perl 5 [ well, I tried it for 5 minutes, then decided P6 was better :) ] : Why would a Perl*6* interpreter want to assume Perl*5* by _default_ ?
04:27 sorear A *Perl* interpreter must continue to take input as Perl 5
04:27 GinoMan so then... the book on Perl6
04:27 GinoMan ?
04:27 kthakore GinoMan: ah sorry
04:27 sorear Rakudo can get away with installing as 'perl6'
04:27 GinoMan lue: lots of old code using 5.10
04:27 allbery_b I recall a big fight on the mailing list about how it was wrong to require people to 'use v6;' in one-liners, but also wrong to make -e (or however *that* is now specced) behave differently from regular perl
04:27 diakopter sorear: it's referring to a Perl 6 interpreter/compiler
04:27 GinoMan the latest books on perl all discuss the current version to learn as perl 5.10
04:27 allbery_b 5.12 came out pretty recently
04:28 allbery_b "latest" for print is ... relative
04:28 GinoMan true
04:28 GinoMan they all mention perl 6 but don't cover it in depth
04:28 GinoMan as far as I can tell
04:28 GinoMan ok.... to bed i go
04:29 lue goodnight GinoMan o/
04:29 GinoMan kthakore: did you find the title of that book?
04:29 GinoMan goodnight lue
04:29 kthakore yeah
04:29 kthakore GinoMan: sorry
04:29 kthakore internet did
04:29 kthakore died*
04:29 GinoMan that's ok
04:30 GinoMan I'll look it up later
04:30 GinoMan gnight everyone!
04:31 GinoMan is now known as GinoSleeps
04:32 lue This is the first time I heard of Perl6 given this idiosyncracy [Although it was mentioned a couple days ago]. I think it's pretty... unexpected, to say the least.
04:32 kthakore https://github.com/perl6/book GinoSleeps see download after sorry
04:34 diakopter lue: it originates from the emphasis on migration, as that bullet says
04:36 diakopter and it generally seemed achievable since pugs was able to operate in that mode
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04:38 lue I know. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just unexpected.
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04:40 lue I haven't used P5, so to me making it run P5 by default isn't sensible. Although I do see why someone else would need it.
04:41 diakopter :) like the millions of P5 users and billions of [copies of] P5 scripts :D ...
04:42 diakopter but such an ideal scenario does seem much less achievable in light of the fact that Perl 5 is such a moving target (especially the past 4-5 years)
04:43 lue lemme see the update history of S01...
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04:45 diakopter on that note, here's yet another p6 book: http://svn.perl.org/viewvc/pe​rl6/doc/trunk/books/tutorial/
04:45 lue I don't think that line about migration has been updated in a long time (of course the history only goes back to 26 Nov 2008)
04:45 diakopter but here's the S01 history from 2006-pugscode http://svn.perl.org/viewvc/perl6/do​c/trunk/design/syn/S01.pod?view=log
04:46 lue thank you, diakopter /me looking
04:46 diakopter 2005, I mean
04:50 lue diakopter: were you around in the days of pugs?
04:51 diakopter variously
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04:53 lue Would you say that the view of Perl 6 in relation to Perl 5 has changed over the years? I'm theorizing that view influenced the bit about P5-by-default.
04:54 diakopter lue: yes.
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04:55 lue My idea is that, if way back when P6 was considered a normal successor to P5, like P5 to P4 and so on, this sort of default would make sense.
04:56 diakopter yeah
04:57 lue But now that P6 is parallel with P5, I'm not so sure that's a sensible option anymore.
04:57 diakopter that expectation has kinda morphed into a both forking ("different/separate but equal-ish languages") and interoperating ("linkable/usable from each other")
05:00 * lue begins creating a detailed blog post.
05:02 allbery_b it's not clear that parallel is the right word; rather, perl 5 is steadily migrating toward perl 6
05:02 allbery_b starting with 5.10
05:03 diakopter there are many facets to the discussion around that assertion
05:03 allbery_b I imagine so
05:03 allbery_b especially given that p6 i still in flux
05:05 diakopter I think no one would dispute that the 'use v6' requirement is quite optimistic, but it begs the question, how optimistic in comparison to the other ideals of the language
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05:10 diakopter lue: particularly relevant is the second-to-last bullet of S01
05:11 diakopter though I might posit that the 'use v6' feature is a higher-order feature
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05:17 lue I've always see    use v6;    as a way for a P5 interpreter to tell the user the code he tried running is actually P6.
05:17 diakopter pugs' embedded/bridged p5 was quite useful, and I think its model of symbol/namespace-sharing/translation (and lexical scope-sharing/translation) is a good one that ought to be considered strongly by other implementations wishing to achieve the similar effect pugs could.
05:18 diakopter lue: yep, it does that too (perhaps merely conveniently, now)
05:20 lue Even though I don't see the need for embedding P5 code into P6 code (again, I have never used P5), I see that being useful for others. I just don't think it should parse as P5 by default.
05:21 diakopter lue: true, I agree with you, if it's installed as "/prefix/bin/perl6".  but the Aug 2004 view was that it would be installed as "/prefix/bin/perl"
05:22 diakopter so perhaps a clarification/reduction to S01 would be to specify exactly that, since it resolves those difficulties
05:22 diakopter (as sorear mentioned above; rakudo can get away with installing as perl6)
05:24 lue I'm wondering: would it be wise for a P6 installation to install as `perl' nowadays?
05:24 diakopter right, that's what I'm proposing (as a spec clarification)
05:26 TimToady it's already clarified by "or you specifically tell it you're running Perl 6 code some ohter way"
05:26 diakopter "If an implementation doesn't implement the 'p5-as-default' mode, then it shouldn't be installed to /prefix/bin/perl, but should instead be installed to /prefix/bin/rakudo (and/or /prefix/bin/perl6 etc)
05:26 TimToady naming your executable perl6 is one way
05:26 diakopter oh
05:28 TimToady any executable named "perl6" is allowed to assume Perl 6; likewise any file with a .p6 or .pm6 extension is assumed Perl 6
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05:28 TimToady that was the phrase we added in after the initial formulation
05:28 TimToady when it became more obvious that not all implementations would be interested in "replacing" Pelr 5
05:29 TimToady *rl
05:30 TimToady but yes, the original assumption was that we'd want /usr/bin/perl to be able to run either
05:30 TimToady that seems less likely since p5 development picked up again
05:31 TimToady so everyone's right :)
05:33 lue Another interesting blast from the past for me. This is better than government-sanctioned history class! :)
05:34 lue wait, when P6 was created (around 2000 IIRC), was P5 at a low point of activity?
05:35 TimToady it was perceived to be stagnating
05:36 lue Doesn't look like it today :)
05:36 TimToady and the perl5-porters mailing list was extrememly, um, feisty in the period before that
05:37 diakopter Is the general opinion that if a language isn't adding (breaking?) features somewhat frequently, then it's stagnating?
05:37 lue .oO(feisty as in "excited, happy-to-code-Perl-5", or as in "nervous about the future" ?)
05:38 TimToady feisty as in fight over new features that nobody sane wanted to add to Perl 5
05:38 diakopter though Perl 5 was already essentially infitely extensible, so it really couldn't "un stagnate" unless one counted the enormous (but largely hidden because the curve of the earth isn't visible from the surface) growth of CPAN wasn't visible
05:39 diakopter infinit*ely
05:42 diakopter I guess my point is that languages generally have to make new paradigms available *by default* in the default installation.. and/or make backward-incompatible changes ... in order to be perceived as non-stagnating
05:43 diakopter that's my perspective, anyway. I'd be glad to be corrected.
05:47 TimToady cpan was also part of the stress on the core language, especially as source filters were proving to be non-scalable
05:53 lue source filters?
05:54 sorear source filters were the first attempt to add macros to Perl 5
05:54 sorear they proved a failure as originally conceived
06:31 VXZ speaking of failure...I just almost burnt my apartment down
06:34 diakopter eek
06:35 VXZ it's all good; at least the annoying smoke detector doesn't have a battery in it
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06:42 diakopter dukeleto excess flood?
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06:43 sorear diakopter: no doubt secondary to a network hiccup
06:43 sorear sometimes they cause an hour's worth of PONG messages to arrive at the server all at once, or something like that
06:45 VXZ question about 'use v5'...does that allow me to use the same variables between perl 6 and perl 5 code?  What does it do with things that are represented differently between the two, like multidimensional data structures?  And what about lazily evaluated things like 0..Inf?
06:49 sorear yes, undecided, undecided
06:51 VXZ Is any of use v5 implimented right now?
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06:51 sorear yes but not in Rakudo
06:53 VXZ Hm.  What in?  Besides p5 :P
06:54 TimToady pugs: use v5; print ord($"),"\n";
06:54 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "sub { use ops (':default', 'binmode', 'entereval');; print ord($"),"\n";␤␤}"␤*** 'print' trapped by operation mask at (eval 2) line 1.␤␤Undefined subroutine &main:: called.␤»
06:55 lue Is there a way to link to a specific version of a file in github (e.g. S01 as it stands right now), for future-proofing purposes?
06:55 VXZ Thanks guys
07:00 lue Nevermind, I found out.
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07:02 dalek niecza: 0e836f6 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
07:02 dalek niecza: Refactor handling of attributes and methods in backend
07:02 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/0e836f62bb
07:02 dalek niecza: d4638e1 | sorear++ | / (10 files):
07:02 dalek niecza: Implement attribute initializers
07:02 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/d4638e157a
07:02 dalek niecza: 25d6c5c | sorear++ | test (2 files):
07:02 dalek niecza: Test mergeback
07:02 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/25d6c5c52d
07:02 dalek niecza: 710b329 | sorear++ | docs/announce.v1:
07:02 dalek niecza: Describe today's changes for v1
07:02 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/710b329a69
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07:27 dalek sprixel: ce47b50 | diakopter++ | / (9 files):
07:27 dalek sprixel: 4-function arithmetic operators, among other things. YAWIPC. next: eval STRING  special form.
07:27 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/ce47b50576
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07:37 Layla helo!
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07:52 lue blog post! https://rdstar.wordpress.com/2010/12/28/t​he-view-of-perl6-and-cleaning-the-specs/
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07:58 sorear Layla: HI!
07:58 sorear Hi.
07:59 sorear Layla: What I meant yesterday was that nobody here can understand how to us variable lookbehind
08:04 Layla sorear: hey you remember me! ^_^
08:07 sorear TimToady: Someone just private-mailed me to say that https://github.com/audreyt/p​ugs/tree/master/t/01-sanity is part of the official test suite and I should be using it instead of my home-grown file.  True or false?
08:07 Layla sorear: You also told me that you are the implementors of the language, so I guess there is no variable length lookbehind in perl6 yet.. it is ok since many programming languages do not have it too..
08:08 Layla sorear: can you tell me how who to know if a specific feature is implemented or not yet in a rakudo imp of perl6?
08:09 Layla sorear: A link to some site would be great! :)
08:09 sorear We have the spectest fudges, although that's rather too low level for most people
08:10 sorear There's also the t/spectest.data file in your Rakudo checkout, at a higher level
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08:11 colomon http://rakudo.org/status
08:11 colomon for a very high level overview, easy to read
08:14 lue goodnight #perl6 o/ [ whenever your night comes :) ]
08:14 sorear bye lue.
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08:15 Layla colomn/ sorear: thanks I will check them.
08:19 colomon rakudo: say pi.unpolar(10)
08:19 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«-2.63602095158294 + -1.7090927253678i␤»
08:19 colomon rakudo: say 10.unpolar(pi)
08:19 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«-10 + 1.22464679914735e-15i␤»
08:19 colomon ah
08:20 colomon rakudo: say (0 .. 2 * pi).roll
08:20 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:20 colomon rakudo: say (0 .. 2 * pi).rand
08:20 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«3.08020446862091␤»
08:20 colomon still someone out of it, I fear.
08:21 colomon *somewhat
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08:31 dalek niecza: dc2fc3b | sorear++ | / (2 files):
08:31 dalek niecza: Fix INIT block test
08:31 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/dc2fc3bb27
08:31 dalek niecza: c2857c1 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
08:31 dalek niecza: Allow passing initial attribute values to .new
08:31 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c2857c1c72
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08:40 colomon rakudo: say Complex.new(1, 2)
08:40 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«1 + 2i␤»
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09:03 colomon rakudo: sub foo($a) [ $a // return Any; }; say foo(10); say foo(Complex);
09:03 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "sub foo($a"␤»
09:04 colomon rakudo: sub foo($a) [ $a }; say foo(10); say foo(Complex);
09:04 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "sub foo($a"␤»
09:04 colomon rakudo: sub foo($a) { $a // return Any; }; say foo(10); say foo(Complex);
09:04 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«10␤Any()␤»
09:05 colomon woah, that allows for some nice golfing
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09:37 colomon rakudo: say Complex.new(0, 1/2) - 1 - 1i
09:37 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«-1 + -0.5i␤»
09:38 colomon rakudo: say Complex.new(0, 1/2) - (1 - 1i)
09:38 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«-1 + 1.5i␤»
09:38 colomon rakudo: say Complex.new(0, 1/2) + (1 - 1i)
09:38 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«1 + -0.5i␤»
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10:41 colomon masak: I'm starting to be happy with my p2 solution.  Worked out a couple of subtle bugs.  Currently have about 100 lines of code and 200 lines of tests.  :)
10:46 moritz_ the actual decision logic is 38 lines here, including comments and blank lines
10:47 moritz_ tests are 141 lines, including some ascii art visualizing the polygons
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10:49 pmurias why gives commit bits to the github perl6/roast repo?
10:49 moritz_ did you mean "who"?
10:50 moritz_ sorear, pmichaud an me (for now)
10:50 pmurias yes
10:50 moritz_ since github doesn't have an API for organizations, we can't yet do it with hugme (which is the ultimate plan)
10:50 pmurias moritz_: could i have one please?
10:50 moritz_ sure
10:50 pmurias my github nick is pmurias
10:51 moritz_ done
10:51 pmurias thanks
10:51 moritz_ pmurias: you're now in the 'perl6' team, which means you have access to roast, specs, perl6.org, modules.perl6.org etc.
10:51 pmurias adding fuge markers for niecza is ok?
10:51 moritz_ sure
10:54 sorear hello pmurias
10:54 sorear glad I'm staying up an extra hour today
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10:55 pmurias hi
10:55 pmurias i'll try to get up ealier this week
10:56 pmurias sorear: 4**20 is causing an error in the CLRBackend
10:56 pmurias any use of the ** operator
10:57 sorear there is no ** operator
10:57 sorear what you're seeing is a STD buglet which causes the parser to fail to reject undefined standard infix operators
10:58 sorear this couldn't happen with a full Perl 6 setting
10:58 pmurias what was infix:<**> replaced with?
10:59 sorear it wasn't
10:59 sorear there is no &infix:<**> in Niecza's setting
10:59 sorear it's not that I've replaced it; I just haven't gotten around to adding it
10:59 pmurias i'll add it then
11:00 * pmurias didn't notice the top of the huge error
11:01 sorear I don't think we really need a backtrace for that one
11:03 pmurias standard user errors should have one
11:03 sorear there are 4 different ways errors can get reported in niecza
11:03 sorear 1. Perl 6 exception handling - generates nice backtrace
11:04 sorear 2. CLRBackend throws an exception - generates usually useless backtrace
11:04 sorear 3. compiler Perl code throws an exception
11:04 sorear 4. compiler calls sorry()
11:05 sorear 2 and 3 are mostly assertions; I want to have all user errors caught in 1 and 4 but I'm not there yet
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11:14 sorear moritz_: https://github.com/blog/758-new-organizations-api ?
11:23 dalek niecza: 711b4c6 | sorear++ | / (6 files):
11:23 dalek niecza: Reimplement $?FOO in new metamodel
11:23 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/711b4c6643
11:23 dalek niecza: 396dce8 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
11:23 dalek niecza: Fix backtrace file names
11:23 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/396dce8480
11:23 moritz_ sorear: oooh, I didn't know that
11:23 * sorear out
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11:44 colomon pmurias++ # was just thinking it was probably time to start looming at spectest on niecza, even if sorear++ isn't focusing on it.
11:45 tadzik I think he is, just she eval seems to be a problem
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11:57 dalek roast: e75b0e8 | pmurias++ | S32-num/power.t:
11:57 dalek roast: fudge power.t for niecza
11:57 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/e75b0e871a
12:03 pmurias what should i do if fuding breaks the test plan?
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12:08 moritz_ how would it do that?
12:08 moritz_ the usual #?skip doesn't
12:09 moritz_ ah, if you remove some tests with #?emit impl #
12:09 moritz_ then you can also #?emit skip(...)
12:16 pmurias moritz_: i skipped a block containing a for loop which generates tests
12:18 moritz_ pmurias: then add a #?DOES $number_of_tests before the block
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12:20 masak oh hai, zebras.
12:21 masak rakudo: say 42 ?? 1, 2, 3 !! 5
12:21 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say 42 ?? "␤»
12:21 masak std: say 42 ?? 1, 2, 3 !! 5
12:21 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Precedence of , is too loose to use between ?? and !!; please use parens around inner expression at /tmp/6F00FgKzoH line 1:␤------> [32msay 42 ?? 1,[33m⏏[31m 2, 3 !! 5[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
12:22 pmurias moritz_: why do we keep the plans, we have done_testing?
12:23 masak pmurias: there has been some back-and-forth on that in the spectest suite.
12:24 masak pmurias: the chief argument for keeping plan numbers seems to be that the statistics become more reliable.
12:24 moritz_ which IMHO is not a good point, since they don't mean anything
12:25 masak nevertheless, people like statistics.
12:25 masak and I can certainly see it from the point of view of those collecting the statistics.
12:27 pmurias how many fourth roots of 8 are there?
12:27 moritz_ 4
12:28 moritz_ there are 4 fourth roots of any finite complex number
12:28 pmurias and 8i?
12:28 moritz_ rakkudo: print ~8i.roots(4)
12:28 moritz_ rakudo: print ~8i.roots(4)
12:28 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«1.55377397403004 + 0.643594252905583i -0.643594252905582 + 1.55377397403004i -1.55377397403004 + -0.643594252905582i 0.643594252905583 + -1.55377397403004i»
12:29 moritz_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F​undamental_theorem_of_algebra
12:29 masak \o/
12:30 moritz_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P​roperties_of_polynomial_roots is even more fitting
12:30 * moritz_ marks the day in the calendar which is reserved for theoerm usage
12:31 moritz_ http://abstrusegoose.com/133
12:31 moritz_ *theorem
12:32 pmurias DOES sets affects all following things not just one
12:32 moritz_ DOES should affect a block
12:32 moritz_ if not, you've found a bug in fudge
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12:33 masak fudgebug.
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12:34 pmurias looking at the code there seems to be a bug there
12:35 pmurias should it be done_testing or done-testing?
12:37 tadzik _
12:38 masak ...which is also against Perl 6 "practices", come to think of it.
12:38 masak but it's inherited from Perl 5 which only has underscores, of course.
12:39 pmurias where does the Test.pm test suit live nowdays?
12:41 moritz_ in each compiler's repo
12:41 moritz_ wait
12:42 * moritz_ misread the question
12:42 moritz_ mu
12:42 moritz_ t/02-test-pm/
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12:43 masak lue: nice post with nice pictures -- https://rdstar.wordpress.com/2010/12/28/t​he-view-of-perl6-and-cleaning-the-specs/
12:44 masak lue: the "tuning fork" metapohor was devised around this point: http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/the-w​ish-the-tuning-fork-and-the-one-true-heir
12:47 pmurias lue: you are aware that the default only applies if the perl6 interpreter is invoked as 'perl'?
12:48 masak sorear++: congrats on the v1 announcement!
12:52 pmurias where was the v1 announced to?
12:52 moritz_ p6a
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12:52 moritz_ planetsix
12:55 tadzik p6u
13:07 masak maybe a status report is in order: I've started using niecza to make a Markdown converter. it will take on the order of two weeks to build, I think. I'm running into quite a lot of minor issues, which is good. my goal is to eventually replace the Perl 5 Markdown converter with the Perl 6 one in my blog software psyde, and not loose much performance doing so.
13:07 masak that may require me to precompile the Markdown source code somehow, because currently compilation is slow in niecza.
13:09 masak blocker: I'm caught up in HPatMoR and unable to code. ;)
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13:11 lidden Has Rakudo Star 2010.12 been cancelled?
13:12 masak hi. no, it's usually released a week after the montly Rakudo release.
13:12 masak and that one was... last Thursday.
13:12 * masak checks that
13:12 masak yes.
13:14 dalek roast: f65933f | pmurias++ | S32-num/power.t:
13:14 dalek roast: add #?DOES to S32-num/power.t to fix fudging for niecza
13:14 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/f65933f13c
13:15 lidden Ok, Thanks.
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13:23 masak s/loose/lose/ # argh!
13:23 masak I hate it when I see that typo in print :(
13:23 VXZ I hate it when I see any typo in print
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13:42 shortcircuit I realize it's out of order, but with operators like &&=, &=, ||=, += and such being so commmon, wouldn't it make more sense to define a metaoperator to apply to &&, &, ||, +, etc. instead?
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13:43 colomon shortcircuit: that's generally what is done
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13:43 masak shortcircuit: what gave you the impression that they're not defined that way?
13:44 shortcircuit I just noticed the "New operators" line in the Niecza v1 announcement on planet perl six.
13:44 shortcircuit For new ?= operators to be defined, it would seem necessary that the general case is that they're not already.
13:45 shortcircuit Which is why I suggested the metaop.
13:45 colomon ah, I cannot speak for what Niecza does
13:48 masak I was also a bit surprised that && was defined in niecza but &&= wasn't.
13:48 colomon hmmm, where does STD.pm live these days?
13:48 colomon to be far, I think &&= is a bit of a special case.
13:48 masak colomon: http://github.com/perl6/std
13:49 colomon because it shortcircuits
13:49 colomon masak++
13:49 * shortcircuit groans
13:49 masak right. && is a special case, because it short-circuits.
13:49 * shortcircuit just realized he's not in #haskell any longer, because he hasn't been pinged by 'shortcircuiting', et al in a while.
13:50 smash joined #perl6
13:50 smash hello everyone
13:51 masak smash! \o/
13:51 colomon \o
14:01 colomon shortcircuit: anyway, it definitely is a meta-op in theory and in Rakudo, but I dunno what Niecza does with it.
14:02 colomon rakudo: sub infix:<splat>($a, $b) { $a ~ " splat " ~ $b; }; say "a" splat "b"; my $a = "fred"; $a splat= "barny"
14:02 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«a splat b␤Null PMC access in invoke()␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
14:02 colomon std: sub infix:<splat>($a, $b) { $a ~ " splat " ~ $b; }; say "a" splat "b"; my $a = "fred"; $a splat= "barny"
14:02 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 125m␤»
14:03 masak colomon: might help to make it an 'our' sub.
14:03 colomon masak: is that one known?  seems like I might have stumbled across it six months ago...
14:03 colomon rakudo: our sub infix:<splat>($a, $b) { $a ~ " splat " ~ $b; }; say "a" splat "b"; my $a = "fred"; $a splat= "barny"
14:03 masak it's known.
14:03 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«a splat b␤»
14:03 colomon rakudo: our sub infix:<splat>($a, $b) { $a ~ " splat " ~ $b; }; say "a" splat "b"; my $a = "fred"; $a splat= "barny"; say $a
14:03 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«a splat b␤fred splat barny␤»
14:03 colomon masak++
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14:21 masak nom &
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15:01 * colomon is starting to worry he's too fuzzy in the head to make progress on p1.
15:01 LeifD where is rakudos bug reports stored?
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15:04 colomon http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/?nossl=true
15:04 LeifD been there. The bugs seem to be so old?
15:05 [Coke] LeifD: some of them are, sure.
15:05 LeifD Is there a way to order them, newest to old
15:07 [Coke] If you are not a guest, you can click on "Created" header to sort by.
15:07 LeifD Im a guest. That solves it ;).
15:09 [Coke] You might be able to self-register for a bitcard account off the main page.
15:09 LeifD Already on it.
15:15 LeifD Works good now :)
15:16 colomon oooo, stack machine!
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15:30 * colomon 's Forth heritage still comes out every now and then...
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16:12 rjbs p1?
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16:16 colomon masak's quiz, problem one
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16:39 moritz_ http://strangelyconsistent.org/b​log/masaks-perl-6-coding-contest
16:42 colomon by george, I think I've got it.
16:42 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | http://tinyurl.com/p6contest
16:42 moritz_ colomon: who is george?
16:43 colomon I presume the phrase originally comes from one of the English kings.  (which is to say, I have no clue.)
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16:44 colomon Seems like there are only three of us actually working on the contest, if we go by the chatter on #perl6
16:45 colomon (and T-135 to #phasers?)
16:45 * moritz_ won't make it to #phasers today
16:45 moritz_ having breakfast with $rest_of_family and then a board game :-)
16:46 colomon what game?
16:46 * colomon will be at #phasers unless he is napping.
16:48 * colomon hopes moritz_ has better luck than he has with playing board games once he has a little one around...
16:48 moritz_ colomon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/​Carcassonne_%28board_game%29
16:48 colomon Oh sure, we have Carcassonne
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16:49 lichtkind rakudo: 4 and 5
16:49 p6eval rakudo cae7f9:  ( no output )
16:49 lichtkind rakudo: say 4 and 5
16:49 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«4␤»
16:49 [Coke] t/spec/S29-context/exit.rakudo
16:50 colomon Carcassonne is one of those lovely games that two can play.
16:50 [Coke] (fails 2nd test with latest parrot, even with whiteknight's fix)
16:51 [Coke] looks like "exit" and "exit 5" are not handled the same in Rakudo, as whiteknight's fix makes them both exit quietly in parrot.
16:51 moritz_ colomon: we celebrate New Year's Eve with a family where the parent manage to invite people for playing board games, even though they have a toddler. So I do have hope :-)
16:51 [Coke] rakudo: say "hi" ; exit
16:51 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«hi␤»
16:52 [Coke] rakudo: say "hi" ; exit 3
16:52 p6eval rakudo cae7f9: OUTPUT«hi␤»
16:52 [Coke] (works fine against parrot 2.11.0)
16:52 moritz_ it seems that the rakudo on p6eval is the last before the bump to 2.11.0
16:52 * moritz_ curses at the bytecode incompatibilities
16:53 colomon moritz_: our guy now sleeps well enough in the evening that we will probably be able to have people over to play once or twice a month when the holiday season is over.
16:53 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
16:54 * moritz_ runs wipe-and-rebuild-rakudo.sh
16:54 moritz_ [Coke]: does S02-magicals/pid.t pass for you?
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16:57 [Coke] moritz_: yes.
16:57 lichtkind rakudo: say 4 xor 5
16:57 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«sh: ../p/bin/perl6: not found␤»
16:57 lichtkind rakudo: say 0 xor 5
16:57 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«sh: ../p/bin/perl6: not found␤»
16:58 lichtkind rakudo: say 5
16:58 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«sh: ../p/bin/perl6: not found␤»
16:58 [Coke] uhoh.
16:58 moritz_ lichtkind: the rakudo on p6eval is currently being rebuilt
16:58 moritz_ sorry for the inconvenience
16:58 lichtkind k
16:58 lichtkind its ok
16:59 lichtkind moritz_: i have fresh os here doesnt came around to install rakudo
16:59 flussence I was gonna suggest using try.rakudo... but it looks like I'll have to fix that again now :(
17:00 flussence huh, screen session's gone
17:01 flussence oh, box was rebooted...
17:02 flussence hm...
17:02 flussence → say $*PERL
17:02 flussence namerakudo
17:02 flussence version2010.09-3-ga820a44
17:02 flussence seems a bit stale...
17:03 shortcircuit lichtkind: Installing rakudo's pretty easy. Finding the directions I used seems to be hard, though.
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17:04 shortcircuit https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/
17:05 shortcircuit Looks like the inlined README is the instruction set I used. I went with the latest release from http://github.com/rakudo/star/downloads , though
17:05 flussence seen ash_
17:05 aloha ash_ was last seen in #perl6 25 days 21 hours ago saying "sorear: i think you have to evaluate a constant at compile time".
17:05 flussence aw, jeez.
17:05 moritz_ rakudo: say $*PERL
17:05 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«name    rakudo␤version  2010.12-3-g3750262␤␤»
17:06 flussence tryrakudo's using a perl6 in his user dir, I'd install a newer one myself for the site but I dunno how well that'd go on feather3; it seems a bit tight on RAM
17:06 moritz_ flussence: I think he copied a compiled perl6.pbc from his own machine, or something
17:07 flussence hm, that could work...
17:09 flussence well, site's functioning now anyway.
17:16 flussence (or it would be, if I'd noticed there were two separate source trees to update. argh!)
17:16 daxim mascot page:  http://duke.kenai.com/
17:18 soroush joined #perl6
17:25 dalek book: 7be2120 | (Przemysław Wesołek)++ | lib/ (2 files):
17:25 dalek book: Nicely wrap long text in tables, due to tabulary.
17:25 dalek book:
17:25 dalek book: Closes #41
17:25 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/7be21205ab
17:25 moritz_ the book, the book
17:25 moritz_ we have to finish it
17:30 jest do it, do it, so I can read it ;)
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17:37 jest I can help with some LaTeX knowledge and building, but I'm a Perl 6 newbie
17:40 lue left #perl6
17:41 dalek book: a9caeb2 | moritz++ | src/images/title.svg:
17:41 dalek book: add vector graphic version of the cover image
17:41 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/a9caeb2213
17:41 lue joined #perl6
17:41 moritz_ jest: using this .svg instead of the .jpeg for the title would be nice
17:42 moritz_ needs to be converted to pdf first, I believe
17:43 * moritz_ decides to put the authors in alphabetical order
17:44 jest sure, I'll convert it to PDF and add the file to the repo.
17:44 lichtkind rakudo: say 5
17:44 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«5␤»
17:44 jest I don't see the required fonts in the system. Have to look for them on the web
17:45 lichtkind rakudo: say 0 xor 5
17:45 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«0␤»
17:45 lichtkind rakudo: say 2 xor 5
17:45 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«2␤»
17:45 moritz_ jest: I think i have the fonts, I can do the conversion too
17:45 jest (I mean the ones used in SVG, generated PDF won't need them)
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17:47 jest hm, Avenir Next Pro, by Linotype; doesn't look like a free face...
17:48 moritz_ not free, no
17:49 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
17:49 jest moritz_: go ahead, if you can. Exporting to PDF (from Inkscape?) please turn texts into paths, and maybe rasterize filter effects
17:49 moritz_ inkscape is sooo slow to start up
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17:51 dalek book: 3e3427b | moritz++ | src/images/title.pdf:
17:51 dalek book: add pdf-ized cover image
17:51 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/3e3427b8bc
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17:54 tadzik ~~
17:54 jest moritz_: how about inkscape src/images/title.svg -D -T -A src/images/title.pdf, for me it runs pretty fast (preloaded, though)
17:54 moritz_ jest: that's what I just committed... took felt 10s
17:54 jest _moritz: the text in PDF doesn't look like Avenir
17:54 tadzik carcassone++
17:55 * moritz_ is pretty ignorant to font questions :(
17:56 moritz_ seems I only have Avenir LT Std and not Avenir Next Pro
17:56 jest moritz_: are you sure in inkscape the SVG looks exactly like (fonts...) the frontpage of the book?
17:56 moritz_ jest: not sure, no
17:57 jest moritz_: OK, I'll change the code in LaTeX to use PDF, which may be corrected later.
17:57 * shortcircuit is stuck in a holding pattern at work. Could compare screenshots and do other mindless things.
17:57 lichtkind shortcircuit: do you know dep repo that has rakudo?
17:57 lichtkind debian
17:58 shortcircuit lichtkind: No, I don't. Running Lenny at home. I used the linked instructions and the latest tarball to install under my user directory.
17:59 huf there was an ancient version in debian experimental if you feel like using an old rakudo with an old parrot AND potentially breaking your debian while doing so :)
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18:00 diakopter moritz_++ https://github.com/perl6/book/raw​/3e3427b8bc/src/images/title.pdf
18:01 diakopter I guess the orange moth signifies a Camelia that hasn't blossomed into her full rainbow-colored Egyptian coat
18:01 moritz_ diakopter: sri++ came up with it, I merely did some conversion
18:03 dalek book: 51c28cd | moritz++ | lib/book.sty:
18:03 dalek book: alphabetic order of contributors
18:03 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/51c28cd774
18:04 moritz_ diakopter: it's certainly an allusion to camelia, and at the same time less controversial
18:05 shortcircuit I'd try put together a .deb using checkinstall, but 'make install' doesn't place things in, e.g. /usr/local/*, so I don't know quite how it'd behave. (I also don't know that much about changing Rakudo's installer.)
18:05 diakopter to follow the Joseph (in Genesis) analogy, I guess she's still ruled/persecuted by her older siblings
18:05 shortcircuit *try to
18:05 moritz_ shortcircuit: rakudo is installed to the same prefix as parrot
18:05 moritz_ shortcircuit: so once you have a good parrot package
18:06 moritz_ it's a piece of cake
18:06 * shortcircuit SSHes home and pokes around
18:07 shortcircuit How old is Parrot 2.0.0-1?
18:07 diakopter mummified?
18:09 shortcircuit apt-cache show indicates pkg-parrot-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org for the Maintainer of the Parrot package. *checks mailing list archives for undead behavior*
18:10 M_o_C joined #perl6
18:11 * shortcircuit is reminded of the parrot sketch from Monty Python.
18:11 shortcircuit It may apply to that list.
18:11 shortcircuit Wow.
18:11 dalek sprixel: 1572a27 | diakopter++ | / (7 files):
18:11 dalek sprixel: make the recursive operator precedence actually work correctly
18:11 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/1572a27c59
18:12 flussence debian's effort looks a fair bit more lively than gentoo's atm
18:12 flussence (if I get sufficiently irritated, I might do something about that at some point)
18:18 [Coke] 2.11 just came out, monthly releases.
18:23 masak joined #perl6
18:23 masak ahoy!
18:24 tadzik ahoy!
18:25 * masak sits down writing a bit of Markdown converter in Perl 6
18:27 shortcircuit I'm curious. How many Perl 6 developers in here are paid to work on implementations of Perl 6? (Either explicitly so, or on something that they can treat such work as a dependency)
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18:35 [Coke] several people are receiving grants.
18:35 [Coke] but I wouldn't expect those to be == a salary or anything.
18:36 [Coke] pretty sure everyone has a day job that takes precedence.
18:36 lichtkind shortcircuit: , huf thanks
18:36 masak the grants aren't salary-level, but they're not insignificant either.
18:36 [Coke] colomon: holy crap, sir.
18:36 huf lichtkind: for what? i *hope* you didnt install what i suggested ;)
18:38 masak I should have made this one of the problems in the Perl 6 Coding Contest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firi​ng_squad_synchronization_problem :)
18:41 shortcircuit masak++....Now I need to figure out how to work that into a Rosetta Code task.
18:41 masak ooh
18:41 masak shouldn't be too difficult. :)
18:42 shortcircuit masak: Although...you're welcome to get sucked into the glorious timesink that is RC, if you like. :)
18:42 masak I'll certainly think about it :)
18:42 masak though I've created quite a number of personal glorious timesinks already, and I tend to have them take precedence :)
18:43 * masak hacks a bit more on Markdown
18:43 shortcircuit First hit's free. All subsequent ones, too. :)
18:43 masak Free in the Linux sense, "only if your time isn't worth anything" :P
18:44 masak man, using niecza is worth it just for the heredocs...
18:44 MayDaniel joined #perl6
18:45 dalek book: be7ea6f | (Przemysław Wesołek)++ | lib/book.sty:
18:45 dalek book: Switched to PDF version of the logo.
18:45 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/be7ea6fb8e
18:45 dalek book: f3ea109 | (Przemysław Wesołek)++ | src/images/title.pdf:
18:45 dalek book: PDF logo version more resembling previous one.
18:45 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/f3ea10968c
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18:51 Util In Perl 6, can you think of any circumstance that this:
18:51 Util if some-multi-term-expression {...}
18:52 Util would differ from this?:
18:52 Util if ?(some-multi-term-expression) {...}
18:54 Util In other words, is ?() redundant in *every* if-conditional-clause?
18:54 flussence rakudo: my $x = 1 but role { method Bool { !!! } }; if $x { say 'a' }; if ?$x { say 'b' }
18:54 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«a␤Stub code executed␤  in 'Bool' at line 22:/tmp/4IvEvrnu8I␤  in 'prefix:<?>' at line 468:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/4IvEvrnu8I␤»
18:55 flussence not sure what the difference is there, but there is one.
18:55 masak Util: if the .Bool method is overridden, boolifying twice might have arbitrary consequences.
18:58 pmurias masak: any feature missing in niecza you would like me to add?
18:58 Util Hmmm. Since this is in regards to P5-to-P6 translation, .Bool and roles should not be factors. Thx!
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18:58 masak pmurias: do you think you could put in multi dispatch? :P
18:59 * shortcircuit likes multi dispatch
18:59 pmurias i could move the one i did for mildew over
18:59 pmurias but i doubt it would be very fast
18:59 masak fast is a later concern for multis.
19:00 * shortcircuit notes that as he was writing his first Perl 6 programs last week, almost all of his subs became multis.
19:02 masak sorear, pmurias: in my Markdown code, I've copy-pasted Test.pm6 and modified it so that it prints "got" and "expected" information
19:02 masak niecza: say "foo\n".perl
19:02 p6eval niecza 406e042: OUTPUT«Can't locate JSON.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/p6eval/niecza/src /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.1 /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.10 /usr/share/perl/5.10 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NAMBackend.pm
19:02 p6eval ..line 9…
19:02 masak hm.
19:02 masak "Unable to resolve method perl in class Str" locally.
19:03 masak pmurias: if you want, you could put in .perl for the CORE classes.
19:03 pmurias masak: got and expected should be merged in
19:03 masak they'd be even better with .perl, though.
19:06 pmurias testing .perl properly requires eval :(
19:06 masak I haven't felt a pressing need for &eval yet. but I suspect I will, any day now.
19:08 pmurias eval doesn't tend to be very usefull in everyday programming
19:08 masak no, but it's wonderful in the workaround toolset.
19:08 shortcircuit Isn't it needed for REPL?
19:10 masak not really.
19:10 masak just compilation.
19:10 lichtkind huf for the info
19:10 masak alternately, "only if you're writing the REPL in the implementation language" :)
19:10 shortcircuit masak: I believe RC has a task for that. :)
19:10 pmurias REPL's usually need some extra magic so that lexicals persist between calls
19:11 * pmurias uses REPL mostly as calculators
19:11 masak people: is there a more efficient way to write C<< [<!before \n\n> .]+ >> ?
19:12 sorear [ \N+ || \n <!before \n> ]+ maybe?
19:12 masak nice, thanks.
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19:14 pmurias sorear: hi
19:14 pmurias sorear: should i rename .dump to .perl?
19:14 pmurias with fixes to make it return perl code
19:16 sorear shortcircuit: I have a metaop which can make but=, +=, -=, ~= etc, but && is a special case as remarked
19:17 sorear shortcircuit: currently $x ~= $y turns into assignop(&infix:<~>, $x, $y) - can't make that work with && easily
19:17 sorear shortcircuit: esp. since there is no &infix:<&&>
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19:21 sorear pmurias: yes
19:21 masak rakudo: grammar G { token TOP { [<para> \n*]* }; token para { [ \N+ || \n <!before \n> ]+ } }; for G.parse("foo\nbar\n\nbaz")<para> { say "|", $_ }
19:21 sorear I think I lost that battle
19:21 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«|foo␤bar baz␤»
19:21 masak sorear: you might want to look into why the above produces a different output in niecza.
19:21 pmurias sorear: which battle?
19:21 sorear pmurias: trying to get .perl to stop being called that
19:21 masak sorear: it says "|bar" rather than "bar".
19:22 sorear ow.
19:22 pmurias sorear: what is the reasoning behind that?
19:23 masak sorear: sorry, "|baz" rather than "baz".
19:23 masak sorear: that is, it implicitly listifies that expression when it probably shouldn't.
19:24 sorear pmurias: it's not particularly useful for serializing, and people should be using JSON or whatever anyway, so I think it makes more sense to optimize for readability and simplicity than Perl
19:24 masak sorear: TimToady has said that an expression should only be listified if there's something syntactical to cause it to listify, either at the beginning of the expression (like '@') or at the end (like '.[]')
19:25 * masak submits nieczabug
19:26 dalek niecza: c1a6e23 | sorear++ | lib/Cursor.cs:
19:26 dalek niecza: Fix listification of degenerate captures
19:26 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c1a6e23ce0
19:26 masak whoa!
19:26 Patterner left #perl6
19:26 masak I didn't have a chance to press "Submit"! :)
19:27 masak sorear: it's a pleasure to work with you.
19:28 envi left #perl6
19:30 pmurias rakudo: class Foo {};say Foo.perl;
19:30 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Foo␤»
19:30 pmurias rakudo: class Foo {};say Foo.new.perl;
19:30 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Foo.new()␤»
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19:46 pmurias sorear: i get a compile error on the current niecza
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19:48 pmurias it might be an overly old mono
19:49 pmurias http://pastebin.com/idWnc1Li
19:53 [Coke] if I can get a spectest run against a newer version of parrot, any reason not to update the  revision?
19:55 tadzik how do I 'make clean' niecza using xbuild?
19:58 masak sorear: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/issues#issue/17 is a bother when things go wrong and debugging is needed. :/
20:01 masak nom &
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20:14 colomon [Coke]: please feel free.  :)
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20:23 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl​6/index.cgi?perl_6_operator_tablet
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20:35 dalek sprixel: 149c5fc | diakopter++ | / (11 files):
20:35 dalek sprixel: nested (every parent lexical scope included) eval EXPR  working.
20:35 dalek sprixel: return value of evals not yet bound, but can be eventually, straightforwardly.
20:35 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/149c5fc081
20:37 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl​6/index.cgi?perl_6_operator_tablet
20:37 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
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20:43 dalek sprixel: b1df5f8 | diakopter++ | perlesqueTreeParser.g:
20:43 dalek sprixel: delete unneeded file
20:43 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/b1df5f8e04
20:43 dalek sprixel: 6055def | diakopter++ | sprixel/src/ (13 files):
20:43 dalek sprixel: delete more unneeded files
20:43 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/6055defbd9
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20:57 tadzik hmm. I was thinking about writing a chapter for The Book, with easier grammar examples. Now I'm wondering, is there a need, or could the manpower be focused on something more interesting?
21:00 tadzik maybe writing about packages and modules?
21:01 tadzik or defining own operators in the operators section
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21:12 dalek sprixel: a6cfc57 | diakopter++ | sprixel/ (3 files):
21:12 dalek sprixel: demo of doubly-nested string eval and named sub direct recursion
21:12 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/a6cfc57911
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21:21 diakopter perl6: say((my $a) ~ ($a = "moo"))
21:21 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«moomoo␤»
21:21 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«moo␤»
21:21 diakopter niecza: say((my $a) ~ ($a = "moo"))
21:21 p6eval niecza 406e042: OUTPUT«Can't locate JSON.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/p6eval/niecza/src /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.1 /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.10 /usr/share/perl/5.10 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NAMBackend.pm
21:21 p6eval ..line 9…
21:21 diakopter urp
21:23 ShaneC left #perl6
21:23 sjohnson oink!
21:25 colomon mooooooooo
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21:25 tadzik zezezezezebra!
21:25 tadzik or, well, whatever
21:26 * shortcircuit should see what's in The Book.
21:27 shortcircuit I wonder if finding language analogies for concepts would be a good addition.
21:27 hercynium left #perl6
21:27 [hercynium] is now known as hercynium
21:28 shortcircuit For example, when I blogged about writing my first Perl 6 program, someone commented that 'multi' reminded him of guards in Erlang. That kind of conceptual bridge might be useful.
21:29 shortcircuit Ok, obviously, I come from a biased background in such things...
21:31 pmurias what's your background?
21:31 mtk left #perl6
21:31 shortcircuit pmurias: I run rosettacode.org
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21:35 pmurias multi's and erlang guards are a different conceptually but have a similiar role
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22:10 moritz_ http://mmol-6453.livejournal.com/257585.html # don't know if it has been noticed yet
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22:50 colomon ..... aiiiiieeee, what's the method to make something lazy unlazy?
22:50 * colomon has too much vicodin in his system to remember, he fears.
22:51 Tene eager?
22:51 colomon \o/
22:51 colomon Tene++
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23:11 dalek sprixel: d7da935 | diakopter++ | / (9 files):
23:11 dalek sprixel: named sub invocation (without &) & beginnings of use statement,
23:11 dalek sprixel: which will need to pause parsing/compiling of that particular
23:11 dalek sprixel: lexical block, save its location, and eval the rest of that
23:11 dalek sprixel: lexical block as a lexical scope contained within the scope
23:11 dalek sprixel: of the compilation unit resulting from the 'use' statement.
23:11 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/d7da935e68
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23:17 diakopter BEGIN blocks will of course be available, trivially, as well
23:18 spq1 left #perl6
23:20 colomon I don't suppose someone out there has a good set of test cases and answers for masak++'s p1?  ;)
23:21 colomon afk 4 noms
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23:47 masak <colomon> I don't suppose someone out there has a good set of test cases and answers for masak++'s p1?  ;)
23:48 masak I must warn everyone considering borrowing test cases from each other that I will consider all signs of plagiarism -- even non-obvious ones -- a strong disadvantage.
23:49 masak I'm not going to disqualify anyone for it, I'll just not consider it to be elegant solutions.
23:50 masak the rational thing for contestants to do is to be fairly discreet about their own code.
23:56 masonkramer What's the metaclass of < a b c >? What's the metaclass of Array?  How can I find this out programmatically?
23:58 masak masonkramer: generally, all normal classes have the same metaclass.
23:58 masak masonkramer: somehow I sense that you're really asking about something else...
23:58 yarrak joined #perl6
23:58 masonkramer You're right
23:58 kst left #perl6
23:59 masonkramer I'll ask a better question then
23:59 masonkramer What happens when I type Array.^methods

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