Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-12-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 sbp rakudo: Array.^methods
00:00 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
00:00 sbp rakudo: say Array.^methods
00:00 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«newat_posperlsplicedeletenewCaptureeagerel​emsflatiteratorlistmunchBoolNumStrexistsfmtmapper​lreverserotatesortpoppushshiftunshiftACCEPTSat_po​shashofitemNumericIntNumStrelemsfmtlistNumericRea​lIntRatNumabsexploglog10sqrtrootsto-radiansfrom-r​adiansfloorceilingroundtruncatesigncisunpola…
00:00 masak rakudo: say ~Array.^methods(:local)
00:00 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«new at_pos perl splice delete␤»
00:00 masonkramer what receives the dispatch?  What's the class implementing Array?
00:01 masonkramer *metaclass
00:01 masak right. Array.^methods is really Array.HOW.methods
00:01 masak Array.HOW accesses the metaclass object of Array.
00:02 masak this object knows about how Array is implemented; parents, methods, attributes...
00:02 masonkramer rakudo: say ~Array.HOW
00:02 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Method 'Str' not found for invocant of class 'ClassHOW'␤  in main program body at line 7369:CORE.setting␤»
00:02 sbp rakudo: say Array.HOW
00:02 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
00:03 masak that 'ClassHOW' there is a clue.
00:03 sbp say Array.CLUES
00:04 masak Rakudo implements metaclass objects with ClassHOW, written in nqp.
00:04 masak jnthn++ is working on better, more strangely-loopy implementations with 6model.
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00:08 diakopter rakudo: say (~(Array.^methods(:local)))
00:08 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«new at_pos perl splice delete␤»
00:09 masak rakudo: say ~Array.^methods: :local
00:09 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«new at_pos perl splice delete␤»
00:09 diakopter neat
00:10 masak I still remember the groans I inadvertently caused during szabgab's Perl 6 Beginners' course at YAPC::EU 2009.
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00:11 masak I said something like "that's not an adverb colon, that's an invocant colon". people looked like their mental stacks were blown.
00:13 * GinoMan tilts his head, a bell chimes once, then smoke comes out of his ears
00:13 * diakopter has to wonder about language implementations (currently mine/perlesque) that have typed closures working before if-statements
00:13 masak neat.
00:14 masak no harm in having an unorthodox set of focal points, if you ask me.
00:14 diakopter I'll add it to p6eval soon.. to replace the old perlesque that generated its own grammar/compiler upon every invocation
00:14 diakopter this one uses an ANTLR-generated lexer/parser
00:15 masak you seem to be iterating your way through parsing techniques.
00:15 diakopter true.
00:15 sbp you can probably model if-statements in typed closures if you think hard enough
00:15 diakopter hee
00:16 diakopter no, there's no comparisons/bools really at all
00:16 diakopter only declarations and assignment and more assignment and invocations
00:16 masak but we weren't talking about comparisons/bools -- we were talking about if statements :P
00:16 * diakopter goes to add comparisons and if
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00:18 diakopter yeah but if statements needs bools, which need comparisons (why test boolean of a constant) or variables that change until a termination point
00:18 diakopter anyway, these are all quite quick to add
00:19 GinoMan why not just borrow perl5's if-statement model
00:20 lue hello fellow citizebras o/
00:20 masak diakopter: what GinoMan said, kinda. if statements don't need bools, only something that can be construed as false and non-false.
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00:21 masak diakopter: and bools don't need comparisons, as long as there is *some* way to produce bools.
00:21 kst joined #perl6
00:21 masak but I'm splitting hairs here.
00:22 diakopter those poor hairs
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00:23 diakopter "... quite quick to add..." (because ANTLR and runsharp (and perlesque's infinitely-flexible compilation/execution model) make it so darn easy)
00:23 diakopter I'm going to start thinking of/describing perlesque as a much more powerful/expressive PIR
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00:26 lue masak: I drew those diagrams up without knowing the tuning fork metaphor existed.
00:28 lue pmurias: I know it only applies if it is invoked as `perl', but 1) the spec doesn't clarify this point  2) How would a program be able to tell what you typed to call it? [ It may be that I simply don't know :) ]
00:29 masak lue: yes, I guessed that. nice to see someone else blog about it.
00:30 envi joined #perl6
00:30 masak lue: S01:105: "The perl interpreter will assume that it is being fed Perl 5 code" -- there it is, clarified, right there.
00:31 masak it's easy to miss, though. the operative words are "the *perl* interpreter" -- i.e. not the perl6 interpreter or the niecza interpreter...
00:33 lue There, I read the word 'perl' as referring the language [e.g. an interpreter of perl], not the program name, although it is all lowercase [e.g. the interpreter invoked with the command `perl']
00:36 lue Well, like I said earlier, it's a very interesting history :)
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00:44 diakopter masak: but that just doesn't sound right
00:45 diakopter b/c a perl6 interpreter or the niecza interpreter can also be the "perl interpreter"
00:45 diakopter hence my request for clarification
00:45 lue I would say that in any case, the spec needs changing to reflect the times.
00:45 diakopter yes, it's technically correct
00:46 diakopter maybe I shouldn't ask for clarification.  Perhaps I should ask more for elucidation.
00:46 lue My question is this: would anyone who started a Perl 6 interpreter today want to have their program install as `perl'?
00:48 diakopter I agree with lue when he says "pmurias: I know it only applies if it is invoked as `perl', but 1) the spec doesn't clarify this point" except I'd replace "clarify" with "emphasize"
00:48 diakopter in other words, it's that phrase "the perl interpreter" that trips us up.
00:49 masak agreed.
00:49 masak less ambiguity in the spec can only be a good thing.
00:49 diakopter (b/c it can be installed as both "perl" and "niecza/pugs/rakudo/sprixel/etc")
00:49 lue Maybe "if a Perl 6 interpreter is installed as `perl',..." ?
00:50 masak and Perl 6 installing as `perl` may or may not be a breach of the Two-Languages-One-Family agreement.
00:52 lue I'm just wondering, is this P5-by-default even an *issue* anymore?
00:53 diakopter masak: that brings up a good question - does that agreement jive with the spec, in all realistic-ness?  I mean, can a p6 impl ever hope to truly implement all of (or embed) p5 while also making that p5 able to be updated/used *as p5* ?
00:53 masak lue: not for me ;)
00:53 colomon certainly not an issue for now
00:54 colomon actually, in retrospect, sort of a bizarre issue to have worried about in the past.
00:54 masak diakopter: I think we should neither blind ourselves with idealism ("Perl 6 will implement Perl 5, too!!!"), nor let ourselves be limited by current tech ("Perl 6 will never implement Perl 5, so there!!!")
00:55 smash left #perl6
00:55 masak the focus has certainly moved *away* from p5p6-compat in the past few years, yes.
00:56 masak it used to be a big selling point.
00:56 colomon what strikes me as weird about it is it doesn't seem to sit well with the "perl 5 is defined by an implementation but p6 is defined by a spec" thing.
00:57 masak just look at http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/exe/E02.html : "In fact, that's only 40 characters (out of 1779) from being pure Perl 5. [...] 98% backwards compatibility even without an automatic p52p6 translator...pretty slick!" with the addendum "[Update: Well, it's not quite that backward compatible anymore.]"
00:57 masak E02 is from May 2001.
00:58 colomon Were people seriously thinking there would be one interpreter, whose behavior on the one hand would be bug-compatiability with p5 and on the other hand spec-compatiability with p6?  That seems like a very weird notion.
00:59 masak colomon: last YAPC::EU, I seriously toyed with the idea of resurrecting Ponie in today's Parrot environment.
00:59 masak colomon: but I think that idea is a year or two too early.
00:59 masak and it'd need serious backing from the Perl 5 world to even have a shot at success.
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01:00 * masak looks at what he wrote and decides to write "serious" one more time
01:01 masak hm. sleep beckons.
01:01 masak 'night, zebras.
01:01 lue I personally don't think a P6 interpreter should be forced to interpret P5 at all. It just seems like that says "Perl 6 is going to break compatability with Perl 5, cos that's one of it's design goals for progress! Unless, of course, you don't like change, here, have a nice use v5; block."
01:01 lue gnight o/
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01:02 masak lue: the spec simply permits v5 integration.
01:02 masak left #perl6
01:05 lue Yeah, I'm just not so sure of it being a good idea. Of course, I haven't been around long, and I've never used Perl 5, so my views are biased :)
01:10 lue I don't think it's the time to argue about P5 support, although I do believe the P5-by-default feature should be removed.
01:11 sorear good * #perl6
01:11 colomon \o
01:14 lue hello o/
01:14 colomon rakudo: say 4 ~~ any (1, 3, 4, 5)
01:14 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
01:16 * mdxi wonders *which* Perl 5 masak would implement -- there's an irritating amount of distro-based fragmentation going on since 5.10 :-/
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01:18 mdxi if you're on RHEL it's more like "Three Languages, One Family" with 5.8.8 being the one Old Woman Redhat keeps locked in the upstairs bedroom, that the rest of the family whispers about.
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01:51 x19290 hello.
01:51 x19290 I'm using rakudo-star-2010.11.
01:51 x19290 I posted following message to perl6-{language,users}@perl.org
01:51 x19290 ----
01:51 x19290 Hello.
01:51 x19290 left #perl6
01:51 x19290 joined #perl6
01:52 x19290 Hello.
01:52 x19290 ?
01:53 colomon hello?
01:53 x19290_ joined #perl6
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01:53 sjohnson hi
01:54 sjohnson pastebin would have saved his connection
01:54 colomon ah
01:55 x19290 Hello again.
01:55 roen joined #perl6
01:55 x19290 I'm using rakudo-star-2010.11.
01:55 x19290 I posted following message to perl6-{language,users}@perl.org
01:55 x19290 ----
01:55 x19290 Hello.
01:55 colomon posting messages here won't work.
01:55 x19290 Thanks.
01:56 x19290 My problem was,
01:56 x19290 my $h = open '/dev/urandom', :r
01:56 x19290 loop (;;) {
01:56 x19290 $h.getc;
01:56 x19290 }
01:57 colomon oh, that message
01:57 x19290 spits Malformed UTF-8 string error.
01:57 x19290 Andrew Whitworth
01:57 x19290 told me to open a ticket at trac.parrot.org.
01:57 x19290 Moriz told me
01:58 x19290 it can be fixed by
01:58 x19290 my $h = open '/dev/urandom', :bin;
01:58 x19290 $*OUT.write: $h.read(10)
01:58 x19290 But Moriz's code spits same UTF-8 error.
01:59 x19290 So I'm planning to open a ticket at trac.parrot.org but
01:59 Eth4n joined #perl6
01:59 x19290 I'm so novice to do this.
01:59 x19290 Any idea?
01:59 x19290 Thanks.
01:59 colomon Does it spit out the error if you leave out the $*OUT part -- that is, if you just read the file without writing it out again?
02:00 x19290 Without $*OUT part, same error.
02:01 colomon okay
02:02 colomon anyone out there have advice on reporting Parrot bugs?
02:03 colomon (though the most straightforward but least directly helpful suggestion might be to check on #parrot instead.)
02:03 sorear go to trac.parrot.org, follow directions
02:04 colomon that's on irc.perl.org, rather than freenode.
02:04 colomon sorear: I don't see any obvious bug reporting directions there.
02:04 noganex_ joined #perl6
02:04 sorear colomon: it would be spelled "new ticket"
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02:05 sorear pmurias-- # "it doesn't compile".  It would help if I knew the error, and a paste that expired in <24h isn't good enough
02:05 colomon sorear: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot does not contain the phrase "new ticket" when I load it.
02:05 Eth4n left #perl6
02:06 x19290 PARROT-SRC/parrotbug?
02:06 Eth4n joined #perl6
02:06 colomon sorear: it's almost like they don't actually want people reporting bugs...
02:07 sorear colomon: it does for me.  did you remember to log in?
02:07 noganex left #perl6
02:07 colomon you have to log in to get instructions on reporting bugs?!
02:07 x19290 so how to create my account?
02:08 sorear "Register"
02:09 sorear colomon: welcome to the 21st century.  spammers love Trac.
02:09 sorear I'm not happy about it either
02:10 x19290 I clicke "Register" and
02:10 x19290 get https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/parrot/register Not Found
02:10 colomon that's serious suckage compared to "Bugs can be submitted by sending an email to rakudobug@perl.org."
02:10 sorear "... and waiting two weeks for our overworked moderators to catch up with the queue."
02:12 x19290 again how about PARROT-SRC/parrotbug?
02:12 flussence oh, the age-old problem of letting people in but keeping spambots out... :(
02:12 sorear x19290: I recommend asking #parrot
02:13 x19290 ok i will join #parrot
02:13 x19290 Thanks.
02:13 x19290 Bye
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03:13 [Coke] email does work.
03:15 [Coke] You can open a new parrot ticket by emailing tickets at parrot.org
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06:24 Agu10_ hi
06:25 Gryllida Agu10_: jenk gave wrong advice
06:25 Gryllida ...
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06:25 Agu10_ oh
06:25 Agu10_ Gryllida, are you sure?
06:25 Agu10_ Gryllida, I'll just try
06:25 Gryllida yes.
06:25 jenk my mistake
06:25 Gryllida no.
06:25 Agu10_ I'll just try and
06:25 Agu10_ we'll se
06:25 Gryllida no...
06:25 Gryllida It's a Perl language channel.
06:25 Agu10_ uh? who should I trust?
06:25 sorear Who is jenk?
06:25 Gryllida the /topic
06:25 sorear What is happening?
06:26 Gryllida sorear: jenk told Agu10_ it's #flood-like channel
06:26 sorear jenk isn't in the /topic
06:26 Gryllida Agu10_: when in doubt, just stay within the /topic
06:26 Agu10_ Gryllida, it does not say wht I can or cannot do
06:26 Gryllida Agu10_: flooding at #flood is ok, obviously :)
06:26 Agu10_ ok
06:26 Agu10_ Gryllida, thanks, I'll do that
06:27 Gryllida Alright.
06:27 Agu10_ and where to troll?
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07:22 sorear TimToady: ping (following comments)
07:22 sorear while trying to convert niecza to store only one copy of the symbol table, I ran into an inconsistancy with STD and the specs
07:22 sorear consider 'module Foo; sub bar is export {}'
07:22 sorear STD currently creates UNIT::EXPORT::DEFAULT::bar, which is not accessible from GLOBAL
07:23 sorear S11:89 says that Foo::EXPORT::DEFAULT::bar should be created
07:37 dalek niecza: 00b8bdc | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
07:37 dalek niecza: Derive STD syml from Niecza tables instead of saving both
07:37 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/00b8bdcf02
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07:43 sorear TimToady: What is the semantic difference between STD.is_known and STD.is_name ?
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08:31 moritz_ good morning
08:33 sorear hello moritz_
08:33 VXZ g'mornin
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08:36 tadzik o/
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09:49 dalek niecza: 7ab22da | sorear++ | src/ (3 files):
09:49 dalek niecza: Reload module info from nam files.  Remove storable dep.
09:49 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/7ab22da574
09:51 diakopter sorear: does niecza do labels/gotos
09:52 sorear only at the codegen level
09:52 sorear &goto isn't available, but regex code desugars to use goto/labels
09:52 diakopter i'd test it with p6eval, but that seems broken at the moment
09:53 dalek sprixel: e0ff4d4 | diakopter++ | / (9 files):
09:53 dalek sprixel: if/unless/elsif/else lexical blocks working. no return values for those blocks, though, 'cuz I'm a hater. now for labels/gotos.
09:53 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/e0ff4d44c8
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10:03 dalek niecza: 7c0434c | sorear++ | src/CompilerDriver.pm:
10:03 dalek niecza: Do not load dependant modules more than once
10:03 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/7c0434cb10
10:04 * sorear out
10:04 diakopter cya
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10:09 dalek sprixel: c2eb6f7 | diakopter++ | / (6 files):
10:09 dalek sprixel: labels/gotos working :)
10:09 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/c2eb6f761e
10:23 diakopter but no, one cannot goto from an eval EXPR to an outer label ;).  cuz that would just be wrong.
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10:38 TiMBuS is time not a sub
10:38 TiMBuS rakudo: say time
10:38 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1293619113␤»
10:38 TiMBuS rakudo: say time()
10:38 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Could not find sub &time␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/3o9S_u7lUE␤»
10:38 TiMBuS i uh
10:38 TiMBuS what is this wizardry
10:49 diakopter rakudo: say time
10:49 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1293619765␤»
10:49 diakopter rakudo: say time.WHAT
10:49 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Int()␤»
10:49 diakopter rakudo: say &time.WHAT
10:49 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Could not find sub &time␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/HvI4mKeKGK␤»
10:53 dalek sprixel: 67fc74f | diakopter++ | / (6 files):
10:53 dalek sprixel: implicitly typed lexical declaration/initialization (not actually type inference, it's really just magic).
10:53 dalek sprixel: add file invocation option
10:53 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/67fc74fba3
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10:59 dalek sprixel: 89046db | diakopter++ | sprixel/Program.cs:
10:59 dalek sprixel: fix file invocation option
10:59 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/89046db71a
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11:26 Demonen Hi all.
11:27 Demonen I'm having truble finding precombiled rakudo binaries for Ubuntu 9.10.  Is there such a thing?
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11:34 diakopter seems unlikely
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11:37 dalek sprixel: f3bd3d0 | diakopter++ | sprixel/sprixel.csproj:
11:37 dalek sprixel: cut .dll references; more prep for p6eval. will need to upgrade mono on p6eval server to 2.8+
11:37 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/f3bd3d02c8
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11:38 TiMBuS the only place i could think of finding one would be on launchpad
11:38 TiMBuS and a quick search there only finds a very old rakudo someone uploaded last year
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11:49 TiMBuS rakudo: multi foo($a where {say 'hmm..'}){}; foo(1);
11:49 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«hmm..␤hmm..␤»
11:50 TiMBuS called twice?
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12:00 colomon Don't put side effects in your where clauses.
12:00 colomon I'm pretty sure there's no guarantee how often they will be called.
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12:10 colomon rakudo: multi foo($a where {say 'hmm..'}){}; multi foo($a where {say 'Boo!'; 0; }) {}; say "go"; foo(1)
12:10 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«go␤hmm..␤Boo!␤hmm..␤»
12:15 TiMBuS i dont even know how i got to this, i was just trying to figure out why a where cause would never fail when i smartmatched a param against an empty hash..
12:16 colomon rakudo: my %h; say "ten" ~~ %h
12:16 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
12:16 colomon rakudo: my %h; say Any ~~ %h
12:16 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
12:17 TiMBuS yeah thats what im not understanding
12:17 colomon yeah, getting Bool::True there would seem very odd indeed.
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12:19 TiMBuS multi method joined ( $ev where {$ev.who<nick> ~~ %messages} ) {
12:19 TiMBuS say $ev.who<nick>; #prints 'Clunky'
12:19 TiMBuS say %messages.perl; #prints '{}'
12:20 TiMBuS eeegh i think ill figure it out tomorrow.
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12:27 masak greetings, zebras.
12:29 masak what in the name of Zarquon happened tonight to bring in so many newbies at once?
12:31 * masak places his bets on Advent Calendar + vacation
12:31 masak there is also more activity on p6u.
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13:12 shortcircuit p6u?
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13:14 shortcircuit masak: As a way to get a feel for developer perspectives, I mentioned the Perl 6 planet in a high-profile comment on the recent Slashdot article about Tim's advent post.
13:14 shortcircuit (For whatever definitions of 'high profile' remain in Slashcode, anyway)
13:15 masak shortcircuit: URL?
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13:15 shortcircuit sec
13:15 masak Slashdot is an exercise in skewed perspectives, but any outlinks from it are a net win, if you ask me.
13:15 shortcircuit http://developers.slashdot.org/story/10/12/24/​1934221/23-Years-of-Culture-Hacking-With-Perl
13:16 * shortcircuit nods
13:16 masak thanks.
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13:16 shortcircuit RC more or less debuted with a Slashdot post. I was on a 'shared hosting' account at the time. That was a pretty mess.
13:17 masak oh, that comment. yeah, I saw it. that might have contributed, true.
13:17 masak I would have made the connection if you hadn't referred to TimToady as "Tim" :P
13:17 shortcircuit Heh
13:17 frettled nice one :D
13:17 masak indeed. shortcircuit++
13:18 frettled "Which Tim, Berners-Lee or Toady?"
13:18 * shortcircuit avoids pinging people, by default
13:18 masak why?
13:19 shortcircuit For whatever reason, most people I've encountered on IRC don't like to be pinged unless they need to respond.
13:20 * shortcircuit shrugs
13:20 shortcircuit Anyway, it looks like the comment in which I linked to the planet isn't as highly-modded as I thought.
13:21 shortcircuit Er, yes it is, but I forgot to linkify the reference. -.-
13:21 shortcircuit I did specifically mention the IRC channel in another comment, though.
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13:26 takadonet hey
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13:26 shortcircuit o/
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13:27 takadonet http://www.reddit.com/r/programmi​ng/comments/et20j/perl_6_in_2010/
13:28 takadonet our lovely troll HIBOU is back
13:29 masak I replied to him.
13:29 takadonet he replied to your reply...
13:30 masak I'm currently replying to Mr. "great way to make code unreadable" imperi
13:31 takadonet you have to work faster masak :)
13:32 masak :)
13:33 huf the language isnt readable without learning the language! what're we going to dooooooo?!
13:38 takadonet wow! lots of comments for only 4 up votes
13:39 masak http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/c​omments/et20j/perl_6_in_2010/c1apbzt
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13:47 pmurias masak: why do you insist on replying to stupid people?
13:48 masak pmurias: because impressionable people are reading what they write.
13:49 masak what seems stupid to you may seem "hm, maybe he's right" to J. Random Redditer.
13:50 pmurias do we care about J. Random Redditer? ;)
13:50 masak as a potential lurker and reformed contributor on #perl6, sure.
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13:52 masak responding to stupid criticisms might be the best chance at PR we get, besides the Advent Calendar and release announcements of different kinds.
13:58 * diakopter agrees with masak
13:58 diakopter (at least until momentum gets huge)
13:58 pmurias any one knows a sensible FRP (decently documented) library in *any* language?
13:58 masak the *discussions* are often quite meaningless. but stepping up and defending Perl 6, the devs, or the community often isn't.
13:58 pmurias s/sensible//
13:59 masak Fibre-reinforced plastic?
14:00 masak Flint River Presbytery?
14:00 masak Federal Republic of the Philippines?
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14:04 flussence I was thinking the best thing to do with all these people who criticise p6 without using it, is tricking them into using it
14:04 flussence give them a libp6cre and show them how easy it is to do stuff
14:05 takadonet flussence:  libp6cre?
14:05 flussence obviously it doesn't exist yet...
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14:06 flussence just a basic library that can do grammars and actions, not necessarily perl 6 itself
14:06 flussence like libxslt I guess
14:07 flussence but easy enough for normal humans to understand :)
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14:09 * masak has been thinking of writing a libp6cre
14:10 masak flussence: I'm not a master at retorts, but something tells me it's counterproductive to insult people on a personal level on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/c​omments/et20j/perl_6_in_2010/c1ape78
14:10 masak s/at/of/
14:10 flussence yes :(
14:10 * flussence downvotes self and deletes
14:11 masak somehow chromatic++ always succeds in replying on a factual level to things. even when he's being attacked.
14:11 * moritz_ submitted to HN too: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2048703
14:11 masak moritz_++
14:11 masak HN, a chance to be insulted by Lisp weenies rather than Python/Ruby weenies! :P
14:12 flussence I shouldn't post things on reddit when I'm half-awake...  I seem to do better when I'm half-asleep
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14:19 VXZ Why is p6 so poorly recieved by so many?  I don't hardly ever hear anyone talking about how exciting it is, or how cool it's going to be when it's production-ready.  Wtf?
14:19 masak I'm hearing people saying they're excited by it. but the proportion is about 1 to 9 to all the cargo-culted bullying.
14:20 masak incidentally, that's about the proportion of people who have a relatively open mind and go find things out by themselves... :)
14:20 sjn VXZ: Start doing it yourself, then maybe some of your friends might too ;-)
14:21 pmurias masak: functional reactive programming
14:21 VXZ sjn: Unfortunately, I know no other programmers.
14:21 masak pmurias: I've heard liqui talk about that on Twitter. maybe ask him.
14:22 sjn VXZ: doesn't matter. if they hear "Wow this Perl 6 thing is cool", they might take the buzz to their friends that _are_ programmers :)
14:22 VXZ Maybe it just needs to be packaged differently or something...p6 needs a marketing & pr department or something?
14:22 sjn "Hey, I'm not a programmer, but I heard Perl 6 seems to be a cool thing, what do you think?"
14:23 sjn marketing and pr dept's are for businesses.
14:24 sjn if we're not willing to talk about what we think is cool, then there's something wrong with _us_
14:24 sjn having a marketing dept fix that is hardly the right approach
14:25 masak "We suck at marketing... but we think Perl 6 is pretty cool." :)
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14:26 VXZ *shrug*  It's just a concept.  I don't think it has to only apply to businesses.  But if it makes you feel any better, I do make a point of talking about how cool I think p6 is when I sense a person might know what I'm talking about.
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14:27 sjn VXZ: what do you usually say then?
14:27 sjn i.e. what features do you chose to talk about?
14:28 pmurias convincing people that a non-production ready language is cool is hard
14:28 VXZ Metaops, hyperops, nicer regexes, ...
14:30 VXZ sigil invariance, too, if I'm talking to a non-perl programmer
14:30 masak best way I've seen so far is jnthn++'s "Solved in Perl 6" talks: http://jnthn.net/papers/2009-bpw-solved.pdf
14:30 sjn pmurias: rubbish. things can be cool even if they're not written in stone ;)
14:30 takadonet I'm lucky that I can use any programming language at work as long as i can justified why it's the best tool for the job.  Currently that only means small scripts. Speed is the only thing stopping me from using it in large projects.
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14:32 masak takadonet: you should toy around a bit with niecza, then.
14:32 takadonet masak: already have :)
14:32 masak takadonet: fewer features than rakudo, but the runtime speed is significantly higher.
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14:38 takadonet cya everyone later
14:38 takadonet os re-install time
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14:41 tadzik Demonen: there are
14:43 huf http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/c​omments/et20j/perl_6_in_2010/c1aph1c HUH?
14:45 tadzik Demonen: but seems as it's Rakudo only, not Star: https://launchpad.net/~dexter/+archive/rakudo-pkg
14:49 masak huf: it may be a contrary opinion, but at least it's coherent and not filled with bile.
14:49 huf true, but it's the dumbest non-troll thing i've read all week
14:50 masak really? I'm currently trying to reason out why I don't agree with it.
14:50 huf where do these people live when they're not on the net spouting insanities? (the people that expect to know a language without learning it)
14:51 huf you cant even say what's a nuance and what's not without first learning it properly...
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14:52 masak huf: I replied: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/c​omments/et20j/perl_6_in_2010/c1api52
14:53 huf masak: still, i feel the main point lots of them bring up is "hurr durr i cant read this just now, it must be gibberish"
14:54 huf i feel something has to be done on that point
14:54 masak there will always be people reasoning that way.
14:55 masak in related news, why does Lisp have so many parentheses? :)
14:55 masak they must really like parentheses or something.
14:55 huf because back then they didnt have perl6 to do it right? :)
14:57 VXZ If these "readability" people had their way, we'd be using loops and single-character comparisons instead of regular expressions.
14:58 huf no, i suspect in most cases we'd be using regexes in python
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14:58 huf because through some very very strange coincidence, the language they already grok is easily readable
14:58 huf odd, that
14:59 colomon I've got to say, IMO it's hard to imagine a more readable version of the Fib sequence than
14:59 colomon 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, *+* ... *
15:00 colomon I suspect anyone who was familiar with the idea of the sequence and didn't have any preconceptions about programming could understand what that code does.
15:01 colomon (without understanding the details at all, perhaps.)
15:02 huf i think they could guess at best
15:02 huf the *+* is odd if you dont know what it is
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15:02 huf not that you need to actually *do* much to understand it
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15:03 huf i can grasp most of the example p6 code i see easily, and i've done almost nothing in the language
15:03 colomon but that's looking at it like a programmer.  If you like at it like a mathematician, you know the sequence is defined by addition, and hey, there's a + sign there -- that must be what does the addition!
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15:03 huf :)
15:04 Juerd I think it's a bit easier to read as * + *
15:04 huf i'll ask my dad if he can guess it
15:04 huf (he's more of a mathematician than a programmer)
15:04 Juerd *+* looks like an operator with metaoperators
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15:05 szabgab don't forget that operators are much harder to read tahn words if you are not familiar with them
15:06 VXZ This is a good point about readability.  It assumes a lot to say one thing is 'more readable' than another in some supposed universally-true kind of sense.  I might even go so far as to say that kind of statement can be indicitive of short-sightedness, ignorance, or self-centeredness.
15:06 szabgab so he fact that perl is so much operator driven indeed makes it easier to write for an expert and harder to read for a beginner
15:06 masak szabgab: that's very true.
15:07 huf hm, really? operators are that hard?
15:08 szabgab the words you usually already know from other languages
15:08 szabgab the operators are a lot more different among languages
15:08 szabgab and thay are definietly not used in English
15:08 Juerd szabgab: hsao ntheurd anothpc asnoth
15:08 szabgab or is that jus me who does not use punctuation ?
15:08 Juerd szabgab: In other words: that's not true, at all.
15:08 pmurias made up words such as car and cdr are equally unreadable as operators
15:08 huf hm, but knowing english doesnt really help with the wordy things either
15:09 Juerd Words are equally impossible to read if you don't know them.
15:09 huf but what's not a made-up-word in programming?
15:09 colomon It seems to me that operators are definitely harder to just understand than words are, but I don't think it's a beginner / expert thing at all.
15:09 szabgab Juerd: that's true
15:09 huf everything has its own special meaning in the context of a proglang
15:09 colomon You could teach all the basic operators you're likely to run into in p6 in an hour, I'd say.
15:09 szabgab but  @qqrq.length is easier to read than $@qqrq
15:09 mdxi in any notation system, symbolic concision is *always* a power/readability tradeoff.
15:09 szabgab $#qqrq
15:10 huf szabgab: but why?
15:10 huf i'm not convinced at all
15:10 colomon and once you have the operators, well-written code using them is usually quite an improvement in clarity.
15:10 huf also $#array isnt the same as @array.length (i hope)
15:10 szabgab it is easier for someone who knows english and maybe another programming language
15:11 Juerd szabgab: Well, I associate "length" with lines, and # with numbers.
15:11 Juerd szabgab: So for the *number* of elements, $#foo does make more sense to me.
15:11 huf it probably wouldnt help anyone coming from c
15:12 huf so yeah, "remaining similar to similar languages will help people coming from those languages"
15:12 huf not sure that's a worthy goal
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15:12 szabgab huf: what I say is that I understand they have difficulty
15:12 Juerd The word "length" only began to make sense to me, for arrays, when I already knew some programming
15:12 szabgab coming from other languages
15:13 huf szabgab: oh sure, i get that part. what i dont understand is where the arrogance comes from to say "i cant read it just now, so must be their fault"
15:13 szabgab huf: I think it is a general human trait :)
15:13 pmurias huf: how would you like it if ! was the addition operator?
15:13 huf the reaction i'd expect in such cases is to quickly google for some tutorial, or at the least stfu ;)
15:14 huf pmurias: it'd take some getting used to, but i hope i'd try to look up the rationale before spouting bile
15:14 huf see, i wasnt entirely happy with the ??!! thing, but then i read why it had to be done, and i'm willing to accept it
15:14 szabgab huf: I think it is very human to "I don't understand, this must be crap"
15:14 szabgab not clever, but human
15:15 huf eh ;)
15:15 huf i dont like us.
15:15 szabgab :)
15:15 szabgab btw can you google for *+* ?
15:15 szabgab ok, rephrashe: do you get any good results ?
15:16 Juerd szabgab: But should you design a language around Google's capabilities?
15:16 Juerd SEO for your programming language?
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15:16 huf maybe duckduckgo could solve this for perl5 and 6
15:17 szabgab Juerd: sure not but that is just anothr step we need in the education
15:17 flussence huf: maybe they could forward /!perl6 (.*)/ to tryrakudo :)
15:17 szabgab where to go to *easily* look up code snippets
15:18 huf google's codesearch deals with punctuation better, but the results are... well
15:18 huf a bit without context
15:19 Juerd szabgab: A Perl documentation website should just have its own specific searchengine that, when you type *+*, says it's composed of * and +, mention their respective contexts and provide links to the more specific documentation
15:19 pmurias there was a project trying to achive that
15:21 szabgab Juerd: and any reasonable Perl IDE should have that capability :)
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15:25 Juerd szabgab: I don't use IDEs myself so I don't think in that direction at all.
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15:46 * colomon just paused the blog post he was writing, so he can add a new function to List::Utils for use in the post.  :)
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15:49 masak colomon++
15:50 masak I'm curious which function... but I'm prepared to wait for the post :)
15:52 colomon I'm calling it sorted-merge
15:53 masak I get it.
15:53 masak good name.
15:53 colomon it's lazy.  :)
15:54 colomon and it's pushed.
15:54 colomon I don't think it's a particularly elegant implementation (heavily drugged once again today) but it seems to work.
15:54 masak MJD would be proud :)
15:55 colomon If only I could aspire to that level.  :)
15:56 masak Perl 6 certainly makes it easier :)
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15:58 colomon sure enough.
15:58 colomon whoops!
15:58 colomon and the logic is actually reversed from what I need for my blog post.
15:58 colomon hmmm....
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15:59 masak this is why dogfooding is a good thing.
16:01 colomon indeed!
16:01 colomon guess I just need to make sorted-merge smarter.
16:01 masak please make it as dunb as you can get away with. your users will thank you :)
16:07 colomon when I say "smarter", I mean, add another (optional) parameter for comparison function
16:07 masak I suspected that.
16:07 masak just make sure the extra customizability doesn't get in the way of the most common uses.
16:07 masak that's obvious, but I'm pointing it out anyway.
16:07 colomon not, "I will use weak AI to try to guess how the lists in question are sorted"
16:07 colomon :)
16:07 masak no please no :)
16:07 colomon see, you use the logic from the sequence operator... ;)
16:07 flussence rakudo: say (1,2 XZXZXZ+ 3,4) ~ '   ' ~ (1,2 X+ 3,4) # what happens to the first one here?
16:07 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«4 5 5 6   4 5 5 6␤»
16:07 masak flussence: sir, you just blew my mental stack.
16:07 colomon same here
16:07 masak flussence: is the question serious?
16:07 flussence I was just poking around, and wondering wtf happened myself
16:07 masak flussence: when you find out, please let us know :P
16:07 * masak likes p6u today
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16:14 * colomon admits that *.abs R<=> *.abs is probably not completely obvious to someone who doesn't know p6 operators and whatever.
16:15 flussence apart from the R, a lot of that makes sense in p5 terms...
16:15 masak if the R metaop is in a &sort block, it can usually be replaced by a .reverse after the .sort
16:16 colomon masak: but that definitely will not work for a sorted merge of two infinite lists.
16:17 masak true.
16:17 masak which... in some semi-twisted sense... is an argument for the R metaop. :)
16:18 colomon it's definitely shorter (and once you understand it, probably clearer) than -> $a, $b { $b.abs <=> $a.abs }
16:18 colomon I dunno, I can see reasons to favor both.
16:18 colomon either.
16:18 masak niecza: grammar G { token TOP { <para> ** [\n\n] }; token para { [ . <!before \n\n> ]+ } }; say ?G.parse("foo\nbar\n\nbaz")
16:18 p6eval niecza 406e042: OUTPUT«Can't locate JSON.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/p6eval/niecza/src /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.1 /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.10 /usr/share/perl/5.10 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NAMBackend.pm
16:18 p6eval ..line 1…
16:18 masak locally, "Bool::False".
16:18 masak tell me, am I overlooking something here?
16:19 masak or should that one match?
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16:20 flussence looks right from where I'm standing.
16:20 * masak submits nieczabug
16:23 flussence does it work for parsing a single <para>?
16:23 masak it does.
16:24 flussence hm
16:24 masak it also works when I replace the [ . <!before \n\n> ]+ with \w+ (and remove the in-para \n)
16:24 [particle] does it work in rakudo?
16:24 flussence yes.
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16:24 masak rakudo: grammar G { token TOP { <para> ** [\n\n] }; token para { [ . <!before \n\n> ]+ } }; say ?G.parse("foo\nbar\nbaz")
16:24 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
16:24 [particle] it's nice to have a reference implementation.
16:25 masak s/a reference implementation/two implementations/
16:25 masak :)
16:25 flussence s/.*/competition of some sort/
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16:25 [particle] another implementation to reference. :P
16:25 WonTu left #perl6
16:26 flussence silly thought, but have you tried <para> ** "\n\n" instead of []s?
16:26 masak yes.
16:26 masak er, wait. no.
16:27 masak that shouldn't matter at all.
16:27 masak but it does! o.O
16:27 masak flussence++
16:28 flussence stranger things have happened :)
16:28 masak niecza: grammar G { token TOP { <para> ** "\n\n" }; token para { [ . <!before \n\n> ]+ } }; say ?G.parse("foo\nbar\nbaz")
16:28 p6eval niecza 406e042: OUTPUT«Can't locate JSON.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/p6eval/niecza/src /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.1 /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.10 /usr/share/perl/5.10 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NAMBackend.pm
16:28 p6eval ..line 1…
16:28 masak locally, "Bool::True".
16:28 flussence I got my xmms code to work just by replacing "-->"s with "returns"
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16:29 flussence it shouldn't matter, but we're not at that point yet :)
16:29 masak true enough.
16:29 masak also, I don't know enough about the parser in niecza to say whether it should matter or not.
16:31 flussence I saw it as one of 3 things being wrong: ** not working, [] confusing **, or strings longer than 1 char confusing **. I guessed right that time :)
16:33 VXZ So, 'say (1,2 XZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZXZ+ 3,4)' has been running for about 20 minutes, now...my laptop's fan sounds like a jet engine at this point...
16:33 * [Coke] catches up, and imagines instead of a PAST outputting PIR, have it output highlighted HTML.
16:35 flussence VXZ: I've no idea what it does, but the end result is always the same as $first-letter + $operator
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16:37 masak flussence: you would have a great career in bug hunting. join me in my quest against bugs! :)
16:37 VXZ flussence: Yeah, I thought that might be the case.  I did it to see if it was actually doing something with all the rest, which, apparently, it is.  Now I'm just kinda exercising my appreciation of absurdity.  :)
16:40 VXZ What is it *supposed* to do?  I know what X and Z do, didn't know you could put them together like that.
16:40 flussence now that I think about it... nothing
16:41 flussence X takes a single pair, feeds it to another Z or X (no-op), then adds them
16:44 flussence rakudo: say ( [[1, 2], [3, 4]] XZXZXZ=> [[5, 6], [7, 8]] ).perl
16:44 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«((((((1 => 5)))), ((((2 => 6))))), (((((1 => 7)))), ((((2 => 8))))), (((((3 => 5)))), ((((4 => 6))))), (((((3 => 7)))), ((((4 => 8))))))␤»
16:44 masak o.O
16:45 allbery_b your pairs, they are nesting.  watch out for babies
16:45 flussence that one's a bit easier to read if I take out the absurdity:
16:46 flussence rakudo: say ( [[1, 2], [3, 4]] XZ=> [[5, 6], [7, 8]] ).perl
16:46 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«((1 => 5, 2 => 6), (1 => 7, 2 => 8), (3 => 5, 4 => 6), (3 => 7, 4 => 8))␤»
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16:48 VXZ hm
16:55 huf well, apparently {{{ 1, 1, 2, *+* ... * }}} is unreadable at first glance to a couple of rather experienced c/python coders i know (one of which also knows lisp/haskell); my dad (whose last serious programming experience was in some kind of asm) got it at once ;)
16:55 colomon huf: just as I was (sort of) predicting.
16:56 colomon and \o/, my code approximates pi a lot better if you subtract the atan(1/239) term rather than adding it.
16:57 huf colomon: hmm?
16:58 colomon just before drifting off for a vicodin-fueled mini-nap, my code was insisting 3.17506526160639 was a very good approximation for pi
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16:58 allbery_b mmm, drug-mediated coding
16:59 pmurias sorear: ping
16:59 colomon that's because I was using PI/4 = atan(1) = 4 * atan(1/5) + atan(1/239) instead of the correct PI/4 = atan(1) = 4 * atan(1/5) - atan(1/239)
16:59 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
16:59 colomon pmichaud: \o/
16:59 colomon rakudo: say atan(1/239)
16:59 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«0.00418407600207472␤»
16:59 masak pmichaud! \o/
16:59 colomon rakudo: say pi + 2*atan(1/239)
16:59 masak pmichaud: when you're gone, we miss you.
16:59 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«3.14996080559394␤»
16:59 TimToady * *, *
17:00 pmichaud masak: sorry to have not been around much lately
17:00 colomon TimToady: two terms in a row?
17:00 TimToady I was speaking in English
17:00 colomon rakudo: say pi + 8*atan(1/239)
17:00 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«3.17506526160639␤»
17:00 flussence the middle * represents XZXZXZXZXZ
17:00 masak pmichaud: it's OK. will there be a Star release tomorrow?
17:01 pmichaud today or tomororw, yes.
17:01 colomon huf: it will all make sense when I get this blog post finished; and the blog post will be easier to finish now that I don't have to justify pi being 3.17506526160639
17:01 pmichaud then one in jan, then we'll move to a 3-mo cycle
17:02 masak VXZ: a Perl 5 user who likes Perl 6: http://twitter.com/blackfo​g/status/20159288743829504
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17:05 pmurias masak: i'm adding $a -> {...} to niecza
17:06 masak nice.
17:06 masak I missed it for if statements, at the point where ~~ on a regex didn't set $/
17:06 masak that was... days ago. :)
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17:09 pmichaud have to leave (wife needs computer) -- bbl
17:10 masak nom &
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17:17 pmurias sorear: Can't use an undefined value as an ARRAY reference at /home/pawel/niecza/src/NAMBackend.pm line 96.
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17:18 moritz_ niecza: say 1
17:18 p6eval niecza 406e042: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to load setting SAFE. at /tmp/Xj2loUEggX line 1:␤------> [32m<BOL>[33m⏏[31msay 1[0m␤Undeclared routine:␤       'say' used at line 1␤Check failed␤»
17:19 * moritz_ recompiles it
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17:20 moritz_ lib/CLRBackend.cs(421,38): error CS0411: The type arguments for method `Niecza.CLRBackend.JScalar.A<T>(int, object, System.Func<object,T>)' cannot be inferred from the usage. Try specifying the type arguments explicitly
17:20 colomon loliblogged: http://justrakudoit.wordpress.com​/2010/12/29/series-and-sequences/
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17:22 moritz_ colomon++
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17:25 [Coke] ooh, blogspam on blogs.perl.org. whee.
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17:27 [Coke] colomon++ - that was an interesting read, and not just for perl6. danke.
17:28 TimToady ooh, it's snowing
17:29 TimToady 'course, I am in Seattle now...
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17:31 dalek sprixel: 3abb581 | diakopter++ | / (8 files):
17:31 dalek sprixel: return statement, default return values from subs
17:31 dalek sprixel: (last statement's return value (or 1 if the last statement returned void))
17:31 dalek sprixel: hacked-in logical operators (need to be made short-circuiting and to
17:31 dalek sprixel: use temp locals instead of this thrown-together way. about 20 min work, sometime.
17:31 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/3abb58188c
17:31 takadonet yo
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17:32 TimToady oy
17:32 [particle] it's not snowing in this part of seattle :(
17:34 diakopter it's not snowing in this part of sfbay
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18:16 sorear pmurias: hi
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18:22 sorear pmurias: I heard you had a compile problem yesterday, but you set the paste to expire before I woke up.  Very cruel.
18:22 sorear good * #perl6
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18:23 takadonet sorear: yo
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18:33 takadonet wow lots of comments on that reddit post
18:33 colomon takadonet: link, pretty please?
18:33 takadonet colomon: http://www.reddit.com/r/programmi​ng/comments/et20j/perl_6_in_2010/
18:34 colomon takadonet++
18:35 pmurias sorear: i use App::Nopaste
18:35 pmurias sorear: hi
18:36 pmurias sorear: i solved the compile problem by upgrading to the newest mono
18:37 takadonet never had soo many comments on a reddit post with less then 10 upvotes
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18:40 [Coke] reddit question - they allow duplicate postings?
18:40 colomon huh.  Is it just me, or is masak's p3 radically easier than p1, p2, or p5?  (Haven't actually looked at p4 yet.)
18:41 takadonet if they are on different sub reddit yes
18:41 pmurias sorear: the new one is Can't use an undefined value as an ARRAY reference at /home/pawel/niecza/src/NAMBackend.pm line 96.
18:42 takadonet ic someone else posted a hour ago
18:43 [Coke] e.g. http://www.reddit.com/search?q=perl+6&​amp;restrict_sr=off&amp;sort=relevance - first 2 links are to the same URL.
18:43 pmurias sorear: rm -fr obj;xbuild solves that too
18:43 takadonet [Coke]: one is posted in r/programming and other is in r/perl
18:44 [Coke] takadonet: ok. that raises other questions, but thank you.
18:44 colomon I don't have a reddit id, but it might be worth pointing out that all the Haskell examples for fib are for the simpler case of an infinite Fib sequence, while the perl 6 version is explicitly terminating the sequence.  The perl 6 version without termination is simpler, naturally.
18:47 sorear rakudo: grammar G { token TOP { <para> ** "\n\n" }; token para { [ . <!before \n\n> ]+ } }; say ?G.parse("foo\nbar\n\nbaz")
18:47 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
18:47 sorear rakudo: grammar G { token TOP { <para> ** "\n\n" }; token para { [ . <!before \n\n> ]+ } }; say ~G.parse("foo\nbar\n\nbaz")
18:47 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«foo␤ba␤»
18:49 flussence rakudo: grammar G { token TOP { <para> ** "\n\n" }; token para { [ <!before \n\n> . ]+ } }; say ~G.parse("foo\nbar\n\nbaz")
18:49 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«foo␤bar␤␤baz␤»
18:49 pmurias sorear: what does setting the ->type for a block do?
18:50 sorear enables odd special-case behavior
18:51 sorear like 'init' blocks are automatically added to the phaser queue
18:52 sorear "voidbare" and "mainline" blocks are subject to having their lexicals transformed into globals
18:53 sorear there used to be a lot more uses of block type, but most of them seem to have died in the niecza/mm branch
18:54 pmurias the ->type thing seems a bit crude
18:54 sorear I agree
18:54 sorear it's a hack that outlived its design life
18:56 pmurias i'll finish if ... -> $a {...} and see what i can do about that
18:56 pmurias sorear: would having a niecza backend to any member of the lisp family be helpfull?
18:56 sorear it looks like there are only four used values of type
18:56 * pmurias has to write a project in lisp for a course
18:57 TimToady just convince them that Perl 6 is a dialect of Lisp
18:57 sorear regex (Metamodel.pm 979), init/end (Metamodel.pm 964), voidbare (Metamodel.pm 1179)
18:57 sorear after git grep -e '->type'
18:58 pmurias TimToady: can i quote you?
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18:58 pmurias ;)
18:58 TimToady in general, I can't stop people from quoting me...
18:59 pmurias hm, i could use liskell...
19:00 TimToady perlisp
19:00 sorear pmurias: the second backend would probably be important no matter what it targets
19:00 colomon TimToady: sitting here pondering if p6 should have car and cdr methods...  (head and tail?)
19:00 TimToady iirc, elf had a clisp backend that you might learn something from
19:00 allbery_b push/pop?
19:01 TimToady .key and .value
19:01 moritz_ .[0] and .[1..*]
19:01 pmurias TimToady: kp6 had a clisp backend
19:01 TimToady what do you thing 1 => 2 => 3 => 4 is?
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19:01 colomon moritz_: yes, I know how to do it now.
19:01 moritz_ TimToady: a bad idea?
19:01 TimToady :)
19:01 sorear 1 => 2 => 3 => 4 => EMPTY
19:02 tadzik rakudo: (1 => 2 => 3 => 4).perl.say
19:02 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1 => 2 => 3 => 4␤»
19:02 tadzik <lookofdisapproval>
19:02 TimToady rakudo: (1 => 2 => 3 => 4).value.perl.say
19:02 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«2 => 3 => 4␤»
19:02 TimToady there's your cdr
19:03 pmurias :)
19:03 sorear rakudo: sub foo { gather { take 1; return } }; my @x := foo; say "Hi"; say @x.perl
19:03 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Hi␤(Nil())␤»
19:03 TimToady if you want it, after moritz_++'s mean remark :)
19:03 colomon TimToady: I was rather hoping it would work on Lists, Arrays, etc.
19:03 sorear rakudo: sub foo { gather { take 1; die "pie" } }; my @x := foo; say "Hi"; say @x.perl
19:03 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Hi␤pie␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/cNFVK1mzJR␤  in 'Any::join' at line 1␤  in 'List::perl' at line 2772:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/cNFVK1mzJR␤»
19:04 TimToady obviously, you should put a coercion from those types into Any that turns it into a pair list
19:04 colomon I admit, part of wanting it at the moment is just that .[1..*] doesn't actually work in Rakudo (so far as I know)
19:04 moritz_ colomon: then use 1..*-1
19:04 colomon moritz_: doesn't work on an infinite list.
19:04 sorear TimToady: currently in niecza a nonlocal exit from a gather block is an untrappable fatal error.  How should it work?
19:04 TimToady rakudo: say Inf - 1
19:04 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Inf␤»
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19:04 TimToady why not?
19:05 TimToady :)
19:05 colomon :p
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19:05 LeifD rakudo: 1/0
19:05 p6eval rakudo :  ( no output )
19:05 TimToady sorear: it should work better :P
19:06 LeifD I get Inf. Should it not be NaN or something?
19:06 moritz_ rakudo: say 1/0
19:06 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Inf␤»
19:06 TimToady a gather that cannot be reentered should be GC'd eventually
19:06 pmurias sorear: documenting the nam opcodes seems to be something that would help with adding a backend considerably
19:07 moritz_ LeifD: probably, yes
19:07 TimToady rakudo: say -1/0
19:07 pmurias sorear: what does Op::LetVar do?
19:07 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«-Inf␤»
19:07 TimToady rakudo: say -1/-0
19:07 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«-Inf␤»
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19:08 TimToady I guess rakudo assumes that large values of 0 are positive :)
19:09 LeifD -0 = -1 * 0, so It should not be -Inf
19:09 colomon What got me thinking about it was http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/c​omments/et20j/perl_6_in_2010/c1apj5e
19:09 colomon fib = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fib (tail fib)
19:09 colomon my @fib := 0, 1, (@fib Z+ @fib[1..*]); # psuedo-p6 version
19:10 sorear TimToady: the caller() of a gather block will in general have already returned by the time gather code is run
19:10 sorear TimToady: so the gather has no place to return to
19:11 TimToady yes, it's a bug that self-referential lists tend to crash in rakudo
19:11 sorear TimToady: no, I'm asking about what gather { return } should do in niecza
19:12 TimToady I was speaking to colomon
19:12 sorear oh
19:12 moritz_ when I fix the blizkost build problems related to newest parrot changes, it complains:
19:12 colomon TimToady: would you expect that to work in ideal p6?
19:12 moritz_ src/pmc/bkmarshal.c:310: error: ‘my_perl’ undeclared (first use in this function)
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19:13 moritz_ and indeed, that var is not declared, and I wonder how it has ever worked
19:13 moritz_ any ideas?
19:13 pmurias sorear: gather {return} is invalid perl6 code
19:13 pmurias without an enclosing sub
19:13 sorear moritz_: your Perl was built without -DMULTIPLICITY
19:13 TimToady sorear: perhaps gather could just trap any return like a sub def
19:14 moritz_ sorear: so my_perl is a global variable if -DMULTIPLICITY is set?
19:14 sorear moritz_: no, it's an argument that is declared by the pTHX_ macro
19:14 moritz_ ah
19:14 TimToady or we could just say you can't use return in a gather
19:14 sorear TimToady: what about exceptions?
19:14 TimToady colomon: I've already expected it to work :)
19:14 sorear TimToady: if a gather block dies, where can it be caught?
19:15 TimToady in whatever triggered the lazy list in the first place
19:15 TimToady this is yet another reason why we are trying to de-emphasize exceptions in p6
19:16 TimToady it is not clear whether there should be a way for a fail() to be propagated through a lazy list
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19:17 TimToady though it's be speculated more than once
19:18 TimToady returning some sort of "caltrop" value that will pop your tires if you drive over it :)
19:18 Tene TimToady: S02 implies that augment is a lexically-scoped modification:
19:19 Tene Instead of defining macros directly you may also mix in one or more grammar rules by lexically scoped declaration of a new sublanguage:
19:19 Tene augment slang Regex {  # derive from $~Regex and then modify $~Regex
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19:21 TimToady colomon: for example, if you look at http://rosettacode.org/wiki​/Counting_in_factors#Perl_6 you'll see a lazy list that uses repeat/until with self-reference to @primes
19:22 TimToady it works with the repeat, but it doesn't with the obvious ... implementation
19:24 colomon I think I see another List::Util function coming on...  ;)
19:24 * diakopter can't even parse the last hour of irclog
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19:25 colomon https://gist.github.com/758929
19:25 colomon any ideas?
19:26 TimToady another example of lazy list self-reference that doesn't work is http://wall.org/~larry/hamming
19:27 TimToady it seems that iterators cannot deal with an array that gets extended while iterating
19:29 pmurias sorear: and what does Op::ImmedForLoop do, as the name is a bit cryptic?
19:30 sorear pmurias: a for-loop that needs to be executed immediately
19:30 sorear at statement lefel
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19:33 Tene TimToady: Can you confirm that that implication is inaccurate, and should be fixed?
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19:33 TimToady what do you mean by "fixed"?
19:33 TimToady all langage changes are lexically scoped
19:33 TimToady language changes too
19:34 Tene TimToady: Wait, so how does augment slang work as lexically-scoped, but augment class is a global modification?
19:34 sorear pmurias: I started on some nam documentation earlier; I'll prioritize getting that up to date
19:35 TimToady Tene: augment is just a declarator; it's up to the thing it's declaring to decide what it means, and slangs are always lexical
19:35 Tene :/ okay.
19:35 TimToady was just re-using the word to avoid inventing two more declarators
19:35 TimToady how could a language redefinition work any other way than lexically?
19:36 TimToady at best you can export to an outer lexical scope that is being compiled currently, but that is also lexical
19:40 TimToady macros are essentially the same thing
19:43 takadonet http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/et7​ew/rosetta_code_has_352_languages_and_counting/
19:48 TimToady Tene: the other way to look at it is that augment does exactly what you expect, but slangs are dynamically scoped variables in the compiler, which comes out to lexically scoped in your program
19:51 Tene TimToady: Hmm, okay, I guess that's reasonable.  Just seems awkward to have a single declarator have wildly different scoping rules, but perhaps I'm biased by being grumpy about the lack of lexically-scoped class modification.
19:51 TimToady it's a good thing that you cannot change someone else's language out from under them without their cooperation
19:51 TimToady as I said in that discussion, what's really lexically scope there is a different dispatcher
19:52 TimToady *scoped
19:52 Tene Sure.
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19:58 sorear TimToady: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2010-12-29#i_3128582 ?
20:00 TimToady still backlogging
20:00 colomon wait (and maybe this was touched on back there in stuff I didn't realize I should be looking at) -- is gather supposed to return right where it is if used in a "lazy" context?
20:01 TimToady there is no implicit return to gather
20:01 TimToady it's often used as the last statement though
20:01 TimToady if that's what you're asking
20:02 sorear currently niecza treats gather { ... } as gather { ...; take EMPTY } and panics if the block ever returns
20:03 colomon no.
20:03 colomon I was looking at my @fib := 1, 1, (@fib Z+ @fib[1..*]); again.
20:04 colomon It seems to me that only works if you start assigning to @fib (if that's the right way of saying it) before you get to the Z+ operator.
20:04 colomon I mean, it's my @fib := 1, 1, zipwith(&[+], @fib,@fib[1..*]));
20:05 colomon If you try to evaluate the zipwith before doing :=, the whole thing falls apart.
20:05 TimToady yes, the := has to happen first somehow
20:06 TimToady haskell does this by requiring strict laziness, iiuc
20:06 colomon the reason I asked about gather is that zipwith uses it internally:
20:07 colomon gather while ?$lhs-list && ?$rhs-list
20:07 TimToady sure, but the problem is more likely at binding time
20:07 TimToady my hamming example seems to indicate that
20:07 TimToady there's no gather there at all, just recursion
20:08 TimToady it seems to bind to a copy of the array, not the array itself, or to an iterator that commits too soon to the length of the array
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20:11 dalek niecza: 8ac15dc | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
20:11 dalek niecza: Add a couple comments for pmurias++
20:11 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/8ac15dc622
20:11 TimToady sorear: I believe pmichaud's immutable iterator model discards the notion of an EMPTY sentinal
20:12 pmurias sorear: you can merge in the if commit
20:12 colomon maybe I'm missing something (had a lot of vicodin today), but it looks to me like the problem could also be the same thing I'm thinking of with the Fib. example -- Rakudo actually tries to evaluate the right-hand side before binding it.
20:12 colomon it's not strictly lazy, as you say.
20:12 TimToady we need some way of dialing in the correct amount of laziness, I think
20:13 sorear TimToady: yes.  EMPTY is now used in niecza only for marking the end of gathers
20:13 sorear my coroutines don't return; they can only yield values
20:13 TimToady sorear: well, that seems like a fossil
20:13 sorear Rakudo coroutines can return
20:13 sorear s/Rakudo/Parrot/
20:14 TimToady called to nom &
20:15 colomon lolibloggedagain: http://justrakudoit.wordpress.com/2010/​12/29/perl-6-fibonacci-versus-haskell/
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20:16 jasonmay colomon: haha, I dig the subtitle for the blog
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20:17 sorear colomon: "I'm not sure why he thought I was the expert on this"
20:17 sorear colomon: 2 words
20:17 sorear colomon: Numerics grant
20:17 colomon jasonmay: I believe TimToady coined that.
20:18 takadonet http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/commen​ts/et94u/perl_6_fibonacci_versus_haskell/
20:18 colomon sorear: yes, but that was basic math stuff, not obscure uses of the sequence operator.
20:18 colomon Admittedly, I did a bunch of the sequence operator implementation as well.  :)
20:19 colomon takadonet: did you at least read it first?  remember, I'm juiced up on vicodin atm, I may be completely incoherent.
20:19 colomon ;)
20:19 takadonet takadonet: i did :)
20:19 colomon oh, good.
20:19 sjohnson colomon: hi
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20:19 colomon sjohnson: o/
20:19 takadonet colomon: your post is just a very long reddit reply :)
20:19 pothos_ joined #perl6
20:19 colomon takadonet: indeed it is.
20:20 takadonet and you don't even have a reddit account :P
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20:25 colomon takadonet++
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20:27 takadonet karma takadonet
20:27 aloha takadonet has karma of 24.
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20:27 colomon takadonet++
20:28 colomon # just because it was too low before
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20:28 takadonet hehe
20:29 colomon moritz_: you'd better watch it, I've got three of masak's problems working now.  :)
20:30 colomon p5 looks really hard.
20:31 __rnddim__ is now known as lue
20:31 lue ohai o/
20:32 colomon \o
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20:34 moritz_ colomon: I've got 4 submitted, and p4 good enough to pass base-test
20:35 colomon p4 is the last one you haven't submitted?
20:35 moritz_ correct
20:35 moritz_ p5 is a solved problem, there are good algorithms for it
20:35 colomon but not simple algorithms.
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20:49 pmurias sorear: is it possible to see the NAM in a pretty printed for or would i have to add that myself?
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21:08 tadzik hello girrafes
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21:12 lue hello, fellow giraffe o/
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21:20 colomon [||] sliding-window-wrapped(@.stones, 2).flat.map(* && *);
21:21 tadzik "oh wow, this Perl thing is so unreadable!" :)
21:23 colomon yeah, that may be a little excessive.  but it's too tasty to resist.
21:23 Tene colomon: [||]?  why not &any?
21:23 colomon Tene: because I'm junctophobic?
21:24 moritz_ rakudo: *.&say.(5)
21:24 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Whatever()<0x6e8de28>␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Boolean'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/kxTX52BKEo␤»
21:25 moritz_ rakudo: *.say.(5)
21:25 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«5␤»
21:25 Patterner left #perl6
21:25 * moritz_ submits rakudobug
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21:29 moritz_ rakudo: (*.&say).(5)
21:29 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Whatever()<0x6d86818>␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Boolean'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/LtzDgrVirW␤»
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21:44 pmurias sorear: i'm writing a pretty printer for nam
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21:58 pmurias sorear: shouldn't ann have the file position instead of the line number?
21:59 pmurias ah there is #XXX marker for that
22:08 tadzik http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/​et94u/perl_6_fibonacci_versus_haskell/c1ardzu
22:08 tadzik *SCNR*
22:08 flussence heh :)
22:16 masak joined #perl6
22:17 lue hai masak o/
22:17 masak tadzik: we hug trolls on #perl6 -- please do not attempt to cleave them in twain with dripping sarcasm elsewhere: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/​et94u/perl_6_fibonacci_versus_haskell/c1arfbk :)
22:18 masak there will always be noise on reddit. let's not contribute to it unnecessarily.
22:18 lue (I personally hesitate referring to Perl 6 as Perl, but that's just me.)
22:19 lue I would think looking the same before & after encryption would be quite an acheivment. I read that as a compliment :)
22:19 masak lue: I usually refer to Perl 6 as a Perl, but I no longer think of Perl as just a single language. it's more... fork-shaped.
22:21 colomon masak: let me encourage you to respond to this one: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/​et94u/perl_6_fibonacci_versus_haskell/c1arc7u
22:21 * masak looks
22:21 * colomon is still not registers on reddit
22:21 lue Agreed. I just say "Perl 6" to avoid ambiguity/hatemail/etc. :)
22:21 colomon masak: I think he means *+* instead of +
22:22 colomon so it's a fine question to explain how simple ideas make powerful combinations in Perl 6
22:22 masak *+* was problematic on HN too. I had to write it out as "star-plus-star"
22:23 masak but since reddit uses Markdown, writing `*+*` should help.
22:23 masak Markdown++
22:25 * masak writes a reply
22:25 colomon masak++
22:27 lue rakudo: my $begin = DateTime.new("1963-11-23T17:15:00Z"); my $fiftyyears = DateTime.new("2013-11-23T17:15:00Z"); say $fiftyyears - $begin
22:27 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Can't take numeric value for object of type DateTime␤  in 'Any::Numeric' at line 1420:CORE.setting␤  in 'infix:<->' at line 7369:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/cP0YBqpiFG␤»
22:27 lue methinks that's a bug.
22:27 wamba left #perl6
22:29 masak http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/​et94u/perl_6_fibonacci_versus_haskell/c1arivp
22:31 masak lue: I don't see anything about DateTime arithmetics in S32.
22:31 masak lue: something in me agrees that that should work, though.
22:34 lue I can see why $fiftyyears - 34 shouldn't work (34 what?), but two DateTime objects should.
22:35 masak *nod*
22:35 masak that's my take on it as well right now.
22:35 masak at least two DateTime objects with proper time zones.
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22:37 pmurias masak: i wander what happened to the velociraptor/accelraptor perls proposal?
22:37 masak pmurias: you should ask mst, its main champion.
22:38 pmurias was it public or did i spill the secret? ;)
22:38 lue I'm also curious on situations where you want to get the time 1 hour from now, maybe something like    + hours(1)    ? Anyway, shall I type up arithmetic for DateTime? Subtraction for sure, at least for now.
22:40 masak lue: I don't know what a DateTime Duration analogoue would be called, but... constructing such a beast with some nice constructor syntax (Dur.new(:hours(1))) and then adding it, would be one way to do it.
22:40 masak lue: also, I'm not sure that necessarily belongs in core.
22:41 masak certainly anyone who specs it would have to provide a working implementation, too. :)
22:42 moritz_ especially for the interesting case of Duration.new(:month(1.5))
22:42 lue yeah :) well, first things first, I think I should spec (and then implement in Rakudo) subtraction arithmetic for two DateTime objects.
22:42 * moritz_ -> sleep
22:42 lue night moritz_ o/
22:43 masak colomon: I think this is for you to answer: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/​et94u/perl_6_fibonacci_versus_haskell/c1arjk1
22:44 masak moritz_: that's why it needs to be a DateTimeDuration and not a Duration. basically a lot of obvious laws of addition and subtraction would be broken.
22:45 Trashlord left #perl6
22:46 lue [and all I wanted to do was to take two DateTime objects and subtract them to see how slow my Pod parser currently is :)]
22:46 masak I've done timings like that.
22:46 Trashlord joined #perl6
22:46 masak I think I used &now, though.
22:46 masak rakudo: my $t1 = now; sleep 3; my $t2 = now; say $t2 - $t1
22:46 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«3.20383275261324␤»
22:47 masak wow, that's pretty inaccurate.
22:47 flussence that's not pi at all!
22:47 masak :)
22:47 Patterner left #perl6
22:48 lue I happened to take two times from &time and put them in DateTime objects to get a duration faster.
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22:49 sorear good * #perl6
22:49 masak lue: Duration is atomic time, so by that reasoning you should have used &now.
22:49 masak sorear! \o/
22:49 sorear pmurias: I support this
22:49 lue (7m53s for a 22 line document O.o)
22:49 lue hello sorear o/
22:50 lue an ill-formated document, but still (e.g. used =end when I should've typed =end head1)
22:51 masak lue: if you're using 'regex' rather than 'token' or 'rule', your grammar may waste a lot of time doing useless backtracking.
22:52 lue ah. Now that I fixed my test file, it parsed in an instant, but didn't parse the whole thing :)
22:52 flussence the bit on the right of a ... is tested using ~~, right?
22:53 flussence wait, that sounds wrong.
22:53 flussence boolean?
22:53 * flussence confuses self
22:53 masak flussence: ~~
22:53 flussence ok
22:54 masak flussence: it wasn't always that way -- before, there was an exception which allowed you to write "100" rather than "* >= 100".
22:54 Patterner left #perl6
22:55 lue So I'll just s:g/regex/token/. When it breaks, I'll undo that until it stops breaking :P
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22:56 masak lue: well, I'd recommend a bit more comprehension than that... :)
22:56 masak ...but just mechanically substituting might be a good first thing to try.
22:57 diakopter phenny: ask sorear (and moritz_) would you mind if I upgraded mono on host04 to 2.8 (for latest perlesque/sprixel)?  alternatively, I could build/install one just for perlesque/sprixel.
22:57 phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
22:57 diakopter hey reddit, I'm a doofus
22:58 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl​6/index.cgi?perl_6_operator_tablet
22:58 dalek niecza: a702187 | sorear++ | lib/ (2 files):
22:58 dalek niecza: Allow exceptions to pass to coroutine dynamic callers (#17)
22:58 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/a702187186
22:58 pmurias diakopter: niecza works on 2.8.1
22:59 masak I'm not sure we've ever been as present in social media as we have been today. Reddit, HN, Twitter...
22:59 sorear I seem to have accidentally depended on some aspect of gmcs 2.8+'s generic type inference
22:59 phenny sorear: 22:57Z <diakopter> ask sorear (and moritz_) would you mind if I upgraded mono on host04 to 2.8 (for latest perlesque/sprixel)?  alternatively, I could build/install one just for perlesque/sprixel.
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23:00 diakopter pmurias: okay... but what's installed on host04 is 2.6.something
23:01 diakopter pmurias: so my question to sorear/moritz was "can I upgrade mono on my own server?" :P
23:01 diakopter fsdo server
23:02 diakopter to be precise, fsuo (for some *use* of) "server"
23:03 diakopter I mean, maybe there's a mono 2.8 installed someplace I don't know about
23:03 sorear pmurias: you don't seem to have actually committed anything for if $expr -> $true { }
23:03 diakopter but the system one is 2.6
23:03 * flussence attempts to answer that last reddit comment
23:04 pmurias sorear: i noticed that right now, pushed
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23:08 flussence masak: what did you just tell me and tadzik? :)
23:09 masak man, that was quick.
23:09 masak to be fair, he deserves it. :/
23:09 masak (we're discussing this: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/​et94u/perl_6_fibonacci_versus_haskell/c1armxe )
23:09 flussence I know :)
23:09 masak note, though, that I'm not attacking *him*.
23:10 masak kinda.
23:10 lue masak: It's only because I haven't bothered to go "does this need backtracking?" for every regex in my grammar yet :) .
23:10 masak lue: the general rule of thumb is that backtracking should be off by default and only switched on when you've determined you need it.
23:11 masak lue: in that sense, 'token' is a nice declarator to start with.
23:12 patrickas joined #perl6
23:12 patrickas phenny?
23:12 phenny patrickas: 03 Dec 14:23Z <smash> tell patrickas yes sir, running the scripts right now
23:13 patrickas Thanks honey!
23:13 patrickas AHOI!
23:13 masak hi patrickas! \o
23:14 patrickas masak \o/
23:14 masak patrickas: it's that time of month again... :)
23:14 lue Is there a way of creating a 'fallback' prototoken, similar to default in given/when statements? I have the feeling I may end up using it for ambient material...
23:14 masak patrickas: and I keep thinking of the FUTURE...
23:15 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
23:15 patrickas hehehe the PAST shall be left behind!
23:16 rindolf joined #perl6
23:16 rindolf Hi all.
23:16 sorear pmurias: 'if (@{$true_block->body->signature->params}) {' doesn't do what you think
23:16 rindolf Happy new year.
23:16 lichtkind joined #perl6
23:16 sorear Hello rindolf
23:16 rindolf Will there be a Rakudo Star release this month?
23:16 sorear pmurias: bare blocks have an implicit $_ parameter (possibly a STD buglet)
23:17 masak rakudo: { say $_ }(42)
23:17 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«42␤»
23:17 lichtkind rakudo: say 'a' x 3
23:17 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«aaa␤»
23:17 masak sorear: bare blocks *do* have an implicit $_? parameter.
23:18 patrickas Btw after commenting on reddit more than ever, I kind of think it is a shame that moritz++'s example that included the sequence oprator using the up to but excluding variant with Code as terminating condition ended up being the first encounter of many perople with the sequence op and perl 6, ETOOMANYNEWFEATURES
23:18 masak indeed.
23:18 sorear say 2 + 2; # *good* first example of Perl 6.
23:19 masak I almost tweeted today: "Things I learned in 2010: if you want people to have an allergic reaction to Perl 6, show them the sequence operator."
23:19 lichtkind sorear: thats how i started the ops section of my perl 6 tut :)
23:20 pmurias masak: it does but if notices that the parameter is implicit
23:20 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
23:21 masak pmurias: oh, true.
23:21 masak rindolf: happy new year. yes, there will be a Rakudo Star release this month.
23:21 masak pmichaud said so.
23:22 slavik1 ooh, that's a good one :D
23:22 pmurias should i remove useless uses of eval from the spec tests?
23:23 masak that's a question for moritz_++ to answer.
23:23 slavik1 is that a good resource to use? the perlfoundation link about? it is awesome!
23:23 patrickas masak: Mabye introducing the sequence op where it is the only new concept can be much more digestable like: 0,1, sub ($a,$b) {$a+$b} ... Inf then moving onto more complex cases
23:23 masak pmurias: I'd lean towards "yes", though.
23:23 pmurias ask we have fudging now
23:24 patrickas sorear: OK, point well taken :-)
23:24 masak patrickas: even `1, 2, 4 ... Inf` is quite a bit nicer.
23:24 rindolf masak: OK, thanks.
23:24 patrickas masak: oh sure ... I meant the fibonacci example specifically
23:24 masak oh, right.
23:25 colomon I'd argue that talking about ... Inf is a mistake.
23:25 masak well, empirical evidence suggests that the fibonacci example works on mathematicians, but not on Python, C++, and Ruby people.
23:26 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl​6/index.cgi?perl_6_operator_tablet
23:26 colomon It made sense when the sequence operator took a Numeric value and did an implicit less than with it.
23:26 arnsholt I'd argue for using '... *' instead of '... Inf'
23:26 pmurias sorear: would optional arguments be hard?
23:26 arnsholt But of course that'd require introducing * first =)
23:26 colomon but by the current sequence def, ... Inf is in prinicple no different than saying ... "blue"
23:27 masak colomon: oh, is that your argument? then I don't buy it.
23:27 colomon (assuming your sequence is of numbers, anyway.)
23:27 masak colomon: 'Inf' is a perfect piece of documentation for any human reading that line of code.
23:27 masak colomon: "blue" isn't.
23:27 kaare_ left #perl6
23:27 patrickas colomon: I get why ...Inf is not as good as ... Closure but why is it inferior to ... * ? the latter is not generating a closire ? so it is not helping in your case!
23:28 timbunce left #perl6
23:28 colomon Yes, but Inf implies it has some meaning to the sequence operator, and it doesn't.  It's just something that will never match.  (Unless it does, of course.)
23:28 diakopter sorear: mono 2.8?
23:29 colomon rakudo: say 1, 2, Inf, 3, 4 ... Inf
23:29 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«12Inf␤»
23:29 colomon rakudo: say 1, 2, Inf, 3, 4 ... *
23:29 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«12Inf34»
23:29 colomon rakudo: say 1, 2, *, 3, 4 ... *
23:29 patrickas colomon: same with ...*
23:29 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«12Whatever()<0x5a78d88>34»
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23:30 colomon no, ... * explicitly means "there is no terminal condition"
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23:30 masak colomon: I don't program to please the sequence operator. I program to make my code readable. `1, 2, 4 ... Inf` is readable.
23:31 masak colomon: and don't come telling me it *doesn't* stop at infinity. :P
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23:32 sorear pmurias: optional arguments are already available?
23:33 patrickas colomon: I just think the "less guessing required with ... Inf" for people reading their first perl6 code ever is a win even if they happen to be accidentally parse it correctly for the wrong reasons.
23:35 masak colomon: I'm not catering to the newcomer in writing "Inf". I'm using a value which I think represents the endpoint of my sequence more accurately than "*". your objection stems from being too intimate with the actual implementation of the sequence operator.
23:35 patrickas not that I am advicating it is better used in actual code, just as a first contact in tutorials with the ... op
23:35 timbunce joined #perl6
23:35 colomon masak: I'm telling you that 1, 2, 4 ... Inf looks great, and is probably slightly more comprehensible to someone who knows nothing about Perl 6 -- but it gives a false impression of why it works, and that's apt to cause trouble further down the line.
23:35 masak I agree with what you say up until the double dashes.
23:36 pmurias sorear: nice
23:36 masak as long as the meaning is received rightly, I don't care what impressions it gives as to the inner workings of infix:<...>. it's up to each and every programmer to educate themselves in how their language works.
23:37 arnsholt The educator also has a certain degree of responsibility to make sure the student understands as much as possible
23:38 masak put differently, I'm not willing to dumb my code down just because it might help other people learn Perl 6 better. I want to explore using Perl 6 as an unhampered tool for expressing algorithms nicely.
23:39 timbunce left #perl6
23:40 dalek niecza: 346f7a3 | pmurias++ | docs/nam.pod:
23:40 dalek niecza: [nam] document ann
23:40 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/346f7a35cb
23:40 dalek niecza: 2b5ec16 | pmurias++ | / (2 files):
23:40 dalek niecza: Missing part of d9e873f971397e132986c4cde663de461fde5dad
23:40 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/2b5ec16ee6
23:40 dalek niecza: 3ded8fd | sorear++ | / (7 files):
23:40 dalek niecza: Merge remote branch 'pmurias/master'
23:40 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/3ded8fd3f4
23:40 dalek niecza: 229e491 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
23:40 dalek niecza: Fix whitespace
23:40 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/229e4917cc
23:40 pmurias masak: if something is meant as an evangelizing blog post using every little Perl 6 trick might not the best thing
23:41 silug left #perl6
23:41 masak pmurias: of course not.
23:42 masak but we're talking about `1, 2, 4, ... Inf` here, and the fact that `Inf` *really* means "a value that won't ever match" seems less important to me than the fact that it conveys "and it goes arbitrarily high" to the unacquainted user.
23:43 sorear yes, much more readable than 1, 2, 4, ..., -1/12
23:43 masak and even slightly more readable than `1, 2, 4 ... *`, in my opinion.
23:43 patrickas or 1,2,4 ... 9 for that matter :-)
23:43 masak because the star there is a Perl 6 idiom.
23:44 Tene rakudo: say (1,2,4 ... 9)[1..10]
23:44 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«2481632641282565121024␤»
23:44 Tene rakudo: say (1,2,4 ... -42)[1..10]
23:44 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«2481632641282565121024␤»
23:44 masak the point that "blue", or "-1/12", or "9" all would work similarly well, is well taken.
23:44 masak I still prefer "Inf" in this case.
23:44 masak YMMV.
23:44 Tene rakudo: say Inf > 10
23:44 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
23:44 Tene rakudo: say -Inf > 10
23:44 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
23:45 patrickas I suppose if the user is already familiar with "Whatever" colomon's point has more weight, I am just getting the feeling it is a shame that people are meeting it for the first time around the sequence operator.
23:45 timbunce joined #perl6
23:45 patrickas masak: I mention 9 because I am still of two minds about it
23:46 masak Tene: having "Inf" and "-Inf" in the language as numeric values is a real asset, too. some algorithms expressed in language that don't have those contain lines of contortions to compensate for that lack.
23:46 masak in Perl 6, those algorithms sometimes get embarassingly simple.
23:47 masak ooh, I can definitely see a use for KeyHash[Num, Inf] now.
23:47 lue if it were a long time ago, I'd point out that * is two less characters to type, and saves space. :)
23:47 colomon o?
23:47 masak so maybe it is a good idea to keep the $default parameter there.
23:48 plobsing left #perl6
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23:48 masak but I still think it should default to ::T.^default
23:48 masak colomon: there are some graph algorithms where hashes essentially start with all values at Inf...
23:48 lue nom time, bye! o/
23:49 plobsing joined #perl6
23:49 colomon masak: ooo, cool.
23:49 * colomon is trying to figure out how to elegantly work with rings of stones.
23:50 timbunce left #perl6
23:50 patrickas Anyways, good night, belated merry xmas and early happy new year to all ! :-)
23:50 colomon merry new year!
23:51 masak heh. it seems that p4 will be the big test for people. :)
23:51 colomon really?  I think p5 is worse.
23:51 Tene masak: To me, it feels like a language wart that unterminated sequences don't use that parameter.
23:51 patrickas left #perl6
23:51 masak colomon: I'm not ready to say too much before the contest ends, but I essentially screwed up and made p3 easier than I had planned.
23:52 colomon p3 did seem very easy.
23:52 Tene If you're not expecting it to terminate, then it shouldn't be checking against anything at all, not just "something that I as the programmer know will never match"
23:52 masak Tene: I know what you mean.
23:52 masak Tene: with Inf, it should be easy enough to put in an optimization...
23:53 Tene masak: Intuitively, I'd suspect something like "In the case that the compiler can determine that it will never match, an implementation is allowed to generate items without checking for termination conditions" or something...
23:53 masak something like that.
23:53 Tene Feels kind of like it's not factored out quite right, though, but that may just be a consequence of fitting such a variety of behaviour in ...
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23:53 colomon but note that it can't do that in the general case, because Inf is a value that might actually be reached.
23:54 masak nod.
23:54 Tene What operations generate Inf instead of NaN?
23:54 colomon rakudo: say 1/0
23:54 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Inf␤»
23:54 Patterner left #perl6
23:54 Tene I thought that was supposed to generate NaN?
23:54 pmurias what is else -> $c {...} supposed to do?
23:54 Tene Perhaps I misremembered.
23:54 Tene pmurias: context?
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23:55 dalek roast: 4ad13e0 | pmurias++ | S04-statements/if.t:
23:55 dalek roast: remove test case duplicated in S04-statement-modifiers/if.t
23:55 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/4ad13e0c73
23:55 dalek roast: f256af3 | pmurias++ | S04-statements/if.t:
23:55 dalek roast: add fudge markers for niecza
23:55 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/f256af3ada
23:55 pmurias if 1 {} else -> $c { what is $c supposed to contain }?
23:56 masak Tene: my maths sense also tells me that should give NaN. but IEEE-something disagrees, IIRC.
23:56 colomon and remember the sequence operator is general -- it can be a sequence of anything, generated by any arbitrary function.
23:56 Tene pmurias: If anything, I'd expect it to contain the value of the last condition to not match.
23:57 pmurias it does that
23:57 pmurias sorear: what's a bit funny is that the test for notbinding $_ didn't notice the bug
23:58 GinoMan_ left #perl6
23:59 timbunce joined #perl6

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