Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-01-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:04 diakopter sorear: cool :)  (unspace)
00:05 bacek left #perl6
00:06 sorear just checking if it works before I use it...
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00:10 lopaway is now known as lopnor
00:10 dalek sprixel: 9e487ae | diakopter++ | sprixel/ (7 files):
00:10 dalek sprixel: new class/attributes/methods pass prepended/working.
00:10 dalek sprixel: recursive/cross-referential (so-called "post-declared") working.
00:10 dalek sprixel: admittedly not kosher Perl 6, but for this extremely tiny strict
00:10 dalek sprixel: subset, it'll make writing/emitting efficient code much simpler.
00:10 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/9e487aec89
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00:24 diakopter cool, strongly typed Hash-es "just work"
00:24 diakopter (translated to Dictionary<string, T>)
00:24 diakopter that'll be good enough for now
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00:29 pumphaus1 is now known as pumphaus
00:33 sorear push to github has stopped working.
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00:36 dalek niecza: c9bdf1a | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
00:36 dalek niecza: [v6] Translate final third of Metamodel
00:36 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c9bdf1a5de
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00:41 colomon t/spec/integration/advent20​09-day18....get_attr_str() not implemented in class 'Sub'
00:41 colomon sorear: github has been dodgy all days.  give it a couple more tries.
00:41 colomon (unless you already have, of course.)
00:42 colomon Are other people getting the integration/advent2009-day18 error?  That's with jnthn's broken patch reversed.
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00:43 colomon gads, "all day".
00:43 colomon I had about five failed pushes or pulls today.
00:43 colomon Repeated efforts eventually worked, but it's still annoying.
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00:50 sorear niecza: sub foo() { say $*quux }; sub bar($*quux) { foo }; bar(15)
00:50 p6eval niecza v1-35-gc9d17a7: OUTPUT«15␤»
00:50 flussence colomon: I've got a clone of roast that fixes the day18 error
00:51 flussence it's just a small typo
00:51 colomon where is it?
00:51 flussence https://github.com/flussence/roast
00:51 colomon can you send me a patch?  ;)
00:52 colomon contrawise, do you mind if I just duplicate the patch and give you credit in the commit?
00:52 flussence yeah, sure
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00:54 dalek roast: 12508e2 | (Solomon Foster)++ | integration/advent2009-day18.t:
00:54 dalek roast: Switch dies_ok to eval_dies_ok, flussence++.
00:54 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/12508e261a
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00:54 colomon Hope that's okay.  :)
00:54 flussence no problem :)
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01:22 snarkyboojum where does one get viv from these days?
01:22 snarkyboojum all links pointing to https://github.com/perl6/m​u/raw/master/src/perl6/viv 404
01:27 snarkyboojum and hello :)
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01:30 snarkyboojum ah - found it at https://github.com/perl6/std :) perl6.org needs updating
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02:02 diakopter my latest push's alert here is .. slow from github
02:02 diakopter maybe I should convert it to sorear's push model
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02:07 dalek sprixel: e4063bc | diakopter++ | sprixel/src/ (3 files):
02:07 dalek sprixel: made eval EXPR work inside methods & subs, enabling recursive
02:07 dalek sprixel: nested string eval as a happy result.
02:07 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/e4063bc6d4
02:09 colomon rakudo: my $a = "This gf     gfg  a g    \t \t    gfgf".subst(/\s+/, " "); say $a
02:09 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«This gf     gfg  a g                  gfgf␤»
02:10 colomon global!
02:10 colomon rakudo: my $a = "This gf     gfg  a g    \t \t    gfgf".subst(/\s+/, " ", :g); say $a
02:10 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«This gf gfg a g gfgf␤»
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02:15 diakopter rakudo: my $a = "This gf  \n\n   gfg  a g    \t \t    gfgf".subst(/\s+/, " "); say $a
02:15 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«This gf  ␤␤   gfg  a g                        gfgf␤»
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02:15 diakopter rakudo: my $a = "This gf  \n\n   gfg  a g    \t \t    gfgf".subst(/\s+/, " ", :g); say $a
02:15 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«This gf gfg a g gfgf␤»
02:15 diakopter rakudo: my $a = "This gf  \n\n   gfg  a g    \t \t    gfgf".subst(/\s+/, "", :g); say $a
02:15 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«Thisgfgfgaggfgf␤»
02:15 diakopter colomon: what about this gf? ;)
02:16 colomon gfgag!
02:18 colomon It's funny how often I forget the :g in subst.  I almost never want to do just a single substitution....
02:18 dalek sprixel: 48ae9c0 | diakopter++ | / (7 files):
02:18 dalek sprixel: implement the "_cc" special form for current continuation,
02:18 dalek sprixel: though it's closer to current coroutine, until cloning can
02:18 dalek sprixel: be ported back over from the old perlesque (maybe it won't).
02:18 dalek sprixel: Also clean up the static/instance method resolution to use
02:18 dalek sprixel: the runsharp library better.
02:18 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/48ae9c038f
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02:21 sorear the old perlesque didn't have proper continuations, only coroutines
02:25 flussence interesting rosettacode thing on /r/perl/ here, I might have a go at it... http://redd.it/evopg
02:25 diakopter sorear: oh
02:26 diakopter sorear: but.. I thought it had nearly all the full cloning necessary?
02:26 diakopter (maybe you didn't know about it)
02:29 sorear diakopter: no, it only cloned one deep
02:30 diakopter hm, oh
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02:37 snarkyboojum ah - just realised that installing STD off CPAN obviates the need to know where viv is installed for the purposes of building Niecza :P
02:37 * snarkyboojum bangs head against the README he didn't read properly
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02:41 flussence small question for anyone: what's the simplest way to go from (1,2,3,4,5,6) to (1=>2, 3=>4, 5=>6)?
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02:42 masonkramer same thing
02:42 masonkramer => is a way of spelling ,
02:42 masonkramer that happens to quote the LHS if it's a single token
02:43 masonkramer if you mean you want a hash with 1 as the first key and 2 as the first value
02:43 masonkramer my %h = (1,2,3,4,5,6)
02:43 masonkramer hashes are created by assigning lists to a variable with a % sigil
02:43 flussence I'm trying to get an array of Pairs
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02:43 masonkramer oh...
02:43 masonkramer damn..wrong channel
02:43 flussence heh
02:43 masonkramer sorry man
02:43 masonkramer :)
02:44 snarkyboojum rakudo: my @list = (1,2,3,4,5,6); say @list.hash.perl
02:44 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«{"1" => 2, "3" => 4, "5" => 6}␤»
02:44 flussence .hash outputs them in order on rakudo, but I don't think I can count on that behaviour
02:46 flussence Oh.
02:46 flussence .map(*=>*)
02:46 masonkramer [=>] <1 2 3 4 5 6>
02:46 colomon oh, bother.  just got a Null PMC working on p5.  :(
02:47 masonkramer perl6: say [=>] <1 2 3 4 5 6>
02:47 p6eval niecza v1-35-gc9d17a7: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Action method prefix_circumfix_meta_operator__S_reduce not yet implemented at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Niecza/Actions.pm line 55.␤Action method prefix_circumfix_meta_operator not yet implemented at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Niecza/Actions.pm
02:47 p6eval ..line 55.␤Che…
02:47 p6eval ..pugs, rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«1   2       3       4       5       6␤»
02:47 flussence masonkramer: close, but that's (1=>(2=>...))))))
02:47 masonkramer well, anyway, it works
02:47 masonkramer is it?
02:47 masonkramer I'll keep quiet now
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02:47 jasonmay rakudo: (1,2,3,4,5,6).map(* => *).perl
02:47 p6eval rakudo de98d1:  ( no output )
02:47 flussence interesting answer though :)
02:48 snarkyboojum that's cool :)
02:48 snarkyboojum rakudo: say (1,2,3,4,5,6).map(*=>*).perl
02:48 jasonmay rakudo: (1,2,3,4,5,6).map(* => *).perl.say
02:48 jasonmay oops
02:48 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«(1 => 2, 3 => 4, 5 => 6)␤»
02:48 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«(1 => 2, 3 => 4, 5 => 6)␤»
02:48 snarkyboojum jinx
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03:00 snarkyboojum flussence: by my reading of the synopses, it looks like .hash should work in order for a simple list like that
03:01 snarkyboojum i.e the "hash contextualizer" section in S29
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03:08 lue hello world o/
03:08 snarkyboojum hi lue o/
03:09 colomon \o
03:10 * colomon had a beautiful long example work well for masak's p5, but a simple test case blows up my code.
03:14 colomon huh.  Actually it seems to be the test which is blowing up.  Weird.
03:15 colomon omg
03:16 colomon rakudo:  my $a; say ">$a<"; say ">$a<";
03:16 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«>Any() Any() Any()Any()<␤»
03:16 colomon rakudo:  my $a = 10; say ">$a<"; say ">$a<";
03:16 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«postcircumfix:<{ }> not defined for type Int()␤  in 'Any::join' at line 1␤  in 'Any::join' at line 1462:CORE.setting␤  in 'List::Str' at line 2748:CORE.setting␤  in 'Parcel::Str' at line 1399:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
03:16 colomon and there it is.
03:16 flussence wtf
03:17 colomon I think it's parsing that as $a<"; say ">
03:17 flussence oh...
03:17 colomon std:  my $a = 10; say ">$a<"; say ">$a<";
03:17 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to parse quote-words subscript; couldn't find right angle quote at /tmp/BalF0CqATO line 1:␤------> [32mmy $a = 10; say ">$a<"; say ">$a<[33m⏏[31m";[0m␤    expecting escape␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 122m␤»
03:18 flussence yeah, now I remember masak's post about $var</a> doing that :)
03:18 lue wow. That's... a surprise.
03:18 colomon but Rakudo's error is LTA, and when the two say statements are twenty lines apart...
03:20 sorear I suggest using qs""
03:20 colomon will that help?
03:20 colomon In practice, I just switch say ">$a<" to say :$a.perl
03:20 colomon the important bit was being able to see trailing whitespace.
03:21 colomon std:  my $a = 10; say qs">$a<"; say qs">$a<";
03:21 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to parse quote-words subscript; couldn't find right angle quote at /tmp/5EWzcLrocN line 1:␤------> [32mmy $a = 10; say qs">$a<"; say qs">$a<[33m⏏[31m";[0m␤    expecting escape␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 122m␤»
03:21 lue std: my $a = 10; say ">{$a}<"; say ">{$a}<";
03:21 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
03:22 lue That's a possible workaround.
03:22 flussence I'm starting to have doubts about the usefulness of allowing interpolating <> directly inside "". The error's logical but it's very non-obvious...
03:23 lue I would vote for printing what's in the string literally if interpolation fails (e.g. say ">$a<" would come out ">10<\n")
03:23 lue rakudo: say "$a"
03:23 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$a' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/bzL3932pwT:22)␤»
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03:26 flussence that's the problem; the line colomon showed *is* a valid interpolation (even if the result is useless to most people)
03:28 lue what, the    $a<"; say ">    bit? I'd like to cry foul on that one, but I see why it happened.
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03:31 flussence someone could be using a weird hash key there, but there's no way for perl6 to know until it gets to that part of the code, and by then it's already decided how to parse it...
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03:34 lue my $a = 10; say "⟩$a⟨"; say "⟩$a⟨";
03:34 colomon it's easy enough to work around, but it's a heck of a surprise when it happens.
03:34 lue rakudo: my $a = 10; say "⟩$a⟨"; say "⟩$a⟨";
03:34 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«⟩10⟨␤⟩10⟨␤»
03:35 lue I'd say just use {} around the $a.
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03:35 colomon right.
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03:37 colomon okay, I have a working algorithm for masak's p5!  Needs massive cleaning, though.
03:38 colomon time for bed.
03:38 sorear bye
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04:19 lopnor hello,
04:19 lopnor is there any performance profiler for rakudo?
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04:33 sorear lopnor: I think there's a profiling runcore
04:41 lopnor sorear: thank you, how do i use it? is there any documents in rakudo-star tarball?
04:42 arlinius|3 dsa
04:43 lopnor hm,  parrot-2.11.0/docs/dev/profiling.pod this seems to be
04:44 lopnor thank you, i will try this
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05:23 sorear niecza: sub foo($s) { constant %x = a => 1, b => 2, c => 3; return %x{$s} }; say foo('b')
05:23 p6eval niecza v1-35-gc9d17a7: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot use hash access on an object of type Parcel␤  at (eval) line 1 (MAIN foo @ 2)␤  at (eval) line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/SAFE.setting line 1064 (SAFE C381_ANON @ 1)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/SAFE.setting line 1064
05:23 p6eval ..(SAFE module…
05:23 sorear thought so.
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05:39 sorear hello mberends
05:40 mberends hi sorear, I've just discovered the MacSurf in Copenhagen Central Station ;)
05:41 mberends masak and I plan to meet here today, he has just relocated to the part of Sweden nearest to here :)
05:49 mberends sorear: how is niecza's eval() coming along? It seems once that has landed, we can begin spectesting niecza in earnest.
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06:07 j-invariant are there any songs about perl6?
06:07 j-invariant or perl
06:09 dalek nqp-rx: 89a7459 | cotto++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
06:09 dalek nqp-rx: add ...
06:09 dalek nqp-rx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/89a7459bf1
06:09 dalek nqp-rx/nom: 98b0b4f | bacek++ | src/ (3 files):
06:09 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Remove usage of deprecated concat_s_s op
06:09 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/98b0b4fb95
06:09 dalek nqp-rx/nom: 2a73b89 | cotto++ | src/stage0/ (2 files):
06:09 dalek nqp-rx/nom: fix deprecated concat_s_s usages
06:09 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/2a73b898a9
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06:10 cottoo ... wasn't intentional
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06:11 dalek nqp-rx: 2f2bc9a | cotto++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
06:11 dalek nqp-rx: Revert "add ..."
06:11 dalek nqp-rx:
06:11 dalek nqp-rx: This reverts commit 89a7459bf15f084f034b4572e3121833f22aa6e3.
06:11 dalek nqp-rx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/2f2bc9a9fe
06:15 cotto in nom, is "type object" another way of saying "class"?
06:16 diakopter bacek__: you'd also need to fix nqp-rx's pir emitter; I suspect it emits usages of that concat form
06:17 diakopter maybe not.
06:17 bacek__ diakopter, let me check it
06:18 cotto that was me trying to cherry-pick nom back into building
06:18 bacek__ but I did update nqp-rx when strip concat_s_s from parrot.
06:18 bacek__ is now known as bacek
06:19 cotto nom doesn't bootstrap atm but it does seem to build
06:19 diakopter bacek: why the removal of that concat form?
06:19 cotto immutable strings
06:19 bacek diakopter, leftover of "mutable string world"
06:20 diakopter oh..
06:20 cotto concat_s_s assumes that you're mutating the first argument
06:20 diakopter I guess if you treat a string like a value type it would matter
06:20 cotto did nom previously work fine after bootstrap-files?
06:21 cotto (for its own special value of "works")
06:29 sorear mberends: I don't know
06:30 sorear mberends: v2 (Jan 31) will almost certainly be self-hosted; I expect eval will require significant rearranging, but I have no idea how significant
06:32 mberends sorear: ok, in that case I'll attempt to achieve some spectest coverage, without creating any high expectations.
06:33 sorear pmurias has been doing some interesting stuff.
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06:52 dalek niecza: 7e32c33 | sorear++ | v6/NAMOutput.pm6:
06:52 dalek niecza: [v6] Translate NAMBackend
06:52 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/7e32c339b8
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07:04 masak good morning!
07:04 * masak stretches, cat-like
07:08 sorear niecza: say +[ map { $_, $_ }, 1, 2 ]
07:08 p6eval niecza v1-35-gc9d17a7: OUTPUT«2␤»
07:08 sorear gah
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07:12 dalek niecza: 25fdee0 | sorear++ | lib/SAFE.setting:
07:12 dalek niecza: Fix &take losing list character of items
07:12 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/25fdee0e0b
07:13 sorear hello masak.
07:16 masak rakudo: say +[ map { $_, $_ }, 1, 2 ]
07:16 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«4␤»
07:16 masak o.O
07:16 masak oh, right.
07:17 diakopter rakudo: say ~[ map { $_, $_ }, 1, 2 ]
07:17 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«1 1 2 2␤»
07:18 diakopter rakudo: say ~[ map { $_ ** $_ }, 1, 2 ]
07:18 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«1 4␤»
07:18 diakopter er
07:18 diakopter rakudo: say ~[ map { $_ zZ $_ }, 1, 2 ]
07:18 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 22␤»
07:18 diakopter hee
07:19 diakopter rakudo: say +[ map { $_ xx $_ }, ^99 ]
07:19 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«4851␤»
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07:25 sorear phenny: tell moritz_ p6eval is 46 commits behind niecza head, did I break the build again? D:
07:25 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
07:28 moritz_ sorear: there were local changes, which prevented automatic pulling. Sorry for that, fixed now
07:28 phenny moritz_: 07:25Z <sorear> tell moritz_ p6eval is 46 commits behind niecza head, did I break the build again? D:
07:28 moritz_ niecza: say '\o/'
07:28 p6eval niecza v1-80-g25fdee0: OUTPUT«\o/␤»
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07:39 diakopter moritz_: who made the local changes..
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07:45 moritz_ diakopter: me, after pmurias asked me to try something when we had a build failure
07:45 moritz_ at least I think that's what happened
07:48 dalek niecza: e941d29 | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
07:48 dalek niecza: [v6] Start a stopgap test harness
07:48 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/e941d29e60
07:48 dalek niecza: f7b008c | sorear++ | v6/ (3 files):
07:48 dalek niecza: [v6] More fixes; harness can do "Hello, world" now
07:48 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/f7b008c563
07:50 sorear very exciting
07:50 masak is it for the spectests?
07:51 sorear masak: No, I have the Perl 6 version of Niecza able to run a Hello World program.  Sort of.
07:51 masak ah :)
07:52 masak nice to see things progress.
07:52 sorear next will be Niecza::Actions, so I will be able to give input in Perl 6
07:52 sorear then the optimization passes
07:52 sorear then the driver... hopefully pmurias will have finished the driver refactor by then
07:53 sorear then a new build systme
07:53 sorear then ... done
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07:56 masak \o/
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08:38 mberends afk & # meeting masak++
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08:59 j-invariant perl6: 3 == *
08:59 p6eval pugs, rakudo de98d1, niecza v1-82-gf7b008c:  ( no output )
08:59 j-invariant perl6: say(3 == *);
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08:59 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«_block124␤»
08:59 p6eval ..niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«Sub()<instance>␤»
08:59 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
09:02 moritz_ rakudo: if ?(Q:PIR { %r = box 3␤}) { say "alive" }
09:02 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«alive␤»
09:02 moritz_ rakudo: if (Q:PIR { %r = box 3␤}).Bool { say "alive" }
09:02 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«alive␤»
09:03 j-invariant rakudo: say(3 == *);
09:03 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«_block124␤»
09:04 moritz_ rakudo: say (3 == *).(5)
09:04 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
09:04 moritz_ rakudo: say (3 == *).(3)
09:04 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
09:05 j-invariant is there something equal to everything?
09:06 moritz_ no
09:06 moritz_ but there's something that smart-matches True against everything
09:06 moritz_ rakudo: say 0 ~~ True
09:06 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Smartmatch against True always matches; if you mean to test the topic for truthiness, use :so or *.so or ?* instead at line 22, near " True"␤»
09:07 moritz_ ... and warns :-)
09:07 moritz_ rakudo: say 0 ~~ Mu
09:07 j-invariant cool!
09:07 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«1␤»
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10:27 colomon masak: Do you have an interface in mind for p5?  Something like take two lines and long for their longest substring?
10:28 moritz_ colomon: see base-test
10:28 moritz_ iirc it's exactly that
10:28 colomon oh.  Is there a base-test in every directory that I've been ignoring?
10:29 moritz_ seems like :-)
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10:29 colomon "Look at that," as my little guy would say.  :)
10:29 colomon moritz_++
10:30 moritz_ cleverl little guy, I'd say :-)
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10:31 colomon you can tell when he is excited by something new, because he'll say it three or four times a minute.  :)
10:33 moritz_ probably because those stupid adults fail to show the proper excitement after the first time
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11:09 muixirt hi colomon
11:10 colomon o/
11:10 muixirt why did you revert jnthn patch?
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11:12 moritz_ it caused spectest failures
11:12 muixirt rakudo is quite buggy as a hole, and tests like t/spec/S14-roles/parameter-subtyping.rakudo where broken before
11:12 moritz_ which jnthn++ couldn't test, because parrot was b0rked at that point
11:13 muixirt moritz_: is the pir :main fixed? Or gets fixed in next days?
11:14 moritz_ muixirt: it's "fixed", which means the message disappears. Instead now the main body of a Perl 6 program is executed twice.
11:14 muixirt didn't see anything in rakudo / Commit History
11:14 moritz_ parrot changed
11:15 moritz_ see yesterday's #parrot logs
11:15 moritz_ search for pmichaud++ appearing
11:15 muixirt too bad to see a performance increase slip away
11:15 muixirt ok moritz_
11:16 colomon I'm sure jnthn will get around to fixing his patch soon, and we'll get it back.
11:16 colomon It just wasn't quite ready for prime time yet.
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11:16 muixirt colomon: good to hear
11:19 muixirt I don't want to harp on it to much but rakudo perl could *really* use some speed enhancements
11:19 muixirt it's heartbreaking slow and it's annoying that parrot get often in the way
11:21 muixirt sorry for stating the obvious
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11:30 Util First cut of Rakudo binary package for Mac OS X:
11:30 Util http://s3.datasaw.com/Rakudo_​Star_2010-12_experiment_1.dmg
11:30 Util Testers wanted!
11:34 Util s/Rakudo binary/Rakudo Star binary/
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11:42 colomon Good grief, my masak code is failing the base tests miserably.
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11:55 colomon okay, p3 fixed.
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11:59 Util p3 was my favorite
12:00 Util p4, not so much
12:01 arnsholt p3 had the advantage of being pretty simple
12:01 colomon I really am kind of disliking the base-test tests.
12:01 colomon particularly in p4.
12:01 arnsholt Yeah. The ones for p3 are pretty normal, but p1 and p4 are weird
12:02 arnsholt Haven't looked much at p2 or p5
12:02 colomon I'm grumpy about having to add a bunch of error checking which has nothing to do with the problem in case of grossly illegal input.
12:03 arnsholt I'm pretty sloppy with my input validation, TBH
12:03 colomon But I can't begin to fathom why base-test insists the computer makes a certain move in situations where every move is exactly equivalent.
12:04 arnsholt Yeah, those tests I really don't like
12:04 arnsholt I think I'll just ignore base-test for p4
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12:12 muixirt moritz_: do all nowspectest pass ?
12:12 muixirt t/spec/S14-roles/parameter-subtyping.rakudo hangs again
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12:13 colomon muixirt: context?  It works fine for me with latest Rakudo and its default Parrot.
12:14 muixirt Rakudo Perl 6, version 2010.12-16-gde98d15 built on parrot 2.11.0 RELEASE_2_11_0-659-gf1c0156
12:15 colomon Platform?
12:15 muixirt linux amd64
12:16 muixirt lots of other test fails
12:16 muixirt hence the question if the spectest is supposed to pass with latest parrot/rakudo or if I oberlooked something again
12:17 colomon yeah, that test runs fine with those versions on OS X.
12:17 colomon I'm building on 64-bit linux now.
12:18 muixirt lots of 'More than one plan found in TAP output'
12:19 muixirt neat: # Looks like you planned 21 tests, but ran 42
12:20 muixirt well moritz_ said: Instead now the main body of a Perl 6 program is executed twice.
12:20 muixirt He meant it! :-)
12:21 muixirt <zum mäuse melken>
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12:24 colomon oh, I'm not using that version.  hmmm?
12:24 colomon This is Rakudo Perl 6, version 2010.12-16-gde98d15 built on parrot 2.11.0 RELEASE_2_11_0-478-gd69dbbc
12:24 colomon Guess that's not the latest Parrot?
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12:27 muixirt where do these gde98d15 gibberish come from again?
12:28 gfldex a missing git pull maybe?
12:28 colomon It's g plus the first 7 characters of the hash tag for the git commit.
12:28 gfldex kill parrot_install while you are on it
12:29 colomon gd69dbbc is what current Rakudo calls for.
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12:30 muixirt according to https://github.com/parrot/parrot f1c015663e153d35a528 is the latest commit
12:31 gfldex check build/PARROT_REVISION
12:31 gfldex in rakudo
12:31 colomon right, Rakudo's not on the latest Parrot yet.
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12:32 muixirt ok, I don't do --gen-parrot, sorry for the confusion
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12:35 colomon muixirt: right, it appears the correct answer is that Rakudo does not yet work with the latest Parrot.
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12:35 muixirt colomon: so rakudo works and spectests passes with d69dbbc?
12:35 colomon yes
12:36 muixirt ok, thanks colomon
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12:40 colomon rakudo: my @a = "4,5'.eval; say @a.perl
12:40 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "my @a = \"4"␤»
12:40 colomon rakudo: my @a = "4,5".eval; say @a.perl
12:40 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«[4, 5]␤»
12:41 moritz_ http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1932 is my bug report for rakudo on current parrot
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12:48 muixirt "...  and can't be easily reverted. " Erm, what?
12:49 colomon hmmm?
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12:50 muixirt colomon: see the comment of bacek to moritz_ 's ticket
12:50 colomon ah.
12:56 muixirt we should request from the parrot devs that it executes main twice in to seperate threads :-)
12:57 moritz_ threads are deprecated :/
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12:58 moritz_ but I don't understand... there's a merge commit, that means it can't have been --no-ff
12:58 moritz_ but maybe we're talking about different branches
12:59 muixirt or we could sell rakudo to the pentagon: SAFE programming through redundant computation
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13:04 takadonet morning all
13:04 tadzik morning takadonet
13:04 colomon o/
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13:15 wagnerf hi all, is there a way to profile some code with rakudo ?
13:15 moritz_ yes, add 'say time' statements to it and parse / analyze the output
13:15 colomon wagnerf: There is a Parrot profiler, last I heard it was working with Rakudo.  But it's tricky to use.
13:15 moritz_ no automized way though
13:17 wagnerf ok
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13:18 muixirt i like perl6 --stagestats
13:18 moritz_ but it doesn't give profiling information
13:19 muixirt if you wonder how long it takes to parse your program
13:21 * colomon now has all but one base-test passing from p1-p4, and he'd argue the failing test is wrong.
13:21 muixirt moritz_: but i would argue that a profiler for rakudo isn't very helpful for rakudo perl *users*
13:21 moritz_ colomon: which one do you think is wrong?
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13:23 wagnerf well, maybe it's a good opportunity to try playing with the meta object protocol :)
13:23 colomon moritz_: Test 5 on p4.  All first moves are exactly equivalent, but it assumes the computer will always choose 0, 1
13:24 moritz_ colomon: I've argued with masak over that one too. He meant I was free to ignore that test
13:24 moritz_ colomon: and then I started to implement the solution, and found that it was easier for me if I special-cased the first move anyway :-)
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13:25 moritz_ because after the first move, I can ignore the periodic boundary conditions, which suited me well
13:25 colomon moritz_: huh.  I didn't special case the first move.
13:26 colomon And what if the human player doesn't do something to break the periodic boundary?
13:26 moritz_ then I do a small coordinate transformation
13:26 moritz_ aka .rotate()
13:27 * [Coke] yawns.
13:30 arnsholt The first move in p4 is irrelevant anyways =)
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13:35 V15170R hi :)
13:36 V15170R i'm a newbie programmer, and i was reading about MONADS.... and learned about roles on perl6.
13:36 takadonet V15170R: welcome
13:37 V15170R i don't understand monads completely, yet, but it seems that they are "similar" in the way they both "compose" behavoir....
13:37 V15170R are roles inspired in some way in "monads" ?
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13:44 shortcircuit One thing I really, really like about the Perl 6 community over the Perl community; it's not a sniping gallery in here.
13:44 tadzik what do you mean?
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13:46 smash hello everyone
13:47 shortcircuit My last couple experiences in #perl have been, in reverse order, responding to someone's suggestion that a code example be fixed, and (a year or so ago) being treated like a n00b (in a negative way) as I was trying to get the JSON module working on a broken operating system.
13:48 shortcircuit The more recent event had a guy who wanted to see the code fixed, a guy who didn't care, except to see the site go away, and a guy who provided a nopaste with corrected code.
13:48 shortcircuit I've not seen non-constructive aggressiveness around here, and I've been treated subjectively well when I haven't known what I'm doing.
13:49 shortcircuit I like that about this place. :)
13:50 muixirt I second that, but of course #perl6 is very small community
13:50 daxim I can troll you hard to restore the universal balance and natural order in the perliverse
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13:53 daxim that reminds me, why is that reddit novelty account that used to come up during the last year not active anymore? :(  was fun
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14:31 colomon Okay, I've got all the base-tests passing on all problems, except for that one on p4.
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14:58 takadonet pyrimidine: hey
14:58 pyrimidine o/
14:58 takadonet long time no see
14:59 pyrimidine took a well-needed break
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15:00 khisanth__ is now known as Khisanth
15:01 takadonet good to hear
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15:42 colomon o/
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17:27 kent\n I'm looking for "resumable exceptions", but the synopsis code is a bit daunting. Essentially, I have a place where it may be useful to report a warning, but it may also be a good place to throw an exception, and I don't want to care which it is, and just throw an exception, and let the calling context decide "nah, thats alright, keep going" and return to statement line after the exception was thrown.
17:27 flussence try "fail()"
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17:28 kent\n pseudocode: try { x ; fail(); y } catch { $_->resume() }   #   x, fail(), resume(), y
17:29 flussence rakudo: sub a { fail('foo') }; try { my $v = a(); CATCH { say 'fail' } }; my $w = a(); say 'alive'; say $v;
17:29 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$v' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/gvnnsF3Rjs:22)␤»
17:29 flussence rakudo: sub a { fail('foo') }; try { my $v = a(); CATCH { say 'fail' } }; my $w = a(); say 'alive'; say $w;
17:29 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«alive␤»
17:30 pmurias kent\n: warnings are implemented as "resumable exceptions"
17:30 flussence hm, someone else probably knows it better than I do
17:31 kent\n code sample is doing my head in -_-
17:31 * kent\n hasn't mastered p6 yet, its just something I concluded/realised p5 will probably never handle and want to see how/if p6 does it in a way I can understand
17:34 PerlPilot is now known as PerlJam
17:34 PerlJam no one has mastered Perl 6 yet.
17:35 kent\n I shall rephrase: I haven't really yet written anything in p6 yet =p
17:35 pmurias kent\n: something like $!.resume() will resume the exception
17:36 kent\n awesome.
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17:37 * kent\n toys with the idea of writing his module in p6 for the lulz
17:37 TimToady well, if you write it as a warning, it will default to resuming, and you can write a CONTROL exception catcher to kill it
17:38 kent\n Ah!. the light brightens.
17:39 TimToady All the parts of Perl 6 are very well designed, except for the parts that aren't...
17:43 PerlJam some parts have sharp edges (don't cut yourself!)  Other parts have fractal edges.  some parts are tooled to a fine precision using electron microscopes;  other parts were marked with chalk and cut with an axe.   :-)
17:45 PerlJam oh, and these parts I've just described are not all mutually exclusive.
17:46 * kent\n bets some of those edges are imaginary, or only exist in certain dimensional planes.
17:47 TimToady rakudo: say 42i.Bool
17:47 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
17:47 flussence rakudo: say (now R- now).perl # was just playing around in the REPL, found the numbers amusingly weird for some reason
17:47 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«Duration.new(397/1809)␤»
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17:49 Util Many things that were dull edges in Perl 5 are now tight dovetails in Perl 6. I plan a "dovetail" category when I start blogging.
17:50 VXZ rakudo: say i**.5
17:50 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«0.707106781186548 + 0.707106781186547i␤»
17:50 flussence rakudo: say (0.18547485973194).Rat.perl # oh wow, didn't know this worked
17:50 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«166/895␤»
17:50 TimToady rakudo: say pi.WHAT
17:50 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
17:50 TimToady rakudo: say pi.Rat.perl
17:50 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«355/113␤»
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17:51 TimToady most of the sharp edges in Perl 6 are out there where in Perl 5 you're falling off the edge of the world
17:52 flussence .oO( maybe "pi.perl" should output a continued fraction sequence )
17:52 moritz_ rakudo: say pi.Rat(1e-6).perl
17:52 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«355/113␤»
17:52 moritz_ rakudo: say pi.Rat(1e-8).perl
17:52 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«103993/33102␤»
17:53 TimToady my @pi-digits := ...
17:53 Util flussence: a continued fraction object type would be interesting. Module welcome :)
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17:54 [Coke] p6eval: say pi.Rat
17:54 TimToady you broked it
17:54 moritz_ rakudo: say pi.Rat
17:55 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«3.14159292035398␤»
17:55 PerlJam interesting
17:56 TimToady seems like one could get a better Rat of pi, even in 32 bits
17:56 [Coke] didn't like to be addressed by name. I was trying to /msg it anyway.
17:56 Util (Repeating announcement from this morning)
17:56 Util Mac OS X users needed for testing of Rakudo Star binary package (first cut) : http://s3.datasaw.com/Rakudo_​Star_2010-12_experiment_1.dmg
17:56 moritz_ TimToady: .Rat uses a predefined precision in rakudo
17:57 moritz_ rakudo: say pi.Rat(1e-10)
17:57 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«3.14159265361894␤»
17:57 moritz_ rakudo: say pi.Rat(1e-10).perl
17:57 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«312689/99532␤»
17:57 moritz_ rakudo: say pi.Rat(1e-12).perl
17:57 p6eval rakudo de98d1: OUTPUT«4272943/1360120␤»
17:58 TimToady the default seems rather lossy
17:58 PerlJam Any reason we don't truncate the digits beyond the Rat's precision?
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17:59 moritz_ PerlJam: the NYI reason, probably
17:59 PerlJam okie
17:59 TimToady also, with 64-bit denom we could pretty much convert most Nums directly to a Rat
17:59 TimToady and I still think lazy gcd is a good idea
18:00 TimToady there's no reason to do gcd when adding up a bunch of, say, dollars and cents.
18:00 TimToady you just want everything to be /100
18:01 TimToady though we should probably support Rat100 etc. types anyway, unless they're called Fix100
18:01 TimToady but it's kinda convenient that powers of ten don't intersect powers of two
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18:02 TimToady but probably it's just a role, anyway: Fix100 := Fix[1/100]
18:03 VXZ Where do I report problems with that os x binary mentioned above?
18:03 moritz_ VXZ: talk to Util
18:04 TimToady if it's a role, we can also have fixed points larger than 1, like Fix[1_000_000_000]  # gdp scale :)
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18:06 VXZ Util: trying that os x binary...dyld complaining about not being able to find /sw/lib/libgmp.3.dylib...let me know what I can do to be more informative
18:07 arnsholt VXZ: Do you have fink installed?
18:07 kent\n are there any static-builds of rakudo that can just be downloaded and run? waiting for compile and getting it to work is such a barrier to entry
18:07 VXZ arnsholt: Nope.  Didn't know it was needed.  Perhaps the install doc should mention it?
18:08 kent\n ( for .nix  that is )
18:08 arnsholt VXZ: It shouldn't be a requirement =)
18:09 arnsholt But it could be that Util is using it and missed a dependency
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18:09 PerlJam kent\n: I think you can get .deb and .rpm packages
18:09 moritz_ kent\n: the rakudo homepage has links to some linux binary packages
18:09 kent\n PerlJam: I was just wanting a tar.bz2/tar.gz I could untar in ~/ and have it JustWork
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18:10 Util kent\n: We recognized exactly that point in a #phasers meeting last month. This OS X binary is the first of several platforms; good to know that at least one person would want it on Linux too.
18:10 moritz_ rakudo and parrot aren't relocatable
18:10 Util VXZ: Thanks! That is just the kind of info I was looking for!
18:11 VXZ Util: Np.  :)  Yeah, it's a nearly-pristine install of 10.6.  So...I don't even have a /sw
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18:11 Util moritz_: I have partially solved the relocation problem, at least on OS X.
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18:11 * arnsholt goes to try the OS X binary as well
18:12 arnsholt I'm pretty sure I have a libgmp, but in /opt/local and not /sw (since I use MacPorts)
18:13 Util arnsholt: You may need to ln -s /opt/local/lib/libgmp.3.dylib /sw/lib/libgmp.3.dylib
18:13 arnsholt Yeah, probably =)
18:14 colomon #phasers in 46 minutes?
18:14 arnsholt You're using fink or somesuch, right?
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18:15 * kent\n wonders how to get -I lib # equivlaent in rakudo
18:15 arnsholt Util: Symlinking gave me a new error
18:15 Util A mix of fink and manual installs, most dated from before I started keeping notes.
18:15 kent\n 'man rakudo' # very unhelpful :(
18:16 moritz_ kent\n: contributions for a better manapge are welcome
18:16 arnsholt It finds the lib, but it's the wrong architecture
18:16 arnsholt Your perl6 is i386 and my lib is x64
18:17 Util kent\n: BEGIN { @*INC.push("the/path/of/my/lib") };
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18:18 Util (Not a permanent solution; `use lib` not implemented yet)
18:18 arnsholt There's also PERL6LIB=/path/to/stuff perl6
18:19 Util arnsholt: OK, so I must either bundle libgmp, or tell Parrot to build as if I lack it.
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18:20 kent\n Util: thanks.
18:21 arnsholt Util: Yeah, I think so
18:23 Util I want to bundle, but creating the scaffolding to allow it will be complicated. I will rebuild without it for now, and add it back in later.
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18:29 kent\n Is there anything like  Path::Class qw( dir file ) + MooseX::Types::Path::Class in P6 yet?
18:30 [Coke] Util: relocation problem - did you fix the "really linked against build dir" problem too?
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18:34 [Coke] which syn defines Num?
18:35 colomon S32
18:35 colomon what do you need to know?
18:35 Util [Coke]: `install_name_tool` lets me change the installed exes to look for the dylibs at their new locations. Probably not the long-term solution, but it works for now.
18:36 TimToady num is basically just a C double
18:36 TimToady Num is just the boxed version of that
18:36 [Coke] Util: ah, that's the trick that the port uses.
18:36 Util [Coke]: Which port is that?
18:36 [Coke] TimToady: ROODE is asking why Num includes .Rat(); trying to find a Syn to point him at.
18:36 [Coke] Util: ... the macport
18:36 Util thx
18:37 TimToady and the Num api is in S32-setting-library/Numeric.pod, presumably
18:37 [Coke] colomon: S32 is the setting. Is the setting "core" ? (is the part of core you can write in perl6?)
18:38 TimToady we don't use the word "core" much
18:38 colomon I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.
18:38 colomon Most of the Num operations are a direct call into Parrot.
18:38 TimToady the setting is the namespace that is outside your compilation unit
18:38 [Coke] I don't see the rat function in there, just the Rat type.
18:38 TimToady and I mean lexical namespace when I say that
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18:39 [Coke] by core I mean: anything calling itself perl6 will have to have it.
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18:39 TimToady all classes are automatically recognized as conversion functions/methods
18:40 TimToady the precision to Rat() is likely undocumented
18:40 [Coke] ah, so that's really a cast between types?
18:40 [Coke] (lossy)
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18:40 TimToady yes
18:40 colomon Yes.
18:40 colomon method Rat(Real $epsilon = 1.0e-6)
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18:41 pmichaud is #phasers still at 18:30 utc?
18:41 [Coke] Thanks.
18:41 TimToady epsilon?  doesn't seem very infinitesimal...
18:41 pmichaud or is it 19:30 utc?
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18:41 [Coke] I predict his followup question will be: "Why is Rat a builtin type?". ;)
18:42 moritz_ pmichaud: 19:00 utc iirc
18:42 pmichaud moritz_++  # thanks
18:42 moritz_ ie in ~18min
18:42 pmichaud so, #phasers in 18
18:43 colomon yes
18:43 Util For future reference, the /topic in #phasers shows the meeting time.
18:44 pmichaud D'oh!  Util++
18:44 pmichaud I rarely see the topics... but yes, it was there when I re-joined the chan.
18:45 colomon I'm always wondering how UTC corresponds to local time.  ;)
18:45 [Coke] ... wierd. google comp.lang.parrot calendar, I'm not seeing
18:46 pmichaud one of my previous jobs meant doing nearly all of my work in utc, so I've learned to keep track of both :-)
18:46 Util You can do a bare /topic to force the topic to display as if it were a message; I have to do that to see long topics.
18:48 moritz_ colomon: do you know of date --utc  ?
18:48 colomon doesn't work on the mac
18:48 colomon though if I remembered it, I suppose I could always log into one of the linux boxes to check.
18:48 colomon except I think their time is drifting again.  :\
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18:51 pmichaud I often use    "TZ=UTC0 date"
18:51 pmichaud works in places where --utc isn't available
18:51 PerlJam date -u  ?
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18:51 PerlJam (where is that not available?)
18:52 colomon ah, date -u works
18:52 colomon (on OS X)
18:53 TimToady the terminal should just highlight utc times with a popupable local time :)
18:54 TimToady like it does with already with URIs
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19:02 diakopter TimToady: have you thought any further about my whine for signature aliases?  I realize you said "so I'd just go with Callable[:()] for now", but what I was asking for was a way to alias *those* signatures/annotations to a much shorter symbol.
19:02 TimToady all types can be aliased with subset
19:03 diakopter oh
19:03 TimToady #phasers, btw
19:03 diakopter I didn't understand that from http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2011-01-03#i_3145363
19:03 diakopter oh
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19:09 diakopter TimToady: but now I get it, usthinks
19:09 diakopter er, usthink
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19:31 masak colomon: skipping "that test" in p4's base-test is OK. especially if passing it would sacrifice elegance.
19:32 masak colomon: in fact, you're free to disregard the base-test files altogether... they're just there to make sure there is *some* common ground between my vision of the problem and people's solutions.
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19:34 arnsholt masak: I hope the secret test cases for p4 are bit cleverer though
19:34 arnsholt If not, evaluating the submissions is gonna be a pain =)
19:35 masak s/If not, //
19:35 masak :)
19:35 arnsholt I suppose
19:35 colomon \o/
19:35 masak arnsholt: I would object, but then I'd have to explain why it ain't necessarily so. and I don't want to spoil the fun.
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19:36 arnsholt masak: Then we are two ;)
19:37 masak I'm glad to hear colomon, arnsholt and Util are all working on solutions.
19:38 masak I'm slightly *surprised* to see you discussing your solutions in the backlog. but I forget that you are trusting, non-conspiratory people :)
19:38 arnsholt "Working on a solution" might be overselling a bit, but I've done the research necessary for work at least =)
19:38 masak arnsholt: ok. you realize that the deadline is in 10 days, right?
19:38 arnsholt Heh. It's hard not to discuss it for me. I quite like discussing this kind of thing
19:39 colomon +1
19:39 arnsholt Yeah, it pains me greatly that I don't have time to complete all the tasks =)
19:39 arnsholt Especially p4 was fun discovering some cleverness for
19:39 masak yeah, but don't you like to sneak in the best solution, win the books, and THEN talk about it? :P
19:40 arnsholt Well, that would be fun. But I've been spending most of the christmas holidays doing absolutely nothing, so I don't have the time to do that =)
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19:41 arnsholt I'm pretty sure I'm out on number of completed tasks
19:41 Tene masak: For me, and I expect several others, if I wanted books, I'd just buy them.  A competition like yours is fun in itself, rather more than just the value of books.
19:41 colomon +1
19:41 PerlJam Tene++
19:41 arnsholt Yeah, it's mostly the chance to do stuff with Perl 6
19:42 colomon Well, I wouldn't mind a few books.  ;)
19:42 arnsholt True, true. I did say mostly =D
19:42 Tene masak: as well, only one person will enjoy winning, but everyone can enjoy talking about it together.
19:42 masak :)
19:42 colomon But I'm doing it for the craic.
19:42 arnsholt colomon: craic?
19:42 Tene So if I were trying to optimize my expected utility, I'd anticipate more incremental expected fun from a conversation than from trying to keep secrets.
19:42 colomon arnsholt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craic
19:42 pmichaud I even thought about contributing to increase the size of masak++'s prize.... or to allow masak++ to declare a second winner that I'd fund
19:43 masak I'm going to host a context next year. and I'll spend all year thinking of a way to get you guys to be more secretive and avaracious :P
19:43 pmichaud since I'm not planning to compete :)
19:44 arnsholt masak: I suggest mind controlling space satelites
19:44 colomon arnsholt: normally I'd spell it crack, but I thought that would just cause more confusion.
19:44 Tene masak: Next year you should solicit contributions to the reward.
19:44 Tene I'd have contributed.
19:44 * TimToady always enters contexts
19:44 pmichaud maybe I'll just offer to fund an "honorable mention" prize if masak++ would like to award one
19:44 * pmichaud always loses contexts
19:44 masak arnsholt: how come, it didn't help this year. er. I mean "interesting idea". heh.
19:44 stkowski left #perl6
19:44 * colomon is context-free
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19:45 arnsholt colomon: Nifty concept. Never encountered that before
19:45 masak pmichaud: I think that might become very much needed. we have 18 contestant, someone is bound to be honourable and mentionworthy. :)
19:45 Tene masak: speaking of optimizing expected utility, HP:MoR is updating again.
19:45 masak colomon: maybe you're already on craic.
19:45 pmichaud masak:  plan on being able to award a second prize then.  you can also decide the amount
19:45 masak Tene: \o/
19:45 pmichaud (presumably it would be for less than the first prize :)
19:46 pmichaud er
19:46 pmichaud rephrase
19:46 masak pmichaud: :)
19:46 pmichaud (presumably it would not be greater than the first prize)
19:46 pmichaud (it could be ==)
19:46 masak depends on the honourableness, I guess.
19:47 Tene I'm rather entertained by greater reward for second place.
19:47 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl​6/index.cgi?perl_6_operator_tablet
19:47 Tene Greater reward for second place would rather *encourage* sharing and cooperation.
19:48 Tene Which I rather like.
19:48 masak I missed #phasers today, because a bus driver thought I said "middle of nowhere", not "$home".
19:48 masak Tene: think of the first price as the second price, then. :P
19:49 flussence masak: that's because $HOME is case-sensitive :P
19:49 * flussence ducks
19:49 masak s:g/price/prize/
19:49 masak d'oh!
19:49 masak I should have shouted at him. I'll do that next time I see him.
19:52 arnsholt This channel is pleasingly random
19:53 pmichaud $home would've worked in csh
19:53 pmichaud but it's probably the only thing that works in csh :)
19:54 Su-Shee good evening everyone.
19:54 pmichaud Su-Shee!  o/
19:54 colomon \o
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19:55 Util Now configured without gmp, pcre, opengl, zlib, gettext, icu, libffi, or readline :
19:55 Util http://s3.datasaw.com.s3.amazonaws.com​/Rakudo_Star_2010-12_experiment_2.dmg
19:57 masak Su-Shee: \o
19:57 tadzik ~~
19:58 Su-Shee ~~ should have been called surf operator.. it looks like riding the wave.. ;)
19:58 tadzik :)
20:00 masak the pair-o'-worms operator.
20:01 estrabd_reading is now known as estrabd
20:02 Su-Shee wiggle op would also have been nice, because you could say something like "just wiggle it!"
20:02 arnsholt Util: That looks good to me
20:02 arnsholt otool -L show no weird libs being referenced as well
20:03 masak Su-Shee: from now on, I will tell people to just wiggle it.
20:04 PerlJam Su-Shee: except that I call it "squiggle"
20:04 PerlJam ;)
20:04 Su-Shee works as verb as well :)
20:05 plobsing left #perl6
20:08 Util arnsholt: thanks!
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20:24 tylercurtis Hi, #perl6.
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20:25 colomon o/
20:26 amkrankruleuen joined #perl6
20:26 TimToady I kinda think of it as the "aloha" operator
20:26 tadzik tylercurtis: o/
20:28 tadzik snarkyboojum: it's Niecza, not Niezca (twitter) :)
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20:29 masak tylercurtis: hi!
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21:16 VXZ Util: that one works good here too...any tests or anything I should run?
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21:22 Util VXZ: thanks for testing! I am not looking for any particular functional tests yet, just "it runs on my system" and "I don't understand X, so explain X better"
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21:26 VXZ Util: nope, seems to work fine.  Follows the usual mac install process and packaging format and everything, ought to be easy for anyone to figure out.  Maybe put an alias to perl6 with a pretty icon in the root?  *shrug*
21:29 bacek_ joined #perl6
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21:32 Util VXZ: The "pretty icon" is in the works; Camelia is modelling for icon and for the background of the root folder.
21:32 Util I am not sure what you mean by "alias to perl6", though. Can you describe it more precisely?
21:33 bacek left #perl6
21:34 VXZ An alias in os x is like a shortcut in windows.
21:34 VXZ perl6 being bin/perl6
21:36 [Coke] Util: via the finder instead of the shell.
21:36 Util Do you mean a symlink?
21:36 [Coke] symlink is for the shell. Alias is for the Finder.
21:37 [Coke] I don't particularly care for aliases, myself. not sure if it's because I'm using using the command line.
21:37 VXZ I agree, I'm just looking for ways to make it more friendly for the mac gui people.
21:38 Util OK, let's approce this from the other direction. What is this supposed to *do*? Double-click on it, and it opens a Terminal session with the $PATH set correctly? I am just fuzzy on the goal of the suggestion.
21:38 Util s/approce/approch/
21:38 VXZ Also, you could change the structure of the folder to be a .app (with is just a folder with a special bit set and a particular format that gives os x some ideas of what to run when you click on it, which file types it should be associated with, etc)
21:39 VXZ Trying to make it easier for less-knowledgable people to play with it, or for gui-inclined people to integrate it into their desktop and workflow.
21:39 arnsholt While we're at it, I'd suggest changing the _ in the folder name to a space as well
21:41 VXZ And yeah, I was thinking it could just launch perl6...you can already double-click on it directly in the finder, and it opens a terminal for you automatically, nothing to do there.
21:42 Util I am considering .app format, just because it provides auto-support of bundled libgmp, etc. I had rejected .app previously because it is *not* an app; it has no sensible base function. I will look harder at this; I see that it is what users would expect, at the least.
21:43 Util arnsholt: Noted, thanks! # underscore in name
21:44 VXZ Util: plus, then, you can do the filetype associations, in case a script doesn't have a shebang, I think
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21:47 Util VXZ: filetype associations; noted, thanks!
21:49 tylercurtis left #perl6
21:49 VXZ Pretty sure .app allows you to do some other stuff, too, but not sure what.  Not a big mac fan.  I just own one.
21:50 VXZ Util: btw, thanks for doing this!  Anything that makes p6 more accessible to more people is, in my mind, a Good Thing(tm).
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22:28 drake1 can I please have those video presentation links about perl6 again?
22:28 drake1 they were fairly good
22:29 shi joined #perl6
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22:31 masak drake1: sorry, we only hand out one video presentation link per customer.
22:31 drake1 oh
22:31 masak if you lose it, you have to wait until our next Special Offer.
22:31 drake1 I thought they functioned like ads
22:32 masak we like to keep scarcity in the picture.
22:32 drake1 fine
22:32 drake1 extremely feature rich
22:32 PerlJam drake1: they're on perl6.org aren't they?
22:32 masak drake1: which video presentations do you mean? szabgab's?
22:33 PerlJam masak: there are *more* than just szabgab's?
22:33 drake1 the one about argument aignatures
22:33 drake1 signatures
22:33 masak PerlJam: ssh! let me handle the PR here :P
22:33 drake1 *giggle*
22:34 masak drake1: http://szabgab.com/blog/2010/08/perl6-s​ubroutines-and-home-made-operators.html
22:34 molaf joined #perl6
22:34 masak der
22:34 drake1 great masak
22:34 masak drake1: don't listen to PerlJam, there's lots and lots of Perl 6 instruction videos! :)
22:34 masak we have to ask people to slow down making them.
22:35 stkowski left #perl6
22:35 PerlJam masak: careful what you wish for  :)
22:36 masak hm, true.
22:36 masak szabgab++ # for making those videos
22:37 masak today's autopun spotted in the wild: "Apple Cancels Press Conference on iPhone Alarm Glitch after Steve Jobs Oversleeps"
22:37 * PerlJam notes he's spent a good portion of his time with Perl on IRC telling people "that book/tutorial/whatever is crap, see perl.org"
22:37 PerlJam I'd hate to have to repeat that with Perl 6
22:38 PerlJam (although, I suppose I'll spend a good bit of time telling people instead, "that's for Perl 5, what you want it perl6.org")
22:38 drake1 the transcript is really helpful. thanks
22:39 drake1 sub fn(Int $i where { $i < 500 } ) { ...
22:40 drake1 that's pretty obvious restraints on the signature
22:40 masak yes, it sure beats no signatures, as with Perl 5.
22:40 masak or less-than-awesome signatures, as with most other languages :P
22:41 drake1 I still love to shift and ( $a, $b, $c ) = @_ # list context
22:41 tadzik I don't :)
22:41 drake1 hmm
22:42 huf as always, there's a module for that on CPAN :)
22:42 tadzik but I started to like Perl 5 less as I use more 6
22:42 huf but that still doesnt make it awesome-signatures, only less-than-awesome
22:42 drake1 perl6 seems perlfect
22:43 pyrimidine left #perl6
22:44 drake1 in C it's pretty standard to add the signature like in perl5, for the `ed' scripts
22:44 drake1 when they're no all int's
22:45 drake1 the sematic tokens, however, have always had room for it
22:45 drake1 semantic
22:49 tadzik http://goo.gl/BQCxh (SCNR)
22:51 kaare_ left #perl6
22:52 drake1 great thing about perl6, it's now with extra tasteful cast operators
22:52 TimToady or at least tasty
22:52 drake1 yeah
22:53 plobsing left #perl6
22:54 drake1 Perl6 is actually in the Future Directions of www.gangsterfreak.com/vcfed
22:55 c1sung joined #perl6
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22:56 drake1 can the similarity of "4k" and "fork" be a straight coincidence?
22:56 Alias Quick Question: Will Perl 6 allow for fast subroutine calls?
22:56 Alias In Perl, the limiting factor for many things seems to be that the underlying minimum cost of a subroutine call is rather high
22:57 Alias (Methods even more so)
22:59 c1sung left #perl6
23:03 drake1 you can't call them from your assembly codes either
23:04 drake1 or maybe?
23:05 pmurias Alias: according to sorear subroutines are already faster in niecza than they are in Perl 5
23:05 drake1 Perl has always been a bit slow but incredibly handy
23:06 Alias neat
23:06 pmurias s/subroutines/subroutine calls/
23:06 bacek__ left #perl6
23:07 snarkyboojum I wonder how that would be/has been benchmarked
23:08 pmurias calling a sub 1000x times?
23:09 _twitch left #perl6
23:09 hercynium left #perl6
23:09 Alias snarkyboojum: Some of the benchmarks in those online multi-language shootout claim to test something or another, but they require all languages implement the code directly as a copy of the C code
23:10 Alias snarkyboojum: And when you make it as sub-call heavy as the C version it seems to end up being 10 or more times slower than if you could just inline the most intensive ones
23:12 snarkyboojum Alias: ah - language comparison is tough I guess
23:13 Alias Especially when they insist things be implemented as if you are writing C
23:13 TimToady ***************
23:14 TimToady obviously, we just need a Perl 6 compiler that's a little smarter about inlining and unrolling... :)
23:15 Alias right! :)
23:15 Alias Actually, I'm seeing something similar when I'm writing OpenGL code
23:15 Alias I'm having to be completely paranoid about avoiding function calls anywhere I can
23:17 Alias Anything that is O(Frame * Object) is going to be hit 60k times a second, and the function/method call overheads are starting to add up to a non-trivial percentage of total CPU consumption
23:17 drake1 I like the ease of hash associative sub routines in Perl
23:17 Alias Although that's probably being exadurated quite a bit by the profiler
23:17 TimToady drake1: not sure what you mean by that
23:18 drake1 then I don't have to link up the "hal" object that I wrote in m4 $^|as -o $<
23:18 drake1 TimTody: like spaghetti declarations
23:19 drake1 nested sub's in hash definitions
23:20 TimToady that's mostly just a consequence of having first-class functions
23:20 snarkyboojum has Niecza implemented loops yet?
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23:21 TimToady niecza: .say for 1..10
23:21 p6eval niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unhandled statement modifier for at /tmp/mGgoJgOKLu line 1 (EOF):␤------> [32m.say for 1..10[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤Can't call method "statement_level" on unblessed reference at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Niecza/Actions.pm line 2383.␤Check
23:21 p6eval ..failed␤»
23:21 TimToady niecza: for 1..10 { .say }
23:21 p6eval niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Can't call method "statement_level" on unblessed reference at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Niecza/Actions.pm line 2383.␤Attribute (do) does not pass the type constraint because: Validation failed for 'Op' with value undef (not isa Op) at
23:21 p6eval ../home/p6eval/niecz…
23:22 TimToady niecza: for 1,2,3 { .say }
23:22 p6eval niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Can't call method "statement_level" on unblessed reference at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Niecza/Actions.pm line 2383.␤Attribute (do) does not pass the type constraint because: Validation failed for 'Op' with value undef (not isa Op) at
23:22 p6eval ../home/p6eval/niecz…
23:22 TimToady niecza: loop { say "hi"; last }
23:22 p6eval niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Action method statement_control__S_loop not yet implemented at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Niecza/Actions.pm line 55.␤Check failed␤»
23:22 pumphaus hum, it seems the rakudo star build system seems to be broken
23:22 bacek__ joined #perl6
23:22 snarkyboojum doesn't look like it eh
23:22 pumphaus it assumes an already exisiting perl6 binary in $PREFIX
23:22 TimToady snarkyboojum: the answer appears to be a close approximation of "no"
23:23 TimToady well, there's always recursion...
23:23 Grrrr left #perl6
23:23 snarkyboojum which might not be the best way for benchmarking a number of subroutine calls :D
23:24 TimToady niecza: map { .say }, 1,2,3
23:24 p6eval niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Can't call method "statement_level" on unblessed reference at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Niecza/Actions.pm line 2383.␤Attribute (do) does not pass the type constraint because: Validation failed for 'Op' with value undef (not isa Op) at
23:24 p6eval ../home/p6eval/niecz…
23:24 TimToady niecza: my @x = map { .say }, 1,2,3
23:24 p6eval niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Can't call method "statement_level" on unblessed reference at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Niecza/Actions.pm line 2383.␤Attribute (do) does not pass the type constraint because: Validation failed for 'Op' with value undef (not isa Op) at
23:24 p6eval ../home/p6eval/niecz…
23:24 TimToady niecza: my @x = map -> $x { $x.say }, 1,2,3
23:24 p6eval niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
23:24 TimToady there's a loop!
23:25 snarkyboojum building niecza has improved quite a bit on OS X over the last couple of months anyway - Just Worked the other day
23:25 Grrrr joined #perl6
23:25 TimToady niecza: my @x = for 1,2,3 -> $x { $x.say }
23:25 p6eval niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Word 'for' interpreted as a listop; please use 'do for' to introduce the statement control word at /tmp/k3QkznPnEQ line 1:␤------> [32mmy @x = [33m⏏[31mfor 1,2,3 -> $x { $x.say }[0m␤Unexpected block in infix position (two terms in a
23:25 p6eval ..row) at /tmp/k…
23:25 TimToady niecza: my @x = do for 1,2,3 -> $x { $x.say }
23:25 p6eval niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
23:25 TimToady ooh, there's another loop
23:26 masak tadzik: the more I use Perl 6, the more I like and respect Perl 5, too.
23:26 snarkyboojum specifying the series explicitly is no fun :P
23:26 TimToady niecza: my @x = do for 1 .. 3 -> $x { $x.say }
23:26 p6eval niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: System.Exception: Unable to find lexical &infix:<..> in ANON␤  at Niecza.CLRBackend.NamProcessor.ResolveLex (System.String name, System.Int32& uplevel, Boolean core) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤  at
23:26 p6eval ..Niecza.CLRBackend.NamProcessor.RawAccessLex (System.St…
23:26 TimToady niecza: my @x = do for 1 ... 3 -> $x { $x.say }
23:26 p6eval niecza v1-82-gf7b008c: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: System.Exception: Unable to find lexical &infix:<...> in ANON␤  at Niecza.CLRBackend.NamProcessor.ResolveLex (System.String name, System.Int32& uplevel, Boolean core) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤  at
23:26 p6eval ..Niecza.CLRBackend.NamProcessor.RawAccessLex (System.S…
23:29 pmurias left #perl6
23:30 snarkyboojum I'll place a feature request with sorear asking for loops :)
23:31 felliott left #perl6
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23:38 drake1 Perl6 can run in a Windows 7 terminal, right?
23:39 felliott joined #perl6
23:40 drake1 might be a little bit awkward
23:40 TimToady I can't think of any reason why not, as long as it can actually find the executable
23:41 drake1 set the path with the path command I guess
23:42 drake1 actually I think I'll just copy my Cygwin to it
23:42 drake1 cygwin.dll or something like that
23:42 drake1 no
23:42 TimToady or just install a fresh cygwin
23:43 drake1 I will simply use the ftp client to transfer the program to a proper hosted execution environment
23:43 felliott left #perl6
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23:49 drake1 does anyone know how to: cat > $name on windows?
23:49 flussence s/cat/type/
23:49 drake1 ok
23:50 drake1 that should be fine
23:50 sjohnson pigwyn
23:50 cotto_work jnthn: ping
23:50 drake1 maybe copy type cat hehe heh
23:51 shi left #perl6
23:52 sorear good * #perl6
23:52 tadzik good star sorear
23:52 drake1 then it's quick to only update a part of the script before it's concatenated on the host
23:53 flussence if you want to `cat` files on windows, it's "copy file1 + file2 + fileN file.out"
23:53 drake1 ok
23:53 drake1 then I wont copy type cat
23:54 drake1 thanks for the tip
23:54 drake1 does anyone have a shell account with perl6 ?
23:55 drake1 ed and cat?
23:55 flussence (of course, the last time I used windows was some horrible WinCE embedded thing, so all this is a bit fuzzy)
23:55 drake1 eventually through a VPN telnet
23:56 * sorear -> backlog
23:57 sorear V15170R: monads and roles are not related
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