Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-01-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:06 snarkyboojum cosimo: ping
00:07 lue hello world o/
00:07 takadonet lue: yo
00:07 snarkyboojum hellue
00:08 sorear phenny: tell masak Assuming you went the Debian route, you're missing something with a name like libmono2.0-cil
00:08 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
00:11 snarkyboojum Niecza build error on a clean checkout on OS X FWIW - https://gist.github.com/772167
00:11 snarkyboojum was building a few days ago
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00:19 snarkyboojum I'm having a strange issue where running a test for one of cosimo++'s perl-facter modules is causing the perl6 process to consume memory until killed manually - has to do with blib being included in $PERL6LIB prior to running prove - https://gist.github.com/772170
00:20 snarkyboojum not an issue with the module that I can tell, as it passes tests ok, seems to be some weirdness with using the blib version of the module when running prove for this one module
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00:28 colomon I had problems with facter going berserk as well.
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00:32 snarkyboojum colomon: ah good to hear it's reproducible - it basically stops me from being about to use neutro's smoker.pl
00:34 snarkyboojum colomon: interestingly, it works if I remove the compiled PIR version of Facter::Util::Resolution in the blib...
00:34 snarkyboojum blib directory even
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00:56 colomon sorry, my computer was taken over for Thomas the Tank Engine watching.  Back in a minute....
00:59 snarkyboojum ah - turns out it's just the PIR version of this module causing perl6 is blow up and nom memory until manually forces to close
01:00 snarkyboojum forced
01:03 dalek sprixel: ba0654b | diakopter++ | sprixel/ (12 files):
01:03 dalek sprixel: Add Complex (Complex64), BigRational, and BigInteger as types easily accessible from perlesque code, to be used as REPRs.
01:03 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/ba0654b59f
01:06 dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/per​l6/index.cgi?perl_6_basics_tablet
01:06 snarkyboojum phenny: tell cosmio, FWIW - it looks like the compiled PIR version of Facter::Util::Resolution, when used, causes Rakudo to use excessive amounts of memory until it is killed
01:06 phenny snarkyboojum: I'll pass that on when cosmio is around.
01:07 snarkyboojum phenny: tell cosimo, but works OK when the PIR version is removed and the .pm version is used
01:07 phenny snarkyboojum: I'll pass that on when cosimo is around.
01:08 diakopter re ba0654b, note that those types have built in implicit conversions to all the other built-in CLR value types
01:18 diakopter perlesque: my $a = Complex.new(4452, 3325); say($a); say($a.GetType)
01:18 p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«(4452, 3325)␤System.Numerics.Complex␤»
01:21 diakopter perlesque: my $a = Complex.new(4452, 3325); my $b = Complex.new(2,8); say($a); say($a.GetType); say($a / $b); say($a * $b)
01:21 p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«(4452, 3325)␤System.Numerics.Complex␤(522.117647058824, -425.970588235294)␤(-17696, 42266)␤»
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01:22 diakopter tiz speedy and stuff
01:26 * diakopter must now debug why generic types from CLR corlib are getting thrown into *my* new assembly
01:28 sorear ?
01:29 diakopter I dunno.
01:29 diakopter more info in a bit
01:29 diakopter my new ModuleBuilder, I mean
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01:35 diakopter fixed
01:35 diakopter now to see whether that fixes a seemingly-unrelated error on mono
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04:07 Quadrescence http://i.imgur.com/qTLPM.gif
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04:16 diakopter um
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04:31 coldhead that is powerful awesome, Quadrescence
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06:16 Quadrescence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZr3_Ac_nB4
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08:23 typepeter Is it possible to implement perl6 in C? Though it's difficult....
08:26 sorear sure
08:26 sorear perl5 was, after all
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08:27 typepeter thank you,sorear :D
08:27 sorear the main issue will be the grammar - nobody except au knows how macros should work with a non-Perl grammar
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08:30 typepeter because of the dynamic structure of perl6?I meant, maybe written in C,it might occur many problems in the runtime?
08:34 typepeter as i knew,everything in C lang is a value or a pointer (just in pure C)
08:37 typepeter so we can consider everything in C is a pointer to executeable block(function) or a pointer to data,or just pure values.
08:37 typepeter In perl6,everything is a reference to an object
08:40 typepeter but,what's the difference between implementation of perl5 and perl6?
08:46 plobsing typepeter: are you implying implementing Perl 5 would be easy? I think Topaz teaches us something different.
08:47 typepeter Sorry,I don't imply that...I just think about the difference
08:48 woosley maybe implement Perl6 in C is a super hard work
08:49 plobsing you'd greenspun a lot. if you accept that upfront, you would probably come up with a VM.
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08:56 typepeter plobsing: thank you:D I'll study more about it
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08:58 moritz_ A compiler is "just" text processing with some kind of output, often binary
08:58 moritz_ usually writing text processing programs in high level languages is more (programmer time) efficient than writing it in C
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09:03 mathw you could implement it in assembly language if you wanted to... but it'd be rather painful :)
09:07 cosimo snarkyboojum: cool, thanks
09:07 phenny cosimo: 01:07Z <snarkyboojum> tell cosimo but works OK when the PIR version is removed and the .pm version is used
09:07 cosimo morning, #perl6
09:08 moritz_ good morning zebras!
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09:11 sorear hi cosimo
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09:25 masak morning, #perl6
09:25 phenny masak: 00:08Z <sorear> tell masak Assuming you went the Debian route, you're missing something with a name like libmono2.0-cil
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09:26 masak ok.
09:27 typepeter Hence,There is no necessity to implement it in C...?(if it's just for the running performance)
09:27 Su-Shee hey you've got paid a nice compliment. compared to python 3 and ruby 2 some people like to have your productivity :)
09:27 Su-Shee (you = you perl 6 developers)
09:27 masak :)
09:27 masak Su-Shee: url?
09:28 moritz_ typepeter: the choice of implementation language will likely have only minor impact on the run time speed
09:28 Su-Shee masak: still the two threads about my article in reddit/hn. (reddit -> "Get something the size of Perl6 designed and implemented in two years? Python 3 extended an existing VM and was a "relatively mild improvement" (GvR), yet took longer than that.
09:28 moritz_ typepeter: the characterstics of the run time system are much more important
09:28 Su-Shee I'd like some of your productivity juice!
09:32 typepeter moritz_ : thank you:)  it means,we care more for the flexibility,and reuse
09:33 moritz_ typepeter: that's not what I said
09:33 moritz_ typepeter: we do too, but it's just that a good JIT might beat a classical runtime environment, independently of the implementation language
09:34 moritz_ or a good metho cache
09:34 moritz_ or Whatever
09:34 moritz_ *method
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09:35 pmurias typepeter: what do you mean by implement it to C?
09:36 masak Su-Shee: ah, that argument shows up now and then.
09:36 * masak now has a compiled niecza again o/
09:36 masak sorear++
09:37 Su-Shee masak: well it is a compliment I'd say. :)
09:37 pmurias typepeter: compiling perl6 to C is possible and has been done before, but the problem is you have to have a lot of runtime stuff?
09:37 pmurias s/?//
09:38 moritz_ std: s/?//
09:38 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Quantifier quantifies nothing at /tmp/kPldIdd_Jn line 1:␤------> [32ms/?[33m⏏[31m//[0m␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
09:40 masak Su-Shee: something between that and a defense for Perl 6 taking some time to emerge.
09:41 typepeter pmurias: i meant,"implement an interpretor in C",or "a backend in C for Perl6"
09:42 pmurias the second one has been done
09:42 typepeter moritz_ : Mm,I know
09:42 pmurias typepeter: and parrot is the first one
09:44 pmurias but Perl 6 doesn't map directly onto C (garbage collection, dynamism, multimethods) so it's really C+a runtime library
09:46 pmurias typepeter: with sufficent type inference we could translate my $foo=123 into int foo=123 in some cases, but that's a hard problem
09:48 pmurias typepeter: and even if we eventually have a smart enough compiler we might get better performance at first targeting a very fast vm so we don't have to care about optimising the garbadge callector
09:48 typepeter pmurias: I know,but...if by using hash implementation,it might be: %local{foo}=123 ,then might be right.
09:49 typepeter pmurias: I see.
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09:55 Bin_Eliazer Helo, I heard perl6 will be ready in 2011, is that true? if not, how of perl6 has been implemented according to the specs?
09:59 masak Bin_Eliazer: in some senses Perl 6 is "ready" today. in other senses, it won't be ready in 2011.
09:59 masak Bin_Eliazer: when you ask how much of Perl 6 has been implemented, in which units would you like your answer. are you content with the reply "quite a lot"? :)
10:01 Bin_Eliazer masak: I mean in sense of "I can tell my programmer: Perl v6.0.0.0 is out, optimized and releable.. lets start using it!"
10:02 masak Bin_Eliazer: based on those criteria, you might want to wait a bit. but recall that language usage is not an on/off switch. it takes some time to get used to a platform, during which it doesn't have to be "complete".
10:03 masak Bin_Eliazer: example: I've been using Rakudo Perl 6 for two and a half years now, writing all kinds of applications: web apps, regex engines, compilers...
10:03 masak I wouldn't say Rakudo is fast, by any standard. but not all problems require speedy solutions.
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10:04 gfldex slow software leave you move time to think :)
10:04 masak and gives you more reason to choose a smart solution :)
10:04 masak Bin_Eliazer: the current implementations target "early adopters", people who are curious enough about Perl 6 to withstand some bumps and bruises.
10:05 typepeter masak: could I know what kind of web apps is better in perl6?:P
10:05 Bin_Eliazer masak: I tried personally translating our reporting system from perl5.6 to perl6.. it is fun to write in perl6.. and.... it is fun.........!
10:06 typepeter but,mod_parrot seems couldn't work under win32 ...
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10:06 masak typepeter: I wouldn't claim any technological *advantages* yet, mind you. I'm saying it's possible.
10:07 masak typepeter: I imagine the advantages will come, though.
10:07 Bin_Eliazer masak: but perl is about features and speed.. and I think that speed with be the issue that will stick to perl6 for a long time..
10:07 masak Bin_Eliazer: I think you're right.
10:08 masak Bin_Eliazer: there are smart people around here working hard on the problem of speed.
10:08 sorear typepeter: I think you need to study the concept of Turing equivalence some more.
10:09 masak people in the Parrot camp, some Rakudo devs, and the entire Niecza team are all working on performance in various ways.
10:09 gfldex and the power of perl6 as a language of niceness wont show up until editors support it properly
10:10 gfldex strict types allow quite a few shortcuts
10:10 Bin_Eliazer masak: I am sure the results will be great.. and am sure everybody is doing his best.. for now.. I have admit that the syntax and programming style of perl6 is unique and very enjoyable.. :)
10:10 apejens What is Niecza?
10:10 moritz_ apejens: a Perl 6 compiler
10:11 moritz_ niecza: say "hi"
10:11 p6eval niecza v1-114-g656d5f3: OUTPUT«hi␤»
10:11 apejens so another implementation than rakudo?
10:11 moritz_ right
10:11 moritz_ niecza compiles to the CLR
10:11 moritz_ ie mono or .NET
10:11 apejens aha
10:20 typepeter sorear: why...?
10:20 Bin_Eliazer By the way.. a quetion for those who have been developing perl6 since the early 2000's.. Do you think ParrotVM could be the choice that is delaying the birth of the new language?
10:20 sorear typepeter: You doubted that Perl 6 in C was possible
10:21 masak Bin_Eliazer: I think that would be an oversimplification at best.
10:21 sorear the birth of Perl6 wasn't delayed
10:21 sorear it's in infancy, not overdue
10:22 masak Bin_Eliazer: how long would *you* take to completely redesign a successful 13-year-old scripting language? :)
10:22 Bin_Eliazer masak: another 13 years I guess :)
10:22 masak ...including providing a performant implementation for your new design.
10:22 sorear a lot of people are expecting a delivery date, but what's really happinging is a date of majority... which are completely arbitrary and largely in the eye of the beholder
10:22 masak Bin_Eliazer: something like that :)
10:23 flussence_ is now known as flussence
10:23 masak Bin_Eliazer: meaning we still have 3-6 years left, depending on how one counts.
10:23 masak Bin_Eliazer: Rakudo is four years old. go back and see what you could and could not do with Perl back in 1991.
10:24 flussence I'd personally consider p6 ready for "general" use once someone ports Frozen Bubble to it (and it's playable).
10:24 typepeter masak: sorry...there's a misunderstand...I meant , is there any good webapps framework in perl6. i'm not doubting you...
10:24 masak typepeter: sorry if I got defensive too fast :)
10:24 masak typepeter: I'm using a 250-line static web page generator written in Perl 6 for my blog.
10:25 masak typepeter: it's still in active deveopment, but it works today.
10:25 Bin_Eliazer masak: You mean perl in 90's is worse than perl6 now?
10:25 masak Bin_Eliazer: in some senses, yes.
10:25 Bin_Eliazer masak: In that case I disagree..:)
10:26 masak feel free.
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10:29 Bin_Eliazer masak: nothing personal :) I admire your and everybodys work for the open source community.. I wish I could have a part in that too...
10:31 sorear I thought the same thing half a year ago
10:31 sorear Then I got tired of wishing
10:32 Bin_Eliazer sorear: I have a business to run... :) maybe after retirement..
10:32 masak sorear++ # JFDI
10:33 pmurias sorear: what does newboundvar do?
10:34 typepeter masak: cool :D
10:36 sorear pmurias: handles the active aspects of binding
10:36 sorear e.g. in my $foo ::= $bar  newboundvar is in charge of stripping the container
10:37 sorear my $foo := funct; # newboundvar makes sure funct returned >=Any, and makes the value not interpolate
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10:37 sorear my @foo := funct; # newboundvar makes the value do interpolate
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10:38 sorear newboundvar also handles binding autovivification
10:39 pmurias hmm, it would be nice to have that documented in docs/nam.pod what all the various flags to that do
10:41 sorear yes, yes it would be
10:41 * sorear doesn't like documenting volatile stuff
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10:49 typepeter sorear: but, implementation in C seems no matter with Turing Equivalence...if we use the concept and coding a interpretor in C,why it's impossible? I jsut think about that it's possible,not because it's better solution.
10:49 moritz_ typepeter: I think sorear's point was more that it doesn't really mattter which language it's implemented in
10:50 moritz_ it's possible, but it makes more sense to use whatever language is best suited
10:50 typepeter sorear: Thank you:) I just think about it.I'm not doubting you... Thank you for your patient...I got a lot from you:)
10:56 typepeter moritz: Mm,I see.Thank you:)
10:57 dalek niecza: 2227cd8 | sorear++ | v6/ (8 files):
10:57 dalek niecza: [v6] Second batch of fixes
10:57 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/2227cd8247
10:57 dalek niecza: 8c23155 | sorear++ | v6/ (5 files):
10:57 dalek niecza: [v6] Third batch of fixes
10:57 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/8c23155a49
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11:11 masak rakudo: my $number = 24 but role { method Str { self.flip } }; say $number; say ~$number
11:11 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«24␤24␤»
11:11 masak hm.
11:11 flussence Should .indent assume a default of "*"? It's not in spec, but it seems like an obvious choice.
11:11 masak rakudo: my $number = 24 but role { method Stringy { self.flip } }; say $number; say ~$number
11:11 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«24␤24␤»
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11:11 masak flussence: this was discussed the other day. my contention is "no".
11:12 flussence ok.
11:12 masak flussence: we can always introduce that default later if it turns out it hurts too much not to have it.
11:12 masak it would be more difficult to remove it if it turns out to have been a bad idea to have it.
11:12 flussence good point.
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11:13 flussence (wrote 4 more tests on the bus, whee)
11:13 masak I think .indent(*) is a nice function, but I don't consider it the "default" behavior of .indent
11:15 dalek niecza: 300f88c | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
11:15 dalek niecza: [v6] Fourth batch of fixes; say "Hello, world" runs!
11:15 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/300f88c896
11:15 * sorear -> sleep
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11:16 masak \o/
11:17 snarkyboojum any ideas why I'm getting this error when trying to build niecza from a fresh checkout?
11:17 snarkyboojum https://gist.github.com/772167
11:19 masak snarkyboojum: huh. I just did a pull, and things build here. odd.
11:19 snarkyboojum masak: that was the case for me a few days ago too :|
11:19 * moritz_ can also build fine here
11:20 snarkyboojum I wonder if it's a mono version thing.. bizarre
11:20 masak snarkyboojum: what version of Mono do you have?
11:20 snarkyboojum 2.6.4.0
11:21 masak should be fine, then.
11:22 snarkyboojum if I revert to niecza say, 7 days ago, things build
11:23 apejens time to bring out the git bisect powertool? :p
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11:26 snarkyboojum aha - the culprit was https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/​4365d61503f149b47083080253b2bdd68bbdf127
11:27 snarkyboojum since wildcards were introduced my setup doesn't want to build Niecza :(
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11:28 snarkyboojum phenny: tell sorear, since commit 4365d61 my system can't build Niecza
11:28 phenny snarkyboojum: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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11:31 masak snarkyboojum: if you're ambitious, you might even create an issue on github.
11:31 masak or I can do it.
11:31 snarkyboojum masak: that sounds like work :O
11:32 snarkyboojum masak: would do me good to learn how to do that :P
11:34 masak oh, it's easy.
11:35 masak https://github.com/sorear/niecza/issues
11:35 masak just paste in the relevant IRC log. four-space indent makes a <code> block.
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11:52 snarkyboojum masak: cheers - just lodged one
11:52 masak snarkyboojum++
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12:36 dalek nqp-rx: cb33a76 | bacek++ | src/setting/ResizablePMCArray.pm:
12:36 dalek nqp-rx: Remove redundant pirop signatures. PAST::Compiler is smart enough to handle it as is.
12:36 dalek nqp-rx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/cb33a762c3
12:36 dalek nqp-rx: f11a416 | bacek++ | / (2 files):
12:36 dalek nqp-rx: Properly handle unscoped multi methods/subs
12:36 dalek nqp-rx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/f11a416625
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12:37 arnsholt Whee. I think my solution to p1 works now =D
12:38 dalek nqp-rx: b1a8289 | bacek++ | src/stage0/ (4 files):
12:38 dalek nqp-rx: Rebootstrap files
12:38 dalek nqp-rx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/b1a8289a4f
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12:50 moritz_ arnsholt: how many working solutions do you have?
12:52 colomon I'm pulling my hair out on p4.  I've already sent a solution for it to masak++, but I can feel a better solution in the back of my brain, and can't figure out how to code it up.
12:53 * masak smiles
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12:55 moritz_ I not only feel that my solution is sub-optimal, I *know* it
12:55 moritz_ ie I found a case where it doesn't play The One winning move
12:56 masak still a few days to go.
12:56 dalek niecza: 2df11fb | pmurias++ | cl-backend/backend.lisp:
12:56 dalek niecza: added binding and a couple of hacks to the clisp backend
12:56 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/2df11fb24d
12:56 dalek niecza: c290ade | pmurias++ | docs/nam.pod:
12:56 dalek niecza: document prog and sink nam ops
12:56 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c290adee93
12:56 dalek niecza: acf4f57 | pmurias++ | cl-backend/backend.lisp:
12:56 dalek niecza: proper binding and assigment interaction in the common lisp backend
12:56 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/acf4f577db
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12:57 colomon I believe my current solution is pretty optimal in the end game, but extremely stupid about getting there.
12:57 moritz_ colomon: where does the "end game" start?
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12:58 colomon moritz_: If there's nothing bigger than a run of six stones left, I believe my program will always win if it is possible.  It just has limited smarts getting there.
12:59 moritz_ colomon: ok
12:59 moritz_ well, that's not too complicated :-)
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12:59 takadonet morning all
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13:00 moritz_ I know that my program misbehaves when there's just one "island" (consecutive run) with length 10 left
13:00 moritz_ the winning move is it split it into 2 islands of length 4 each
13:01 moritz_ maybe I should recursively explore all solutions, and look for a winner
13:01 moritz_ or some dynamic programming
13:01 * arnsholt shuts up
13:02 masak I wish you all good luck in this endeavour.
13:02 arnsholt Thank you =)
13:02 arnsholt moritz_: I have two working solutions ATM
13:02 masak your solutions have already brightened my life in unexpected ways. I hope there will be mamy more as we approach the deadline.
13:03 arnsholt And a pretty good handle on how I'll solve p4, if no actual code
13:03 * moritz_ hopes his mult MAIN('test') { ... } was inspiring
13:03 moritz_ s/mult/multi/
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13:04 colomon moritz_: I'm curious why one run of 10 is a terrible problem.  If nothing else, seems like it would be easy enough to write a special case for it in your code...
13:05 moritz_ colomon: yep, but then my ego would suffer
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13:05 moritz_ colomon: if my AI is worse then me at playing the game, I sucked at writing the AI
13:05 moritz_ and special casing is just like playing it yourself
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13:06 flussence random thought - it'd be interesting if rakudo had a flag to print each statement as it executes... right now it runs slow enough that it'd be possible to follow in realtime
13:06 moritz_ flussence: that would make a nice blog post :-)
13:06 * colomon is starting to think moritz_'s solution must be radically different from his...
13:07 colomon afk # breakfast
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13:10 arnsholt colomon: Yeah, it's definitely completely different from what I'm planning on as well
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13:35 apejens is there any difference in a grammar between regex, rule, token etc?
13:35 arnsholt Yes
13:35 flussence whitespace, mostly
13:36 arnsholt In rules, whitespace becomes <.ws>
13:36 jnthn regex backtracks
13:36 arnsholt token and rule don't backtrack
13:36 jnthn rule and token don't
13:36 jnthn If you're writing a language parser, you mostly want rule and token (for performance reasons)
13:38 apejens I'm still struggelig with my "almost-textile/markdown, but not quite" parser from before the weekend :)
13:39 arnsholt apejens: S05 has the full details. Last bullet point of http://perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html#Reg​exes_constitute_a_first-class_languag​e%2C_rather_than_just_being_strings
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13:41 apejens ok, thanks
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13:58 apejens I think I might have asked this on friday as well, but I'm fuzzy on the memory bits: https://gist.github.com/02da976d5e03b700ce3f
13:58 apejens basically, I'm trying to store a rule-name in a variable, and pass that to parse as :rule<$var>
13:58 apejens but I get a strange exception
13:59 jnthn :rule<foo> treats foo as a literal
13:59 jnthn try :rule($var)
14:00 moritz_ or if your variable happens to be called $rule,  :$rule also works
14:00 apejens ahh, thanks
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14:47 flussence Another .indent question: should { $?TABSTOP=8; ("\t" ~ ' 'x7).indent(1) } eq "\t\t"?
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15:12 * arnsholt is enjoying p4 so far
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15:21 tadzik ~
15:21 colomon %%
15:22 flussence ??? ZZZ !!!
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15:25 huf wait, ??? !!! exists now?
15:25 huf what's it do?
15:25 flussence rakudo: say ???
15:25 flussence rakudo: say !!!
15:25 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Stub code executed  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/N7Sh0EDhDw␤Null PMC access in type()␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/N7Sh0EDhDw␤»
15:25 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Stub code executed␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/v8G9UXytOQ␤»
15:25 tadzik it's like ..., but different :)
15:25 huf oh those
15:25 huf i thought it was an alternate ternary
15:26 huf so what, ZZZ is what?
15:26 flussence std: ...?????!!!!!
15:26 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
15:26 colomon wait, which one generates the Null PMC?!
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15:26 flussence ZZZ is a very slow/inefficient Z in that context
15:27 flussence rakudo: my $a = ???; say '1'; say $a; say '2';
15:27 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Stub code executed  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/CIy1euNJuq␤Null PMC access in isa_pmc()␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/CIy1euNJuq␤»
15:27 flussence huh.
15:28 flussence rakudo: say ???.WHAT
15:28 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Stub code executed  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/JgjhEFLw5p␤Null PMC access in find_method('WHAT')␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/JgjhEFLw5p␤»
15:28 jnthn Think that's a known issue
15:28 jnthn ??? throws a resumable exception.
15:28 jnthn But evaluates to null when the thingy is resumed.
15:28 colomon jnthn++
15:29 flussence hmm...
15:29 flussence rakudo: try { ???; CATCH { say 'whatever' } }; say 'alive';
15:29 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«whatever␤alive␤»
15:29 flussence oh, basically it's just a radioactive exception right now.
15:31 moritz_ rakudo: CATCH { say "OH NOEZ" }
15:31 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f:  ( no output )
15:31 moritz_ rakudo: CATCH { say "OH NOEZ" }; die "hard"
15:31 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«OH NOEZ␤»
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15:31 jnthn die "hard" :D
15:32 jnthn I'm not sure CATCH should be catching warnings, btw.
15:32 moritz_ I'm sure it should not
15:32 jnthn Aren't they control exceptions?
15:32 moritz_ right
15:32 jnthn I thought we fixed that stuff.
15:32 moritz_ rakudo: CATCH { say "not me" }; return "ORLY?"
15:32 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f:  ( no output )
15:32 jnthn Ah, OK. It doesn't get return now but still noms warnings.
15:33 moritz_ rakudo: sub f { CATCH { say "not me" }; return "ORLY?" }; say f
15:33 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«ORLY?␤»
15:33 moritz_ \o/
15:33 flussence rakudo: use Test; plan 1; do { warn; flunk; CATCH { pass; } }
15:33 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
15:33 flussence I broke it :(
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15:34 flussence (I'm using something like that to test the bit where .indent is supposed to warn on)
15:35 moritz_ you can use Test::Util to spawn another process, and capture its STDERR
15:40 flussence rakudo: my Int $outdent = 2; my $leading-ws = token { ^ ' ' ** 0..$outdent };
15:40 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Only integers or '*' allowed as range quantifier endpoint at line 22, near "$outdent }"␤»
15:40 flussence I can't figure out what the right way to do this is...
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15:42 flussence std: my Int $outdent = 2; my $leading-ws = token { ^ ' ' ** 0..$outdent };
15:42 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Malformed range at /tmp/VuXOcLlwAt line 1:␤------> [32m2; my $leading-ws = token { ^ ' ' ** 0..[33m⏏[31m$outdent };[0m␤    expecting quantifier␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 124m␤»
15:42 moritz_ flussence: it's simply NYI
15:43 moritz_ my $outdent = 2; my $out_re = eval " \{ ^ ' ' ** 0..$outdent \}"; say so '   foo' ~~ $out_re
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15:43 moritz_ rakudo: my $outdent = 2; my $out_re = eval " \{ ^ ' ' ** 0..$outdent \}"; say so '   foo' ~~ $out_re
15:43 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
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15:44 moritz_ huh
15:44 * moritz_ too distracted for debugging
15:44 flussence rakudo: my $outdent = 2; my $out_re = eval "token \{ ^ ' ' ** 0..$outdent \}"; say so '   foo' ~~ $out_re
15:44 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
15:44 flussence missed the regex keyword :)
15:44 moritz_ erm, yes :-)
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15:52 flussence .oO( why is there a minmax but no divmod? )
15:53 flussence (oh, obvious. minmax is chainable)
15:53 colomon if you really want divmod, it's easy enough to write your own.
15:54 moritz_ on i386 there's a CPU instruction that calculates both div and mod of two integers in a single instruction
15:55 moritz_ sadly no programming language I know of exposes that to the programmer (except assembly of course, but that doesn't count as a "language" IMHO)
15:56 plobsing moritz_: FORTH has divmod IIRC
15:56 moritz_ plobsing: makes sense
15:56 mathw but do any FORTH implementations implement it in hardware on i386?
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15:59 plobsing mathw: it wouldn't be terribly hard to do just that (for a FORTH implemented on i386). they tend to expose much of the underlying machine.
15:59 plobsing an interesting combination of power and simplicity (a local optimum IMHO)
16:01 masak idea for a talk: trying out different programming language implementations, adopting the mindset "how can I subvert this system into doing something it wasn't designed to do?" :)
16:02 arnsholt masak: Well-volunteered ;)
16:02 masak yes, I meant for myself. :)
16:03 gfldex isnt perl6 subverting itself in that manner?
16:04 plobsing is there something perl 6 was not designed to do?
16:04 daxim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2Rvh8VG3o8  # how to
16:04 Su-Shee do the dishes?
16:04 flussence run perl 7 code?
16:04 huf most things not yet invented?
16:04 Su-Shee good evening everyone.
16:04 mathw take the cat to the vet#
16:05 mathw although I suppose you could, given sufficiently sophisticated hardwaqre, write a perl 6 program which would negotiate a way to the vet with a cat carrier on board
16:05 huf what, there's no vet method?
16:05 mathw starting of course with some fancy visual-recognition libraries
16:05 gfldex can cats run perl6?
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16:06 daxim http://diveintomark.org/archiv​es/2002/11/24/how_i_turned_30  # it is said the manual way involves sharp claws and prodding to see whether the beast is still alive
16:06 tadzik perl6 can run cats
16:06 tadzik https://github.com/tadzik/perl6-Acme-Meow/
16:06 masak latest in cat-based technology!
16:07 flussence but can cat cat a cat?
16:07 gfldex was thinking along this line: http://images.wikia.com/fal​lout/images/d/d2/FNVRex.png
16:07 tadzik doggy!
16:08 daxim looks like straight outta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Boy_and_His_Dog
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16:08 gfldex close, it's fallout 3
16:09 mdxi that was a *terrible* movie :)
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16:10 tadzik it's a novel adaptation, they rarely are good
16:12 colomon short story, actually.  ;)
16:13 tadzik s/they/the novel adaptations/
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16:13 * colomon wonders if the rest of the book that "A Boy and His Dog" was supposed to be chapter 2 of ever got written.
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16:43 mama21mama hi
16:44 masak mama21mama: hi!
16:45 mama21mama gtranslate> "only test the bot which logs"
16:45 * masak blinks
16:46 * flussence <marquee>s
16:47 * masak makes sure his spacer gifs are ok
16:47 flussence masak: I tried to ask before but I think it got lost; should indent collapse spaces to tabs as well as expanding them?
16:47 arnsholt masak: Oh, how I wish I had +o now so I could kick you ;)
16:48 masak arnsholt: 哈哈
16:48 masak flussence: could you give a concrete example? my brain feels really small right now.
16:49 flussence "\t\t".indent(-1).indent(1) eq "\t\t", or "\t        "?
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16:52 masak I think the spec is clear on that already.
16:52 masak the latter.
16:52 flussence that makes it easier :)
16:52 masak flussence: can you motivate the former from S32/Str? if so, then we need to strict it up a bit.
16:53 flussence mainly the "consistent with existing whitespace on the line", but I guess the "added" part rules out collapsing spaces.
16:54 * masak reads S32/Str
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16:57 masak right. since the line has both a tab character and spaces, at that point, spaces are added.
16:57 arnsholt How hard would it be to get Perl6MultiSub to dump the signature the candidates are being matched against when MMD fails?
16:57 masak though we do have a problem in that it says that the spaces are added "after each logical newline". they're not -- they're added at the end of the indent.
16:58 masak arnsholt: doesn't it do that already?
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16:58 arnsholt Only the sigs of the candidates
16:58 arnsholt Not the type-signature of the arglist
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16:59 masak oh! right.
16:59 masak yes, I've been wanting that, too.
16:59 arnsholt Which would be helpful right now, since I've no idea why my MMD fails =)
17:00 arnsholt I'm looking at src/pmc/perl6multisub.pmc but it's not exactly a simple piece of code to dive into
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17:04 jnthn It's simpler with beer.
17:04 jnthn ;)
17:04 arnsholt I can imagine ^^
17:04 arnsholt If you don't mind, I'll poke you for some guidance about it at some later date
17:05 arnsholt Right now I have to go
17:05 jnthn arnsholt: Sure :)
17:06 arnsholt Cool
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17:32 StylusEater_work Su-Shee: thanks for inspiring me to brush up on perl
17:33 GinoMan_ joined #perl6
17:33 Su-Shee \o/ :)
17:34 tadzik Su-Shee++
17:34 GinoMan left #perl6
17:34 tadzik Su-Shee: where did you find the blogpost, ooc?
17:35 molaf_ left #perl6
17:35 Su-Shee tadzik: which blogpost?
17:35 cjk101010 left #perl6
17:35 tadzik bah, that was supposed to be for StylusEater_work
17:36 kaare_ joined #perl6
17:36 StylusEater_work tadzik: HN
17:37 StylusEater_work tadzik: ooc? I found it on HackerNews (y combinator).
17:37 tadzik StylusEater_work: "out of curiosity" I meant
17:38 bacek joined #perl6
17:38 StylusEater_work tadzik: sorry, bit rusty. :-)
17:39 Su-Shee StylusEater_work: so, how much brushing up do you need? ;)
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17:41 takadonet Layla_91: hey
17:41 Layla_91 takadonet: helo! :D
17:42 tadzik hey Layla_91
17:43 Layla_91 tadzik: hey! :D I feel I am becoming famous here! :D
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17:44 Layla_91 tadzik: I am preparing few notes and questions about classes.. but first I must have dinner or mom will kill me! :P :D Will be back very soon :)
17:49 tadzik :)
17:49 tadzik bah, Perl 6 has a 'get' sub
17:49 tadzik Dancer is not gonna be Dancer anymore :(
17:50 tadzik or is there a way to "cover" the existing one?
17:50 Su-Shee overriding it? :)
17:50 flussence more-specific signature?
17:50 tadzik sub get(Pair $x) is export {
17:50 flussence that's how mkdir(:p) works...
17:50 StylusEater_work tadzik: subclass and override it
17:50 tadzik StylusEater_work: subclass what?
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17:51 tadzik flussence: hmm, right. Even I'm the one who wrote File::Mkdir :)
17:51 StylusEater_work tadzik: can't you write a class that extends the base class where get is located ... then define a get subroutine in your class?
17:51 tadzik StylusEater_work: it's a sub in Perl6, not a method
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17:52 colomon it's a method too, of course.
17:52 colomon rakudo: say $*IN.get
17:52 tadzik hmm, is export is not working as I expected
17:52 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Land der Berge, Land am Strome,␤»
17:53 tadzik rakudo: say &get.WHAT
17:53 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Multi()␤»
17:53 tadzik oh, a multi? No problem then
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17:56 tadzik rakudo: my $a = sub { "asd" }; say $a()
17:56 p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«asd␤»
17:56 tadzik hrm
17:56 kaare_ left #perl6
17:56 tadzik oh
17:59 tadzik Perl 6, I have something interesting for ya :)
17:59 tadzik http://wklej.org/id/454346/
17:59 tadzik what does it look like?
18:00 Su-Shee like a method based web framework and not a restful one ;)
18:00 tadzik http://perldancer.org/
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18:01 Su-Shee I know. :)
18:01 tadzik but! It's not Perl 5
18:02 saaki sinatra?
18:02 tadzik not quite :)
18:02 moritz_ looks like Mojolicious
18:02 moritz_ (::Lite)
18:02 Su-Shee they all look like sainatra :)
18:02 tadzik It's a minimal implementation of Dancer in Perl 6
18:03 tadzik http://wklej.org/id/454352/
18:03 Su-Shee nice!
18:03 takadonet nicely done
18:03 * tadzik is preparing a blogopost, another one in a "look, it's awesome" fasion
18:04 colomon \o/
18:04 tadzik now the fun is, it's ~~
18:04 Su-Shee (what have I done.. ;)
18:04 tadzik it's the freakin ~~, so Junctions, Regexes, bla bla bla
18:04 tadzik Su-Shee: not you ;) I did this a few times before, see my grammar dispatching posts
18:05 * moritz_ wants postfix:? for argument lists
18:05 tadzik that's what I'm into
18:06 tadzik I think it's doable to parse it, and dynamically create a Redex
18:06 moritz_ so $closure($var?) would mean "supply this variable if the closure accepts it, and if not leave it empty"
18:06 tadzik hmm
18:06 tadzik it's possible?
18:06 tadzik I mean, is it P6?
18:07 jnthn Module. :P
18:08 tadzik hm, sub($x) is forbidden?
18:08 jnthn (And yes, I know, Rakudo doesn't let you write a module to do that just yet.)
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18:09 jnthn moritz_: What's the use case you have for it, ooc?
18:10 moritz_ jnthn: I thought about tadzik's dispatch example, and I thought that   get rx{^'/id/' (\d+)} => sub($/) { say $/ }   could avoid re-matching
18:10 tadzik $/ is what I'm working on atm
18:11 moritz_ jnthn: and then I thought about writing the dispatcher, and that it certainly shouldn't force the user to accept a positional in the signature
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18:11 moritz_ jnthn: so it would be nice to call it $callback($/?) # yay, line noise!
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18:12 jnthn :P
18:12 jnthn moritz_: I worry about about sticking more complexity into calling, tbh. It's a hot path that's already got plenty to do.
18:13 moritz_ jnthn: fwiw it wasn't a well thought-out proposal, just a whim
18:13 moritz_ jnthn: more p6l-ish throwing around ideas :-)
18:13 jnthn moritz_: You could always implement a helper to do something like this too.
18:13 tadzik how to get The Positional Parameters Mathed from $/?
18:13 jnthn Using introspection. :)
18:13 jnthn Apart from introspection is bad. ;)
18:14 jnthn The interaction wiht multis probably gets fun too. ;)
18:14 moritz_ tadzik: do you mean the positional captures?
18:14 tadzik moritz_: si
18:14 jnthn $/.list
18:14 jnthn Or I guess @$/ does that...yay line noise! :)
18:15 moritz_ @$/ is NYI - would need to be @($/)
18:15 jnthn Ah
18:15 tadzik :[
18:15 tadzik hmm, something fails
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18:18 tadzik http://wklej.org/id/454360/ -- could you take a look? Visiting /foofoo says "regexes! I got foofoo"
18:18 tadzik so it's the whole string, not the mathed part
18:20 moritz_ because you pass in $/, and not $/.list
18:20 moritz_ or |$/.list
18:20 moritz_ what about  |($/.list, $/.hash)
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18:21 tadzik oh, right
18:21 tadzik |$/.list
18:22 tadzik LOL PERL IS SO UGLY!!!!11
18:22 dukeleto tadzik: I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER ALL THE PUNCTUATION
18:25 tadzik moritz_: there is $/.hash?
18:25 tadzik Method 'hash' not found for invocant of class ''
18:26 StylusEater_work tadzik: seems weird to want to respond to /foo(.+)/ ...
18:27 tadzik StylusEater_work: why?
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18:28 Su-Shee shouldn't in perl 6 a router aka url parser be based on a url grammar...? :)
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18:31 StylusEater_work tadzik: I'd imagine you'd want something more concrete... an actual resource /get/record/1 /upload/record/1 ... etc.
18:32 StylusEater_work tadzik: if you want to do something like foo(.+) ... why not implement a default handler that will parse the values for you as opposed to have the routes defined with wildcards?
18:32 StylusEater_work tadzik: I guess it's just a matter of style.
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18:37 tadzik StylusEater_work: that's a matter of me not porting it yet :)
18:37 tadzik StylusEater_work: that'd be /get/:what/:id/ in Dancer
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18:44 sorear good * #perl6
18:44 phenny sorear: 11:28Z <snarkyboojum> tell sorear since commit 4365d61 my system can't build Niecza
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18:47 diakopter ohi
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18:50 dalek niecza: f5e81fb | sorear++ | Niecza.proj:
18:50 dalek niecza: Revert "Use wildcart dependencies in build system"
18:50 dalek niecza:
18:50 dalek niecza: This "cosmetic" change broke snarkyboojum's build.
18:50 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/f5e81fb4d0
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18:54 PerlJam tadzik++ dancer in perl 6 -- awesome!  :)
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18:57 tadzik loliblogged! http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/bailamos/
18:58 moritz_ tadzik++
19:00 tadzik I'm just advertising it between Dancer people. They attitude towards Perl 6 was usually "well, mberends is writing the port, right?"
19:00 tadzik maybe that will poke them a bit :)
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19:08 dalek sprixel: 6b30134 | diakopter++ | / (16 files):
19:08 dalek sprixel: generic types instantiated with in-progress custom types.  <relief/>
19:08 dalek sprixel: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/sprixel/commit/6b30134462
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19:26 Layla_91 helo to all! :)
19:26 tadzik hi
19:26 TimToady howdy doo
19:27 diakopter dy
19:27 Layla_91 tadzik: I am a little confused by the class example.. (though it is funny :)).. I have a couple of questions about it.. if you want I can paste the example code somewhere before asking so you can look it up quickly..
19:29 StylusEater_work who do I talk to about a failed post through 'make spectest_smolder'
19:29 moritz_ StylusEater_work: to us :-)
19:29 moritz_ StylusEater_work: what error do you get?
19:29 StylusEater_work curl: (26) failed creating formpost data
19:29 TimToady .oO(some of us are more ussy than others of us)
19:29 StylusEater_work ... ./perl6 -e "run qqx[git log -1 --pretty=format:%H].fmt(qq[curl -F architecture=i386 -F platform=linux -F revision=%s -F report_file=@rakudo_test_run.tar.gz -F username=parrot-autobot -F password=qa_rocks http://smolder.parrot.org/app/​projects/process_add_report/5])"
19:29 flussence same here
19:30 moritz_ StylusEater_work: do you have TAP::Harness::Archive installed? (see README)
19:30 tadzik Layla_91: go on, I'm not the only one :
19:30 tadzik :)
19:30 StylusEater_work moritz_: doh!!!
19:30 flussence Oh, I was running it on my laptop, that'd explain the failure
19:30 StylusEater_work moritz_: thought I might have forgot something in the rakudo readme
19:31 moritz_ StylusEater_work: we need better diagnostics from the harness though
19:33 * moritz_ has a patch, but can't test it right now
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19:33 Layla_91 What exactly does bless method does, for example in "return self.bless(*, :&callback, :@dependencies);" how could we fix the code if there was no bless ?
19:34 StylusEater_work moritz_: do we keep previous runs?
19:34 TimToady .oO(no bless oblige...)
19:34 StylusEater_work Layla_91: http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/bless.html
19:35 TimToady <moritz_> @array[^2]:delete
19:35 TimToady that does not do the same as a splice, if we follow P5 semantics on array delete
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19:36 Layla_91 oh it is in perl5 too.. I guess that is why I am the only one not understanding it :D
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19:37 lichtkind why does succ in Bool context returns true?
19:37 lichtkind http://perlcabal.org/syn/S32/Numeric.html#Bool
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19:39 TimToady lichtkind: see S03:540
19:40 Layla_91 I keep seeing callback method in class examples.. where can I find what it does?
19:42 StylusEater_work Layla_91: I believe it returns the reference to the caller in the call graph.
19:43 StylusEater_work flussence: is try.rakudo.org not working atm?
19:43 StylusEater_work flussence: or maybe it's chrome on osx that's not working properly
19:43 TimToady pmurias: a litte "roast" is a "toast"
19:44 flussence working for me...
19:44 Su-Shee StylusEater_work: works for me as well. (FF, Linux)
19:44 flussence JS turned on?
19:45 Layla_91 StylusEater_work: I just understood it.. I have to say the examples are a little complex in the perl6 tutorial.. or maybe It's just me.. :S
19:45 tadzik wfm too
19:46 Su-Shee Layla_91: in which tutorial?
19:46 Layla_91 Su-Shee: Learning perl6
19:46 Layla_91 Su-Shee: I have no experience with perl5.. maybe that is the reason..
19:46 sorear Is there a standard Perl6 getopt_long module?
19:46 PerlJam sorear: MAIN  :)
19:47 Su-Shee Layla_91: URL?
19:48 sorear MAIN is less powerful than getopt_long, and in any case needs to be built on *something*
19:48 Layla_91 Su-Shee: ops it is using perl6 not learning perl6 :D https://github.com/perl6/book/downloads..
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19:50 * TimToady has a profound antipathy toward any module named getopt*, having seen far too many of them in his life...
19:50 StylusEater_work flussence: all I see is the -> (white arrow) ... if I type help and press "Send" I see nothing ... maybe I'm not using it properly.. user error... :-)
19:50 Su-Shee oh my.. ;) Layla_91: Look into real code how they do it and copy it or ask about that. ;)
19:50 StylusEater_work TimToady: prefers ... getover* :-)
19:51 flussence StylusEater_work: "help" displays the message at the bottom that's already there when you load the page
19:51 PerlJam sorear: how is MAIN less powerful?
19:52 flussence try "1" or something in the command line, should echo it back
19:52 StylusEater_work print "Hello."; works... so it was user error. :-)
19:52 TimToady PerlJam: it's not as overdesigned :)
19:52 flussence I guess it should scroll on typing help or something... at least give some visible reaction
19:53 StylusEater_work flussence: it is neat btw. good work.
19:53 sorear PerlJam: no ability to say :!permute
19:53 flussence heh, most of the work wasn't me. I just got the tutorial stuff working :)
19:53 PerlJam The only thing I can think of right off is that thing where options are additive.
19:54 flussence (which needs more content...)
19:54 Layla_91 Su-Shee: mmm.. sorry my english is not too good :D you mean I should copy others code?! :S
19:55 Su-Shee Layla_91: yes, of course. that's how you learn. take a class of an existing perl 6 project and make it work for you and change stuff.
19:55 StylusEater_work Layla_91: read others code and improve upon existing code.  It's open source so you're not stealing if you follow the license.
19:56 PerlJam sorear: --permute=0 doesn't work?
19:57 * sorear just wants to clone GNU getopt_long; Getopt::Long and MAIN both irritate me
19:57 PerlJam okay
19:57 sorear PerlJam: No, because that's a command line argument
19:57 TimToady S06:3280 give :! syntax
19:57 sorear I want a way to control the option parser itself
19:57 diakopter heh
19:58 TimToady fine, you can always write your own module
19:58 Layla_91 Su-Shee, StylusEater_work: mmm.. I agree :) actually it is time to download some perl6 exmaples from the web.(If exists!) :D
19:58 diakopter is the option parser a Grammar?
19:58 TimToady that's why we give access to @*ARGS all the way through the mainline
19:58 TimToady MAIN is only called at the end
19:58 sorear Well I *need* to write a module because nobody has given me something reusable
19:58 diakopter there must not be a Grammar for MAIN's parsing
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19:59 TimToady I don't understand what you think is missing
19:59 TimToady eventually signatures will support parsing of lists
19:59 TimToady as in grammar based
19:59 * diakopter keeps suggesting an "official" Grammar... (if there isn't one already)
20:00 flussence (if you implement NativeCall, you could just reuse the existing getopt_long... :)
20:00 sorear Rakudo's src/core/MAIN.pm has the Parrot-specific introspection and the parsing intertwined
20:00 sorear I can't reuse it
20:01 TimToady that's a rakudo problem
20:01 TimToady not necessarily a Perl 6 problem
20:01 jnthn From a Rakudo perspective, it's probably not even really a problem. Gotta interop with the VM somewhere. :)
20:02 TimToady sorear: define "reuse"
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20:02 sorear TimToady: use it to support argument parsing in niecza
20:03 TimToady just use your own multiple dispatch implementation
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20:04 TimToady oh, you're talking about the translator
20:05 TimToady it's not clear to me why the translator would need introspection
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20:05 Layla_91 I got examples from https://github.com/eric256/perl6-examples/ all the games not working on my laptop :(
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20:06 masak in a method, 'self' accesses the invocant. how would I access the invocant of the class my nested class is inside?
20:06 TimToady everything in the translator ought to be data driven
20:06 TimToady masak: what makes you think you have one?
20:07 TimToady it's a different class, with its own objets
20:07 * TimToady typos french...
20:07 * jnthn finds masak's question odd in that sense too
20:07 masak maybe it doesn't make sense, true.
20:08 tadzik Layla_91: most of the examples are not working I'm afraid
20:08 flussence tell it to pass that into the inner object?
20:08 jnthn I suspect there may be some Java-think here. I think there, a nested class does have some kinda relationship with the outer one in that way.
20:08 TimToady we all don't make sense from time to time... :)
20:08 masak flussence: that might be an option, yes.
20:08 jnthn But I mostly found it confusing. :)
20:08 Layla_91 tadzik: where else can I find working perl6 code examples?!
20:08 tadzik Layla_91: you may want to look into some of the existing modules, see modules.perl6.org
20:08 masak jnthn: in Java, the syntax would be C<Outerclass.this>
20:08 Su-Shee Layla_91: in the module's list. also, just write your own stuff and ask.
20:08 PerlJam Layla_91: perl6advent.wordpress.com
20:08 masak jnthn: and yes, that's what made me think about it.
20:09 jnthn masak: ah, OK, so I'm not crazy rusty. :)
20:09 jnthn masak: I still seem to remember if confusing me though. :)
20:09 PerlJam Layla_91: http://perl6.org/documentation/ has lots of links
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20:09 TimToady Layla_91: did anyone send you to http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Perl_6 ?  Those are all working examples, supposedly.
20:10 TimToady and there's 254 of 'em currently
20:10 Layla_91 TimToady: awsome! ^_^
20:11 TimToady We aim to please, when we aim at all...
20:11 moritz_ https://gist.github.com/773366 <-- new debugging stuff :-) I think it was tadzik++ who proposed it originally
20:11 tadzik did I?
20:11 ashleydev left #perl6
20:11 tadzik moritz_++ # awesome
20:12 moritz_ or was it masak?
20:12 ashleydev joined #perl6
20:12 masak no, tadzik++
20:12 PerlJam whoever++   that's very cool
20:12 masak moritz_: how are you planning to make that publicly usable?
20:12 TimToady is that lexically scoped?
20:12 moritz_ TimToady: it is
20:13 moritz_ at least I think so
20:13 TimToady coolness
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20:13 moritz_ yes, it is
20:13 moritz_ just tested it
20:13 flussence random idea: allow specifying a file descriptor other than std* for it to print to, so it can be piped into other programs
20:13 tadzik http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/20​11/01/10/bailamos/#comment-46 -- may I have some feedback on this one?
20:14 masak oh, now I see; it's the 'use STATEMENT_PRINT;' that does it. :)
20:14 tadzik I know how to answer that, but I don't want to do it semi-correctly :)
20:14 masak moritz_: why not 'use Statement::Print;'?
20:14 moritz_ masak: because I suck at naming :-)
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20:14 flussence tadzik: it's like xargs on a commandline, but with a pipe character, and right-to-left
20:14 masak moritz_: also, suggestion -- hide the printing of 'use STATEMENT_PRINT;' :)
20:14 tadzik flussence: that's the "my own words" version :)
20:14 masak it doesn't add anything.
20:15 moritz_ masak: it adds simplicity on the implementation side
20:15 tadzik and it may be useful if you accidentally (or not) import this twice, no?
20:16 masak moritz_: I won't press it. just felt a bit unnecessary.
20:16 TimToady 'set -x' is shorter  :(
20:16 Su-Shee tadzik: well answer what the pipe does? :)
20:17 moritz_ is there a general consensus that I should push it to master?
20:17 sorear I propose Devel::Trace
20:17 moritz_ sorear: I like that
20:17 sorear moritz_: does it have any impact when disabled?
20:17 tadzik Su-Shee: I think it'd be nice in a spec-speak :)
20:18 Su-Shee in a what? :)
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20:18 moritz_ sorear: one dynamic variable per compilation unit, one executed 'if' per statement at compile time
20:18 rindolf Hi all.
20:18 moritz_ both at compile time, that is
20:18 sorear hello rindolf
20:18 tadzik rindolf: o/
20:18 moritz_ ie not much
20:19 rindolf sorear, tadzik : what's up?
20:19 tadzik rindolf: seen my blag toast? :)
20:19 rindolf tadzik: no.
20:19 rindolf not yet
20:19 rindolf What is a "blag'?
20:19 tadzik http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/bailamos/
20:19 tadzik it's a funny blog
20:19 rindolf Ah.
20:19 tadzik ;)
20:20 lichtkind TimToady: thank  you
20:20 masak I think my blog is too serious to be a blag.
20:20 rindolf tadzik: ah.
20:20 rindolf tadzik: interesting.
20:21 rindolf tadzik: it would be neater if rakudo had macros.
20:21 rindolf I mean the syntax would be.
20:21 tadzik rindolf: what would you change?
20:22 rindolf tadzik: well, I would do something like get /foo(.+)/ { }
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20:23 rindolf Without the => and the sub.
20:23 rindolf Can't the "sub" keyword be omitted already?
20:23 rindolf You can also use named captures.
20:23 tadzik rindolf: interesting question
20:23 tadzik yeah, I know about those
20:24 masak in 'get /foo(.+)/ { }', you definitely run into TTIAR.
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20:24 masak which is why macros would be needed, I guess.
20:24 TimToady but not if you parse it as a statement control
20:24 masak right.
20:24 masak s/get/if/ and it would be legal.
20:24 tadzik :)
20:25 masak so either macros or sufficient control over the active parser rules :)
20:25 tadzik that's closer and closer to when
20:25 TimToady or s/get/when/ and it's even a smartmatch
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20:26 masak one could probably do a few nice tricks already today, passing in a block of when clauses to a function.
20:26 TimToady but yeah, eventually we'll have real macros that can emulate any builtin syntactic category
20:27 TimToady s/emulate/add to/
20:27 TimToady currently niecza is closest to having real macros, since transitive LTM is a requirement
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20:29 sorear I thought pugs already had them
20:29 moritz_ notreally
20:29 moritz_ you could write 'macro foo($x) { $x * 2 }', but to the best of my knowledge it was faked at run time
20:30 moritz_ at least nobody ever showed some awesome macro magic with it :-)
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20:30 TimToady macros were the *last* think on the pugs roadmap
20:30 * moritz_ -> early sleep
20:30 TimToady *ng
20:31 TimToady enjoy it while you can :)
20:31 dalek rakudo: 33788e8 | moritz++ | t/harness:
20:31 dalek rakudo: die on spectest_smolder if TAP::Harness::Archive cannot be loaded
20:31 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/33788e8a43
20:31 dalek rakudo: ca62f23 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
20:31 dalek rakudo: non-spec Devel::Trace pragma that prints statements before executing them
20:31 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ca62f23341
20:31 moritz_ :-)
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20:34 sorear TimToady: Does that mean pugs is complete?
20:34 sorear :)
20:35 * sorear wants something like if EXPR -> $v { ... }, but checking defined() instead of so()
20:35 tadzik no, but yapsi is :)
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20:36 TimToady sorear: andthen is something like that
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20:37 TimToady see S03:2464
20:38 TimToady in fact, it was original postulated as a way to write the STD engine more hapily
20:38 TimToady *pp
20:40 sorear The most irritatingly subtle incompatibility between Perl 6 and Perl 5 for what I've done so far is the truth value of []
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20:41 TimToady well, all references are true in P5, which was a mistake
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20:52 masak sorear: au/Pugs never got to macros :/
20:52 masak kinda stalled on the OO step.
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21:04 tadzik Devel::Trace! \o/
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21:08 sorear masak: I thought I saw someone demo a pugs macro once
21:08 sorear nevermind
21:08 sorear the other interesting question is
21:09 sorear "Does the existance of macros require all Perl 6 implementations to use an object oriented PEG/LTM engine for parsing input?"
21:09 sorear is it possible to construct, say, a C Perl6 which uses yacc?
21:10 TimToady PEG/LTM is a requirement for Perl 6
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21:12 masak the common API that macros would run on top of is underspec'd, but that's more or less to be expected at this point, with no implementations having macros...
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21:16 masak is the NEXT phaser executed the last iteration through a loop?
21:16 masak assuming that iteration exits normally.
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21:17 pmurias sorear: how are classes  represented in NAM?
21:18 TimToady masak: see S04:1420
21:18 TimToady so the answer is "yes"
21:19 masak ok.
21:19 TimToady and "last" is considered abnormal
21:19 TimToady NEXT is basically the same as P5's continue {}
21:20 TimToady so it can do the "increment" before the loop's "while" test
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21:25 sorear pmurias: the xref pool contains an object of the form ["class",name,package_install_slots,​attributes,methods,superclasses,mro]
21:27 pmurias thanks, i was viewing a mangled form of the xref pool so i didn't notice that
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21:41 Tene I did have macros working on an nqp-rx language before, as a prototype.  It wouldn't have been too much more to make them lexically-scoped, etc.
21:41 masak what's the simplest way to use phasers (or something else) to execute something between iterations of a loop, such as adding a separator between list items?
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21:41 Tene It's definitely doable on rakudo, just a SMOP
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21:41 masak Tene: what can the rest of us do to help you in this endeavour?
21:42 masak (aka "want. macros. now.")
21:42 Tene masak: seeing as I haven't actually worked on it in about a year... any "help" would be "do all of it"
21:42 masak noted.
21:48 StylusEater_work left #perl6
21:51 masak seen this? http://everythingsysadmin.com/2011/​01/python-is-better-than-perl6.html
21:51 aloha Sorry, I haven't seen this? http://everythingsysadmin.com/2011/​01/python-is-better-than-perl6.html.
21:52 masak aloha: ssh!
21:52 masak perlbuzz tweeted it a few hours back.
21:52 Tene masak: fwiw, I rather miss working on that sort of project, so if you have any ideas about motivating me, please feel free to try whatever you like.
21:52 alester I think Tom makes some swell points.
21:53 alester esp. from the POV of someone who's forced to use the snake.
21:53 mkramer1 despite the title, he hasn't mentioned he likes about python  that perl6 doesn't have (specced)
21:53 mkramer1 *what he
21:54 alester I think the biggie is "it exists."
21:54 alester (For his value of "exists")
21:54 masak right. probably not productive to tell this kind of blogger that Perl 6 does "ship".
21:54 mkramer1 Then he should have said that, it's misleading to title your post that way and then spend the rest of the article writing about why python is better than perl 5
21:55 alester Don't discount Tom Limoncelli as "this kind of blogger".
21:55 alester He's no dummy, and he's highly respected.
21:55 masak I didn't mean it derogatorily.
21:55 alester For his purposes, Perl 6 doesn't ship.
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21:55 masak I meant that he actually has a criterion, and is not just bashing Perl 6.
21:56 masak he has a slightly clumsy way of saying it, but then again, which outsider doesn't?
21:56 sorear alester: do you know anything about the rakudo.org banning epidemic?
21:56 masak I'd consider such a blog post to be bad PR for Perl 6 (in the drops-on-stone sense), and there's no easy way to counteract it, besides working on Perl 6.
21:57 Tene I understood "this kind of blogger" in that context to mean "a well-informed blogger who knows what he's talking about"
21:58 masak something like that. better informed than just cargo-culting twitter or reddit people, at least.
21:59 Tene Seems like most of the post is talking about Perl 5, though.
21:59 Tene Which is valid, just makes the title a bit odd.
21:59 masak someone saying "Perl 6 doesn't ship" is liable to trigger an automatic reaction in me no matter what.
21:59 cognominal *welcome
22:00 masak cognominal: sorry, what?
22:00 jnthn cognominal: wrong window
22:00 jnthn :)
22:01 alester sorear: Yes.
22:01 masak welcome, cognominal, to the Wrong Window :)
22:01 mkramer1 Tene: that's what I thought when I read it.  He ennumerates ten features that he likes about Python, nine of which  Perl6 also has, the one exception being 7, "no interpolation of strings"
22:01 mkramer1 also, I didn't see clear criteria for "shipping" anywhere
22:01 kaare__ left #perl6
22:02 gfldex he tries to justify to himself why he is using python in a public place
22:02 cognominal wrong window indeed.
22:02 gfldex most blogs are used in that way tho :->
22:02 masak there can't be clear criteria, since Perl 6 is shipping, and has been for years.
22:02 cognominal but you are welcome anyway
22:02 masak cognominal: thanks -- you too :)
22:02 sorear alester: Out of curiousity, what's causing it?
22:03 alester I banned about 20 Class A's a week ago.
22:03 alester And have since removed them.
22:03 alester masak: "Shipping" according to you.
22:04 sorear alester: Several people have reported getting a "banned" error page from their normal computer, but being able to access from others in the same class C
22:04 sorear alester: among them: lopaway, coldhead
22:04 MayDaniel left #perl6
22:04 Tene Personally, this is the definition of "shipping" that I'd like to see used in these discussions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_%28fandom%29
22:04 masak Tene++ :P
22:05 masak alester: now, "shipping" is an objective thing. it's whether we share what we have with others.
22:05 masak alester: Rakudo has an open github repository, it has monthly releases, it has release announcements.
22:06 masak alester: saying that it *isn't* shipping after that is... not a matter of subjective opinion.
22:06 masak in my opinion :)
22:06 Tene If the actual product being shipped doesn't meet your needs, that's a completely valid and accurate complaint, but there's a different word for that.
22:06 masak yes.
22:07 masak "inadequate".
22:07 Tene When rakudo star is distributed by my linux distro, it's pretty hard to argue that it hasn't "shipped".
22:07 masak but note the *huge* difference between "Perl 6 doesn't exist/ship" and "Perl 6 is inadequate for my needs"
22:08 alester sorear: Yes, and I said I have since removed them.
22:09 alester masak: I think that defending Perl 6 by saying "Look, it's shipping, for some value of shipping that happens to not be yours" is a waste of time.
22:09 masak alester: I generally manage to convince people that Perl 6 is shipping, though.
22:10 alester Arguing over word choice is masturbatory.  The key is, to many people, Perl 6 is not "done" enough.  That's why I put the post out there.
22:10 masak I'm not really arguing over word choice.
22:10 masak but I agree with your general feeling about the post.
22:10 masak I like that you posted it.
22:11 alester sorear: Are your questions adequately answered?
22:11 masak s/posted/tweeted/
22:12 Tene alester: I think that an important part of any improvement process is making sure we have an *accurate* view of our deficiencies.  I don't know that I've ever seen anyone here assert that there are no problems at all with Rakudo, or assert that because we've published a release, no other problems matter.
22:13 Tene If someone accuses me of being a slacker at work and of kicking puppies, I'm going to acknowledge the correct accusation and refute the inaccurate claim.
22:13 masak I haven't found telling people that Rakudo has releases to be masturbatory. about a third of those people have genuinely grateful/interested reactions.
22:13 sorear alester: yes
22:13 Tene Hmm.
22:14 alester Tene: I think that we pretend that we know our deficiencies.
22:14 diakopter those poor puppies
22:14 alester When people say "Perl 6 doesn't exist" we get all frothy and say "Yes it does! Yes it does!"
22:14 alester instead of acknowledging that to THAT PERSON and, indeed, the vast majority of the computing world, it does NOT.
22:15 diakopter (as they define "exist")
22:15 alester Right.
22:15 TimToady what does acknowledging that gain us?
22:15 Tene erlang isn't currently useful to me; in what meaningful sense could I then claim that erlang doesn't exist?
22:15 alester which is what matters.
22:16 alester Customer walks into Blockbuster (clearly this is years ago)
22:16 alester Customer doesn't find movie customer wants
22:16 TimToady our intent is to educate them, not coddle them
22:16 alester Customer says "This store doesn't have anything!"
22:16 alester Clerk can say "Yes we do!  Yes we do!"
22:16 diakopter !addquote < masak> I haven't found telling people that Rakudo has releases to be masturbatory.
22:16 alester but why?
22:16 masak diakopter: :P
22:17 TimToady I fail to see how your analogy helps us.
22:18 alester I feel like we are in the position of the clerk.
22:18 TimToady I fail to see how your analogy helps us.
22:18 alester Telling the customer "We have stuff!" It's just not what they want.
22:18 TimToady I fail to see how your analogy helps us.
22:18 alester Telling the customer "Your defintino sucks" doesn't help.
22:18 spq1 left #perl6
22:18 TimToady I fail to see how your analogy helps us.
22:18 masak under the clerk analogy, I like to show the customer our selection of films.
22:18 alester OK, Larry, I'll shut up.
22:19 masak that's what I usually tend to work towards. showing stuff.
22:19 masak it's extremely difficult for someone to claim that a thing that just produced a cool thing doesn't exist.
22:20 Tene alester: What would you like us to say?
22:20 alester "I know we don't have everything you want, and I'm sorry we're not there yet.  Let us show what we do have."
22:20 alester But we're so focused on "You're wrong!" to the accusations.
22:21 alester I know it's furstrating.
22:21 alester It's frustrating when people tell me ack is broken because it doesn't do what they expected.
22:21 alester (for example)
22:21 mkramer1 Well, they're wrong accusations.  If we don't refute them, then we've implicitly confirmed them
22:21 alester mkramer1: So what?
22:21 alester Let THEM decide.
22:21 alester Otherwise it's a fight.
22:21 alester And fighting helps no one.
22:21 TimToady the right people will decide when the time is right
22:22 alester Exactly.
22:22 masak alester: I don't usually get depressed responding to people's mistaken claims about Perl 6. I get depressed trying to align to what you're saying now.
22:22 alester why?
22:23 masak let me try to analyze it for a minute or so.
22:23 TimToady we all know the wave is building, the only question is when we want people to notice; I am personally in favor of a slow build over a fast splash
22:23 alester TimToady: I can agree with that.
22:23 alester s/can/do/
22:24 masak alester: hm. because I think many people are blocking themselves from even *seeing* Perl 6 by cargo-culting the meme that it doesn't exist, or hasn't arrived yet.
22:24 alester masak: OK, but that's not a you problem.
22:24 masak not sure I know what that means.
22:24 alester You don't have to own that problem.
22:24 masak of couse not.
22:25 masak Twitter is all about exchanging views with people.
22:25 masak so is Reddit. so is HN.
22:25 TimToady when people see continuums as either-or, that's a problem that prevents communication
22:25 alester And, in general, I think that our time is better spent writing code/toolchain/modules/whatever that serves the whole, rather than convincing a single person.
22:25 TimToady we're all very much trying to argue that there's a continuum, so naturally react against black/white arguments
22:25 Tene I don't think those are exclusive tasks.
22:25 alester TimToady: Yes, black/white thinking can be a problem.  And it's not a problem we are going to solve.
22:26 masak alester: I think I would be depressed if my *main* occupation was to try to convince people like that.
22:26 alester Tene: Can you write code at the same time you're arguing on reddit?
22:26 TimToady the only way to solve black/white problems is to let people continue to be ignorant, eh?
22:26 sbp you could write code to argue for you on reddit
22:26 alester Do you have a way to stop them from being so?
22:26 dalek niecza: dff8b2f | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
22:26 dalek niecza: [v6] Add an option parser, command-line interface
22:26 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/dff8b2fd0b
22:26 sbp some kind of markov chain...
22:26 Tene alester: No, but there *are* times that I can argue on reddit when I can't or am otherwise disinclined to write code.
22:26 TimToady alester: several ways
22:26 masak alester: I feel I have helped people see the light. are you saying that was a mistaken feeling?
22:27 Tene alester: Similarly, there are plenty of times when I'm inclined to write code and disinclined to argue on reddit.
22:27 alester masak: No
22:27 TimToady some of them respond to talking, and others only respons to "show me the code"
22:27 TimToady some of them will never respond
22:27 TimToady people have different learning styles, and you can't assume only one way is the right way to teach 'em
22:27 alester I just think there's more bang/buck in code/blogging/creation-of-something than there is in arguing the wrong.
22:27 alester That's all.
22:27 masak some of them are in it for the trolling. but those are few and far between.
22:28 TimToady we can't know which they are unless we push back a bit
22:28 masak most are genuinely misinformed.
22:28 sbp I was thinking that as long as perl6 is a bunch of useful things for making other useful things, the education side won't matter (roughly, build and they will come). but then I thought about how Javascript coding practices have changed over the past ten years, not due to the language changing but due to education and slow evolution and creativity in usage patterns
22:28 alester my $troll =~ ($comment =~ m/Duke Nuk/);
22:28 alester One other suggestion:
22:28 alester That I am trying to do
22:28 alester when I see people say something wrong
22:28 alester think something incorrect
22:28 sbp so I wonder: how many of the people who are "yet to be convinced" about perl6 are going to also be those who help with the education and slow evolution / creativity in usage patterns?
22:29 masak most Duke Nukem people are of the misinformed kind, not of the real-troll kind.
22:29 alester I'm trying to blog about it, BEFORE replying in the thread,
22:29 alester and THEN point the person to it.
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22:29 alester So that the energy I place into replying to a single person, or single thread on a board, is directed for the world to see.
22:29 sbp because the underlying constructive element, the language, the implementations, and the libraries are being built. so how many of those people who, apparently though I don't entirely follow the conversation, sorely need to be convinced or undeluded will contribute to those extra factors?
22:29 mkramer1 Hey, speaking of Duke Nukem, didja hear that the project has got more funding recently? :D
22:30 TimToady alester: I think that scales well for some forums, but irc is more immediate, and they'll wander off before you get anything written here
22:30 TimToady but I admire the attempt at knowledge capture
22:30 alester True.
22:31 masak me too. alester++
22:31 alester In a larger scale, I think that message boards fall into False Importance.
22:31 * diakopter bugs eyes at TimToady corpspeak
22:31 alester Just because it's said in business doesn't make it invalid.
22:32 diakopter I don't think all (any?) corpspeak is invalid :P
22:32 TimToady well, we need leverage on all different scales :)
22:32 sbp anyone? outstanding question in the wash above
22:33 diakopter mkramer1's? ;)
22:33 masak sbp: tl;dr :)
22:33 sbp verbosity doesn't translate to buoyancy? :-)
22:33 TimToady sbp: some not insignificant %
22:33 alester My own Sisyphusian task is getting people to create sensible resumes. :-)
22:33 alester (and buy my book)
22:34 sbp not insignificant: in the way that every individual is not insignificant in the grand scheme, or...? :-)
22:34 TimToady I mean that some portion of the new talent we will recruit over the next year will be "converts" from oversimpified views of reality
22:35 masak fwiw, I agree with alester that most of those converts will be through cool code, not through active refutation of their views.
22:35 TimToady there are a lot of people who think of Perl 6 as a "yes/no" question who will see what we've been doing and realize they can be a part of the transition from "no" to "yes".
22:36 TimToady this will get more true as we put more real stuff out there
22:36 alester Pretty much everyone in the "Perl 6 doesn't exist yet" camp are from Missouri.
22:36 TimToady this is why I've been hacking so hard on rosettacode, for instance
22:36 Tene alester: Missouri?
22:36 alester "Show me"
22:36 Tene ><
22:36 sbp some. well I imagine that if those some are 10%, that's a very different case to 90%. the flexibility of perl6, the utter metameta of it, should mean that there will be more of a slide over time as new things are bootstrapped on top of the language than in most other languages
22:36 alester sorry, for the non-US folks.
22:36 masak I got it once you explained it.
22:37 alester http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/history/slogan.asp
22:37 sbp one of the things that I really like about (especially) #perl6, but perl6 development in general, is that people get their heads down and just work on things, so the recent spate of concern over PR is interesting to me. I still don't really feel as though I should care
22:37 alester I spent some childhood years in Nebraska, so it's 2nd nautre. :-)
22:37 sbp which is why I'm so curious about the numbers
22:37 masak alester: I disagree; pretty much everyone in the "Perl 6 doesn't exist yet" camp have peers who probably would think it was a nice punchline.
22:38 alester example of what I've been trying to do on reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/resumes/comments/​ez8n6/include_an_objective_or_not/c1c4kb0
22:38 alester re: resumes
22:38 alester Answering the question, while linking to existing message.
22:39 alester Do we even have a page/blog post somewhere that canonically addresses "Perl 6 isn't out yet"?
22:39 edenc alester: while I agree with you about blogging/coding/getting-things-done instead of arguing, if my late, humble opinion counts, there's a human factor to account for, when you've done a lot of work on something and people still bash it cluelesly, it's natural to stop rationalizing about what's the best thing to do, and there's when you can start making mistakes in how you react to things
22:39 alester Because I suspect there's a lot of rework.
22:39 Tene Oh man, resumes.  A friend of mine has been having a lot of trouble findign work lately, and the resume she's using is *exclusively* a list of previous employers and titles.
22:39 alester "when you've done a lot of work on something and people still bash it cluelesly": Yes, I agree, we're all human and it hurts to hear people say our work sucks or is inadequate.
22:40 sbp I'd use https://github.com/rakudo/star/downloads
22:40 alester Tene: Point her to my book and blog http://techworklove.com/
22:40 alester The big thing I'm seeing so much on reddit/resumes is lack of detail.
22:40 GinoMan left #perl6
22:41 edenc I'm working on a perl6 grammar-based dispatch and someone managed to get my ramblings onto hackernews where some clueless person said "congratulations, perl6 is almost like python" and pasted a link to the django regular expression dispatcher
22:42 edenc there's a big conflict, it's hard to decide whether to educate the guy and explain the *big* difference between regexes and grammars or just shut up and go back to work
22:42 alester edenc: I think we put too much stock into re-education of people.
22:42 edenc so I'm always of the opinion of letting whoever's getting something done alone
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22:44 edenc whether he argues a lot like mst or a more reserved guy like larry, leave'em alone :)
22:44 edenc if arguing is pointless, arguing about arguing is less even
22:45 sorear 1. he's right 2. code is good
22:45 sorear Perl 5 has been at the Python level for quite some time - Perl 6 is catching up
22:46 sbp "at the Python level"?
22:46 alester edenc++
22:48 masak 'night, #perl6.
22:48 colomon \o
22:48 masak left #perl6
22:48 gfldex if they defend their language that hard it can only mean that they have to defend their language. i like that. :)
22:49 alester OK, off to be Dad.
22:49 alester left #perl6
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22:54 tadzik edenc: erm, that was me working on grammar based dispatching
22:54 edenc tadzik: yeah I now
22:54 edenc *know
22:54 tadzik edenc: you were the HN submitter?
22:55 TimToady .oO(so we're supposed to create buzz without re-educating people, eh?)
22:55 cafesofie left #perl6
22:55 edenc tadzik: no, you posted the blog entry after we discussed in here, along with ruoso
22:56 tadzik ah, that was you! I remember know
22:56 sorear TimToady: you can't re-educate people, you can only corrupt the youth.  It it no coincidence that PaFo ranks far higher in GCI than GSoC
22:56 tadzik I even mentioned you in the blog post
22:56 edenc tadzik: yeah
22:57 edenc tadzik: I'm silently and slowly learning the inner workings of perl 6 grammars in order to make up my mind about whether to copy some of the things into perl 5 or just plain use perl6 for the whole thing
22:59 tadzik I see
22:59 edenc and trying to pay the bills at the same time :)
23:00 edenc I was part of a framework project that suffered a slow and horrible death
23:00 edenc it really sucks to be bashed on a daily basis
23:02 avms left #perl6
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23:03 edenc and I really admire the perl 6 folks for the persistence, even with all the bashing coming from the perl community itself
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23:13 pmurias sorear: is there a GSoC ranking?
23:14 diakopter ranking of what
23:16 pmurias "PaFo ranks far higher in GCI than GSoc"
23:16 sorear pmurias: not an official one, but just look at the 5 PaFo tasks and the 20+ ffmpeg tasks
23:17 pmurias people likely want to do something easy
23:17 sorear pafo gets very little love from gsoc students, relative to most open source projects
23:17 pmurias sorear: btw are you a student?
23:17 sorear yes
23:17 pmurias why didn't you take part in GSoC?
23:19 sorear I don't have a good reason
23:19 avms left #perl6
23:19 pmurias you can take part this year
23:19 hudnix joined #perl6
23:19 pmurias ;)
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23:27 tadzik 'night
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