Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-01-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:01 pmurias how do i get the newest mono?
00:05 sorear git clone git://github.com/mono/mono.git
00:06 sorear I should clarify that the bugfixes are performance ones
00:06 molaf joined #perl6
00:07 sorear 1. the new garbage collector in 2.8 is much faster; in 2.9 it's stable enough to use, nearly doubling run speed
00:07 sorear 2. 2.9 can use AOT-compiled code for .exe files as well as .dlls
00:11 pmurias how fast is mono compared to the microsoft .net?
00:17 Piesie joined #perl6
00:18 Piesie Hello
00:20 TimToady howdy
00:20 TimToady what would you like to know about Perl 6?
00:21 Piesie Want to develop a web app using perl. Just want to know if perl6 is ready for use in commercial app. I haven't used perl in months.
00:22 TimToady at the moment performance is still slow on rakudo, so it would depend on you much stress you were putting on it
00:23 Piesie Ok.
00:23 TimToady also, we're not yet to the point of promising backward compatibility, so it depends on how sensitive you are to that
00:24 TimToady one can, of course, take a snapshot of the current version to guarantee some kind of continuity
00:25 Piesie U mean it's ready for use in developing apps but, just need some work on it's speed/performance?
00:25 TimToady it's basically being used by early adopters who want to figure where things will be a couple years, and aren't afraid of a few bumps between now and then
00:26 Piesie Ok.
00:26 TimToady so yes, you can develop apps now, but for the moment they're still pretty slow, and may break occasionally
00:26 TimToady it's fun though :)
00:28 TimToady and it will be approaching "commercial grade" within the next year or three
00:28 Piesie :-) . Sure it is. I love it when i spend hours trying to fix a bug, only to realize it's something small.
00:28 Piesie Ok. Will give it a try.
00:28 TimToady the things that work tend to work pretty well
00:28 TimToady also documentation is still in a rudimentary stage
00:29 Piesie Began last year, but stopped midway.
00:29 Piesie Ok.
00:29 TimToady you'll find it better now, though still not perfect
00:29 Piesie How about the modules. CPAN?
00:30 TimToady there are several efforts at bootstrapping a module ecosystem, with oh 70 or so modules in the large ones
00:30 Piesie Has it got its own set of modules/libs?
00:31 TimToady some come standard with Rakudo Star, which is more of a distribution model
00:31 Piesie Ok. All written in perl6?
00:31 TimToady others are available through pls or neutro
00:31 TimToady mostly; some may have dependencies on p5 modules via zavolaj
00:32 jnthn ...Blizkost? :)
00:32 TimToady that's what I meant
00:32 jnthn Zavolaj is the library for calling C :)
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00:32 jnthn I blame the guy who chose Slovak names for his projects.
00:32 TimToady which some of the modules also do, but jnthn knows more about than me
00:32 Piesie Hmm. Very perlish!
00:33 jnthn The MiniDBI (database connectivity) library is built on top of Zavolaj
00:33 jnthn It's kinda nice in that it's a pure Perl 6 library. No need to have a C compiler to use it.
00:33 jnthn s/use/install/
00:33 Piesie Great.
00:34 TimToady well, pure perl down to the zavolaj layer, anyway
00:34 jnthn Well, yes. :)
00:34 jnthn Zavolaj is...magical. :)
00:34 TimToady but lets you use ordinary .so or .dll files, I guess
00:34 jnthn Aye.
00:34 TimToady at least for simple APIs
00:35 jnthn Yeah. It's limited, but good enough for at least mysql/pgsql and I know others have done other bits with it too.
00:35 Piesie Apart from it's OO features, how different is perl6 from the current version?
00:35 jnthn It'll improve.
00:35 Piesie K
00:36 TimToady it's quite different in some ways
00:36 TimToady much stronger FP support too
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00:36 TimToady the grammar is much more regular and self-describing
00:36 TimToady the standard parser is written in Perl 6
00:37 TimToady and because of the regularity, we can also do some rather more powerful things than P5 can
00:37 TimToady such as meta-operators like APL has, only readable :)
00:37 Piesie Ok.
00:38 TimToady rakudo: say 1,2,3 Z+ 5,5,5
00:38 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«678␤»
00:38 TimToady that a "zipped" plus
00:39 TimToady it does the two lists pairwise like a zipper
00:39 TimToady and you can put any infix there in place of +
00:39 Piesie Nice
00:39 TimToady so we can concat instead of add, for instance
00:39 TimToady rakudo: say 1,2,3 Z~ <a b c>
00:40 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«1a2b3c␤»
00:40 TimToady rakudo: say (1,2,3 Z~ <a b c>).perl
00:40 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«("1a", "2b", "3c")␤»
00:40 TimToady that's clearer
00:40 TimToady there's a related X metaop that does a "cross product"
00:40 TimToady rakudo: say (1,2,3 X~ <a b c>).perl
00:40 Piesie This is cool
00:40 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«("1a", "1b", "1c", "2a", "2b", "2c", "3a", "3b", "3c")␤»
00:41 jnthn One of the nicest ones is reduction.
00:41 jnthn rakudo: say [+] 1,2,3
00:41 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«6␤»
00:41 jnthn Like putting the operator between the values.
00:41 TimToady perhaps the most potent difference from Perl 5 is that lists are lazy
00:41 jnthn rakudo: sub factorial($n) { [*] 1..$n }; say factorial(5); say factorial(10);
00:41 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«120␤3628800␤»
00:42 TimToady so instead of a factorial function, you can just define a lazy factorial array
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00:42 * jnthn is curious what TimToady's favorite way of writing that is...
00:43 TimToady rakudo: my @factorial := [\*] 1..*;  say @factorial[5]; say @factorial[10]
00:43 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«720␤39916800␤»
00:43 TimToady well, off by one, but you get the idea
00:43 jnthn Oh, wow. :)
00:43 jnthn I don't think I've seen the triangle reduction used for that before. :)
00:44 TimToady rakudo: my @factorial := 0, [\*] 1..*;  say @factorial[5]; say @factorial[10]
00:44 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«120␤3628800␤»
00:44 TimToady there we go
00:45 Piesie Gr8
00:45 TimToady the cute thing about it is that it automatically memoizes, so factorial(10) doesn't have to recalculate factorial(5)
00:45 Piesie Will visit the page.
00:46 Piesie That's great
00:46 TimToady for lots of examples, see rosettacode.org
00:46 TimToady http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Perl_6 specifically
00:46 sorear jnthn: spend some time in #haskell, you'd be amazed at the abuses scanl can be put to :)
00:47 Piesie Thanks. Bye
00:47 TimToady ciao
00:47 Piesie left #perl6
00:50 jnthn sorear: I have to learn Haskell syntax to do that. :)
00:51 jnthn It's something that bizzarely seems to evaporate from my brane as soon as I learn it.
00:51 TimToady just think about the ramifications of defining new lazy array elements in terms of existing array elements
00:51 jnthn Probably lack of practice.
00:55 shortcircuit TimToady: Indeed; I was really, really, really pleased with that elegant, efficient primes generator. :)
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01:01 jnthn sleep o'clock &
01:01 TimToady nitey
01:02 jnthn night o/
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01:09 colomon \o
01:09 TimToady shortcircuit: well, it's neither as elegant nor as efficient as it ought to be someday; 'last if $p > sqrt($n)' is neither of those
01:09 TimToady since it's recalculating sqrt($n) multiple times
01:09 TimToady and last wouldn't be necessary if we could nest ... correctly in rakudo
01:10 colomon hmmm, what's the issue there?
01:10 TimToady don't remember offhand, but the usual iterator collision I supect
01:11 TimToady we're talking about http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Prime_decomposition#Perl_6
01:11 colomon I guessed.  :)
01:11 colomon you can nest iterators now, you know.
01:11 TimToady if you want to try to turn the inner for loop into a ... I suspect you'll run into the problem, if it's still a problem
01:11 colomon I'll give it a go.
01:12 colomon Hmmm... I did it using a similar loop in Math::Prime.
01:12 colomon I think that was for speed, though.
01:15 TimToady anyway, @primes ... * > sqrt($n) didn't seem to work before; I think it eagerified it somewhere
01:15 colomon repeat { $n += 2 } until $n %% none do @primes ... * > sqrt($n);   seems to work fine now.
01:15 TimToady cool
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01:16 TimToady I'll bet it recalculates sqrt though
01:16 colomon I'm guessing that actually ... yeah, that.
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01:17 TimToady ... { $^p > START sqrt $n }
01:17 TimToady should reclone the sqrt at the right time
01:18 colomon seriously?  cool.
01:18 TimToady ... { $^p > state $s = sqrt $n }  # similarly
01:18 TimToady since state is defined in terms of START
01:19 TimToady (clone sensitivity is how state differs from C static)
01:19 colomon I'm not sure I prefer either of those to simply saying my $sqrt = sqrt($n);   -- though I guess that kind of destroys the one-liner elegance.
01:21 colomon I wonder what would be needed to allow the compiler to automatically hoist that out of the implicit loop?
01:21 TimToady pity you can't say { my $s = sqrt($n += 2) } since the $s would be trapped
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01:22 TimToady realizing that $n doesn't vary in the loop would allow a loop-invariant optimizer to see it
01:23 shortcircuit Mm.
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01:24 TimToady doubtless Haskell would automatically memoize it
01:24 shortcircuit Were it me, I'd try explicitly caching the output of my check function. Is there a way to write something like: my @sqrts := sqrt($index)?
01:25 TimToady yes, that could also be cached lazily, though you'd still have a lookup each time, rather than an invariant scalar in the loop
01:25 sorear TimToady: "doubtless" - you'd be suprised
01:26 sorear that behavior can cause memory leaks, so it's disabled by default in GHC (6.8)
01:26 colomon actually, isn't memoizing likely to be slower than calculating sqrt anyway?
01:26 TimToady not if it's just an index into an array
01:27 TimToady which you can do if you know the key is small integers
01:27 TimToady but yeah, there's still an awful lot of integers
01:27 TimToady so it wouldn't do to memoize that automatically for what might be a one-shot need
01:28 colomon It seems like it would have to recognize that you can memoize Int.sqrt a lot more efficiently than Real.sqrt
01:28 shortcircuit Is it that the key is small integers, or is it that the key is from a small set of integers? I'd need to look at the loop again, but being able to set an upper bound on memoized element count for a lazy list might be handy.
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01:29 TimToady there are several more Reals than there are Ints, cantorifically speaking
01:29 TimToady not that we can name many of them with a finite computer...
01:30 TimToady it's a bit sobering to realize that virtually none of the arithmetic done on a computer can be irrational
01:30 TimToady unless it's done symbolically
01:30 TimToady rakudo: say pi # not really
01:30 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«3.14159265358979␤»
01:30 TimToady maybe it should be named pioid, or piish, or pilike
01:31 colomon pi-close-enough-for-sane-people.  ;)
01:31 shortcircuit "it's a bit sobering to realize that virtually none of the arithmetic done on a computer can be irrational" ... oi. That really throws a wrench in some of the free will/AI sentience debates I've been participating in, lately.
01:32 shortcircuit Pun not intended.
01:32 colomon actually, of course if you're doing symbolic math you don't have to settle for an approximation on your computer any more than you have to with pencil and paper.
01:32 TimToady there are certainly ways of introducing quantum indeterminacy in a computation, so I don't think you should let the lack of IrRats bother you
01:33 shortcircuit Heh.
01:33 TimToady .oO(EarRats)
01:33 shortcircuit I'll avoid participating in spilling that set of debates over here. :)
01:34 sorear a computer which uses finite-precision decimals can handle the same IrRats that a mathematician using same can
01:34 sorear none of them
01:34 sorear most of the interesting math doesn't use concrete numbers anyway
01:34 TimToady and since I believe the universe basically has free will; any sufficiently feedbacky construct within the universe can find ways of deferring a decision until a decision is wanted
01:35 sorear it's all free variables and quantifiers
01:37 * colomon is now pondering making a numeric type which is just any Real * pi.
01:37 sorear on second thought, the computer wins
01:37 sorear humans aren't that good with schoenhage-strassen :)
01:37 TimToady Pauli has something to say about "free", and Heisenburg has something to say about "quantified"  :)
01:38 * TimToady ponders a number system in which every number is its own square root, and tests it with two test cases... :)
01:39 sorear Z_2 is a lovely field
01:40 TimToady rakudo: say sqrt(True).Bool
01:40 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
01:40 TimToady rakudo: say sqrt(False).Bool
01:40 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
01:40 TimToady \o/
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01:48 colomon https://gist.github.com/780610
01:48 colomon That's just a start.  :)
01:50 colomon rakudo: say 15 * pi - (10 * pi + 5 * pi)
01:51 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«0␤»
01:52 sorear rakudo: say (^10).WHAT
01:52 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«Range()␤»
01:53 dukeleto colomon: very nice to see the correct answer there :)
01:54 colomon dukeleto: kind of surprising.  I was figuring there would be a tiny bit of floating point error in there.
01:54 dukeleto colomon: if that isn't a spectest, it should be :)
01:57 plobsing rakudo: say (15 * pi - (10 * pi + 5 * pi)).WHAT
01:57 Tene I find the idea of a setting that had annotations indicating pure functions in approrpiate places for a compiler to make use of appealing.
01:57 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
01:57 colomon +1
01:58 plobsing rakudo: say (15 * pi - (10 * pi + 5 * pi)) * 1e10
01:58 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«0␤»
01:59 colomon plobsing: what I'm working on now is a simple class that allows you to do perfectly accurate basic math on pi.  :)
01:59 colomon It's completely useless, but cute.
02:01 sorear colomon: isn't there some rule to the effect that sin(Q * pi) \in \bar{C} ?
02:01 plobsing nifty
02:01 sorear er, \bar{Q}
02:02 colomon sorear: If so, I've not heard it.
02:02 colomon hmmm... guess for sure it is true for the integers.
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02:04 colomon http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath460/kmath460.htm
02:05 colomon Just as a quick answer, isn't sin(pi/4) the sqrt(2)?
02:05 colomon err, over 2?
02:05 colomon rakudo: say sin(pi/4);
02:06 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«0.707106781186547␤»
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02:06 colomon rakudo: say sqrt(2)/2
02:06 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«0.707106781186548␤»
02:07 sorear colomon: sqrt(2)/2 is in \bar{Q} though
02:07 sorear it's the root of 4*x*x - 2 = 0
02:08 colomon do you mean \bar{Q} to be the irrational numbers?
02:08 shortcircuit rakudo: say (sin(pi/4) - sqrt(2/2))
02:08 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«-0.292893218813453␤»
02:08 TimToady .oO(the PiRats of Penzance)
02:09 sorear I mean the field of algebraic numbers
02:09 sorear which is the minimal algebraic closure of Q
02:11 * shortcircuit tries to figure out why he doesn't remember sqrt(2)/2 == 1/sqrt(2) as a trig identity. Probably because he couldn't remember any of his trig identities in calc class.
02:12 shortcircuit Probably also because it's not strictly trig.
02:12 colomon sorear: ah.
02:12 colomon afk # company just arrived.
02:12 Tene shortcircuit: I don't see how that identity has anything to do with trig at all?
02:12 shortcircuit rakudo: say (sin(pi/4) - (sqrt(2)/2)
02:12 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
02:13 * shortcircuit blinks
02:13 Tene shortcircuit: it's just factoring... a/a² = 1/a
02:13 colomon https://gist.github.com/780610 # now updated with some operators.
02:13 shortcircuit rakudo: say (sin(pi/4) - (sqrt(2)/2))
02:13 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«-1.11022302462516e-16␤»
02:14 shortcircuit Ah, I see why I didn't see it. I forgot sqrt(2) == 2^(1/2)
02:15 shortcircuit Or something. I'm going to forget I ever took any math classes, now.
02:15 Tene shortcircuit: but... that's what sqrt means...
02:15 Tene ><
02:15 Tene 'k
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02:17 shortcircuit Tene: The last time I took a calc class was in 2003, it was Calc 2, and I got a C-. That's better than the D- I got in 2002. I haven't had to do much more than basic integrals with any regularity, and I've probably lost the intuition for just about anything above basic algebra. :-(
02:18 Tene shortcircuit: There's absolutely no need to justify yourself to me. :P
02:18 shortcircuit There was a fundamental gap in expectations of understanding. :)
02:18 TimToady the last calc I took was in, oh, 1973, ow...
02:19 TimToady everything we knew back then is now obsolete :)
02:19 Tene I wouldn't be born for another 12 years at that point. :)
02:20 shortcircuit And I'd have been born just two years before Tene.
02:20 * shortcircuit double-checks by counting on his fingers.
02:22 * shortcircuit should learn bit-twiddling tricks for finger-digit math hacks
02:23 * TimToady used to be a 4-sigma event, but has probably misplaced a sigma or two since then
02:25 TimToady probably because I've forgotten some of my probability as well
02:26 shortcircuit ...gah. He took the pun already.
02:26 TimToady that sigma is the last to go, unfortunately
02:27 TimToady it's sad--someday I'll be making puns that I don't get myself
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02:30 shortcircuit Wait...
02:31 shortcircuit 01:35 < TimToady> and since I believe the universe basically has free will; any sufficiently feedbacky  construct within the universe can find ways of deferring a decision until a decision is  wanted
02:31 shortcircuit Are you saying reality is just a lazy list?
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02:43 colomon sorear: were you suggesting one could also do a class for the field of algebraic numbers?
02:44 dukeleto colomon: that sounds interesting
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03:33 colomon rakudo: say sin pi
03:33 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«1.22464679914735e-16␤»
03:35 diakopter niecza: say sin pi
03:35 p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«Can't open perl script "niecza_eval": No such file or directory␤»
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03:47 sorear colomon: yes
03:48 colomon sorear: very interesting
03:52 * TimToady crosses his fingers that certain people won't get distracted :)
03:54 colomon ;)
03:58 sorear TimToady: what? who? where?
04:03 lue hello fellow zebras! o/
04:03 colomon lue: you'll love what I've been toying with.
04:04 * lue can't wait to will love it
04:05 colomon lue: https://gist.github.com/780610
04:05 colomon exact math with multiples of pi
04:08 lue woo-hoo! That saves 2 characters of typing, and looks more mathy too boot \o/ !
04:08 colomon lue: the important bit is the exact
04:09 colomon so if you say 10π + 5π, it's just doing integer arithmetic to get the answer 15π, and it's exactly 15π.
04:09 dalek niecza: 3320d05 | sorear++ | t (4 files):
04:09 dalek niecza: Merge back test2
04:09 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/3320d057e9
04:09 dalek niecza: eab7f8a | sorear++ | Makefile:
04:09 dalek niecza: Add test and p6eval make targets
04:09 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/eab7f8a9ff
04:10 lue ah, so it comes out 15π instead of some approximate floating number. That's very cool :)
04:10 colomon I don't know that it's terribly useful, but it was fun.
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04:11 colomon and very easy
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04:12 * lue now ponders infinite cardinals in Perl 6... aaah!
04:13 colomon and sorear++ is suggesting terrible ways to make it more ... umm... complete.  :)
04:15 dukeleto colomon: can we make it act the same with irrational numbers?
04:16 lue as long as it's complete, nothing could *possibly* go wrong :)
04:16 colomon you mean some greater sort of symbolic math?
04:16 * lue needs to heavily customize his compose key...
04:17 Tene lue: https://github.com/kragen/xcompose is what I use
04:17 Tene I think a few others here do too.
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04:17 * colomon is ashamed to admit he just used the special character box in TextMate to get the first π, and has been cutting and pasting it ever since.
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04:18 colomon Especially sad because it turns out π is just option-p.
04:19 colomon sorear suggested that if you pass a Rat times π to sine, the result should be an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_integer
04:20 lue Tene: I've actually come across that repo though. I looked at every single combination and decided not to use it :) [I should though...]
04:20 lue Ooh, I forgot. Happy Anniversary Wikipedia! \o/
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04:43 lue colomon: any other evil things that could make your code more complete?
04:43 colomon lue: ah, there's always something out there...
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04:48 TimToady I think they should be PiRats, not PiInts
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04:48 lue .oO(Do PiRats drink PiInts of beer?)
04:51 * lue is activating the coolest .Xcompose file ever. Please wait.
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04:51 colomon PyrE ....
04:52 colomon off to bed
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04:58 lue ahoy, zebra PiRats o/
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06:22 dalek niecza: bb76bbe | diakopter++ | FETCH_URL:
06:22 dalek niecza: remove trailing linebreak from FETCH_URL; was breaking cygwin build; I'm sure there are other ways to fix it...
06:22 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/bb76bbe8c5
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06:43 dalek niecza: 4f2a35b | diakopter++ | README.pod:
06:43 dalek niecza: README.pod: add a section for Cygwin/.NET; amend the CREDITS section a bit
06:43 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/4f2a35bc76
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06:49 dalek niecza: 240d90d | diakopter++ | README.pod:
06:49 dalek niecza: more README cleanup/clarification
06:49 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/240d90d1f5
06:52 diakopter std: $*HIGHWATER = $¢.pos = @*MEMOS[$¢.pos]<ws>//$¢.pos;
06:52 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
06:52 diakopter o_O
06:57 diakopter (that line causes niecza to say "assigning to readonly value"
07:00 TimToady yes, it's one of the places STD cheats on the immutability of the current cursor
07:02 diakopter I thought I read the whole backlog..
07:02 diakopter but that seems to be a problem with a clean checkout
07:02 diakopter clean clone
07:03 diakopter TimToady: do you get that error from a fresh clone/build?
07:03 TimToady eh?  I'm still getting the problem of the old version
07:04 diakopter oh.
07:04 diakopter this is with .NET4
07:04 diakopter I haven't looked at the p6eval machine's niecza environment
07:04 diakopter I could try it on mono 2.8.2
07:04 * diakopter looks
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07:09 diakopter mberends: hi
07:09 diakopter working okay with 2.8.2 so far, I *thought*
07:10 diakopter but apparently it thought it needed to rebuild everything
07:11 mberends diakopter: hi from an android phone at London Gatwick airport (departing soon to visit jnthn :)
07:11 diakopter heh
07:11 diakopter good travels
07:13 diakopter TimToady: fresh niecza checkout, untampered mono 2.8.2 amd64/linux (debian) build, niecza gets all tests successful
07:15 mberends diakopter: thanks. Is Sprixel doing any spectesting? any LHF there?
07:16 moritz_ good morning
07:17 diakopter well, now that I suddenly have another choice of STD-compatible front-end (niecza) in addition to viv, I'm thinking of using that (once today's build kinks get curved out)...
07:17 diakopter mberends: so to answer your question, no, there's still no sprixel but for the perlesque language
07:18 diakopter which is complete but quickly becoming obviated
07:18 mberends these are exciting times for implementations :)
07:21 diakopter otoh, I still suspect niecza's Perl 6 parser could be lots more efficient/faster if its STD.pm6 were much more (primitive)type-annotated(or at least inferred)... so there still may be some value in pursuing that implementation angle (the primitive/native types, on up)
07:21 typepeter good morning , moritz
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11:34 pmurias diakopter: re viv and niecza, choose niecza
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11:36 pmurias diakopter: by targeting NAM you won't be duplicating all the hairy ast transforms (like if's), you will help niecza (highlighting any possible backend assumptioms in NAM), and you'll get optimialisation for free when they appear in niecza
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12:42 * colomon is startled to discover he doesn't need to wake up and work on masak++'s problems this morning
12:43 moritz_ colomon: heh :-)
12:43 moritz_ dud masak comment on how many submissions he received?
12:44 colomon moritz_: things going a bit better this morning?
12:44 colomon he has not yet said anything about it, as far as I know.
12:44 moritz_ colomon: yep, wife is already doing short walks again, toddler doesn't need artificial respiration anymore
12:44 colomon \o/
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12:46 colomon you did submit 5 solutions, right?
12:46 moritz_ yes
12:46 colomon me too
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12:50 moritz_ http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/ronja.jpg that's her
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12:52 tadzik hello zebras
12:53 tadzik moritz_: cute, congratulations!
12:53 colomon moritz_: awwww.  :)
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13:04 frettled moritz_: congrats!
13:04 moritz_ now I need to write a mail to the Norwegian family :-)
13:05 moritz_ "Ronja er født", is that right? :-)
13:05 mux moritz_: she's a beauty, congratulations :-)
13:05 tadzik moritz_: congratulations from my girlfriend too :)
13:06 mux heh, funny, my gf just went "awwwwwwwwwww" too
13:06 moritz_ thank you tadzik & .girlfriend, colomon, frettled, mux :-)
13:06 moritz_ funny enough, a year ago I was rather insensitive to pictures from newborns
13:06 moritz_ and now I also go "awwwwwww" :-)
13:07 mux a few years ago, I was quite insensitive to children in general; not so much anymore - I guess I'm getting older
13:07 colomon good, you're responding properly, then.  :)
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13:09 frettled moritz_: they really mess with our brains ;)
13:10 moritz_ aye :-)
13:10 moritz_ even before they are born
13:10 frettled mm
13:10 moritz_ through the wife's hormones
13:10 frettled Some might claim that they mess with our brains before and during the production process, too.
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13:42 arnsholt moritz_: Yeah, that's correct Norwegian
13:42 moritz_ arnsholt: thanks
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15:07 ggoebel moritz_: congratuations
15:10 ggoebel moritz_: take care of mom. She has at least 2 months of sleep deprivation to look forward to.
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15:12 colomon it was more like 18 months for both of us.  ;)
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15:23 arnsholt rakudo: last
15:23 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«  in '!control' at line 1␤»
15:24 moritz_ who was last in control? :-)
15:26 arnsholt Yeah, something like that =)
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15:46 arnsholt Oh, great a segfault
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15:47 kalkin- hi
15:48 kalkin- how do i declare constants in perl6?
15:48 kalkin- in classes
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15:54 colomon hmmm.
15:55 colomon constant but different for each object, or constant and the same for each object?
15:57 dalek 6model: 2c94d8f | jonathan++ | java/compiler/compile.pir:
15:57 dalek 6model: [java] Should use UTF8 encoding when reading source files.
15:57 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/2c94d8f8d6
16:02 kalkin- colomon: same
16:03 kalkin- something like i would do in php with const key word
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16:03 kalkin- i.e. i have a object HTTPStatus and it has constants
16:04 kalkin- const SUCCESSFULL = 200;
16:04 kalkin- const NOT_FOUND = 404;
16:04 kalkin- ect ...
16:04 colomon kalkin-: in theory, you can just say "constant $successful = 200;" in Perl 6, but in practice, I don't think that works yet in Rakudo.
16:05 kalkin- colomon: how that? i thought rakudo is written accordingly to perl6 specs
16:05 colomon Rakudo does not yet implement the entire Perl 6 spec.
16:05 kalkin- as rakudo was released as stable i thought it implements the entire perl6 spec
16:05 kalkin- colomon: ohh
16:05 flussence rakudo: class HTTP { has %.status = enum « :OK(200) :Not-Found(404) »; }
16:05 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9:  ( no output )
16:05 flussence rakudo: class HTTP { has %.status = enum « :OK(200) :Not-Found(404) »; }; say 'alive';
16:05 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«alive␤»
16:06 kalkin- colomon: is there some page where all not implemented stuff is mentioned?
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16:06 colomon kalkin-: http://rakudo.org/status
16:06 colomon though I don't see constant mentioned there.
16:07 flussence rakudo: constant $a = 1;
16:07 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Constant type declarator not yet implemented at line 22, near "= 1;"␤»
16:07 kalkin- me neither
16:07 kalkin- k, it doesn't work :)
16:08 colomon I'm not sure why, it seems like it ought to be pretty easy to at least approximate it.  Hmm.
16:08 flussence (is there any way to pull out a nice list of all the tests rakudo is skipping)
16:08 flussence s/$/?
16:08 colomon flussence: not that I know of, and the list would be pretty huge.
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16:09 flussence hm...
16:09 kalkin- i'm new to perl6 coded a littlebit perl with thw LWP library and www::mechanize
16:09 kalkin- i'm thought about porting lwp to 6 to learn 6 better
16:09 * flussence has enough spare time to go try them all manually
16:10 colomon flussence: a quick grep suggests there are about 1000 Rakudo skip statements in the test suite
16:10 kalkin- i really like that perl6 can be coded completly staticaly typed
16:10 colomon and another 469 todos
16:10 kalkin- static typing ftw! :)
16:11 tadzik kalkin-: there's a partial port of LWP::Simple, you may find that useful
16:11 tadzik kalkin-: look at http://modules.perl6.org/
16:13 kalkin- nice i overlooked it
16:15 arnsholt There
16:16 * arnsholt has submitted his solutions for p6cc2010
16:16 arnsholt Hoping for the consolation prize, since I've only got solutions for p1-4 =)
16:18 colomon arnsholt: moritz_ and I submitted all five.  :)
16:18 colomon no word yet if anyone else did.
16:19 colomon what did you do for p4?
16:19 arnsholt My AI does perfect play in the cases it's possible
16:20 arnsholt (modulo bugs, obviously)
16:20 arnsholt From what you've said you've got the same, no?
16:21 colomon only up to a certain level
16:21 colomon so perhaps not as good as your solution.
16:21 colomon I think mine should have perfect play as long as all the runs of stones are length 25 or shorter.
16:22 colomon (modulo bugs)
16:22 flussence .oO( argh, "ulimit -m 1500000" doesn't do what it's supposed to... )
16:22 arnsholt http://oeis.org/search?q=dawson%27s+kayles&amp;language=english&amp;go=Search
16:22 arnsholt The Nimber sequence for various game states for the game in p4
16:23 arnsholt I kinda ODed on the research on p4 and found enough theory to figure out how to leverage that sequence in my solution
16:23 colomon I figured there had to be something like that, but I didn't want to look it up.  :)
16:23 arnsholt Hehe
16:24 colomon my p5 solution was all research and borrowed algorithms, so I did p4 the hard (and incomplete) way.
16:24 arnsholt Hehe
16:24 arnsholt I almost spreed on the matrix chain thing as well
16:24 arnsholt Turns out there's an n log n algorithm
16:24 colomon I suspect my p4 solution plays almost as well as yours, but not quite as well, and is massively longer.  :)
16:25 arnsholt But in the end I just did n "normal" bottom-up DP deal
16:25 colomon arnsholt: I just generated all the permutations and tested them.  Pretty trivial, if not the best solution.
16:25 arnsholt Yeah, the code for the front-end in my ode is actually the most complicated part
16:26 arnsholt Including blank lines and comments, my AI code is 71 lines
16:26 arnsholt The front-end is 140 lines =)
16:26 colomon my AI code is 300 lines.
16:27 colomon front-end is only like 30.
16:27 arnsholt Hehe
16:27 arnsholt My AI is massively abstracted away
16:27 arnsholt So the front-end has to do all the leg-work for converting back and forth between the AI's world-view and everyone elses's =)
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16:29 colomon ah, that part is hard to separate out from my AI.
16:29 colomon :)
16:29 colomon arnsholt++
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16:47 dalek niecza: c010820 | pmurias++ | src/NieczaBackendClisp.pm6:
16:47 dalek niecza: fix the clisp backend
16:47 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c0108202b3
16:47 pmurias diakopter: ping
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16:55 dalek 6model: 245905a | jonathan++ | java/ (5 files):
16:55 dalek 6model: [java] A few bits to try and get the project moving again. This puts an older partial setting in place dating to around when things were last updated. Both runtime and compiler build again.
16:55 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/245905ab9b
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17:17 diakopter pmurias: plong
17:17 diakopter oooo jnthn back on 6model
17:20 diakopter pmurias: but.. perlesque already does all that, and has gotos/labels; it has a couple tradeoffs with nam as far as low-level-ness goes
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17:25 diakopter phenny: tell pmurias what I was instead considering was working on primitive/native type support for niecza, and possibly using parts of perlesque's codebase for that (if necessary)
17:25 phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when pmurias is around.
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17:32 flussence well, I just ran all the test files rakudo has todo things in and there's a bunch that pass normally now:
17:33 flussence t/spec/S04-statement-modifiers/while.t, t/spec/S05-mass/properties-block.t, t/spec/S06-signature/passing-arrays.t, t/spec/S16-filehandles/unlink.t
17:34 flussence if anyone wants to do it themselves, I did it using   ack -ag '\.rakudo' | sed -e 's/\.rakudo/\.t/' > tests.list; perl t/harness --tests-from-file=tests.list
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17:43 colomon arnsholt: On further consideration, if your p4 works as advertised, I predict it will normally smoke mine.  :)
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18:44 pmurias diakopter: re adding primitive/native stuff to niecza, that's even better
18:44 phenny pmurias: 17:25Z <diakopter> tell pmurias what I was instead considering was working on primitive/native type support for niecza, and possibly using parts of perlesque's codebase for that (if necessary)
18:45 pmurias diakopter: i thought you were considering making viv emit perlesque code
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19:47 arnsholt colomon: Thanks! I did go a bit bananas on the research for that, so it's good that the result was good too =)
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19:54 sorear good * #perl6
19:58 Layla_91 joined #perl6
19:58 Layla_91 hi o/
19:59 kthakore Layla_91: hi \o FIVE!
19:59 kthakore :)
19:59 Layla_91 ktha
19:59 Layla_91 kthakore: :D
19:59 kthakore Layla_91: welcome to #perl6
20:00 Layla_91 kthakore: Are you new here?
20:01 kthakore Layla_91: I have lurked a lot
20:01 kthakore and dabbled a bit
20:01 Layla_91 kthakore: I guess it is first time we meet here :) nice to meet you! :D
20:01 kthakore nice to meet you too!
20:01 Layla_91 can we achieve ordered hashes in perl6?
20:02 sorear EnumMap is specced to be an ordered hash
20:03 moritz_ really?
20:03 moritz_ I understood it differently
20:03 pmurias if a hash is ordered it's no longer a hashtable
20:04 Layla_91 But it seems kinda hard to emulate one.. I know it loses some of its charm when it becomes ordered.. but it is needed sometimes..
20:05 Layla_91 I mean to emulate one with current imp of perl6..
20:05 * moritz_ has basically never felt the need of full-blown ordered hashed
20:05 moritz_ I have sometimes kept a list of keys in order
20:05 flussence emulating one isn't that hard - you just need a normal hash to map keys to array indices, and an array to store the values
20:05 moritz_ but I never had to perform insertion or deletion operations in both
20:05 plobsing Layla_91: parrot has an OrderedHash. you can probably make use of it from rakudo.
20:06 Layla_91 plobsing: oh so we actually do have ordered hashes in one implementation of perl6.. great I will check it :D
20:10 Layla_91 Oh..
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20:11 tadzik hi Layla_91!
20:11 Layla_91 tadzik: hi!!! :D
20:11 tadzik sorear: I have some problems with new niecza: http://nopaste.snit.ch/27857
20:12 pmurias Layla_91: even if ordered hashes are not specced it should be easy to have the in an module (using an AVL tree or similiar)
20:12 Layla_91 tadzik: I googled Eric Clapton few days ago :D
20:12 flussence isn't S09:461 a definition of an ordered hashtable anyway?
20:13 tadzik Layla_91: ha, nice :) I really like this acoustic version
20:13 pmurias flussence: it has a constant set of keys
20:13 flussence oh
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20:15 Layla_91 tadzik: appeared that my name is famous B-)
20:16 Layla_91 pmurias: I know it can be done.. It just need more typing than I thought :) I was trying to convert some python3.1 code to perl6 yesterday and wished it exists :)
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20:17 pmurias Layla_91: they are builtin in python?
20:18 awwaiid joined #perl6
20:23 Layla_91 pmurias: I ment it would ease my work.. It was not in the code I was converting.. but AFAIK it will be available in version 3.2 of python..
20:25 Layla_91 pmurias: Just found this: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0372/#abstract
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20:28 jnthn evening, #perl6
20:29 moritz_ *, #perl6
20:29 Layla_91 jnthn: Hey! I read your slides about signatures.. do more of these slides please! :D
20:30 moritz_ that was quite an awesome talk
20:30 moritz_ I heard it at YAPC::EU
20:30 moritz_ and basically everybody was impressed
20:31 Layla_91 moritz_: I saw you too on youtube :D
20:31 moritz_ Layla_91: did you?
20:31 moritz_ I didn't know I was on a video anywhere
20:31 Layla_91 moritz_: Yes you are :D Google your name :D
20:31 moritz_ just found it
20:32 Layla_91 moritz_: Sound quality is not so good.. just for the future.. :)
20:32 jnthn Layla_91: Thanks, glad you liked them! :)
20:32 jnthn Layla_91: More of my talks are on http://www.jnthn.net/articles.shtml
20:33 Layla_91 jnthn: I liked the "I like beer part" :D
20:33 jnthn There's a video around of "Perl 6: For Little Tools and Large Applications" and the sound quality on it was quite good.
20:33 jnthn Layla_91: :D
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20:34 * jnthn has been planning what conferences to go to this year. :)
20:34 moritz_ jnthn: do tell
20:35 jnthn moritz_: Currently likely are Dutch Perl Workshop, OSDC.TW, YAPC::Russia, French Perl Workshop and YAPC::Europe.
20:35 pmurias sorear: any idea what is the source of make setting the terminal color to grey? or should i hunt it down
20:36 jnthn moritz_: Will keep an eye open for other things being organized too. :)
20:36 Layla_91 jnthn: When are you coming to Russia? and where in Russia..
20:37 lue hello world o/
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20:39 jnthn Layla_91: As far as I know, YAPC::Russia will be 14-15th May in Moscow.
20:39 jnthn Layla_91: You're in/from Russia?
20:39 Layla_91 jnthn: I am from Volgograd :D
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20:39 jnthn Layla_91: Oh, cool!
20:40 jnthn I never went there...yet. :)
20:40 Layla_91 jnthn: Currently not in russia but I visit russia once a year :)
20:40 jnthn I seem to make it roughly every 2 years. Have managed to visit Ukraine once a year for the last four years though.
20:40 Layla_91 jnthn: Moscow is 2 hours flight from Volgograd so it is not a problem for me to visit moscow..
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20:42 jnthn Layla_91: Cool. I'm sure there will be website up for YAPC::Russia soon. I think it'll be fun event with lots of Perl people.
20:42 jnthn Perl community is awesome.
20:42 jnthn :)
20:42 Layla_91 jnthn: expect a girl called Layla to be there :D
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20:42 jnthn Layla_91: Cool! :D
20:43 jnthn See you there. :)
20:43 lue [backlogging] Congratulations, moritz_!
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20:44 moritz_ thanks lue
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20:49 Layla_91 jnthn: :)
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20:50 lue glad to hear the little tyke is doing alright.
20:50 Layla_91 Goodbye all.. I will be out for around a week.. see u soon! \o/
20:50 jnthn bye bye o/
20:51 lue bye o/
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20:56 moritz_ std: my $x if 0
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20:56 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
20:56 moritz_ rakudo: my $x if 0
20:56 p6eval rakudo d5b9d9:  ( no output )
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20:59 sorear pmurias: I blame NieczaFrontendSTD.pm6 line 77
21:02 sorear tadzik: what version of mono?
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21:09 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | http://tinyurl.com/p6contest
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21:15 dalek rakudo: 1671b5e | KodiB++ | / (2 files):
21:15 dalek rakudo: Moved what I intended to be comments outside of angle brackets.
21:15 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1671b5ef71
21:15 dalek roast: 9b43296 | (Kodi Arfer)++ | S32-temporal/DateTime-Instant-Duration.t:
21:15 dalek roast: Added a test for Instant.perl.
21:15 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9b43296da5
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21:17 pmurias sorear: i'll fix that line
21:18 pmurias how is boot/ updated?
21:18 moritz_ Kodi: should tools/update-tai-utc.pl be run regularly?
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21:21 Kodi moritz_: Yes, each February and August.
21:22 moritz_ Kodi: maybe it would be helpful to add a step to the release guide, instructing it to run after a release or something
21:23 moritz_ otherwise we'll forget, I fear
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21:23 Kodi moritz_: Not a bad idea.
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21:28 pmurias sorear: boot/ now needs to be updated to avoid the greyness after make
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21:30 dalek niecza: d8d1eb9 | pmurias++ | src/NieczaFrontendSTD.pm6:
21:30 dalek niecza: fixed reseting the term
21:30 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/d8d1eb9d21
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21:34 lue Is it normal for a test to be unable to find a sub in a module I can use with the REPL?
21:34 DarthGandalf joined #perl6
21:35 flussence lue: sounds like the test and REPL are looking in different $PERL6LIB paths, maybe
21:40 lue possibly. I'll check that in a minute.
21:45 pmurias sorear: i don't undestand how the Makefile works, shouldn't compiling the niecza harness automatically check if any of niecza submodules changed and recompile them?
21:45 tadzik sorear: 2.6.7
21:48 lue actually, I don't think it the environment is the problem, as running both    make test    (which sets a temporary PERL6LIB) and    perl6 t/test.t    fail.
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21:58 dalek nqp-rx/nom: 99b6773 | jonathan++ | / (4 files):
21:58 dalek nqp-rx/nom: A bit more stubbing in of multi-dispatch; this just always hands back the first candidate in the list to invoke for testing purposes. More interesting is that the invocation logic, passing along the same argument set, is in place now.
21:58 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/99b67739ce
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22:01 lue tadzik: is there an auth field for META.info? [or rather, what fields does neutro support?]
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22:06 lue Hm. perl6.org seems to be down.
22:09 dalek rakudo: 1014912 | jnthn++ | src/core/Parcel.pm:
22:09 dalek rakudo: Add a workaround from bacek++ to avoid hitting things from the NQP Setting that get added to ResizablePMCArray, and also notes on the way that we'll end up ridding ourselves of this problem in the future.
22:09 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1014912a8a
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22:15 lue where can I see what to put in a META.info file for neutro? [don't say S22 unless neutro implements all of those fields]
22:16 colomon We just asked tadzik++
22:17 arnsholt lue: Well, if you're feeling brave, there's always the neutro source code
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22:23 lue I grazed the source and didn't see anything.
22:26 lue colomon: care to tell me what the answer was? :)
22:28 colomon I just copied his first example META.info for mine.
22:28 colomon I've no idea if other fields are possible or not.
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22:53 snarkyboojum lue: http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/perl-6-module-ecosystem-%E2%80%93-news-and-ideas/
22:59 snarkyboojum lue: in other words, just that subset of S22 at present :)
23:00 snarkyboojum lue: but it's certainly not going to blow up if you include an author field etc
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23:14 lue I still think S22's authority/author disambiguation is very illegal.
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23:19 sorear pmurias: it does
23:21 pmurias sorear: so why run niecza on all the submodules from the Makefile?
23:22 sorear pmurias: what's a submodule?
23:23 pmurias just meant all the .pm6's
23:23 pmurias ahh it turns all the .nam files into .dll's
23:24 pmurias i was trying to understand why changing one file and recompiling takes so long
23:24 sorear For some reason the automatic conversion with -Bdotnet is horribly slow
23:25 sorear for me it takes around as long as explicitly running CLRBackend N times
23:25 sorear for one file
23:25 sorear there are some unpleasant interactions with make-logic
23:26 pmurias can't you ran it only on those files that changed?
23:27 pmurias it takes 20sec for me
23:32 pmurias not sure how to do it portably
23:35 pmurias sorear: how difficult would it be to add profiling to niecza?
23:37 dalek nqp-rx/nom: ef0b76b | jonathan++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
23:37 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Fix a copy-paste fail.
23:37 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/ef0b76b9df
23:37 dalek nqp-rx/nom: d0c72d1 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
23:37 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Get multiple dispatch working up to the point that it can do arity-based multiple dispatch. A lot of the stuff for type-based is stubbed in too, as is some incomplete error reporting. Still needs hardening, caching, etc.
23:37 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/d0c72d1d9a
23:38 sorear diakopte1: does cygwin's shell have the [ command?
23:39 sorear pmurias: that depends on your definition of profiling
23:41 flussence [ is a posixy thing, I'd expect it to be in there. It's the "[[" that's a bash-ism
23:44 pmurias why can't we use Perl 6 instead of shell/Makefile
23:44 pmurias ?
23:45 pmurias flussence: isn't cywin's shell a bash?
23:46 flussence dunno
23:47 flussence probably is, but I haven't used cygwin in ages.
23:47 pmurias cygwin likely tries to be as much of a linux as possible
23:50 pmurias sorear: how much different functions take
23:51 pmurias sorear: checking datedness of files seems a bit suspicious
23:51 lue blag toast!    https://rdstar.wordpress.com/2011/01/15/numbersordinals-is-here-ish/
23:52 dalek 6model: efd7ee5 | (Martin Berends)++ | java/ (17 files):
23:52 dalek 6model: [java] first of a series to commits to catch up to dotnet.
23:52 dalek 6model: Compiles and starts running but then exits when RakudoCodeRef::Invoke is
23:52 dalek 6model: called with a null parameter.
23:52 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/efd7ee5f54
23:52 pmurias sorear: but optimising stuff blindly seems silly
23:55 pmurias sorear: the best case would be to emit stuff Devel::NYTProf takes
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