Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-01-16

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 sorear pmurias: the main reason I'm not considering a Perl 6 build system is that all available implementations still use far too much memory
00:01 sorear time profiling isn't currently available; when optimizing, I rely on NIECZA_TRACE_CALLS and the Mono profiler
00:01 pmurias so it will take too long?
00:01 dukeleto sorear: perhaps you can use redo
00:01 pmurias what's redo?
00:01 dukeleto https://github.com/apenwarr/redo
00:01 sorear the Mono profiler can produce exclusive time information for Perl 6 calls, and then I correlate that with the call graph
00:02 dukeleto djb's invention to replace make, implemented by someone else who is very talented
00:02 sorear pmurias: more like "forever" for me; the build already swaps
00:02 snarkyboojum dukeleto: redo doesn't work on windows though and requires python on all other platforms atm right?
00:02 pmurias sorear: swaps?
00:02 pmurias sorear: how much RAM do you have?
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00:03 dukeleto snarkyboojum: i believe there is a simple redo that comes with the python one, that only requires /bin/sh
00:03 snarkyboojum dukeleto: I thought that was more a proof of concept, but still doesn't work on windows I guess
00:03 sorear pmurias: 384MiB
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00:05 pmurias sorear: why so little?
00:07 lue afk for a bit.
00:11 dalek 6model: bbc7776 | jonathan++ | java/compiler/try.bat:
00:11 dalek 6model: [java] A barebones try.bat so I can get things running on Windows.
00:11 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/bbc77762b6
00:12 pmurias sorear: so how long does recompiling niecza after changing one file take for you?
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00:21 snarkyboojum lue: "I still think S22's authority/author disambiguation is very illegal." - what do you mean by that?
00:23 TimToady s/author/contributors/
00:29 * snarkyboojum still wonders what's happening with cpan6.org :)
00:32 pmurias the site is surely outdated
00:32 pmurias as it referes to April 2010 as a future date
00:32 snarkyboojum pmurias: aye
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00:40 lue hello again o/
00:41 lue snarkyboojum: S11 states that the :auth option for modules (e.g.    module A::B :auth<ME!>) is left ambiguous, meaning either 'authority' or 'author', depending on what you want it to mean.
00:41 supernovus good $timeofday
00:42 sorear pmurias: I haven't done that since I set up the makefile.
00:42 sorear I'll check out redo later
00:42 lue S22 allowing those to be separate fields (instead of synonyms or replaced with one auth option) violates S11
00:43 snarkyboojum lue: ah, "intentionally ambiguous". I see.
00:43 dalek 6model: bae7169 | jonathan++ | java/compiler/NQPSetting.pm:
00:43 dalek 6model: [java] Need the things in the simplified setting to have lexical scope.
00:43 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/bae71697b3
00:43 dalek 6model: 422f867 | jonathan++ | java/runtime/Rakudo/Init.java:
00:43 dalek 6model: [java] Update outdated name.
00:43 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/422f867ed9
00:45 supernovus I was finding a strange issue with the JSON::Tiny library. I'm seeing if a complete reinstall of my Rakudo and libraries fixes it.
00:52 * supernovus dreams of a day when rakudo is as fast as perl5...
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00:54 pmurias sorear: redo is not portable to windows based on the makefile
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00:57 dalek 6model: d944750 | jonathan++ | java/compiler/JST2Java.pm:
00:57 dalek 6model: [java] Fix code-gen of block setup, so now invocation bottoms out.
00:57 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/d944750055
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01:04 dalek nqp-rx/nom: 7852255 | jonathan++ | src/metamodel/multi_dispatch.c:
01:04 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Finish up getting type-based multiple dispatch to work.
01:04 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/7852255ed5
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01:08 TimToady the point is, auth is part of the key, and contributors is just part of the value
01:08 supernovus Well, a nice fresh build of everything and I can still replicate the bug in JSON::Tiny. When you call from-json() on a JSON string that has an escaped " character in it, the \" part turns into Any(). So if you had <a href="blah"> it would become <a href=Any()blahAny()> which of course fails horridly when you try to parse it.
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01:22 supernovus Well, it seems I fixed the bug. It was just missing an action for handing an escaped " character.
01:28 supernovus Well, I submitted an issue on the json github page with the solution I used. Hope it gets fixed in the upstream :-)
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01:36 dalek nqp-rx/nom: b6b076d | jonathan++ | src/metamodel/multi_dispatch.c:
01:36 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Get multi-dispatch on definedness to work.
01:36 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/b6b076d6af
01:36 dalek nqp-rx/nom: f4fe15c | jonathan++ | t/nqp/55-multi-method.t:
01:36 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Add multi-method tests from nqpclr, which now pass in nqp-rx/nom.
01:36 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/f4fe15c2d7
01:41 sorear TimToady: what version of mono do you have?
01:45 sorear EVERYONE: What versions of Mono should I test niecza on?
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01:53 dalek nqp-rx/nom: 78031bf | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (3 files):
01:53 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Update bootstrap with multiple dispatch and signature parsing improvements.
01:53 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/78031bfdc9
01:53 dalek nqp-rx/nom: b0fa8db | jonathan++ | src/metamodel/how/NQPMu.pm:
01:53 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Make ACCEPTS a multi and correct the signature of it.
01:53 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/b0fa8db53f
01:56 jnthn night o/
01:56 sorear night!
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02:11 sorear S03-operators/flip-flop.t is extremely suspect
02:11 sorear it appears to assert that ~[ Nil, Nil, Nil, Nil, Nil ] eq "    "
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02:14 colomon Does the flip-flop operator even work in Rakudo?  I can't recall ever running into it in the source....
02:15 colomon rakudo: say 4 ff 5
02:15 p6eval rakudo 101491: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say 4 ff 5"␤»
02:16 colomon std: say 4 ff 5
02:16 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
02:16 colomon pugs: say 4 ff 5
02:16 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&infix:ff"␤    at /tmp/lfZFiZegEU line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
02:16 colomon niecza: say 4 ff 5
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02:16 p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«Can't open perl script "niecza_eval": No such file or directory␤»
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02:22 snarkyboojum alpha: say "I still work"
02:22 p6eval alpha : OUTPUT«I still work␤»
02:23 colomon alpha: say 4 ff 5
02:23 p6eval alpha : OUTPUT«Confused at line 10, near "ff 5"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
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02:27 diakopte1 phenny: tell sorear bash on latest cygwin is GNU bash, version 3.2.51(24)-release (i686-pc-cygwin)
02:27 phenny diakopte1: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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02:41 PerlJam I just had a minor "moment".   I've got a window up with some Perl code in it that I just switched to.  For a few seconds I couldn't tell if I was looking at Perl 5 or Perl 6.
02:42 PerlJam Somehow I think this is a good thing :)
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02:46 sorear diakopter: what versions of mono should I test on?
02:46 phenny sorear: 02:27Z <diakopte1> tell sorear bash on latest cygwin is GNU bash, version 3.2.51(24)-release (i686-pc-cygwin)
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02:50 TimToady sorear: I just upgraded to 2.8.2, but it still fails the say 1
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03:03 sorear TimToady: is that failure from a clean build after the upgrade?
03:07 TimToady checking
03:08 TimToady well, after git clean it doesn't offer to do anything
03:09 TimToady git pull forces some stuff to rebuild though
03:10 TimToady still can't resolve keys in class Array
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03:21 sorear TimToady: after 'mono boot/run/Niecza.exe test.pl', do any not oks come up?
03:24 TimToady undeclared routines: chr and ord
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03:44 TimToady attempting fresh clone
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03:50 TimToady same error, no chr or ord
03:55 * sorear tries to install 2.8
03:55 sorear .2
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04:35 diakopter TimToady: weird.
04:41 sorear not weird at all
04:41 sorear I just screwed up the directions
04:41 sorear the bootstrap is a little bit older, and doesn't have ord or chr to test
04:42 sorear I could ask TimToady to check out an older version of test.pl, or manually delete the last stanza, but I've exceeded my willing-to-ask-favors limit already
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06:34 typepeter I have some questions about grammer. Is the grammer one kind of regex matching for lang parsing and behavior definitions?
06:38 typepeter I think it's a very great invention that can implement all the lang in perl6,because it abstract all things in language.
06:42 typepeter I do love it :D Though my friends which don't know the existence of perl6(even per5!!),i'll intro it to them
06:49 sorear Could you rephrase that?
06:52 sorear It is not clear what you mean by "one kind of regex matching"
06:56 typepeter oh,i see. i meant,is it one form to do regex matching when lang parsing and behavior definition? I just guess about it
06:58 sorear What do you mean by a form?
06:58 sorear Standard practice is more like grammar Numbers { rule TOP { <number>+ }; token number { \d+ } }; class NumActions { method TOP($/) { ... }; method number($/) {... } }
06:59 sorear So I guess no
06:59 sorear huh, my shiny new mono self-identifies as 2.11.  I guess I missed the release
07:06 typepeter Mm,i guess it's not equal to regex,but using regex matching actually:P
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07:14 typepeter if i would like to implement a subset of perl6,regex have to be implemented first,and grammer is required then.I guess they are the essential element.
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07:54 diakopter typepeter: yes, generally
07:56 typepeter Thank you :D thanks sorear,too
08:06 diakopter gee, I thub
08:10 sorear so I've installed mono 2.8.2
08:10 sorear good : the bootstrap niecza passes all tests
08:10 sorear bad: it hangs in the unload phase
08:25 diakopter (not for me)
08:25 diakopter wfm with 2GB ram
08:26 diakopter sorear: try it on the p6eval chroot, using the mono (fresh 2.8.2) installed to /home/p6eval/sprixel/clr
08:27 diakopter (don't use the system mono)
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09:21 dalek 6model: 017f52a | (Martin Berends)++ | java/runtime/ (3 files):
09:21 dalek 6model: [java/runtime] improve Makefile and diagnostics in catch blocks
09:21 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/017f52a27c
09:40 sorear diakopter: why not?  does it work? :)
09:43 sorear diakopter: Which machine does p6eval run on again?
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10:02 tadzik bah, feather downtime
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10:21 sorear hello tadzik
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10:34 rindolf Hi all.
10:40 tadzik hi
10:40 rindolf Hi tadzik
10:41 rindolf tadzik: what's up?
10:42 tadzik rindolf: not bad. Hard week coming, but I try to keep up
10:42 tadzik "EVERYONE: What versions of Mono should I test niecza on?"
10:42 tadzik sorear: 2.6.7 if you may
10:42 rindolf tadzik: ah.
10:42 rindolf tadzik: why would the week be hard>
10:42 rindolf ?
11:02 tadzik rindolf: 4 exams, 2 labolatories, one programming project to finish
11:05 dalek 6model: ef7ab8c | jonathan++ | java/compiler/NQPSetting.pm:
11:05 dalek 6model: [java] Add missing NQPCode to the fake/temp setting.
11:05 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/ef7ab8ca81
11:05 dalek 6model: c8ae83c | jonathan++ | java/runtime/Rakudo/Metamodel/SharedTable.java:
11:05 dalek 6model: [java] Correct capture construction for find_method call. And with this...hello world works on the JVM. \o/ mberends++
11:05 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/c8ae83cd53
11:05 rindolf tadzik: oh. :-S
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11:55 moritz_ tadzik: good luck
11:55 tadzik thanks moritz_
11:55 tadzik one of these is physics :)
11:56 rindolf tadzik: yes, good luck.
11:57 tadzik moritz_: how is ronja?
11:57 tadzik * Ronja
12:05 moritz_ tadzik: she's very well - no signs of infection left
12:05 moritz_ in fact once she starts drinking milk on her own, she can leave the hospital
12:07 rindolf moritz_: who is Ronja?
12:07 moritz_ rindolf: my little daughter, about 2 days old
12:07 rindolf moritz_: ah.
12:07 rindolf moritz_: mazal tov!
12:08 moritz_ thanks
12:08 rindolf Receiving objects:  76% (267766/352071), 64.64 MiB | 28 KiB/s
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13:06 dalek nqp-rx: e657b28 | bacek++ | / (2 files):
13:06 dalek nqp-rx: Add default value for  into RPA.join to follow Perl6 setting closely
13:06 dalek nqp-rx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/e657b280d6
13:11 dalek nqp-rx: 2613f07 | bacek++ | t/setting/01-resizablepmcarray.t:
13:11 dalek nqp-rx: Add test for RPA.map
13:11 dalek nqp-rx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/2613f07cb2
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13:53 Fredrek_j Helo, I was reading about perl5 TK and how the death of "the father of perl/Tk" Nick Ing-Simmons caused the development of perl/Tk to almost stop completely.. is that true that the death of one person can cause a very important modules to stop evolving?
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14:01 colomon It's certainly true that losing a key developer can be a huge setback.
14:03 colomon The perfect Perl 6 example is pugs.  It was by far the most successful early Perl 6 compiler, but when its key developer moved on elsewhere, no one else was able to pick up the reins, and it has languished ever since.
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14:07 colomon At the same time, modules which are actually very important will normally have someone take over, or another project replace them, just as Rakudo and Niecza have replaced pugs as the Perl 6 compilers of choice.
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14:27 tadzik oh, someone just updated Rakudo in Gentoo
14:29 jnthn Nice
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14:52 colomon \o/
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15:03 dalek nqp-rx/nom: c759804 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
15:03 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Get basic case of multi-subs in place. Just handles lexical case and multis in nested scopes are probably busted still.
15:03 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/c759804e85
15:03 dalek nqp-rx/nom: 46a10cd | jonathan++ | t/nqp/51-multi.t:
15:03 dalek nqp-rx/nom: Replace old multi-dispatch tests. Multi-method dispatch is now in a separate test file, added yesterday. 51-multi.t will now just test multi subs. Needs more tests, but does cover arity based dispatch and that the proto functions as it should - being called first then delegating to the multi-dispatcher.
15:03 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/46a10cde6e
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15:06 PerlJam colomon: re: losing key developers.  Right now I think Perl 6 could survive the loss of any single developer except perhaps TimToady.  (I don't see who would be his logical "second")
15:07 PerlJam I guess Perl 6 would survive, its evolution would just be stunted.
15:08 arnsholt A duumvirate of jnthn and pmichaud perhaps. With masak as court jester =)
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15:21 pmurias PerlJam: Perl 6 as a whole would survive, but individual implementations are more vulnerable
15:22 pmurias PerlJam: niecza withough sorear would have a very bleak future
15:22 PerlJam indeed.
15:23 payload hi. where can i look in the spec for the place of overwriting the behaviour of the + in +$a for a type foo?
15:24 payload ha, never mind... found it
15:24 jnthn S13
15:24 payload thanks
15:24 jnthn Overloading in Perl 6 is just multis. :)
15:25 jnthn Though actually overloading prefix:<+> is not really what you want to do in this case, I suspect.
15:25 jnthn If you want to control numification, just implement a method Numeric() { ... } in your type.
15:25 jnthn + just calls .Numeric.
15:26 payload Numeric? i would have done   multi method Int()
15:26 payload or multi method Num()
15:26 payload or both
15:26 payload or so
15:27 payload didnt know that there is a Numeric ^^
15:27 jnthn Numeric is the general "give me something that's number-ish" coercion.
15:27 jnthn .Num and .Int are coercions to a floating point and integer specifically.
15:31 payload in Rakudo Star      +(1..100000) does the job stupid and slow i think
15:31 payload i didnt test it with current HEAD
15:31 payload but i want to patch that ^^
15:32 jnthn rakudo: +(1..100000)
15:32 payload slow ^^
15:32 jnthn ...
15:32 p6eval rakudo 101491:  ( no output )
15:32 jnthn FAIL.
15:32 payload yes
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15:32 PerlJam That seems like LHF
15:32 payload succ and count
15:32 payload LHF?
15:32 jnthn rakudo: (1..100000).Numeric
15:32 PerlJam Low Hanging Fruit
15:32 payload yes
15:32 p6eval rakudo 101491:  ( no output )
15:32 PerlJam payload++
15:33 payload rakudo: (^10).to, (^10).max
15:33 p6eval rakudo 101491:  ( no output )
15:33 jnthn Go for it, but it shouldn't be overriding prefix:<+>, but rather one of the coercion methods.
15:33 payload rakudo: say (^10).to, (^10).max
15:33 p6eval rakudo 101491: OUTPUT«1010␤»
15:33 payload i also think one of them should return 9
15:33 payload same for .from and .min
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15:34 jnthn rakudo: (^10)>>.say
15:34 p6eval rakudo 101491: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤»
15:34 jnthn I agree. :)
15:34 jnthn That looks...odd.
15:34 payload but i cant decide which ^^
15:34 jnthn Hm
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15:36 payload i would go for .to .from, cause they are methods
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15:36 payload and just do $.max $.min
15:37 jnthn Oh, I felt the opposite.
15:37 jnthn It felt odd to me because
15:37 payload well
15:37 jnthn rakudo: (0,1,2,3,4).max.say; (^5).max.say;
15:37 p6eval rakudo 101491: OUTPUT«4␤5␤»
15:37 jnthn That difference is what bothers me a bit.
15:37 payload yes
15:37 jnthn Probably best to get more opinions before changing it.
15:38 PerlJam setting .min/.max appropriately gets rid of .excludes_min and .excludes_max
15:38 payload but this example makes it obvious
15:38 jnthn PerlJam: Possibly that too, yes.
15:39 jnthn payload: Feel free to propose a patch for this, but I'd like to see what others think before it's applied.
15:39 payload then the information of range definition with excludes is gone... but this isnt relevant i think
15:40 payload sure, will do
15:40 PerlJam except that it's currently used in alot of places.
15:40 jnthn I think we may depend on knowing that...I'm not sure off hand though.
15:40 jnthn PerlJam: Right.
15:40 jnthn For me the real conflict is that we make .max on a range mean something other than what Any.max means.
15:41 jnthn payload: I'd do the +(1..1000000) opt as a separate patch - that one is probably quite readily appliable.
15:42 * jnthn afk for a little bit
15:44 payload rakudo$ grep -Ri excl * # if this would show all places where the exclusion information is relevant, it is manageable
15:44 colomon The problem you guys are having with Ranges is you're not thinking of the non-Int cases.
15:44 payload uh, i have to download the test suite
15:45 payload well, i think of it
15:45 colomon 0..4 is not at all the same thing as 0..^5
15:45 payload a fallback to succ and count must be there
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15:49 colomon The information of excludes is very important to Range.
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15:50 masak oh hai #perl6!
15:50 rindolf masak: hai.
15:50 colomon o/
15:50 colomon so, can you tell us how many solutions you got yet?  ;)
15:51 masak I'm a bit behind on the whole contest thing. been moving house yesterday and today.
15:51 masak here's the plan for the next hour or so:
15:51 masak I'm going to go through the last batch of solutions and accept/reject.
15:52 masak then I'm going to write a blog post, describing the current status and the plan for the next week or so.
15:53 payload hmm, i want to write something like   if #( there is a infix:<-> for $a and $b )#   but i dont know how to write this check without going into exceptions
15:54 colomon payload: if $a ~~ Numeric and $b ~~ Numeric
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15:57 payload i have to think of the smartmatch more often
15:58 pmurias left #perl6
15:58 colomon mind you, that's not exactly saying "infix:<-> is available", but it's probably the closest approximation that doesn't involve invoking the multi dispatcher.
15:59 payload yes
15:59 masak rakudo: multi foo(Str) {}; multi foo(Int) {}; say &foo ~~ :(Str); say &foo ~~ :(Int); say &foo ~~ :(Bool)
15:59 p6eval rakudo 101491: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤Bool::False␤Bool::False␤»
15:59 * masak would like that to say TruenTruenFalse
15:59 colomon Actually, if $a ~~ Real && $b ~~ Real is probably closer to what you actually want.
16:01 flussence rakudo: multi foo(Str) {}; say :(Str) ~~ &foo;
16:01 p6eval rakudo 101491: OUTPUT«Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6MultiSub'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/hbj_maQcVh␤»
16:01 flussence :(
16:01 * colomon apparently is overusing "actually" this morning.
16:07 * arnsholt awaits masak++'s next blog post with bated breath
16:08 Bzek left #perl6
16:08 dalek rakudo: f3eb64f | KodiB++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
16:08 dalek rakudo: [release_guide] Added instructions for updating the leap-second tables.
16:08 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f3eb64fc29
16:10 Bzek joined #perl6
16:15 jnthn masak: Is that spec'd in the smartmatch table?
16:16 sftp joined #perl6
16:16 jnthn ah, seems so
16:16 jnthn Callable  Signature sig compatibility
16:17 sftp left #perl6
16:17 colomon ooo, sweet
16:18 jnthn rakudo: multi foo(Str) {}; multi foo(Int) {}; say any(&foo.candidates>>.signature>>.ACCEPTS(:(Str))
16:18 p6eval rakudo 101491: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
16:18 jnthn rakudo: multi foo(Str) {}; multi foo(Int) {}; say any(&foo.candidates>>.signature>>.ACCEPTS(:(Str)))
16:18 p6eval rakudo 101491: OUTPUT«any(Bool::False)␤»
16:18 masak huh.
16:18 jnthn rakudo: say :(Str) ~~ :(Str)
16:18 p6eval rakudo 101491: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
16:19 jnthn Oh
16:19 masak o.O
16:19 PerlJam heh
16:19 * masak submits rakudobug
16:19 jnthn Just NYI.
16:19 masak and probably LHF too :)
16:19 jnthn rakudo: say \("foo") ~~ :(Str)
16:19 p6eval rakudo 101491: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
16:19 jnthn rakudo: say \(42) ~~ :(Str)
16:19 p6eval rakudo 101491: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
16:19 jnthn Yeah
16:19 jnthn Capture ~~ Signautre is.
16:20 jnthn The Sig ~~ Sig and Callable ~~ Sig just ain't.
16:20 jnthn And yes, probably LHF if somebody is feeling hacky. :)
16:20 dalek roast: a2cd3d1 | (Kodi Arfer)++ | S02-builtin_data_types/bool.t:
16:20 dalek roast: [bool.t] Removed two fudged tests that were contradicted by unfudged tests.
16:20 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a2cd3d1df0
16:21 arnsholt masak: Oh, the deadline was friday not saturday. My bad =)
16:21 sftp joined #perl6
16:21 masak arnsholt: yeah. sorry about that.
16:21 arnsholt For some reason my mental calendar had "saturday", not the 14th
16:22 arnsholt My fault, not yours =)
16:22 masak but you're right -- it takes all five tasks to win anyway. and if there's any second prize (I don't know yet), it'll also go to a five-task contestant, I guess.
16:23 arnsholt Sounds fair
16:23 masak if I find the tuits, I might put people's non-accepted solutions on display as well. might be interesting from the viewpoint of nice code to look at.
16:25 masak colomon: now I can tell you how many solutions I got.
16:25 colomon \o/
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16:25 masak five per task, except for p4 which got six submissions, two of which are "second submissions".
16:25 cogno joined #perl6
16:27 masak five contestants have sent in accepted solutions. *four* contestants have sent in all five solutions.
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16:27 masak those four are colomon, fox, moritz_, and Util.
16:27 colomon fox?
16:28 masak that's what his email address line says.
16:28 masak ok, I'm going to have a good look at all the solutions, taking careful notes. (after I've blogged)
16:29 colomon oooo, if there's someone we haven't heard of sending in a full set of solutions, that's very cool!
16:30 masak matthias, who sent in four solutions, visited the channel the other day to fix a NYI in Rakudo :)
16:30 masak I have a question for everyone: would you prefer I divulged the winner directly after I've looked through the solutions but before I blog my analysis of each problem -- or should I blog the analyses first and then announce a winner? what do y'all think?
16:31 arnsholt I say keep us waiting
16:32 masak sure thing.
16:32 colomon I'm inclined to agree with arnsholt.
16:32 masak blogging the analyses might take between one and two weeks.
16:32 arnsholt If nothing else, having your analyses first gives a bit more context to how you determine the winner as well
16:32 colomon I'd rather get to look at the analyses without having my knowledge of who the winner was color things.
16:33 colomon also, you might discover that feedback on the blogposts might influence your decisions, too.
16:33 colomon whereas feedback post-decision would just be trouble.
16:33 colomon (if you know what I mean.)
16:34 Kodi As a student of the study of decision-making, I should point out that just writing the analyses, if you haven't decided already, might affect your decision. This can be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it.
16:34 masak Kodi: I have a feeling you're right. I haven't looked as closely as I want on all of the submissions yet.
16:40 payload left #perl6
16:40 masak oh, and now that we're past the stage where players can affect the contest, let me say one thing that I've wanted to say for weeks:
16:40 masak p4 is where all the action seems to be.
16:41 masak the other problems are relatively simple and straightforward for people. but p4 is where a lot of different solutions, none completely satisfactory, are put forward.
16:41 masak (oh, and I know the REAL solution!)
16:41 * masak hides
16:42 robins is now known as robinsmidsrod
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16:44 spetrea what's up ?
16:44 masak roof. clouds. sky. :)
16:45 flussence aaaaaand my .indent pass rate: 8 oks out of 15
16:45 flussence (yes, I haven't forgotten I was doing it)
16:45 masak flussence: nice! what seems to be the blocker for the rest?
16:46 flussence working on this one at the moment: not ok 5 - If a line contains too few spaces, only those should be removed
16:46 flussence it seems like it unindents the first line and gives up
16:46 * flussence pastes it somewhere
16:47 flussence https://gist.github.com/781939
16:48 dju left #perl6
16:49 PerlJam What's with the eval?
16:49 envi left #perl6
16:49 flussence I couldn't get it to figure out what 0..$outdent meant using plain code, that's a workaround :/
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16:50 PerlJam oh
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16:54 masak flussence: it seems to me that you're doing the "check spaces-only or not" check on all lines at once. I read the spec as saying it should be done on each line individually.
16:55 flussence that's the simplest case, if that check fails it's supposed to fall through to the "..." (which will do something smarter with each line :)
16:57 flussence I guess I forgot to put on line 47 a check that none of the lines starts with a \t...
16:58 masak I mean that I see nothing in the spec about checking the lines together. only about checking them individually.
16:59 * flussence takes another look
16:59 masak another way of saying that is that it should be possible to comb whole lines, call a helper sub on each line, and then join them back.
17:01 flussence S32/Str:600 says to keep the indent scheme consistent if all lines start the same way, that doesn't appear to apply to the outdenting part...
17:02 flussence I think I might be making this more complicated than it needs to be :)
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17:03 masak flussence: no, S32/Str:600 only talks about the current line.
17:04 flussence ...I think I might've misunderstood "if these are all the same". whoops.
17:07 masak flussence: if you have any suggestions how to make the spec less ambiguous, I'll happily apply them.
17:11 flussence the "if these are all the same" got me... might be clearer if it explicitly says "for each line" somewhere
17:13 flussence "if the line's indent consists of a single type of space", though that sounds a bit long-winded to me.
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17:19 PerlJam flussence: I think your $prefix calculation is a little off.  Sometimes tab characters will contribute less than $?TABSTOP spaces to the calculation.    (just in case you weren't aware of it)
17:20 flussence I'd thought of that, but the way I interpreted the spec is to just assume they aren't elastic-width
17:21 masak they are.
17:21 flussence hm
17:24 masak I guess that only matters when tab characters are exploded during an unindent.
17:24 PerlJam basically.
17:24 masak man, this is tricky. I'm starting to think .indent is a really useful function because it abstracts away a lot of details like this :)
17:27 flussence ok so if I understand right now, (~@lines).indent($n) should be the same as @lines».indent($n) ?
17:27 flussence i.e. the lines don't affect each other?
17:28 flussence (apart from indent(*))
17:30 masak correct.
17:30 masak it's as if each line had its own indent character policy.
17:32 PerlJam that and you really meant @lines.join.indent($n) since ~@lines will join them with a single space in between  :)
17:32 flussence also, is there an easy way to write the first line of the function so it'll make an array of each line's /^^ (\s*) (\N*) (\n?)/ bits?
17:32 flussence PerlJam: I'm always getting those two things mixed up :)
17:34 PerlJam flussence: that's okay, at least you can focus on something for more than a minute such that you accomplish something.   I'm too easily distracted.
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18:37 masak suddenly everyone is writing Sinatra in Perl 6 :)
18:39 MayDaniel left #perl6
18:39 jnthn Well, to be Frank, it is awesome.
18:39 masak :P
18:39 masak jnthn: one of your sharpest in a long time. :)
18:40 masak especially since the sentence has two meanings.
18:46 masak (hm. that didn't come out quite right. it's not altogether uncommon for puns to have two meanings.) :)
18:49 jnthn :P
18:52 masak "I like this optical illusion -- especially the fact that it can be seen in two ways..."
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19:13 lue hello zebra PiRats o/
19:14 masak \o
19:18 masak what's up with the spelling of the word "aesthetics"? is it "aesthetics", or is it "æsthetics"?
19:19 lue I would go with 'ae' unless you enjoy your ligatures. [I've actually never seen it spelt with æ until just now]
19:19 masak I've seen it spelt with just the 'e' sometimes.
19:20 masak I guess I'm just confused about what preferred and what isn't.
19:20 jnthn masak: It's a weird word. It looks right to me with the "e"
19:21 * masak .oO( "a wæird word" )
19:21 jnthn :P
19:21 jnthn Or at least, at school I was taught to spell it aesthetics, anyways. :)
19:21 lue I honestly don't think it matters whether it's ae or æ, it'll be the same word [people don't get in an uproar over wikipædia :)]
19:22 jnthn From Wikipedia, it looks like it was probably put into English from German.
19:22 masak ah.
19:23 jnthn Yeah, looks like it's the same as when ä in Swedish sometimes gets translitted as ae
19:24 jnthn To me it looks mis-spelt without the a at the start, tbh.
19:24 masak good to know.
19:24 jnthn But I don't think I could objectively call it wrong either.
19:25 lue Maybe you should conſider uſing a long s?
19:26 jnthn I don't þink so. :P
19:28 masak tempting, ðough...
19:29 shi left #perl6
19:30 lue There used to be an old rule where you had to use an umlaut to designate another syllable when it could be read as one, such as coördinate.
19:31 masak never really liked that spelling :)
19:32 masak though I'm fine with it in "naïve"
19:32 jnthn Oh, *that's* what the unlaut in that word means.
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19:34 sorear good * #perl6
19:34 lue Oh, English. Your crazy idiosyncracies never fail to amuse us.
19:34 lue hello sorear o/
19:34 Alias left #perl6
19:35 sorear mm, coördinate
19:35 masak g'whatever, sorear.
19:35 * sorear always thought Einstein made that one up
19:35 * masak has blogged: http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/th​e-perl-6-coding-contest-is-now-closed
19:36 simcop2387 left #perl6
19:37 jnthn EWWW!
19:37 colomon masak: so glad to be part of "the people".   ;)
19:37 masak :D
19:38 * jnthn decides not to compete with a worse analogy in his forthcoming blog post
19:42 lue .oO(We're getting five restaurant critiques highlighting the best of all the ad-hoc restaurants built in the commercial sector of Camelia-land)
19:43 * moritz_ back
19:44 masak moritz_! \o/
19:44 jnthn o/ moritz_
19:44 lue hello moritz_ o/
19:44 colomon \o
19:44 colomon moritz_: everything still going okay?
19:45 moritz_ colomon: yep, first steps towards breast feeding showed success
19:45 colomon \o/
19:46 masak \o/
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19:54 lue rakudo: my @a = [1,2],[3,4]; say @a[0][1]; say @a[0;1]
19:55 p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«2␤3 4␤»
19:55 * lue checks if that bug is reported
19:55 masak lue: it's simply a TODO
19:55 masak lue: @a[0;1] is treated as @a[1] because ; in .[] isn't implemented
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19:58 willco http://codepad.org/CSe2YH1I
19:58 willco anybody have any idea why this doesn't work? it's killing me.
19:58 willco it just outputs a single ':'
19:59 masak willco: hi, this is #perl6.
19:59 masak when we're in an exceptionally good mood, we give Perl 5 support. but it's not really the channel for that.
20:00 masak try #perlhelp on irc.perl.org
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20:30 dalek 6model: 74c1fc0 | jonathan++ | overview.pod:
20:30 dalek 6model: [docs] Add an overview of 6model.
20:30 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/74c1fc0065
20:36 dalek 6model: 0419a1f | jonathan++ | overview.pod:
20:36 dalek 6model: [docs] Try and get something that renders nicer with GitHub's POD renderer.
20:36 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/0419a1f121
20:38 dalek 6model: c0a00fa | jonathan++ | overview.pod:
20:38 dalek 6model: [docs] Tssk. Next time I just write plain text. Or HTML.
20:38 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/c0a00faa6c
20:38 masak :)
20:39 jnthn OK, now it looks non-awful. :)
20:39 dalek roast: 2769a7c | moritz++ | S0 (2 files):
20:39 dalek roast: fudge relation.t for niecza
20:39 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2769a7c900
20:39 * moritz_ forgot to push that commit
20:39 moritz_ niecza: say +'24'
20:39 p6eval niecza v1-149-g56c80b0: OUTPUT«Can't open perl script "niecza_eval": No such file or directory␤»
20:39 moritz_ urks
20:40 tri left #perl6
20:42 wolverian jnthn: s/stratergies/strategies/
20:43 lue afk
20:44 dalek evalbot: 83a6deb | moritz++ | / (2 files):
20:44 dalek evalbot: niecza now uses "make", and the executable is different
20:44 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/83a6debdff
20:45 dalek 6model: 7d4f8de | jonathan++ | overview.pod:
20:45 dalek 6model: [docs] Typo spotted by wolverian++.
20:45 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/7d4f8de2d3
20:46 jnthn .oO( shudda spellchuck )
20:49 tadzik o/
20:49 aindilis joined #perl6
20:50 masak "loopy"! \o/
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21:03 * moritz_ is curious for the new idioms that masak++ has mentioned on his blog
21:08 araujo joined #perl6
21:12 masak I'll be sure to highlight them properly when I post.
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21:17 moritz_ hurry up!
21:17 moritz_ oh, two new chapters of HPatMoR
21:17 masak ooh
21:18 arnsholt colomon: BTW, I messed up on the p6cc deadline, so if you want to look at my p4 code, I'll have to put it somewhere =)
21:18 * masak is currently watching Evil Dead III: Army of Darkness, indirectly referenced in MoR
21:21 masak the movie's bad in a slightly enjoyable way :)
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21:27 pracacc001 rakudo: "helo".say
21:27 p6eval rakudo f3eb64: OUTPUT«helo␤»
21:27 moritz_ masak: have you found the RSS feed for HPatMoR?
21:27 dual joined #perl6
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21:27 moritz_ http://demented.no-ip.org/~​feep/rss_proxy.cgi?5782108 # soemtimes down, but quite reliable when up
21:29 masak moritz_: aye, I have. but I haven't checked my Reader today.
21:30 colomon arnsholt: oh no!  please do put it up somewhere...
21:30 colomon Army of Darkness!
21:33 arnsholt colomon: http://heim.ifi.uio.no/arnskj/p6cc2010/p4/code is the frontend code, http://heim.ifi.uio.no/arnsk​j/p6cc2010/p4/lib/Kayles.pm is the fun stuff
21:33 arnsholt From the directory names, the rest of my code should be trivially findable if you're interested =)
21:34 moritz_ that's cheating, you used THEORY!
21:34 moritz_ :-)
21:34 * justatheory coughs
21:34 masak arnsholt++
21:35 masak arnsholt: now I'm even more sorry you didn't make the deadline! :-|
21:35 arnsholt moritz_: Why, thank you =)
21:35 moritz_ arnsholt: :-)
21:35 arnsholt As I mentioned to colomon the other day, I went kinda bananas on the research on p4
21:35 masak arnsholt: seeing the work "kayles" there tells me I want to look closer at your solution.
21:36 arnsholt But it was an interesting field to look into
21:36 masak arnsholt: yes, that was the idea. it'll be interesting to write up p4.
21:36 arnsholt I vaguely knew of the field, but it was cool to learn a bit more
21:36 moritz_ I lacked the initial knowledge, so I had basically no idea what to search for
21:36 arnsholt masak: I was happy it was normal play kayles though. Misere play would have been a lot harder
21:37 masak misere play doesn't Grundy at all, IIUC.
21:37 arnsholt I didn't know either actually, I was just struck by the idea that "this sounds like perfect play should be possible"
21:37 arnsholt So I just noodled around on Wikipeda after christmas until I found it
21:37 masak :)
21:38 arnsholt Yeah, from my tidbits of research making it misere instantly makes the game harder, more or less
21:38 masak the ending of Army of Darkness was as random as the rest of the movie :P
21:39 arnsholt I really wanted to implement the n log n matrix chain algorithm as well, but since the paper is > 100 pages long I decided DP was enough
21:39 masak "Oh no! I slept too long! Haaahahahahahah!"
21:39 moritz_ Misere game sounds like Antichess to me :-)
21:39 masak arnsholt: DP was what I was hoping people would go for.
21:40 arnsholt moritz_: Yeah, essentially. The player who has no move left wins
21:40 sorear Who currently has trouble with building Niecza?
21:40 arnsholt masak: Yeah, it's the obvious solution (at least to my eyes)
21:40 arnsholt I instantly thought "oh, I'll just use CKY parsing" =)
21:41 * moritz_ suddenly feels so dumb
21:42 masak arnsholt: "CKY parsing"?
21:42 masak moritz_: why?
21:42 arnsholt CKY is a DP CFG parsing algorithm
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21:42 jnthn moritz_: fwiw, I haven't understood almost any of the last 4 screenfulls. :)
21:42 arnsholt In this context it means my matrix chain solver was a bottom up DP algorithm
21:43 moritz_ masak: because I missed some readily available theory on a subject, and handed in a quite imperfect solution
21:43 arnsholt Starting by finding the costs for adjacent pairs of matrices, and working its way upwards through bracketings
21:43 masak moritz_: don't worry, everyone did. you all blew p4, except arnsholt who blew the deadline... :)
21:43 moritz_ masak: :-)
21:43 masak arnsholt: you do realize that you're up for at least an honourable mention... :)
21:44 arnsholt Thank you =)
21:44 masak arnsholt: yes, exactly. I didn't know there was a name for that. gotta look up CKY...
21:44 arnsholt Also, you should use the "everyone blew p4 ..." line. It has a nice ring to it
21:44 masak :)
21:44 masak oh, I'm going to have such a field day with p4.
21:44 moritz_ masak: actually I tried a DP solution for p4, and failed
21:45 masak I can imagine.
21:45 arnsholt CKY is just one application of the technique, I think. But it's an interesting algorithm
21:45 arnsholt A bit limited in that it only does binary branching grammars, but oh well
21:45 masak anyone who likes can consider the secret agenda of this whole contest being to spring Sprague-Grundy theory on people :)
21:45 masak it's an "only works once" trick. :P
21:45 arnsholt In that case, consider me educated =)
21:46 masak arnsholt: binary branching grammars fit quite well with binary operators :)
21:46 moritz_ arnsholt: well, you can always use Chomsky normalization to get the grammar in binary branching form
21:47 arnsholt Yeah, Chomsky normalisation is usually mentioned right before or right after SKY is introduced
21:47 masak huh? SKY or CKY?
21:47 arnsholt But it's not always desireable, especially because IIRC the grammars are only weakly equivalent
21:47 arnsholt Er, CKY. Typo
21:47 pmurias sorear: i had problems compiling the mono from github, but niecza works on 2.8.1
21:48 moritz_ arnsholt: actually CKY is the only reason that Chomsky normalization is taught at all :-)
21:48 arnsholt And if you're parsing a natural language grammar, converting to CNF may lose some of the structures you're interested in
21:48 arnsholt Yeah. The whole binary-branching thing makes the linguist part in me cry
21:48 arnsholt I had to read up on it for a course I took. It's so ridiculous! >.<
21:48 moritz_ just consider it isomorphic to...
21:49 moritz_ that's like "it all makes perfect sense in n-dimensional space" :-)
21:49 arnsholt Oh, and about feeling stupid, I tried to read up about the Ising model earlier today. Didn't exactly feel very clever either then =)
21:49 jnthn I blug! http://6guts.wordpress.com/2011/01/16/nqp-and​-6model-big-steps-forward-on-parrot-and-jvm/
21:49 sorear pmurias: I thought you said earlier that it was non-functional on 2.8.1
21:49 sorear something about Array.keys
21:49 moritz_ arnsholt: I never understood the analytical solution of 2D Ising model either :-)
21:50 arnsholt I didn't understand any of it, more or less =)
21:50 arnsholt I think I'mstarting to get graphical models, though
21:52 arnsholt jnthn: Excellent, the English language needs more strong verbs!
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21:54 moritz_ it dus
21:55 masak it dudn't!
21:56 pmurias sorear: sorry it works on 2.8.2
21:57 pmurias it's non functional on 2.8.1
22:03 masak I'm on mono 2.6.7, and niecza doesn't build here.
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22:04 tadzik oh, 6model LHF!
22:05 jnthn You know you want to.
22:06 tadzik riiight
22:07 * jnthn cheers on tadzik :)
22:07 masak moritz_: which mono version did you have again?
22:08 moritz_ masak: 2.6.7-4
22:08 moritz_ (where the -4 is Debian specific, iirc)
22:08 masak moritz_: can you build niecza?
22:08 tadzik I have 2.6.7 and I can build, but not run
22:09 moritz_ masak: yes
22:09 tadzik well, I can run, but I can't Helloworld :)
22:09 masak I'm getting "MSBUILD: error MSBUILD0003: Please specify the project or solution file to build, as none was found in the current directory."
22:10 moritz_ masak: you need to use 'make' now
22:10 moritz_ not xbuild anymore
22:10 masak oh.
22:10 masak right, it's even in the README.pod
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22:10 masak moritz_++
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22:39 snarkyboojum moritz_: congrats on the healthy bub and healthy mum :)
22:40 * dukeleto submitted a talk to PGCon 2011 about PL/Perl6 today
22:41 dukeleto moritz_: congrats!
22:41 MayDaniel left #perl6
22:41 dukeleto jnthn: i am reuding your blug
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22:47 jnthn dukeleto: :)
22:49 dukeleto jnthn: thanks for writing a 6model overview!
22:49 jnthn dukeleto: Hope it makes sense. :)
22:49 dukeleto jnthn: i will let you know if it doesn't :)
22:49 jnthn :)
22:49 jnthn OK, sleep time for me tomorrow...gotta get up earlyish.
22:49 kaare_ left #perl6
22:49 jnthn wtf
22:50 jnthn ...how did the tomorrow end up 4 words too early? :S
22:50 jnthn sleep &
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22:52 masak that's simply how early tomorrow comes :)
22:59 vmspb left #perl6
23:00 masak sorear: I think tonight's attempt to build niecza has taught me that giving Virtualbox 1024 MB of RAM isn't enough.
23:00 masak the build hasn't failed yet, but it seems to have reached some kind of swapping plateau.
23:00 * masak decides to try again tomorrow with more RAM
23:00 masak 'night, #perl6.
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23:19 snarkyboojum how does one run the test harness for Niecza now?
23:20 snarkyboojum t/run_spectests was working.. but I guess needs to be updated now there's not niecza_eval around anymore?
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