Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-01-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 dukeleto colomon: GMP peeps find lots of bugs in compilers
00:04 colomon there was also the problem that they use a struct locally for their basic type.  there's no way to handle that in zavolaj, so far as I know.  so I'd have to do an interface layer to do anything with it.
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00:14 Tene jnthn: any hopes of addressing C structs for C interop with 6model? ;)
00:15 jnthn A pointer to a struct, or a struct allocated on the stack?
00:16 * Tene prods colomon
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00:16 colomon struct allocated on the stack
00:16 jnthn Hmm. Maybe harder.
00:16 jnthn Anyway, nothing magical in 6model "out of the box" but it probably makes it easier to implement such things.
00:17 jnthn I do want to do structs support in Zavolaj
00:17 jnthn That and callbacks are the two "big tricky things". :)
00:18 colomon :)
00:18 colomon oh, hey, as long as I've got y'all here -- how do I do the equivalent of a destructor in Rakudo?
00:18 jnthn Tssk, I just figured out how to do roles in nqp-rx/nom but it took a whole bottle of beer.
00:18 colomon beer++
00:19 colomon DESTROY?
00:19 * jnthn looks disappointedly at the empty bottle. How did all drain away so fast... :)
00:19 jnthn colomon: Yes, but I don't think any implementation actually implements it so far.
00:19 colomon oh.
00:19 jnthn colomon: Also, it's not very deterministic when it's called.
00:19 colomon yeah, I figured the non-deterministic bit.
00:19 colomon well, then the memory leaks are someone else's fault.  :)
00:21 jnthn colomon: If you prod me enough I may sneak it in while doing the 6model bits.
00:21 colomon prod, prod
00:21 jnthn No, when I'm working on them. :P
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00:21 jnthn Anyway, I'll try and remember. :)
00:21 jnthn I'll just want to have a way that you can do some registration of such a thing in the meta-object in a cross-vm way.
00:22 jnthn (which will map down to the vm's world view, of course)
00:23 sorear colomon: The reason GMP is awesome is that you don't need Zavolaj.  pir::new(<BigInt>)
00:23 colomon Is that still functional?
00:23 sorear Probably not
00:24 jnthn It's awesome until you want the code to work on backends other than Parrot. :)
00:25 colomon Is Zavolaj going to work on backends other than Parrot?
00:25 colomon ;)
00:26 jnthn colomon: Yeah...that's why I encourage people to target it. So we can port one tricky thingummy that a load of modules are implemented in terms of, rather than port a load modules.
00:26 colomon jnthn++
00:26 jnthn (And yes, it *will* be darn tricky to port. :))
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00:27 jnthn OK, I think I can get nqp-rx/nom's roles done in the next few days, and then I'll be in position to branch Rakudo and start the work there. :)
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00:28 sorear Does zavolaj have a spec?
00:28 sorear Wait
00:28 sorear You got pmichaud to ok ROLES?
00:28 jnthn I won ROLES IN NQP. The end guy was hard. :P
00:29 jnthn sorear: No, it's more a proposal for what could be spec apart from I don't want it to be in its current state.
00:29 jnthn It's not good enough yet.
00:29 lue hello zebras! o/ Actual Math™ is fun!
00:30 jnthn Zavolaj was mostly written with mberends++ in the space of about 2 days while I was in the process of moving to a new country. :)
00:30 sorear I need to learn to be annoying and demanding like you. :P
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00:30 jnthn sorear: :P
00:30 colomon (annoying and demanding)++
00:30 colomon seriously though, roles in nqp?!?
00:31 sorear colomon: correctly parsing Perl 6 requires grammar mixins.  I tried to convince pmichaud of this months ago, but I'm not jnthn.
00:31 sorear niecza: my $foo = 12; say Q:s"$foo { 2 + 2 }"
00:31 p6eval niecza v1-201-ga87fbf8: OUTPUT«12 { 2 + 2 }␤»
00:32 jnthn colomon: Two big reasons. 1) mix-ins to the grammar, so we can get language tweaks properly scoped. 2) I want to factor Rakudo's meta-model in terms of roles.
00:32 sorear jnthn: What don't you like about Zavolaj?
00:32 jnthn Guess that means I should read http://scg.unibe.ch/archive/pape​rs/Duca05ySafeMetaclassTrait.pdf again :)
00:32 sorear Why don't you want it copied in its current state?
00:33 jnthn sorear: Using the uppercase types rather than native ones felt kinda wrong to me. Or at least, I would want uppercase ones to mean something else, maybe. Something more referency (e.g. Int is pass a pointer to an int, whereas int is pass an int).
00:33 sorear btw. I'd appreciate someone looking over niecza:docs/announce.v2 this weekend
00:34 jnthn sorear: But don't have the lowercase ones in Rakudo yet...
00:34 jnthn So I used what was there :)
00:35 jnthn sorear: Also at the moment passing a type object should probably be the way to pass NULL, not the "use pir::null()" hack
00:35 jnthn sorear: The overall idea I like (e.g. is native('libname')
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00:35 jnthn sorear: Just some details are a bit off, imho.
00:37 jnthn sorear: I read the announce when you committed it. It looked fine.
00:38 jnthn BTW, on quoting pmichaud++ came up with a non-role factoring that I actually prefer to the role-based on in STD, even if I do love roles. :)
00:39 jnthn But we really need them for many other pieces.
00:40 jnthn .oO( This is gonna be the 4th roles implementation I've done. It'll be the rightest yet... )
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00:43 gfldex jnthn: keep on rolling!
00:44 jnthn :D
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00:46 * jnthn 's talks for OSDC.TW are confirmed. o/
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00:55 * jnthn -> sleep
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02:56 VaccinalBowl Ok. What is this?
02:56 VaccinalBowl Where am I?
02:58 VaccinalBowl IS this the contribution page?
02:59 sorear This is a chatroom.
02:59 sorear It is the official Perl 6 chatroom.
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02:59 sorear What are you looking for?
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03:22 dalek niecza: 02d7c0d | sorear++ | docs/nam.pod:
03:22 dalek niecza: Update nam.pod with current list of names
03:22 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/02d7c0d5ec
03:31 colomon pugs: say [*] 1..50
03:31 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«304140932017133780436126081660​64768844377641568960512000000000000␤»
03:38 colomon pugs: my @fib = 1, 1; say ~@a
03:38 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    expecting "::"␤    Variable "@a" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤    at /tmp/CKkwOMkTRN line 1, column 24␤»
03:38 colomon pugs: my @fib = 1, 1; say ~@a;
03:38 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected ";"␤    expecting "::"␤    Variable "@a" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤    at /tmp/PaD95Uersu line 1, column 24␤»
03:38 colomon pugs: my @fib = (1, 1); say ~@a;
03:38 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected ";"␤    expecting "::"␤    Variable "@a" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤    at /tmp/_UjJ_EzyUy line 1, column 26␤»
03:39 colomon pugs: my @fib = (1, 1); say ~@fib;
03:39 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1 1␤»
03:39 colomon pugs: my @fib = (1, 1); for 2..200 -> $i { @fib[$i] = @fib[$i-1] + @fib[$i-2]; };  say ~@fib;
03:39 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765 10946 17711 28657 46368 75025 121393 196418 317811 514229 832040 1346269 2178309 3524578 5702887 9227465 14930352 24157817 39088169 63245986 102334155 165580141 267914296 433494437 701408733 1134903170 1836311903 29…
03:40 colomon pugs: my @fib = (1, 1); for 2..200 -> $i { @fib[$i] = @fib[$i-1] + @fib[$i-2]; };  say @fib[*-1];
03:40 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1␤»
03:40 colomon pugs: my @fib = (1, 1); for 2..200 -> $i { @fib[$i] = @fib[$i-1] + @fib[$i-2]; };  say @fib[-1];
03:40 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«4539736941653079531​97296969697410619233826␤»
03:40 colomon pugs: my @fib = (1, 1); for 2..200 -> $i { @fib[$i] = @fib[$i-1] + @fib[$i-2]; };  say @fib[200];
03:40 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«4539736941653079531​97296969697410619233826␤»
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03:41 sorear colomon: haskell has bigints built in
03:41 colomon sorear: yes, that's why I'm using pugs to calculate what my results should be.  :)
03:42 colomon and yes, I'm getting the same results.
03:44 sorear Are you adding transparent bigints?
03:44 colomon "Transparent"?
03:44 sorear rakudo: 2**80
03:44 p6eval rakudo 549d2a:  ( no output )
03:44 sorear rakudo: say 2**80
03:44 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«1.20892581961463e+24␤»
03:45 sorear When you're done, will that print the right answer?
03:45 colomon What I'm working on right now is a Math::BigInt class -- just an experiment with BigInts in Rakudo and Zavolaj.
03:46 colomon In the long run, obviously, I'd like to make Rakudo's Int behave this way.
03:48 colomon so for instance, the fib code is
03:48 colomon my @fib := Math::BigInt.new(1), Math::BigInt.new(1), *+* ... *;
03:50 colomon hmmm... for a very quick approximation, calculating exact 50! and 201st Fib number is about 6x slower than doing the calculations using Nums.  (In Rakudo.)
03:52 colomon pugs: say 2**80;
03:52 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1208925819614629174706176␤»
03:55 colomon rakudo: say ~(12, 15, * % * ... 1)
03:56 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
03:56 colomon duh
03:56 colomon rakudo: say ~(12, 15, * % * ... 0)
03:56 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«12 15 12 3 0␤»
03:56 colomon rakudo: say ~(12, 16, * % * ... 0)
03:57 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«12 16 12 4 0␤»
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04:01 colomon afk # bed
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05:08 diakopter perlesque: say(1234567890098765432100123456789​97575839278972398796010192837409871​309871039846784749863018970193847)
05:08 p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«12345678900987654321001234567​899757583927897239879601019283740987​1309871039846784749863018970193847␤»
05:08 diakopter perlesque: say(1234567890098765432100123456789975758392789​72398796010192837409871309871039846784749863018​970193847/5789437879384759876675403928790283704​96098473029872039487509834702987509872039487)
05:08 p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«213244863459863607␤»
05:08 diakopter perlesque: say(1234567890098765432100123456789​97575839278972398796010192837409871​309871039846784749863018970193847 % 57894378793847598766754039287902837049609​8473029872039487509834702987509872039487)
05:08 p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«unhandled node type: <invalid>␤Statement_list 1␤ <invalid> <unexpected: [@23,232:232=')',<14>,2:187], resync=sub say(object $z) {Console.WriteLine($z)};
05:08 p6eval ..5789437879384759876675…
05:08 diakopter oh, %
05:09 diakopter sorear: I guess the trick to transparent BigInts is to trap overflows and retry multiplications and additions after upconverting
05:10 sorear diakopter: rakudo already does that
05:10 sorear rakudo: say (10**8).WHAT
05:10 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
05:10 sorear rakudo: say (10**18).WHAT
05:10 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
05:11 sorear just need to change Num to BigInt
05:11 sorear (except that BigInt isn't a distinct type)
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07:18 dalek niecza: bc5d7f7 | sorear++ | docs/nam.pod:
07:18 dalek niecza: Start documenting file layout for nam
07:18 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/bc5d7f7106
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07:21 * sorear out
07:21 sorear I plan to spend most of the weekend working on nam.pod
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07:26 TimToady I'm spending the entire weekend flying to Kharagpur...
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08:21 moritz_ good morning
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09:12 diakopter o/
09:17 moritz_ \o
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10:13 masak ahoj, #perl6!
10:16 * masak will spend most of today working on the sekkrit project
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10:23 moritz_ is p4 review a sekkrit now? :-)
10:27 coldhead i think he means perl7
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10:30 masak the scaffolding for the pre-posts for p4 is a sekkrit :P
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10:31 moritz_ phenny: tell mberends I hope you'll join us for lunch tomorrow (if you happen to arrive around lunch time)
10:31 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when mberends is around.
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11:35 jnthn o/ #perl6
11:35 masak \o jnthn
11:35 jnthn ohayo
11:35 jnthn ...for liberal values of morning... :)
11:36 masak :P
11:36 * jnthn accidentally the whole morning with sleep
11:37 jnthn Though I have to get up and teach every morning next week, so it was probably a good idea to get caught up. :)
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11:37 moritz_ what are you going to teach?
11:38 jnthn moritz_: ASP.NET this time...though the course pre-reqs are sufficiently low that the course also includes a chunk of what OOP is too...
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11:39 moritz_ fun
11:39 jnthn I'll try not to leave them with a totally messed up view of OO.
11:39 tadzik „because, you know, civilized people use roles, but...”
11:39 jnthn "What is a class, you ask? A class is precisely what it's meta-class says it is."
11:39 jnthn *its
11:40 jnthn Anyway, should be a relatively easy course. :)
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11:41 jnthn To teach, anyways. :)
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11:44 masak "A class is what you're all attending. Duh."
11:45 jnthn "Don't object to OO!"
11:45 masak "Just role with it!"
11:49 * moritz_ can't scope with it
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11:49 dalek specs: 54a6ea1 | moritz++ | S19-commandline.pod:
11:49 dalek specs: [S19] unfossile -a
11:49 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/54a6ea1a89
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12:20 masak rakudo: sub foo { return a => [ b => 0, c => 0, d => 0 ] }; say foo().perl
12:20 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«"a" => Any␤»
12:20 masak ok, what am I missing here? why is it Any?
12:21 masak it should at least be an empty Array or List, no?
12:21 tadzik rakudo:  [ b => 0, c => 0, d => 0 ].WHAT.say
12:21 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«Array()␤»
12:21 tadzik rakudo:  [ b => 0, c => 0, d => 0 ].perl.say
12:21 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«["b" => 0, "c" => 0, "d" => 0]␤»
12:21 masak rakudo: sub foo { my @a = b => 0, c => 0, d => 0; return a => @a }; say foo().perl
12:21 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«"a" => Any␤»
12:22 masak rakudo: sub foo { my $a = [ b => 0, c => 0, d => 0 ]; return a => $a }; say foo().perl
12:22 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«"a" => Any␤»
12:22 masak rakudo: sub foo { my $a = [ b => 0, c => 0, d => 0 ]; return (a => $a) }; say foo().perl
12:22 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«"a" => ["b" => 0, "c" => 0, "d" => 0]␤»
12:22 masak huh.
12:23 masak rakudo: sub foo { return (a => [ b => 0, c => 0, d => 0 ]) }; say foo().perl
12:23 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«"a" => ["b" => 0, "c" => 0, "d" => 0]␤»
12:23 masak "parens are only grouping", yeah right :P
12:25 tadzik :D
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13:07 moritz_ ... except where they are not
13:08 masak ...including the places where, for some reason, you have you use double parens... :)
13:09 moritz_ jnthn: how do I print the type of an object that inherits from NQPMu?
13:10 moritz_ .WHAT returns a RakudoObject which doesn't have a get_string vtable
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13:14 moritz_ ah, $thing.HOW.name($thing)
13:17 jnthn yes, that
13:18 jnthn But to NQPMu you can add a multi method Str(NQPMu:U $self:) { $self.HOW.name($self) }
13:18 jnthn With the appropraite proto
13:18 jnthn Then .Str will work
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13:19 jnthn I think you can even copy-paste it from 6model repo: common/NQP/P6Objects.pm
13:20 moritz_ ok
13:26 moritz_ jnthn: should I also copy .isa()?
13:27 * moritz_ just does it, impatient as he is
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13:28 jnthn moritz_: Yes, feel free. :)
13:29 dalek nqp-rx/nom: 481de03 | moritz++ | src/cheats/nqp-builtins.pir:
13:29 dalek nqp-rx/nom: return 0 from failed ok()
13:29 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/481de03afb
13:29 dalek nqp-rx/nom: d26843d | moritz++ | src/stage0/ (4 files):
13:29 dalek nqp-rx/nom: update bootstrap
13:29 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/d26843d520
13:29 dalek nqp-rx/nom: a82ee69 | moritz++ | src/metamodel/how/NQPMu.pm:
13:29 dalek nqp-rx/nom: port .Str and .isa from 6model to NQPMu
13:29 dalek nqp-rx/nom: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/a82ee698ad
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13:44 moritz_ jnthn: trouble with array attributes: http://nopaste.snit.ch/29392
13:46 jnthn nqp: class A {
13:46 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 1␤current instr.: 'parrot;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 2358 (src/Regex/Cursor.pir:232)␤»
13:46 jnthn gah
13:46 jnthn nqp: class A {  has @!x; method pushx($a) { pir::push(@!x, $a); say(pir::join('|', @!x)); } }; A.new.pushx('42');
13:46 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«␤»
13:46 moritz_ works with lexical arrays, fwiw
13:47 moritz_ do I need to initialize with an RPA?
13:47 jnthn Hmm. So it's not a regression from nqp-rx, but hardly helpful.
13:47 jnthn Yeah, that may do it. But...should really fix this too.
13:47 jnthn nqpclr: exists?
13:48 jnthn Aw. :)
13:48 jnthn I suspect it is auto-viv fail though.
13:49 moritz_ yep, @!x := []; helps
13:49 moritz_ I can open an nqp issue for you if you want
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13:51 jnthn moritz_: plz
13:53 moritz_ done https://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/issues/issue/12
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14:08 jnthn moritz_: Thanks. And meh...nqpclr is bug-compatible.
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14:10 colomon heh
14:11 colomon rakudo: multi sub postfiz:<!>($a) { [*] 1..$a }
14:11 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Null PMC access in get_integer()␤»
14:11 colomon reported?
14:14 tadzik Dunno, but funny :)
14:15 jnthn ...huh, what.
14:15 jnthn I thought those had worked for ages.
14:15 jnthn rakudo: multi sub postfiz:<!>($a) { [*] 1..$a }; say 10!
14:15 tadzik postfizes? :)
14:15 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Null PMC access in get_integer()␤»
14:16 jnthn ohh.
14:16 jnthn :P
14:16 jnthn Well, you should at least spell right. :P
14:16 tadzik :D
14:16 jnthn rakudo: multi sub postfix:<!>($a) { [*] 1..$a }; say 10!
14:16 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«3628800␤»
14:16 jnthn phew :)
14:16 tadzik Perl 6 – you should at least spell right :)
14:16 jnthn Anyway, LTA error, if it even should be one. :)
14:20 xinming_ joined #perl6
14:21 colomon a thought a Null PMC was always considered report worthy.  :)
14:21 colomon afk # noms
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14:42 colomon reported
14:44 moritz_ rakudo: my %h; say pir::exists(%h, 'a')
14:44 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«exists_keyed() not implemented in class ''␤  in main program body at line 2:/tmp/VtixLfcJIR␤»
14:46 am0c left #perl6
14:48 moritz_ rakudo: .say for pir::split(',', 'a,b,c')
14:49 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«Method 'say' not found for invocant of class 'ResizableStringArray'␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/dCwSOqEGkS␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
14:49 moritz_ rakudo: say(pir::split(',', 'a,b,c'))
14:49 p6eval rakudo 549d2a: OUTPUT«[ "a", "b", "c" ]␤»
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14:54 moritz_ nqp: sub f($x) { sub g() { say($x) }; g() }; f(3)
14:54 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«3␤»
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15:28 sorear good * #perl6
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15:30 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
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15:32 mberends good * sorear
15:32 phenny mberends: 10:31Z <moritz_> tell mberends I hope you'll join us for lunch tomorrow (if you happen to arrive around lunch time)
15:34 mberends phenny, tell moritz_ yes please, that fits in the itinerary very nicely :-)
15:34 phenny mberends: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
15:34 moritz_ \o/
15:34 phenny moritz_: 15:34Z <mberends> tell moritz_ yes please, that fits in the itinerary very nicely :-)
15:35 pmurias joined #perl6
15:36 mberends busy packing the car now (packing usually gets refactored several times to optimize for space)
15:37 * moritz_ hacks on his nqp-rx/nom based command line parser
15:37 jnthn Oh, *that's* what you're hacking on. :)
15:38 mikehh rakudo (549d2a9) - builds on parrot (3_0_0-313-g4970e66)- make test, make spectest_smolder[(#6108), roast (510d9d2)] PASS - Kubuntu 10.10 amd64 (g++-4.5 with --optimize)
15:38 mikehh 27,599 ok, 0 failed, 611 todo, 1,837 skipped and 0 unexpectedly succeeded
15:42 moritz_ jnthn: so far it handles (optionally grouped) single character options, and single char optioins with arguments
15:48 mtk left #perl6
15:51 masak moritz_++
15:52 masak moritz_: I see you're in S19 a bit too. if you want to brainstorm improvements to S19, I'll be happy to assist.
15:52 * masak thinks S19 is piecewise too ambitious
15:52 * moritz_ thinks so too
15:52 JimmyZ Does anyone know parrot's new_callback op?
15:53 jnthn Not personally.
15:53 JimmyZ sorry, wrong
15:53 masak specifically, the parts that (1) try to move away from Unix tradition, and (2) impose a tree structure on the command-line arguments.
15:55 sorear masak: I wrote a clone of getopt_long(3) a couple weeks ago in Perl 6
15:55 sorear I agree with you about S19 btw
15:55 sorear (which is part of why I did it)
15:56 sorear s/masak/moritz/
15:57 sorear moritz_: you might find something stealable in niecza:src/niecza lines 463-600
15:57 pmurias sorear: hi
15:58 masak sorear++
16:02 * masak makes a 'o.O' after checking up in 'perldoc perlrun' what S19:180 really means
16:03 sorear masak: http://smuggle.intercal.or​g.uk/manual/lectures.html # re. "A class is what you're in, duh"
16:04 masak ooh, INTERCAL humor! :D
16:11 cjk101010 joined #perl6
16:11 masak "If you try that, you get a CLASS WAR error." -- hihi
16:14 masak having read that, I must say that they've managed to make OO "blend in" very well with the rest of the features of INTERCAL. kudos.
16:24 Axius left #perl6
16:37 moritz_ sorear: thanks for the pointer
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19:04 moritz_ sorear: I suspect I'm suffering from NIH syndrome though :-)
19:10 lue hello zebras! o/
19:10 moritz_ \o lue
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19:29 lue [reading through S19] was rakudo by chance once installed as  rakudo  by default? [Instead of  perl6  ]
19:29 moritz_ I don't think so
19:29 cafesofie left #perl6
19:30 tadzik someone was complaining recently, that „if there's supposed to be multiple implementations, why is Rakudo «perl6» rather than «rakudo»?”
19:30 * moritz_ agrees it should be 'rakudo'
19:31 Mowah joined #perl6
19:33 moritz_ phenny: tell jnthn that I get a nasty "P6opaque attributes NYFI" error when I uncomment the hilighted line (165) in https://github.com/moritz/nqp-cl-parser/blob/683​2591a1597ecd34c250257f8ae51fd31a3b9de/do.pl#L165 in what seems like a simple scalar attribute access - any idea what's wrong?
19:33 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
19:33 nadim_ joined #perl6
19:36 lue what are the -P and -u options in P5? They are listed under "Removed Syntactic Features", and the explanation of "Obsolete. Removed" for these two is very helpful :/
19:38 * lue realizes he could just    perl -h    and does so.
19:38 tadzik `perldoc perlrun`
19:38 kaare_ left #perl6
19:38 kaare_ joined #perl6
19:39 lue I'm not a big fan of assuming all P6'ers know P5. I'll be sure to better those two explanations in a bit.
19:47 mikehh left #perl6
19:53 shi joined #perl6
19:57 dalek mu: ee0b736 | moritz++ | misc/dalek-conf.json:
19:57 dalek mu: make dalek watch my command line parser
19:57 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/ee0b73605f
19:58 moritz_ lue: if somebody doesn't know perl 5, there's no loss of knowledge when he ignores the sentence you mentioned
20:01 * diakopter tries to piece togther the negatives
20:01 dalek specs: 15040dd | lue++ | S19-commandline.pod:
20:01 dalek specs: [S19] (Hopefully) clarified purpose of obsolete -P and -u options
20:01 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/15040dde35
20:02 diakopter lue++ # thanks; that's helpful
20:02 lue I, however, get annoyed that one wouldn't at least describe the function of it, much less why it was removed.
20:03 cafesofie joined #perl6
20:04 lue afk
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20:15 tadzik oh, there's no Numbers::Ordinal in neutro
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21:19 pmurias masak: what do you mean by S19 being to ambitious?
21:21 Layla_91 joined #perl6
21:28 pmurias masak: i found the ++subpart ++/subpart very helpfull in mildew
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22:05 sorear pmurias: What categories of ops would you most like to see documented before Monday?
22:06 kst joined #perl6
22:07 dukeleto there is a Parrot Developer Summit happening now in #parrotsketch on irc.perl.org, if anybody is interested
22:08 sorear if I can join, anyone can!
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22:25 [particle] moritz_++ # S19 patches
22:29 perigrin rakudo.org is having issues?
22:30 coldhead it seems it is ever thus
22:31 VXZ joined #perl6
22:33 pmurias sorear: the ones with the strange names
22:33 pmurias sorear: an have the structure of the output documented
22:34 * pmurias looks in more detail at the ops
22:34 sorear the structure of the output is now documented in broad details
22:35 Vlavv left #perl6
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22:35 sorear I don't have all the fiddly bits of signatures, roles, stashes down yet
22:35 justatheory joined #perl6
22:37 pmurias how do the Internal to the backend ops appear?
22:37 pmurias what do some ops have a bif prefix?
22:38 sorear see CLRBackend.cs line 3408, for instance
22:38 sorear the internal ops are used because in a few cases, the backend needs to generate optrees to do stuff
22:39 sorear they're smelly and I'd love to kill them
22:39 sorear --
22:39 sorear bif = built in function.  bif_xxx ops take 0 or more 'var' values, return a 'var', and generally correspond to CORE::something
22:45 pmurias re op categories "Sequence control operations","Operations on variables","Operations on low-level lists"
22:47 pmurias "Annotations" and "Object model operations" seem even more handier
22:47 pmurias s/handier/more usefull/
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23:22 pmurias sorear: doc/nam.pod so far seems very usefull
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23:41 masak pmurias: interesting to hear about you having had use of ++subpart ++/subpart in mildew. my followup question would be: do you consider the gain of being able to do ++subpart X Y Z ++/subpart to be bigger than the hassle of doing --subpart-X --subpart-Y --subpart-Z?
23:41 bemjb joined #perl6
23:42 masak to me, the latter seems like more to write, but that's a relatively small cost compared to implementing (and thinking about) nested comman-line options.
23:42 sorear I beleive that to write a Unix program without using getopt_long or a 100% compatible function is highly antisocial
23:42 bacek left #perl6
23:43 sorear as a shell programmer, I think of command line engines as like character encodings
23:43 sorear they're essential, but I'd prefer to not think about them, and that only works if they are homogenous
23:44 sorear Xt is bad enough, I don't need another incompatible command toolkit
23:46 masak sorear: I'm at least partway with you there.
23:46 bemjb rakudo.org seems down. Is there another place that I can get rakudo from?
23:46 coldhead github, bemjb
23:46 coldhead ask google
23:47 masak sorear: I see Perl 6 as "breaking the traditions of Unix that need breaking", so some things will seem daring and iconoclastic before their time has come. when I look at S19, though, I don't see it as something whose time will come.
23:47 bemjb thanks... I was only finding links to rakudo.org, but obviously I didn't look hard enough.
23:47 masak I can definitely see it with S05 or even S09. not so with S19.
23:47 sorear What's iconoclastic about S09?
23:48 masak it gives arrays a hash interface and vice versa, for one thing.
23:48 masak that's more breaking a Perl tradition than a Unix one.
23:49 tadzik bemjb: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo
23:50 bemjb tadzik: thanks, I found it. :-)
23:52 sorear drama in #parrotsketch.
23:53 tadzik yeah

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