Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-02-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:13 sjohnson (っ´ω`)っ
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00:32 snarkyboojum coldhead: aye, they could cover for "Inversion of Control"
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01:47 sorear good * #perl6
01:48 snarkyboojum o/
01:51 colomon \o
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01:59 sorear colomon: for a while it was fashionable to put that constant in x86 release binaries, because IDA has the same bug
02:00 sorear colomon: a related bug, at least.
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02:05 sorear shortcircuit: "mono" on Debians is a stripped down version that can't run any real programs.  You need "mono-complete".
02:06 sorear shortcircuit: that said, niecza has been tested on Mono 2.4.4, 2.6.4, 2.6.7, 2.8.2, and HEAD
02:08 sorear Tene: Niecza has a fork of the IO class.  I'm interested in discussing philosophy with you.
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02:12 sorear whew.  backlog finished.
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02:19 colomon sorear: I'm pleased to say I had only the smallest difficulty getting niecza v2 running on my Windows box, and that problem was completely the result of my own impatience.  Whee!
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02:51 sorear colomon: Is that a +1 to "I need to find a way to avoid the initial setting compile on all new installs"?
02:52 colomon errr... only the gentlest +1.  It's not exactly arduous, if you know to expect it.
02:53 colomon I just didn't read quite far enough down the README.
02:53 colomon Actually, if you could just have it print a message saying what it is doing before it starts, that would be all you need, IMO.
02:54 colomon I didn't know if I was invoking it the right way, so when it just sat there, I assumed I had done something wrong.
02:59 sorear how long did it take on what hardware, ooc?
03:07 sorear perl6: sub infix:<L+>($x, $y) { $x ~ $y }; my $z = "f"; $z L+= "g"; say $z
03:07 p6eval niecza v2-1-gc6596ea: OUTPUT«fg␤»
03:07 p6eval ..rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
03:07 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "L"␤    expecting operator␤    at /tmp/PKSv33MRrm line 1, column 53␤»
03:11 colomon It took a minute or two, perhaps?  It's a quad core machine with 8 gigs RAM, I'm not sure the exact processor type or speed.
03:12 colomon It really wasn't unreasonably long, it was just surprisingly long because I wasn't expecting any significant pause.
03:13 sorear huh.
03:15 sorear it takes about 30 seconds on my one-core (P4 Northwood 2003), 0.375 gigs RAM machine.
03:15 sorear I wonder what's so pessimal about your setup.
03:15 sorear diakopter says it takes 5 seconds for him
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03:22 colomon Huh.  It was definitely more than 5 seconds.  Might have been 30 seconds, though, I certainly wasn't timing it closely.  Is there any way I can redo it so I can time it properly?
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03:30 colomon afk # bed
03:43 snarkyboojum niceza takes about 10-15 seconds for a first run, on my lappy
03:44 snarkyboojum fwiw :)
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03:52 Util rakudo: say "line ", $. ;
03:52 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $. variable; in Perl 6 please use the filehandle's .line method at line 22, near " ;"␤»
03:52 Util rakudo: say "line ", $*IN.line ;
03:52 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Method 'line' not found for invocant of class 'IO'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/TTTFk9sbXm␤»
03:52 Util rakudo: say $*IN.^methods».name.grep({ m:i/ line | input | record | number / }).Str;
03:52 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«lines lines␤»
03:52 Util Error message says ".line", S28 says ".input_record_number", Rakudo lists neither as methods on a file handle.
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03:52 snarkyboojum rakudo: say 'niecza'.comb(/./).pick(*).join
03:52 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«ziecan␤»
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05:17 Tene sorear: I recommend you look through the IRC logs for my last conversation with timtoady about IO
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07:07 sorear phenny: tell jnthn Is 6model/dotnet or nqp-rx/nom the current state of the art in nomminess?
07:07 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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07:12 coldhead nomminess <3
07:13 sorear colomon: so, you say you're not good enough?
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07:46 moritz_ good morning
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09:26 moritz_ funny, the top 4 stories on hackernews are all about bing vs. google and alleged search result stealing
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10:17 masak g'day, zebras.
10:18 moritz_ o/
10:18 * frettled whinnies in two tones like a good zebra.
10:22 * mathw thinks about recorder technique
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10:26 * masak thinks about $x % 2
10:28 frettled That's very zebraish of you.
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11:08 masak phenny: tell daxim ok, I think I solved your problem, bonus points and all: https://gist.github.com/807554
11:08 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when daxim is around.
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13:00 takadonet morning all
13:03 tadzik o/
13:04 colomon \o
13:07 abraxxa i'm having a problem with nested hash access
13:07 abraxxa my $matching_rank = %rank_for{$matching_number_​cnt}.{$matching_star_cnt};
13:07 abraxxa when printing $matching_rank the output is Any()
13:07 abraxxa what happens in perl 6 if a key doesn't exist?
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13:10 abraxxa when i look at https://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/maste​r/S09-autovivification/autovivification.t it seems the dot isn't needed
13:10 arnsholt IIRC if you're reading you'll get an undefined value, if you assign it'll get auto-vivified
13:10 abraxxa is my syntax correct?
13:10 abraxxa or do i need <> around vars?
13:11 abraxxa that's how i've defined my hash: my %rank_for = {  5 => {  2 => 1 }};
13:16 abraxxa this works my $matching_rank = %rank_for{$matching_number​_cnt}{$matching_star_cnt};
13:17 abraxxa but it returns Any() and not undef if the key's don't exist
13:17 daxim perl6:   my %rank_for = {  5 => {  2 => 1 }};  %rank_for.perl.say;
13:17 phenny daxim: 11:08Z <masak> tell daxim ok, I think I solved your problem, bonus points and all: https://gist.github.com/807554
13:18 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«{"5" => {"2" => 1}}␤»
13:18 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«{("5" => {("2" => 1),}),}␤»
13:18 p6eval ..niecza v2-1-gc6596ea: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Attempted to access slot key of type object for Hash␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/SAFE.setting line 0 (SAFE Hash.LISTSTORE @ 0)␤  at /tmp/HtlCApg8Lv line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 8)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/SAFE.setting line 1037 (SAFE C432_ANON @
13:18 p6eval ..1)␤  at /home/p…
13:18 tadzik there is no undef in Perl 6
13:18 tadzik std: undef
13:18 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unsupported use of undef as a value; in Perl 6 please use something more specific:␤  Mu (the "most undefined" type object),␤ an undefined type object such as Int,␤  Nil as an empty list,␤  :!defined as a matcher,␤        Any:U as a type constraint␤
13:18 p6eval ..    or fail() as…
13:20 abraxxa daxim: i did that and the hash looks ok to me
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13:21 abraxxa the encoding of p6eval isn't ok for me
13:21 tadzik it's not the encoding, these are the ANSI escape sequences for colors
13:21 abraxxa tadzik: ah, thanks for the info
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13:23 colomon abraxxa: Any() is (one of) Perl 6's way(s) of saying undef.
13:24 abraxxa what's the perl 6 equivalent of cond ? true : false; ?
13:25 masak cond ?? true !! false;
13:25 abraxxa ah, ?? !!
13:25 abraxxa i've read it somewhere yesterday and thought it was ?? ||
13:26 masak std: my ($a, $b, $c); $a ? $b : $c;
13:26 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unsupported use of ?: for the conditional operator; in Perl 6 please use ??!! at /tmp/KlsAZcIyvq line 1:␤------> [32mmy ($a, $b, $c); $a ?[33m⏏[31m $b : $c;[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 122m␤»
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13:26 abraxxa https://gist.github.com/806301
13:27 abraxxa masak: i tried that with my say line but got a different output
13:27 abraxxa std: my $foo; say $foo ? 'yes' : 'no';
13:27 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unsupported use of ?: for the conditional operator; in Perl 6 please use ??!! at /tmp/t6fEDYHAgL line 1:␤------> [32mmy $foo; say $foo ?[33m⏏[31m 'yes' : 'no';[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 121m␤»
13:28 abraxxa i got Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 77
13:28 colomon abraxxa: that would be a Rakudo error, not a std: error, I'm betting.
13:28 colomon rakudo: my $foo; say $foo ? 'yes' : 'no';
13:28 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say $foo ?"␤»
13:28 abraxxa colomon: i see
13:29 masak abraxxa: it's ??!!, not ?:
13:29 masak abraxxa: I just did ?: to show you the informative error message STD gives you.
13:29 abraxxa masak: i tried to trigger the error message i got
13:29 masak Rakudo sometimes says "confused" where it should give more informative error messages.
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13:32 daxim masak, what's the expression mex in solution.txt?
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13:34 masak daxim: mex means "minimum excluded". it's the smallest natural number that's not among the arguments.
13:35 masak daxim: for an (impartial) game position with a number of "options", positions to which you can move, the value of that game position is the mex of its options.
13:37 daxim I fail to see a flaw in your written reasoning.  I still need an explanation how you arrive at picking up a certain number of sticks when the opponent has already forced you into an unwinnable situation, e.g. when 6 are remaining
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13:38 daxim if I see this correctly, the formula would pick 1
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13:43 * masak looks
13:44 masak right, 6-sticks-remaining is an unwinnable situation.
13:44 masak hence, there is no winning move.
13:44 daxim but you must play until the bitter end
13:44 masak right, so pick an arbitrary strategy.
13:44 masak it doesn't matter at that point.
13:44 masak not if the opponent's good.
13:44 daxim so, what do you pick?  I usually say rand(1..4)
13:45 masak it doesn't matter.
13:45 masak there's nothing to recommend any particular strategy in a losing position.
13:45 masak also, that wasn't part of your original problem.
13:46 daxim I read that nim games are always played out because one could always make a mistake at the last moment (humans being involved and all…) and giving up would squander that chance
13:47 masak I'm not arguing against that. I'm saying that at the point where you find yourself in a losing position, there's no strategy that will save you. only "luck".
13:47 masak ...which doesn't exist when you play against a good player.
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14:04 Util rakudo: our regex serial_number { <[A..Z]> \d**8 }; $_ = "ABCDEFGH"; my $z = /<serial_number>/ ?? "Y" !! "N"; say $z;
14:04 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Method 'serial_number' not found for invocant of class 'Cursor'␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/l6FgU8fGKV␤  in 'Cool::match' at line 2631:CORE.setting␤  in 'Regex::Bool' at line 6211:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 1:/tmp/l6FgU8fGKV␤»
14:05 Util ???
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14:15 snarkyboojum rakudo: our regex serial_number { <[A..Z]> \d**8 }; $_ = "ABCDEFGH"; my $z = /serial_number/ ?? "Y" !! "N"; say $z;
14:15 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«N␤»
14:18 Util snarkyboojum: without the angle brackets, "serial_number" is just a series of characters to search for.
14:18 snarkyboojum Util: Sure. Nfi here - just playing :)
14:19 Util thx
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14:39 masak Util: I'm momentarily mystified as well.
14:39 masak Util: that, or something very much like it, used to work.
14:39 masak rakudo: our regex serial_number { <[A..Z]> \d**8 }; $_ = "ABCDEFGH"; my $z = /<&serial_number>/ ?? "Y" !! "N"; say $z;
14:39 Util It works within a grammar.
14:39 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«N␤»
14:39 masak there you go.
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14:44 Util My reading of S05 is that the & should be legal (to mean a lexical regex), but not *necessary* in this code.
14:44 Util thanks, though; it is just the work-around that I needed.
14:45 Util OHNO! the &-form supresses capture.
14:45 PerlJam Util: <foo=&foo>
14:45 Util PerlJam: thx
14:46 Util and Doh!
14:46 PerlJam Util: what part of S05 gives you the impression that the & isn't necessary?
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14:51 Util PerlJam: "This form always gives preference to a lexically scoped regex declaration"
14:52 Util (I was testing with "my" instead of "our").
14:52 Util rakudo: my regex serial_number { <[A..Z]> \d**8 }; $_ = "ABCDEFGH"; my $z = /<serial_number>/ ?? "Y" !! "N"; say $z;
14:52 masak Util: I think you're right, and that the &-less shortcut is simply unimplemented in nqp-rx.
14:52 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Method 'serial_number' not found for invocant of class 'Cursor'␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/MsLFjfYuxL␤  in 'Cool::match' at line 2631:CORE.setting␤  in 'Regex::Bool' at line 6211:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 1:/tmp/MsLFjfYuxL␤»
14:52 Util rakudo: my regex serial_number { <[A..Z]> \d**8 }; $_ = "ABCDEFGH"; my $z = /<&serial_number>/ ?? "Y" !! "N"; say $z;
14:52 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«N␤»
14:53 PerlJam Hmm.
14:53 PerlJam In my reading that sentence applies to either <foo()> or <foo:>, but not <foo>
14:54 masak I haven't read the context in S05, but it feels "right" to me that serial_number should defer to &serial_number.
14:55 PerlJam ah, but the last paragraph in that section says "A call to C<< <foo> >> will fail if there is neither any lexically scoped routine of that name it can call, nor ..."
14:56 PerlJam masak: yes, it does.
14:59 PerlJam now I've got to lookup what the problems with implementing it were last time we talked about this.
14:59 masak :)
15:00 Util PerlJam: I just arrived at the same thought; that the last paragraph implies my interpretation. Also, all the intervening text makes sense (as in "is coherent") if you read it as generic <foo>, and take all the extra stuff in each <foo...> example as being extra detail given to match the discussion in previous section.
15:02 * Util is not awake enough to make that last missive more intelligible :(
15:02 PerlJam Util: looked fine to me :)
15:03 Util thx, and big thanks to you both for your help.
15:03 Util I will have more bugs (of a different nature) later this morning.
15:04 masak yay
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15:10 PerlJam Looks like we talked about this subject (named regex outside of a grammar) on 2010-07-20: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-07-20
15:10 PerlJam I don't know if that was the last time though :)
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15:16 PerlJam The answer to Pm-21/22 in https://github.com/perl6/m​u/blob/master/misc/pm.txt seem to be the last state of everyone's thinking.
15:17 PerlJam and NYI of course
15:21 Util PerlJam: thanks!
15:22 masak PerlJam++ # research
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15:32 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:33 takadonet pmichaud: morning
15:33 masak morning, pm
15:35 jnthn morning, pmichaud
15:36 phenny jnthn: 07:07Z <sorear> tell jnthn Is 6model/dotnet or nqp-rx/nom the current state of the art in nomminess?
15:36 colomon \o
15:36 jnthn phenny: tell sorear the CLR one is a bit cleaner for understanding it. Only nqp-rx/nom knows the native types bit though.
15:36 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
15:38 pmichaud note that the answer to Pm-21/22 are not only NYI, but also "not yet specced"
15:38 pmichaud *answers
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16:18 sorear good * #perl6
16:18 phenny sorear: 15:36Z <jnthn> tell sorear the CLR one is a bit cleaner for understanding it. Only nqp-rx/nom knows the native types bit though.
16:20 sorear jnthn: thanks.
16:24 Util pmichaud: thanks
16:25 Util (unrelated)
16:25 Util Strange example in S05: given $source_code { $parsetree = STD.parse($source_code) }
16:25 Util Why use a given{...} block?
16:26 colomon thinko
16:26 PerlJam also, that code might have undergone modifications that left it in that state but was originally more complex
16:27 colomon I... yeah, what PerlJam said.
16:27 colomon or the standard switched and it was corrected without looking at it closely or something.
16:27 Util Ah, I did not think to look at the Spec's history.
16:31 Util `git show a8aa081` is the commit that did it.
16:32 colomon what was it before?
16:32 Util $parsetree = m:keepall/<Perl::prog>/;
16:33 Util I will update the spec
16:33 pmichaud Util++
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16:37 dalek specs: 4c4b50f | util++ | S05-regex.pod:
16:37 dalek specs: Remove block left-over from a8aa081e5acf4116026f20152fd50a8d78e7fd03
16:37 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/4c4b50f304
16:38 sorear jnthn: In a STable, how many of the fields are REPR-dependant?  Which are they?
16:38 sorear hello pmichaud
16:39 pmichaud sorear: o/
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16:46 sorear rakudo: subset Even of Int where * %% 2; my Even $x; say $x.WHAT; say $x ~~ Int; say $x.^methods;
16:46 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3:
16:46 p6eval ..OUTPUT«Int()␤Bool::True␤perlpredsuccWHICHStrBri​dgeIntRatNumsignACCEPTSRealBoolComplexrealsisNaNa​bsexplnsqrtrootsfloorceilingtruncateroundcisunpol​arrandsinasincosacostanatansecaseccosecacoseccota​nacotansinhasinhcoshacoshtanhatanhsechasechcosech​acosechcotanhacotanhatan2Numericloglog10to-rad…
16:47 sorear rakudo: subset Even of Int where * %% 2; my Even $x; say $x; $x = Int; say $x
16:47 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Int()␤Int()␤»
16:47 sorear rakudo: say Int %% 2;
16:47 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
16:47 sorear rakudo: say Int !%% 2;
16:47 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Infix !% is deprecated in favor of infix %% at line 22, near "% 2;"␤»
16:47 sorear rakudo: say Int ![%%] 2;
16:47 * masak submits rakudobug
16:47 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
16:48 masak std: say Int !%% 2;
16:48 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
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16:48 sorear rakudo: subset Odd of Int where * ![%%] 2; my Odd $x; say $x; $x = $x; say $x
16:48 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Int()␤Type check failed for assignment␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/fNWcjWwAcl␤»
16:48 sorear Is this how it's supposed to work?
16:49 sorear perl6: sub infix:<L+>($x,$y) { $x ~ $y }; my $z = 'f'; $z L+= 'g'; say $z; # masak, is this one known?
16:49 p6eval niecza v2-1-gc6596ea: OUTPUT«fg␤»
16:49 p6eval ..rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
16:49 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "L"␤    expecting operator␤    at /tmp/8nysncGppZ line 1, column 52␤»
16:50 masak sorear: yes.
16:50 masak sorear: it's an oldie-but-goodie.
16:50 masak IIRC, use 'our' on the sub and it goes away.
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16:53 pmurias perl6: say 3 ![%%] 2
16:53 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
16:53 p6eval ..niecza v2-1-gc6596ea: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Modulus calculation NYI␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/SAFE.setting line 377 (SAFE die @ 2)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/SAFE.setting line 1003 (SAFE infix:<%> @ 2)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/SAFE.setting line 983 (SAFE infix:<%%> @ 2)␤  at
16:53 p6eval ../tmp/pewVv5Ji_r line…
16:53 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "![%%]"␤    expecting operator, ":" or ","␤    at /tmp/K8eVkslczG line 1, column 7␤»
16:54 pmurias rakduo: say 3 %% 2
16:54 [Coke] why is the output frmo niecza in 2 sends there?
16:54 [Coke] (why isn't it just a single send with another ␤ ?
16:55 pmurias ?
16:55 pmurias [Coke]: what do you mean?
16:55 pmichaud yay, snow days!
16:55 pmurias [Coke]: ah, i get it
16:56 masak [Coke]: because it's so long.
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16:56 masak it's broken off somewhere along the way.
16:56 pmurias eval_bot should just nopaste errors
16:56 pmurias * p6eval
16:57 [Coke] pmichaud: I'm just glad it looks like we're not going to lose power this time. :P
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16:57 pmurias niecza, pugs: see nopaste-url
16:57 ashleyde1 left #perl6
16:58 [Coke] ... wait, YOU have a snow day?
16:58 ashleydev left #perl6
16:58 pmichaud our second in a row
16:58 pmichaud and there's a good possibility for a third tomorrow
16:58 pmichaud we got hit by ice storms, and the temperature has yet to go above 20 degF, so the ice on the roads is just.... sitting there
16:59 pmichaud the whole state of Texas is going through "rolling blackouts" because the utilities can't keep up with demand
17:01 takadonet bah we never have snow days :(
17:02 * sorear hasn't had any either :(
17:03 [Coke] you're welcome to come shovel us out, you can have our snow day. :)
17:06 takadonet [Coke]: see we do have lots of snow but we just have enough machines to clear it out
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17:10 pmichaud No machines here.  No road salt.  Just ice pellets all frozen together on the road surface, and a bunch of Priuses trying to maintain traction on it.  :-P
17:11 pmichaud (no "snow tires" either, of course :)
17:13 arnsholt My girlfriend is headed for Texas ATM. She'll be really unhappy if there's snow =)
17:13 pmichaud That's further south -- it doesn't snow quite as often there.
17:13 arnsholt Ah, right. Good for her then =)
17:15 * sorear is still trying to figure out subsets- see above
17:15 pmichaud oops, but it looks like it's forecasting snow there on Friday :-)
17:17 arnsholt Fun, fun. Austin looks like it should miss it, but the temperature forecasts are a bit chilly
17:19 pmurias sorear: what's the part you are figuring out?
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17:21 tadzik \o/
17:21 sorear rakudo: subset Odd of Int where * ![%%] 2; my Odd $x; $x = $x
17:21 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Type check failed for assignment␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/2g5di8RELL␤»
17:21 * tadzik is now on the 3rd semester, disregarding the two remaining exams
17:21 sorear pmurias: stuff like that
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17:27 sorear phenny: tell jnthn thanks.
17:27 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
17:28 sorear phenny: tell jnthn In a STable, how many and which of the fields are REPR-dependant?
17:28 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
17:28 sorear phenny: tell jnthn How do subsets fit into the 6model type_check cache paradigm?
17:28 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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17:41 sorear eeek!  nqp-rx/nom hardcodes "8" instead of "CHAR_BIT"
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17:43 sorear phenny: tell jnthn At P6str.c line 128, why don't you mark the STRING?
17:43 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
17:43 dukeleto magic constants!
17:44 sorear I'm sure 9-bit chars will become fashionable again someday
17:44 sorear Or perhaps 32
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17:46 dukeleto I am holding out for 36bit words
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17:55 ash_ does IO let you access the file descriptor?
17:55 bluescreen joined #perl6
17:55 ash_ or am i going to have to dig into PIR to get to that?
17:57 masak likely.
17:58 perigrin colomon++ # submitted a talk!
18:00 pmurias left #perl6
18:01 colomon perigrin: I was also unable to pay when I tried.  Clicking on the "credit card" link took me to an error page.
18:01 perigrin *sigh*
18:01 perigrin I'll talk with the ACT peopel
18:01 perigrin er people
18:02 perigrin colomon: your talk will probably be accepted so don't pay yet :)
18:02 plobsing left #perl6
18:03 colomon perigrin: yeah, I figured out after the fact that I shouldn't have been trying, but thought you'd want to know.
18:04 dakkar left #perl6
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18:05 perigrin colomon: thanks, mail sent to the ACT people
18:16 ash_ is there an unbuffered io object?
18:16 ash_ and or a bare file descriptor object?
18:17 sorear Int, use POSIX:from<perl5>
18:17 ash_ eh, well not object but i hope you understand what i am asking
18:18 ash_ i am hoping to be able to do this with just parrot/rakudo (i'd like to just do it with rakudo to be honest though)
18:18 ash_ i was going to see about writing a serial library, for opening serial ports (like the USB kind)
18:20 ash_ ah, parrot's Handle object has get_fd, which will let me access the file descriptor directly
18:20 ash_ IO should let you get the fd as well, for ffi purposes
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18:30 sorear phenny: tell jnthn How does the NQP 'native' type_declarator work?
18:30 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around. I'll have to use a pastebin, though, so your message may get lost.
18:30 sorear agggh.
18:30 sorear aloha: msg jnthn How does the NQP 'native' type_declarator work?
18:30 sorear aloha: tell jnthn How does the NQP 'native' type_declarator work?
18:32 sorear phenny is configured to use a pastebin that no longer exists, so "may" means "will"
18:33 ash_ can we fix phenny?
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19:51 pmurias sorear: what's the hard part with that subset?
19:52 pmurias ![%%] seems strange
19:54 cafesofie joined #perl6
19:55 [Coke] masak: is that %% ticket different from the existing %% ticket?
19:56 [particle] potty mouth
19:56 masak [Coke]: url?
20:05 dalek tpfwiki: (Razan Abbass)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6​/index.cgi?first_post_in_ssd_weblog
20:11 dalek tpfwiki: (Razan Abbass)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6​/index.cgi?first_post_in_ssd_weblog
20:11 dalek tpfwiki: (Razan Abbass)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/​index.cgi?navigation_for_ssd_weblog
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20:13 colomon ![%%] seems insane, I'd say.
20:13 colomon or at least, [%%] does.
20:14 colomon rakudo: say [%%] 5, 4, 6, 3
20:14 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
20:14 colomon rakudo: say [%%] 6, 3
20:14 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
20:15 colomon rakudo: say [%%] 6, 3, 1
20:15 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
20:15 colomon rakudo: say [%%] 6, 3, 2
20:15 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
20:15 masak ![%%] just means !%%
20:15 masak it's just a way of disambiguation.
20:15 masak don't panic :)
20:15 colomon ah
20:16 colomon rakudo: say 5 ![%%] 2
20:16 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
20:16 colomon rakudo: say 5 !%% 2
20:16 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Infix !% is deprecated in favor of infix %% at line 22, near "% 2"␤»
20:16 [particle] ELTMFAIL
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20:17 masak exactly.
20:20 pmichaud std: say 5!%2;
20:20 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Can't negate % because multiplicative operators are not iffy enough at /tmp/XMjHuV6Ugh line 1:␤------> [32msay 5!%[33m⏏[31m2;[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
20:20 [Coke] masak: i haven't found the old one yet. :)
20:20 masak searching RT is a fine art.
20:20 [Coke] what's the syntax for looping over an array while still having access to the index if you need it?
20:21 pmichaud for @array.kv -> $index, $value { ... }
20:21 [Coke] danke.
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20:24 pmichaud std:  say 5 !+ 2;
20:24 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Can't negate + because additive operators are not iffy enough at /tmp/8gz0BTMnxe line 1:␤------> [32msay 5 !+[33m⏏[31m 2;[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
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20:26 masak "iffy" == "returning something that's either a boolean, or would be if it wasn't a more interesting value" :)
20:27 pmichaud right
20:27 pmichaud I'm just trying to add it to Rakudo to see what happens :)
20:27 colomon pmichaud: are you fixing the !%% in the process?
20:27 pmichaud yes
20:28 pmichaud since %% is iffy
20:28 colomon then I will undo my local (rather brute force) changes.  ;)
20:29 pmichaud let's see what happens :-)
20:30 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/808367  # patch I'm currently testing, if anyone is interested :-)
20:31 colomon so you're switching the specific !% error message to a generic "not iffy enough" one.
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20:31 pmichaud I'm eliminating the specific !% token altogether.  STD.pm6 doesn't have one.
20:32 pmichaud I'm generally following the way that STD handles it
20:32 colomon very reasonable policy.
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20:39 pmichaud pmichaud@orange:~/rakudo$ ./perl6
20:39 pmichaud > say 5 !%% 2;
20:39 pmichaud Bool::True
20:39 pmichaud > say 5 !+ 2;
20:39 pmichaud Can't negate + because it is not iffy enough at line 1, near " 2;\n"
20:39 tadzik pmichaud++
20:39 pmichaud spectesting now
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20:40 tadzik pmichaud: ooc, what are the chances for Rakudo using STD one day, like niecza does?
20:40 pmichaud tadzik: I still expect STD and Rakudo's grammar to converge, more than it being "one or the other"
20:40 colomon do we have a spectest for !%%   ?
20:41 pmichaud colomon: ack doesn't reveal any
20:41 pmichaud there are still some things that I think Rakudo's grammar handles slightly better than STD, although that's becoming less and less so thanks to niecza
20:42 pmichaud but yes, someday I expect us to be using a very common grammar at some point in the not-to-distant future
20:43 colomon huh.  there's a block of %% tests in S03-metaops.not.t.  Leftover from !%, perhaps?
20:43 pmichaud it's even more likely to occur if/when we get roles into nqp
20:44 pmichaud +1 for colomon++ to fix the tests :-)
20:44 colomon crazily enough, there appear to be no other direct tests of %% -- all other incidences are using %% to test some other feature.
20:44 colomon We should have done tests that day at YAPC::NA.  :)
20:44 pmichaud I wonder if I should start using audreyt's approach   "You want this fixed?  Patch in a test first!"  :-P
20:44 colomon I'll get to work on it.
20:45 pmichaud or, as I think she said:  "I produce code in exchange for tests"
20:45 pmichaud something like that
20:45 colomon what do we call %%, anyway?  divisible-by.t ?
20:46 pmichaud C<< infix:<%%> >>, is divisible by
20:46 pmichaud (from S03)
20:46 colomon is-divisible-by.t it is, then.
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20:56 dalek roast: 799b9e9 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S03- (2 files):
20:56 dalek roast: Move infix:<%%> tests from S03-metaops/not.t to a new S03-operators/is-divisible-by.t.
20:56 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/799b9e90b4
20:56 dalek roast: 30833cd | (Solomon Foster)++ | S03-operators/is-divisible-by.t:
20:56 dalek roast: Temporarily fudge file until pmichaud gets his infix::<!%%> patch merged in.
20:56 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/30833cd77a
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20:58 colomon done.
20:58 * colomon is suspicious he's at least partially responsible for the previous sloppy test.
21:00 dalek rakudo: 88fa70d | colomon++ | t/spectest.data:
21:00 dalek rakudo: Add S03-operators/is-divisible-by.t.
21:00 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/88fa70dea3
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21:07 pmichaud almost finished with spectests
21:08 pmichaud one failure in charset.t
21:09 pmichaud ....which appears to be due to a nqp-rx string mismatch
21:09 pmichaud so, committing.
21:10 pmichaud pmichaud@orange:~/rakudo$ make t/spec/S03-operators/is-divisible-by.t
21:10 pmichaud All tests successful.
21:11 masak \o/
21:11 colomon did you unfudge it?  I wasn't able to run the !%% tests here (obviously).
21:11 pmichaud colomon: did you update the plan in not.t?  plan says 36 tests but I think there's only 30.
21:11 colomon pmichaud: good catch.
21:11 colomon I'll fix it.
21:12 dalek roast: 5a1dd86 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S03-metaops/not.t:
21:12 dalek roast: Fix plan to reflect the moved tests.
21:12 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5a1dd86cb9
21:16 pmichaud Resolved ticket :-)
21:16 colomon pmichaud++
21:16 tadzik 527 open tickets, a bit like Parrot :)
21:17 dalek rakudo: 3851302 | pmichaud++ | / (2 files):
21:17 dalek rakudo: Fix RT #83250, enabling !%% to work properly, removing the bogus !% panic, and eliminating the invalid cases of meta-negation on non-iffy infix operators.
21:17 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3851302622
21:17 dalek rakudo: 2666b6f | pmichaud++ | /:
21:17 dalek rakudo: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo
21:17 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2666b6f2bf
21:17 colomon probably resolved at least one other with the iffy fix, too, no?
21:17 pmichaud if there was another, then yes.
21:17 [Coke] tadzik: you have to count new+open
21:17 tadzik ouch
21:17 masak sorry... :P
21:18 pmichaud I blame masakbug.
21:18 tadzik rakudo: $_ = "test"; s/t/x/; .say;
21:18 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«xest␤»
21:18 tadzik http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=62064 closable then, no?
21:19 pmichaud tadzik: looks like yes to me, if we have spectests.
21:19 pmichaud 832 tickets, it looks like
21:19 masak we have tr/// ?
21:19 [Coke] down from about 850 earlier in the week.
21:19 colomon [Coke]++
21:19 pmichaud [Coke]++ and tadzik++   # ticket wranglers
21:19 tadzik dozens of them are opened, but fixed
21:20 [Coke] tadzik: might be less than dozens, now, but I'm hopeful.
21:20 tadzik I remember finding like 20 of them one afternoon, but had no one to close them, and didn't think about responding to them, shame on me
21:21 [Coke] tadzik: you have privs now, yes?
21:21 Tedd1 left #perl6
21:21 tadzik [Coke]: dunno, don't remember I must say
21:21 tadzik I remember asking pmichaud about them
21:22 [Coke] huh. new "mark spam" link on the toolbar.
21:22 [Coke] (used to be you had to change the queue to spam manually)
21:22 Tedd1 joined #perl6
21:22 tadzik will investigate after my exams
21:22 tadzik everything on my schedule is for "after my exams"
21:25 pmichaud std:  my %v = q=>10;
21:25 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
21:26 dalek roast: fbe953c | (Solomon Foster)++ | S03-operators/is-divisible-by.t:
21:26 dalek roast: Unfudge now that pmichaud++ has it working.
21:26 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/fbe953cd24
21:28 moritz_ rakudo: say 1/6 * [+] 0..5
21:28 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«2.5␤»
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21:31 moritz_ rakudo: say 1/6 [+] (0..5 X- 2.5) X** 2
21:32 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«38.0277777777778␤»
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21:35 colomon huh
21:35 colomon ?
21:35 colomon rakudo: say (1/6 [+] (0..5 X- 2.5) X** 2).perl
21:35 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«(1369/36)␤»
21:36 moritz_ context: mean and variance for http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=885823
21:36 colomon but how is 1/6 [+] (list) not two terms in a row?
21:36 colomon std: say 1/6 [+] (0..5 X- 2.5) X** 2
21:36 moritz_ a growth model where each member of the population spawns between 0 and 5 children (uniform distribution)
21:36 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
21:37 moritz_ rakudo: say 1/6 *  [+] (0..5 X- 2.5) X** 2
21:37 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«2.91666666666667␤»
21:37 moritz_ much saner :-)
21:37 moritz_ rakudo: say (1/6 *  [+] (0..5 X- 2.5) X** 2).perl
21:37 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«35/12␤»
21:37 pmichaud std:  say (1/6) [+] (0..5 X- 2.5) X** 2
21:37 * moritz_ doesn't know how it's parsed
21:37 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
21:37 moritz_ oh
21:37 moritz_ OH
21:38 pmichaud that's indeeded a bit weird.  I'm guessing it's the operator [] instead of the reduction []
21:38 moritz_ it's jsut infix<+>
21:38 pmichaud right
21:38 colomon ah.
21:38 moritz_ rakudo: say 1 [+] 3
21:38 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«4␤»
21:38 pmichaud [+] in infix position is same as +
21:38 moritz_ rakudo: say 1 [[[+]]] 5
21:38 colomon but isn't it a list on the RHS?
21:38 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«6␤»
21:38 colomon rakudo: say 1 + (2, 3)
21:38 moritz_ colomon: yep. In numeric context
21:38 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«3␤»
21:38 colomon ah.  right.
21:38 moritz_ colomon++ # spotting bug in my code
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21:41 pmichaud do we have tests for <time> and <now>?  I'm thinking RT #77904 can be closed
21:41 pmichaud rakudo: say now
21:41 p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Instant:2011-02-02T21:41:41.700150Z␤»
21:42 pmichaud I thought there was a 'needtests' status or something?
21:42 * pmichaud looks
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21:43 pmichaud found it
21:44 pmichaud time for a break
21:46 [Coke] I called it testneeded to match the existing test*
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21:49 pmurias sorear: is niecza powerfull enough for writing a moderatly complex gui app (a behaviour trees editor)?
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21:50 * moritz_ would be surprised if it weren't
21:51 masak pmurias: how will you do the GUI bindings?
21:52 pmurias that's the hard part
21:53 pmurias that is the one thing turing completness isn't enough for
21:54 pmurias masak: the best option would be to have the work magically
21:55 pmurias as hand binding stuff is annoying and doesn't give a better binding if it's not a C library
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21:57 masak I'm all for things working magically.
21:59 pmurias but it's possible to call C# stuff by some thing to embed niecza IR (NAM)
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22:00 moritz_ I've now created http://rakudo.de/testneeded and http://rakudo.de/testcommitted as redirects the corresponding RT queries
22:01 moritz_ and 'needstest' and 'hastest' as aliases
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22:01 masak moritz_++
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22:06 Tene For any vim users, I just discovered and rather like http://code.google.com/p/conque/wiki/Usage
22:07 kjeldahl left #perl6
22:07 Tene seems like a nice way to embed a terminal in a vim window, and I've had a few nice uses of sending Perl 6 code to a repl from a buffer.
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22:19 jnthn phenny: tell sorear answers in https://gist.github.com/808572
22:19 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
22:19 phenny jnthn: 17:27Z <sorear> tell jnthn thanks.
22:19 phenny jnthn: 17:28Z <sorear> tell jnthn In a STable, how many and which of the fields are REPR-dependant?
22:19 phenny jnthn: 17:28Z <sorear> tell jnthn How do subsets fit into the 6model type_check cache paradigm?
22:19 phenny jnthn: 17:43Z <sorear> tell jnthn At P6str.c line 128, why don't you mark the STRING?
22:19 phenny [Sorry, some messages were elided and lost...]
22:19 arnsholt Tene: That -does- seem useful
22:19 jnthn phenny: :P
22:21 jnthn pmichaud++ # fixing bugs \o/
22:21 * jnthn is muchly distracted by $teaching this week :)
22:21 lopaway is now known as lopnor
22:21 jnthn 2 more days, then normal life/hacking resumes. ;)
22:22 Tene arnsholt: I'm also trying to get in the habit of using surround.vim
22:22 Tene jnthn: what are you teaching?
22:23 jnthn Tene: Some .Net crap
22:23 jnthn Tene: Well, some of it's good too :)
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22:24 jnthn It's a web dev course. It's nice that at least one of the people in the class actually thinks about usability issues along the way. :)
22:24 Tene Nice.
22:24 jnthn Yeah, the students are a very nice bunch. :)
22:24 jnthn Makes it much more fun that way.
22:24 Tene I'm starting to miss teaching a bit.
22:25 jnthn You don't do it so much these days?
22:25 Tene No, I've been full-time sysadmin for about a year.
22:25 jnthn I couldn't cope with doing it every week, but it's nice to do.
22:25 jnthn Aww.
22:25 Tene Yeah, previous job was a bit too much.  I was teaching linux sysadmin classes almost every week.
22:25 Tene Lots of travel.
22:26 Tene Lots of fun, but was getting tiring after 2.5 years.
22:26 jnthn *nod8
22:26 jnthn I tend to teach about one class a month, roughly.
22:27 jnthn Normally locally, but they sent me up to Stockholm for this one. :)
22:27 masak oh dear, I think I've gotten used to Mu.
22:28 jnthn oh no, you accidentally Mu in Java instead of Object? ;)
22:28 masak not that used to it.
22:28 jnthn :)
22:29 masak I'm reading https://github.com/perl6/m​u/blob/master/misc/pm.txt , a very nice read.
22:29 masak in Ml-1, the reply had a few "Object"s in it. I found myself thinking "heh, that's old... that should be Mu..."
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23:02 masak I complained yesterday about the lack of good error reporting for multis.
23:03 masak there's a cute workaround that's worth knowing about.
23:03 masak define a most-general multi and have it give a good error :)
23:03 jnthn masak: Huh? Multi errors are quite informative these days, no?
23:04 masak jnthn: yes, they are.
23:05 masak they're just missing one essential part: what you passed in. :/
23:05 masak jnthn: but don't worry, the awesome vaporware state machine binder will solve that ;)
23:05 * masak haz plans
23:06 jnthn uh-oh :)
23:07 jnthn sleep &
23:07 masak oh, and I did my first C<(for ... { ... }) // ...> yesterday. pretty neat.
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23:41 * masak reads the reply to Pm-18 with widening eyes
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23:45 masak rakudo: (say "Found $_!" if $_ %% 10 for 7..12) or say "Aww"
23:45 p6eval rakudo 2666b6: OUTPUT«Found 10!␤»
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23:45 masak rakudo: (say "Found $_!" if $_ %% 10 for 11..12) or say "Aww"
23:45 p6eval rakudo 2666b6: OUTPUT«Aww␤»
23:45 masak rakudo: (say "Found $_!" if $_ %% 10 for 11..12) // say "Aww"
23:45 p6eval rakudo 2666b6:  ( no output )
23:45 masak hm. so it really is 'or' there, and not '//' ?
23:46 * masak looks in S04
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23:52 masak I can't find the place I'm looking for, but I guess it should be 'or', since an empty Seq isn't undefined.
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23:57 colomon n
23:57 masak nn
23:58 colomon whoever thought it was a good idea to shift focus from the "enter password" window to the normal irc window in the middle of initialization needs a lesson in UI design.
23:59 masak most UIs suck. film at eleven.

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