Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-02-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 flussence rakudo: sub a { ... }; say a.perl
00:00 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«undef␤»
00:00 flussence those shouldn't be different, right?
00:00 ash_ rakudo: Exception.perl.say
00:00 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«Exception␤»
00:01 TimToady rakudo: say a { ... }; say a.WHAT
00:01 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &a␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/dgmBeSUQjv␤»
00:01 TimToady rakudo: sub a { ... }; say a.WHAT
00:01 ash_ src/builtins/Exception.pir#93 has .return ('undef')
00:01 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
00:01 ash_ that might be it...
00:01 ash_ maybe?
00:01 ash_ maybe its a pir level exception
00:01 TimToady koobee
00:02 masak src/builtins/Exception.pir, line 93.
00:02 flussence yeah, builtins/Exception.p-... beat me to it :)
00:02 ash_ thats one of the only places i see it in the source as a string
00:03 ash_ is that right? or should that return say... "Exception" or a Mu?
00:03 masak yeah, probably.
00:03 TimToady or Nil
00:04 masak now that there's a bit more traffic on the channel, I'd like to repeat my offer of some Yapsi LHF: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-02-08#i_3268755
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00:04 TimToady rakudo: say (1+2i).fmt("%7.3f")
00:04 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«Not enough arguments supplied for the given format string␤  in 'Cool::sprintf' at line 2732:CORE.setting␤  in 'sprintf' at line 2766:CORE.setting␤  in 'Cool::fmt' at line 2554:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/0G1BeFRg4R␤»
00:04 TimToady there's some LHF I think
00:05 * masak submits rakudobug
00:06 ash_ is that even possible?
00:06 masak sure.
00:06 ash_ to print a complex number as a 7.3f?
00:06 masak should Complex be Cool? why?
00:06 TimToady the point is that .fmt tends to distribute formats over multiple values
00:06 PerlJam I guess that means both the real and imaginary components are 7.3f ?
00:07 masak left #perl6
00:07 TimToady so it should turn it into .fmt('%7.3f+%7.3fi') or some such
00:08 TimToady rakudo: say (1,2,3).fmt("%7.3f")
00:08 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«  1.000   2.000   3.000␤»
00:08 ash_ is there a 'i' for formats?
00:08 ash_ for complex values
00:08 masak joined #perl6
00:08 TimToady no, that's just a literal there
00:09 ash_ maybe i am thinking about it wrong, but f would coerce into a real number i'd expect...
00:09 masak ash_: .fmt is defined on Array, Hash, Pair...
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00:10 masak ash_: it dwims for structural types. could do the same for Complex.
00:10 TimToady rakudo: my $c = 1+2i; printf("%7.3f+%7.3fi", $c.re, $c.im);
00:10 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«  1.000+  2.000i»
00:10 flussence .fmt('%d') will work if the imaginary part == 0, just checked
00:10 TimToady little formatting problem with that
00:11 masak actually, I'll retract my rakudobug.
00:11 masak I'd like this to be spec'd first.
00:11 TimToady :P
00:11 PerlJam too bad you can't send an email to specbug :)
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00:12 TimToady rakudo: my $c = 1+2i; printf("%7.3f+%-7.3fi", $c.re, $c.im);
00:12 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«  1.000+2.000  i»
00:12 TimToady heh
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00:12 TimToady rakudo: my $c = 1+2i; printf("%7.3f+%.3fi", $c.re, $c.im);
00:12 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«  1.000+2.000i»
00:13 TimToady not sure that makes sense though
00:13 TimToady is there any prior art for complex printf formats?
00:15 masak joined #perl6
00:15 ash_ none in C99... #checking elsewhere
00:15 PerlJam Google didn't turn up anything other than formatting the real and imaginary parts separately
00:18 TimToady rakudo: say (1,2).fmt("%7.3f+%7.3fi")
00:18 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«Not enough arguments supplied for the given format string␤  in 'Cool::sprintf' at line 2732:CORE.setting␤  in 'sprintf' at line 2766:CORE.setting␤  in 'Cool::fmt' at line 2554:CORE.setting␤  in <anon> at line 2803:CORE.setting␤  in 'Any::join' at line 1␤  in 'List::fmt' at
00:18 p6eval ..line 280…
00:18 TimToady rakudo: say (1,2).fmt("%7.3f+","%7.3fi")
00:19 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«  1.000+%7.3fi  2.000+␤»
00:19 ash_ ruby will let you just do %s which just calls to_s, so... they look like "(1+1i)"
00:19 ash_ so... far... nope prior art i can find
00:19 TimToady well, sure, but there's no justification :)
00:20 TimToady rakudo: say (1+2i).fmt("%s")
00:20 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«1 + 2i␤»
00:20 TimToady ooh, spaces
00:21 masak spaces++
00:21 TimToady rakudo: say ~(1+2i).^methods
00:21 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«new reals isNaN Real Bool Complex Str perl abs exp ln sqrt roots polar sin asin cos acos tan atan sec asec cosec acosec cotan acotan sinh asinh cosh acosh tanh atanh sech asech cosech acosech cotanh acotanh ACCEPTS Numeric Int Rat Num succ pred log log10 to-radians
00:21 p6eval ..from-radians sig…
00:21 TimToady rakudo: say ~(1+2i).^methods(:local)
00:22 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«new reals isNaN Real Bool Complex Str perl abs exp ln sqrt roots polar sin asin cos acos tan atan sec asec cosec acosec cotan acotan sinh asinh cosh acosh tanh atanh sech asech cosech acosech cotanh acotanh ACCEPTS Numeric Int Rat Num succ pred log log10 to-radians
00:22 p6eval ..from-radians sig…
00:22 TimToady is there a method that pulls out .re and .im as a list
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00:23 flussence .reals
00:23 leprevost joined #perl6
00:23 PerlJam that's so misnamed
00:23 TimToady say (1+2i).reals.fmt("%7.3f")
00:24 masak what PerlJam said.
00:24 TimToady rakudo: say (1+2i).reals.fmt("%7.3f")
00:24 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«  1.000   2.000␤»
00:24 * masak considers getting a #perl6 badge "API naming curmudgeon"
00:24 masak wtf, .reals exists?!
00:24 TimToady it should obviously be named .reim
00:24 * masak submits rakudobug
00:24 PerlJam masak: yeah, I thought he was joking too
00:25 PerlJam masak++
00:25 masak whoever named that function, come talk with me at the end of the day. :)
00:25 PerlJam TimToady: .re+im  :)
00:25 flussence I'm of the opinion that Rat and Complex should use the same name for this list thing, but *
00:25 TimToady rakudo: say (1+2i).nude
00:25 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«Method 'nude' not found for invocant of class 'Complex'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/zJoJMNE7FJ␤»
00:26 masak flussence: only if you can beat both .nude and .reim in general cuteness :)
00:27 PerlJam .nude kind of works for them all  (you're having a peek underneath their classy clothes to see them naked)
00:27 TimToady but what if you have a complex rat?
00:27 TimToady or a rat with a complex?
00:27 masak PerlJam: I wouldn't like having .nude on Complex...
00:28 flussence .List or .Array would technically fit, but I can imagine such things confusing a lot of users.
00:28 masak that'd be as if *we* hadn't gotten the pun.
00:28 masak flussence: no please no
00:28 flussence not a serious suggestion :)
00:28 PerlJam I tend to think "components" when I'm looking at the innards of a Complex (or Rat)
00:28 TimToady "Can opener is required to open this can."
00:28 masak flussence: that's the same kind of thinko as arbritary rules for scalarifying lists.
00:29 brill joined #perl6
00:29 * TimToady whistles
00:29 masak :D
00:29 masak maybe there's a more general problem that calls for a solution?
00:29 masak something like "list all the public attributes"?
00:29 PerlJam $complex.list works for me :)
00:30 PerlJam @($complex) would be the same too I think
00:30 TimToady $complex.naughty-bits
00:30 wolverian .guts
00:30 masak PerlJam: my "you think it's cute now" lamp is lit on Complex.list
00:31 PerlJam wolverian: people might have difficulty with Rat.guts
00:33 flussence there's .^attributes for the general case, that's not very easy to use for this though
00:33 masak and those people would be perfectly ok with Rat.nude? :)
00:33 TimToady we already have naked mole rats
00:34 masak flussence: also, .^attributes makes no distinction between private and public attrs.
00:34 PerlJam .reals makes me with for we could mix modifiers like this: .fmt for .reals given $complex;   # :)
00:34 masak 'for .reals' :P
00:34 PerlJam s/with/wish/
00:34 flussence why can't we have ^attributes(:public|:private|:all) then, like ^methods does? :(
00:34 PerlJam actually ... s/with for/wish/
00:35 masak PerlJam: you can, if you put parens around the first for loop.
00:35 ash_ masak: is that going to change ever? .^attributes i mean, just wondering, not that its a bad thing i guess just curious
00:35 TimToady rakudo: say (1+2i).map({.re,.im}).fmt("%7.3f")
00:35 PerlJam yeah, but parens spoil it just a little
00:35 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«  1.000   2.000␤»
00:35 masak flussence: that's probably a good idea.
00:35 flussence I know you can filter them with a map, but :thingies is nicer to look at
00:35 masak yeah.
00:35 masak guess it's jnthn's call.
00:36 masak one'd have to be careful not to discriminate "public" attributes that are implemented as private attributes with an explicit accessor.
00:42 flussence S12:2261 looks relevant to that
00:45 flussence (that method list there looks unnecessarily complicated to me)
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00:51 * masak gets back to looking at what's wrong with .trans
00:53 PerlJam rakudo:  1-2i
00:53 p6eval rakudo cad076:  ( no output )
00:53 PerlJam rakudo:  say 1-2i
00:53 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«1 + -2i␤»
00:53 PerlJam anyone care if I make that output 1 - 2i ?
00:54 PerlJam or, does anyone have any objections I should say
00:54 masak I was sitting here wondering if I should bring it up... :)
00:54 masak so, +1 from me
00:55 coldhead the terser form saves bandwidth and soothes mathematicians
00:56 masak rakudo: say "!$_!" for 1.trans((1..26) => (14..26,1..13)), 2.trans((1..26) => (14..26,1..13))
00:56 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«No candidates found to invoke for method 'increment_index' on object of type 'LSM'; available candidates have signatures:␤:(Mu : Regex $s;; *%_)␤:(Mu : Str $s;; *%_)␤␤  in 'Cool::next_substitution' at line 2466:CORE.setting␤  in 'Cool::trans' at line 2512:CORE.setting␤  in
00:56 p6eval ..main pro…
00:56 masak oh, right.
00:56 * masak pushes his commit
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01:00 masak as soon as the above commit propagates to p6eval, I'll be able to show that the output of the above is "!14!\n!15!\n" (as expected), whereas if I do it as (1, 2)>>.trans(...), it comes out as "!14!\n!!\n".
01:00 masak er, s/above //
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01:01 dalek rakudo: 184bf7f | masak++ | src/core/Cool-str.pm:
01:01 dalek rakudo: [core/Cool-str] s/Str/Cool/ inside .trans
01:01 dalek rakudo:
01:01 dalek rakudo: Courtesy of Håkan Kjellerstrand.
01:01 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/184bf7f65d
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01:07 masak hm, this would be handled by !dispatch_dispatcher_parallel in src/glue/dispatch.pir ...
01:07 masak it looks like perfectly innocent PIR code.
01:07 masak "I notice that I am confused."
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01:09 masak doing the calls one after the other gives the desired result. doing the calls one after the other using the postfix_prefix_metaoperator Texas thingy doesn't give the desired result. there's nothing obviously wrong with the code that handles the dispatch.
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01:09 * masak broods
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01:11 masak rakudo: say "!$_!" for ("a", "b")>>.trans(("a", "b") => ("A", "B"))
01:11 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«!A!␤!b!␤»
01:11 masak rakudo: say "!$_!" for ("a", "b")>>.trans(["a", "b"] => ["A", "B"])
01:11 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«!A!␤!B!␤»
01:11 masak that's probably a clue.
01:11 * masak re-reads S05
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01:13 masak TimToady: S05:4138 -- why would I want to sort a bunch of Pairs, if these are sent to an LTM anyway?
01:13 masak feels like a very unrealistic example.
01:13 PerlJam great.  A *simple* change to rakudo and now my build gives a segfault.
01:15 masak oh wait. there is cause for .sort -- "In the case of two identical sequences the first in order wins."
01:16 TimToady but %mapping can't produce that
01:16 masak oh, right.
01:16 TimToady unless %mapping is bound to something not very hashy
01:16 TimToady feel free to fix
01:16 * masak fixes
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01:17 dalek specs: 44aa7e1 | masak++ | S05-regex.pod:
01:17 dalek specs: [S05] removed redundant .sort
01:17 dalek specs:
01:17 dalek specs: Sorting a bunch of pairs going into an LTM that disregards order is
01:17 dalek specs: kinda silly.
01:17 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/44aa7e1266
01:18 masak next on the agenda...
01:18 masak what should happen in the above case, with ("a", "b") instead of ["a", "b"]?
01:19 masak S05 explicitly requests "Array objects", but it just seems that people will do this and expect the same result with Seq, or whatever the type is for ("a", "b").
01:19 masak rakudo: say ("a", "b").WHAT
01:19 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
01:19 masak Parcel.
01:19 masak ETOOMANYTYPESPRETENDINGTOBELIST
01:20 ash_ i agree masak, there are a bunch of things that seem to be lists but not, i find it confusing at times to be honest
01:20 masak confusing? yeah!
01:21 masak flip side is, I guess, that if we accept a Parcel, then we have to have a plan for tackling named things.
01:21 masak ("a", :c, "b")
01:21 * Tene finally reads about (?PARNO) and (?&NAME) in perlre
01:22 * Tene really wants to use perl 6 grammars at work, but is still stuck on 5.8.4 on many hosts
01:22 Tene in the process of upgrading, but it's slow...
01:23 ash_ is there a perl5 module that approximates grammars?
01:23 ash_ perlbrew?
01:24 masak ash_: try http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Regexp-Grammars-1.012/lib/Regexp/Grammars.pm
01:24 Tene ash_: Better for me to spend my effort actually upgrading our infrastructure.
01:24 masak although 5.12 partially provides what Regexp::Grammars did for older Perls, IIUC.
01:25 masak rakudo: say "!$_!" for 1.trans((1..26) => (14..26,1..13)), 2.trans((1..26) => (14..26,1..13))
01:25 p6eval rakudo cad076: OUTPUT«No candidates found to invoke for method 'increment_index' on object of type 'LSM'; available candidates have signatures:␤:(Mu : Regex $s;; *%_)␤:(Mu : Str $s;; *%_)␤␤  in 'Cool::next_substitution' at line 2466:CORE.setting␤  in 'Cool::trans' at line 2512:CORE.setting␤  in
01:25 p6eval ..main pro…
01:25 masak ETOOSOON
01:26 masak ah, well.
01:26 masak 'night, #perl6.
01:26 PerlJam good night masak
01:26 ash_ night
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02:07 dalek specs: bf8cb5a | larry++ | S05-regex.pod:
02:07 dalek specs: spec set ops and parens for character classes
02:07 dalek specs:
02:07 dalek specs: This is in support of TR18 1.3 requirements.
02:07 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/bf8cb5adbe
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02:07 ryan_ is perl6 doing anything with google summer of code?
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02:09 TimToady dukeleto++ is organizing that
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04:28 sorear good * #perl6
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04:31 Tene SOREAR
04:31 Tene Yes, good *.
04:34 sorear phenny: tell masak I said github issue numbers were non-monotonic once.  I haven't brought it up since then because it turned out to be wrong.
04:34 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
04:35 sorear TimToady: niecza has a slightly different iterator implementation from Rakudo which is much faster.  Think I should push for it to be specced instead? :)
04:37 Tene sorear: I do.
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04:43 TimToady fast is good
04:43 TimToady at least until it's bad
04:44 TimToady there's always fast and wrong :)
04:45 sorear Tene: ?
04:45 sorear "SOREAR"
04:46 Tene sorear: Just a vague greeting.
04:48 sorear "fast and slightly wrong" may become "fast and right"
04:48 sorear once there's more consensus on what cheats are actually needed, the spec can be loosened
04:49 sorear probably noone would have thought to include nondeterministic rounding if C were designed top-down, but it turned out to be needed
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04:55 dalek specs: a99b93d | larry++ | S05-regex.pod:
04:55 dalek specs: more level 1 Unicode conformance verbiage
04:55 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/a99b93d997
05:01 sorear so, I'm generally happy to cut corners if I think there's an essential benefit to it
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05:17 sorear TimToady: so you regard { $<foo> = 2 } as a cheat?
05:18 TimToady yeah
05:18 sorear What do you think of Niecza's $<foo> = {2} block binding syntax?
05:20 TimToady it can probably de-cheat at need more handily than the assignment within a block
05:20 sorear cannot parse "de-cheat at"
05:21 sorear does S05:1605 describe a third operator precedence grammar?
05:21 TimToady that binding can be implemented on immutable cursors more easily, if it needs to be
05:21 TimToady since we have control of the internal cursor propagation at that point
05:21 sorear niecza has mostly-immutable cursors
05:21 sorear I changed niecza's STD.pm6 to use $<foo> = {2} syntax
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05:22 TimToady STD's are immutable most of the time too
05:22 sorear although it's not quite completely compatible - no good way to set <sig> etc
05:22 sorear niecza's are completely immutable except for &make
05:23 sorear the &make mechanism could in principle be extended to $<foo> = 2
05:23 TimToady we can use something other than assignment within a block
05:23 sorear I mean $<foo> := 2
05:23 TimToady $¢ = $¢.addname('foo',42)
05:24 TimToady then the new cursor doesn't have to be the same as the old one
05:24 TimToady or it can cheat if it likes, and return itself
05:24 TimToady but that can be an internal policy
05:24 sorear What are the semantics of assigning to $¢?
05:25 TimToady ref to Cursor
05:25 TimToady in P5 terms
05:25 TimToady basically construct a new cursor out of the old one
05:26 TimToady could implement some internal COW semantics
05:26 sorear I'm thinking the reasonable way to do this is to make $¢ be bound to something with set magic
05:26 TimToady or maybe we have enough static info to decide in advance
05:27 TimToady don't know what you mean by "set magic"
05:27 TimToady you do have to be careful to revert the bindings if you revert to an earlier cursor
05:28 TimToady strictly immutable cursors never have to be concerned about that
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05:28 TimToady STD cheats mostly only in stretches it knows can't backtrack
05:31 sorear TimToady: I mean set magic in the Perl 5 sense
05:31 sorear variables that run special code when assigned to
05:32 TimToady I don't think tying the cursors is going to speed anything up :/
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05:39 sorear TimToady: What sort of precedence grammar is created ca. S05:1605?
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05:43 sorear TimToady: can you explain the new semantics of ? in terms of %*BINDINGS and $*PLURALITY?
05:43 TimToady I think it should either be flat, or follow the same precedence as the correspondingly named operators in S03
05:44 * sorear looks forward to implementing the new regex stuff
05:48 TimToady I think the key is at viv:4238
05:49 TimToady it shouldn't set PLURALITY to 2 on a simple ?
05:49 sorear 4238 is a comment here
05:49 TimToady hmm, in RE_quantified atom, walk()
05:49 TimToady first local there
05:50 TimToady _walk, actually
05:50 TimToady line sez: local $::PLURALITY = 2;
05:51 TimToady that assume any quantifier forces plurality
05:51 TimToady *assumes
05:51 sorear Under what conditions should a read return Nil?
05:51 sorear As opposed to Any
05:52 TimToady as long as it comes out undefined somehow, I guess I'm not too picky
05:53 TimToady but Any tends to mean more like "uninitialized" while Nil tends to mean more like "missing"
05:54 TimToady the difference is that Any interpolates in a list as Any, while Nil turns into ()
05:55 TimToady and if you print out "Nil" it looks emptier to people :)
06:00 sorear TimToady: Does Nil come in interpolating and non-interpolating flavors like [] / @([]) ?
06:05 TimToady Nil is more like () than like [], so I suspect not
06:05 kaare__ is now known as kaare_
06:06 szabgab building rakudo failed on linux :(
06:06 szabgab starting again
06:12 szabgab parrot failed to build: http://pastebin.com/nSrjEnNN
06:19 dukeleto o/
06:21 szabgab hmm, running --gen-parrot and then   make realclean several times seemed to help cleaning it up and nowthe parrot generation worked
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06:31 szabgab oh good, I have running perl 6 again on my computer, now I can go back doing something else :)
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06:54 * sorear out
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07:28 snarkyboojum I enjoy reading these sorear/TimToady QA sessions :)
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07:47 Chirag Hello Everyone
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07:48 Chirag Perl 6!hmmm
07:48 TimToady howdy
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07:52 texasman23 hi
07:54 texasman23 3
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08:17 texasman23 hi everyone
08:17 moritz_ good morning
08:17 texasman23 where you all from
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08:18 texasman23 its 1am here
08:18 moritz_ most of us are from North America, Europe and Asia
08:18 moritz_ though the occasional Australian does sneak in :-)
08:18 moritz_ UTC+1 here
08:18 texasman23 im from usa
08:19 TimToady pmichaud is from texas, but he's probably asleep
08:19 moritz_ szabgab: when you get "This Parrot cannot read bytecode files with version ...", you should rm -rf parrot_install and cd parrot; git clean -xdf
08:20 texasman23 where's everyone? this chat looks dead
08:20 tadzik it's 9 AM in here
08:20 moritz_ tadzik: not dead at all... look at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today to get an idea for the activity level here
08:20 moritz_ sorry, meant texasman23
08:21 * moritz_ needs to go to $work
08:21 texasman23 well there is 234 users and looks like we are the only ones talking here
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08:25 * dukeleto sometimes talks in his sleep
08:27 dukeleto moritz_: any chance we can get a backtrace for Rakudo coredump on the generational_gc branch?
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08:33 jnthn morning o/
08:35 Tene dukeleto: bacek says he has a secret mystery patch for rakudo at home
08:35 jnthn dukeleto: iiuc, it's probably pointless to do so unless bacek++'s patch is applied.
08:35 Tene moritz_: it's polite, when telling people to git clean -xdf, to give them a warning that it will delete any files they may have been keeping in rakudo's root.
08:36 Tene I've bit myself that way a few times, when leaving a short test or experiment in rakudo's root dir.
08:36 Tene and I've found others to be far less dutiful at reading man pages than I am
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08:50 moritz_ Tene: you're right; though I want to point out that I recommended it for a parrot/ that was checked out with --gen-parrot, where the chances of own files are much smaller
08:52 dukeleto git clean and git reset are the only git commands will delete uncommitted files. Good to know.
08:54 Tene moritz_: you also want to clean the rakudo repo.  the "bytecode files with version ..." are at least sometimes rakudo's .pbc
08:55 Tene 'make clean' should be sufficient there, though
08:57 moritz_ Tene: yes, szabgab++ already did that
08:57 moritz_ if parrot just printed the name of the offending file, it would be much easier to diagnose
09:00 Tene What, you mean I'm supposed to read the *context* before spewing advice?  That's SO much WORK...
09:01 Tene :)
09:01 Tene That should be a very simple patch, actually...
09:02 moritz_ I've opened a parrot ticket for that, let me find it for you...
09:02 moritz_ Tene: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1833
09:03 * moritz_ changes the title to include the need for the file name
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09:18 bacek ~~
09:18 bacek jnthn, initial patch for rakudo nopasted to #parrot. It's a start but not enough.
09:19 jnthn bacek: Have you got a doc somewhere of where the write barriers have to be put?
09:19 jnthn I guess we're going to have to do a bunch of this in the 6model core too :)
09:20 bacek jnthn, nope. But basic idea is - if you are changing PMC guts outside of VTABLE marked with :write than you have to put it.
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09:20 bacek For 6model I'll take a look.
09:22 jnthn bacek: By PMC guts you mean, things that the PMC holds a reference too?
09:22 bacek jnthn, yes.
09:22 moritz_ (still segfaults with the patch)
09:22 bacek jnthn, take a loot at patch. It will give you an idea.
09:22 jnthn OK, so to take, e.g.
09:22 jnthn named_to_pos_cache = pmc_new(interp, enum_class_Hash);
09:22 jnthn +        PARROT_GC_WRITE_BARRIER(interp, llsig);
09:22 jnthn SETATTR_P6LowLevelSig_named_to_pos_cache(interp, llsig, named_to_pos_cache);
09:23 jnthn Then I have to put in the write barrier just before I SETATTR?
09:23 bacek moritz_, I know. Compiling Attributes.nqp?
09:23 jnthn Are the SETATTR macros special?
09:23 moritz_ compiling src/Perl6/Grammar.pm
09:24 bacek jnthn, nope. I just put WB close to point where guts changed.
09:24 bacek --- a/src/pmc/class.pmc
09:24 bacek +++ b/src/pmc/class.pmc
09:24 bacek @@ -543,6 +543,7 @@ make_class_name(PARROT_INTERP, ARGIN(PMC *SELF))
09:24 bacek if (!PMC_IS_NULL(names))
09:24 bacek /* remove the HLL namespace name */
09:24 bacek VTABLE_shift_string(interp, names);
09:24 bacek +                PARROT_GC_WRITE_BARRIER(interp, SELF);
09:24 bacek _class->fullname = Parrot_str_join(interp, CONST_STRING(interp,
09:24 bacek return _class->fullname;
09:24 bacek }
09:24 bacek This is another example.
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09:25 jnthn bacek: It needs to come *before* the change is made though? Or that doesn't matter?
09:25 moritz_ so, whenever heap memory is changed?
09:25 bacek jnthn, doesn't matter. But after possible GC. E.g. allocate new PMC.
09:26 bacek moritz_, whenever after GC can be triggered.
09:29 moritz_ I don't know what can trigger a GC run
09:29 bacek moritz_, any allocation of pmc/string.
09:29 bacek pmc_new, str_join, etc
09:34 moritz_ does the C API declare which functions allocate new PMCs or strings?
09:35 bacek moritz_, hmm. Unlikely.
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10:08 jnthn bacek: OK, thanks. I'll take a look at it and see how 6model works out on it.
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10:12 masak hi, zebras.
10:12 phenny masak: 04:34Z <sorear> tell masak I said github issue numbers were non-monotonic once.  I haven't brought it up since then because it turned out to be wrong.
10:12 masak ok.
10:12 jnthn yayitsmasak!
10:12 masak \o/
10:17 masak rakudo: say "!$_!" for 1.trans((1..26) => (14..26,1..13)), 2.trans((1..26) => (14..26,1..13))
10:17 p6eval rakudo 184bf7: OUTPUT«!14!␤!15!␤»
10:17 masak rakudo: say "!$_!" for (1, 2)>>.trans((1..26) => (14..26,1..13))
10:18 p6eval rakudo 184bf7: OUTPUT«!14!␤!!␤»
10:19 * masak submits rakudobug
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10:27 masak rakudo: say "!$_!" for (1, 2)>>.trans([1..26] => [14..26,1..13])
10:28 p6eval rakudo 184bf7: OUTPUT«!14!␤!15!␤»
10:28 masak could this be -- *gasp* -- an iterator-related bug?
10:29 jnthn duh duh DUUUHHH!
10:30 * masak does a "melodramatic squirrel" look
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10:59 wolfram_ TimToady: I do use complex. Would have been quite a mess to get an FFT running without. $twd is purely imaginary.
10:59 phenny wolfram_: 08 Feb 23:43Z <TimToady> ask wolfram_ /me is kinda wondering why you used evens and odds instead of the complex numbers that Perl 6 has built in...
11:00 wolfram_ That makes (^@odd).map(* * $twd)».exp a sequence of evenly spaced values on the unit circle in the complex number plane.
11:01 wolfram_ The even and odd are due to the way the Cooley–Tukey FFT algorithm works (butterfly graphs)
11:02 moritz_ wolfram_: you can get the evenly spaced values on the unit circle also by using (1+0i).roots($number)
11:02 moritz_ rakudo: say ~(1+0i).roots(4)
11:02 p6eval rakudo 184bf7: OUTPUT«1 + 0i 6.12323399573677e-17 + 1i -1 + 1.22464679914735e-16i -1.83697019872103e-16 + -1i␤»
11:03 wolfram_ You separate a sum into it's even and odd components and discover that once you factor out a complex value, you are left with 2 smaller FFTs to calculate.
11:03 moritz_ rakudo: say (1+0i).roots(4).join('   ')
11:03 p6eval rakudo 184bf7: OUTPUT«1 + 0i   6.12323399573677e-17 + 1i   -1 + 1.22464679914735e-16i   -1.83697019872103e-16 + -1i␤»
11:04 wolfram_ Also remember that the input sequence of the FFT may well be comlex numbers already. Either because you do an ifft using the fft or you have a complex time domain series (-> analytic signal, Hilbert transform)
11:07 masak wolfram_++ # butterfly graph
11:07 wolfram_ moritz_: I'll have a look if that can be used. Thanks.
11:09 moritz_ rakudo: say (1+0i).roots(4)>>.polar.perl
11:09 p6eval rakudo 184bf7: OUTPUT«((1, 0), (1, 1.5707963267949), (1, 3.14159265358979), (1, -1.5707963267949))␤»
11:09 moritz_ rakudo: say (1+0i).roots(4)>>.polar>>.[1].perl
11:09 p6eval rakudo 184bf7: OUTPUT«(undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, undef)␤»
11:09 moritz_ urks
11:09 coldhead that looks much harder to graph
11:09 moritz_ rakudo: say (1+0i).roots(4)>>.polar.[1, 3, 5, 7].perl
11:10 p6eval rakudo 184bf7: OUTPUT«(0, 1.5707963267949, 3.14159265358979, -1.5707963267949)␤»
11:10 moritz_ rakudo: say ((1+0i).roots(4)>>.polar.[1, 3, 5, 7] X* (180 / pi)).perl
11:10 p6eval rakudo 184bf7: OUTPUT«(0, 90, 180, -90)␤»
11:11 wolfram_ Why did .[1] not work?
11:11 moritz_ rakudo: say ((1+0i).roots(8)>>.polar.[1, 3 ... 15] X* (180 / pi)).perl
11:11 p6eval rakudo 184bf7: OUTPUT«(0, 45, 90, 135, 180, -135, -90, -45)␤»
11:11 moritz_ wolfram_: because >> flattens
11:12 wolfram_ Ah, just looked at [1] and [1, 3, 5, 7]. Didn't see other changes.
11:14 moritz_ anyway, I admire compactly written algorithms that are still readable :-)
11:15 wolfram_ What's the opposite of .polar? i.e. polar to rectangular
11:16 flussence .unpolar
11:17 wolfram_ Thanks
11:17 flussence or .cis, according to S32/Numeric
11:18 wolfram_ .cis ? That's either german music (cis = c sharp) or chemistry (cis and trans) to me.
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11:22 masak 'cis' might here be an abbreviation for 'cos + i * sin'.
11:22 masak if you ask me, having both .unpolar and .cis feels a little unnecessary.
11:23 moritz_ but it's very unintuitive if you are used to exp(I arg) :-)
11:24 wolfram_ Just also looked at S32/Numeric. Cis is 1.unpolar, so here we have another way to get values on the complex unit circle.
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11:26 masak &
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11:29 tadzik why german music? Cis is international
11:30 wolfram_ moritz_: but maybe cis can be implemented to be efficient that complex exp
11:31 wolfram_ tadzik: thought it was c-sharp, c-flat in english at least
11:32 wolfram_ s/efficient that/more efficient than/
11:34 colomon Yes, Cis is definitely not used in music in America.
11:36 wolfram_ Maybe it's cis everywhere else in the world. Just like aluminium :-)
11:37 colomon I'm never gotten the impression it's used anywhere there are English speakers.
11:39 tadzik hmm, weird
11:39 wolfram_ Fortunately americans don't use demi-semi-quavers
11:40 tadzik so you don't use bemolle either?
11:40 colomon I don't even know what it is.
11:40 tadzik it's the Flat
11:40 colomon (And that's with 28 years of playing classic music under my belt.)
11:40 tadzik F♭
11:40 daxim b-moll   moll is "minor", dur is "major"
11:41 colomon I knew moll for minor, but that only ever crops up in the names of pieces of music printed overseas, in my experience.  :)
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11:42 daxim do not worry, once I become emperor of the world, I will standardise on the appropriate terms
11:42 tadzik and remove timezones
11:42 wolfram_ And demisemiquavers are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-second_note
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11:43 tadzik phenny: "trzydzestkadwójka"?
11:43 phenny tadzik: Language guessing failed, so try suggesting one!
11:43 tadzik phenny: "trzydziestkadwójka"?
11:43 phenny tadzik: Language guessing failed, so try suggesting one!
11:43 tadzik neh
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11:43 daxim gesundheit!
11:43 tadzik phenny: "trzydziestka dwójka"?
11:43 phenny tadzik: "thirty two" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
11:44 tadzik close
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12:04 tadzik http://wklej.org/id/472774/ -- what kind of syntax is that? It's nqp, from a parrot-dev mail. What are those calls doing in the class body, declaring attributes, methods?
12:08 jnthn tadzik: Something awful :)
12:09 jnthn tadzik: The way HLL::Compiler works up to npq-rx ends up trying to store attributes in a type object.
12:09 jnthn tadzik: It works out better in new nqp :)
12:10 kjeldahlw joined #perl6
12:10 tadzik as everything :)
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12:18 dalek niecza: adbc41e | pmurias++ | cl-backend/backend.lisp:
12:18 dalek niecza: [cl-backends] modules set the xref, minor refactoring
12:18 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/adbc41e360
12:18 dalek niecza: ac81267 | pmurias++ | / (2 files):
12:18 dalek niecza: [cl-backend]
12:18 dalek niecza: when doing method dispatch the type of the invocant is taken into account
12:18 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/ac81267481
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12:30 szabgab In the meantime I submitted a Perl 6 talk to LinuxTag Berlin, we will see if that gets accepted and then I might need update myself a bit
12:30 szabgab people start asking question ...
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13:01 takadonet morning all
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13:11 masak takadonet: \o
13:11 tadzik where's hugme? :(
13:14 pmurias what does the hugme bot do?
13:15 tadzik hugs. And gives commmit bits to repos
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13:55 [Coke] rakudo: (1..10).classify(*%%3).perl.say
13:55 p6eval rakudo 184bf7: OUTPUT«("Bool::False" => [1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10], "Bool::True" => [3, 6, 9])␤»
13:55 [Coke] why don't we need to put *%%3 in a block there?
13:55 masak because the * sugars in its own block.
13:55 masak * %% 3 corresponds to { $_ %% 3 }
13:56 [Coke] sweet.
13:56 masak very.
13:56 [Coke] and why are the booleans quoted? is it because hashes are still string-only keys?
13:56 masak aye.
13:56 [Coke] danke.
13:57 masak and even in the future, when we have other kinds of hashes, string-only will still be the default.
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14:02 PerlJam greets #perl6
14:02 masak hola PerlJam
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14:04 uvtc Hi. What do zebras have to do with Perl 6?
14:04 PerlJam uvtc: everything!
14:04 uvtc hehe.
14:05 uvtc I don't get the joke. First thought was that maybe it had something to do with "horse of a different color".
14:05 masak like when you're doing a bootstrap, some things are there simply because they're there.
14:05 masak that's the explanation with the zebras.
14:06 masak grep the IR clogs if you're really interested, but that's basically it.
14:06 uvtc Ok, I will grep the infrared logs.
14:06 jnthn Some things inperll6 are just random. It's not always black and white.
14:06 jnthn ;)
14:07 uvtc Ah.
14:07 masak trust jnthn to turn an answer into a pun ;)
14:07 PerlJam trust #perl6 to pun everything
14:08 masak "I think this situation isn't as zebra as you make it sound."
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14:09 PerlJam this is one of the few places where there's just enough ambiguity to be interesting and not enough to be confusing (at least once you understand that puns are rampant here)
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14:11 masak puns...? people are being explicitly ambiguous over here...?
14:11 masak why, this explains a _lot_... :)
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14:12 PerlJam only when its clearer to be ambiguous.
14:13 masak Welcome to #perl6. We're unambiguous here... to a first approximation.
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14:30 Su-Shee hrmpf. I would need hugme now..
14:31 * PerlJam hugs Su-Shee as a proxy
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14:31 * Su-Shee sighs happily. much better. ;)
14:31 * sjn hugs Su-Shee by using the new hugging proxy, PerlJam
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14:31 PerlJam heh
14:32 Su-Shee are we implementing HUG CHAINS? :)
14:32 PerlJam Get a few more people invovled and we can start a hug pile
14:32 masak oof
14:32 Su-Shee hug chain smiley: (o)->(o)->(o)->(o)
14:33 masak a hug pile was how my mobile camera stopped working :P
14:34 flussence maybe we need a hug-tracking database while hugme's offline...
14:34 masak "needshugs"
14:34 masak "This ticket has been hugged properly. Resolving."
14:34 sjn what's a shug?
14:35 PerlJam "please place your hug request with #perl6 and we'll get a hug to you as soon as possible"
14:35 * flussence shrugs
14:35 masak sjn: the Shug is a distant relative to the Yeti.
14:35 masak sjn: extremely reclusive, to the point where *nobody* has seen it.
14:35 sjn masak: cool, why do you need several of them? :)
14:35 masak they make really soft carpets.
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14:36 masak usually they leave them outside the doors of unsuspecting villagers in the middle of the night. :P
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14:44 masak hm, 'shug' sounds like a project name looking for a project :)
14:45 jnthn .oO( Austin Powers: The spy who shug me )
14:45 jnthn So clearly it's the Perl 6 mojolicious port. ;)
14:46 _sri shagadelic
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14:50 dalek rakudo: 03380cd | perlpilot++ | src/core/Complex.pm:
14:50 dalek rakudo: better format complex numbers
14:50 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/03380cdcb9
14:55 * masak .oO( The Shug Who Made me a Rug )
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14:57 masak wallberg! \o/
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15:07 [Coke] PerlJam: I wonder why you did that as 2 lines.
15:07 szabgab hmm, there should be a competition between Dancer and Mojolicious , the first one that has a Perl 6implementation can claim the name shug
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15:07 masak :)
15:07 PerlJam [Coke]: because that's what flowed from my head first.  If you want to make it one line, feel free :)
15:07 _sri does that mean non-blocking io is implemented now?
15:07 [Coke] PerlJam: not especially. Just wondering. ;)
15:08 masak _sri: does what mean that? and implemented where?
15:08 _sri re szabgab
15:08 PerlJam _sri: does that mean you're volunteering to do it if it isn't?
15:08 PerlJam :-)
15:08 szabgab if you want a shug you need to shave a yak
15:09 masak _sri: I'm not aware of anyone wanting non-blocking IO as dearly as you right now.
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15:09 masak _sri: it *used* to be a goal of Parrot's, I think.
15:10 szabgab _sri: and I don't understand your concern, both Dancer and Mojo would have the same limitations
15:11 _sri i'm not going to attempt a port without non-blocking io, no point
15:11 masak guess you'll just have to charm someone within Rakudo/Parrot to implement it, then.
15:11 _sri tried that like two years ago
15:11 wallberg hi all
15:12 _sri tbh i've lost hope
15:12 _sri i don't believe in perl6 anymore
15:12 masak you're entitled to that opinion.
15:13 szabgab _sri: I am confused now
15:13 szabgab did you have visitors on #mojolicious saying they don't belive in Mojolicious any more?
15:13 sorear good * #perl6
15:13 _sri szabgab: you brought the topic up
15:13 PerlJam _sri: if you had some Perl 6 code that used non-blocking IO, that would be a strong incentive for someone to implement it I think.
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15:14 PerlJam _sri: also, they'd have something to test against.
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15:29 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:29 pmichaud Today is now our fifth snow day of the year.  :-/
15:29 pmichaud (fifth day of school closings due to snow)
15:30 sjn pmichaud: there's only one good word for that, and it's "tiddelibom" :)
15:30 sjn </obscure norwegian humour>
15:31 PerlJam sjn: not that obscure.  (I've heard of it before and I live in south Texas :)
15:31 sjn o_O
15:32 arnsholt sjn: It could be that Thorbjørn Egner might have stolen it. From an Englishman, for example =)
15:32 sjn arnsholt: could be :D
15:32 MayDaniel joined #perl6
15:32 * sjn tries to imagine how an englishman would pronounce that word
15:33 PerlJam or it could be that the Internet had made the world just a little smaller ;)
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15:34 * pmichaud looks forward to riding "Maelstrom" in the Norway pavilion at Epcot this weekend
15:38 szabgab pmichaud: hi, was there any progress on overtaking the Texas Linux Fest by Perl skaters?
15:38 pmichaud szabgab: I haven't seen much movement on that, no.  I'm sending in my talk proposal tomorrow
15:38 colomon pmichaud: If you think there's any chance you might go to see the Canada 360 movie, I've got a favor to ask of you.  :)
15:38 pmichaud Maybe I'll ping the APM and DFW.pm folks again and say "hey, get moving!"
15:39 pmichaud I know at least one other DFW.pm regular is planning to attend Linux fest
15:39 pmurias sorear: class Foo {...} has an entry in the stash without an xref? is that correct?
15:39 pmichaud colomon: seeing Canada 360 is likely 50/50.  We'll go if we need a break from walking.... so, what's the favor?
15:39 szabgab I need to kick some * there so they will move their *
15:39 sorear pmurias: yes, it's correct
15:40 sorear pmurias: the entry is responsible for the namespace Foo::
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15:42 colomon pmichaud: My memory (from 1996 or so) is that there is a scene of a bunch of musicians playing with a fiddler in Atlantic Canada in the movie.  I'm wondering if it is this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS8Xllf7Nyk
15:43 colomon pmichaud: I didn't know who he was last time I saw the film there, so it didn't mean anything to me.  But he was definitely filmed in Circlevision by Disney at some point.  And if it is him, I probably know some of the other musicians personally.  :)
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15:43 colomon pmichaud: I was just hoping that you could keep an eye out for the scene.
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15:43 colomon pmichaud: and let me know if I'm imagining things or not.
15:44 pmichaud colomon: looks like WDW updated the movie in 2007
15:44 colomon pmichaud: oh, interesting.
15:45 PerlJam Blah!  It's rainy here today and it'll be cold later :(
15:45 pmichaud Blah!  It's cold here now and it'll be even colder later.  :(
15:45 PerlJam yeah, but snow is better than rain  :)
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15:52 colomon pmichaud: anyway, if you go to O Canada, keep an eye out for fiddlers and let me know if there are still any in the movie -- particularly if one is an old guy with a beret.  Danke.  :)
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15:52 pmichaud will do.  Searching for "Emile Benoit" and "O Canada" with google doesn't come up with any hits, though.
15:52 pmichaud so I'm guessing either (1) no, or (2) completely uncredited
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15:55 colomon pmichaud: we actually contacted the Disney archivist with the question a few years ago (pre-2007) and he couldn't determine one way or the other, weirdly enough.  So certainly uncredited if there, I'd say.
15:56 pmichaud My brother works at WDW; I suspect he could find out easily enough.
15:57 pmichaud he could certainly make it over to the Canada pavilion and check for me.  He might even have access to the pre-2007 film.
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15:58 colomon pmichaud: oooo.... sounds like an awful lot of work for a fairly trivial detail, though.  :)
15:58 pmichaud oh, he's there all of the time.  I bet he'd find it fun and interesting.
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16:02 colomon pmichaud: Well, I certainly wouldn't object to your asking him, but please make clear it's a lark, and he shouldn't bother unless he does find it -Ofun.
16:03 pmichaud here's a picture of my brother at work:
16:03 pmichaud 15:55 <colomon> pmichaud: we actually contacted the Disney archivist with the question a few years ago (pre-2007) and he couldn't determine one  way or the other, weirdly enough.  So certainly uncredited if there, I'd say.
16:03 pmichaud 15:56 <pmichaud> My brother works at WDW; I suspect he could find out easily enough.
16:03 pmichaud oooops
16:03 pmichaud http://pmichaud.com/sandbox/mickey-lucas.jpg  # my brother is on the right
16:03 colomon that is one awesome picture!
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16:05 pmichaud yes, he loves his job.  :-)
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16:05 sbp I hope Mickey wins
16:06 pmichaud in the official (retouched) version of that photo, Mickey has the green light saber and Lucas has the red one.  So.....
16:07 sbp hmm :-)
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16:09 colomon pmichaud: that explains a lot.  ;)
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16:43 bah_ hey guys .. hope you guys are having a great day (err .. night) ...
16:44 tadzik still day
16:44 bah_ i just had a doubt that has been bugging me
16:44 tadzik notmuch, I'm perhaps the most badluck guy today. But thanks
16:44 tadzik hugme: hug me
16:44 * hugme hugs tadzik
16:44 pmichaud ..."bugged doubt"?
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16:44 masak bah_: let's hear your doubt.
16:45 bah_ is it possible to pass a chunk of text to say a function .... and what we get in return is the name of the grammar that it implements ?
16:46 tadzik that implements what?
16:46 tadzik ah, parsing that function?
16:46 tadzik bah, string
16:47 bah_ lets say i i call " 1 2 + 3 *".get_grammar and i get Postfix in return
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16:48 bah_ its kind of like grammar detection of the an arbitrary dsl
16:49 bah_ forgive my typos ... tiny keyboard :)
16:49 arnsholt That's not exactly simple to do
16:49 pmichaud bah_: are you assuming there's a set of predefined grammars somewhere that would be selected from?
16:49 bah_ hmm .. yes
16:50 pmichaud then it's pretty easy :)
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16:50 bah_ oh .. thats awesome
16:50 pmichaud my @matches =   " 1 2 + 3 * " ~~ $_ for @list_of_predefined_grammars;
16:50 pmichaud er
16:50 pmichaud yeah
16:50 pmichaud something like that
16:50 pmichaud maybe grep
16:51 pmichaud my @matches = @list_of_predefined_grammars.grep( { $string ~~ $_ } )
16:52 bah_ can it be done for a larger piece of string , which can possibly have multiple grammars in it ?
16:52 pmichaud depends on the grammar definitions, I'd think
16:53 bah_ coz i was thinking how lisp macros are comfortable with calling and using other lisp macros ... and whether the same logic can be applied to perl6 grammars
16:54 bah_ @matches =   " 1 2 + 3 * " ~~ $_ for @list_of_predefined_grammars; if (@matches.size == 1) { $[0].eval}
16:57 bah_ i'll defintely polish my doubt further and come back to you pmichaud ... thanks for your time ... :)
16:58 bah_ btw when can we expect rakudo.supernova to release ?
16:58 masak bah_: you'll want 'grep' there, not 'for'.
16:58 masak bah_: since you want to do a single list assignment, not several.
16:58 bah_ sure .. i'll keep that in mind
16:59 masak bah_: re Supernova -- what would you like it to be that Star isn't?
16:59 bah_ yes
16:59 masak because right now, it feels like we don't exactly know that.
16:59 masak it wasn't a yes/no question, it was a 'what' question :)
17:00 bah_ basically the next awesome version of rakudo .. its going to be a supernova right ?
17:00 pmichaud we haven't named it yet, no.
17:01 pmichaud but given that Perl 6 and Rakudo are "disruptive technologies", part of execution means that we often don't know the obvious "next step" in development
17:01 bah_ i understand
17:01 pmichaud anyway, I suspect the next release series will focus on one or more of (a) modules, (b) multiplatform, or (c) speed
17:02 masak bah_: so far, there's been a new awesome Rakudo Star release each month. from now on, they'll be coming every third month.
17:03 pmichaud we might also have a domain-specific release series, but we're not entirely clear about that.  In some sense I'd be very interested in seeing a documentation/publishing/text-handling focused distribution
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17:03 pmichaud I don't think we're quite at a performance level where focusing on the web makes sense... but document processing could be very beneficial.  As a bonus, it might help us with our own documentation and publication efforts :-)
17:05 * masak works harder on his Pandoc clone
17:08 pmichaud afk
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17:12 tadzik masak: niecza-powered
17:12 tadzik ?
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17:24 dalek specs: 4ec52e3 | larry++ | S05-regex.pod:
17:24 dalek specs: got & and | backwards; note precedence is "normal"
17:24 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/4ec52e31db
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17:28 masak tadzik: yes.
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17:42 [Coke] Why is it .uniq and not .unique?
17:42 [Coke] (I know, unix did it that way). Should it be updated to be more verbose?
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17:43 Eevee because terminal q is awesome.
17:43 flussence uniq is more unique
17:44 TimToady it's uniqer
17:44 flussence I dunno, there's lots of abbreviated method names, maybe this is more consistent like this
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17:44 TimToady and it makes yet another four-letter word in the vocabulary
17:45 masak right. 'uniq' seems to be about the right amount of huff.
17:46 [Coke] I am very amused by the google ads server for the comb wordpress article (inc: professional lice removal!)
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17:46 masak :D
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17:51 arnsholt GitHub makes it easier for me to nab code from Rakudo. Yay, one supposes. ^_^
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18:02 [Coke] giving proper attribution and respecting licensing!
18:05 arnsholt Of course
18:09 arnsholt Even though it should be available via Parrot =/
18:09 [Coke] what is you need from parrot that isn't there?
18:09 arnsholt Can't find it at least
18:10 arnsholt I'm trying to update my HLL to build and checkout Parrot from git rather than SVN
18:10 moritz_ speed!
18:10 arnsholt I asked in #parrot, but didn't get any replies
18:11 [Coke] Are you having trouble with the git commands?
18:11 moritz_ arnsholt: I think "steal from Rakudo" is a good answer :-)
18:11 [Coke] mmm. certainly rakudo already has that working.
18:12 arnsholt No, git isn't a problem. It's getting Configure.pl and friends to do it right
18:12 arnsholt tools/dev/create_language.pl generates a Configure.pl that's part-way there
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18:13 arnsholt It uses git, but it still assumes that the revision in build/PARROT_REVISION is numeric
18:13 arnsholt Which seems to be messing things up
18:13 [Coke] Ok. there's no one right way to do that (and I think parrot encourages you to use an installed version, anyway), so I can see that not being in parrot.
18:13 [Coke] ... that's definitely worth opening a bug for.
18:14 [Coke] https://trac.parrot.org/
18:14 arnsholt Right. I'll do that
18:15 [Coke] arnsholt++
18:16 arnsholt An installed Parrot has caused trouble with Rakudo in that past I think
18:16 arnsholt Is that no longer the case?
18:16 [Coke] rakudo requires an installed parrot.
18:16 [Coke] it just installs it into a local subdir if you don't have one yet.
18:17 benabik arnsholt: I tend to build and install them separately.  I've had no problems, although I always rebuild rakudo every time I rebuilt parrot.
18:17 arnsholt Right. Maybe I'll try doing that instead
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19:12 masak arnsholt: you have an HLL?
19:12 * masak gets curious
19:12 dukeleto arnsholt: yes, the create_language.pl and mk_language_shell.pl scripts don't yet know about the Git New World
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19:25 arnsholt dukeleto: Yeah, I sorta noticed
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19:25 arnsholt create_language.pl sort of does, though. It runs git commands, but not correctly it seems
19:26 arnsholt masak: Yeah, a Prolog
19:26 arnsholt Contributions are most welcome =)
19:26 tadzik wow, Prolog
19:26 PerlJam I was thinking something more like "yuck prolog"
19:26 PerlJam :)
19:26 tadzik never used it
19:27 arnsholt Prolog is awesome
19:27 tadzik I imagine it as a black box shouting "YES" "NO" repeadately
19:27 PerlJam I haven't used it in years, but I'm willing to bet it hasn't changed since I last saw it :)
19:27 arnsholt If a bit special-purpose
19:27 tadzik ...did I spell it right?
19:27 sbp repeatedly
19:27 tadzik thanks sbp
19:27 sbp yw
19:28 dual left #perl6
19:28 PerlJam tadzik: prolog is really a special purpose pattern matching engine.
19:28 allbery_b prolog is interesting, but should never be used for anything but its core relation-db competency.  otherwise... it reminded me of hacking sendmail.cf before EASE
19:29 arnsholt The killer feature in Prolog is backtracking
19:29 arnsholt Gives you so many useful things for free
19:29 allbery_b (in both cases I could do it, but oy.  otoh at this point I've mostly forgotten the details of Prolog)
19:30 dual joined #perl6
19:30 arnsholt There's a theorem prover called leanCoP, whose core prover logic requires a whopping 555 bytes
19:31 arnsholt Which is possible because all the required non-determinism is built into Prolog, of course
19:31 abraxxa left #perl6
19:34 PerlJam arnsholt: so ... why prolog exactly?  Just 'cause, or do you want to hook it up to something else via parrot?
19:34 arnsholt See also http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html: "Alain Colmerauer designs the logic language Prolog. His goal is to create a language with the intelligence of a two year old. He proves he has reached his goal by showing a Prolog session that says "No." to every query."
19:34 tadzik :D
19:34 arnsholt My prime motivation is pretty much, just 'cause =)
19:34 masak arnsholt: nice!
19:35 tadzik That reminded me of my nephew, who said "Me!" on every question
19:35 arnsholt At some point I'd like to try hook it up to Perl 6 slangs as well
19:35 tadzik then Dad asked him "who's cleaning the plates today?" Suprisingly, Mikołaj said "Daddy"
19:35 masak arnsholt: yay!
19:36 tadzik . o O ( use Prolog 'will this run?'; )
19:36 arnsholt =D
19:37 PerlJam Was it Ovid who did the Perl 5 prolog module(s)?
19:37 PerlJam in anycase, you have a perl 5 implementation to crib from  :)
19:38 arnsholt Yeah AI::Prolog is Ovid's work. I've looked at his code for inspiration
19:38 arnsholt But the main catalyst was a (Common) Lisp book, actually
19:38 benabik tadzik: Based on the above quote, I'd expect the answer to be 'No.', even if it did work.  :-D
19:38 tadzik ;)
19:39 arnsholt It had an implementation of non-deterministic search using continuations
19:39 tadzik it should die if tests do not exist
19:39 arnsholt I promptly remembered that Parrot has native continuations and decided to try to implement Prolog on Parrot
19:41 dukeleto arnsholt: does this prolog on parrot have a repo somewhere?
19:42 arnsholt https://github.com/arnsholt/parrotlog
19:43 arnsholt It's been a while since I worked on it, but I'm trying to get back to it
19:43 PerlJam arnsholt: can I suggest a name change?   "parlog"  :)
19:43 tadzik parrotlog is like Parrot Log
19:44 aindilis` left #perl6
19:44 masak "Conlog" :)
19:44 arnsholt Yeah, I'm not too happy with the name
19:45 arnsholt masak: *groan*
19:45 arnsholt Took me a second to get, even ^^
19:45 tadzik it still takes _me_ a second :)
19:46 tadzik oh! :)
19:46 PerlJam amateurlog was too long
19:49 arnsholt Good suggestions all
19:49 arnsholt Maybe I'll change the name =)
19:51 daxim left #perl6
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19:52 dalek specs: 81058c1 | larry++ | S05-regex.pod:
19:52 dalek specs: define extensible boundary syntax
19:52 dalek specs:
19:52 dalek specs: The Unicode folks seem to want an extensible boundary syntax with \b,
19:52 dalek specs: but we've abandoned \b for boundary, so it's now <|x> for various
19:52 dalek specs: values of x.  (And <!|x> is the negation, so no need for <|X>.)
19:52 dalek specs: <?wb> is now <|w>.
19:52 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/81058c1922
19:55 TimToady basically <|x> is a zero-width match like <?foo> but x lives in its own namespace of boundary names, not in normal rulename space
19:58 masak nod.
20:00 fhelmberger left #perl6
20:01 colomon for some reason, <|x> (above) scared me, but <|w> seems comforting and reassuring...
20:02 justatheory left #perl6
20:03 moritz_ so <|s> would be a boundary between \s and \S?
20:03 moritz_ maybe I should actually read the diff
20:07 colomon It doesn't actually say in the diff, that I can see, but it seems that would make sense.
20:13 TimToady there's no general rule like that, but we could define <|s> to mean that
20:14 TimToady but we'll have to see what other boundaries the unicrazies come up with and try not to conflict...
20:15 dalek specs: 1a7a9d9 | larry++ | S0 (2 files):
20:15 dalek specs: defined case folding by unicode support level
20:15 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/1a7a9d90ba
20:16 MayDaniel left #perl6
20:22 dalek specs: 8e01231 | larry++ | S05-regex.pod:
20:22 dalek specs: explicitly note support for <:name(/pattern/)>
20:22 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/8e012311f1
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20:50 masak sorear: niecza's Makefile expects there to be something called gmcs on my computer. what is it, and where can I find it? I don't see it in the list of dependencies.
20:51 dalek specs: 7e20743 | larry++ | S05-regex.pod:
20:51 dalek specs: allow LTMish characters in character classes
20:51 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/7e20743291
20:51 moritz_ masak: sudo aptitude install mono-gmcs
20:52 masak just arrived at the same thing :)
20:52 moritz_ fwiw, regarding .reals methods
20:52 moritz_ the idea is that many mathematical constructs can be translated to a number of reals
20:52 moritz_ for example Complex, vectors, matrices etc.
20:52 moritz_ so the presence of .reals allows lexicographic ordering of those
20:53 masak yes, I see the rationale. I just don't like the name, and the rationale doesn't help for me.
20:53 masak ok, now niecza builds.
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20:55 moritz_ masak: my point is that even if we should have a .reim method, .reals should still exists
20:56 moritz_ so I kinda disagree with RT #83720
20:56 masak right. and preferably be called something else.
20:56 PerlJam moritz_: should there be a .rats too?
20:56 PerlJam moritz_: what about an .ints ?
20:56 moritz_ PerlJam: Int ~~ Real  and Rat ~~ Real, so "no"
20:57 moritz_ masak: why should it be called something else?
20:57 masak moritz_: also, I don't necessarily see the generality you do here. what about vectors/matrices with complex numbers.
20:57 masak s/\.$/?/
20:57 PerlJam moritz_: why whould it be named according to its representation?
20:57 moritz_ masak: all of those have useful(-ish) represenations as lists of real numbers
20:57 masak er.
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20:57 masak calling it .reals seems like tying it down unnecessarily.
20:58 masak and I don't imagine I'm saying that just being difficult or abstraction-astronautic.
20:58 moritz_ PerlJam: because the structure of the return value is the reason for having the method
20:58 moritz_ masak: what would you call it?
20:58 arnsholt Abstraction-astronautic?
20:59 masak arnsholt: caring about abstractions for their own sake
20:59 PerlJam moritz_: that seems to answer more to the reason it's a plural than why it's got "real" in the name
20:59 masak moritz_: ok, first off: here's why .reals is really bad.
20:59 arnsholt Oh, of course =)
20:59 masak moritz_: there's an *attribute* on Complex called .re, short for "real"
20:59 masak moritz_: having a method called .reals encroaches on that mental space, and confuses things by being plural.
21:00 [Coke] I thought .reals was a nod to "not ints"
21:00 [Coke] which doesn't make it any better.
21:00 masak moritz_: it's as if an Employee class with a $.boss attribute unexpectedly had a method .bosses
21:00 [Coke] something like ".flatten" seems a better choice.
21:00 PerlJam [Coke]: or perhaps  .components
21:00 PerlJam or .comps
21:00 PerlJam or .list
21:00 PerlJam or .flat
21:01 PerlJam etc.
21:01 plobsing joined #perl6
21:01 PerlJam (though I'm not enamoured of anything with "flat" in its name right now)
21:01 masak I don't see why Complex should make being viewed as a pair of numbers particularly easy. the real use of Complex is having it as one unit.
21:02 moritz_ because you want them .sort-able?
21:03 kaare_ left #perl6
21:03 PerlJam moritz_: I don't see it.  Am I being myopic.
21:03 PerlJam ?
21:03 masak they can be .sort-able without sharing their components like that.
21:03 [Coke] If you want to sort it, seems like you'd define a sort on the attributes.
21:04 masak we've talked about sorting Complex numbers before on the channel. there's just no standard way to do it.
21:04 y3llow_ joined #perl6
21:04 masak comparing them, really.
21:04 pothos_ joined #perl6
21:05 dalek book: 4e2ec42 | masak++ | src/images/title.svg:
21:05 dalek book: put the dots in my name on the right 'a'
21:05 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/4e2ec42af3
21:05 TimToady .values, perhaps
21:05 PerlJam 1+50i is clearly bigger than 50+i because it's got more imagination  :)
21:05 masak TimToady: that's the first one I don't hate.
21:05 PerlJam TimToady: what masak said
21:06 PerlJam (apparently he and I are on the exact same wavelength wrt this subject)
21:06 masak moritz_: above commit fixes title.svg -- what needs to be done to generate title.pdf?
21:06 masak note that .values would work for vectors and matrices as well, if one were so inclined.
21:06 pothos left #perl6
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21:06 pothos_ is now known as pothos
21:07 y3llow_ is now known as y3llow
21:07 TimToady there's always .explode :)
21:07 PerlJam Though it will eventually lead to something like @complex.values>>.values at some point.
21:08 masak TimToady: .explode sounds more like a command than a query to me :P
21:08 PerlJam It's almost likea Capture.  "give me a listy view of your components"
21:09 justatheory joined #perl6
21:12 TimToady well, if there's a list-based constructor for these, then obviously the deconstructor should be called .old :)
21:12 PerlJam heh
21:13 dalek book: 1ba76c9 | masak++ | src/operators.pod:
21:13 dalek book: [operators] lifted variable out of loop
21:13 dalek book:
21:13 dalek book: It doesn't change with each iteration, so it might as well be defined
21:13 dalek book: outside of the loop.
21:13 dalek book:
21:13 dalek book: Commit courtesy of Håkan Kjellerstrand.
21:13 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/1ba76c9bf8
21:13 PerlJam that might work in the same way that "leg" works.
21:14 * moritz_ back from baby duty... .values breaks the assumption that an item behaves like a single-item list and vice versa
21:14 PerlJam I mean from the user's perspective
21:14 moritz_ masak: you need to manually generate title.pdf, iirc
21:14 moritz_ masak: feel free to improve the makefile
21:16 masak just wanting to know how to generate it. not wanting to solve the general problem right now.
21:16 moritz_ masak: with, like, inkscape or so
21:17 moritz_ see Makefile for inspiration about which options to use
21:17 moritz_ there's already one svg -> pdf conversion in the build process
21:17 PerlJam Why should .reals be so huffmanized too?
21:19 masak subs-n-sigs.pod talks about "The first chapter" and "the second chapter", but these are currently chapters 2 and 3, respectively. is it a mistake that "Preface" is chapter 1, or should the chapter references be adjusted?
21:20 masak moritz_: there's no mention of inkscape in the Makefile.
21:21 masak hold on, there's a lib/Makefile...
21:21 PerlJam masak: perhaps those should be references to the appropriate chapter so that even if we move them around it'll still be the right thing.
21:22 masak yes, they should be LaTeX refs.
21:22 masak \label and \ref seems to be enough for that.
21:23 * masak fixes
21:23 pmurias joined #perl6
21:25 masak moritz_: I can generate a .pdf with inkscape from the command line, but the font sizes are all wrong. possibly the typefaces as well.
21:25 moritz_ masak: I'll take a look
21:25 masak thank you.
21:26 masak inkscape --without-gui --export-pdf=src/images/title.pdf src/images/title.svg
21:26 masak that worked for me.
21:27 masak oh wait. can't add LaTeX cross-references, because the source code isn't LaTeX, it's PseudoPod...
21:27 masak clearly, I've been away from the book for too long :)
21:27 masak ok, making the simple change for now.
21:29 dalek book: 2c54a9e | masak++ | src/subs-n-sigs.pod:
21:29 dalek book: [subs-n-sigs] fixed chapter numbers
21:29 dalek book:
21:29 dalek book: This is only a short-term fix; we'd really like real references here,
21:29 dalek book: like in LaTeX.
21:29 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/2c54a9e8cd
21:31 masak heh. speaking of which,
21:31 masak subs-n-sigs.pod:451 uses L<pair_forms>
21:31 masak but it comes out as 'pair_forms' in the PDF.
21:32 masak and that line was last touched in July (by chromatic).
21:32 masak does that mean Pseudopod has a way to work with LaTeX references, but it doesn't work?
21:33 moritz_ masak: much of the markup that chromatic touched didn't work
21:33 masak ok.
21:33 moritz_ and has been fixed by pronik++ or me
21:33 masak so what should I/we do about it?
21:33 moritz_ (int he latex emitter, mostly)
21:33 masak moritz_++ pronik++
21:33 moritz_ masak: find out how it's supposed to work, and make it work
21:34 am0c joined #perl6
21:34 masak ok. that sounds like a small project, and I want to get through this list
21:34 masak I'll try not to drop it, though.
21:34 masak I want to get back to editing the book.
21:34 PerlJam IIRC chromatic has his own Pod::PseudoPod syntax that he used for Modern Perl.  Perhaps he thinks in terms of that and perhaps we can borrow whatever he used.
21:34 moritz_ masak++
21:36 moritz_ I think Z<chapter_anchor> is one part
21:36 moritz_ and then L<chapter_anchor>
21:37 moritz_ Z<pair_forms> bekomes \label{pair_forms}, which looks correct to me
21:38 masak the L<> should then become \ref
21:38 moritz_ what does \ref expand to? chapter number?
21:38 gfldex std: grammar Foo { my $just_a_var = 0; &die.wrap({callsame}); }; Foo.parse('abc');
21:38 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 126m␤»
21:38 gfldex rakudo: grammar Foo { my $just_a_var = 0; &die.wrap({callsame}); }; Foo.parse('abc');
21:38 p6eval rakudo 03380c: OUTPUT«Method 'wrap' not found for invocant of class 'Sub'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/Cd3g2p1Wvq␤»
21:39 masak moritz_: something like "Chapter $n"
21:39 gfldex should rakudo be able to wrap a buildin within a grammar?
21:39 PerlJam "Chapter $n: <title of chapter>" would be better
21:40 masak gfldex: the change wouldn't be lexical just because you do it inside a grammar.
21:40 gfldex i don't want it to be lexical
21:40 masak PerlJam: I don't know the extent to which LaTeX can be changed there.
21:40 masak PerlJam: wouldn't be surprised if it were configurable.
21:40 moritz_ I'm pretty sure it is
21:41 moritz_ first make it run, then make it pretty :-)
21:41 PerlJam aye
21:41 masak gfldex: anyway, it's probably that &die is a Parrot thingie that bites you.
21:42 gfldex i don't feel very save with wrapping die either :)
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21:54 masak rakudo: sub foo { say "42" }; &foo.wrap({ say "Ladies and gentlemen, the answer to the question about Life, the Universe, and Everything:"; callsame }); foo
21:54 p6eval rakudo 03380c: OUTPUT«Ladies and gentlemen, the answer to the question about Life, the Universe, and Everything:␤42␤»
21:55 masak rakudo: &die.wrap({ say "Ladies and gentlemen, the answer to the question about Life, the Universe, and Everything:"; callsame }); die "oops"
21:55 p6eval rakudo 03380c: OUTPUT«Method 'wrap' not found for invocant of class 'Sub'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/K6Toy8bosi␤»
21:55 masak yep, it must be that &die is "special" somehow.
21:55 masak ELOOPNOTSTRANGEENOUGHYET
21:56 plobsing left #perl6
21:58 moritz_ die() is defined at PIR level
21:58 masak right.
21:58 masak rakudo: sub foo {}; say &foo.WHAT
21:58 p6eval rakudo 03380c: OUTPUT«Sub()␤»
21:58 masak rakudo: say &die.WHAT
21:58 p6eval rakudo 03380c: OUTPUT«Code()␤»
21:58 masak ah.
21:59 masak it's almost more confusing that the error is that .wrap isn't found in Sub, when .wrap is normally called on Sub objects.
22:01 Tene masak: That error is generated by introspecting the type of the die function, whose type happens to be named "Sub"
22:01 Tene This is different from Perl 6's Sub class.
22:01 Tene it's a parrot sub
22:01 Tene oslt
22:03 masak yes. I know.
22:04 masak sometimes we're lucky enough that the name of the Parrot type differs... then the errors are less confusing :)
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22:39 dalek std: 2b1d764 | larry++ | STD.pm6:
22:39 dalek std: parse new boundary and character class syntax
22:39 dalek std: review: https://github.com/perl6/std/commit/2b1d764a47
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23:00 masak rakudo: multi f([]) {}; multi f(@a is copy) { say @a.pop; f @a }; f [<rocks! recursion>]
23:00 p6eval rakudo 03380c: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'f'. Available candidates are:␤:(Positional  ())␤:(@a)␤␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/IvdSKUo9hJ␤»
23:01 masak aww :(
23:02 arnsholt You get to submit a rakudobug, though, don't you? =)
23:02 masak not until I'm convinced it's an error.
23:02 arnsholt Considered a best practice, aibleev
23:05 arnsholt Oh, and regarding your discussion on LaTeX previously, remember that \ref can point to lots of stuff, not only chapters
23:05 arnsholt But things like sections, tables and figures
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23:18 dalek std: 8246478 | larry++ | STD.pm6:
23:18 dalek std: forgot to add quoted chars to char classes
23:18 dalek std: review: https://github.com/perl6/std/commit/8246478e0c
23:20 masak arnsholt: right, but as I recall, LaTeX mostly DTRT in turning the \ref into a description of whatever the \label is attached to.
23:22 arnsholt Not by default. The default is just to output the correct numbers. So if the label is for table 2.3 it'll just output 2.3
23:23 arnsholt I think there are packages that provide that kind of functionality though
23:23 masak oh, ok.
23:23 masak well, that makes sense, I guess.
23:23 masak the default being minimal and locale-independent, I mean.
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23:24 arnsholt I think the main problem is that you use \label for everything
23:25 arnsholt Or maybe not, now that I think more...
23:25 masak it has to distinguish types, or the numbering wouldn't work. :)
23:25 arnsholt Yeah, there's always that =)
23:26 s1n joined #perl6
23:26 arnsholt I think my TeXnical expertise is simply too limited to say why it doesn't work like that
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23:57 masak 'night, #perl6
23:58 eternaleye left #perl6
23:58 sbp 'night masak
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