Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-02-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 protorom joined #perl6
00:04 protorom left #perl6
00:05 ddima left #perl6
00:06 Trashlord joined #perl6
00:06 ddima joined #perl6
00:08 varna left #perl6
00:09 varna joined #perl6
00:22 shi left #perl6
00:25 stifynsemons left #perl6
00:26 justatheory joined #perl6
00:36 nadim__ left #perl6
00:44 bacek left #perl6
00:56 protorom_ joined #perl6
00:56 protorom_ left #perl6
01:07 dalek niecza: ba728f8 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
01:07 dalek niecza: Combine ehspan and span into a single neater primitive
01:07 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/ba728f85b5
01:07 dalek niecza: 40c432a | sorear++ | / (3 files):
01:07 dalek niecza: &return and &take take multiple arguments
01:07 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/40c432ab0a
01:07 dalek niecza: 1e98895 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
01:07 dalek niecza: &return et al are inlinable primitives
01:07 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/1e98895169
01:07 qiyong joined #perl6
01:18 Chillance left #perl6
01:38 cosimo joined #perl6
01:40 Vlavv_ left #perl6
01:42 Vlavv joined #perl6
01:43 Eevee left #perl6
01:48 Eevee joined #perl6
01:50 obra left #perl6
01:56 [Coke] if you have something that segfaults with an optimized parrot and not without, please open a trac ticket so we can fixit.
01:57 charsbr__ left #perl6
01:58 charsbr__ joined #perl6
02:01 noganex_ joined #perl6
02:04 noganex left #perl6
02:18 lakshman left #perl6
02:20 colomon phenny: tell masak I apologize profusely for the inscrutability of my second p4 submission.  Basically I spent all my time (definitely more than I could really afford to spend on the contest) trying to get it to work better, and no time at all trying to polish it.  I do believe it will play "perfectly" for games up to 50 or 60 stones, after which point it will play pretty well against a normal human, but get toasted by a perfect versio
02:20 colomon the algorithm.
02:20 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
02:37 whiteknight left #perl6
02:54 stifynsemons joined #perl6
03:02 lateau joined #perl6
03:05 agentzh joined #perl6
03:15 Trashlord left #perl6
03:17 fake joined #perl6
03:18 fake is now known as Guest39810
03:21 Guest39810 left #perl6
03:22 stifynsemons left #perl6
03:29 diakopter colomon: I saw "...but get toasted by a perfect versio"
03:32 arnsholt Yeah, me too
03:32 arnsholt Looks like your client and the server have different opinions fo the maximum line length =)
03:45 [particle]1 joined #perl6
03:48 [particle] left #perl6
03:50 dalek niecza: dc84a47 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
03:50 dalek niecza: Optimize intrablock control ops to goto
03:50 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/dc84a47f09
03:50 Bzek_ joined #perl6
03:52 sorear I need to come up with some more priority items for the feb 28 release :)
03:53 Bzek left #perl6
03:55 satyavvd joined #perl6
03:57 kanishka joined #perl6
04:21 stifynsemons joined #perl6
04:27 Su-Shee left #perl6
04:28 Su-Shee joined #perl6
04:30 rdesfo joined #perl6
04:31 rdesfo has something changed in perl6 since "Perl 6 now" came out.  the book says the output for print 037 should be 0c37 in perl6 and it is 37.
04:49 sorear I've never heard of "Perl 6 now"
04:49 sorear the language is still in heavy development
04:50 sorear std: say 037
04:50 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Leading 0 does not indicate octal in Perl 6; please use 0o37 if you mean that at /tmp/N44qRzl3JL line 1:␤------> [32msay 037[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤ok 00:01 118m␤»
04:52 rdesfo thanks
04:53 rdesfo The book also says it would print out 31 when "print 0c037" is executed
04:53 sorear rakudo: print 0c037
04:53 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "print 0c03"␤»
04:54 sorear I imagine that's just a printing problem and it should say 0o037
04:54 sorear ... implausible but I can't think of a better explanation
04:54 sorear anyone else know?
04:57 Sargun joined #perl6
04:58 Sargun What's the status on Perl6/parrot
05:10 sorear Status?  It's the most complete implementation!
05:11 sorear oh, hmm, I guess you meant "Perl 6 and Parrot"
05:11 sorear I thought "Perl 6 implemented on Parrot" at first...
05:11 sorear Perl 6 is fine.  Can't speak for Parrot personally.
05:12 rdesfo http://rakudo.org/announce/rakudo-star/2011.01
05:12 rdesfo here is the lastes news.  another update was just released for rakudo star
05:17 * sorear wonders why there have been some many new comers the past 1-2 days
05:23 cognominal left #perl6
05:25 molaf joined #perl6
05:28 rdesfo left #perl6
05:30 lakshman joined #perl6
05:36 molaf left #perl6
05:39 justatheory left #perl6
05:41 justatheory joined #perl6
05:45 ddima left #perl6
05:45 ddima joined #perl6
05:47 stifynsemons left #perl6
05:55 envi joined #perl6
05:56 sorear Sargun: any specific questions?
05:57 Sargun sorear, why hasn't Perl6 succeeded perl5?
05:57 Sargun sorear, people making fun of Perl and Parrot on Reddit H-N
05:58 sorear you need a thick skin to be a p6er
05:59 sorear it hasn't succeededed perl5 because perl5 was revived
05:59 sorear perl6 was started at a point in time when perl5 looked dead
05:59 sorear this was around 5.6
05:59 sorear now, we have two active branches of Perl
06:00 sorear you might think of them as forks, but they aren't, really, they're much closer than that
06:00 sorear a lot of ideas have started in one and spread to the other
06:01 Sargun So, how do you kill a perl? stake to the heart, silver bullet?
06:01 Sargun sorear, Like Py 3x and 2x
06:14 mberends left #perl6
06:15 arlinius left #perl6
06:16 arlinius joined #perl6
06:18 cjk101010 joined #perl6
06:20 sftp left #perl6
06:21 Trashlord joined #perl6
06:27 mberends joined #perl6
06:34 drbean left #perl6
06:37 kaare_ joined #perl6
06:42 kaare_ left #perl6
06:43 mberends left #perl6
06:44 nadim__ joined #perl6
06:47 kaare_ joined #perl6
06:48 dual left #perl6
06:59 wtw joined #perl6
07:01 Alias joined #perl6
07:08 noganex_ is now known as noganex
07:19 kchevy joined #perl6
07:19 kchevy hey ppls
07:20 kchevy left #perl6
07:27 * sorear -> sleep
07:31 clkao left #perl6
07:45 lakshman left #perl6
07:56 shi joined #perl6
07:57 risou joined #perl6
08:08 perimosocordiae joined #perl6
08:08 ymasory left #perl6
08:10 ymasory joined #perl6
08:17 aesop left #perl6
08:20 daxim joined #perl6
08:20 justatheory left #perl6
08:34 cotto left #perl6
08:39 perimosocordiae left #perl6
08:42 Vlavv left #perl6
08:45 araujo left #perl6
08:46 nymacro joined #perl6
08:47 araujo joined #perl6
08:48 aesop joined #perl6
08:54 risou left #perl6
08:56 Vlavv joined #perl6
08:56 bubo joined #perl6
09:02 dip joined #perl6
09:02 dip is now known as Guest58675
09:07 coldhead left #perl6
09:11 ankitsingh joined #perl6
09:12 coldhead joined #perl6
09:13 risou joined #perl6
09:13 cibs left #perl6
09:14 kanishka left #perl6
09:23 tty234 left #perl6
09:23 Mowah joined #perl6
09:24 tty234 joined #perl6
09:24 lolo_91 joined #perl6
09:26 dakkar joined #perl6
09:29 kanishka joined #perl6
09:29 lolo_91 Howdy world! o/
09:29 Mowah left #perl6
09:30 Sargun left #perl6
09:30 moritz_ \o
09:30 mberends joined #perl6
09:30 jnthn o/, moritz_
09:31 tzhs joined #perl6
09:32 * moritz_ had a very tasty mango for breakfast
09:32 moritz_ well, actually half of it. $wife got the other half :-)
09:32 Sargun joined #perl6
09:32 Mowah joined #perl6
09:33 jnthn moritz_: Healthy! I just eated a chokladbullar... :)
09:34 mberends :-) IRC at $work...
09:34 Guest58675 left #perl6
09:34 moritz_ looks tasty too :-)
09:34 moritz_ good morning mberends
09:35 mberends hi moritz_, I hope you're getting a bit of regular sleep
09:35 jnthn mberen! ! \o/
09:35 moritz_ mberends: if by "regular" you mean "a few times a few hours in a row each night", then yes, I do :-)
09:35 jdhore moritz_, mind a quick, slightly off-topic PM?
09:36 jnthn er, where'd the ds go.... :)
09:36 moritz_ jdhore: go right ahead
09:36 lolo_91 left #perl6
09:36 mberends jnthn: huffman eated them
09:37 jnthn Guess he's gotta have breakfast too :)
09:40 jnthn Aww.
09:40 * jnthn glances the backscroll and realizes he missed saying hi to lolo
09:48 moritz_ http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=887946 # curious question (not Perl 6 though)
09:53 risou_ joined #perl6
09:53 risou left #perl6
10:05 clkao joined #perl6
10:05 dalek nqp-cl-parser: 09a6725 | moritz++ | / (2 files):
10:05 dalek nqp-cl-parser: the code now lives in the perl6/nqp repo
10:05 dalek nqp-cl-parser: review: https://github.com/moritz/nqp​-cl-parser/commit/09a67254bf
10:06 dalek mu: bb031ec | moritz++ | misc/dalek-conf.json:
10:06 dalek mu: stop tp track nqp-cl-parser, it is now incorporated in nqp
10:06 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/bb031ec4e8
10:13 jnthn moritz_: If you're in that file, any chance you can add the nom branch of Rakudo to the tracking?
10:13 jnthn If you have a moment free to do it, anyway... :)
10:13 * jnthn keeps forgetting to and is at $dayjob atm.
10:13 moritz_ jnthn: sure, cando
10:14 dalek mu: 169a365 | moritz++ | misc/dalek-conf.json:
10:14 dalek mu: nom nom. Track rakudo's nom branch.
10:14 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/169a365a48
10:15 * jdhore took off his $dayjob today to spend V-day with the wife :D
10:16 dalek nqp: 5c5b494 | moritz++ | src/HLL/Compiler.pm:
10:16 dalek nqp: rewrite parts of command_line in nqp
10:16 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/5c5b4942ca
10:16 dalek nqp: 2255560 | bacek++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
10:16 dalek nqp: Fix write barrier in updating method_cache
10:16 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/22555607c5
10:16 dalek nqp: f6b7f76 | moritz++ | t/p6regex/01-regex.t:
10:16 dalek nqp: make p6regex tests runnable again
10:16 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/f6b7f76f7c
10:17 dalek mu: 10de494 | moritz++ | misc/dalek-conf.json:
10:17 dalek mu: [dalek] nqp is now pushed, so remove from the config
10:17 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/10de4941f7
10:17 jnthn moritz_: Thanks!
10:17 moritz_ sorry for the dupe report, that was the "Test Hook" button on github
10:20 kanishka left #perl6
10:21 kanishka joined #perl6
10:25 bubo part
10:25 bubo left #perl6
10:26 moritz_ this part doesn't seem to have worked :-)
10:41 qiyong with perl6 do i have to use my vars ? like use strict implied?
10:43 moritz_ yes
10:43 moritz_ except in -e oneliners, where it's off by default (but I don't think any compiler implements "no strict" mode yet)
10:44 moritz_ rakudo: $x
10:44 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$x' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/VjIrbH8XcQ:22)␤»
10:46 Tedd1 joined #perl6
10:47 qiyong left #perl6
10:51 qiyong joined #perl6
10:52 risou_ left #perl6
10:54 masak joined #perl6
10:54 masak good almost-noon, #perl6
10:54 phenny masak: 02:20Z <colomon> tell masak I apologize profusely for the inscrutability of my second p4 submission.  Basically I spent all my time (definitely more than I could really afford to spend on the contest) trying to get it to work better, and no time at all trying to polish it.  I do believe it will play "perfectly" for games up to 50 or 60 stones, after which point it will play pretty well against a normal human, but get toasted by a perfect versio
10:54 masak no need to apologize, colomon :)
10:55 masak there's a nice spread to the solutions, and none of them are perfect.
10:55 masak the solution colomon-2 just happens to have a most interesting mix of perfections and imperfections :P
10:56 jnthn lawltismasak
11:00 moritz_ straw poll: assume a programming language that has two functions, Sum and Total. Would you know what they did, or at least how they differed?
11:00 moritz_ background: they both appear in a popular computer algebra system
11:01 jnthn Well, to sum some things is to add them up. To total some things is to destroy them ("I totalled my car!"). ;)
11:01 moritz_ :-)
11:01 coldhead left #perl6
11:01 jnthn But no, if I saw both I'd have to go read the docs. :)
11:02 jnthn (That is, the difference wouldn't be obvious to me from the names.)
11:02 moritz_ thanks
11:03 bacek joined #perl6
11:04 masak moritz_: no, I don't think I can guess how they differ.
11:05 moritz_ turns out that in Mathematica, Total is like [+] in Perl 6
11:05 moritz_ whereas Sum has a built-in iterator
11:05 risou joined #perl6
11:06 moritz_ so Sum is more like  [+] @array[0, 1 ... *] or so
11:06 moritz_ confused the hell out of me at first
11:11 masak feels a bit silly to have both Sum and Total, no matter what the difference is... :)
11:12 moritz_ well, Sum can also calculate closed forms of algebraic sums
11:12 moritz_ Sum[1/x^2, {x, 1, Infinity}]
11:12 moritz_ -> pi^2/6
11:13 moritz_ so there's a need for it... it's just the naming that's silly
11:13 masak *nod*
11:14 moritz_ rakudo: say  ([+] (1..*).map(1 / * ** 2).[^10]) - pi * pi / 6
11:14 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«-0.0951663356816856␤»
11:14 moritz_ rakudo: say  ([+] (1..*).map(1 / * ** 2).[^20]) - pi * pi / 6
11:14 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«-0.0487708229352031␤»
11:14 moritz_ rakudo: say  ([+] (1..*).map(1 / * ** 2).[^50]) - pi * pi / 6
11:14 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«-0.0198013332266973␤»
11:15 moritz_ rakudo: say  ([+] (1..*).map(1 / * ** 2).[^500]) - pi * pi / 6
11:15 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«-0.0019980013333325␤»
11:15 moritz_ identity experimentally verified :-)
11:15 moritz_ rakudo: say  ([+] (1..*).map(1 / * ** 2).[^5000]) - pi * pi / 6
11:15 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«(timeout)»
11:15 moritz_ rakudo: say  ([+] (1..*).map(1 / * ** 2).[^1000]) - pi * pi / 6
11:15 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«-0.000999500166664946␤»
11:16 moritz_ rakudo: say  ([+] (1..1000).map(1 / * ** 2)) - pi * pi / 6
11:16 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«-0.000999500166664946␤»
11:17 moritz_ niecza: say  ([+] (1..1000).map(1 / * ** 2)) - pi * pi / 6
11:17 p6eval niecza v2-57-gdc84a47: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
11:18 moritz_ niecza: say  ([+] (1..100).map(1 / * ** 2)) - pi * pi / 6
11:18 p6eval niecza v2-57-gdc84a47: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Confused at /tmp/42itN1kEAc line 1:␤------> [32m  ([+] (1..100).map(1 / * ** 2)) - pi * [33m⏏[31mpi / 6[0m␤␤Undeclared routine:␤      'pi' used at line Any()1␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
11:18 agentzh left #perl6
11:18 moritz_ niecza: say  ([+] (1..100).map(1 / * ** 2)) - 3.1415926**2 / 6
11:18 p6eval niecza v2-57-gdc84a47: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Action method dec_number not yet implemented at /tmp/zV9uyXOoI7 line 1:␤------> [32m+] (1..100).map(1 / * ** 2)) - 3.1415926[33m⏏[31m**2 / 6[0m␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/SAFE.setting line
11:18 p6eval ..377 (SAFE die …
11:19 moritz_ niecza: say  ([+] (1..100).map(1 / * ** 2)) - 3.1415926e0**2 / 6
11:19 p6eval niecza v2-57-gdc84a47: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Action method escale not yet implemented at /tmp/9_qaTrkYId line 1:␤------> [32m (1..100).map(1 / * ** 2)) - 3.1415926e0[33m⏏[31m**2 / 6[0m␤␤Action method dec_number not yet implemented at /tmp/9_qaTrkYId line 1:␤------> [32m
11:19 p6eval ..(1..100).map(1 / * …
11:19 moritz_ eek.
11:19 moritz_ no wonder there's no pi term :-)
11:24 awoodland joined #perl6
11:31 * masak found a bug in &slurp
11:31 masak it duplicates empty lines.
11:31 moritz_ huh.
11:31 masak no, wait.
11:31 masak it's .lines
11:32 masak good, then it's testable here.
11:32 masak rakudo: .say for "A\n\nB".lines
11:32 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«A␤␤␤B␤»
11:32 * masak submits rakudobug
11:34 mikehh left #perl6
11:41 satyavvd left #perl6
11:43 masak` joined #perl6
11:46 masak left #perl6
11:46 mikehh joined #perl6
11:48 masak` is now known as masak
11:55 risou left #perl6
12:00 risou joined #perl6
12:02 ankitsingh left #perl6
12:03 drbean joined #perl6
12:05 kanishka left #perl6
12:08 kanishka joined #perl6
12:41 tzhs left #perl6
12:42 tzhs joined #perl6
12:46 masak yes! colomon's second algorithm finally made a tiny mistake! :P
12:49 awoodland left #perl6
12:51 moritz_ :-)
12:52 moritz_ masak: did you take a perfectly playing solution, and let the two play against each other?
12:52 masak no, that would have been an even better idea.
12:52 masak I just had colomon-2 play against itself until it did something unexpected.
12:53 takadonet joined #perl6
12:53 takadonet morning all
12:54 masak takadonet: \o
12:54 risou_ joined #perl6
12:54 takadonet masak: how are u sir?
12:55 risou left #perl6
12:55 masak takadonet: sir, I have a bit of a sore throat, but I'm otherwise of a good mood and fine temperament.
12:55 masak takadonet: what about u sir?
12:56 stifynsemons joined #perl6
12:57 takadonet masak: busy as hell at work and got a good chuck of Text::Diff working
12:57 MayDaniel joined #perl6
12:57 obra joined #perl6
12:57 drbean left #perl6
12:58 masak it's funny, I never hear people say "they give me too little to do at work, I find myself having too much free time".
12:58 moritz_ rakudo: say "a\nb\n\nc".lines.perl
12:58 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«("a", "b", "", "", "c")␤»
12:58 stifynsemons left #perl6
12:59 masak odd, no?
12:59 moritz_ masak: but that's just because people won't want talk about having too little work, fearing they might get too much
12:59 moritz_ s/won/don/
12:59 takadonet I actually do hear that sometime just not in our group
13:00 moritz_ there were times where I had some side jobs where I had too little work, and was terribly bored
13:03 kaydsoft joined #perl6
13:11 mtk joined #perl6
13:12 shi left #perl6
13:12 ab5tract joined #perl6
13:13 plainhao joined #perl6
13:17 tzhs left #perl6
13:19 _jaldhar_ left #perl6
13:20 _jaldhar_ joined #perl6
13:26 orafu joined #perl6
13:27 shi joined #perl6
13:28 MayDaniel left #perl6
13:32 orafu left #perl6
13:44 REPLeffect left #perl6
13:44 REPLeffect joined #perl6
13:54 risou joined #perl6
13:55 risou_ left #perl6
14:05 sftp joined #perl6
14:08 awoodland joined #perl6
14:09 satyavvd joined #perl6
14:10 cognominal joined #perl6
14:10 colomon masak: how far did you have to go before colomon-2 made a mistake?
14:13 * colomon has no illusions colomon-2 is perfect -- far from it! -- but never systematically tested it to see where it loses its grip.
14:14 cognominal left #perl6
14:16 felliott left #perl6
14:17 masak colomon: 56 stones.
14:18 masak colomon: colomon-2 against itself with 56 stones => player 1 wins, but it's a guaranteed win for player 2 => player 2 made a mistake somewhere.
14:18 masak I'm happy I found *something*, because my blog post takes the angle that everyone failed in some sense. :)
14:18 cognominal joined #perl6
14:18 masak I'm not too bothered by having had to look hard for a crack, that only speaks to colomon-2's advantage.
14:20 cognominal left #perl6
14:20 colomon so my estimate that it played perfectly to somewhere between 50 and 60 was pretty accurate.  :)
14:20 masak yeah :)
14:20 masak I plan to delve a bit more into the workings of colomon-2, and then I'll publish the p4 post.
14:20 masak probably sometime late tonight.
14:24 plobsing left #perl6
14:29 Bzek_ left #perl6
14:31 Bzek joined #perl6
14:39 kaare_ left #perl6
14:45 [particle]1 is now known as [particle]
14:47 colomon masak: it just occurs to me that an interesting question about the 56 case is at what point my code knew it had a winning situation.
14:47 stifynsemons joined #perl6
14:51 masak it's more about player 2 bottoming out in a win before player 1 does, I think.
14:51 masak er, sorry. other way around.
14:52 colomon masak: but at some point along the line my code should have had a good enough grasp of things to know whether it had a sure thing or not.
14:53 PacoLinux joined #perl6
14:53 colomon It would be interesting to know at what point that happened.  (for me, anyway.)
14:53 colomon (interesting to me, I mean.)
14:53 cjk101010 left #perl6
14:54 risou_ joined #perl6
14:55 moritz_ colomon: arnsholt posted his perfectly playing solution in the backlog at some point. You can let it play against yours (and swap the players for each length too), and see where the non-optimal behavior starts
14:55 risou__ joined #perl6
14:55 masak colomon: what moritz_ said. also feel free to make use of my harness at http://www.flickr.com/photos/r-butler/4766152181/
14:55 masak er, mispaste :)
14:56 masak https://gist.github.com/824207
14:56 colomon Actually, my code has a built-in mode for playing against itself.  :)
14:56 daxim always you with your fruit pr0nz.
14:56 masak daxim: dang, found out again!
14:56 masak daxim: (I'm building a presentation for $work. this one is for the red-green-refactor slide) :)
14:57 risou left #perl6
14:57 arnsholt As an aside, I'm very jealous of masak's slide-building skills
14:58 masak
14:58 stifynsemons left #perl6
14:59 masak that's a refreshing contrast from constantly having to live with my perfectionist side. :)
14:59 risou_ left #perl6
15:00 satyavvd left #perl6
15:00 arnsholt I was very impressed with the slides you had for your Copenhagen presentation (Prince of Parsea, IIRC). They complemented the talk very well
15:03 masak thanks. that's from the minimalist (Takahashi?) framework I built. it's called Failure: https://github.com/masak/failure
15:04 kanishka left #perl6
15:04 masak I also have another, newer framework which I've used once and got good feedback on. I call it "Infinite Canvas", and it can be seen in https://github.com/masak/osdc-fr-20​10-hardcore-bug-reporting/downloads
15:05 jnthn <- just uses Powerpoint O.O
15:05 masak (my primary weakness is that I write my own frameworks) :)
15:05 cotto joined #perl6
15:06 moritz_ masak: your primary weakness is that existing frameworks just don't work good enough for you :-)
15:06 masak I *hope* that's the reason. :)
15:08 masak but yes. I have a bit of an aversion to the normal way of doing presentations, and I like the control that a home-grown framework gives me.
15:08 * colomon has never made a slide presentation...
15:08 masak some of the best presenters I know do very simple slides, and have each of them up for a second or two. I like that.
15:10 moritz_ that style is nearly never found in the scientific community
15:10 daxim "I have no powerpoint."
15:10 moritz_ "I have power, but not point"
15:11 tzhs joined #perl6
15:12 daxim http://presentationzen.blogs.com​/photos/uncategorized/ppt_4.jpg
15:13 * jnthn did give up on bullet points a while ago and doesn't miss them at all :)
15:13 * masak likes http://norvig.com/Gettysburg/
15:13 jnthn Only used the Takahashi style for lightning talks really though.
15:14 arnsholt daxim: What do the kana say?
15:14 daxim see above.
15:14 arnsholt Ah, right =)
15:15 daxim I first encountered takahashi method in bochum at german perl workshop 2006, presented by audreyt
15:16 daxim that was quite an eye-opener
15:16 masak yes, I also discovered it via au++
15:16 masak also in 2006 :)
15:19 moritz_ perl6: say 1/2
15:19 kaare_ joined #perl6
15:19 p6eval pugs, rakudo , niecza v2-57-gdc84a47: OUTPUT«0.5␤»
15:19 moritz_ niecza: say 0.5
15:19 p6eval niecza v2-57-gdc84a47: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Action method dec_number not yet implemented at /tmp/sZsqDdZgMO line 1 (EOF):␤------> [32msay 0.5[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/SAFE.setting line 377 (SAFE die @ 2)␤  at
15:19 p6eval ../home/p6eval/niecza…
15:20 pyrimidine joined #perl6
15:22 nymacro left #perl6
15:23 masak pyrimidine: greetz. there has been general interest in bioperl6 lately.
15:24 daxim openbio hackathon in vienna thus july.
15:24 MayDaniel joined #perl6
15:26 takadonet masak: u talking about ryan__ ?
15:27 pyrimidine masak: good to hear!  If anyone wants to be added to the repo let me know.   takadonet can also add (I think)
15:27 am0c joined #perl6
15:27 SkaRiko joined #perl6
15:27 SkaRiko 9,9_0,0_4,4_1,1.0,12 Un saluto a tutti i presenti da SkaRiko 1,1..9�0�4�9C0I4AO9�0�4�
15:27 SkaRiko sera
15:27 takadonet pyrimidine: i do not think so
15:28 kanishka joined #perl6
15:30 kanishka left #perl6
15:30 masak left #perl6
15:32 masak joined #perl6
15:33 pyrimidine takadonet: looks like we would have to move it into an organization to add you as an admin
15:33 takadonet pyrimidine: no hurry
15:36 plobsing joined #perl6
15:37 pyrimidine might be interesting to see how well rakudo deals with very large data like SNPs, next-gen data, etc.  Speed is the major bottleneck there unfortunately
15:38 pyrimidine but one could possibly use zavolaj to interface to various tools (samtools) for those purposes
15:38 moritz_ I guess once 6model lands, packed arrays will help to reduce the memory footprint a lot
15:39 masak left #perl6
15:39 pyrimidine moritz_: timeline is supposed to be by next R*, correct?
15:39 mberends left #perl6
15:40 moritz_ pyrimidine: April, yes. +- a month or so :-)
15:40 [particle]1 joined #perl6
15:40 SkaRiko left #perl6
15:40 sorear good * #perl6
15:41 pyrimidine definitely worth looking into.  Very likely can't go to BOSC this year at ISMB (Vienna would have been nice)
15:41 moritz_ oh hai sorear
15:41 pyrimidine sorear: o/
15:41 [particle] left #perl6
15:43 jimbob joined #perl6
15:43 kjeldahl joined #perl6
15:46 masak joined #perl6
15:48 wtw left #perl6
15:50 jnthn Note that packed arrays probably won't be in the initial chunk of nom work, but they can follow on very closely behind it.
15:50 * jnthn will try and keep the branch scope as small as he sanely can
15:50 masak left #perl6
15:51 masak joined #perl6
15:51 masak left #perl6
15:56 awoodland left #perl6
15:56 awoodland joined #perl6
15:58 pigdude joined #perl6
15:59 jnthn decommute &
15:59 stifynsemons joined #perl6
16:01 stifynsemons left #perl6
16:01 qiyong left #perl6
16:02 plobsing left #perl6
16:03 cibs joined #perl6
16:04 justatheory joined #perl6
16:14 plobsing joined #perl6
16:15 Patterner left #perl6
16:17 Psyche^ joined #perl6
16:17 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
16:19 tzhs left #perl6
16:23 alester joined #perl6
16:23 cjk101010 joined #perl6
16:24 moritz_ http://python3wos.appspot.com/
16:26 gdey joined #perl6
16:28 kaydsoft_ joined #perl6
16:28 kaydsoft left #perl6
16:31 cogno joined #perl6
16:32 dalek roast: 140dea8 | moritz++ | S32-str/lines.t:
16:32 dalek roast: first Str.lines tests
16:32 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/140dea874b
16:32 felliott joined #perl6
16:32 kaydsoft_ left #perl6
16:34 moritz_ rakudo: say "a\n\nb".comb(rx/ ^^ \N*)>>.Str.perl
16:34 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
16:34 moritz_ rakudo: say "a\n\nb".comb(rx/ ^^ \N*/)>>.Str.perl
16:34 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«("a", "", "", "b")␤»
16:34 daxim left #perl6
16:34 kaydsoft joined #perl6
16:35 moritz_ rakudo: say "a\n\nb".comb(rx/ ^^ \N*/)>>.from.perl
16:35 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Method 'from' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/2Jse3RL_ZV␤»
16:35 moritz_ rakudo: say "a\n\nb".comb(rx/ ^^ \N*/, :match)>>.from.perl
16:35 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«(0, 2, 2, 3)␤»
16:36 moritz_ I guess that's that a bug, right?
16:36 moritz_ if so, it's the bug behind the .lines() bug
16:36 Trashlord left #perl6
16:37 moritz_ rakudo: say "a\n\nb".comb(rx/ ^^ \N*/, :match)>>.to.perl
16:37 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«(1, 2, 2, 4)␤»
16:37 dip joined #perl6
16:37 dip left #perl6
16:37 dip joined #perl6
16:37 dip is now known as Guest57743
16:41 kaydsoft left #perl6
16:42 moritz_ I think I have a fix. And I'm pretty sure I wrote the original, buggy code
16:45 moritz_ spectesting now...
16:46 jferrero joined #perl6
17:04 shi left #perl6
17:05 Trashlord joined #perl6
17:08 ab5tract left #perl6
17:08 kaydsoft joined #perl6
17:10 Sarten-X left #perl6
17:12 Tene http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2011/02/1​3/extending-syntax-from-within-a-language/ looks interesting; haven't read it yet.
17:16 molaf joined #perl6
17:20 ashleyde1 is now known as ashleydev
17:20 cogno left #perl6
17:21 Sarten-X joined #perl6
17:24 cogno joined #perl6
17:26 sorear niecza: .say for "a\n\nb".lines
17:26 p6eval niecza v2-57-gdc84a47: OUTPUT«a␤␤b␤»
17:28 MayDaniel left #perl6
17:29 awoodland left #perl6
17:35 cogno left #perl6
17:36 TimToady Tene: he discovers the need for BEGIN semantics, then makes the mistake of automatically applying BEGIN semantics to every top-level statement, so he can't import into a block
17:37 masak joined #perl6
17:39 stkowski joined #perl6
17:39 cdarroch joined #perl6
17:39 cdarroch left #perl6
17:39 cdarroch joined #perl6
17:39 masak another interesting advantage of the 'commit often' practice is that when the VM maxes out on memory, becomes unresponsive, and needs to be killed, no unnecessary pulling of the hairs over lost data needs to be performed.
17:42 mikehh left #perl6
17:45 dalek rakudo/nom: cf9a50e | moritz++ | src/core/Cool-str.pm:
17:45 dalek rakudo/nom: fix .comb for zero-width matches that do not coincide with the current position. Also fixes .lines and thus RT #84070
17:45 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cf9a50e695
17:46 masak moritz_++
17:48 gdey left #perl6
17:49 moritz_ and of course I forgot something...
17:51 dalek rakudo/nom: 433000e | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
17:51 dalek rakudo/nom: run lines.t
17:51 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/433000e71f
17:51 donri joined #perl6
17:51 donri Hi there, I want to install rakudo to ~/.local, how?
17:52 moritz_ donri: configure parrot with --prefix=~/.local
17:52 moritz_ donri: build parrot
17:52 moritz_ donri: and then configure rakudo with --parrot-config=~/.local/bin/parrot_config
17:52 moritz_ build and install rakudo
17:52 moritz_ forgot, install parrot too of course
17:52 mtk left #perl6
17:52 moritz_ there's also a --gen-parrot-prefix option in Configure.pl, but I think it has been reported not to work reliably
17:52 Tedd1 left #perl6
17:53 donri so I can't use --gen-parrot?
17:54 moritz_ you can try (together with --gen-parrot-prefix), but I'm not sure if it works.
17:54 icwiener joined #perl6
17:54 plobsing left #perl6
17:56 lakshman joined #perl6
17:56 dalek rakudo/nom: b56186a | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
17:56 dalek rakudo/nom: parrot 3.1 release is immanent, bump PARROT_REVISIOIN for testing
17:56 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b56186ac17
17:57 moritz_ oops, I accidentally committed all my last changes to nom instead of master
17:57 moritz_ I guess i need to cherry-pick then
17:59 sorear wait, does this mean you just got rakudo/nom ready to release? :)
18:00 moritz_ "parrot 3.1 release is immanent", not "rakudo release" :-)
18:00 moritz_ anyway, I don't think it hurts nom to have those commits
18:00 MayDaniel joined #perl6
18:00 moritz_ so I've just cherry-picked to master, and might even get double karma for my errors :-)
18:01 jdhore TimToady, Oh no, you used Flinstones characters too?
18:01 mtk joined #perl6
18:01 masak --gen-parrot-prefix "works", but you have to do a lot of the build process as root.
18:01 dalek rakudo: 6fbb341 | moritz++ | src/core/Cool-str.pm:
18:01 dalek rakudo: fix .comb for zero-width matches that do not coincide with the current position. Also fixes .lines and thus RT #84070
18:01 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6fbb341770
18:01 dalek rakudo: 3de0187 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
18:01 dalek rakudo: run lines.t
18:01 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3de018750c
18:01 dalek rakudo: 6f9116f | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
18:01 dalek rakudo: parrot 3.1 release is immanent, bump PARROT_REVISIOIN for testing
18:01 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6f9116f8a7
18:02 TimToady jdhore: flintstones tends to be from merlyn++
18:02 moritz_ masak: unless you install to a location where you have writing permissions
18:02 masak jdhore: "nom" is a Flintstones character?
18:02 masak moritz_: oh, true.
18:02 jdhore TimToady, Yeah, i know he used them in Learning Perl, but i was hoping for a different set of example characters in Programming Perl. :D
18:02 * moritz_ tries that now
18:04 masak oh! it's release week!
18:05 [Coke] <random> at 24x80, the standard old school terminal is about 1/2 the golden ratio.
18:06 dakkar left #perl6
18:06 masak so if you put two next to each other, it's perfect? :)
18:07 TimToady which is great if you're characters are twice as tall as they are wide
18:07 TimToady *your
18:08 plobsing joined #perl6
18:09 masak 真吗?
18:09 moritz_ donri: sorry, I was wrong. --gen-parrot-prefix= works fine here
18:09 donri yep, me too
18:10 donri > say 'Victory!'
18:10 donri Victory!
18:10 masak .u victory
18:10 phenny U+270C VICTORY HAND (✌)
18:10 TimToady masak: if you're characters are double wide, then it's a 24x40 screen :P
18:10 TimToady *your
18:10 TimToady !?@#$!!
18:10 sorear cute.  I can't paste the second character there into my EUC-JP xterm running xjdic, it comes out as "?"
18:11 sorear .u 吗
18:11 phenny U+5417 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5417 (吗)
18:11 TimToady it's simplified
18:11 masak yeah, sorry about that.
18:11 TimToady try 嗎instead
18:11 masak simplified is what LEIM produces by default.
18:12 sorear oh, I guess I need to get my hands on a copy of xcdic
18:12 masak I wonder what proportion of text-centering and other text-justification algorithms in the world assume fixed width and break for double-width characters.
18:12 TimToady use a terminal that does Unicode, is my recommendation
18:12 masak s/justification/justifying/
18:13 * TimToady imagines programming Perl 6 in a proportional font someday
18:13 moritz_ masak: all those that work with proportional fonts shouldn't have problems with double-width
18:13 TimToady there's somewhere Python can't go...
18:14 TimToady otoh, internal tabs are a problem in any language
18:15 sorear TimToady: funny that; I actually had trouble finding a terminal that was willing to *not* do Unicode
18:15 bacek left #perl6
18:15 sorear maybe someday I'll patch xjdic to add utf-8 to the supported encodings
18:15 MayDaniel left #perl6
18:16 masak TimToady: what's the allure of programming in a proportional font? I like the vertical aligning I can get from monospaced.
18:17 TimToady the question is whether the internal representation loses info; most Japanese editors still store in some non-Unicode form, iiuc
18:17 masak things like putting the hash values in the same column.
18:17 TimToady other than the tab problem, proportional text is prettier
18:18 sorear why can't Python do proportional fonts?
18:19 TimToady very difficult to detect mismatches when there's no redundancy
18:19 masak I once saw a proposal for a proportional-font editor with settable tab stops. if I were interested in proportional fonts for my source code, that's probably what I'd want.
18:19 masak I've also sometimes envied Fortress for its conversion to LaTeX.
18:19 moritz_ TimToady: prettier, but not better suited. In programming 'thin' characters like . and , usually carry much more meaning. Having them too thin makes code hard to read
18:20 sorear masak: check out lhs2TeX if you haven't already
18:21 moritz_ also constructs that match \w\.\w appear much more often in program code, and looks just Plain Wrong in proportional fonts
18:22 masak sorear: ooh
18:22 TimToady moritz_: your points are valid, but I often wish I had more choice than single or double width chars
18:23 moritz_ TimToady: maybe it's just that current proportional fonts weren't designed for programming
18:23 TimToady nod
18:24 risou__ left #perl6
18:25 risou joined #perl6
18:25 Axius joined #perl6
18:30 gdey joined #perl6
18:30 sorear text files period are a pretty lousy interface to compilers
18:30 sorear but every replacment I've seen sucks more, so
18:34 masak aye.
18:42 * sorear ponders the implementation of &run on the CLR
18:43 sorear the CLR System.Diagnostics.Process class, AFAICT, only supports running programs by $filename, $restofcommandline
18:45 cjk101010 left #perl6
18:45 TimToady yes, every program gets to build in its own "shell" quoting
18:45 sorear it's not clear how to map run($command) or run(@argv) onto that
18:46 sorear kinda silly since on the other end, the CLR provides a perfectly ordinary string[] argv to Main methods
18:47 TimToady yeah, it's almost as bad as having a filesystem that is anti-gnostic to encodings
18:47 sorear anti-gnostic?
18:47 DarthGandalf left #perl6
18:48 TimToady not only doesn't know, doesn't want to know
18:48 * sorear thinks that a consistently UTF-16 filesystem is one of the things Windows does *much* better than Unix
18:49 TimToady yes, though I suspect that one of the centuries Unix will settle on a consistent UTF-8 system
18:50 TimToady coupling filename encodings to locale is insane
18:51 TimToady anyway, wrt run() you might be able to steal some ideas from P5
18:52 TimToady since it also has to deal with the Windows view of reality
18:52 sorear P5 only has to deal with the Windows view of reality on Windows
18:53 TimToady if it's feature decomposed correctly, it should depend on the "feature", not the OS
18:53 DarthGandalf joined #perl6
18:53 TimToady that was actually one of the earliest innovations in the early Configure scripts for rn and Perl
18:54 TimToady up till then, most #ifdefs were architecture based
18:54 TimToady rn and Perl switch to feature-based #ifdefs
18:54 TimToady *ed
18:55 TimToady an idea later picked up by the autoconf folks
18:55 Axius left #perl6
18:55 PerlJam good * #perl6
18:56 Axius joined #perl6
18:56 TimToady */
18:57 PerlJam TimToady: if you hadn't written patch, do you think someone else would have (at that time)?
18:57 TimToady eventually someone would have figgered it out, but there was a psychological barrier
18:57 TimToady which was that ed already provided a way to spit out a script
18:57 TimToady er, diff
18:57 TimToady could spit out an ed scripts
18:58 TimToady so people assumed that if they wanted to automate something, they should use that form of diff output
18:58 TimToady one of those places where the Unix philosophy was bogus
18:58 TimToady since ed didn't do one thing, nor did it do it well.  :)
18:58 TimToady and same for diff
18:59 Tedd1 joined #perl6
18:59 TimToady so there was a barrier to realizing that a context diff could be read by computers as well as humans
18:59 TimToady I just saw through that barrier first
19:00 TimToady or was crazy enough to do something about it, might be more accurate
19:00 PerlJam heh, I showed some diff output to some students the other day.  I think they'd contest the idea that diff output can be read by humans  ;)
19:00 TimToady patch was really written in self-defence before the 2nd version of rn came out, since no one would patch the first version consistently
19:01 molaf left #perl6
19:01 TimToady kids these days can only read tiny proportional-font letters on a tiny touchscreen
19:01 TimToady *defense if you're not British
19:02 mberends joined #perl6
19:03 flussence I don't agree with always-UTF16 being a good idea on a filesystem. Not saying UTF-8 is perfect, but that at least is optimised for the common case
19:03 PerlJam my filesystem is ASCII and I like it that way!
19:03 PerlJam ;>
19:03 rdesfo joined #perl6
19:04 flussence specifying utf-byte-width per directory might've been a better approach IMO
19:04 sorear flussence: there are 3 billion people in East Asia who would object to your notion of "the common case"
19:04 TimToady flussence: it's the common case in western countries only..what sorear said
19:04 sorear hanzi are 50% larger in utf8 than utf16
19:04 sjohnson what's wrong with utf-8 filenames?
19:04 sorear not 100% sure about devanagari et al
19:05 flussence yeah, but there's still about 100k files on an OS disk that never need more than ASCII...
19:05 sorear .u KANNADA
19:05 phenny U+0C85 KANNADA LETTER A (ಅ)
19:05 sorear .u DEVANAGARI
19:05 TimToady UTF-8 also doesn't need to worry about byte order
19:05 phenny U+0950 DEVANAGARI OM (ॐ)
19:06 PerlJam I think it's just that that whole idea of a "file" is moving from being a "low level, OS-centric thing" to being a "high level, user-centric thing"
19:06 PerlJam files used to be user-centric only by accident.
19:07 sorear the concept of files used to be pretty diverse
19:07 sorear "a file is a string of bytes" is actually quite recent
19:07 TimToady Unix: do half a thing and do it half well...
19:08 flussence that just means theres 75% room for improvement :)
19:08 sorear pre-Unix files wore more like tables in a modern database (except without joins)
19:09 sorear the memetic precursor of the modern file was the stack of punched cards
19:10 sorear when files started appearing, they kept a lot of misfeatures like 80-byte blocks at first
19:10 PerlJam It's all Herman Hollerith's fault
19:12 sorear FORTRAN 66 makes a beautiful example of people retaining tabular-data mentality even when it's completely inappropriate to the problem domain...
19:13 vmspb joined #perl6
19:13 PerlJam sorear: just like all of those people who insist on using terminals that are 80 characters wide or write code that wraps at approximately 80 characters to accomodate them.
19:14 sorear I try to keep my code under 66 characters ;)
19:15 masak I try not to go beyond 78 characters.
19:15 masak it's more of a challenge in Java than in Perl 5/6 ;)
19:16 PerlJam I try to keep my terminals more than 100 chars wide but less than 150   :)
19:16 PerlJam And I do still use a fixed-width font
19:17 * sorear wonders if PerlJam used to use a VTxx in 132-column mode
19:17 mberends I prefer 72 characters because the output of pod2text then still fits in 80 characters, and hardcopy on A4 has a reasonable margin.
19:17 PerlJam sorear: vt220 I think ... yep
19:18 PerlJam sorear: but back then I still coded as if there was an invisible barrier at 80 characters because most terminals were
19:18 PerlJam mberends: be not constrained by the limitations of dead trees!
19:18 mberends heh
19:19 plobsing left #perl6
19:26 aesop left #perl6
19:27 bacek joined #perl6
19:28 plobsing joined #perl6
19:33 donri So because you never get this question: a complete, stable and "production ready" perl6 implementation, are we talking a year or five?
19:34 tadzik two
19:34 tadzik *SCNR*
19:34 tadzik seriously, rather five than two, IMHO
19:34 dsp_ wasn't it due out by christmas?
19:34 tadzik but I'd Love to be wrong
19:35 takadonet dsp_: we never told you which christmas :)
19:35 dsp_ takadonet: ssshhhh :D
19:35 mberends donri: it depends who you ask. I think... I'd rather not say ;-)
19:38 masak donri: I would answer the question if I thought there was a single answer.
19:38 masak in reality, it's a sliding-scale thing.
19:38 donri In summary, what are the different answers? :)
19:38 donri I'll happily take a very loose estimation
19:38 masak "two years", "five years", "rather not say", "don't think there's one answer" :)
19:39 donri :D
19:39 masak donri: here's what happened for me: I started out using Perl 6. a lot. then I realized that I can already use it for a fair amount of things.
19:39 masak donri: and for other things it's unusable, but will be usable in the future.
19:40 masak and it's difficult to summarize the situation better than that.
19:40 masak I explicitly don't believe in a big-bang Production Ready 6.0.0 release thing.
19:41 masak the closest thing we had like that was Rakudo Star, this last summer.
19:41 masak it made a splash, but not a particularly big one, as splashes go. I doubt we'll have the chance to make a bigger one anytime soon.
19:42 masak so we should focus on showing Perl 6's current strengths, and pulling people in to help work on its weaknesses. :)
19:42 masak donri: does that answer your question?
19:43 donri There doesn't seem to be an answer to my question. ;)
19:44 masak someone with a crystal ball might do better.
19:44 flussence it'll be production ready when you start using it in production
19:44 masak I use it in production.
19:45 masak it's been faithfully rendering the HTML of my blog since September.
19:46 donri Last I checked, e.g. speed wasn't even a concern yet and rakudo was mad slow on random dead-simple things
19:46 donri Which is certianly understandable and surely acceptable, but not what I mean with "production ready"
19:47 jnthn By now, speed is very high on the list. :)
19:47 mberends Lately I figured out what I think most people mean by "production ready". It means "guaranteed as far as we can tell not to break your production source code any more". Which to us means, the specs freeze.
19:48 cogno joined #perl6
19:48 donri I'm not even sure what I mean, thus the scare-quotes.
19:48 flussence if you want "guaranteed not to break with updates", one option is to never update. Ever.
19:48 flussence (my $dayjob does that...)
19:48 donri But there are rather well established practices of what to call a alpha release and what to call a final release.
19:49 donri Where would you say rakudo is on such a spectrum?
19:49 masak mberends: well, a couple of days ago S05 changed. that's generally the most stable synopsis, IMO. spec freeze, by whatever mechanism that's applied, doesn't seem to be on the horizon.
19:50 MayDaniel joined #perl6
19:50 masak mberends: OTOH, I'm not sure it'd be beneficial to consider a spec freeze before we have a reasonably versatile/complete implementation.
19:50 [Coke] doesn't pmichaud have a blog entry somewhere about stable vs. alpha vs. 1.0 that tries to address the terminology?
19:50 flussence to use a javascript analogy, I'd say Rakudo's at where Firefox 2.0 was
19:51 flussence the useful stuff is there, it's just not fast yet
19:51 masak donri: on such a spectrum, I would say Rakudo is somewhere between alpha and beta. but even there, it's not as one-dimensional as that.
19:51 mberends masak: +1. After a first "ready" I guess specs can still extend the language, but must do so within non-breaking constraints the way Perl 5 does.
19:51 masak donri: some features of Rakudo are very stable.
19:52 masak mberends: we could always do releases of the spec: 6.0.0, 6.1.0...
19:52 masak mberends: though I believe it's still much too early to do that.
19:52 mberends yes
19:52 masak mberends: similarly, I believe it's still much too early for any specific Perl 6 module in the ecosystem to do versioning.
19:52 masak it's just not worth the hassle.
19:52 masak yet.
19:53 TimToady if you declare you're using a particular version of Perl, then we have to emulate that version later, according to spec
19:53 TimToady we could start 6.0.0 today, but we'd end up with a lot of emulation later
19:54 mberends so let's not do that ;)
19:55 masak I think the most beneficial thing for Perl 6 would be if people keep on implementing the spec like we are now, making it ever more stable/reliable/frozen. meanwhile, we promote the language through blog posts, talks, and tutorials.
19:55 shi joined #perl6
19:55 TimToady and rosettacode :)
19:55 masak \o/
19:55 jnthn And using it for stuff. :)
19:55 TimToady esp dogfoody stuff
19:56 masak aye.
19:56 [Coke] I need to get a "safe" rakudo install I can use for day to day that isn't constantly getting blown away by parrot & rakudo upgrades.
19:56 donri Wasn't that what Star was intended to be?
19:56 masak [Coke]: huh? blown away?
19:56 TimToady I've not had much of anything blown away, ever.
19:56 masak [Coke]: just don't upgrade! :)
19:57 TimToady my quiz editor has been working with HEAD for some time now
19:57 jnthn Not surprised, if you never moved from HEAD to master :P
19:57 TimToady 'course that's not stressing the new bits :)
19:57 TimToady well, whatever the front thing is called
19:58 mberends TimToady: I don't doubt your word at all, but why esp dogfoody stuff?
19:58 jnthn heh, it's kinda still called HEAD in git ;)
19:58 masak [Coke]: the only painful upgrade for me was from alpha to ng. took months to move the code over.
19:58 aesop joined #perl6
19:58 jnthn Yeah, alpha => ng was ouchy.
19:58 masak mberends: because dogfoody stuff simultaneously exercises the language and produces tools for the language?
19:58 * jnthn is going to do his best to make ng => nom far less painful
19:58 masak mberends: like neutro, for example.
19:59 TimToady currently the dogfoody stuff puts the most stress on the system to be stable and fast
19:59 TimToady or more accurately, stabilizable and optimizable...
20:00 [Coke] I upgrade parrot several times a day, and when i install rakudo, I  put it in the same place. I often wipe the install directory as part of testing parrot.
20:00 masak also, dogfoody stuff tends to put me in a mood of "let's just write it like this" without being too worried about whether Rakudo supports it. it's a great way to discover rakudobugs :)
20:00 mberends I thought it might have been about reducing dependence on other tools, or about a higher level of Turing Completeness that I'm not aware of.
20:00 MayDaniel left #perl6
20:01 TimToady it's more about forcing convergence where we can, and minimizing platform dependencies
20:01 TimToady while keeping the language optmizable for any specific VM
20:02 TimToady *i
20:03 TimToady and keeping the platform-agostical optimizations platform agnostic
20:03 mberends *n
20:03 TimToady that too
20:04 * TimToady wonders what a "gostic interpolation" would be...
20:05 frettled Might be related to Gosling?
20:13 masak or ghosts?
20:16 Axius left #perl6
20:18 bacek left #perl6
20:18 cogno I have lost touch with perl6, so I may talk silly, but should not be a github group for stable Perl 6 software.
20:18 masak cogno: seen http://modules.perl6.org?
20:19 cogno A major Perl 6 release should not break these softs or they should be fixed before.
20:19 masak cogno: that's a nice goal, but hard to enforce without some kind of tooling/automation.
20:19 cogno Masak: do we commit to fix these if broken.
20:19 cogno ??
20:20 moritz_ cogno: who is "we"?
20:20 moritz_ cogno: if you commit to it, "we" do :-)
20:20 cogno :)
20:20 moritz_ I personally also commit to fix my modules, as soon as I learn of breakage
20:20 _jaldhar_ left #perl6
20:20 masak cogno: things like that are fixed as soon as we become aware of them.
20:22 lateau left #perl6
20:22 cogno Modules are hot dog food :)
20:23 jimbob left #perl6
20:24 masak cogno++ # "hot dog food"!
20:25 fhelmberger left #perl6
20:26 cogno Cogno is too much occupied learning category theory, chu spaces and HTML 5 to pay enough attention to Perl 6. But I am sure all these interests will converge someday
20:27 masak undoubtedly.
20:33 cogno Masak, i am considering writing subway shuffle as a HTML canvas
20:33 plainhao left #perl6
20:36 moritz_ don't consider, do
20:37 masak </yoda>
20:47 tadzik what's "dogfoody stuff"?
20:49 TimToady http://en.wikipedia.org/wik​i/Eating_your_own_dog_food
20:51 plobsing left #perl6
20:53 [Coke] icecreaming, champagning...
20:54 TimToady marketroids don't understand humility
20:57 MayDaniel joined #perl6
20:58 coldhead joined #perl6
20:58 Mowah left #perl6
21:00 * mathw finds the 6model Rakudo code very interesting
21:01 jnthn mathw: The few bits I put into the Rakudo repo in the nom branch so far?
21:02 mathw yeah
21:02 ymasory_ joined #perl6
21:02 moritz_ jnthn: I advertised them in a blog post :-)
21:02 mathw src/metamodel, yeah?
21:02 mathw I'm finding it pleasingly comprehensible
21:02 moritz_ yes
21:02 jnthn mathw: src/Perl6/Metamodel
21:02 jnthn Not src/metamodel - that's the older stuff ;)
21:02 mathw hah
21:03 VXZ joined #perl6
21:03 mathw okay is the new stuff as comprheensible
21:03 mathw does this mean I should've learned how rakudo works inside earlier?
21:03 mathw (but when would I have had time for that)
21:03 jnthn mathw: Yes :)
21:03 cogno left #perl6
21:04 jnthn moritz_: Any chance you could link to https://github.com/rakudo/rakud​o/tree/nom/src/Perl6/Metamodel instead? :)
21:04 mathw okay so ClassHOW is good...
21:04 mathw just a big collection of roles
21:04 moritz_ jnthn: yes, doing that now...
21:04 jnthn mathw: It'll have some bits of its own.
21:04 mathw good
21:04 jnthn mathw: But yes, much of it comes from roles.
21:04 mathw it would be a bit too mind-bending if it could all come from roles
21:05 jnthn mathw: If you find the factoring interesting also see http://scg.unibe.ch/archive/pape​rs/Duca05ySafeMetaclassTrait.pdf
21:06 mathw it certainly makes sense t ohave roles for AttributeContainer and MethodContainer
21:06 jnthn Right. Roles and classes both have methods.
21:06 jnthn And roles come in their parametric and concrete variants.
21:07 mathw heh I see RoleContainer is missing a certain something special :)
21:07 jnthn mathw: Right.
21:07 jnthn mathw: It'll come later. See https://github.com/rakudo/rak​udo/blob/nom/NOMMAP.markdown for my nom roadmap.
21:08 mathw well of course it'll come later :)
21:08 mathw it's awesome that you can write metaclasses in NQP like this
21:09 jnthn mathw: Scarier is that NQPs own metaclasses are written in NQP. :)
21:09 jnthn Bootstrapping FTW.
21:09 jnthn But yes, I'm enjoying writing them in a Perl 6 subset. :)
21:09 mathw so the only bits not written in NQP are the fundamental components you need to implement the metamodel?
21:09 jnthn Right.
21:09 mathw awesome
21:10 jnthn There's one core meta-object.
21:10 mathw I'd read that this was going to be good for porting to other platforms, but I hadn't realised it was *this* good
21:10 jnthn The bits are are VM-specific are chosen very carefully.
21:10 jnthn s:1st/are/that/
21:10 masak jnthn++
21:10 jnthn So we can write the meta-objets in this way, but still get good performance.
21:10 mathw nice
21:11 jnthn There's only so many code paths that need to be really fast. They're method dispatch, attribute access, object allocation and nominal type checks.
21:12 mathw well when you get right down to it, those are what an object-oriented system is built on
21:12 Rotwang joined #perl6
21:12 moritz_ jnthn: links updated
21:12 jnthn moritz_++
21:12 cogno joined #perl6
21:13 mathw :)
21:13 mathw jnthn++
21:14 TimToady group ++
21:15 tadzik looking at https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/​nom/src/Perl6/Metamodel/Versioning.pm I assume nqp has no '$.foo'?
21:15 jnthn tadzik: Correct
21:15 jnthn Not at the moment, anyway
21:15 mathw everybody++
21:15 masak chromatic++ # http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2011/02/want-b​etter-perl-6-sooner-write-rakudo-benchmarks.html
21:16 jnthn tadzik: We could easily do the non-rw case of those.
21:16 tadzik jnthn: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/sr​c/Perl6/Metamodel/AttributeContainer.pm#L15 -- why not push like in #23?
21:16 colomon chromatic++ indeed!  sweet post.
21:17 jnthn tadzik: There's an attribute auto-viv, erm, curiosity in NQP at the moment.
21:17 jnthn I need to talk with pmichaud++ about how to best deal with it.
21:17 tadzik mhm
21:17 masak jnthn: attribute auto-viv?
21:17 jnthn It's not new. Curiously, I ended up with the exact same "bug" in nqpclr too :)
21:18 jnthn masak: At the moment, an attribute slot for has @!foo is empty and the first time it's accessed an array lazily springs to life in it.
21:18 jnthn masak: If it's used in a binding context, all ends very well.
21:18 jnthn If it's not...things end badly.
21:18 masak huh.
21:18 jnthn Right. :)
21:19 jnthn I think Pm probably has some views on how to fix this.
21:19 jnthn So I'd rather hear them before diving in and changing stuff.
21:19 tadzik I don't get it, why cuddled elses are bad. Everyone likes to be cuddled
21:19 jnthn masak: But it'll get changed/fixed in some way, for sure.
21:20 masak tadzik: you're allowed to cuddle your elses on Valentine's Day :)
21:20 tadzik my elses have Valentine's day everyday :)
21:21 masak tadzik: have you read "Perl Best Practices"?
21:21 tadzik masak: nah
21:21 masak there's an argument there about it.
21:21 mathw I don't think I've ever seen anybody arguing for cuddled elses in any language at all
21:21 masak it goes like this: the eye scans vertically along the leftmost edge of the code.
21:22 * mathw -> bed
21:22 masak therefore, important things should be first on the line.
21:22 masak therefore, consider not cuddling your elses.
21:22 TimToady makes it easier to install an elsif too
21:22 PerlJam masak: except that "the left most edge" is larger than 1 charcter  :)
21:22 PerlJam er, character
21:23 TimToady and vertical screen real estate isn't all that important anymore
21:23 masak PerlJam: well, even then it's about probabilities, and you want to maximize those.
21:25 kst left #perl6
21:25 kst joined #perl6
21:26 cogno left #perl6
21:28 MayDaniel left #perl6
21:36 plobsing joined #perl6
21:43 kjeldahl left #perl6
21:51 kjeldahl joined #perl6
21:52 VXZ left #perl6
21:54 PerlJam Hrm.  http://www.perlfoundation.org/​perl6/index.cgi?documentation has many LTA links and I can't seem to login to fix them :(
22:03 jnthn moritz_: Somehow, it seens nqp doesn't have a non-zero when an unhandled exception occurs now. Instead, it prints the usage message. Any ideas?
22:06 icwiener left #perl6
22:10 kaare_ left #perl6
22:12 jdhore Question: If i use static typing (my Str $foo) in Perl 6, are there (or is it planned to have) anything like casts or functions to do conversions? Or is it basically assumed that if you'd be using a cast, just don't statically type.
22:13 PerlJam jdhore: static typing and type conversions are not mutually exclusive you know
22:14 jdhore true
22:14 PerlJam jdhore: so ... "functions to do conversions"    Sure, why not?
22:15 jnthn It's probably better to see those as type constraints that may or may not have static effects.
22:15 Tene rakudo: say 1.WHAT; say 1.Str.WHAT;
22:15 masak casts generally look like this in Perl 6: (2 + 2).Str
22:15 p6eval rakudo 6f9116: OUTPUT«Int()␤Str()␤»
22:15 Tene like that
22:15 masak what Tene said :)
22:15 Rotwang what is this ␤ character?
22:15 PerlJam Rotwang: a newline?
22:15 masak it's a representation of a newline.
22:16 Rotwang thx
22:16 masak 'say' prints stuff and then a newline.
22:16 masak either that, or we really like the Netherlands :P
22:17 jnthn Well, or both. ;)
22:17 * jnthn likes newlines AND the Netherlands
22:18 masak jdhore: I think an Apocalypsis mentioned that if an assignment is going to fail because of type mismatch, Perl 6 can look for the needed type conversion method. it's not spec though, and I'm not 100% convinced it's a good idea.
22:19 jnthn It's not spec, and not likely to happen.
22:19 masak there you go, then.
22:19 jnthn We may introduce coercion types to explicitly say you want that.
22:19 moritz_ 23:03 < jnthn> moritz_: Somehow, it seens nqp doesn't have a non-zero when an [...]
22:19 PerlJam Implicit conversions are evil
22:19 moritz_ non-zero return status? or what?
22:19 jnthn moritz_: sorry, I was sure I'd typed exit code!
22:19 jnthn moritz_: But let me make realclean just to be sure I've got everything straight...
22:20 moritz_ ./nqp -e 'pir::die("foo")'; echo $?
22:20 moritz_ foo
22:20 moritz_ [backtrace]
22:20 moritz_ 1
22:20 moritz_ seem just fine
22:20 * moritz_ -> sleep
22:21 masak moritz_: 'night. you'll have the p4 post to look forward to tomorrow :)
22:21 am0c left #perl6
22:24 zb left #perl6
22:29 alester left #perl6
22:35 zb joined #perl6
22:42 donri rakudo: say [+] gather for 1..999 { take $_ unless $_ % (3 & 5); }
22:42 p6eval rakudo 6f9116: OUTPUT«233168␤»
22:42 donri What do I win?
22:46 masak rakudo: say [+] grep { $_ %% (3 | 5) }, ^1000
22:46 p6eval rakudo 6f9116: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
22:47 zb left #perl6
22:47 masak rakudo: say [+] grep { $_ %% 3 & 5 }, ^1000
22:47 p6eval rakudo 6f9116: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
22:49 masak rakudo: .say unless $_ % (3 & 5) for 3..15
22:49 p6eval rakudo 6f9116: OUTPUT«3␤5␤6␤9␤10␤12␤15␤»
22:49 Tene rakudo: say [+] ^1000.grep: * %% 3 & 5
22:49 p6eval rakudo 6f9116: OUTPUT«0␤»
22:50 Tene rakudo: say [+] ^1000.grep: * %% (3 & 5)
22:50 p6eval rakudo 6f9116: OUTPUT«0␤»
22:50 Tene rakudo: say [+] (^1000).grep: * %% (3 & 5)
22:50 masak ...timeout
22:50 p6eval rakudo 6f9116: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
22:50 masak :(
22:51 cosimo_ joined #perl6
22:51 Tene rakudo: say [+] (^1000).grep: * %% 3
22:51 p6eval rakudo 6f9116: OUTPUT«166833␤»
22:51 bpalmer joined #perl6
22:52 donri and multiples of five
22:52 zb joined #perl6
22:52 donri rakudo: say [+] (1..999).grep: { !($_%(3&5)) }
22:53 p6eval rakudo 6f9116: OUTPUT«233168␤»
22:54 * PerlJam idly wonders if !%% works
22:55 jnthn std: 5 !%% 3
22:55 p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
22:58 am0c joined #perl6
22:59 shi left #perl6
23:03 donri lack of readline in the interactive rakudo is such an annoyance :(
23:04 Tene donri: I have readline...
23:04 Tene donri: do you maybe not have readline-dev or whatever installed?
23:04 donri quite possible. need to recompile rakudo after installing that?
23:05 Tene You'll want to make sure to do a clean of the parrot dir too, to make sure parrot properly detects it during configure
23:05 donri git clean -fdx
23:05 Tene it's a parrot issue; rakudo just uses whatever parrot provides.
23:05 Tene ftw
23:07 zb left #perl6
23:07 zb joined #perl6
23:11 Rotwang left #perl6
23:13 zb left #perl6
23:15 whiteknight joined #perl6
23:18 dalek rakudo/nom: 6c07d98 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/ClassHOW.pm:
23:18 dalek rakudo/nom: Fill out ClassHOW a little more.
23:18 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6c07d984f3
23:18 dalek rakudo/nom: ed92a03 | jnthn++ | src/core-nom/ (3 files):
23:18 dalek rakudo/nom: Start to sketch out the initial bits of the new core setting. Note that none of this will compile yet, much less run.
23:18 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ed92a0348c
23:20 Sargun left #perl6
23:20 donri thanks Tene, works :)
23:21 sorear good * #perl6
23:21 tadzik hello sorear
23:21 donri good morningstar to you too good sir or otherwise
23:22 masak ok, people -- the wait is over: http://strangelyconsistent.org/blo​g/p4-pick-the-last-pair-of-stones
23:23 Sargun joined #perl6
23:25 tadzik the wait is over? „Oh well, let's wait for the last task's results” :)
23:26 masak that's a new, separate wait :P
23:27 masak tadzik: did you just jump to the bottom of the post, eager for the result of the contest? :)
23:29 jnthn masak: "pit all the five non-trivial solutions against each other" is a link to the blog post itself.
23:29 jnthn Should it be?
23:35 tadzik masak: no :)
23:35 felliott left #perl6
23:35 masak jnthn: no, that seems needlessly self-referent. :) fixing.
23:35 cogno joined #perl6
23:38 cogno left #perl6
23:39 masak fixed. jnthn++
23:41 dalek nqp: 1307625 | jonathan++ | src/pmc/dispatchersub.pmc:
23:41 dalek nqp: Fix up dispatcher sub cloning.
23:41 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/13076256c8
23:41 dalek nqp: 86697e2 | jonathan++ | src/metamodel/how/NQPMu.pm:
23:41 dalek nqp: Mark the Str proto as also being the parrot_vtable handler for get_string. This means say(SomeTypeObj) works.
23:41 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/86697e20c1
23:42 donri left #perl6
23:43 jnthn Turns out the new proto approach to multis makes some things a bunch easier. :)
23:45 Tene phenny: tell donri btw, if you *do* run into other non-readline programs, please use rlwrap.  Friends don't let friends use non-readline interactive programs. ;)
23:45 phenny Tene: I'll pass that on when donri is around.
23:45 masak *lol* -- in http://railspikes.com/2008/7/14​/why-programmers-should-play-go , this comment by "Internet TV", made my day: "Will have to check it out, haven’t heard of Go before. Looks a lot like pente."
23:45 masak only on the Internet...
23:46 masak (and possibly Usenet)
23:46 Tene .wik Pente
23:46 phenny "Pente is a strategy board game created in 1977 by Gary Gabrel." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pente
23:48 masak it's Pente that looks a lot like Go, fwiw.
23:48 Tene Rather. :)
23:48 masak but the similarities stop at the board and the stones.
23:48 plobsing you mean there's more to it than that? ;)
23:49 stkowski left #perl6
23:50 cotto left #perl6
23:51 masak anyway, it's as if someone would say "Will have to check it out, haven't heard of Chess before. Looks a lot like Crazyhouse."
23:53 Tene plobsing: Doesn't look like Pente has the knife fights.
23:54 bacek_at_work joined #perl6
23:54 bacek_at_work ~~
23:54 bacek_at_work masak, ping
23:54 * plobsing thought chess looked a lot like checkers for a while
23:54 masak bacek_at_work: pong
23:55 masak bacek_at_work: about to go to bed.
23:55 bacek_at_work masak, can you test rakudo on parrot's gen_gc2 branch? I hope I fixed it.
23:55 masak Tene: have you heard of Hex being described as "a knife fight in a phone booth"? it's quite fitting, at least for small boards.
23:56 masak bacek_at_work: ok, testing now.
23:56 bacek_at_work masak, thanks!
23:56 Tene masak: I haven't.
23:56 masak hey, anything to help the Parrot people ;)
23:57 Vlavv left #perl6

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo