Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-03-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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04:24 mberends good morning Su-Shee_
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05:52 sorear good * #perl6
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05:53 mberends good evening sorear
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06:26 tadzik good day
06:26 mberends morning tadzik
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06:29 tadzik what a wonderful week it is
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06:29 sorear how so?
06:30 sorear mberends: I hear you're having goto issues *lure* *lure*
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06:31 tadzik sorear: I passed my driving exam, plus I'm going for probably the most exciting holidays I've had for months, maybe even counting the holiday season. And they will be Perl6-related
06:31 mberends sorear: it's a nasty itch. My sekrit project lures me stronger, though.
06:32 * sorear out
06:32 tadzik so, I don't mind how things are :)
06:33 mberends tadzik: congrats on the driving license. Now only two more sleeps, and then the mini P6 hackathon really begins :)
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06:40 tadzik aye :)
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07:53 mberends donri: inventing toy languages on Parrot is exactly why pmichaud++ made the Parrot Compiler Toolkit.
07:54 donri Yea :)
07:54 moritz_ not just toy languages
07:55 donri Basing the syntax of a bastardization of Python + LISP + Haskell and some Perl 6, can you imagine
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07:57 donri http://i.imgur.com/6mIxi.png  hooray making a vim syntax file before anything else
07:58 mberends I think Perl 6 is doomed to remain a toy language unless we can make at least one implementation that people outside of its developer circle choose to use on a large scale.
07:59 donri Agreed. That day is not doomed to not come, I would think, but might take years.
07:59 mberends aye
08:03 tadzik ie eleven years? :)
08:08 mberends a hundred years was (I hope jokingly) posited as the expected lifetime of Perl 6, so we have plenty of wiggle room. The greatest danger is that alternative projects lure away most of the developers before that chosen-by-ousiders implementation is delivered.
08:11 donri You mean in a hundred years it will be obsoleted?
08:12 donri With the singularity just around the corner I'm not so sure ;)
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08:13 mberends donri: I am sure that a hundred years will see such unimaginable changes in computer architecture that there will be many currently unanticipated new language requirements.
08:13 donri Exactly
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08:14 donri Maybe the nanoclouds will run Erlang because of the heavy dependency on communication
08:14 donri mwahahah
08:15 * mberends looks for his Erlang manual and realises he doesn't have one
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08:23 mberends it's sunny but freezing here in NL. sunny++ freezing--
08:27 donri slightly-too-cold++ > slightly-too-hot--
08:28 mberends jnthn would agree with you, but having lived in Africa, I like it hot
08:29 donri I like boys hot but weather is best served cold.  :)
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08:56 jnthn mberends: Sounds like nice weather. ;)
08:56 jnthn morning all, btw :)
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08:59 moritz_ \o
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10:32 tadzik o/
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14:05 moritz_ it's quiet in here.
14:06 donri lies, moritz_ just spoke
14:06 moritz_ I spoiled it!
14:06 donri have you no shame
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14:34 pmurias sorear: ping
14:35 pmurias phenny: tell sorear could you explain what does newrwlist var do exactly?
14:35 phenny pmurias: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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14:59 PerlJam greetings
14:59 moritz_ o/
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15:15 takadonet morning all
15:15 PerlJam good morning takadonet
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15:23 sorear phenny: tell pmurias Do you know the difference between [1,2,3] and @([1,2,3]) ?  newrwlistvar is exactly like newscalar, but gives the result the flattening bit.
15:23 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when pmurias is around.
15:23 phenny sorear: 14:35Z <pmurias> tell sorear could you explain what does newrwlist var do exactly?
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15:32 takadonet pyrimidine: ping
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15:41 sorear good * #perl6
15:42 takadonet sorear: yo
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15:55 pmurias sorear: hi
15:55 phenny pmurias: 15:23Z <sorear> tell pmurias Do you know the difference between [1,2,3] and @([1,2,3]) ?  newrwlistvar is exactly like newscalar, but gives the result the flattening bit.
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16:13 sorear phenny: hi
16:13 sorear pmurias: hi
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16:14 pmurias sorear: i found a bug in niecza, commiting test for it..
16:15 dalek niecza: 345f499 | pmurias++ | / (2 files):
16:15 dalek niecza: [cl-backend] added division
16:15 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/345f4993e1
16:15 dalek niecza: e477540 | pmurias++ | t/bug.t:
16:15 dalek niecza: added test for bug
16:15 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/e477540c08
16:15 pmurias sorear: SAFE.pm6 has a 1/0, that's not valid Perl 6
16:15 pmurias rakudo: say 1/0
16:15 p6eval rakudo 74dcce: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
16:15 pmurias or is it?
16:15 pmurias pugs: 1/0
16:15 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Illegal division by zero␤    at /tmp/786Eb9JH0S line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
16:16 plobsing rakudo: say (1/0).perl
16:16 p6eval rakudo 74dcce: OUTPUT«1/0␤»
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16:17 sorear pmurias: niecza's handling of numbers is quite wrong; but there have been more important things to worry about :/
16:18 pmurias sorear: see the bug
16:18 pmurias sorear: it seems the pseudo-inlining pass turns some infix:<=> calls in constants incorrectly
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16:19 sorear pmurias: = in constants is syntactically special
16:20 sorear niecza: sub infix:<=>($,$b) { say $b }; constant quux = 1; my $a; $a = 2;
16:20 p6eval niecza v3-26-g77a9821: OUTPUT«2␤»
16:20 sorear looks right to me
16:20 sorear that's not pseudo-inlining at work - it's special-cased in STD and in the actions
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16:21 sorear pugs: sub infix:<=>($,$b) { say $b }; constant quux = 1;
16:21 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "$,$"␤    expecting formal parameter or ")"␤    at /tmp/X5YKhdECge line 1, column 15␤»
16:21 sorear pugs: sub infix:<=>($a,$b) { say $b }; constant quux = 1;
16:21 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "="␤    expecting ":" or "("␤    at /tmp/PrnWzqQyiy line 1, column 48␤»
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16:50 pmurias sorear: other thing, all the bif_* opcodes take containers as arguments, once we have an container removal optimalisation pass that will have to change
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16:54 pyrimidine takadonet: pong
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16:57 sorear phenny: tell TimToady pmurias and I disagree on what sub infix:<=>($,$a) { say $a }; constant foo = 5; # should do
16:57 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
16:58 sorear pmurias: I'm still waiting for a revelation on container removal.  As long as post-declared subs can have is rw arguments, I don't think it's feasable.
16:58 pmurias sorear: i don't have a strong opinion on that
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17:00 jnthn sorear: Looking at STD and pondering implementation sanity, I agree with your interpretation.
17:01 pmurias sorear: we will need a proper optimalisation framework to do that
17:01 pmurias that is something hoopl based rather then adhoc code transformations
17:02 sorear nothing whole program can be reasonably done here
17:03 sorear we need something fairly fast and sub-at-a-time, because as soon as a named sub is closed it can potentially be called
17:03 sorear I asked TimToady earlier about sub...sub...sub... BEGIN { eval "sub" ~ (0..9).pick }
17:04 sorear totally legit
17:04 pmurias hm?
17:05 * jnthn hopes that can be relaxed for 6.0.0
17:05 pmurias you mean using eval to generate a sub name?
17:06 jnthn pmurias: No, calling subs in the current compilation unit in a BEGIN
17:06 jnthn If they're outside of the BEGIN itself, of course.
17:07 sorear in general, every time a BEGIN block is seen, all previous subs need to be callable
17:08 sorear that includes implicit BEGINs in use, constant, enum, subset, etc
17:08 jnthn Easy to say, total nuisance to do.
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17:09 jnthn Guess we'll end up needing to, though. :/
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17:15 pmurias we can do the optimalisations after the last BEGIN
17:15 pmurias the optimiser doesn't have to be fast, if the optimiser takes 30sec to make the setting or a commonly used module a few times faster it's worth it
17:18 pmurias sorear: how can i compile SAFE.pm6 without a setting?
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17:26 sorear pmurias: on-stack replacement is a hard problem
17:28 sorear theoretically, we should wait until the end of the MAIN CHECK to do sensitive optimizations
17:28 sorear I'm not really sure how this should work
17:29 sorear it's SAFE.setting, and it *is* a setting
17:29 sorear I think you can just use -Bxxx -C SAFE
17:29 pmurias i want to run SAFE.setting with -Bclisp
17:30 pmurias and i don't want it to load lib/SAFE.setting
17:30 pmurias sorear: my understanding is that we will do whole program optimalisations once to program is safe to disk as .nam
17:30 sorear you don't need to do anything special - SAFE.setting is special cased to not load itself at NieczaFrontendSTD:497
17:34 pmurias in order to support calling subs out of BEGIN we will need to change our model to constructing the program picewise and then serialising it
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17:37 pmurias sorear: the psuedo-inliner doesn't handle the insides of infix:</> if i do that
17:39 pmurias sorear: would you mind the optimiser being in haskell (so that we don't need to rewrite hoopl)
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17:53 sorear pmurias: what do you mean?  -C CORE and -C SAFE work fine, they're used in the Makefile
17:55 sorear pmurias: yes, I oppose Haskell componenets.  I just got done getting rid of all the Perl 5 components - I'm now quite pleased that the compiler can run in a single process
17:57 pmurias bjj&
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17:57 sorear bjj?
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19:10 mberends lue: are you working on the P6 to GCC project you blogged about? (https://rdstar.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/some-thoughts-on-p6-on-gcc/) I highly recommend Andy Shitov's Boost/Spirit based "Personal Perl 6 compiler" as a proof of concept. Demo: http://perl6.ru/p6c Russian talk: http://talks.shitov.ru/ppt/kzpw2009/inside-perl6-compiler.pdf Source (in Subversion): svn://svn.shitov.ru/p6c
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19:39 tadzik http://wklej.org/id/485775/ -- wouldn't that fix this and that?
19:40 moritz_ tadzik: try it :-)
19:40 tadzik hmm
19:40 tadzik it probably won't break anything :) I'll see if it works and maybe commit
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19:42 masak lol hi zebras
19:43 tadzik hmm, seems that nqp can't parse "if 5 && 7 > 5"
19:43 tadzik hai masak!
19:43 tadzik or it can
19:43 moritz_ nqp: say(3) if 5 && 7 > 5;
19:43 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«3␤»
19:44 moritz_ nqp-rx: say(3) if 5 && 7 > 5;
19:44 moritz_ nqprx: say(3) if 5 && 7 > 5;
19:44 p6eval nqprx: OUTPUT«3␤»
19:44 moritz_ nqprx: if 5 && 7 > 5 { say('OH YES') };
19:44 p6eval nqprx: OUTPUT«OH YES␤»
19:44 * moritz_ doesn't see the problem
19:44 tadzik it's just me forgotting to use say with parens :)
19:44 tadzik forgetting I think
19:45 moritz_ I do that all the time too
19:45 tadzik but the patch doesn't parse for some reason
19:46 tadzik ooh, I see it
19:46 tadzik ...why two underscores? :(
19:46 tadzik it won't fit in my vim now
19:52 tadzik yay, it works!
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19:58 masak std: my $______
19:58 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
19:58 masak oh the obfuscation possibilities.
20:00 tadzik std: my $__\o/
20:00 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Confused at /tmp/viSNab8iqx line 1:␤------> [32mmy $__\[33m⏏[31mo/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     postfix␤        postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
20:00 jnthn std: ::_______
20:00 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
20:01 masak std: ::__::__::__
20:01 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
20:01 dalek rakudo: af66096 | tadzik++ | src/Perl6/Module/Loader.pm:
20:01 dalek rakudo: When loading a module, don't use .pir if it's older than the .pm
20:01 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/af66096a3f
20:01 tadzik yay, my 17th commit :)
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20:11 jnthn tadzik++ :D
20:11 masak I can't believe we didn't have that one already. tadzik++
20:11 jnthn That'll save some confusion. :)
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20:15 tadzik like with last Test.pm update
20:15 tadzik I wonder how many # XXX LHF live in the source tree
20:15 moritz_ ack for the rescue
20:16 tadzik almost a quarter of a percent of commits are mine :P
20:18 flussence for variable name obfuscation, PHP probably wins: $£€¥  = 1;
20:18 flussence .u
20:18 phenny U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE ( )
20:18 phenny U+0020 SPACE ( )
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20:24 plobsing jnthn: is it worth converting Zavolaj to use the new Parrot pointer types (old ones are deprecated), or will nom be bringing larger changes here?
20:27 jnthn Zavolaj is worth updating.
20:27 jnthn nom may enable a bunch of stuff but Zavolaj will certainly go on existing beyond it.
20:28 jnthn (e.g. nom may help Zavolaj be better, but isn't a replacement for it.)
20:28 plobsing but will my changes just get swallowed up in a sea of nom changes in a couple of weeks (a case where I'd classify it as "not worth it")
20:29 plobsing basically, how much does nom change the inner workings of Zavolaj?
20:31 jnthn Zavolaj mostly works off signature and object introspection. The APIs for those will change little so far as Zavolaj is concerned.
20:32 plobsing OK
20:32 jnthn So ti's certainly worth it.
20:32 jnthn *it's
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20:42 mberends \o/ zavolaj updates!
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22:23 dalek specs: e1c674c | (Dave Whipp)++ | S32-setting-library/Numeric.pod:
22:23 dalek specs: Add conjugate method (for RT 76602)
22:23 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/e1c674c451
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22:53 dwhipp I was able to push directly to perl6/specs, but rakudo/rakudo.git is denied. Should I fork and send a pull request, or can I get a commit bit for rakudo (or should I be editing a different branch)?
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22:58 tadzik you might not have a commit bit to rakudo
22:58 tadzik people like Pull Requests, I observed
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23:01 dwhipp I think I have commit bit for specs and tests, but not rakudo itself. Pull requests aren't hard though
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