Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-03-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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01:44 Chat1791 anyone in here from Canada
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01:45 sjohnson charsbar: yes
01:45 sjohnson oops.. wrong person
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02:46 diakopter hunh
02:48 sorear good * #perl6
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03:17 sorear dwhipp: hi
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03:49 sorear dwhipp_: Hi
03:49 dwhipp_ hi
03:49 sorear perl6/specs commit bits are handed out quite freely
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03:49 sorear if you want a rakudo commit bit, you need to mail in a waiver
03:50 dwhipp_ That OK, I can use pull requests
03:50 dwhipp_ I was just a little surprised by the asymmetry
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03:51 sorear http://www.perlfoundation.or​g/attachment/legal/cla3.pdf # I think this is the one
03:52 dwhipp_ colomon: thx for submitting my change
03:54 dwhipp_ sorear: thanks for the link
03:56 dwhipp_ Probably should do the legal stuff even without a commit bit -- patches are patches, however they get in
03:57 sorear If you plan to do anything on the Parrot side of the fence, know that PaFo has an independant CLA system
03:59 dwhipp_ It would be nice to do these things electronically -- physical docs seem so archaic
04:06 sorear you can scan a filled-out CLA and email it to (I forget where)
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04:06 sorear (someday, the world will figure out that digital signatures are more secure than scanned handwriting.  Someday.)
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05:11 cotto README says that ICU isn't a hard requirement for Rakudo.  Is that still correct?
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05:55 sorear cotto: It should be
05:55 sorear someday once we have more plumagy stuff icu will probably be made a hard dependancy
05:56 sorear but as long as enabling parrot-ICU remains prohibitively difficult on Win32, Rakudo has to cope with sometimes not having it
05:56 sorear AIUI
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05:58 cotto sorear, ok.  thanks
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07:36 tadzik morning
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08:56 mberends Here is an excellent thread that came up while researching "smoke testing". It brought back so many memories, particularly the "intermittent windshield wiper" that featured in my 1961 Mini 850.  http://www3.telus.net/bc_t​riumph_registry/smoke.htm
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09:02 jdhore mberends, you drive a 1961 Mini?
09:03 mberends drove, from 1975 to 1978
09:04 jdhore ah
09:05 jdhore Anyone who drives a classic Mini today is very worthy of my respect.
09:05 jdhore A classic Mini is a BRILLIANT car
09:05 mberends we once famously transported 8 people in it for about 5 miles - I was in the "trunk".
09:08 mberends it wasn't 100% original, the previous owner had modded it with a Weber carb that managed to reduce the fuel economy from 50 to 35 miles per gallon (imp).
09:09 jdhore wow
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09:09 jdhore With that carb, did it have about the same performance as the Cooper?
09:09 jdhore Or just that classic Rally Mini sound?
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09:10 mberends it was a hack, the performance came out worse istr. The 0-60 time was either 27 or 34 seconds.
09:11 jdhore ouch
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09:12 jdhore Even my "modern" (late 80's) 4-cylinder Diesel pickup truck has better performance than that
09:15 mberends so does my mid 90's 5-cylinder Diesel minibus
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09:19 jdhore hmm...mid-90's...5-cylinder...minibus...I'm guessing VW EuroVan?
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09:21 moritz_ dwhipp: just looked into the backlog... rakudo commit bit policy is a bit stricter than that of most other repos :(. After a few good patches and sending in a signed Contributor's License Agreement you usually get a commit bit
09:22 moritz_ dwhipp: until then you're stuck with pull requests / patches. Sorry about that.
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09:32 mberends jdhore: yes, Caravelle Club 8. most serious omission: aircon :(
09:32 jdhore I like aircon in a car, but it's not a must-have
09:35 mberends from personal experience I can confirm the old adage that if you have a (minibus|pickup truck|trailer), you'll always have friends :)
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09:38 jdhore heh
09:38 jdhore I do have the: "Yes I have A pickup truck, no I will not help you move" T-shirt
09:39 mberends ymmv ;-)
09:41 mberends lol
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09:54 pmurias sorear: ping
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10:20 moritz_ in perl 5, my $obj; sub f { $obj->x } keeps a reference to $obj, because sub f can be called from anywhere (it's in the symbol table)
10:20 moritz_ in perl 6, could $obj be garbage collected once &f goes out of scope (being lexical and all)?
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10:39 mberends moritz_: that makes sense
10:39 jnthn o/ #perl6
10:40 moritz_ \o
10:42 tadzik o/
10:43 tadzik imho sub f should hold a reference to $obj, so it won't get collected before f is
10:43 moritz_ sure
10:44 moritz_ the question is if &f's pad is going to get collected at all
10:44 moritz_ and I hope the answer is "yes"
10:44 mberends \o jnthn: for polpolnik, are you willing to upgrade the VirtualBox on pivo from 1.x to 4.x? It would simplify maintenance. That means going ex-Debian and installing VirtualBox from source.
10:46 mberends *popolnik
10:47 mberends (I'm making a repo of build scripts)
10:48 jnthn mberends: I'm very tight on time today/tomorrow - is it something that I need to help with?
10:49 jnthn mberends: It's not being used for anything else though.
10:49 jnthn So no problems with upgrading.]
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10:55 moritz_ tadzik: did you experiment with a :vtable('destroy') override in Mu.pir recently?
10:56 mberends jnthn: no rush, this weekend is fine. Unless you're happy to put my login into /etc/sudoers ;)
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11:03 mberends I suppose jnthn and masak have to finish their homework before they're allowed to go out and play
11:07 jnthn :P
11:08 jnthn $dayjob and talk slides and such fun :)
11:08 jnthn At least I got most of one of my talks done last night :)
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12:56 pmurias sorear: ping
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13:05 * colomon almost has smash's benchmarking code working on his system.
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13:24 colomon anyone know how to use DBI / SQLite?
13:24 moritz_ in Perl 6?
13:24 colomon no, in Perl 5.
13:24 takadonet morning all
13:24 colomon trying to get smash's benchmark stuff running.
13:24 colomon and he uses a perl 5 harness
13:24 moritz_ colomon: I'd look into the MiniDB test suite if there's an example
13:24 colomon error I'm getting is
13:24 colomon DBD::SQLite::db do failed: no such table: bench at run_bench.pl line 13.
13:24 colomon DBD::SQLite::db prepare failed: no such table: bench at run_bench.pl line 14.
13:25 moritz_ ah, seems like you need to create a table first
13:32 * colomon knows basically nothing of database handling in perl.
13:32 colomon or anywhere else, for that matter.
13:33 moritz_ if there's no schema in the benchmark repo, you have to try to reverse-engineer the table layout from the queries
13:33 takadonet ouch
13:33 colomon it looks like it should be very simple
13:34 colomon but then, I don't understand why he didn't just dump the results in a text file.
13:34 moritz_ in particular the code for inserting things into the db should contain all rows (except mabe autoincremeting IDs)
13:34 colomon my $sth = $dbh->prepare("INSERT INTO bench VALUES (?,?,?,?,?)");
13:34 moritz_ urks.
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13:37 colomon moritz_: if I get you a simple comma-separate file of benchmark results, can you use your amazing powers of SVG to make graphs?
13:38 takadonet colomon: Smash not around to help u?
13:38 moritz_ colomon: SVG::Plot can (it needs arrays of arrays, but it's an easy transformation; there are scripts that do something similar in the examples/ dir)
13:38 mberends colomon: I know very well how to write such code, but I don't want to spend time on your instance because it is covered by what I plan to do this weekend with popolnik.
13:38 * colomon does not have smash's graph code, just the benchmark running code
13:39 moritz_ it's the old "I want to polish this code before I publish it" thing
13:39 * moritz_ usually prefers unpolished code to unpublished code
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13:40 colomon takadonet: he's presumably busy, else he'd be running these benchmarks himself.
13:41 colomon poplnik?
13:42 jnthn .oO( Popolnik has something in common with Zavolaj and Blizkost. )
13:42 moritz_ a jnthnproject?
13:42 mberends popolnik: an ashtray (Slovak): a smoker results consolidation database
13:43 colomon ooo, smoker
13:43 [Coke] is rakudo's config system smart enough to bail out it parrot available is too old?
13:43 [Coke] (after switch to git?)
13:43 moritz_ mberends: is that your agenda for the hackathon?
13:43 jnthn moritz_: Language the name is taken from. :)
13:43 moritz_ [Coke]: yes
13:44 mberends moritz_: yes, one of the items, under the general umbrella of "ecosystem".
13:44 moritz_ [Coke]: the code is a bit convoluted, but stealable
13:45 [Coke] moritz_: ... Was just going to comment on the convoluted bit. :P
13:46 moritz_ [Coke]: I planned to do a single function that reads PARROT_REVISION, and returns the current revision (if any), the required, the release version (if any) and the information if it's new enough
13:47 moritz_ [Coke]: but after the decision to target nqp (which then targets parrot) I kinda lost motivation for doing so
13:47 moritz_ though now i realize that if it's not rakudo that needs that step, nqp will
13:48 jnthn :)
13:50 moritz_ it's just always a PITA to test
13:53 * moritz_ hates fragile systems without unit tests
13:57 colomon Life is a fragile system without unit tests.  ;)
13:58 moritz_ life has very rigid unit tests
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13:58 moritz_ called "survival"
13:58 moritz_ and if you fail, you die
13:59 moritz_ every commit to your DNA is check in post-commit hooks
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14:01 moritz_ that why we still live
14:03 [Coke] O_o
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14:09 mberends "life's a test, and then you die"
14:09 dalek rakudo: 9bca538 | moritz++ | build/lib/Parrot/CompareRevisions.pm:
14:09 dalek rakudo: [build] make parse_parrot_revision_file a bit more reusable
14:10 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9bca5384a7
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14:31 colomon phenny: tell masak Your svg module is still using done_testing.
14:31 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
14:33 moritz_ colomon: it does not :-)
14:33 * colomon finds it more than a little bit sad that he still has to install modules by hand, and fix things as he goes.
14:33 colomon ooo, moritz_'s svg module.
14:34 colomon I thought masak wrote it?
14:34 * colomon feels very confused
14:34 moritz_ we renamed masak's SVG module to XML::Writer or so
14:34 colomon phenny: tell masak Never mind.
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14:34 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
14:34 moritz_ and I've create a new SVG that is actually SVG specific (masak's wasn't)
14:34 colomon moritz_: yes, I installed that one first.  :)
14:35 colomon btw, I have a massive benchmarking run going on my 64-bit Linux system.
14:35 moritz_ now I've updated SVG::Plot too
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14:36 colomon and just before I could type "make test" in it!  moritz_++
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14:37 colomon btw, what I find sad isn't that we haven't fixed everything yet, but that our ecosystem is not well-enough used or automatically tested to detect build-breaking changes until months after they happen.
14:38 moritz_ agreed
14:39 colomon okay, so I've got a comma-separated data file, and svg-plot installed.
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14:41 moritz_ colomon: look at examples/parse-spectest-progress.pl
14:41 colomon just what I had open.  :)
14:41 moritz_ it uses Text::CSV::Simple to turn things into a graph
14:41 moritz_ but you might just was well split on ',' or so
14:42 colomon it is a very simple file format, after all.  :)
14:42 moritz_ though you might want to use :lines instead of :stacked-bars
14:43 colomon errr... Text::CSV::Simple isn't in the ecosystem?
14:44 * colomon is trying to run the example.
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14:44 moritz_ colomon: might be in the Text::CSV repo
14:45 colomon bah, I'm just going to jump in and start coding.
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14:45 moritz_ +1 :-)
14:46 moritz_ fwiw the tests from the SVG::Plot test suite are woefully incomplete
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14:46 moritz_ mostly because I don't have any clue how I should test it
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14:46 colomon moritz_: believe me, I understand how that works.
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14:49 colomon afk # toddler dressing time
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14:54 ruoso rakudo: say "hello from android irc client"
14:54 p6eval rakudo 9bca53: OUTPUT«hello from android irc client␤»
14:55 moritz_ niecza: say 'hello from another compiler :-)'
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14:55 p6eval niecza v3-28-ge477540: OUTPUT«hello from another compiler :-)␤»
14:55 moritz_ ruoso: how are you?
14:56 flussence_ ouch, just got bitten by Javascript treating null and undefined as separate values :(
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15:03 PerlJam flussence_: but ... they are separate values  :)
15:11 * moritz_ is all for having null, nil, undef, undefined and Mu as separate values in the language
15:13 flussence_ don't forget NaN :)
15:13 moritz_ of course, NaN and -NaN
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15:13 PerlJam moritz_: I'd be curious about the distinction you see between undef and undefined
15:14 PerlJam moritz_: other than that, I agree with you entirely  :)
15:14 moritz_ PerlJam: undef is from Perl 5, undefined from ECMAscript :-)
15:14 * moritz_ forgot Nil
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15:16 cotto I'm running spectest_regression against the mmd-op-cache branch of parrot.  When I run make spectest_regression I see a failure in test 13 of t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/instants-and-durations.t, but when I run that test alone it works.
15:16 flussence_ .oO( why isn't the opposite of "defined" called "fined"? )
15:16 moritz_ cotto: ignore that one
15:16 cotto moritz_, will do.  Thanks.
15:16 moritz_ cotto: it's a time dependent floating point inaccuracy in some p6 level code
15:16 cotto is it known-wonky?
15:17 cotto sounds exciting
15:17 moritz_ well, the 'time dependent' really comes from the testing
15:17 moritz_ because it always uses 'now' as one of the reference values
15:18 moritz_ and it's triggered in about one of 10 cases or so
15:18 moritz_ but I haven't got around to investigate it in detail
15:19 moritz_ and I don't want to skip it because we don't have many more time interval arithmetic tests
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15:29 colomon std: https://gist.github.com/852937
15:29 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter , (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/1joZnaM28B line 3:␤------> [32m$benchmark, $time) = $line.split(m/\s* ,[33m⏏[31m \s*/);[0m␤Couldn't find terminator / at /tmp/1joZnaM28B line 3:␤------>
15:29 p6eval ..[32m$benchmark…
15:29 colomon ah
15:29 colomon std++
15:30 * moritz_ knows why he wrote "split on ','" :-)
15:30 moritz_ rakudo: /,/
15:30 p6eval rakudo 9bca53: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "/,/"␤»
15:30 colomon std: https://gist.github.com/852937
15:30 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Variable $tie is not predeclared at /tmp/1BDCKpwEzr line 5:␤------> [32mchmarks{$benchmark}.push($rakudo => $tie[33m⏏[31m);[0m␤Function 'lines' needs parens to avoid gobbling block at /tmp/1BDCKpwEzr line 2:␤------> [32mfor lines[33m⏏[31m ->
15:30 p6eval ..$l…
15:31 * colomon apparently needs to get std working locally again
15:31 colomon std: https://gist.github.com/852937
15:31 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Function 'lines' needs parens to avoid gobbling block at /tmp/pOBeupqHRm line 2:␤------> [32mfor lines[33m⏏[31m -> $line {[0m␤Missing block (apparently gobbled by 'lines') at /tmp/pOBeupqHRm line 8:␤------> [32m<BOL>[33m⏏[31mfor
15:31 p6eval ..%benchmarks.key…
15:31 moritz_ for lines() -> $line
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15:33 colomon std: https://gist.github.com/852937
15:33 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 127m␤»
15:33 colomon ouch!
15:34 colomon just realized the trans-sprintf benchmark has actually gotten slower, not faster.  :(
15:37 jnthn :/
15:39 colomon more on that once I've got the graphs displaying.
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15:49 domidumont Hello. Is anyone here involved with packaging parrot or rakudo for Debian ? (I'm willing to help even if I'm don't have much tuit)
15:50 moritz_ domidumont: parrot people have been working on that, occasionally
15:50 moritz_ over in #parrot on irc.perl.org
15:50 moritz_ domidumont: there's a ports/debian directory in parrot which should contain all the necessary files, albeit a bit outdated
15:51 moritz_ domidumont: also don't miss docs/project/debian_packaging_guide.pod in the parrot repo
15:51 domidumont moritz_: ah, was this used to produce the current (outdated) package in Debian ?
15:51 colomon moritz_:  can you take a look at https://gist.github.com/852937 and see if there is anything obvious I'm doing wrong?  the result graph is pretty useless...
15:51 moritz_ domidumont: I think so
15:51 domidumont moritz_: ok. Thanks. I'll ask on #parrot channel for more information
15:52 colomon moritz_: resulting SVG is https://gist.github.com/852974
15:52 moritz_ colomon: values expects an array of arrays - are you passing that along?
15:52 colomon why an array of arrays?
15:52 colomon or, what is the array of arrays?
15:53 moritz_ wait, I was still thinking of stacked bars
15:53 moritz_ let me re-check
15:53 moritz_ (array of arrays because each data series should have one y value per x value)
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15:56 colomon what should the arrays look like, then?
15:56 moritz_ colomon: you'll need :values([@data.keys], ) or :values([[@data.keys]]) I think
15:56 colomon I thought I was passing a Y value to go with each label.
15:56 moritz_ that's what i would expect if it plotted only one data series per graph, ever
15:57 colomon with :values([[@data.keys]]) I get a Divide by zero error from SVG::Plot.
15:57 moritz_ it expects ([y1-for-x1, y1-for-x2, ...], [y2-for-x1, y2-for-x2, ...], ...)
15:59 moritz_ colomon: I can't really investigate now, but will later on if you also provide a data file
16:00 colomon I'll poke around at it a bit more, and then send you the data file if I don't make any progress.
16:01 colomon !!!
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16:02 colomon ah.
16:02 colomon :values([@data>>.value]), not >>.values
16:02 colomon duh.
16:02 moritz_ oh.
16:02 colomon bitten by p6
16:03 colomon 's urge to do something.
16:05 colomon hmmm... would just plain .values work there?
16:05 colomon nope.
16:07 moritz_ .values on an array returns the array (or a copy thereof)
16:08 colomon right
16:08 colomon that makes sense
16:09 colomon is it possible to put a label on the entire graph?
16:09 colomon and how do I embed the SVG in an HTML file?  ;)
16:09 moritz_ that would be a title
16:10 moritz_ <img src="path/to/graph.svg" />
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16:10 moritz_ there's also "real" embedding, but it requires xhtml, not html
16:10 colomon gotcha.
16:11 * moritz_ hopes colomon doesn't want IE support
16:11 colomon I need to get this stuff bundled up into a package and in the ecosystem, so people who are better at the graphics bits can hack on it.
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16:12 colomon can't inkscape convert SVG to PNG or something?
16:12 moritz_ it can
16:13 colomon what should I use as the package name for this?
16:13 moritz_ inkscape --export-png=target.png -D --file=input.svg
16:13 moritz_ Benchmark::Chart or so?
16:14 moritz_ or Benchmark::Plot # to keep consistent with SVG::Plot
16:14 colomon I was actually thinking of tossing smash's benchmark harness in there too.
16:14 colomon Benchmark::Plot would be simple and straightforward, though.  hmmm.
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16:27 Layla_91 Howdy world o/
16:27 jnthn Layla_91! \o/
16:27 Layla_91 jnthn: =)
16:27 jnthn Layla_91: Hope you're less feverish than last time I saw you here? :)
16:28 Layla_91 jnthn: yup.. now am so fresh and ready for some work B-)
16:28 Layla_91 jnthn: How's perl6 doing ? :D
16:29 jnthn Layla_91: yay! Glad you're better
16:30 jnthn Layla_91: Perl 6 is doing OK. Though I ddin't have enough hacking time recently. :(
16:30 jnthn Layla_91: Though on the up side, I'm writing some new slides. :)
16:31 Layla_91 jnthn: yay! :D I am so hungry for knowledge! :D I spent 3 days doing nothing in the hospital.. I hugged my laptop when came home! :D
16:31 jnthn Aww
16:32 jnthn Hospital sounds un-fun. :( At least you've got your laptop back now. :)
16:33 Layla_91 jnthn: yes :) but I have tons of pending work,,, as I Figuring out from the e-mails... :\
16:34 Layla_91 jnthn: And they are moving me to a PHP team... (they are taking away my Mac :'''( )
16:34 jnthn Oh noes!!! :(
16:35 Layla_91 jnthn: its ok I will buy one.. someday =)
16:36 Layla_91 jnthn: plus php is easier to me :)
16:37 jnthn :)
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16:39 Layla_91 jnthn: can you give me the link to your slides again? can't find my bookmarks :S
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16:40 Layla_91 jnthn: Somebody must put them on perl6 site... seriously :\
16:40 moritz_ Layla_91: how about you do it? :-)
16:41 Layla_91 moritz_: mmm.. Can I put my name and picture there too? :P
16:41 jnthn layls: http://www.jnthn.net/articles.shtml
16:41 jnthn Do we not have links to presentations and stuff on perl6.org already?
16:41 jnthn Maybe not. :)
16:42 jnthn Good idea though.
16:43 jnthn http://www.perl6.org/documentation/ could be a good place to link to a page of some good Perl 6 presentations to see.
16:44 Layla_91 http://www.jnthn.net seems cool :-) Like an entire library! :)
16:45 Layla_91 moritz_: can I really add content to the perl6 website?
16:46 jnthn Layla_91: http://pivo.jnthn.net/ is cool (and very slow loading) 'cus it's written in Perl 6. :)
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16:46 Layla_91 jnthn: omg looool! ^_^
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16:49 Layla_91 * Taking a dive into the slides..... back sooon.........
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16:55 Layla_91 jnthn: Russia not mentioned in photos :(
16:55 donri In Soviet Russia, photos mention you!
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16:57 Layla_91 donri: what do you mean?
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16:58 jnthn Layla_91: Plenty of Russia photos from http://travel.jnthn.net/ :-)
16:58 donri I mean only the meanest of things.
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16:58 jnthn Layla_91: Sure I've used a Russia photo in some talk :)
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16:59 jnthn If not, I promise to soon :P
16:59 sjn o/
17:00 sjn seen masak
17:00 aloha masak was last seen in #perl6 20 hours 48 mins ago saying "I can't believe we didn't have that one already. tadzik++".
17:00 sjn aloha: thanks! ^^
17:00 Layla_91 jnthn: jnthn++ :)
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17:01 * colomon tried to update his local git, and now has completely broken it.  :(
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17:28 moritz_ colomon: did you have any success with generating SVGs?
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17:28 colomon moritz_: yes
17:28 moritz_ \o/
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17:28 colomon but I've had very little success getting my script pushed to github.
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17:29 colomon currently refreshing my entire macports ecosystem in hopes of getting a working and reasonably-up-to-date version of git.
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17:41 dalek rakudo: 09461fc | moritz++ | / (3 files):
17:41 dalek rakudo: [build] Perl 5 cleanup
17:41 dalek rakudo:
17:41 dalek rakudo: * move read_config file to module
17:41 dalek rakudo: * remove parrot_ name parts
17:41 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/09461fc4d4
17:41 dalek rakudo: 191305f | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
17:41 dalek rakudo: bump PARROT_REVISON for testing
17:41 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/191305fe5a
17:41 dalek rakudo: 4e55077 | moritz++ | Configure.pl:
17:41 dalek rakudo: [build] if --gen-parrot-prefix is present, ignore all other possibly available parrot_config executables
17:41 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4e5507753b
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17:53 masak good evening, dear zebras.
17:54 masak tonight I'm committed -- not to mention dedicated -- to bring you a p5 review post.
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17:54 masak just because I like you so much, #perl6. :)
17:54 phenny masak: 14:31Z <colomon> tell masak Your svg module is still using done_testing.
17:54 phenny masak: 14:34Z <colomon> tell masak Never mind.
17:55 moritz_ \o/
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17:58 jnthn o/ masak
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18:09 moritz_ wow, Configure.pl and gen_parrot.pl use different mechanisms for reading config information from parrot
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18:16 jdhore moritz_, BTW, i don't know if you saw, but i believe bacek said that gms would probably not be the default GC with the parrot 3.2.0 release and that perhaps Rakudo should default to it in configure.....
18:16 tadzik heh, I'll have to re-revert my commit :)
18:16 PerlJam gms?
18:17 PerlJam oh
18:17 PerlJam generational mark sweep
18:17 PerlJam bacek++
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18:17 [Coke] jdhore: correct. if rakudo wants that, they should continue to specify it for --gen-parrot
18:18 [Coke] I believe current concensus is can't be default until after 3.3 (but by all means, use it now.)
18:18 PerlJam [Coke]: because of policy?
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18:22 [Coke] it's not a drop in replacement - you have to write more code in your project to safely use it.
18:22 [Coke] rakudo already has that code, but joe user doesn't.
18:22 PerlJam gotcha
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18:22 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
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18:29 Layla_91_ jnthn: are you still here?
18:29 moritz_ Layla_91_: (re perl6.org website) yes.
18:29 dalek joined #perl6
18:29 masak Layla_91_: I think jnthn went for a walk.
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18:30 Layla_91_ masak: hi! =)
18:30 masak Layla_91_: \o :)
18:30 Layla_91_ moritz_: how?
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18:31 moritz_ Layla_91_: first step: tell me your github ID
18:32 masak (zeroth step: get a github account)
18:32 moritz_ Layla_91_: then clone the perl6/perl6.org repo, apply and push your changes, wait.
18:32 moritz_ it's updated from source every 15 min or so
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18:33 PerlJam gotcha
18:33 Layla_91_ masak: (the real teacher.. :D ), moritz_: I will need to create an account, give me few minutes..
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18:33 PerlJam oops
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18:34 masak PerlJam: in Soviet Russia, I've got YOU.
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18:34 Layla_91_ masak: what is everybody talking about soviet russia? I can not understand the jokes.. :S this is second time for today..
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18:35 PerlJam Layla_91_: In soviet russia the jokes understand you.
18:35 moritz_ Layla_91_: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/w​iki/Russian_reversal_%28joke%29
18:36 masak Layla_91_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdot#Culture
18:36 masak also, autopun spotting on what PerlJam just said :)
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18:37 Layla_91_ kinda did not like the essence a lot.. Russia is both oppressive and bad :( I think america is the bad guys :P
18:38 Layla_91_ But sounds funny ^_^
18:38 moritz_ Layla_91_: that doesn't matter for jokes :-)
18:38 PerlJam Layla_91_: But we have Chuck Norris!
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18:39 Layla_91_ PerlJam: ah.. we have Yeltsin xD
18:39 masak Yeltsin is kinda badass.
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18:40 masak there's probably some law of Nature that prevents him from ever ending up in a fight with Chuck Norris.
18:41 Layla_91_ masak: hehehehe :D
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18:41 Layla_91_ Oh totally forgot! github! :P
18:42 moritz_ masak: repulsion of singularities!
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18:42 masak moritz_: that's probably it. if there were two singularities in the same place, it'd be a duality. :P
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18:50 jnthn Layla_91_: fear not, I'm back :P
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18:50 Layla_91_ jnthn: \o/
18:51 Layla_91_ jnthn: creating a github account based on the Mr.moritz_ request :P I needed to ask you something but maybe later today :)
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18:55 jnthn Layla_91_: yay...GitHub account = can hack on lots of Perl 6 projects \o/
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18:56 Layla_91_ moritz_: layla-91 =)
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18:58 moritz_ Layla_91_: added. Welcome!
18:58 robinsmidsrod joined #perl6
18:58 moritz_ oh I forgot, many people in the channel can add you via hugme
18:59 Layla_91_ moritz_: thanks =)
18:59 moritz_ ...except that hugme seems to have gone pinin' for the fjords...
18:59 Layla_91_ moritz_: now I understand nothing O_o .. pinin huh?!
19:00 moritz_ Layla_91_: "pining for the fjords" is like "dying"
19:00 Layla_91_ moritz_: undersood.. :)
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19:01 Layla_91_ Must have a nice avatar first ^_^
19:01 moritz_ Layla_91_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218 prominently featured here
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19:03 Layla_91_ moritz_: my dad used to watch this show :)
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19:06 Layla_91_ I like British Accent :) must get monty python DVDs :)
19:07 jnthn There's quite a few ways to have a British accent. :)
19:07 slavik1 Layla_91_: one of the 5 people was american
19:08 Layla_91_ slavik1: I am not that expert (since I am not american nor british) but I guess it is the british ones who speak more funny :)
19:08 slavik1 true
19:10 Layla_91_ jnthn: like what? I want to speak BRITISH! :D
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19:11 moritz_ Layla_91_: living in britain helps a lot, my deary
19:12 masak or looking at British sitcoms.
19:12 Layla_91_ moritz_: I wish I could.. :'(
19:13 Layla_91_ masak: you are great today! ^_^
19:13 jnthn Layla_91_: I have some cousins who speak "British" like me, but I find their accent decidedly hard to follow. Britsh accents can vary quite a lot. And lots of regional slang too, just for fun. :)
19:15 Layla_91_ jnthn: We had a customer from Ireland 2 months ago.. I think his accent was too different from british one.. but funnier! =)
19:15 jnthn Yes, they're fun, but often very nice to listen to. :)
19:16 moritz_ a thick Irish accent is *very* hard to understand
19:16 moritz_ I had a flat made in Scotland... quite impossible to understand
19:16 moritz_ i usually gave up three "excuse me?" iterations :-)
19:17 TiMBuS left #perl6
19:17 TiMBuS joined #perl6
19:17 Layla_91_ jnthn, moritz_: he kept making his voice louder and louder.. I guess he thought I am deaf not that I could not understand his accent :S
19:18 dual joined #perl6
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19:21 Layla_91_ ah... I have to create a wordpress or Gravatar.com account to have an avatar.. :\
19:21 Layla_91_ oh god I promissed someone to setup a joomla server for him and completely forgot.. !
19:21 Layla_91_ leaving!
19:21 Layla_91_ o/
19:23 jnthn Layla_91_: o/
19:24 Layla_91_ left #perl6
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20:07 masak hm. getting a strange error involving infix:<~>
20:07 Rotwang left #perl6
20:08 saaki joined #perl6
20:08 moritz_ die "strange error involving infix:<~>" ?
20:08 masak no, a multi dispatch failure.
20:09 masak if only I knew what the types of the operands were... :)
20:09 jnthn :/
20:09 masak someone should totally patch that error to say "you passed in ..."
20:09 jnthn That'd be...odd. Since ~ works on (Any,Any)
20:10 * colomon is still trying to get git working again on his system.  (Though there was a long nom break in there.)
20:10 moritz_ rakudo: say infix:<~>(Mu, 1)
20:10 p6eval rakudo 191305: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<~>'. Available candidates are:␤:(Any $x = { ... })␤:(Any $a, Any $b)␤␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/M4PLaGZ2b2␤»
20:10 masak I'm currently updating and rebuilting Parrot/Rakudo. see if the problem persists.
20:10 masak moritz_: that's the error.
20:10 frettled left #perl6
20:10 moritz_ so, a Mu involved?
20:10 masak but I was doing something totally innocent with a .substr and a literal string.
20:10 frettled joined #perl6
20:10 masak don't see where the Mu would come from.
20:11 moritz_ I remember substr out of range returning Mu or so
20:11 masak that's just... wrong.
20:11 moritz_ rakudo: say 'abc'.substr(5).perl
20:11 p6eval rakudo 191305: OUTPUT«Mu␤»
20:11 masak is there an RT ticket for that?
20:11 _twitch left #perl6
20:11 moritz_ I think so
20:11 masak moritz_++
20:11 masak that must be it, then.
20:11 jnthn What should it do?
20:12 moritz_ fail('substr out of range')
20:12 jnthn That'd make sense.
20:12 colomon rakudo: say infix:<~>(fail('substr out of range'), 1)
20:12 p6eval rakudo 191305:  ( no output )
20:12 jnthn masak: You should harrass somebody at a hackathon to help get the arg listing on errors implemented.
20:12 masak what does &fail return in a typed subroutine?
20:12 masak jnthn: oh, good idea.
20:13 jnthn masak: iirc, Failure is somehow always magically acceptable. Or something.
20:13 jnthn Otherwise failing wouold cause a type check error :/
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20:14 masak right.
20:14 masak so Failure is a bottom type, basically.
20:16 masak "PARROT VM: Could not load bytecodeNULL current PMC at 2 in thaw"
20:16 masak we're back to sucky error messages when Rakudo and Parrot versions are out-of-sync. :(
20:17 masak I'd like to see something like "You tried to use this HLL compiled for Parrot x.y.z, but this is Parrot i.j.k"
20:18 * colomon seems to have git version 1.7.4.1 installed on his MBP again!
20:18 colomon errr.... first time for that version, actually.
20:19 ruoso joined #perl6
20:20 colomon as a bonus, it looks like I've managed to make perl 5.12 my default!  \o/
20:20 * colomon wonders how much stuff he broke in the process....
20:21 colomon moritz_: are you fixing the substr returns Mu bug?  it certainly appears to be LHF...
20:22 Rotwang joined #perl6
20:23 moritz_ colomon: I fear that the might might make things worse, considering how crappy the failure implementation is
20:23 colomon but will you let yourself be governed by your fears?  ;)
20:23 moritz_ yes
20:26 * masak is reminded of the lyrics of Deteriorata: "... Give up."
20:26 masak ooh, and Deteriorata is on Spotify! \o/
20:27 masak [Coke]: ping
20:32 VXZ joined #perl6
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20:41 colomon moritz_: https://github.com/colomon/Benchmark-Plot
20:47 colomon now in ecosystem, too.
20:47 masak colomon++
20:48 dalek ecosystem: 49ae828 | (Solomon Foster)++ | projects.list:
20:48 dalek ecosystem: Add Benchmark::Plot.
20:48 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/49ae828f9e
20:48 colomon It's graphs are pretty crude, but it's a start.
20:48 colomon *Its
20:49 lamstyle_ joined #perl6
20:49 masak rakudo: my $time-difference = now - now; say $time-difference.fmt("%s")
20:49 p6eval rakudo 191305: OUTPUT«Method 'fmt' not found for invocant of class 'Duration'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/pDKYRoRLvu␤»
20:49 masak yup. still hating Duration.
20:49 masak can we please kill it now?
20:49 masak it's basically a cumbersome Num.
20:52 colomon Regardless of whether it should be killed (I've no dog in that fight), shouldn't that work anyway?
20:52 masak depends if it's Cool, I guess.
20:52 colomon but it should be, shouldn't it?
20:53 masak I don't think the spec has an opinion about that.
20:53 colomon I thought almost all builtin types were supposed to be.
20:53 masak I'm not sure where that point of view comes from :)
20:53 masak in my mind, only a select few builtin classes derive from Cool.
20:54 masak they're common, yes. but they're not that many.
20:54 jnthn They're common in core but uncommon in userspace.
20:54 masak I wouldn't call Str and Int uncommon in userspace...
20:54 jnthn I meant declarationally.
20:55 masak oh, agreed.
20:55 masak but I could definitely see someone inheriting from Cool in userspace, too.
20:56 bluescreen10 left #perl6
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20:59 colomon Wow, the spec is actually completely silent on the question.
21:01 tadzik ~~
21:01 masak tadzik! \o/
21:01 masak tadzik: you know what? this time tomorrow, we'll have met. :)
21:02 ruoso_ joined #perl6
21:02 tadzik yay! I'm looking forward :)
21:02 tadzik I need to pack my things and ponies
21:02 masak and zebras.
21:02 masak I have a whole compartment in my bag just for the zebras.
21:03 tadzik oh my, my wannabe-ISP is hilarous
21:04 tadzik have I told the story of the ISP who isn't able to connect the cables for 2 monts?
21:05 flussence_ pff, I spent 6 months with my connection dropping every 2-3 minutes because mine wouldn't admit the problem was on their end
21:05 tadzik more than a month after breaking the deal (accepted by both sides) I get a bill for .85 PLN (~20 euro cents)
21:05 ruoso left #perl6
21:05 tadzik to care or not to care...
21:06 dalek tpfwiki: (chris denorch)++ | http://www.perlfoundation.​org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6
21:06 masak I'm benchmarking the p5 solutions now.
21:08 plobsing joined #perl6
21:09 colomon \o/
21:10 masak colomon: interesting. fox's solution is the naivest. it beats yours for the small string lengths, but your solution gets back at it for the large ones.
21:11 colomon That's actually a pretty common thing with algorithms, no?
21:11 masak :P
21:12 masak well, after having just run yours I figgered that wasn't what I was going to see.
21:12 masak https://gist.github.com/853570
21:12 * colomon seems to recall that bubble sort is the best sort for arrays of length 4...
21:12 tadzik oh wow
21:13 * colomon has no idea what that gist means.
21:13 masak looks like fox's solution is to be preferred up to string lengths of about 50 chars.
21:13 masak colomon: oh, sorry. first column is length, of both strings.
21:13 masak second column is whether there is a common substring at all.
21:14 masak (I try both without and with a common substring for all lengths)
21:14 colomon huh.  I'm surprised mine is so much slower when there is a common substring
21:14 masak third column is run time in seconds.
21:14 colomon in the 320 case.
21:14 masak colomon: that might just be GC, mind.
21:14 masak I should run it once with the Y/N reversed.
21:14 colomon I'll bet I'm doing something grotesquely inefficient, actually.
21:15 masak or that :P
21:15 masak yeah, the difference is a bit too large to be ascribed to just GC, actually.
21:15 masak but I'll still do the reverse test, I think.
21:17 ruoso joined #perl6
21:18 masak chromatic++ # http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2011/03/​why-modern-perl-teaches-oo-with-moose.html
21:19 colomon I'm not sure exactly what, but I'm betting that's it.  Once I had the SuffixTree built, I didn't really look too closely at the efficiency of building substrings from it.
21:20 ruoso_ left #perl6
21:21 masak fwiw, fox's solution exhibits the same increase even for the same lengths.
21:24 plobsing left #perl6
21:25 colomon huh.  I guess I should actually time the bits before jumping to conclusions.
21:28 colomon That is to say, I don't know the effect duplicate substrings has on SuffixTree construction time.
21:29 masak oh yes. suffix trees definitely beat the naive algorithm.
21:29 masak I'm relieved to see that.
21:30 ruoso left #perl6
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21:36 moritz_ \o/ my first contribution to a scientific conference has been accepted
21:36 colomon moritz_++
21:37 takadonet left #perl6
21:37 masak yay. moritz_++
21:37 jnthn moritz_++
21:37 tadzik great!
21:37 tadzik congratulations!
21:38 moritz_ thanks
21:41 masak argh. these benchmarks are taking too long. won't be able to finish today.
21:41 masak oh well. at least now I have an approach.
21:43 tadzik masak: have you checked the weather maybe?
21:44 masak tadzik: no...?
21:44 tadzik just asking
21:44 colomon masak: how are you getting your two strings to compare?
21:44 masak colomon: hold on, I'll nopaste you the data-generation script.
21:44 colomon danke
21:45 hercynium left #perl6
21:46 masak https://gist.github.com/853570
21:47 colomon perfect
21:48 colomon hmmm... you realize this may not be the most realistic test.
21:48 colomon ?
21:51 masak sure.
21:51 masak I'm mostly interested in the general trend.
21:51 masak but, hm. seems I'm hitting memory/swapping considerations at the upper end. :/
21:51 colomon ah, the joys of Rakudo!
21:52 masak :/
21:52 jnthn Rakud'oh!
21:52 moritz_ :-)
21:52 * jnthn is working on his talk :)
21:54 masak interesting that the naive solution had swapping issues, but colomon's with lots of objects didn't, not as much at least.
21:54 masak that suggests that reducing runtime of medium-long programs could be an end in itself :)
21:54 colomon how is the naive solution implemented?
21:54 colomon I mean, broadly speaking.
21:55 masak out loop over chars of one string. inner loop over chars of other.
21:55 Mowah joined #perl6
21:55 masak from those two positions, check how many from that point forward are shared.
21:55 colomon actually using the chars, or some sort of sub-strings?
21:55 masak compare with maximum so far.
21:55 jnthn That...should be memory cheap...
21:55 masak it should.
21:56 jnthn wtf.
21:56 colomon we may be finding rakudo glitches here, too...
21:56 * jnthn wonders if we're accidentally keeping things around when iterating that we shouldn't be.
21:56 colomon oooo, yeah, if the inner loop's iterator hung around, that would be beyond ugly....
21:58 masak fox's statistics online: https://gist.github.com/853570
21:58 masak I'll stop there for tonight. will probably have some time to continue tomorrow.
21:59 jnthn colomon: A quick test produces no evidence for that, but I agree, it would be.
21:59 jnthn Will have to look more closely.
22:00 dalek nqp/lexical-setting: a32c5f9 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Compiler.pm:
22:00 dalek nqp/lexical-setting: Make sure if we try to use a setting twice it'll work out.
22:00 dalek nqp/lexical-setting: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a32c5f944b
22:01 masak 'night, #perl6.
22:01 colomon o\
22:01 masak left #perl6
22:01 tadzik see you tomorrow :)
22:02 jnthn Yay, Holland Hackathon \o/
22:02 mberends \o/
22:02 jnthn Are we all meeting up at the airport?
22:03 tadzik I'm just trying to figure that out :)
22:03 jnthn tadzik: What time you land?
22:04 tadzik jnthn: the ticket says 18:55
22:04 jnthn Ah, OK
22:04 jnthn masak and I get in at 21:00
22:04 tadzik you'll have a Greeting Comitee then :)
22:05 jnthn \o/
22:05 * colomon is kind of jealous.  :)
22:05 * tadzik is kind of excited
22:07 Chillance joined #perl6
22:10 hanekomu joined #perl6
22:11 slavik1 wait, so you are all going to code while getting high?
22:11 slavik1 I am diff in the wrong job
22:12 jnthn Yes. We're going to smoke LOADS of weed and then, like, commit man!
22:13 PerlJam jnthn: you're getting married?!?
22:13 jnthn ...weed is a marriage ritual?
22:13 PerlJam jnthn: no, but committing is.
22:13 * colomon can't say much of anything after several cider-fueled hacking runs this winter.
22:14 jnthn Thanks to Rakudo, I've commited hundreds of times. :P
22:16 * [Coke] wonder what masak wanted.
22:16 coldhead joined #perl6
22:23 colomon rakudo: say time
22:23 p6eval rakudo 191305: OUTPUT«1299191029␤»
22:23 colomon rakudo: say time
22:23 p6eval rakudo 191305: OUTPUT«1299191038␤»
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22:41 colomon phenny: tell masak My timings runs using your data-generation script are showing very significant differences from one test run to another.  For 80, for instance, I've gotten average (N, Y) runs of (10.8, 14.2), (9.4, 10.8), and (9.6, 11.4).  Maybe difference has to do with different random strings?
22:41 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
22:51 coldhead left #perl6
22:51 mberends joined #perl6
22:52 tom_tsuruhara joined #perl6
22:52 sjohnson rakudo: say 3
22:52 p6eval rakudo 191305: OUTPUT«3␤»
22:52 sjohnson rakudo: say (undef // 4)."pig"
22:52 p6eval rakudo 191305: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of undef as a value; in Perl 6 please use something more specific:␤  Mu (the "most undefined" type object),␤ an undefined type object such as Int,␤  Nil as an empty list,␤  !*.defined as a matcher or method,␤     Any:U as a type constraint␤     or
22:52 p6eval ..fail() as a fail…
22:52 sjohnson rakudo: say (undef // 4)~"pig"
22:52 p6eval rakudo 191305: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of undef as a value; in Perl 6 please use something more specific:␤  Mu (the "most undefined" type object),␤ an undefined type object such as Int,␤  Nil as an empty list,␤  !*.defined as a matcher or method,␤     Any:U as a type constraint␤     or
22:52 p6eval ..fail() as a fail…
22:53 sjohnson defined-or in perl6? :3
22:53 tadzik please read the error message :)
22:56 sjohnson rakudo: say (nil // 4)~"pig"
22:56 p6eval rakudo 191305: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Null regex not allowed at line 22, near " 4)~\"pig\""␤»
22:56 sjohnson argh, i've forgotten how to concat strings in the perl6 world. i'm not long for this [perl6] world
22:57 tadzik owait
22:57 tadzik rakudo: say (Nil // 4) ~ "pig"
22:57 p6eval rakudo 191305: OUTPUT«4pig␤»
22:57 tadzik rakudo: say (nil // 4) ~ "pig"
22:57 p6eval rakudo 191305: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Null regex not allowed at line 22, near " 4) ~ \"pig"␤»
22:58 tadzik std: say (nil // 4) ~ "pig"
22:58 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null regex not allowed at /tmp/3ti6xoF7Gw line 1:␤------> [32msay (nil //[33m⏏[31m 4) ~ "pig"[0m␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/3ti6xoF7Gw line 1:␤------> [32msay (nil // [33m⏏[31m4) ~ "pig"[0m␤    expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤
22:58 p6eval ..infix or meta…
22:58 tadzik std: nil
22:58 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'nil' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 117m␤»
22:58 plobsing joined #perl6
22:58 tadzik I wonder why does it parse as a regex
22:59 jnthn tadzik: nil is parsed as a list op
22:59 jnthn tadzik: That means we're expecting a term after it, not an operator.
23:00 risou left #perl6
23:00 tadzik jnthn: so isn't nil an undeclared routine?
23:00 jnthn tadzik: yes
23:01 jnthn tadzik: any time you have "x y" and x isn't a known term, it treats it as a call to x and parses y as a term.
23:01 jnthn And we call x a list op in this case, to make ourselves feel it's not a violation of TTIAR. ;-)
23:03 tadzik :)
23:06 hanekomu left #perl6
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23:09 sjohnson i broketed it.
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