Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-03-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:14 acegrimm aye
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03:42 ajs evening all
03:43 sorear good * #perl6
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04:12 sorear hello ajs
04:13 cognominal does perl 6 supports what coffeescript calls destructuring assignment. It can be seen as a form of assignement on pattern matching.  http://jashkenas.github.com/coffee-script/
04:14 cognominal it is a feature of javascript harmony btw.
04:15 sorear rakudo: my [$x, $y] := [1,2]; say $y
04:15 p6eval rakudo e3bd9a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed my at line 22, near "[$x, $y] :"␤»
04:16 sorear rakudo: my :([$x, $y]) := [1,2]; say $y
04:16 p6eval rakudo e3bd9a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed my at line 22, near ":([$x, $y]"␤»
04:16 sorear rakudo: (-> [$x, $y] { say $y })([1,2]);
04:16 p6eval rakudo e3bd9a: OUTPUT«2␤»
04:16 sorear yes, but the parsing isn't fully implemented
04:17 cognominal oh, I remember now. I already bug jnthn  on that
04:17 sorear (I haven't actually looked at the link, I'm working from the Haskell definition of destructuring binders)
04:17 cognominal and indeed, I was thinking haskell the first time I asked
04:18 cognominal for lack of a Perl 6 with a javascript backend, coffeescript is pretty nice.
04:19 cognominal and destructuring is pretty nice when extracting data from the DOM
04:20 sorear perl 6 with a javascript backend would have far, far too much overhead
04:20 sorear perl 6 is not designed to run on a specific VM
04:20 sorear it doesn't elegantly map to Javascript primitives the way Javascript-based languages do
04:22 cognominal When I reread myself I realize I speak english like Ali G. :(
04:23 sorear Who?
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04:24 sorear Don't be so hard on yourself.  Your English is better than quite a few "native" speakers I know
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04:25 cognominal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOIM1_xOSro  #  ali g interviews noam chomsky
04:25 JimmyZ good afternoom, #perl6
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04:37 sorear hello JimmyZ
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05:01 jdhore OK, I am currently working on the release of Rakudo 2011.03
05:04 PerlJam jdhore++
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05:20 JimmyZ hi JimmyZ
05:20 JimmyZ er, hi sorear
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05:48 mberends colomon: thanks, replied to Aaron Sherman's comment :)
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05:52 ajs oh?
05:55 mberends (the reply must be moderated before it appears publicly)
05:55 ajs ah
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05:55 ajs should I just keep reloading or does someone want to fill me in? ;)
05:55 mberends commute &
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05:59 ajs So, I've been  working on that... I found one bug that I think was causing some undue speedup (still getting right answers for the given inputs, but still a bug).
05:59 ajs But it's still performing well
06:04 ajs yeah, since I fixed the bug, I'm no longer beating colomon, but I'm still scaling decently.
06:10 jdhore Are any rakudo people around?
06:14 jdhore moritz_, please help
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06:58 colomon jdhore: what's up?
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06:58 jdhore I've got a failing test and i'm not sure what to do with it
06:59 jdhore Test Summary Report
06:59 jdhore -------------------
06:59 jdhore t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/instants-and-durations.t       (Wstat: 0 Tests: 13 Failed: 1)
06:59 jdhore Failed test:  13
06:59 colomon that's okay, it's been an intermittent failure for a while
07:00 jdhore so just ignore it?
07:00 colomon yes
07:00 jdhore OK
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07:06 dalek rakudo: e70f27d | jdhore++ | / (3 files):
07:06 dalek rakudo: [release] Add announcement, update release gude and add myself to
07:06 dalek rakudo: CREDITS.
07:06 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e70f27d6cd
07:06 dalek rakudo: 5e60355 | jdhore++ | VERSION:
07:06 dalek rakudo: [release] bump VERSION
07:06 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5e603555a2
07:19 jdhore whoo
07:19 jdhore Rakudo 2011.03 release complete!!!!
07:19 ajs Wow, grats!
07:20 jdhore thanks
07:22 colomon \o/
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07:32 colomon moritz_: Test 13 in S02-builtin_data_types/instants-and-durations.t isn't valid, at least as things are currently implemented in Rakudo.  $t1 - $t0 uses Real.Rat internally, which is only accurate to 1e-6.  So there's no reason to expect that $t0 + ($t1 - $t0) will equal $t1 exactly.
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07:53 moritz_ colomon: I think the test should be modified to allow a diff of 1e-6 or so
07:54 colomon moritz_: IMO, it should probably use is_approx and call .x on both sides.
07:58 moritz_ or use rats consistently
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08:17 tadzik hello
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08:19 moritz_ jdhore++ # rakudo release
08:19 jdhore moritz_, thanks, dude
08:20 moritz_ jdhore: how did you find the release process?
08:21 moritz_ any difficulties or time drains?
08:22 jdhore Pretty easy, actually, the most annoying part was waiting for all the tests in "make stresstest" to run...I have 8-cores, but they didn't parallelize (i didn't try make -j8 stresstest though, so that would fix my only annoyance if that is possible)
08:23 moritz_ jdhore: ah, TEST_JOBS=8 and a sufficiently new Perl 5 Test::Harness would have helped (see README)
08:23 jdhore ah
08:24 jdhore I'd love to do it again though
08:26 moritz_ feel free to add your name to docs/release_guide.pod
08:27 tadzik btw, didn't mberends appear twice in the announcement?
08:28 jdhore tadzik, I don't think so, though he may have once by nick and once by real name
08:28 moritz_ such things happen
08:28 tadzik yeah, that's what I mean. There's Martin Berends and there's martin :)
08:28 jdhore nope, there's a martin and Martin Berends
08:29 jdhore ah, I figured that may have been a different martin which is why i left it :)
08:29 tadzik yeah. For me the hardest part was probably figuring out who is who in the contributors.pl output :)
08:30 jdhore I think i'll go for my birth month (May) for the next release, but I could do April if no one volunteers by the time we near the release date.
08:31 moritz_ jdhore++
08:31 moritz_ good plan
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08:34 dalek rakudo: d8e5dec | jdhore++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
08:34 dalek rakudo: Add myself as the release manager for the May release.
08:34 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d8e5dec1bf
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08:49 ajs BBC headline: "Google buys Parrot to aid YouTube"
08:50 ajs ;-)
08:50 ajs http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12757153
08:55 jdhore :D
08:55 tadzik :)
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09:09 eso4g3_ soy gayyy
09:11 jdhore moritz_, do only R* releases get announced on rakudo.org? I just noticed that nothing was ever posted about 2011.02
09:11 moritz_ jdhore: yes, only R* releases
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09:11 jdhore ah
09:11 moritz_ people confuse compiler and distribution releases
09:12 moritz_ so we make the compiler releases less public
09:12 jdhore Yeah, makes sense.
09:12 eso4g3 my mother fuck your father
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09:13 tadzik moritz_, can you?
09:13 jdhore moritz_, wow, looking at the download stats of R and R*, that's...yeah...Pretty apparent :P
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09:13 tadzik oh, nevermind
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11:18 tadzik flussence_: could https://github.com/flussence/p6-misc/blob/master/indent.p6#L53 be just our Str multi method indent(0) ?
11:18 moritz_ tadzik: nope
11:18 tadzik that's not the same, yeah
11:18 moritz_ indent(0)  boils down to (Int $ where 0)
11:19 moritz_ not to  ($ as Int where 0)
11:19 tadzik so it protects us from indent("foo")
11:19 flussence_ yeah, I tried most of the easy-looking things already
11:19 moritz_ rakudo: multi f($ as Int where 0) { say "yes" }; f "a"
11:19 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«yes␤»
11:20 moritz_ flussence_: that's what you could use, if you don't like verbosity :-)
11:20 moritz_ rakudo: multi f($ where 0) { say "yes" }; f "a"
11:20 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«yes␤»
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11:20 moritz_ works too, since smart-matching against a number automatically coerces
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11:22 moritz_ TiMBuS: could you please open a new pull request for your second IO::Socket::INET iteration patch?
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11:27 TiMBuS moritz_, i guess so
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11:32 TiMBuS do you want me to merge it into a single patch or something?
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11:33 moritz_ that would make the review easier, yes
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11:36 moritz_ rakudo: class dice { has $.eyes = (1..20).pick }; say dice.new.eyes
11:36 TiMBuS well its probably just easier to compare the entire file before and after, in this case heh. but alright
11:36 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«15␤»
11:36 moritz_ rakudo: class dice { has $eyes = (1..20).pick }; say dice.new.eyes
11:36 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«Method 'eyes' not found for invocant of class 'dice'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/sWvoOd4yqZ␤»
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11:48 TiMBuS ok moritz_ done. had a bit of trouble with git
11:48 TiMBuS its all good now
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11:50 TiMBuS but if you dodnt already know, you dont generally need a second pull request for the same branch. any new commits i make go into the topic
11:54 tadzik how far is this from being spec-conformant?
11:56 moritz_ tadzik: a spec change away :-)
11:57 tadzik hah :)
11:57 tadzik I kinda expected that answer
11:57 moritz_ I don't even know if there's a spec
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11:57 moritz_ I tend to ignore much of the IO specs
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12:02 simon__ Hey. I have some questions regarding the whatever star.
12:03 tadzik go on
12:03 simon__ I understand it's a shortcut to make a closure
12:03 simon__ but sometimes it doesn't work like expected
12:03 simon__ for instance with the range operator
12:03 moritz_ simon__: it does't always construct a closure, some operators are special-cased
12:04 moritz_ for examply  my $x = *; assign a Whatever to $x, not construct a closure that assigns the argument to $x
12:04 moritz_ rakudo: say (1..*).max
12:04 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
12:04 simon__ i see
12:05 simon__ what about inside the indexing brackets?
12:05 moritz_ in particular =, :=, .., ... and comma are special-cased
12:05 moritz_ (and maybe more)
12:05 simon__ seems like it refers to the itemcount there?
12:05 moritz_ simon__: indexing brackets are just a shortcut for a method call, they don't imply any special syntax
12:06 moritz_ @a[*] just passes a Whatever object to the postcircumfix:<[ ]> method
12:06 simon__ but you can do something like this: my @a = 1..5; say @a[1 .. *-1]
12:06 moritz_ simon__: you can, because - binds tigher than ..
12:06 moritz_ so * - 1 is a closure
12:06 moritz_ and thus 1 .. *-1 becomes a closure too
12:07 moritz_ even if 1 .. * does not
12:07 moritz_ (confusing, I know)
12:07 simon__ so [] can take a function as argument?
12:07 moritz_ yes
12:07 moritz_ rakudo: say (1, 2, 3).[-> $x { say $x; $x - 1} ]
12:07 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«3␤3␤»
12:07 simon__ i've also tried something like @a[1..*] which doesn't work. is this a bug?
12:07 moritz_ rakudo: say <a b >.[-> $x { say $x; $x - 1} ]
12:07 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«2␤b␤»
12:07 TiMBuS thats why [1..*] currently goes forever in rakudo..
12:08 moritz_ simon__: yes, that should work too, but doesn't
12:08 moritz_ (known bug, and probably not easy to solve)
12:08 TiMBuS i remember trying to patch that
12:08 TiMBuS you gotta rewrite Range or add a parse rule
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12:09 moritz_ simon__++ # asking good questions
12:09 simon__ if you give [] a function that takes multiple arguments, does it just plug in the itemcount for every one of them?
12:09 simon__ thanks ;)
12:09 moritz_ simon__: I think so, yes
12:09 moritz_ rakudo: say <a b c>.[* - *]
12:09 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«a␤»
12:09 moritz_ yes, it does :-)
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12:12 tadzik rakudo: say *-*
12:12 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«_block131␤»
12:13 moritz_ rakudo: say (*-*).signature.perl
12:13 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«_block131␤»
12:13 moritz_ oh ouch
12:13 moritz_ rakudo: say (my $ = (*-*)).signature.perl
12:13 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«:(;; Mu $x1, Mu $x2)␤»
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12:23 simon__ when @a[1..*] is fixed, is it gonna do @a[1 .. +*] or @a[1 .. *-1]?
12:23 moritz_ the latter (ie no trailing Any)
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12:32 moritz_ TiMBuS: I'll apply your patch when I get home, and fix LWP::Simple afterwards
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12:53 simon__ how come this works? @a[*-5 .. *]
12:53 simon__ shouldn't *-5 .. * make a closure that takes one argument and makes a sequence from that argument - 5 to infinity?
12:54 * moritz_ has no idea
12:54 tadzik rakudo: say (*-5..*).perl
12:54 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«_block131␤»
12:54 tadzik superb
12:55 tadzik rakudo: say Range.new( from => *-5, to => *).perl
12:55 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«too many named arguments: 2 passed, 0 used␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/rkIibbM11f␤»
12:55 tadzik rakudo: say Range.new(*-5, *).perl
12:55 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«{ ... }..Inf␤»
12:55 tadzik rakudo: say Range.new(*-5, *).Num
12:56 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
12:57 [Coke] ~~
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13:43 moritz_ brainstorming session! What project ideas could we offer for GSOC students?
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13:44 flussence_ Improving printf-ish stuff?
13:44 moritz_ POD parser in rakudo is one
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13:45 flussence_ rakudo: say printf('%2$s', 4, 3);
13:45 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«Not enough arguments supplied for the given format string␤  in 'Cool::sprintf' at line 2754:CORE.setting␤  in 'sprintf' at line 2788:CORE.setting␤  in 'IO::printf' at line 5575:CORE.setting␤  in 'printf' at line 5789:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line
13:45 p6eval ..22:/tmp/L65RXhNixk␤»
13:45 moritz_ is that supposed to work? :-)
13:45 flussence_ apart from the first two words being obviously wrong... :)
13:46 flussence_ it should do the same as what perl5 does
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13:53 moritz_ other project ideas?
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13:55 moritz_ modules that badly need porting? infrastructure tasks?
13:56 moritz_ tadzik: do you have some TODOs in Panda that would make a good GSOC project?
14:00 flussence_ would be nice if it was easier to relocate a rakudo --gen-parrot install
14:01 moritz_ that's mostly a parrot task, not a rakudo one
14:01 flussence_ or at least so the result of "make install" will keep working while I'm recompiling it...
14:01 moritz_ it does
14:01 moritz_ ... if you recompile into a different location :-)
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14:03 tadzik moritz_: oh, I guess whatever's on my mind I'll make it myself before GSoC starts :)
14:04 tadzik maybe there's a task about creating an entire infrastructure, to CPAN and beyond :)
14:06 tadzik besides, I'm probably going to apply too
14:07 moritz_ \o/
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14:14 tadzik so I'm quite yooking forward to task ideas, as jnthn's one, being awesome, seems out of my skills range
14:15 moritz_ does Pod6 parsing in rakudo sound saner to you?
14:16 tadzik I don't find that one insane :) But Pod parsind seems doable
14:16 tadzik or the .WHY things
14:16 moritz_ well, the two are related
14:17 tadzik aye
14:17 moritz_ you need to parse the Pod to attach it as .WHY
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14:25 flussence_ (if someone writes a Pod parser, I'll write a pod2html5 thing for it)
14:26 moritz_ web tools: cookie jar, HTTP request and response, ...
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14:28 donri isn't .WHY supposed to be unparsed?
14:28 moritz_ rakudo: sub f(::Int $x) { say Int.WHAT }; f("Foo")
14:28 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
14:28 moritz_ rakudo: sub f(::Int $x) { say Int.WHAT }; f("Foo"); say Int.WHAT
14:28 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«Str()␤Int()␤»
14:29 * moritz_ found a way to lexically rebind types :-)
14:29 moritz_ std: sub f(::Int $x) { say Int.WHAT };
14:29 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  $x is declared but not used at /tmp/bGNp2OxR8q line 1:␤------> [32msub f(::Int [33m⏏[31m$x) { say Int.WHAT };[0m␤ok 00:01 122m␤»
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15:00 tadzik moritz_: lokking at http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2011/03/msg170045.html isn't the project ideas period over?
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15:01 moritz_ tadzik: notreally; it just seems too late to change the URL that's submitted to google
15:02 moritz_ tadzik: adding project ideas only becomes worseless once tasks are accepted/rejected
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15:09 ajs Just had an interesting bug. Line of code used to contain "$a<foo>+$a<bar>". I made the two lookups local variables, but left one ">" so the code became: "$foo>+$bar" ... damn that was hard to find.
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15:10 moritz_ rakudo: my $foo; my $bar; $foo>+$bar
15:10 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/jHkN43mavW␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric context  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/jHkN43mavW␤»
15:11 moritz_ rakudo: my $foo = 1; my $bar = 2; $foo>+$bar
15:11 p6eval rakudo d8e5de:  ( no output )
15:11 moritz_ rakudo: my $foo = 1; my $bar = 2; say $foo>+$bar
15:11 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
15:11 moritz_ ajs: there are reasons why I recommend whitespace around infix operators
15:12 ajs Yeah, I have an old habit of doing things like "if $a+$b == $c+$d" so that the two sides of the comparison are clear. I think I'm going to have to break that habit in Perl6....
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15:18 ajs I think I'm going to take on writing a clone of Python's argparse for P6... I've always thought it had a lot going for it, but there are a couple things I wish had been designed very differently.
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15:19 flussence_ rakudo: say [==] ([+] 2, 3), ([+] 1, 4)
15:19 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
15:19 ajs What is that, RP6N?
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15:30 arnsholt ajs: Perl 6 has quite powerful argument parsing built-in as well
15:30 ajs I'm just interested in playing with an alternate approach is all
15:31 arnsholt That's cool as well. Just in case you were looking for a Getopt for Perl 6 =)
15:33 ajs One thing I like about argparse is that it's equally at home with something like the svn/git model (cmd options subcmd options) as it is with traditional unixish command-lines (cmd options rest)
15:34 ajs It does this by treating the command-line like a function call, breaking it down into positional and named parameters.
15:34 moritz_ that's something that MAIN can't really do
15:35 moritz_ it can dispatch based on a string literal
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15:35 moritz_ but it can't distinguish general options from options to a subcommand
15:37 ajs Anyway, I'll be toying with that later. Work now.
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16:08 TimToady it would be fairly easy to preprocess the args into a form acceptable to MAIN, and the MAIN mechanism is designed to make such preprocessing easy, since the whole script runs first
16:09 moritz_ so it would just modify @*ARGS ?
16:09 TimToady sure
16:09 TimToady that's why MAIN is called from the end of the script
16:10 TimToady might have to provide a way to modify USAGE though...
16:10 moritz_ there is one already :-)
16:11 TimToady making sure that one can call the standard USAGE and massage that message
16:12 TimToady maybe viewing a user-defined USAGE as some kind of a wrapper around the standard one
16:12 moritz_ well, according to current spec you can just use $?USAGE and massage it before printing it
16:12 TimToady okay
16:13 moritz_ rakudo doesn't provide that yet, but it should be quite possible to do
16:13 TimToady though there's something wrongish about that, since $? means a compile-time constant, and you couldn't know its value till the end of the file
16:14 TimToady $?USAGE would have to imply a level of indirection to mean "the value it will have at CHECK time"
16:14 moritz_ sub USAGE { print massage $?USAGE }
16:15 moritz_ of course we could have a   my $*?USAGE = $?UAGE; in the setting implied, saving you the hassle to actually the print yourself
16:15 moritz_ but IMHO that's overkill
16:15 TimToady alternately, maybe there's some way we can finesse MAIN parsing to allow application of destructuring to a field of options
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16:16 TimToady sub MAIN ('command', { :$foo, :$bar }, 'subcommand', :$baz) {...}
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16:16 TimToady but then you have to copy/paste all those, which is a violation of DRY
16:17 moritz_ TimToady: and jnthn would strangle you :-)
16:18 TimToady or, we just baldly state that if the sigs contain a %hash, that's a subfield of switches managed positionally
16:19 TimToady or we provide some way of saying 'don't treat subsequent switch fiels as named parameters yet'
16:19 TimToady so it can be deferred to a submain function
16:19 moritz_ maybe abuse ;; for that?
16:20 TimToady or \$capture
16:20 TimToady or |$capture
16:21 moritz_ std: sub f($x, \$c) { }
16:21 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  $x is declared but not used at /tmp/VwNYtNw8rd line 1:␤------> [32msub f([33m⏏[31m$x, \$c) { }[0m␤  $c is declared but not used at /tmp/VwNYtNw8rd line 1:␤------> [32msub f($x, \[33m⏏[31m$c) { }[0m␤ok 00:01 120m␤»
16:21 moritz_ rakudo: sub f($x, \$c) { say $x }; f 1, 2, 3, 4, :foo
16:21 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 4 but expected 2␤  in 'f' at line 1:/tmp/DliJYJLMMU␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/DliJYJLMMU␤»
16:22 TimToady something like that, but allow named params to be harvested before binding the remainder to $c
16:22 TimToady rakudo: sub f($x, |$c) { say $x }; f 1, 2, 3, 4, :foo
16:22 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:22 TimToady yeah, |, not \
16:22 moritz_ rakudo: sub f($x, |$c) { say $x; say $c.perl }; f 1, 2, 3, 4, :foo
16:23 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«1␤\(2, 3, 4, "foo" => Bool::True)␤»
16:23 moritz_ \o/
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16:23 TimToady but can you get at --foo if it's before?
16:23 moritz_ why not?
16:23 moritz_ oh
16:23 TimToady more importantly, distingish pre-foo from post-foo
16:23 moritz_ I know why not
16:24 moritz_ positional before named, and all that
16:24 moritz_ seems that argument preprocessing is easier :-)
16:25 TimToady or a rule that turns embedded switch fields into a {...}
16:26 TimToady but only if the sigs have a {...} subfield
16:26 TimToady or a %hash subfield
16:27 TimToady could even be %*GLOBALOPTS as a parameter
16:31 * TimToady is now thinking about protos that preprocess for their multis...
16:32 TimToady not sure {*} gives us enough rope to rewrite the arguments though...
16:33 TimToady won't fly unless proto MAIN can modify the args it feeds to {*}
16:34 TimToady also, won't help if the switches have already been denatured before the proto sees it
16:37 TimToady what it really comes down to is the 2-pass parsing problem, *again*...
16:37 TimToady so me wonders if there's some way to make it a 1-pass parse
16:40 TimToady something to think about in the shower &
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18:12 Hugmeir rakudo: my $test = [\+] 1..10; $test.perl.say;
18:13 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«(1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 21, 28, 36, 45, 55)␤»
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18:13 Hugmeir rakudo: my @test = [\+] 1..10; @test.perl.say;
18:13 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«[1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 21, 28, 36, 45, 55]␤»
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18:13 masak halloj, zebras!
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18:19 Hugmeir So alright, I'm kind of slow here. What does a triangle reduction return in scalar context?
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18:19 masak depends what you mean by scalar context -- we don't really have scalar contexts in the same way as Perl 5 does.
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18:20 masak rakudo: my @a = 1..10; my @b = [\+] @a; say +@b
18:20 jnthn The easy way to figure it out is to put .WHAT after the operation :)
18:20 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«10␤»
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18:20 jnthn rakudo: my $test = [\+] 1..10; $test.WHAT.say
18:20 masak Hugmeir: but if you mean the above, it returns the length of the list, just like all other numifications of lists.
18:20 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«List()␤»
18:20 masak jnthn! \o/
18:20 jnthn masak! \o/
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18:21 Hugmeir Stupid sexy context being contextual on the language it's used on. Who would've thought : )
18:21 masak today's autopun spotting ^
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18:24 diakopter hugme: hug Hugmeir
18:24 * hugme hugs Hugmeir
18:24 Hugmeir Thnaks for the explanations! I meant it like in jnthn's message; assigning it to a scalar and asking .WHAT kindly did the trick.
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18:24 masak ah. jnthn++
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18:25 Hugmeir jnthnn++ I guess. #perl6++ in general.
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18:43 pmurias who started the hugging meme?
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18:44 masak pmurias: au.
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18:44 pmurias au?
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18:45 PerlJam pmurias: audrey
18:45 masak http://pugs.blogs.com/audrey/2009/08/my-hobby-troll-hugging.html
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19:03 tadzik I think the "submethod BUILD { callsame; ... }" will become quite catchy
19:03 tadzik why is that submethod anyway?
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19:05 masak because we don't want it to inherit?
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19:07 tadzik I don't think I see the point... oh, so the BUILD in child will not override the parent one?
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19:07 masak right, all the BUILDs are meant to be called by BUILDALL.
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19:08 masak (that way, you generally don't *have* to do 'callsame' in a BUILD)
19:08 tadzik well, otherwise you don't get your attibutes
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19:10 masak I don't think I understand. do you have an example handy?
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19:12 tadzik sure, gimme a sec
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19:14 tadzik masak: see http://wklej.org/id/494717/
19:14 tadzik see the effect, then see what happens when you remove the callsame()
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19:15 * masak reads
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19:16 tadzik oh, the parent class is basically useless
19:16 tadzik it's from the time I was implementing AFTERPARTY for Rakudo :)
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19:17 masak ok, I see what the 'callsame' is doing, but I don't like it.
19:17 tadzik I don't like it either
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19:17 masak ISTR someone suggested a change to object initialization recently that would make that go away.
19:17 tadzik I prefer the Moose's way
19:18 masak who was it, and what was the solution?
19:18 masak was it mberends, in the living room, with the cudgel? :)
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19:18 tadzik (:
19:19 masak the solution was something like "for each class, first initialize the attributes with their default values, then call BUILD"
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19:19 masak to me, that makes a lot more sense than having BUILD and attribute defaults compete.
19:19 masak hm, but maybe that was just a bug in Rakudo...?
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19:19 tadzik no, that's a spec thingy
19:19 masak ok, then it officially sucks.
19:19 tadzik and Larry agrees on the current behaviour
19:20 tadzik I don't disagree
19:20 masak Larry agrees that it should change, or agrees with Rakudo's current crappy handling?
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19:21 tadzik agrees with what the spec says, so "you write BUILD when you want to organize the attribute setting yourself"
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19:21 masak :(
19:21 masak what's Moose do?
19:21 tadzik and if you want to have Moose-like behaviour, write stuff after bless in new
19:21 tadzik hm?
19:21 masak how does Moose do all this?
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19:21 tadzik well, BUILD is called after everything is set up and ready
19:22 masak \o/
19:22 tadzik that's the way I like it, and that's the way I expect it to work
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19:22 tadzik I'm quite suprised Perl 6 is different
19:22 masak it's not just you. it's not just me. it's a bunch of people in RT.
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19:26 masak here's one argument against the behavior: (1) user reads list of attributes, sees the default initializations. makes conclusions. "aha, that attribute gets set to that value at object initialization. (2) user gets tired from reading lots of methods in the rest of the class. besides, the init bits were probably at the top anyway.
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19:26 masak (3) user misses BUILD halfway down the class. (4) BOOM
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19:27 masak and don't tell me programmer should've put BUILD further up. it's the language that shouldn't cause action at a distance without good cause.
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19:28 masak even worse action-at-a-distance: make class do nifty new role. role does a bunch of other roles. somewhere, a role contains a BUILD submethod. BOOM, attributes no longer get initialized.
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19:30 masak ss/ \(2/" (2/
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20:02 masak we need some conversation here to drown out shi's constant joining and leaving :)
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20:03 flussence_ that BUILD thing sounds like a good reason to have something like "does RoleName except qw(BUILD)"...
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20:04 flussence_ (or perhaps to beat whoever wrote the role over the head with a cluestick)
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20:05 masak both of those solutions are only workarounds to the real problem of BUILD canceling out the effect of attribute initialization.
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20:09 flussence_ I'm pretty sure the only time I've ever used BUILD was... using it wrong. Hmm.
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20:15 masak tadzik: three people had the same expectations: in June 2009, August 2009, and July 2010. http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=68498
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20:16 tadzik hah, I was almost expecting "and The Month of The Seeds, Anno Domini 1132"
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20:16 masak tadzik: it's your country that has those strange month names, not mine :P
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20:16 tadzik lies! :)
20:17 masak tadzik: by the way, your month names are totally charming. ;)
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20:17 masak "stitch-month"? priceless.
20:17 tadzik Styczeń, Luty, Marzec, Kwiecień, Maj, Czerwiec, Lipiec, Sierpień, Wrzesień, Październik, Listopad and Grudzień? Seems pretty normal to me :)
20:17 masak it stiches together the old year and the new one.
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20:18 tadzik (:
20:18 masak I bet there's a bunch of flowers and old leaves in there as well.
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20:18 masak is "Kwiecień" to do with flowers?
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20:20 masak ah yes, so it seems. and "Październik" is "flax month". you can just make this stuff up.
20:20 masak can't*
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20:24 masak uh... and June is named after... an obscure insect?
20:25 tadzik nope, I think that has something to do with flora again
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20:25 tadzik oh no, you're right
20:25 tadzik a not-yet-bee
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20:26 masak used to make a red dye of some kind.
20:26 tadzik they used to make a red paint out of it, our Red is Czerwony
20:26 tadzik yeah :)
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20:26 masak (Polish months)++ # making the Latin one's seem so boring!
20:26 masak s/one's/ones/
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21:01 masak dduncan's email to p6l is classic p6l material... but also kind of a nice idea. :) to me that'd be a kind of a lint-like tool, and thus not even an extension so much as a "third-party" binary/module.
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21:01 masak the prerequisite of such an idea is something PPI/STD-like, of course.
21:02 moritz_ which we have
21:02 moritz_ \o/
21:02 masak :)
21:02 moritz_ will you write it (3rd party app), or should I?
21:02 Guest32211 is now known as sufrostico_
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21:03 masak please go ahead... and then reply to dduncan's email ;)
21:03 moritz_ uhm, I meant if I should write the reply :-)
21:03 masak oh :P
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21:04 masak please go ahead and reply. I'm currently preparing for $teaching tomorrow.
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21:05 moritz_ what are you going to teach?
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21:06 jdhore How to be Awesome 101
21:06 masak first day of two was today. Android development.
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21:06 masak jdhore: I'll take that as a compliment. thank you ;)
21:06 jdhore masak, ah, How to be Awesome 101 is next week?
21:07 masak depends how you count the GoOpen talk in Oslo :)
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21:07 masak it's named "Herding Cats and Robots" :)
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21:07 jdhore haha
21:07 masak and it's about you, #perl6!
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21:08 moritz_ I thought bacek was the robot, and he's mostly in #parrot :-)
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21:08 masak dang, bacek is stealing my reputation of being a bot... :P
21:08 * masak .oO( reverse Turing test... )
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21:17 tadzik can Rakudo compile STD.pm6?
21:17 moritz_ no
21:17 masak it will be a fine day when it can.
21:18 masak the turtles will laugh all the way down ;)
21:18 moritz_ :-)
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21:22 moritz_ rakudo: my $t = time; sleep 0.1 for ^10; say time - $t
21:22 p6eval rakudo d8e5de: OUTPUT«1␤»
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21:25 dalek roast: 15c1b74 | moritz++ | S32-io/IO-Socket-INET. (2 files):
21:25 dalek roast: [socket] adapt to more p5 like IO::Socket::INET implementation
21:25 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/15c1b74c8f
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21:26 sufrostico_ is now known as Sufrostico
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21:29 tadzik "one spec change away" :)
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21:38 tadzik moritz++ # nice
21:38 [Coke] (duncan) looks like a great padre thing.
21:38 * tadzik installs LWP::Simple with Panda
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21:39 tadzik oh, it fails the tests for me
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21:40 tadzik moritz_: http://nopaste.snit.ch/38011
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21:47 moritz_ with newest rakudo?
21:47 tadzik aye
21:47 tadzik or, wait
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21:47 tadzik ...how newest? Gimme a sec :)
21:48 moritz_ well, it needs 15c1b74
21:48 moritz_ the patch I just pushed
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21:48 tadzik This is Rakudo Perl 6, version 2011.02-55-ge3bd9aa
21:48 moritz_ ETOOOLD
21:48 moritz_ you're so last release
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21:49 tadzik git pull => Already up-to-date.; make: Nothing to be done for `all'.
21:49 * tadzik scrathes head
21:49 moritz_ don't forget "make install"
21:49 tadzik did
21:49 tadzik I don't see the patch in git log
21:49 jdhore moritz_, so i didn't break things?
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21:49 tadzik did you really push it?
21:50 moritz_ oh
21:50 jdhore oh, you were referring to the INET change?
21:50 tadzik caught in the act! :)
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21:50 tadzik jdhore: yes
21:50 jdhore ah, I thought you were saying I broke something in 2011.03 :D
21:50 moritz_ tadzik: I tried, but got a [rejected]
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21:51 tadzik you're so pre-release :)
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21:51 tadzik oh there it is
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21:52 dalek rakudo: 25e5bd0 | TiMBuS++ | src/core/IO/Socket/INET.pm:
21:52 dalek rakudo: Changed IO::Socket::INET to act more like perl5's. One connection per object, acts a little more like a filehandle, and most importantly, actually works (the old code no longer connects).
21:52 dalek rakudo:
21:52 dalek rakudo: Signed-off-by: Moritz Lenz <moritz@faui2k3.org>
21:52 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/25e5bd04b4
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21:54 moritz_ TiMBuS++
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22:00 tadzik ==> Succesfully installed LWP::Simple
22:00 tadzik \o/
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22:07 tadzik masak: Web.pm has some broken dependencies, doesn't it?
22:08 masak likely.
22:08 masak proabably simply bitrot.
22:09 tadzik it could probably make use of HTTP::Server::Simple
22:09 masak oh, indeed.
22:10 moritz_ ... which probably needs updating after last rakudo changes :-)
22:10 tadzik oh crap :)
22:10 masak the Perl 6 world has largely moved on without Web.pm.
22:10 * moritz_ -> sleep
22:10 * masak -> sleep
22:10 colomon well, we need to fix that, then, no?
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23:10 TimToady tadzik: a role's submethods do not override a class's, so that problem doesn't arise with submethod BUILD
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23:10 TimToady phenny: tell masak a role's submethods do not override a class's, so that problem doesn't arise with submethod BUILD
23:10 phenny TimToady: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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23:19 tadzik TimToady: I see
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23:25 tadzik rakudo: use LWP::UserAgent:from<parrot>
23:25 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Parent of 'PCT;Grammar' is null␤»
23:25 tadzik that's funny
23:26 tadzik rakudo: use LWP::UserAgent:from<parrot>; 1
23:26 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Parent of 'PCT;Grammar' is null␤»
23:26 tadzik rakudo: use LWP::UserAgent:from<parrot>; say 'alive'
23:26 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Parent of 'PCT;Grammar' is null␤»
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