Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-03-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:20 sorear good * #perl6
00:48 sorear how much demand is there for .WHY?
00:57 sorear phenny: tell masak Change the spec of BUILD, then see if anyone rises to defend the old way on p6l.
00:57 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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01:24 TimToady .oO("Let's you and him fight.")
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02:54 sorear too quiet.
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02:55 * crickets chirps
02:55 phenny crickets: 30 Nov 12:46Z <j105rob> tell crickets to stop chirping
02:55 crickets is now known as Benabik
02:59 TimToady wow
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03:53 sorear 30 Nov 12:46Z... what year?
03:59 plobsing same year as xmas
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04:10 sorear What happens if a proto is called directly?
04:18 TimToady protos are always called directly, it's multis that can't be called
04:19 worr
04:19 worr sorry about that
04:20 TimToady checked your radiation levels?
04:22 TimToady (well, multis can be called if you know their long name, or dispatchers wouldn't work...)
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04:34 diakopter .
04:36 diakopter phenny: tell crickets Camelia refrains from eating you... this time.
04:36 phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when crickets is around.
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05:14 sorear TimToady: normally, protos are called through dispatch subs?
05:18 TimToady no, protos *call* dispatch subs
05:19 TimToady S06:94
05:20 TimToady when you say foo() you are always calling either a proto or an only
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05:48 tadzik sorear: I can't build niecza on Mono 2.8.2: http://nopaste.snit.ch/38032
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06:00 sorear ...
06:01 sorear that is the dumbest thing I've seen all week.
06:02 diakopter Unknown char: .
06:02 diakopter ROFL
06:02 sorear diakopter: look at the time output
06:02 sorear diakopter: tadzik's .net seems to think the decimal point character is ','
06:03 diakopter right, yeah
06:03 sorear I really, really didn't want to implement floating point parsing myself
06:03 sorear but if the CLR is going to do something idiotic like non-optional locale "support"...
06:04 diakopter you can force your json reader/writer to always use a particular locale
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06:05 tadzik oh crap
06:05 tadzik so the locale thingy?
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06:08 tadzik sorear: looks like it passes with `LC_ALL="" make`
06:11 diakopter sorear:
06:11 tadzik but now I have to `LC_ALL="" niecza` too, otherwise it works with `my $a = 2,23` but crashes with `my $a = 2.23`
06:11 diakopter ((CultureInfo)(new CultureInfo("en-US", false)).NumberFormat
06:12 diakopter er, I guess that cast isn't needed
06:13 diakopter Double.Parse(string s, (new CultureInfo("en-US", false)).NumberFormat)
06:15 diakopter sorear: I think it would be best to standardize the formatting of your json storage format as an internal thingie
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07:06 sorear diakopter: anything that involves instantiating Locale objects based on string keys sounds unusably slow
07:07 sorear diakopter: json formatting is already standardized, in an RFC.  The fact that niecza fails to generate valid JSON in tadzik's locale is a bug, not a "would be best" thing
07:07 * sorear out
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07:33 diakopter sorear: um.  utter failure to receive communication.  thanks a lot.
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13:14 * moritz_ breaks the silence
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13:19 moritz_ STD.pm6 line 580 "or () to represent Nil"
13:19 moritz_ I thought Nil and () are now explicilty distinct?
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14:06 moritz_ wow, STD.pm has at least 170 distinct error messages, not counting the various .obs and .sorryobs calls
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14:11 sorear good * #perl6
14:11 moritz_ \o|
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14:13 moritz_ some error messages use "Cannot", some "Can not", and others "Can't"
14:13 moritz_ Can't we agree on one spelling? :-)
14:13 tadzik no, we Cannot :)
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14:14 mathw it would be good to be consistent
14:14 mathw looks better
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14:35 flussence_ I'd go with one without an apostrophe, just to make things slightly easier for people writing grep regex
14:35 mathw I'd also tend to think "can't" is a bit too informal for a compiler's error message
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14:39 moritz_ so, "Cannot" or "Can not"?
14:41 sorear +1 to Cannot
14:43 mathw I'm not sure which is considered 'correct'
14:44 mathw but I think 'cannot' is better in this kind of thing
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14:44 tadzik I'm for "thou shant"
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14:52 colomon If can't is out, then cannot, IMO.
14:53 moritz_ can't isn't out yet, I'm still collecting opinions
14:53 moritz_ and I want a green light from TimToady before I change all instances in STD.pm6
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15:07 [Coke] FGP.
15:08 moritz_ hm :-)
15:08 slavik1 just go with "NO"
15:08 slavik1 so that when compilation fails, you just get a "NO! Your code is stupid. Go away!"
15:08 slavik1 :D
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15:14 sorear slavik1: someone in another channel once complained about a Prolog implementation they had to use which had a single message for all syntax errors
15:15 slavik1 nice^^
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15:25 colomon "Bad programmer!  No cookie!"
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15:27 arnsholt sorear: I usually quite like Prolog, but that sounds kinda nasty
15:28 arnsholt Although truth be told, my Prolog compiler isn't exactly helpful on syntax errors either ^_^
15:32 slavik1 I was wondering ... how much extra work would it be to take Perl6 Grammars and bolt on things to get a lexer/parser?
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15:32 slavik1 so that it would tell you what token it is expecting if it was wrong
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15:42 sorear slavik1: STD has that capability, but it's quite useless in practice
15:42 slavik1 I mean for coming up with my own language or something
15:43 PerlJam slavik1: that's what :dba('foo') is all about
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17:23 tigeraniya hiiii
17:24 sorear Hello tigeraniya.  Welcome!
17:25 tigeraniya thanks , i am coder with good skills in c java and python how can i help this project
17:25 tigeraniya where to pull SRC
17:25 tigeraniya something like git repo
17:25 flussence_ https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo
17:26 tigeraniya thnks FLUSSence_
17:26 sorear There isn't a single global repository; there are many independant subprojects
17:26 sorear What flussence_ just linked you to was one of the compilers; it has very little C and no Java nor Python
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17:27 tigeraniya ohh
17:27 sorear If you want to use Perl 6, the dominant platform currently is Rakudo + Parrot
17:27 tigeraniya ok  sorear
17:28 sorear Parrot has a lot of C components; it's the VM Rakudo uses
17:28 tigeraniya hmm
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17:29 TimToady sorear has mostly been working on an implementation called 'niecza' that is considerably faster but doesn't implement as much yet, and runs on the CLR
17:29 sorear Rakudo is written in a subset of Perl 6; it parses Perl 6 and prepares it for execution by Parrot
17:29 sorear Rakudo also contains a few C fragments used as native calls of a sort to speed up very important operations (operator overloading etc)
17:29 TimToady niecza has a better parser :)
17:30 sorear it also contains a minimal standard library, which is written in unrestricted Perl 6
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17:30 * sorear is not much for self-promotion :p
17:30 tigeraniya sorear i am not a professional . but i will have to study this project so that i can contribute ,   what yo guys can do is point me to right direction , so that i won't consume ur ( our community precious coders) precious  time
17:30 TimToady I realize this, which is why I'm doing it :)
17:31 TimToady tigeraniya: there are many ways to contribute
17:31 tigeraniya ok
17:31 TimToady you can write tests, or docs, for instance
17:31 tigeraniya ok where to start
17:31 TimToady you can give feedback on what you find confusing
17:31 tigeraniya ok
17:32 tigeraniya or somewhere i can find
17:32 tigeraniya give me some work to do
17:32 TimToady first you should probably install rakudo and play with it a bit
17:32 tigeraniya ok am on it
17:35 sorear If you want to do C coding to help Perl 6, you should look at http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki
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17:37 TimToady or you can help mberends++ to target the JVM
17:38 TimToady nobody's targeting Python :)  (though parrot also plans to support other languages including python)
17:39 sorear except for pugs, I think all of the serious attempts to implment Perl 6 have relied heavily on Perl coding
17:39 sorear I blame the fact that Perl 6's grammar is defined in terms of Perl 6 parsing operators
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17:40 TimToady whoops, tigeraniya has left
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17:49 sorear things which make me feel stupid: noticing that I have code to use a hash table to cache the result of a function... which does a hash table lookup.
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18:03 masak oh hai, #perl6.
18:03 phenny masak: 17 Mar 23:10Z <TimToady> tell masak a role's submethods do not override a class's, so that problem doesn't arise with submethod BUILD
18:03 phenny masak: 00:57Z <sorear> tell masak Change the spec of BUILD, then see if anyone rises to defend the old way on p6l.
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18:04 masak TimToady: yes, but what about the case where the class has no BUILD submethod?
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18:15 TimToady every class has a BUILD that it thinks of as its own, even if it's really Mu::BUILD
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18:22 masak this is news to me. how does that square with submethods not being inherited?
18:23 TimToady historically, Mu's build has been declared as a method rather than a submethod, but that's perhaps an implementation detail that could be wrongish
18:24 TimToady in some sense infrastructure has to be at a lower level, and each class's portion of the current object has to managed by that class
18:24 TimToady if it delegates that responsibility to Mu::BUILD or something else in the REPR, say, then that's kinda up to the class
18:26 TimToady I'm of two minds whether callsame should be used for that particular delegation
18:26 masak we seem to agree on the current state not being ideal.
18:27 TimToady well, the specs are somewhat agnostic on the particular BUILD wrappiness; one shouldn't take rakudo's approach as necessarily canonical
18:28 TimToady but the design needs to balance several conflicting goals
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18:28 TimToady one really important one is performance, which is why the current semantics try to prevent assignment of defaults only to be overridden
18:28 TimToady that's just wasted work
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18:29 TimToady but within that constraint we also want to preserve flexibility
18:29 TimToady and where exactly the various BUILD components live can certainly be tweaked
18:30 TimToady however, it's certainly the case that role submethods belong to the role, not to the class in which they are composed
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18:30 TimToady hafta go pick someone up at the airport now
18:30 TimToady later &
18:31 masak performance is the first good reason I've heard for the overriding of default attribute initialization.
18:33 masak rakudo: role R[::T] { multi method foo(T $x) { say $x } }; class C does R[Str] does R[Int] {}; C.new.foo(5.5)
18:33 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd: OUTPUT«get_attr_str() not implemented in class 'Sub'␤  in main program body at line 7529␤»
18:33 masak rakudo: role R[::T] { multi method foo(T $x) { say $x } }; class C does R[Str] does R[Int] {}; C.new.foo(42)
18:33 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd: OUTPUT«42␤»
18:33 masak rakudo: role R[::T] { multi method foo(T $x) { say $x } }; class C does R[Str] does R[Int] {}; C.new.foo("OH HAI")
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18:33 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd: OUTPUT«get_attr_str() not implemented in class 'Sub'␤  in main program body at line 7529␤»
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18:36 * masak closes #83668
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19:05 moritz_ RT doesn't know any 83668
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19:18 masak oh.
19:18 masak it was the one you replied to recently.
19:18 masak #86338, sorry.
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19:19 moritz_ the one with type cpatures?
19:20 masak ::Right.
19:21 tadzik hello pandas
19:21 masak luckily, I had already successfully filed that bug ;)
19:21 masak tadzik: \o
19:23 colomon o/
19:27 moritz_ \o
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19:33 tadzik weekends! \o/
19:34 Mowah joined #perl6
19:40 masak \o/
19:40 moritz_ weekend = enought time to announce the p6cc winner, masak?
19:40 masak oh, I should think so.
19:41 moritz_ \o\
19:41 masak been busy with $teaching the last two days. currently returning to caring about other things.
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19:54 * colomon really likes ?? !! better than ? :
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19:56 sbp really?? great!!
19:56 tadzik :D
19:57 pyrimidine looks like Parrot Foundation and TPF got into GSoC!
19:57 pyrimidine http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/program/accepted_orgs/google/gsoc2011
20:00 moritz_ \o/
20:01 tadzik aye :)
20:02 sorear masak: I think that lazy initialization of object attributes on first read or end of BUILD is ETOOMUCHMAGIC
20:03 dalek niecza: c2fbfdf | sorear++ | lib/ (2 files):
20:03 dalek niecza: Refactor <foo> LTM resolution, start stubbing in dispatch methods
20:03 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c2fbfdf86d
20:03 masak sorear: I'm all for simplicity. and BUILD overriding the default initialization seems to violate Least Surprise for people.
20:04 sorear masak: the spec can't change itself
20:04 sorear (we hope)
20:07 masak sorear: I usually tell people that ;)
20:07 masak sorear: I promise to make the spec change as soon as I'm sufficiently convinced of it.
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20:24 sorear masak: let's drown out shi.
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20:25 sorear masak: what really bugs me is has $!a = rand; submethod BUILD() { say $!a }
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20:28 masak sorear: why does that case particularly bug you?
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20:29 sorear masak: it requires the reads to be active
20:29 sorear masak: rand isn't done until $!a is accessed
20:29 sorear masak: it requires tie-y functionality
20:30 masak wait, are you talking about current semantics, or proposed?
20:30 sorear current.
20:30 masak by current semantics, that'd print "Any()"...
20:30 masak (since the BUILD overrides the default initialization)
20:31 masak I refer you to TimToady's argument about wastefulness and performance above.
20:32 sorear I think having to keep an extra "this Any has been explicitly assigned" bit is almost certainly worse than the benefit
20:33 masak full ACK.
20:33 masak never liked that bit.
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20:33 Tene masak: what have you been teaching?
20:34 masak Tene: Android development.
20:39 masak http://www.informator.se/utbildningar/systemutveckling/applikation/java/new-programming-essentials-for-android.aspx
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20:42 Tene Huh.  I hadn't remembered that you also did Java.
20:43 masak it's a living.
20:48 perigrin Android seemed like a slightly less eye-stabby environment to write Java for.
20:49 perigrin but I can only compare it to writing JTable Applets
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21:26 masak question: what should 'perl6 -p' do, now that 'perl6' goes into a REPL?
21:27 moritz_ die
21:27 sorear +1
21:27 moritz_ anything that reads from $*IN interacts badly with REPL
21:29 masak the current (emergent) behavior is... interesting.
21:29 masak but probably not too useful.
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21:44 On96 Hi!
21:44 moritz_ hello On96
21:46 * On96 got banned by someone on #perl for suggesting a security issue related to Perl being sponatneous when it comes to saving files in either ANSI or UTF-8. Was it such a bad quiestion? If so-I can actualy show that.
21:46 On96 thrig@72.14.189.113  banned me
21:47 moritz_ On96: if you want to report a security issue in perl, please try #p5p on irc.perl.org
21:47 On96 Thanks
21:47 moritz_ or mailto:perlbug@perl.org
21:47 BinGOs I would suggest the latter.
21:48 On96 I actualy asked for help- for a simple way to identify the flag in which the file is encoded in, without needing to run complciated tests.
21:49 masak On96: sorry to hear you had a hard time over at #perl.
21:49 masak On96: you're the second this week to come in here and say that.
21:50 * On96 is 46 years old... and last tiem he got banned on irc must have been 8 years ago.
21:50 masak from what you're saying, it was unwarranted.
21:51 tadzik #perl doetn's have the reputation of a friendliest place on earth, does it
21:51 On96 Looks like a good trick to promote Perl6 atleast :-)
21:51 On96 Yaakov is not there any more :(
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21:52 moritz_ I was about to say that you won't get banned for any Perl 6 security concerns here :-)
21:52 masak :P
21:52 tadzik On96: OTOH, you're on one of the friendliest channels, welcome! )
21:52 On96 Thanks! :-) :-) :-)
21:52 masak who's Yaakov?
21:53 On96 Yaakov was an ol op there, havent talked to him for years.
21:54 * masak smiles at the comment '# MUST BE LOWERCASE' in src/Perl6/Compiler.pir
21:54 On96 Thanks tadzik; I know I have been here before too :-) Even talked to TimToady once :-)
21:55 mj41 left #perl6
21:55 moritz_ such things happen here
21:56 masak our notional hierarchy is flat. ish.
21:56 On96 True anarchists?
21:56 sorear our notional hierarchy is upside down!
21:56 On96 lol
21:57 masak we dance the mambo with our notional hierarchy!
21:57 On96 hehehe
21:57 moritz_ what do you expect from computer scientist, who draw trees with their root on top
21:57 masak sorear: are you referring to the fact that all of us are the boss of TimToady? :P
21:58 On96 How is his health these days? anyoen knows?
21:58 masak maybe ask TimToady. he's at the airport, but he'll be back.
21:58 On96 I own him more then half of my life to say it exact.
21:59 masak wow.
21:59 On96 Perl gave me a life.
21:59 sorear TimToady hasn't said anything about health recently
21:59 sorear unless jet lag counts
21:59 On96 Job, family and something to dream about at the night time.
21:59 sorear hey, I could use one of those
21:59 masak On96: I predict you're going to like it here :)
22:00 masak On96: we dream about Perl most of the time.
22:00 tadzik yeah. I go to sleep counting zebras
22:00 tadzik *cough*
22:00 On96 lol
22:01 tadzik sorry, stripped joke
22:01 masak tadzik: you know what I think would be really big? EAN zebras.
22:01 On96 Will go back to my UTF-8 issue- 2 more hours before dreaming starts.
22:01 tadzik EAN?
22:01 masak tadzik: barcodes.
22:01 On96 Thanks alot to everyone.
22:01 masak On96: good luck!
22:01 tadzik masak: what about them?
22:01 tadzik On96: o/
22:02 masak tadzik: you could scan them once, and then keep track of them somehow.
22:02 masak tadzik: then you wouldn't have to count them every night.
22:02 sorear or just use rfid
22:02 tadzik masak: oh wow
22:03 tadzik and maybe create some lazy list of'em
22:03 masak sorear: obviously, you're thinking about goldfish, not zebras. :)
22:03 tadzik after all, you usually get asleep before you count them all, so there's no use in keeping 'em all in memory
22:04 masak that makes sense.
22:06 * jnthn home o/
22:06 masak rakudo: .say for "zebra 1", { (True, True, True, False).pick ?? $_++ !! "zzz" } ... "zzz"
22:06 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd: OUTPUT«zebra 1␤zebra 1␤zebra 1␤zebra 1␤zzz␤»
22:06 masak jnthn! \o/
22:06 masak oh, right.
22:06 jnthn o/ masak
22:06 masak rakudo: .say for "zebra 1", { (True, True, True, False).pick ?? ++$_ !! "zzz" } ... "zzz"
22:06 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd: OUTPUT«zebra 1␤zzz␤»
22:06 masak :P
22:06 masak rakudo: .say for "zebra 1", { (True, True, True, False).pick ?? ++$_ !! "zzz" } ... "zzz"
22:06 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd: OUTPUT«zebra 1␤zebra 2␤zebra 3␤zzz␤»
22:06 masak \o/
22:07 On96 Got my answer by the way: Test::utf8    so... if anyoen feels like telling the guys in #perl  this is the best way to check a string for sane utf-8 thanks.
22:09 BinGOs which appears to use Encode.
22:11 On96 True
22:13 On96 return ok(Encode::is_utf8($string),$name);
22:13 On96 I wish there was something like this for files, eg. -B and -T tests
22:15 alim joined #perl6
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22:20 masak oh btw.
22:20 masak I got another p5 solution from ajs.
22:21 masak (not part of the contest, of course, but still potentially interesting)
22:21 Holy_Cow joined #perl6
22:21 sorear On96: Encode::is_utf8 doesn't check a string for sane utf-8
22:22 Holy_Cow left #perl6
22:23 On96 What does it do then?
22:23 * On96 is frustrated
22:23 sorear This is probably why you got banned from #perl
22:23 ajs joined #perl6
22:23 masak sorear: it just checks a flag?
22:24 sorear They're very touchy about people mis-using deep internals
22:24 sorear masak: yes
22:24 On96 hrrm
22:24 sorear masak: Perl 5 automatically coerces between Buf and Str as needed; is_utf8 basically does ~~ Str
22:24 masak aye.
22:25 sorear it's not relevant unless you are debugging Perl itself, or a C-level extension
22:26 masak only because Perl 5 blurs the line between Str and Buf enough for it to be "internals".
22:26 On96 Trying to convert an entire CMS to UTF-8
22:26 On96 web-app
22:27 masak On96: have you read perlunitut?
22:27 On96 no
22:28 masak you'll probably want to at this point. just to be sure.
22:28 On96 I have 15 Perl Oreilly other books though :)
22:28 kfo_ left #perl6
22:28 On96 Will look for it thanks.
22:29 masak http://perldoc.perl.org/perlunitut.html
22:30 Mowah left #perl6
22:32 On96 thanks!
22:33 kfo joined #perl6
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22:35 twinshadow joined #perl6
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22:44 On96 So actually it is an administartive issue-unless unless I want to start messing around with Perl internals :-(
22:45 * On96 is a bad administrator
22:45 bbkr joined #perl6
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22:51 MayDaniel joined #perl6
22:55 masak On96: well, no; not if you're trying to solve a problem related to Perl giving output in different encodings.
22:55 masak that sounds like the recipe "1. decode, 2. process, 3. encode" isn't being done right.
22:55 moritz_ http://perlgeek.de/en/article/encodings-and-unicode btw
23:01 On96 Interesting link moritz. Reading.
23:01 fisted left #perl6
23:01 On96 This is actually my problem: "Otherwise, you can get confused very fast, and lose track of which strings are byte strings, and which ones are text strings" (quoted from the link..).
23:02 masak right. that's exactly the problem you don't want to have in your application.
23:02 masak the strings inside of the barriers should all be of the same "type".
23:04 On96 oy...
23:05 masak was that from picturing the refactorings involved? :P
23:06 On96 I tried to enforce utf-8 encoding on all files starting form a certain date, to make it easy for users to upgarde thier CMS... but then again, Perl sometimes refuses to savethe file in utf-8 very strange. I used the encode for that.
23:13 sorear you seem to be very confused about what utf-8 is.
23:14 On96 My utf-8 knowledge varies with the results it produces on the html output :-( I must admit...
23:14 On96 I know how to encode utf-8 into a non utf-8, and how to do it... once too much and even twice! lol
23:14 masak On96: hang in there. confusion about utf-8 and encodings eventually goes away, and once it does, things get a *lot* simpler.
23:15 masak a bit like Git, actually :)
23:15 On96 thanks for the empathy...
23:15 On96 feel much better already :-)
23:16 masak "#perl6: you'll feel much better" :)
23:17 On96 hehehe
23:17 On96 Does Dreamhost have it installed?
23:17 masak Perl 6? I doubt it.
23:18 On96 This is a problem-its a CMS, we have many people dependent on it.
23:19 On96 not a great CMS, but it makes some people happy.
23:21 masak sure
23:21 Tene On96: if they provide fedora systems, yes, you can install it from the package manager.
23:21 Tene I don't recall if we ever got packages in ubuntu or not.
23:24 MayDaniel left #perl6
23:27 jfried left #perl6
23:29 On96 will ask them
23:29 diakopter I own the groups/packages/namespaces in ubuntu - they're free for anyone else to join/takeover though...
23:30 diakopter I used to, anyway
23:32 On96 I try to convince to take in Perl6
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23:36 sorear TimToady: hi
23:37 sorear TimToady: if I have proto rule foo { {*} <bar> }, what does $<foo>.keys look like?
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