Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-03-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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01:18 On96 TE
01:18 On96 YES! Just as inspector clausau said once "the case is solvet".
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01:20 On96 foreach my $name ( $query ->param ) {my @val = $query ->param( $name );foreach ( @val ) {$_ = Encode::decode_utf8( $_ );} $name = Encode::decode_utf8( $name ); :-)
01:20 On96 simply decoding and encoding at the right places...
01:21 On96 UTF-8 is working!
01:24 sorear I recommend not putting spaces before ->
01:24 sorear Spaces before postfix operators break in Perl 6
01:26 sorear according to perldoc CGI, you should just be able to use CGI '-utf8'; and have it all automatic
01:27 flussence_ the best way to handle utf8 is pretend it doesn't exist, unless you're the one doing IO
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01:40 lue hello! o/
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01:45 sorear hi.
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02:14 dalek niecza: 5d5bdc7 | sorear++ | lib/Cursor.cs:
02:14 dalek niecza: Add support routines for new dispatch-method model
02:14 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/5d5bdc7f6a
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04:16 mberends good morning
04:18 lue good morning o/
04:19 mberends I ran Rakudo spectests overnight, and have observed a significant slowdown since a week ago
04:22 mberends it could be the local computer, does anyone else notice the full spectest suite taking approximately twice as long?
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04:24 mberends .oO( if only someone would develop a test result aggregation database. oh wait, what was that popolnik? )
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05:53 dalek niecza: 2c07097 | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
05:53 dalek niecza: Implement topologically ordered method cache invalidation
05:53 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/2c07097221
05:54 mberends hi sorear
05:54 sorear hi mberends
05:54 sorear how are things for you?
05:55 mberends busy at $work, after hours too
05:55 * sorear is sneaking up on multiple dispatch
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05:56 mberends sorear: nice
05:57 sorear I have to sleep now, but I'll probably have protoregexes working /correctly/ tomorrow
05:57 mberends :)
05:57 sorear good chance of nominal MMD by #phasers, but no promises
05:58 sorear tuit shortage.
05:58 * sorear out
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06:42 mberends Rakudo slowdown confirmed on a second hardware/software combination, seems to have happened around 2011-03-12 :(
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07:12 mberends anyone: could someone (*tm) with git-bisect-fu search for which Rakudo commit slowed Rakudo tests/spectests down by a factor of 2?
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07:17 jdhore mberends, I'm betting you're not using a parrot built with the gms GC
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07:18 mberends jdhore: this is using whatever Rakudo's Configure.pl --gen-parrot chooses
07:18 jdhore what's the date of your build?
07:19 mberends today, latest checkouts
07:19 jdhore odd
07:19 mberends whenever PARROT_REVISION changes I do a make realclean and rm -rf parrot parrot_install
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08:40 dalek niecza: c58db17 | (Martin Berends)++ | Makefile:
08:40 dalek niecza: [Makefile] add targets aot spectest clean realclean and help
08:40 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c58db17b68
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08:50 On96 Is it great crime to decode utf8 before saving a file and then encode it utf8 when displaying it (the results is an html page)?
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09:02 masak morning, zebras.
09:02 masak On96: no, that doesn't sound like great crime at all.
09:03 masak sounds like what you'd want to do in general with the I/O barrier and strings.
09:03 masak on the "inside" of your application, you want to treat the strings are sequences of characters. on the "outside", you generally have to treat them as sequences of bytes.
09:04 masak which means what you generally do is decode, process, encode.
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09:14 tadzik hello zebras
09:18 masak \o
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09:19 moritz_ good morning
09:28 masak rakudo: .say for ("hi", "good morning" X~ " ") Z~ <tadzik moritz_>
09:28 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd: OUTPUT«hi tadzik␤good morning moritz_␤»
09:29 masak interesting question on the above: how would the thing be parsed without the parens?
09:29 * masak sees if he can get viv working locally again
09:30 masak ah. S03 mentions just that: "Note that list associativity (X) only works between identical operators. If two different list-associative operators have the same precedence, they are assumed to be non-associative with respect to each other, and parentheses must be used to disambiguate."
09:30 masak std: .say for "hi", "good morning" X~ " " Z~ <tadzik moritz_>
09:31 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤"X~" and "Z~" are non-associative and require parens at /tmp/8SzyU2iLVZ line 1:␤------> [32m.say for "hi", "good morning" X~ " " Z~ [33m⏏[31m<tadzik moritz_>[0m␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 121m␤»
09:31 masak right. case closed.
09:31 moritz_ wow, being greated with syntactically invalid code... #perl6 has seen better times :-)
09:32 masak hey! my original code was valid! :P
09:32 moritz_ fairy nuff
09:34 masak also, the tie between "good times" and "syntactic validity" is tenuous at best...
09:34 * masak stops overanalyzing
09:36 On96 Thanks masak... then it looks like the dream I had last night was productive! :-)
09:36 masak :)
09:36 masak "#perl6: Dream Productively"
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09:57 moritz_ still no new MoR chapter :(
10:03 masak also, the last couple chapters have been, well. not worse in quality, but also not building on the main story.
10:05 moritz_ considering that it's a fan fiction of philospher's stone, there needs to be some motivation to go into that forbidden corridor
10:05 moritz_ so the last chapter might be the builtup for that
10:05 moritz_ but yes, so far it looks like a side story
10:07 masak oh, true. it's not that I mind the extra focus on Hermione; she already has a pretty large part in the story, so it makes sense.
10:07 masak and leading up to the forbidden corridor would indeed explain the detour.
10:09 tadzik who was working on the irc client?
10:09 moritz_ tadzik: TiMBuS I think
10:09 masak the place where I last laughed out loud was '"But that's *crazy*!" Susan blurted out. [...] The Headmaster leaned down until he was face-to-face with the young girl. [...] Dumbledore put a finger to his lips and twiddled them, making a *bweeble-bweeble-bweeble* sound.'
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10:25 masak moritz_: have you started reading the Sequences?
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10:40 moritz_ Sequences?
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10:42 patrickas http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Sequences
10:42 patrickas hello all!
10:42 tadzik hello!
10:42 patrickas o/ Master Zebra!
10:43 tadzik whoa, whoa :)
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10:45 * donri finished MoR
10:46 * donri craves new chapters
10:46 patrickas Dang I forgot moritz_ hides joins and leaves! lost the intended effect :-)
10:46 patrickas donri ... unfortunately you'll have to wait weeks to get your fix now
10:47 tadzik I hide them too :)
10:47 moritz_ reading it in the logs, in retrospec it's quite impressive :-)
10:47 donri aww!
10:47 tadzik (:
10:47 donri is patrickas the author?
10:47 patrickas donri HELLO NO!
10:47 donri is EY?
10:52 patrickas donri: Yes, Elizer is the author of MoR he used to blog frenquently on LessWrong , some of his posts have been assembled into "The Sequences" (url pasted above)
10:53 donri in deed
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11:17 donri rakudo: say ?" "
11:17 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
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11:23 masak buubot: ?eval say !!"0"
11:23 masak ENOBUUBOT
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11:24 masak anyway, in Perl 5, "0" boolifies to False.
11:24 masak perl6: say ?"0"
11:24 p6eval rakudo 25e5bd, niecza v3-78-gc58db17: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
11:24 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
11:24 masak oh. in Perl 6 too :)
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11:26 tadzik . o O ( I should reuse the "Master Zebra" title )
11:29 masak "Mastering Regular Expressions and Zebras"?
11:31 huf i have a little app called zbr that makes a zebra run to the middle of my terminal, poop and then jump on it
11:31 huf i managed to wean myself off of typoing bzr as zbr that way ;)
11:32 huf of course, now i type bzsr
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11:36 masak huf: did you write the zebra app yourself?
11:36 tadzik care to share?
11:36 huf yeah, it's just a very small curses thing
11:37 huf hmm, i wonder where i put the source
11:37 tadzik masak: as in http://whyhello.im/tadzik :)
11:39 masak tadzik: ah :)
11:39 masak tadzik: in a couple of years, you can advance to being "Senior Master Zebra" :)
11:39 patrickas tadzik is that a black unstriped zebra ?
11:40 tadzik oh, I'll have to find a padawan first :)
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11:40 tadzik you're quite close to it anyway, masak ;)
11:42 masak "padawan" as in "apprentice"?
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11:42 masak that's me :)
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11:43 huf masak: huf.parawag.net/zbr.tgz
11:44 huf or tadzik
11:44 huf it's more stupid and less useful tho :)
11:44 masak sure :)
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11:46 tadzik that's super cool :)
11:46 masak huf: make error: https://gist.github.com/877423
11:46 masak oh! it's because I don't have some curses lib installed?
11:46 huf looks like it
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11:58 * tadzik gone
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11:58 masak now it works. huf: *lol*
11:58 huf :)
11:59 masak "why did you install the 'ncurses' package?" -- "I'd rather not say."
11:59 huf essential tools
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14:27 moritz_ "because of the zebras"
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14:57 moritz_ mberends: I can't confirm any significant rakudo slowdowns since Toulouse-47-g3680ac3 (2011-03-08) and now. All spectest runs took about 20 minutes on my dual core laptop
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15:38 sorear mberends++
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17:10 colomon masak, moritz_: don't suppose one of you guys knows an easy way to generate a binary tree graph for a blog post?
17:12 masak colomon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphviz ?
17:13 masak though given enough time, I might just skip the graphviz step and work out a Perl 5/6 script to generate the SVG directly.
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17:14 colomon Oooo, I remember using Graphviz to try to chart the entity relationships in a STEP file once.  That was one hideously complicated graph.
17:14 colomon masak++
17:15 masak or two scripts. one to generate the coordinates for the nodes and edges, and one to decorate those with SVG elements.
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17:16 masak pipe one to the other, and voilà!
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17:18 colomon I guess is the point where I should mention my other blog.  :)
17:19 colomon not p6 related, alas: http://exploringjt.wordpress.com/
17:21 masak nice. hadn't heard about JT before.
17:23 colomon It's an annoying CAD format.
17:23 colomon They made it simple and elegant, and then heaped on about four layers of compression stuff on top of everything.
17:27 colomon poop, graphviz won't install on my OS X.  :(
17:27 colomon ascii tree, here we come.
17:36 masak colomon: might be you can use this nice tool: https://github.com/masak/tote/commit/033fcfb506d1f61fe2c35c5064ca6f3fd2923730
17:36 masak (note, ASCII graph above, rendered .png version below)
17:40 masak ah, here it is: http://ditaa.sourceforge.net/
17:40 masak at some point, I'd like to make a Perl 6 port of that tool. it's seriously cool.
17:41 flussence_ I once tried to get graphviz to render the entire dependency graph of packages I have installed on my desktop. It doesn't like doing graphs with 1500+ nodes apparently...
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17:42 masak flussence_: I think I've seen graphviz graphs with far more nodes than that...
17:42 flussence_ It might've been running out of /tmp space, come to think of it...
17:42 sorear flussence_: once I tried to render the static call graph of a 1MB executable using graphviz
17:43 flussence_ (which is on a tmpfs, so it probably ran out of RAM)
17:43 sorear it generated a .svg with a nominal size of 10^6 by 10^3
17:43 sorear that was about 30,000 edges iirc
17:43 flussence_ ouch
17:46 flussence_ (hm, I tried again and it gave me a 32766x55 png...)
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17:48 moritz_ I've successfully rendered signing graphs of my GPG key ring
17:48 moritz_ but it's hard to find a viewer that doesn't crash on it :-)
17:49 colomon masak: nifty!
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17:53 masak colomon: yeah. I should use it more myself.
17:56 tadzik o/
17:58 masak \o
17:58 colomon o\
17:59 masak what's that... a leg?
17:59 colomon saluting hand, I reckon.  :)
17:59 masak oh right.
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18:24 colomon masak: new ditaa-powered post: http://exploringjt.wordpress.com/2011/03/19/huffman-coding/
18:33 masak \o/
18:34 masak colomon: have you considered making the edges as T crossings rather than slashes?
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18:38 colomon T crossings?
18:38 colomon slashes obviously came out wrong...
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18:45 masak T crossings, as in one vertical line from the parent node meeting a horizontal line joining the child nodes somehow.
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18:50 colomon ah
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20:03 lue hello world o/
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20:15 colomon \o
20:15 masak hellue!
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20:23 mberends hi lue!  how is your C++ experiment going?
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20:30 takadonet hey all
20:32 lue mberends: Forgotten about :) . Besides, I think I'm more interested in getting my Pod reader working first.
20:33 lue .oO[ It's the start of spring break (week-long break from school) and it's snowing outside :D ]
20:34 mberends lue: ok, and have a good week (spring in NL is for real now :-)
20:35 arnsholt It's spring in Norway too. The snow is melting! =D
20:36 arnsholt I so look forward to snow-free Oslo
20:36 * mberends remembers piles of snow in Oslo during NPW2009
20:37 mberends (or was it heaps? not stacks, anyways)
20:37 arnsholt Hehe. When was that again? Late march or something?
20:39 mberends April 16-17 2009 http://www.perlworkshop.no/npw2009/
20:39 arnsholt Impressive. The snow is usually gone by that time
20:40 lue The weather was good for a bit, but the snow and other wintery weather came back just in time for situational irony.
20:41 arnsholt Where in the US you at?
20:42 mberends winter often has a final snap during Easter in the UK as well
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20:45 lue Pacific Standard Time zone :) [only daylight savings is on, grrr.]
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20:48 arnsholt mberends: Yeah, although easter is a bit early for that here
20:48 mberends oh yeah US is already on DST, Europe does that only next weekend :/
20:48 arnsholt Easter is the traditional "go to the mountains for cross-country skiing"-holiday =)
20:49 lue Easter is when this year?
20:49 arnsholt Stupid late
20:49 arnsholt Last week-end of march, IIRC
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20:52 mberends Easter Sunday will be April 24
20:56 arnsholt Heh. Shows how good my memory is
20:57 mberends coincidentally Orthodox Easter is also on the same date, unlike in most other years http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/qt/whyeasterchange.htm
20:57 flussence_ std: sub MAIN(Str :$foo, Str :$bar);
20:57 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Malformed block at /tmp/AbynIkbxjt line 1:␤------> [32msub MAIN(Str :$foo, Str :$bar)[33m⏏[31m;[0m␤    expecting any of:␤        constraint␤     param_sep␤      parameter␤      routine_def␤    trait␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
20:58 lue That's a day after DW Season 32 begins!
20:58 flussence_ ooh, thanks for reminding me :)
20:59 lue (in both the UK *and* the US, btw \o/)
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21:06 colomon US is getting DW the same time this season?
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21:09 * mberends feels his gloat-fu weaken ;)
21:12 lue colomon: indeed it is. Actually the Christmas Special last, er, christmas, aired on the same day as well. It's also the first season to have filmed footage on US soil!
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22:17 tadzik o/
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