Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-03-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:54 adriano86 hi
01:54 adriano86 I need help with some perl code
02:01 donri 6? :)
02:02 silent_h_ joined #perl6
02:02 adriano86 no
02:02 adriano86 7
02:02 adriano86 whataafuck you think
02:02 adriano86 you troll
02:05 donri 'perl' usually refers to 5, not trolling
02:05 adriano86 so you saying that i am?
02:05 silent_h_ left #perl6
02:06 donri anyway, it's best to just ask/state your problem and see if anyone bites
02:06 donri nope, was just making sure. don't take it personally.
02:09 adriano86 ok so what are you saying
02:09 adriano86 let me hear it
02:09 adriano86 spit it out
02:10 flussence_ hugme: hug adriano86
02:10 * hugme hugs adriano86
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02:10 adriano86 go away!
02:10 adriano86 i dont need a god damn hug
02:10 adriano86 I got a problem that i need solved
02:11 Eevee maybe spend less time fighting over nothing and more time telling us what the problem is
02:11 flussence_ if you actually have a problem, start showing code.
02:11 donri adriano86: You're not really acting in such a way as to inspire people to help you with your perl problem.
02:11 flussence_ if not, you want #perl.
02:12 adriano86 donri im tryin but its damn hard when im surrounded by idiots
02:12 adriano86 ok fine
02:12 donri You're either trolling or you have seriously misinterpreted the situation.
02:12 adriano86 think ill go for the later
02:12 adriano86 TODO: {
02:12 adriano86 local $TODO = "Test not yet implemented";
02:12 adriano86 fail "Missing a test for X";
02:13 adriano86 whats wrong with this snippet
02:13 flussence_ std: TODO: { local $TODO = "Test not yet implemented"; fail "Missing a test for X"; }
02:13 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Variable $TODO is not predeclared at /tmp/SiUgmnwuon line 1:␤------> [32mTODO: { local $TODO[33m⏏[31m = "Test not yet implemented"; fail "Mis[0m␤Undeclared routine:␤    'local' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 121m␤»
02:13 flussence_ there you go; "local" isn't valid perl6.
02:14 adriano86 ooh
02:14 adriano86 now i get it
02:14 adriano86 i knew was gonna happen
02:14 Eevee haha
02:14 adriano86 dont tell me your questioning my perl6 knowledgeability!??
02:14 flussence_ did you by any chance get kicked out of the perl 5 channel before coming here?
02:15 adriano86 ye how u know
02:15 flussence_ just a hunch.
02:15 adriano86 good one
02:15 adriano86 u know my plan was..
02:15 adriano86 to step it up one level, so i came to perl6
02:15 donri You should now leave and go to #perl7
02:15 adriano86 guess the people in the chan 7 waiting for me uh?
02:15 adriano86 got a feelin i be meeting em real soon for some reason
02:15 flussence_ now if you don't have any actual problem, I'll be putting you on ignore until you calm down.
02:16 adriano86 nah its ok
02:16 adriano86 ill just talk to myself in perl7
02:16 adriano86 nobody talks bk there
02:16 adriano86 they all nice and polite since they is consisting of the only non-llama on this planet
02:16 adriano86 which is me myself
02:17 adriano86 but i guess yall already knew that one, as it equals the mindpower of a 1+1 calculation
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04:26 mberends .oO( a #perl7 channel would be the perfect place for all the adrianos )
04:29 mberends .oO( well, #perl666. we may want #perl7 for something else one day )
04:38 donri I wonder what will turn out to warrant a major version bump from Perl 6
04:40 mberends Perl 7 it is specced philosphically in S01 ;)
04:40 mberends s/it//
04:45 donri "Perl 6 should be malleable enough that it can evolve into the imaginary perfect language, Perl 7"  heh
04:46 * sorear drops by #perl6 for a little bit.
04:46 donri I don't think there can be one perfect language, there are different and incompatible paradigms that are useful for different situations
04:46 mberends nice to see ya, sorear
04:47 sorear fwiw, theorems are very very important in my kind of programming language work
04:47 sorear although I usually don't bother to write them down
04:47 sorear my mind likes to prove stuff in 3+ dimensions, serializing it into prose is a real pain
04:47 mberends donri: sure, S01 is not serious about perfection
04:48 donri Didn't think it was, read that quote as tongue-in-cheek
04:50 mberends sorear: +1, theory provides the guidelines within which we do sensible work.
04:52 mberends kind of like "you can't get there from here" type statements, or "you shouldn't go there from here"
04:53 sorear the backlog I just went through has you deriding a book for calling itself "Practical" and containing "axioms, lemmas, and theorems"
04:54 mberends yes. perhaps to my tunnel vision, I could not get anything practical out of that text.
04:54 mberends I would not mind if the book included the application of the theory.
04:55 * justatheory backs away slowly
04:55 * mberends backs away too, Justin Case
04:55 sorear I can't comment too much, I haven't read the book you're discussing
04:57 * sorear doesn't like the fact that "academic" is a term of derision these days
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04:58 mberends sorear: that divide has existed for a very long time afaik, and there is no smoke like that without fire. "ivory towers" and so on.
05:00 sorear btw
05:00 sorear current niecza weekly commits - 1 mberends, 2 moritz_, 3 sorear
05:00 mberends educators always seem to have struggled to provide sufficient "real world" content in their materials. I know, I'm one of them.
05:00 sorear if one of you want to claim the top spot, this is the week to do it :)
05:01 * mberends feels motivated
05:01 sorear (weeks begin and end at 1900 UTC Tuesday)
05:02 mberends I owe you one little rename-refactor anyway, now for some LHF...
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05:10 sorear mberends: what directions are you interested in persuing?
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05:13 mberends sorear: directions are limited by my limited skills, but spectest coverage in general, masak's coding contest examples, any changes that get more existing P6 code running on Niecza.
05:14 mberends essentially trying to indirectly pull up the bus number
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05:40 jnthn o/ from Taipei
05:41 * jnthn is very jetlagged; don't expect any sense out of me today :)
05:42 mberends /o jnthn, good to see you online from Taipei anyway
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05:46 * jnthn is glad to have made it here safely
05:47 * sorear drops back out, most likely for multiple days
05:48 jnthn It seems like a pretty cool place, from this morning's wandering around. By now though I'm mostly at the point of feeling too tired to walk around and see stuff.
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05:53 tadzik morning zebras
05:55 mberends hi tadzik
05:59 jnthn o/ tadzik
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06:52 deskmsn hi guys
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06:59 moritz_ good morning
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09:38 dan___ helo, I have big file with entries in this format:   CX      Christmas Island        --   Which is 2 characters followed variable number of spaces then country name followed by spaces and --, I need to extract the country names only.. can someone show me how can that be done in perl6?
09:41 moritz_ rakudo: my $line = 'CX  Christmas Island        --   '; $line ~~ s/^\w\w\S+//; $line ~~ s/<[\s\-]>*$//; say $line
09:41 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«CX  Christmas Island        --   ␤»
09:41 moritz_ rakudo: my $line = 'CX  Christmas Island        --   '; $line ~~ s/^\w\w\s+//; $line ~~ s/<[\s\-]>*$//; say $line
09:41 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Christmas Island        --   ␤»
09:42 moritz_ rakudo: my $line = 'CX  Christmas Island        --   '; $line ~~ s/^\w\w\s+//; $line ~~ s/[\s|\-]+$//; say $line
09:42 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Christmas Island␤»
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09:42 moritz_ right, rakudo doesn't like backslashed sequences in char classes :(
09:43 dan___ moritz_: is that considered a todo or something we will need to adopt to?
09:43 moritz_ dan___: it's a todo
09:43 moritz_ rakudo: my $line = 'CX  Christmas Island        --   '; $line ~~ s/^\w\w\s+//; $line ~~ s/<+space+[-]>+$//; say $line
09:43 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of - as character range; in Perl 6 please use .. at line 22, near "]>+$//; sa"␤»
09:43 moritz_ rakudo: my $line = 'CX  Christmas Island        --   '; $line ~~ s/^\w\w\s+//; $line ~~ s/<+space+[\-]>+$//; say $line
09:43 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Christmas Island␤»
09:44 moritz_ dan___: other compilers do it better
09:44 moritz_ niecza: my $line = 'CX  Christmas Island        --   '; $line ~~ s/^\w\w\s+//; $line ~~ s/<+space+[\-]>+$//; say $line
09:44 p6eval niecza v3-80-g3cc93a7: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method space in class Cursor␤  at /tmp/bxy51HabRU line 1 (MAIN C3_ANON @ 4)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1038 (CORE Regex.ACCEPTS @ 4)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1044 (CORE _substitute @ 3)␤
09:44 p6eval ..at /tmp/bxy51…
09:44 dan___ mmm
09:44 moritz_ niecza: my $line = 'CX  Christmas Island        --   '; $line ~~ s/^\w\w\s+//; $line ~~ s/<[-]>+$//; say $line
09:44 p6eval niecza v3-80-g3cc93a7: OUTPUT«Christmas Island        --   ␤»
09:44 moritz_ niecza: my $line = 'CX  Christmas Island        --   '; $line ~~ s/^\w\w\s+//; $line ~~ s/<[\s\-]>+$//; say $line
09:44 p6eval niecza v3-80-g3cc93a7: OUTPUT«Christmas Island␤»
09:44 moritz_ niecza does the \s in the char class just fine
09:44 moritz_ sorear++
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09:47 dan___ moritz_: Since niecza is better in that area, do you recommend removing rakudo and getting niecza?
09:48 moritz_ dan___: don't remove rakudo, install both :-)
09:48 moritz_ dan___: niecza is less feature complete in other areas (multi dispatch and builtins, for example)
09:49 dan___ moritz_: I should kinda split my scripts into (more niecza compatable) and (more rakudo compatable) I think.. works for me..
09:50 moritz_ dan___: if you have some scripts that work on both compilers, but produce different results, please tell us. Such information is very valuable for adding stuff to the test suite
09:50 dan___ moritz_: where should bug reports be sent?
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09:50 dan___ moritz_: do you have a ready tool for it?
09:52 moritz_ dan___: niecza bugs go to https://github.com/sorear/niecza/issues and rakudo bugs to mailto:rakudobug@perl.org
09:52 moritz_ dan___: if you don't know which one is correct, just ask us here
09:53 dan___ moritz_: not a git user so I will use the email
09:54 moritz_ dan___: you don't need any git knowledge for the bug tracker, it's just a web interface like any other
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09:55 dan___ moritz_: ah, okey..
09:56 moritz_ niecza: $_ = 'foo'; say /f/
09:56 p6eval niecza v3-80-g3cc93a7: OUTPUT«Regex()<instance>␤»
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10:42 colomon rakudo: my $line = 'CX  Christmas Island        --  '; $line ~~ m/^\w\w \s+ (\S.*\S) \s+ \-\-/; say $0;
10:42 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Christmas Island␤»
10:42 colomon rakudo: my $line = 'CX  Christmas Island        --  '; $line ~~ m/^\w\w \s+ (\S.*\S) \s+ \-\-$/; say $0;
10:42 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«␤»
10:43 colomon rakudo: my $line = 'CX  Christmas Island        --  '; $line ~~ m/^\w\w \s+ (\S.*\S) \s+ \-\-/; say $0;
10:43 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Christmas Island␤»
10:43 moritz_ that (\S.*\S) is a neat trick
10:43 moritz_ '--' also works instead of \-\-
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10:44 colomon I still haven't gotten used to things like '--' working -- my solution was very p5.  :)
10:45 moritz_ rakudo: $_ = 'CX  Christmas Island        --  '; ms/\w\w (\S.*\S)/ && say $0
10:45 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Christmas Island        --␤»
10:46 moritz_ rakudo: $_ = 'CX  Christmas Island        --  '; ms/\w\w (\w.*\w)/ && say $0
10:46 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Christmas Island␤»
10:46 moritz_ those many \s+ just *had* to go away with an implied :s
10:47 * moritz_ doesn't think he actually used ms// after implementing it
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12:10 takadonet morning all
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12:19 * [Coke] drowns in output.
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12:25 tadzik 'afternoon
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12:46 colomon 'morning
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14:02 masak oh hai from GoOpen in Oslo.
14:02 moritz_ oh hai
14:03 masak oh, we had a troll visiting tonight.
14:03 masak quite an obvious/flagrant one, it seems.
14:04 moritz_ which makes me notice that I haven't backlogged yet
14:05 masak somewhat oddly perhaps, even though I'll talk a lot about community tomorrow, I haven't managed to weave troll hugging into it all.
14:07 [Coke] I appreciate that we have troll huggers (thugs!) here, but I find it so exhausting. Easier by far to ban them.
14:07 [Coke] so, thanks for doing that, becaus3e I wouldn't. ;)
14:08 masak ;)
14:09 masak the troll from tonight came wanting help (with Perl 5), but was hostile and distracted, and meaningful communication wasn't really established.
14:13 [particle]1 is now known as [particle]
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14:19 masak mberends: I'm at a talk named "Art and Hacking in Syria". Arduino plays a vital role. \o/
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14:21 * [Coke] finds http://learnyouahaskell.com , which is the best introduction I've found so far.
14:22 masak I started following that, but got derailed. maybe I should give it another shot.
14:22 * moritz_ still has "Real World Haskell" on his bookshelf, and has read only the first few chapters
14:23 moritz_ mostly due to distraction too
14:25 tadzik you can read it to Ronja before she gets asleep :)
14:25 masak youngest Haskell code evar.
14:25 masak coder*
14:26 masak I wonder if structuring my free time more would entail a net good. making time plans and schedules seems to work for my working life; maybe it'd work for my free tuits as well?
14:26 moritz_ http://xkcd.com/874/
14:26 tadzik so appropriate
14:27 moritz_ masak: structuring free time breaks down as soon as you have a baby :-)
14:27 masak thanks; I'll keep that in mind. :P
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14:28 masak moritz_: the xkcd comic reminds me of an image someone tweeted where a child had written a TODO list in scrawly letters on a piece of paper.
14:28 masak * EAT ICE CREAM
14:28 masak * PLAY
14:28 masak that was it.
14:29 masak as I remember it, the twitterer was slightly envious of the simplicity of it all.
14:29 moritz_ :-)
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14:34 slavik1 there was an argument about what makes a language good on ubuntu forums ...
14:34 PerlJam slavik1: how sad.
14:34 slavik1 I just started listing some perl6 features/niceties
14:34 slavik1 :)
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14:35 moritz_ that's not what makes a language good
14:35 tadzik slavik1: link?
14:35 moritz_ you know it's good when you get your job done, have low maintenance and low learning costs
14:35 slavik1 moritz_: hence perl6 :P
14:36 PerlJam someone should do one of those "levels of a programmer" for Perl 6.
14:36 masak +1
14:36 colomon I think I've read the first three or so chapters of books on about four functional programming languages.
14:36 slavik1 PerlJam: levels of a programmer?
14:36 masak PerlJam: url?
14:37 colomon It always feels to me like they start off showing how beautiful it is, and then suddenly it gets horribly ugly when they actually try to do something real with it.
14:37 slavik1 colomon: yeah, I have noticed that
14:37 slavik1 colomon: I think it has to do more with programming in a functional manner than the languages themselves
14:38 masak colomon: sounds like the quote "Lisp is beautiful, but I've never seen a beautiful Lisp program"
14:38 colomon slavik1: I think it's a bit of both.
14:38 PerlJam slavik1: they come in different flavors but usually it's something like hello world from a first year student, then from someone with a degreee, then someone who's been on the job for 2 months, then on the job for 2 years, then 5 years, then as an "expert" and so forth
14:38 colomon ML was the worst offender, if I recall correctly.
14:38 slavik1 PerlJam: url to some existing stuff?
14:38 masak PerlJam: oh! that wasn't the one I was thinking of :)
14:39 mathw PerlJam: there's a Haskell one that gets ridiculously elaborate, based around 'factorial' I believe
14:39 PerlJam Here's another variant: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/04/the-eight-levels-of-programmers.html
14:39 colomon They started off with these beautiful recursive functions, but then explained that for basic efficiency reasons, you really should use these ugly hacks instead of those beautiful functions.
14:39 mathw somewhere in the middle is an extraordinarily long and convoluted implementation that uses comonads in a horribly gratuitious manner
14:39 PerlJam masak: were you thinking of this? http://www.indiangeek.net/wp-content/uploads/Programmer%20competency%20matrix.htm
14:40 PerlJam "comonads"?
14:40 PerlJam colomonads?  :-)
14:40 * moritz_ thought of the "levels of perl programmers" to which he currently can't find a link
14:40 PerlJam (sorry colomon :)
14:40 moritz_ level 1: often gets syntax errors he doesn't know how to resolve
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14:41 moritz_ level 2: gets the code running, but does things like: my @lines = <FILE>; for (@lines) { ... }
14:41 mathw PerlJam: yes, comonads
14:41 moritz_ level 3: understands contexts and basic regexes
14:41 PerlJam mathw: that's a new term for me.
14:41 moritz_ and so on
14:41 masak PerlJam: no. still looking.
14:41 masak PerlJam: ah. this. http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20070929221511/http://prometheus.frii.com/~gnat/yapc/2000-stages/
14:42 masak I remember liking that one.
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14:43 moritz_ masak: that might be the one I had in the back of my mind too
14:43 mathw PerlJam: I suggest not worrying about them, they make my head hurt
14:44 PerlJam Well, there should be a "Stages of a programmer"  for any lanuage.  Stage 1:  Is happy when he gets his code to compile.  Stage 2: Happy when he gets his code to execute properly.  Stage 3:  Can read and understand code he wrote yesterday  Stage 4: Can read and understand code he wrote 6 months ago  Stage 5: Knows the code he wrote 6 months ago is crap now.  etc.
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14:45 moritz_ Stage 6: Knows the code he will write in 6 months is crap
14:45 slavik1 PerlJam: I def reached stage 6
14:45 slavik1 moritz_: that's stage 8
14:45 PerlJam moritz_: The older I get, the more I think I used to be smarter than I am now.  :)
14:46 slavik1 stage 7: knows the code he wrote will look like crap 6 months into the future
14:46 slavik1 undergrad students think they know everything
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14:46 slavik1 grad students know they know nothing
14:46 slavik1 phd's know that nobody knows anything
14:47 moritz_ PerlJam: well, physiological research shows that brain volume peaks at age ~14, iirc
14:47 PerlJam Maturity is getting comfortable with knowing that there are lots of things you don't know and moreover, there are lots of things you will never know.
14:49 PerlJam BTW, perhaps I'm just overly sensitive to this, but I've noticed more Perl 6 ideas leaking into Perl 5 thinking.  For instance, yesterday someone on #p5p wanted people to review his patch to make a [+]-alike in Perl 5
14:49 PerlJam (well, a reduce-a-like, not just addition)
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14:50 PerlJam And I saw some mention of gather/take on #perl
14:50 moritz_ PerlJam: p5p has become more open-minded and fast paced in the last year or so
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15:07 masak rakudo: say "..\n..".lines>>.comb.perl
15:07 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«((".", "."), (".", "."))␤»
15:07 masak what if I want ([".", "."], [".", "."]) ?
15:08 masak rakudo: say "..\n..".lines>>.comb>>.Array.perl
15:08 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Method 'Array' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/SQuy3sUGg2␤»
15:08 moritz_ rakudo: say "..\n..".lines>>.comb.item.perl
15:08 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«(".", ".", ".", ".")␤»
15:08 moritz_ I think that's wrong
15:08 masak why?
15:08 masak looks right to me.
15:09 masak but sometimes I want a list of arrays and not a list of lists.
15:09 moritz_ because item context shouldn't flatten, by the version of spec I happen to remember :-)
15:09 masak :)
15:09 moritz_ rakudo: say "..\n..".lines>>.comb>>.item.perl
15:09 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«(".", ".", ".", ".")␤»
15:09 masak having a way to do that would make things a bit nicer for the kata in a few hours...
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15:10 moritz_ rakudo: say ([.comb] for "..\n..".lines)
15:10 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«. .. .␤»
15:10 moritz_ rakudo: say ([.comb] for "..\n..".lines).perl
15:10 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«([".", "."], [".", "."])␤»
15:10 masak rakudo: say (1,2,3).Array
15:10 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Method 'Array' not found for invocant of class 'Parcel'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/N6BS8b4jDj␤»
15:10 masak any reason that casting method shouldn't exist?
15:11 moritz_ simply NYI I think
15:11 masak moritz_: right, '[.comb] for' works, and I could use that. but it would be nice with just a chain of methods.
15:11 * masak submits rakudobug
15:11 moritz_ or maybe .slice aka .lol should do it
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15:12 masak TimToady: what do you think?
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15:25 colomon [.comb] works? Rakudo++
15:25 moritz_ why shouldn't it? :-)
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15:26 colomon I can't recall ever seeing [ ] used with a method.
15:26 moritz_ colomon: it's just an array constructor
15:26 masak you seem to overestimate the magicality of [ ]
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15:26 moritz_ [ $_.comb ]
15:26 colomon ah.
15:26 colomon Rakudo--, then.  :p
15:26 masak I'm more happy that a statement-terminator 'for' cam be used as a list comprehension. \o/
15:27 mathw list comprehensions are awesome
15:32 masak I just showed a fellow GoOpen-er how I was using tote for my kata. he told me about ':help autocmd' in vim.
15:34 moritz_ nice one
15:34 masak aye. wonder if Emacs has similar hooks.
15:34 moritz_ so you can run stuff after every :w
15:34 masak right.
15:34 moritz_ or you could just read from an inotify daemon :-)
15:35 masak aye, and be limited to Linux.
15:36 moritz_ well, you can chose between being limited to an OS or an editor :-)
15:36 masak I think I'd like for the eventual long-term tote to use inotify, but fall back on a platform-independent solution.
15:39 flussence_ rakudo: #`<!-- playing around with that code above, I ended up writing this nonsense: --> say lines[.comb] for $*IN.get
15:39 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,Land
15:39 p6eval ..der Äck…
15:42 masak https://gist.github.com/881437 # this is the code I tend to end up writing for the minesweeper kata
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15:42 masak last time the &neighbors sub was outside, but this time it ended up inside &sweep, losing a bunch of initialization.
15:43 masak ...and I get to showcase nested subs! \o/
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15:59 arnsholt masak: How long are you in Oslo?
16:01 masak arnsholt: only until tomorrow afternoon.
16:02 * masak decides to time himself with the kata one last time
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16:03 moritz_ seems that waiting for a file to be written with inotify is as easy as
16:03 moritz_ inotifywait $filename -e close_write
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16:19 masak 15 minutes. wow, this kata stuff really works. ;)
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16:22 masak see you after the public demo of Perl 6 ;)
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18:53 mberends phew, marathon phone and skype calls. now JIT for #phasers :)
18:54 masak joined #perl6
18:54 masak I just showed ~50 people how to implement Minesweeper in Perl 6 \o/
18:54 mberends \o/ \o/
18:54 mberends (applause)
18:55 masak I had time for everything, including some of the crazier refactors. ;)
18:55 mberends masak++
18:55 masak I don't think I cured anyone of the myth of Perl as a family of obfuscated languages...
18:55 masak ...but I might have inspired a few to have a closer look.
18:56 masak have to get back to the event. see you o/
18:56 mberends o/
18:59 Util masak++
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19:21 Util tadzik++   # For excellent blogging and socializing
19:21 Util mberends++ # For all the Jasmin to come...
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20:14 [Coke] Util++
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20:18 donri donri--  # for messing with his own karma
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20:23 colomon masak++
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20:28 dalek roast: 3977901 | (Patrick Abi Salloum)++ | S02-builtin_data_types/parcel.t:
20:28 dalek roast: Added tests for RT86764 Array method on parcel
20:28 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/3977901182
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20:32 dalek rakudo: b556bc7 | patrickas++ | src/core/Parcel.pm:
20:32 dalek rakudo: Add Array method to Parcel RT86764
20:32 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b556bc7e3d
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20:40 donri rakudo: say "foo".encode.perl
20:41 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«.new(contents => [102, 111, 111])␤»
20:41 donri Not very useful eh?
20:48 dalek rakudo: 9739a91 | (Martin Berends)++ | tools/test_summary.pl:
20:48 dalek rakudo: [tools/test_summary.pl] make the git log command also work with git 1.5.x
20:48 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9739a912f5
20:48 dalek rakudo: 4ab84a1 | (Martin Berends)++ | src/core/Parcel.pm:
20:48 dalek rakudo: Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
20:48 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4ab84a132d
20:48 flussence_ .new? That looks wrong.
20:49 moritz_ should be Buf.new
20:50 donri rakudo: say Buf.new(contents => [102, 111, 111]).decode.perl
20:50 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«""␤»
20:50 donri rakudo: say Buf.new(contents => [102, 111, 111]).perl
20:50 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«.new(contents => [])␤»
20:50 flussence_ er...
20:50 donri =)
20:52 moritz_ rakudo: say Buf.new(102, 111, 111).perl
20:52 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«.new(contents => [102, 111, 111])␤»
20:52 moritz_ rakudo: say Buf.perl
20:52 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Buf␤»
20:52 flussence_ rakudo: say unpack('H*', 0x0102030405).perl # does this work in p6?
20:52 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &unpack␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/DD4lMHhsg2␤»
20:52 flussence_ aww
20:52 donri rakudo: say Buf.new(102, 111, 111).decode.perl
20:53 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«"foo"␤»
20:53 donri So the .perl is not only wrong, but also wrong?
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20:55 flussence_ (I'll suggest that for a GSoC project if it's still open for ideas... make the binary stuff work!)
20:58 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has $.foo = 3 }; say A.new.perl
20:58 p6eval rakudo 841b2c: OUTPUT«A.new(foo => 3)␤»
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21:04 dalek rakudo: d5ccf9f | moritz++ | src/core/Buf.pm:
21:04 dalek rakudo: fix Buf.new
21:04 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d5ccf9fa05
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21:04 flussence_ \o/
21:07 masak moritz_++
21:08 masak <donri> donri--  # for messing with his own karma
21:08 masak donri: and with causality, it seems! :)
21:09 masak boy, I wish I had a time-turner sometimes. I'm going to force myself to do some slides manicure for an hour, and then go to bed.
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21:10 masak I just came back from a "Grand Panel", much like the one last year at GoOpen. TimToady was on it last year. allison was on it this year.
21:11 moritz_ masak: https://gist.github.com/882070 my minesweeper solution
21:11 masak Perl actually got a small snide comment from one of the panelists (I forget who), but was defended *on Twitter* by someone in the audience.
21:11 * masak looks
21:12 moritz_ way too many interuptions while writing though :(
21:12 masak the tweet said something like "I actually find Perl kinda interesting". in my vanity, I tell myself that that person had just seen my kata demo. :P
21:12 moritz_ :-)
21:13 masak moritz_: nice with the min and the max. I didn't think of that.
21:13 masak I still think minmax is a solution without a problem, by the way.
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21:15 masak one thing that I toyed with was turning empties into 0s and bombs into 1s, and then just [+]-ing over eight .rotated versions of that field of bits.
21:15 masak I noticed with happiness that .rotate already does nested arrays per the spec.
21:16 masak ...but then I realized that what I needed wasn't a 'rotate' operation so much as a 'shift and if things go over the edge, throw them away' operation
21:16 masak 'shift' as in bitops, not as in Perl.
21:17 moritz_ masak: I also thought about padding everything with 1 row/col of 0s at each side
21:17 moritz_ and then increment in the 8 neighboring cells
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21:17 moritz_ and the slice out the board
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21:23 flatwhatson_ "The path of the righteous programmer is beset on all sides by the inequities of the clueless and the tyranny of evil project managers. Blessed is he, who in the name of achievement and solid technology, shepherds the users through the valley of ineptitude, for he is truly his customer's keeper and the finder of lost solutions. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to d
21:23 flatwhatson_ eploy without testing. And you will know my name is zedshaw when I lay my software upon thee."
21:24 tadzik niice
21:25 bluescreen10 left #perl6
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21:27 masak ...hotel wifi decided I had had one full day of wifi and needed to re-apply...
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21:28 masak moritz_: if I could get the padding without the coordinates changing (maybe with @array{} indexing), I wouldn't feel a need for a cousin to .rotate that shifted instead of rotating :)
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21:33 masak hey, look what I found: http://twitter.com/denisb/statuses/50249722878885888
21:33 masak it was a bit unfortunate... I went right after the Ruby guy, and he didn't finish.
21:34 masak but that was because he was tidy enough to spend time setting up BDD tests.
21:41 masak it was definitely a growing experience doing a kata in public, as part of a group of people with different language backgrounds solving the same problem. I'd like to do it again sometime.
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21:43 PerlJam masak: How much practice did you have before you did it in public?
21:47 masak I can quantify that pretty accurately. I practiced three times. once yesterday and twice today.
21:47 masak first time I took ~30 minutes to solve the whole thing. third time I took ~15 minutes. I was surprised.
21:50 PerlJam masak: I did it once yesterday the stupid way (using no Per6isms at all) in about 40 minutes with my kids constantly interrupting me.  After solving it once I figured I could half that time without much difficulty.
21:50 masak right.
21:50 masak in the first time, I found myself pausing a lot thinking about choices.
21:50 masak second and third time, less and less so.
21:52 PerlJam It seems like it would be interesting to use these katas as a learning tool.   Put your code up on a big screen as you type and have the audience ask questions about what you're doing.
21:52 masak that's basically what happened here.
21:53 PerlJam okay, but for learning it would have to happen slower :)
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21:53 masak troo
21:54 masak the audience was clearly following what I was doing. the two times I got a bit stuck, someone shouted out what I was missing. ;)
21:54 PerlJam simple katas like this also are amenable to solutions in multiple styles.  Mine would look roughly the same in Perl 5 as Perl 6, mortiz's would showcase more Perl 6
21:54 PerlJam etc.
21:55 masak absolutely.
21:55 masak just doing five independently evolved Perl 6 solutions would be interesting in itself.
21:55 masak someone should do a contest along those lines.
21:57 PerlJam masak++   :-)
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22:05 masak I could like this channel just for the free karma. :P
22:05 broquaint Is Web in a usable state ATM and if not are there alternatives?
22:05 masak no, and yes.
22:05 masak Web.pm is in a state where there are interesting things to be pulled out of it.
22:05 masak the most interesting things are already projects on their own that just happen to be in that repo.
22:06 masak (and not especially related to the Web namespace)
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22:07 broquaint Thanks, masak :)
22:07 broquaint If I wanted to write a web app where's the best place to start?
22:07 masak tell us more about your constraints/requirements.
22:07 masak do you need it to be more than static pages?
22:08 masak do you need it to be faster than reeeeeeallly slow?
22:08 masak because right now, those two are more or less in opposition.
22:09 broquaint Dynamic pages and speed would be good :)
22:09 masak with November, we managed to get a GET request down to ~3 seconds. but that was without a framework -- we did our own makeshift CGI.pm clone.
22:10 broquaint Hrm, interesting.
22:10 masak that was on alpha, which was faster than current Rakudo.
22:10 masak please don't say "interesting" about the makeshift CGI.pm clone. :P
22:10 masak I don't want an empire of Perl 6 webapps to be built on that.
22:10 masak really not.
22:11 broquaint Fair enough.
22:11 broquaint What I really want are Perl6's grammars.
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22:12 broquaint What's the 5->6 interop like ATM?
22:13 masak c.f. blizkost.
22:14 broquaint Thanks again, masak++ :)
22:14 masak the status of which jnthn and, hm, sorear?, can probably tell you more about.
22:15 tadzik broquaint: my Dancer port was quite fast, but quite primitive too
22:15 tadzik that's probably related :)
22:15 masak tadzik: can you quantify "quite fast"?
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22:16 tadzik masak: It didn't seem "awfully slow" to me
22:16 tadzik which is "quite fast" for Rakudo
22:16 masak :)
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22:17 tadzik and speaking of grammars and frameworks... where is this
22:17 tadzik .g grammar-based dispatch
22:17 phenny tadzik: http://www.training-classes.com/providers/00/90/9061_scope.php
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22:17 tadzik .g grammar-based dispatch ttjjss
22:17 phenny tadzik: http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/2010/08/09/so-you-want-to-write-a-perl-6-module/
22:17 tadzik no!
22:17 masak bad google!
22:17 tadzik broquaint: see http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/grammar-dispatching-%E2%80%93-a-step-further/
22:18 tadzik well, duckduckgo is doing only a little bit better
22:20 broquaint Thanks, tadzik, will look into it tomorrow :)
22:20 masak duckduckgo++ # silly name, nice search engine
22:20 tadzik also, there is supernovus' ww6 framework
22:20 tadzik https://github.com/supernovus/ww6/
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22:20 masak does anyone have a source for the "community's rewrite of the community" quote?
22:20 jnthn It used to be quoted on dev.perl.org/perl6/ iirc
22:20 jnthn maybe still is
22:20 sbp masak: http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/the-wish-the-tuning-fork-and-the-one-true-heir
22:20 sbp right there on your own blog
22:20 sbp it's the source of everything!
22:21 sbp earliest I've found so far is http://slashdot.org/story/00/07/19/203221/Larry-Wall-Announces-Perl-6
22:21 sbp so it's pre 19 Jul 2000 at least...
22:23 sbp ugh, the link to http://conferences.oreillynet.com/perl4/ from http://use.perl.org/articles/00/07/19/161217.shtml is broken
22:23 masak so it's bound to have been on that cruise, right.
22:23 masak day after the cup was thrown.
22:23 masak mug.
22:24 masak whatever.
22:27 sbp there is a Proceedings of the Perl Conference 4.0 book, by O'Reilly I think
22:27 sbp perhaps somebody here has it?
22:28 sbp nevermind, it's on Google Books snippet view
22:28 sbp .title http://books.google.co.uk/books?ei=ZSKJTc_JDojAhAet76m6Dg
22:28 phenny sbp: Google Books
22:28 sbp and there's only one result for "rewrite of" in the book, on p.134
22:28 sbp which isn't related
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22:31 sbp the context on http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol5_3/tpj0503-0001.html suggests 18 Jul 2000 for the utterance
22:32 sbp which is actually the mug throwing day
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22:32 masak` hm, the 4th State of the Onion just says "Perl 6 is going to be designed by the community."
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22:37 sbp masak:
22:37 sbp The community stopped and shrugged
22:37 sbp That day that Orwant threw his mugs,
22:37 sbp And Le Mur Grande cast it all to hugs
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22:38 masak aww ;)
22:39 sbp lost two lines because of flooding
22:39 sbp let's try again, stupid freenode
22:39 sbp —
22:39 sbp The community stopped and shrugged
22:39 sbp That day that Orwant threw his mugs,
22:39 sbp And Le Mur Grande cast it all to hugs
22:39 sbp So that the world would soon see pugs:
22:39 sbp May all our Perl6 lack of bugs!
22:39 sbp —
22:39 masak sbp++
22:40 sbp they added some new throttling code to irc-seven, it's really very annoying
22:40 sbp especially because it says your lines have been "throttled"
22:40 sbp meaning, actually, to death: the lines are not sent to the recipient
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22:43 donri Incompatible versions of `core_ops' oplib. Found 3.2.0 but loaded 3.1.0  # :(
22:44 donri for my own HLL after new parrot build
22:46 masak maybe recompile the HLL?
22:46 Tene donri: you've got old stuff deployed or used or something that needs rebuilt
22:46 Tene donri: use strace to find out what it is, if it's not otherwise clear
22:46 donri i did setup.pir build
22:47 donri oh wait setup.pir clean build
22:47 donri now works :D
22:47 donri didn't see clean documented anywhere but took a guess
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22:57 masak Tene++
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23:08 masak 'night, #perl6
23:08 tadzik o/
23:08 jnthn o/
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23:14 jnthn Ah, breakfast time, bbl. :)
23:14 Tene morning jnthn
23:14 jnthn morning, Tene
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