Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-03-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:34 sorear good * #perl6
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01:35 sorear phenny: tell pmurias STD_P5 frontend.
01:35 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when pmurias is around.
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01:36 sorear niecza: grammar Foo { token identifier { \w+ } }; say "  abc   " ~~ / :lang(Foo) <identifier> /
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01:36 p6eval niecza v3-82-g1dc43eb: OUTPUT«abc␤»
01:37 sorear phenny: tell masak If you want rules to be useful for languages other than Perl 6, redefine token ws to match "ignorable whitespace"
01:37 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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02:45 mberends lue: ping
02:49 sorear hello mberends
02:49 mberends phenny: tell lue I think it may help your understanding of the  to-compile-or-not-to-compile question to research the difference between just-in-time compiling (JIT) and ahead-of-time compiling (AOT). Mono (used is Niecza) uses both options.
02:49 phenny mberends: I'll pass that on when lue is around.
02:50 mberends hello sorear
02:51 sorear it's not a dichotomy; Mono uses both options *at the same time*
02:51 mberends phenny, tell lue s/is Niecza/in Niecza/
02:51 phenny mberends: I'll pass that on when lue is around.
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02:51 mberends sorear: :-)
02:51 cbk_ Anyone know the current status of threads in Perl6?
02:52 sorear niecza: use Threads; ::Threads::Thread.new({ say 2 while 1 }); say 3 while 1;
02:52 p6eval niecza v3-82-g1dc43eb:
02:52 p6eval ..OUTPUT«(timeout)␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2␤2�
02:53 sorear niecza: use Threads; sub out($x) { my $i; $i++ until $i == 1000000; say $x }; ::Threads::Thread.new(out 2 while 1 }); out 3 while 1;
02:53 p6eval niecza v3-82-g1dc43eb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Any()Unable to parse argument list at /tmp/UYRqF57WnC line 1:␤------> [32m000000; say $x }; ::Threads::Thread.new([33m⏏[31mout 2 while 1 }); out 3 while 1;[0m␤Couldn't find final ')'; gave up at /tmp/UYRqF57WnC line 1:␤------> [32m;
02:53 p6eval ..say $x }; ::…
02:54 sorear niecza: use Threads; sub out($x) { my $i; $i++ until $i == 1000000; say $x }; ::Threads::Thread.new(out(2) while 1 }); out(3) while 1;
02:54 p6eval niecza v3-82-g1dc43eb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Any()Unable to parse argument list at /tmp/wi2RrcdwwA line 1:␤------> [32m000000; say $x }; ::Threads::Thread.new([33m⏏[31mout(2) while 1 }); out(3) while 1;[0m␤Couldn't find final ')'; gave up at /tmp/wi2RrcdwwA line 1:␤------>
02:54 p6eval ..[32m say $x }; :…
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02:54 sorear niecza: use Threads; sub out($x) { my $i; $i++ until $i == 1000000; say $x }; ::Threads::Thread.new({ out(2) while 1 }); out(3) while 1;
02:54 p6eval niecza v3-82-g1dc43eb: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: Unable to resolve method Numeric in class Any␤  at  line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0)␤  at /tmp/psrTxW2FU3 line 0 (MAIN out @ 0)␤  at /tmp/psrTxW2FU3 line 1 (MAIN C2_ANON @ 3)␤  at  line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0)␤»
02:54 sorear niecza: use Threads; sub out($x) { my $i = 0; $i++ until $i == 1000000; say $x }; ::Threads::Thread.new({ out(2) while 1 }); out(3) while 1;
02:54 p6eval niecza v3-82-g1dc43eb: OUTPUT«(timeout)␤3␤2␤3␤2␤3␤2␤3␤»
02:54 sorear \o/
02:54 mberends \o/
02:55 mberends cbk_: the Perl 6 threads spec has not yet been written, so Perl 6 threading implementations are all highly experimental.
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02:57 cbk_ mberends, yes I understand that, I just wanted to know how much was working.   I'm trying to write a simple multi-thread script.  Nothing really fancy.
02:58 cbk_ I'll happily play around with that example code...... Thanks
02:58 mberends Rakudo + Zavolaj can run fork(), if that helps
03:02 cbk_ How do I install Thread support.  I get this error: Unable to find module 'Threads' in the @*INC directories.
03:05 mberends cbk_: you would need to install Niecza: https://github.com/sorear/niecza
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03:09 * mberends watches the Threads example run locally, printing about one $x per second :-)
03:10 cbk_ mberends, looks like too much time/work for me to take on right now.
03:10 mberends ok
03:10 cbk_ mberends, what does the :: thingy mean?
03:11 mberends cbk_: it seems to be a namespace kinda thing, but I'm not really sure
03:12 cbk_ o
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04:03 mberends .oO( if the Synopses are brief summaries, where are the details? )
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04:09 allbery_b @Larry's heads, rakudo/niecza source code, etc.
04:10 mberends :(
04:13 mberends searching for something simple, "what is the P6 equivalent of the P5 'each' ?" becomes a merry Easter egg hunt.
04:19 diakopter the source code is even briefer summaries...
04:19 TimToady that is where a decent p5-to-p6 translator would be handy
04:19 TimToady but each is very special-purpose
04:20 TimToady there's nothing correspondingly special-purpose in p6
04:20 TimToady iterators are handled differently
04:24 mberends moritz_++ documents what I was looking for under "Loops" in http://perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6#post_03
04:26 mberends TimToady: thanks for the 5-to-6 suggestion :)
04:28 mberends rakudo: my %a="b"=>2,"c"=>3; for %a.kv -> $d,$e {say $d,$e;}
04:28 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«b2␤c3␤»
04:28 diakopter one could call it the 5->6 translator vvi, or EventHorizonTimeDilation, for short
04:30 * diakopter digs deep and finds too much snark for one nick
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04:34 allbery_b I was going to mention .kv but my p6 knowledge keeps getting swapped out :(
04:35 mberends yeah, I had a hunch it would be something like that, just feel like RTFM sometimes :)
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04:39 mberends I'm implementing hashes in C, so it seems they could benefit from iterators too
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04:55 sorear each is one of those mistakes that Perl 6 is trying to avoid
04:56 TimToady we're trying to avoid each mistake :)
04:56 sorear it was designed back when SMP wasn't cool
04:56 TimToady smile when you say "designed"
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05:04 TimToady rules are too easy to use by accident when we mean token...
05:05 * TimToady wonders idly whether we should rename the :r thing to "rule" and rename the :s thing to something beginning with "s" that is de-huffmanized
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05:11 diakopter what's :s
05:12 TimToady :sigspace
05:12 diakopter oh yeahz
05:12 diakopter spacey
05:12 TimToady space-the-final-frontier
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05:13 diakopter namegames are fun
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05:13 diakopter stopgap
05:13 TimToady except the whole point is that the space is the part you *don't* want to think about
05:13 Jeffzworld hello I'd like to join you guys in developing
05:14 diakopter the pier is long but the cliff is steep
05:14 TimToady Jeffzworld: what are your interests?
05:14 Jeffzworld I'm familar with unix and shell scripting
05:15 TimToady how did you find us?
05:15 Jeffzworld Linux, SAP, java, basketball..
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05:16 * TimToady was wearing a LinuxWorld hat earlier today...
05:16 Jeffzworld i went to perl.org wanting learn more about the language
05:16 Jeffzworld *to
05:17 Jeffzworld i saw your developing perl 6
05:17 Jeffzworld i recently graduated from college with a degree in management information systems
05:17 TimToady there are lots of different ways to help out
05:17 TimToady doubtless there are various ways we could improve our workflow :)
05:18 TimToady though "management" of an open source project is more like cat-herding, mostly...
05:18 Jeffzworld if I don't keep programming my skills will atrophy, so lets get started
05:19 TimToady then you want to find a pet project that could be done in Perl 6, and try to make it work
05:19 Jeffzworld like what kind of stuff needs to done
05:19 TimToady not only will you learn some Perl 6, but you'll help us find all the holes in our documentation
05:20 diakopter Jeffzworld: maybe take some code you've written before for something else, and rewrite it in Perl 6
05:20 TimToady well...some folks have been working on writing examples on rosettacode.org
05:20 TimToady those are fun
05:21 * diakopter agrees
05:21 Jeffzworld i wrote a script that replicates the basename utility
05:22 Jeffzworld what kind of things are yoou guys developing for perl 6?
05:22 TimToady well, lots of tests
05:22 Jeffzworld how is it different from perl?
05:22 TimToady it basically fixes most of the warts of Perl 5
05:23 TimToady it's a different surface syntax, somewhat different semantics, but same underlying philosphy of programming
05:24 TimToady it's simultaneously cleaner and more powerful than Perl 5
05:24 TimToady (but not yet faster...)
05:25 TimToady so I wouldn't program a CPU intensive program yet unless you want to do benchmarks for others to optimize against
05:25 Jeffzworld I'd like to see some code
05:25 TimToady http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Perl_6
05:25 TimToady you can compare Perl 6 snippets with the same thing in other languages
05:28 TimToady you can also play with code right here
05:28 TimToady perl6: say "Howdy, Jeffzworld!"
05:28 p6eval pugs, rakudo 792e86, niecza v3-82-g1dc43eb: OUTPUT«Howdy, Jeffzworld!␤»
05:28 TimToady all three of those implementations agree on this one :)
05:29 TimToady that doesn't always happen...
05:29 TimToady you can address each one individually too
05:30 TimToady rakudo: .say for 1,1,*+* ... *
05:30 p6eval rakudo 792e86:
05:30 p6eval ..OUTPUT«(timeout)␤8␤13␤21␤34␤55␤89␤144␤233␤377␤610␤987␤1597␤2584␤4181␤6765␤10946␤17711␤28657␤46368␤75025␤121393␤196418␤317811␤514229␤832040␤1346269␤2178309␤3524578␤5702887␤9227465␤14930352␤24157817␤39088169␤63245986␤102334155␤165580141␤267914296␤433494437␤701408733␤1134903170␤1836311903␤29…
05:30 TimToady hmm
05:30 TimToady rakudo: say (1,1,*+* ... *)[^20].join(' ')
05:30 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765␤»
05:34 TimToady perl 6 goes more in the direction of both function programming and OO
05:35 TimToady though you can program in an idiom that looks very similar to perl 5
05:35 quotemstr functional, you mean?
05:35 TimToady yeah
05:36 TimToady almost said FP, decided to expand the acronym, and blew it...
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05:37 TimToady in the fibonacci example there, *+* is a lambda (FP concept), while the .join is obviously OOish
05:38 quotemstr I like Okasaki's characteriation of functional programming as hiring a master chef and taking away all his knives.
05:38 TimToady that's what sous chefs are for :)
05:39 Jeffzworld how about something that removes non-ascii characters from strings
05:39 TimToady anyway, the knives are still there, they're just hiddin inside food processors
05:39 TimToady *hidden
05:40 TimToady Jeffzworld: that would likely be a one-liner in either p5 or p6
05:41 Jeffzworld what about if constructs, loops and variables, what libaries are available
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05:42 TimToady well, the control constructs and such are defined in the "synopses"
05:43 TimToady S04 in particular
05:43 Jeffzworld is there an API
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05:44 TimToady there are lots of APIs; which one are you interested in?
05:44 Jeffzworld i dono I'm just trying to get indroduced to the language
05:45 Jeffzworld introduced
05:45 TimToady are you familiar with Perl 5 at all?
05:46 Jeffzworld how about database connectivity?
05:46 TimToady there is some, but it's not my field of expertise
05:46 Jeffzworld What is your field of expertise?
05:47 TimToady linguistics, actually :)
05:47 Jeffzworld so you know foriegn lanaguages?
05:48 quotemstr Jeffzworld: What are you trying to do?
05:48 TimToady some, but mostly it's a matter of knowing how they work, not just learning a bunch of 'em
05:48 quotemstr TimToady: So I'm not the only coder who's also fascinated by linguistics.
05:49 quotemstr TimToady: And you'd know what the heck I meant if I said that Lisp were a language (family) isolate. :-)
05:49 TimToady "Used to be I couldn't spell lingrist, and now I are one!"
05:49 Jeffzworld yes
05:49 Jeffzworld isn't that a code used for formating resumes?
05:51 TimToady anyhoo, if you want to explore various doc options, see perl6.org and follow the Documentation links, and see what appeals to you
05:52 Jeffzworld I can script in unix, and write code in java.. i'm a beginginer at perl, but I need to know as much as possible
05:52 TimToady early perl borrowed a lot of ideas from Unix scripting, so some of that will be familiar
05:53 TimToady for comparisons to java, the rosettacode.org site would probably be the best
05:53 Jeffzworld my shell lets me run perl from the prompt
05:53 TimToady the perl6.org links will give you more tutorial-ish links
05:54 Jeffzworld i screwed up a interview at yahoo yesterday
05:54 TimToady there are lots of perl 5 resources, if you want to look at that first; it's a much more developed platform
05:54 TimToady p6 is still mostly a research project, and tends to appeal to early adopters at the moment
05:55 TimToady however, the 270 examples on rosettacode do in fact run correctly
05:55 Jeffzworld im pretty much a computer junkie right
05:55 Jeffzworld and i'm very good with them
05:55 Jeffzworld but I'm looking for all these jobs in the field
05:55 Jeffzworld and they all want you to interview be social
05:56 Jeffzworld i have major problems with that
05:56 quotemstr Unfortunately, there are other people.
05:56 TimToady oh, half of us in here are somewhere on the autistic spectrum :)
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05:56 Jeffzworld so how do i explain that to a potential employer
05:56 quotemstr Having accepted that, we should deal with it the best we can.
05:57 Jeffzworld all the jobs today say "great communicator"
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05:57 quotemstr Jeffzworld: By being rigidly formal. Nobody will fault you for speaking precisely.
05:57 TimToady even someone who is on the autistic spectrum can learn the rules as a kind of "foreigner"
05:58 Jeffzworld and i'm afraid to say look, i basically sit in front of a computer all day-- and I'll make your company money
05:58 quotemstr Fortunately, rules in the business world are a bit simpler than those involved in, say, dating.
05:58 TimToady there's a famous writing by Temple Grandin called "An Anthropologist from Mars", or some such
05:58 Jeffzworld expain this rididgy formal business
05:58 quotemstr Jeffzworld: Just shut up. Say what's needed and no more, and say what you mean as precisely as you can.
05:58 Jeffzworld i totally bombed a technical interview at yahoo
05:59 quotemstr Jeffzworld: So? If you bombed it because of a technical error, it was a technical error and not a social one.
05:59 quotemstr If you caller your interviewer's mother a goat, that's a different story.
06:00 Jeffzworld I messed up the first question
06:00 Jeffzworld they asked me what loads when linux boots
06:00 Jeffzworld i thought they were talking about the load for the gui
06:00 Jeffzworld but i guess they were just talking about the shell
06:01 quotemstr TimToady: Ah, nifty. The "Anthropologist on Mars" essay was written by the guy who wrote "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat"
06:01 TimToady I'd've guessed something like "grub"
06:01 TimToady yes, Oliver Sachs
06:01 TimToady *Sacks
06:01 quotemstr I would have asked the interviewer where he wanted me to start describing the process and what level of detail he wanted.
06:02 Jeffzworld i said it checks the disk space and loads the gui.. prompts u with a login
06:02 mberends http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/From-PowerUp-To-Bash-Prompt-HOWTO.html
06:02 Jeffzworld think he wanted me to say the bash profile and bashrc
06:03 TimToady I'd've probably said: Well, it depends on which level you're interested in, and many things happen on many levels
06:03 Jeffzworld do u guys know the osi model?
06:03 TimToady "It depends" makes you sound more like an expert, but then you'd better be ready to point out how it depends :)
06:04 TimToady Jeffzworld: well, it depends :)
06:04 Jeffzworld lol
06:04 quotemstr TimToady: Power flows into the processor's bus pin and instructs it to initialize its program counter to 0x1000. The BIOS then says, "Let there be DRAM!" And there is DRAM, and the BIOS sees that it is good. Then...
06:05 quotemstr Jeffzworld: Uh, vaguely? You have the physical layer, transport, datagram, application, and a few others I'm missing.
06:06 quotemstr Jeffzworld: Honestly, I wouldn't want to work at a company that required memorization of a list of arbitrary network layering divisions that doesn't come up in real use.
06:06 Jeffzworld session and presentation
06:06 TimToady I know far too much about CMIP than has ever turned out to be useful...
06:06 jnthn o/
06:06 phenny jnthn: 26 Mar 09:36Z <moritz_> tell jnthn that on latest nqp/ctmo, I have a test failure in the 3rd test of 55-multi-method.t: Ambiguous dispatch to multi 'bar'. Ambiguous candidates had signatures: (then an empty line)
06:06 phenny jnthn: 26 Mar 09:37Z <moritz_> tell jnthn (maybe related) was it intentional the that "Bump to latest Parrot" commit (4150953) just deleted a newline, and didn't actually change the parrot revision?
06:07 mberends o/ jnthn !
06:07 jnthn moritz_: oh, darn...how'd I screw the bump up... :)
06:07 quotemstr Jeffzworld: In general, if you're asked a question you can answer in a number of different ways, ask the questioner which way he'd prefer.
06:07 * jnthn has given his talks at OSCD.TW o/
06:07 jnthn *OSDC
06:07 TimToady yay
06:08 jnthn Just showed the compiler toolkit to make a little language, then got it to cross-compile to the CLR and ran the programs in the mini-language there too :-)
06:09 mberends w00t!
06:10 jnthn Wasn't that many twiddles to make it work :)
06:10 mberends jnthn: did you meet au++ in Taipei?
06:10 Jeffzworld are u guys familar with echo -n?
06:11 mberends yup
06:11 TimToady sure, probably knew about it before you were born
06:11 Jeffzworld can u just read $variable?
06:11 Jeffzworld afterwards
06:11 TimToady what do you mean by "read"?
06:11 jnthn mberends: Yes, though only briefly.
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06:12 TimToady echo isn't about reading...
06:12 Jeffzworld #!/bin/bash echo -n "Enter address" read $Address a=100000  while [ $a -gt 0 ] do ping $Address a='expr $a - 1' done
06:12 quotemstr Ah, I was wrong. The initial program counter value on BIOS-supporting machines is (void*)(intptr_t)-17
06:12 quotemstr According to the Coreboot documentation anyway.
06:13 TimToady ah, in Perl 6 that would generally be done with: my $address = prompt("Enter address");
06:14 quotemstr The neurons I used to store that can now never be used for something useful. Thanks for making me look that up. :-)
06:14 quotemstr TimToady: Does Perl6 have locatives?
06:14 TimToady in spots :)
06:15 quotemstr No typeglobs? :)
06:15 TimToady no typeglobs
06:15 quotemstr Good riddance.
06:17 mberends Jeffzworld: you see, `read` is a separate command from `echo`. But bash scripting is generally off topic in #perl6...
06:17 TimToady aliasing is done directly with := binding
06:17 Jeffzworld i thought echo -n was like unixes input thing
06:17 Jeffzworld like the buffered input stream reader in java
06:18 TimToady no, all it does is output
06:18 Jeffzworld -n asks for input
06:18 TimToady no
06:18 TimToady it suppresses the newline
06:18 Jeffzworld hmm
06:19 Jeffzworld ok well that's a crap shoot then
06:20 quotemstr Jeffzworld: I suggest further study.
06:20 Jeffzworld just checked the man page..
06:20 TimToady the Unix command set may be poorly designed, but it's not random in the sense you seem to be implying
06:21 TimToady it's certainly random in some other senses though
06:21 TimToady it's certainly "random" as in "arbitrary"
06:22 * sorear wanders back
06:22 sorear Jeffzworld: welcome!
06:22 Jeffzworld hello
06:22 sorear the unix command set evolved
06:25 sorear TimToady: Why did you add typeglobs to early Perl, instead of doing it as $main::{'$foo'} = 2 ?
06:25 quotemstr *cough* like Python *cough*
06:26 Jeffzworld well the echo, read construct still works
06:27 TimToady yes, but if you don't understand which part does which action, you can't really program using the bits separately
06:27 Jeffzworld echo tells the user to do something -n makes a new line so thats good, and then u read what they enter... u just don't use a $ sign in that construct.
06:27 TimToady $ means something different in shell than it does in Perl
06:27 TimToady -n makes *not* a newline
06:27 Jeffzworld i just fixed my ping script, i removed the $ sign. chmoded the permissions and now pinging google like 100,000 times
06:28 sorear ...why?
06:28 mberends LOL
06:28 TimToady you need to move beyond cargo-cult programming by understanding what the bits are actually doing
06:28 Jeffzworld cargo cult?
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06:29 Jeffzworld i want to learn how to write scripts to connect interfaces and protocals
06:29 sorear you are new here.  it's a reference to one of Feynman's writings, which I highly recommend
06:29 TimToady it's where we all start out in programming, but you sound a bit like you're stuck there, just throwing things together and hoping they work somehow
06:31 Jeffzworld ya kind of
06:31 Jeffzworld i need a mentor
06:31 sorear http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming
06:32 mberends Jeffzworld: most of us mentor each other in here, but please be patient because it's a volunteer effort.
06:33 TimToady also, mentors get tired of mentees that don't actually mentate.
06:33 Jeffzworld well the more I learn the better I'll get at it
06:34 mberends exactly, and then you'll mentor the next generation :-)
06:34 Jeffzworld young skywalker
06:34 TimToady I'd really suggest tackling a project that you find motivating; you can't really learn in a vacuum
06:35 sorear if you can't find a project, make one of your own.  that's what I did.
06:35 Jeffzworld how about something in calculus?
06:35 TimToady if that interests you
06:35 sorear moritz_ was working on an ODE system a few months ago
06:36 sorear you need to want something.
06:37 Jeffzworld Ordinary differencial equations?
06:37 TimToady that's a noun; you need a verb
06:37 sorear [By ODE do you mean]
06:38 mberends they were some kind of differential equations, describing harmonic oscillation I seem to recall.
06:39 sorear Jeffzworld: backlogging, you sound a lot like me.
06:40 Jeffzworld u mean anti social and stuff
06:40 Jeffzworld everyone asks me to fix their computer
06:41 Jeffzworld Sorear: are you in the bay? what do u mean?
06:41 sorear Well the anti-socialness seems to have worn off recently... I actually *feel* the loneliness now
06:42 Jeffzworld i just graduated college in december
06:42 sorear but generally speaking - mostly aimless twentysomethign person with technical skills
06:42 Jeffzworld its awful
06:42 Jeffzworld i moved back in with my parents
06:42 sorear I never left.
06:43 Jeffzworld are u by chance from the bay area?
06:43 sorear No, San Diego.
06:43 Jeffzworld i thought it would be easy to find a job once i had a degree
06:43 Jeffzworld but its not enough u have to like prove u have these skills
06:44 mberends found the differential equations page :-) http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/physical-modelling.html
06:44 sorear You can't learn to become a good programmer in three semesters.
06:44 Jeffzworld well i was using personal time to
06:45 Jeffzworld i made a gui in java as part of special project with a professor
06:45 sorear This may be relevant: http://norvig.com/21-days.html
06:49 mberends that supports the "more perspiration than inspiration" truism :)
06:54 sorear the inspiration has to come first.
06:54 sorear if I had been born 400 years ago, I would more or less know what to do with my life;
06:55 sorear it doesn't work that way now.
06:55 sorear I want to put the skills and knowledge I have now to use - but beyond that no clue.
07:00 quotemstr By the way: Okasaki's pure functional data structures thesis is brilliant.
07:05 * sorear out
07:13 Jeffzworld how do u the write command?
07:13 Jeffzworld how to use
07:14 mberends Jeffzworld: the most widely use Perl 6 write command is `say`, for example:
07:15 mberends rakudo: say "hello Jeffzworld";
07:15 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«hello Jeffzworld␤»
07:15 Jeffzworld well actaully i was trying to message a girl on the server
07:15 Jeffzworld i tried to install rakudo on my shell
07:16 Jeffzworld but it failed druing the build
07:16 mberends oh, I know very little about messaging with girls ;)
07:16 Jeffzworld and then i got all these banner messages warning me that i was using 150% disk space
07:16 mberends ouch!
07:16 Jeffzworld ya
07:17 diakopter that's a lot of space
07:17 mberends u srsly need more space
07:17 Jeffzworld its a shell account at my former university
07:17 Jeffzworld ssh
07:18 Jeffzworld what do u do for work?
07:18 mberends Rakudo needs, like, 400MB for a Rakudo installation
07:19 Jeffzworld i'll try it on my ubuntu
07:19 benabik When I was getting my BS, the only way to compile anything of decent size was to build it in the /tmp directory, which didn't count towards my quota.
07:19 mberends Jeffzworld: I teach people to program and manage databases for a living.
07:20 Jeffzworld really
07:20 Jeffzworld i just graduated with a degree in management information systems.. my focus was rdbms
07:21 Jeffzworld i would like to advance my programming skills a little..
07:21 mberends I helped get Perl 6 into databases after about 2 years of apprenticeship
07:22 Jeffzworld so it does have the ability to make database connections?
07:22 mberends currently only Postgres and MySQL, but that's a good start
07:23 Jeffzworld u need oracle in there
07:23 mberends nah
07:23 diakopter and mssql
07:23 mberends yes, for noobs
07:23 diakopter and odbc
07:23 Jeffzworld oracle is the most popular
07:24 Jeffzworld this may be open source but it would be good if it became a popular language used in business
07:24 diakopter mssql has more installations by far, actually
07:24 mberends I met the maintainers of the Perl 5 Oracle drivers, and they have lots of frustrations.
07:25 Jeffzworld lets build some perl 6 oracle drivers
07:25 mberends but yes, we should eventually go wherever the market is.
07:26 mberends Jeffzworld: the size of that task is huge, for reasons you will only understand after you have learned much more. But nice idea, anyway.
07:26 Jeffzworld im bored with my life
07:26 Jeffzworld i mine as well
07:26 Jeffzworld i have no job
07:28 mberends a parent friend of mine described himself as a  life support system for his grownup kids - you're not the only one in your situation.
07:28 Jeffzworld umm I need stuff todo
07:28 Jeffzworld i don't even really care if i get paid for it
07:29 Jeffzworld just something to occupy the many hours in the day
07:29 Jeffzworld when im not talking to recruiters
07:29 mberends the main thing is to be seen to be making the right kind of effort to become independent in the long term
07:29 mberends learning to become a better programmer is a very good thing to work on
07:29 Jeffzworld i think im still in the running at this company starting in july
07:29 Jeffzworld i had a second phone interview
07:30 Jeffzworld but i don't have much else going
07:30 Jeffzworld a recruiter responded to my resume email in nevada...
07:31 Jeffzworld how about a facebook puzzel
07:31 Jeffzworld liarliar
07:32 Jeffzworld http://www.facebook.com/careers/puzzles.php#!/careers/puzzles.php?puzzle_id=20
07:33 Jeffzworld i didn't know- i think i use an array but i dono
07:38 dalek nqp/ctmo: 2f75d22 | jonathan++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
07:38 dalek nqp/ctmo: Actually bump the PARROT_REVISION.
07:38 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/2f75d22eda
07:43 Jeffzworld is anyone still here?
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07:44 mberends Jeffzworld: yes, just doing other stuff
07:44 mberends sometimes it goes quiet for a few minutes of even hours, then picks up again
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07:47 mberends we generally don't make unnecessary noise in here, some people read the logs and find irrelevant content a waste of their time.
07:47 mberends except for a bit of joking banter when we're bored, though
07:48 Jeffzworld i got a question
07:48 mberends shoot
07:48 Jeffzworld can u use perl to design a command?
07:48 mberends yes. how? very long story.
07:49 Jeffzworld like if you script that you pass an argument to?
07:49 Jeffzworld for example there's a program called ipcalc
07:49 Jeffzworld which you can run from the command-line
07:49 Jeffzworld and you can type ipcalc [address] all in the same line
07:50 mberends Perl 5 is especially good at that, Perl 6 is getting there too.
07:50 Jeffzworld i wrote a ping script.. but i have to read the address in separate input
07:50 Jeffzworld using read
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07:50 Jeffzworld im actaully using bash... kina beginning at perl
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07:53 mberends Jeffzworld: I realize that. Just tread lightly here then, keep out of the way when heavy Perl 6 things are going on, and you'll be welcome to out friendly company. Some people here don't want the channel to be used for non Perl 6 things at all, so the guideline is not to annoy anyone.
07:53 mberends *our friendly
07:53 Jeffzworld its midnight on saturday
07:54 mberends no, it's 9:54am on Sunday where I am
07:54 Jeffzworld oh
07:54 Jeffzworld hows the future?
07:54 mberends sunny!
07:55 Jeffzworld heh
07:55 Jeffzworld im jeff by the way
07:56 mberends of course. I'm martin, but we usually use nicks online and real names offline
07:56 mberends Jeffzworld: howz ur world 2day?
07:57 diakopter Jeffzworld: closer to 1 a.m., I'd say ;)
08:00 * mberends finally gets out of bed
08:04 Jeffzworld my world?
08:05 Jeffzworld i sit around doing nothing
08:05 Jeffzworld when my mother asks me to empty the dishwaster i am thank ful
08:05 Jeffzworld because for 5 minutes i will be productive
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08:43 mberends Jeffzworld: if you're still awake: it's only a suggestion, but if you concentrate for hundreds of hours on increasing your programming skills, and also work on developing more social skills, you will win at the job interviews that you will get later this year or maybe next year.
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08:59 Tedd1 first thing first; get out of your mothers house ;)
09:00 mberends lol. actually, that's just recursive. to get out, you have to make yourself be able to get out.
09:00 Tedd1 no, I'd prioritize it like that ... get out, get educated, get job
09:01 Tedd1 you get so much more from life by fighting through it... living with parents = fighting the wrong thing
09:02 mberends true, a sink-or-swim initiation. one does grow up faster that way.
09:05 mberends as a teenager, I thought the biggest problem in my life was my parents. how wrong  that was!
09:11 Tedd1 yeah, teenagers are at their most spoiled in life... thinking everything should come for free and that its their right :)
09:11 Tedd1 but then again, when I moved out I already had 10+ years of coding behind me, so there wasn't much chance of sinking :)
09:12 moritz_ good morning
09:13 moritz_ I guess you know that teenager problems are mostly made by culture?
09:13 moritz_ http://drrobertepstein.com/pdf/Epstein-THE_MYTH_OF_THE_TEEN_BRAIN-Scientific_American_Mind-4-07.pdf
09:15 mberends good moritz_ morning, I shall skeptically read that
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09:20 tadzik good morning zebraland
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09:24 masak morning, zebras
09:24 phenny masak: 01:37Z <sorear> tell masak If you want rules to be useful for languages other than Perl 6, redefine token ws to match "ignorable whitespace"
09:24 masak sorear: you're right.
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09:27 mberends hi tadzik, masak
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09:27 masak \o
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10:02 masak Jeffzworld: hi. welcome.
10:06 masak Jeffzworld: I could try and give advice like the rest of the crew has done, but I really want to say this -- I hope you stick around. you seem like #perl6 material, and there's possibility of both you and #perl6 coming out ahead from this. :)
10:10 moritz_ masak++
10:11 masak specifically, I feel it's my exploration of Perl 6 that has put me on solid ground wrt compputer science. sure, I was interested in it before, but now I understand it better.
10:11 masak helping explore and shape a programming language certainly has a part in that.
10:13 masak but it's also the people here. they're great. smart, funny, often with fantastic ideas. I haven't felt bored since 2008. :)
10:14 masak hm, maybe I'm overselling the channel. sometimes it does quiet down. we're working on that.
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10:21 moritz_ (off-topic: can somebody recommend a CSS framework? I tried blueprint, but it assumes a fixed page width, and I don't like that )
10:26 masak not sure I've seen a grid framework that doesn't assume a width.
10:33 moritz_ http://devsnippets.com/article/complete-guide-to-css-frameworks.html also lists frameworks with "fluid" layouts, which is what I was looking for
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10:43 masak right. I've seen them in action sometimes.
10:44 moritz_ I've temporarily decided to go with the "emastic" framework
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10:45 moritz_ it lets you specify some columns in em units, and one fluid column takes up the rest of the space
10:45 masak sounds nice. let me/us know how it goes.
10:45 moritz_ I will.
10:46 * moritz_ hopes to actually deploy at some point :-)
10:46 masak I'm studying Tarjan's algorithm, because it turns out a small hobby application I'm exploring needs to subdivide a directed graph into strongly connected components.
10:47 masak I love how the 'reduction of strongly conntected components into single nodes' can be seen as 'dividing by cycles' and makes the directed graph into a DAG ;)
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13:36 shortcircuit http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Pi
13:37 * shortcircuit things Perl6 should implement that task as a sequence.
13:37 shortcircuit *thinks
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14:48 colomon shortcircuit: http://web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/people/jeremy.gibbons/publications/spigot.pdf
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17:21 dukeleto diakopter: ping
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17:29 dukeleto who can help me with a dalek question?
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17:35 masak dukeleto: my guess would be Infinoid.
17:35 masak dukeleto: but don't ask to ask -- just put your question in the backlog, and someone is bound to come back to it ;)
17:36 dukeleto dalek is announcing spam in #parrot, because our Trac instance is being spammed
17:36 dukeleto I need to tell dalek to not announce Trac tickets until we fix Trac
17:36 dukeleto please someone help me do this. Our current solutions is to kickban dalek, which is suboptimal
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17:37 masak seems to me the appropriate fix should be applied to https://github.com/Infinoid/dalek-plugins/blob/master/modules/local/tracwikilog.pm
17:39 dukeleto masak: thanks for the help
17:40 diakopter well
17:40 diakopter one sec
17:43 diakopter I'll have to wait for sorear to fix; he knows this  system whereas I don't
17:44 moritz_ masak: http://moritzlenz.dyndns.org:3000/details/11 # intermediate redesign result, using the "emastic" css framework
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17:46 dukeleto diakopter: thanks
17:47 dukeleto sorear: your help would be much appreciated
17:47 masak the horizontal/vertical paddings for the 'main content' box appear mismatched.
17:47 masak moritz_: ^
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18:39 donri hm can you gather self.*multi-dispatching?
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18:53 masak donri: the results are returned as a list. other than that, I'm not sure I understand your question.
18:57 mberends yes you can. example:
18:57 mberends rakudo: class a { multi method b($x){take "red $x"};multi method b($x,$y){take "green $x $y";}; method c(){gather for 1..2 -> $c {my @c=1..$c;self.b(|@c)};};};my @a=a.new.c();@a.perl.say
18:57 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«["red 1", "green 1 2"]␤»
18:58 moritz_ masak: yes, I need to fix that
19:07 donri mberends: with self.*b?
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19:09 mberends donri: no, not *b, just b. but the flattening |@c allows it to multi dispatch. I think you may want something else though, not sure what else to suggest.
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19:25 moritz_ masak: alignment fixed... I'm not really happy with the bahviour if the browser window is smaller than the predefined width
19:26 moritz_ but that's a task for another day, I think
19:32 masak :)
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20:00 * masak digs back into Tarjan's algorithm
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20:23 patrickas rakudo: my @a = [1, 2, 3] , [1, 1, 1];say ~@a.map( { 5 ~~ any($_) } );
20:23 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«Bool::True Bool::True␤»
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20:24 patrickas I am sure I am doing something stupid, but I expected False in that !
20:24 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = [1, 2, 3] , [1, 1, 1];say ~@a.map( { 5 ~~ any @($_) } )
20:24 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«Bool::True Bool::True␤»
20:25 moritz_ I'm surprised too
20:25 benabik rakudo: say 5 ~~ any([1,1,1])
20:25 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
20:26 moritz_ ah
20:26 moritz_ ~~ contextualizes $_
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20:26 benabik 5 ~~ any(5)
20:26 moritz_ it's a bit wtf-y
20:26 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = [1, 2, 3] , [1, 1, 1];say ~@a.map( { 5 ~~ .say })
20:26 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«5␤5␤Bool::True Bool::True␤»
20:27 moritz_ you see that $_ is actually 5, not the array
20:27 patrickas ohhhhh
20:27 moritz_ that one has bit me before :/
20:28 patrickas Thansk moritz!
20:28 M_o_C left #perl6
20:29 patrickas I had suspected $_ was not what I am expecting but I tried to put a "say $_.perl" *before* the smartmatch to confirm!
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20:36 masak of course, the solution is not to use a smartmatch when a more exact operator is available. :)
20:36 masak == in this case.
20:36 masak rakudo: my @a = [1, 2, 3] , [1, 1, 1];say ~@a.map( { 5 == any @($_) } )
20:36 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«any(Bool::False) any(Bool::False)␤»
20:36 masak rakudo: my @a = [1, 2, 3] , [1, 1, 1];say ~@a.map( { so 5 == any @($_) } )
20:36 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«Bool::False Bool::False␤»
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20:40 cspencer is the default scope for subroutines "our" or "my" in p6?
20:40 masak 'my'.
20:40 masak (unlike Perl 5)
20:40 masak default for classes and other type-y things is 'our', though.
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20:41 cspencer just reading through S06 and noticed under the "named subroutines" section that it says: sub NAME ( PARAMS ) TRAITS {...}    # same as "our"
20:41 cspencer should the comment be "# same as "my"?
20:41 masak you probably found a fossil, then.
20:41 cspencer or am i missing something
20:41 * masak looks
20:41 cspencer ah ok
20:42 cspencer it was seemingly contradicting the paragraph at the end of the section and i just wanted to clarify
20:42 masak looks like. cspencer++
20:42 * masak fixes
20:44 dalek specs: f7d7198 | masak++ | S06-routines.pod:
20:44 dalek specs: [S06] corrected my/our fossil
20:44 dalek specs:
20:44 dalek specs: Reported in by cspencer++.
20:44 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/f7d7198d89
20:44 masak good thing we didn't freeze the spec yet! *phew*
20:44 patrickas that was a close one!
20:45 * benabik lols.
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20:46 patrickas anyways desaster averted, and I suggest if cspencer is interrested in finding more such stuff in the specs he should be getting commit access.
20:46 masak absolutely.
20:46 cspencer patrickas: i've got commit access from a long time ago, assuming it's still active :)
20:47 patrickas oh ok then ... all things are as they should be ;-)
20:47 masak cspencer: are you the one with Elf?
20:48 cspencer masak: no, i'm not with elf...i did a bunch of commits a couple years back when some of the setting was getting converted from PIR to P6
20:48 mberends masak: that would be Mitchell Spencer afair
20:48 masak ah, ok.
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20:49 masak cspencer: ah; sorry about the mixup. anyway, good to have you back :)
20:49 cspencer masak: thanks!
20:52 tadzik cspencer: you might want to have the commit access renewed though, we
20:52 tadzik ...we're on git now
20:52 cspencer rakudo was on git at the time i'd got access, so i'm probably still current
20:53 masak what's your github username?
20:53 cspencer cspencer
20:53 tadzik specs moved far later
20:53 cspencer ah, ok
20:53 masak ENOHUGBOT
20:53 tadzik like half a year ago or something
20:54 cspencer i've noticed a couple of obvious typos reading through the specs that i don't mind fixing if i had access
20:55 masak cspencer: you have access, it seems.
20:55 masak your old access must've been carried over by someone.
20:55 cspencer masak: that's for the specs as well?
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20:57 masak yes, that's the group called 'perl6', with access to all the central repositories.
20:57 cspencer oh alright.  i'll give it a try then...
20:57 masak we can't be bothered to fiddle with access to the central repos individually, so if you're trusted with one, you're trusted with all of them :)
20:58 benabik laziness++
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21:05 masak huh. the expression C< $a max 0 > reads kinda wrong, doesn't it?
21:06 * masak decides to use prefix [max] instead
21:06 cspencer i seem to have forgotten all my git in the last year.  argh.
21:07 cspencer how do i push a commit to github again?
21:07 masak git push -u origin master
21:07 masak most likely.
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21:15 dalek specs: 47af4ce | cspencer++ | S06-routines.pod:
21:15 dalek specs: Fixed minor typo.
21:15 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/47af4cedaa
21:15 cspencer there we go, that worked.
21:15 cspencer turns out i needed a new version of git.
21:16 masak :)
21:16 masak "Perl 6: turns out you need a new version of git" :P
21:16 masak not my best slogan, to be sure.
21:16 cspencer hah! ;)
21:19 cspencer what's happened to the monthly rakudo star releases lately?
21:19 PerlJam cspencer: they stopped being monthly :)
21:20 cspencer perljam: fair enough :)
21:20 PerlJam Though I think we decided on quarterly releases, no one may have announced that fact via the usual channels.
21:20 PerlJam At least I don't recall such.
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21:21 cspencer i don't recall seeing it either via the usual channels; i just recall not seeing a february release announcement :)
21:25 cspencer rakudo: proto sub foo { say "pre"; { * }; say "post" }; sub foo { say "foo" }; foo()
21:25 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«foo␤»
21:27 masak I'm glad people are reacting when the Rakudo releases are no longer monthly.
21:27 masak I don't object to them no longer being monthly, that's probably the right decision...
21:28 cspencer masak: yes, i can imagine it was a lot of work to bundle and ship on a monthly cycle
21:28 masak ...BUT now, for the first time since Rakudo started, we're releasing nothing, neither Rakudo proper nor Rakudo Star, to the public channels monthly.
21:28 masak cspencer: it isn't, really.
21:28 masak cspencer: it's more that it's stable enough now for monthly releases to be less necessary.
21:28 masak which is a good thing, of course.
21:28 cspencer masak: hey, that's good news
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21:43 * masak sometimes wishes for a uniq that doesn't lean on infix:<eq>
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21:48 masak rakudo: my @a = 1..10; my $g = 3; push (my @b), (my $w = pop @a) until $w == $g; say @b.perl
21:48 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/dN2rUqIQc9␤[10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3]␤»
21:48 masak ah, of course.
21:49 masak rakudo: my @a = 1..10; my $g = 3; repeat until (my $w == $g) { push (my @b), $w = pop @a }; say @b.perl
21:49 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '@b' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/CJ2BGijfsY:22)␤»
21:49 masak rakudo: my @a = 1..10; my $g = 3; my @b; repeat until (my $w == $g) { push @b, $w = pop @a }; say @b.perl
21:49 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«(timeout)initialized value in numeric context  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/Vh5OalqiFo␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric context  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/Vh5OalqiFo␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric context  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/Vh5OalqiFo␤Use of uninitialized
21:49 p6eval ..value in …
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21:50 masak rakudo: my @a = 1..10; my $g = 3; my @b; repeat until (my $w) == $g { push @b, ($w = pop @a) }; say @b.perl
21:50 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«[10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3]␤»
21:50 masak \o/
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21:58 masak for the first time in a long time, I'm being productive with Rakudo. writing new code.
21:59 masak it's not Rakudo's fault that I haven't been it in a while; mostly new $dayjob has sucked up all my focus.
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21:59 masak I just fell victim to RT #85674 -- luckily it's been fixed since I last built Rakudo, on March 9 ;)
21:59 masak moritz_++
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22:13 masak er, waitaminute.
22:13 masak rakudo: say min(3,6)
22:13 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«Unable to handle non-closure Ordering yet␤  in 'Any::min' at line 1563:CORE.setting␤  in 'min' at line 1873:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/g0gzsDKGoB␤»
22:14 masak the bug is not fixed after all.
22:14 benabik Boo
22:14 * masak re-opens RT #85674
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22:17 masak 'night, #perl6.
22:17 benabik 'night
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