Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-04-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:06 sorear good * #perl6
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00:09 tylercurtis sorear: o/
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00:21 sorear o/ tylercurtis
00:21 sorear jnthn: ping
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00:33 sorear hello Moukeddar
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00:34 Moukeddar hi sorear
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01:00 dalek niecza: c1f1c9b | sorear++ | / (6 files):
01:00 dalek niecza: Implement tied scalars (no good API yet)
01:00 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c1f1c9bdec
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02:50 * sorear wants to talk about redesigning the NAM format...any takers?
02:50 gantrixx is there a CPAN6 for Perl6?
02:51 sorear there are several people working on module installers
02:51 sorear there is no central archive yet
02:51 gantrixx you mean, like a package repository?
02:51 gantrixx gems?
02:51 sorear right
02:52 gantrixx is there a place where we can see which packages have been written and read about them?
02:52 sorear last I heard was modules.perl6.org
02:52 sorear there aren't many packages yet
02:54 sorear modules.perl6.org doesn't mention panda.  it might be out of date
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04:40 lue hello world! o/
04:40 phenny lue: 27 Mar 02:49Z <mberends> tell lue I think it may help your understanding of the  to-compile-or-not-to-compile question to research the difference between just-in-time compiling (JIT) and ahead-of-time compiling (AOT). Mono (used is Niecza) uses both options.
04:40 phenny lue: 27 Mar 02:51Z <mberends> tell lue s/is Niecza/in Niecza/
04:41 lue blag toast!  https://rdstar.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/p6-gr​ammars-the-official-archenemy-of-me%E2%84%A2/
04:44 sorear hello lue!
04:46 lue hello sorear! o/
04:47 sorear (if you have any more questions, ask)
04:48 lue about what? The compilation thing, or the thing in my blog post?
04:48 lue [ or just in general? :) ]
04:48 sorear yes!
04:49 sorear on blog post: yes. go ahead, put it on github
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04:51 lue I was leaning towards yes while writing that, but doesn't hurt to ask anyways :) .
04:51 sorear lue: have you played with niecza yet?
04:52 lue No, but I really should. It'll require Mono, correct?
04:52 sorear correct
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05:00 lue Well, I guess I'll upload my Pod parser to github tomorrow, when I have time. good night! o/
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05:06 donri New MoR chapter.
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05:43 moritz \o/
05:50 sorear o/ moritz
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07:03 jnthn morning, #perl6
07:03 Tene morning, jnthn
07:04 tylercurtis Hi, jnthn.
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07:27 tadzik sorear: panda is a subproject of Pies, Pies in on modules.perl6.org
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09:13 bacek aloha, humans
09:13 arnsholt Ciao!
09:14 bacek moritz, sorear, ping. I've got stuuupid question about grammars.
09:14 bacek arnsholt, heya
09:14 moritz bacek: never ask to ask :-)
09:15 bacek moritz, ok-ok :)
09:15 bacek moritz, consider "C". Something like "(foo)bar" is casting "bar" to "foo"
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09:16 * moritz considers it
09:16 bacek otoh, "(foo)" can be just "groupping"
09:17 bacek e.g. "(foo)->bar"
09:17 jnthn .oO( precircumfix )
09:17 moritz jnthn: I thought the same :-)
09:17 moritz bacek: there are basically two solutions
09:17 bacek jnthn, oh.
09:17 jnthn I suspect (foo) may be operator-y.
09:17 jnthn And so you may need to co-opt the OPP somehow.
09:17 * jnthn waits to see what moritz++ suggests :)
09:17 bacek opp?
09:17 bacek aloha, opp?
09:18 jnthn operator precedence parser
09:18 jnthn EXPR
09:18 moritz bacek: the first one is: define a prefix:<(> { '(' ~ ')' <rule_that_just_parses_type_specifications> }
09:18 * jnthn would call it prefix:<cast> :-)
09:18 jnthn But that's the solution I was thinking of.
09:18 bacek moritz, doesn't work :) C is way too weird
09:18 moritz bacek: the second is to parse (type) as a term, and detect it in the OPP
09:19 bacek hmmm
09:19 moritz and allow two terms in a row if the first one turns out to be a cast
09:19 jnthn bacek: What is the case where it doesn't work (or, a case)?
09:19 bacek "(foo)" is parsed as "prefix()".
09:20 bacek And backtracking doesn't work. So "circumfix()" never called.
09:20 bacek moritz, "two terms"? Can you explain little bit.
09:21 moritz "And backtracking doesn't work." -- in general, backtracking works. It might need to get enabled in some places
09:21 bacek moritz, but how?
09:21 moritz where does it fail?
09:21 bacek moritz, nopaste is coming
09:21 moritz consider (int)2.2 -- if you parse (int) as a term, you have to allow a second <term> after it
09:22 bacek moritz, "(int)" is parsed as "prefix()" now.
09:22 moritz bacek: and how is (2+2) parsed?
09:23 bacek moritz, it doesn't. This is my problem :)
09:23 bacek Ah. No. (2+2) is parsed
09:23 bacek as circumfix()
09:23 moritz isn't that exactly what you want?
09:23 bacek just because "2+2" can't be type_declarator
09:23 bacek but "foo" can be type
09:23 bacek or variable
09:24 moritz well
09:24 flussence_ that reminded me: what's the p6 equivalent of p5's "(?<name>regex)"? Been stumped on this one for a while...
09:24 moritz how does a C parser figure it out?
09:24 moritz flussence_: what does it do?
09:24 moritz flussence_: I'm not really familiar with p5 named regexes/captures
09:25 flussence_ named capture group
09:25 bacek moritz, no idea... Let me google it
09:25 flussence_ i.e. it gets put into $+{name}
09:25 moritz $<name> = [ regex ]  iirc
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09:25 moritz but I don't know if that works in rakudo
09:25 moritz $<alias=subrule> works though
09:25 flussence_ oh!
09:26 flussence_ all I needed was that $?
09:26 bacek moritz, cast_expression
09:26 bacek : unary_expression
09:26 bacek | '(' type_name ')' cast_expression
09:26 bacek ;
09:26 moritz sorry, <alias=subrule> in the second example
09:26 bacek moritz, looks like I have to enable backtracking somehow.
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09:26 flussence_ hm, I think I tried that but I'll give it another go...
09:27 moritz bacek: you need to constrain the prefix:<cast> to '(' <type_name> ')'
09:27 moritz rakudo: 'abc' ~~ /$<foo>=(.*)/ && say $<foo>
09:27 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«abc␤»
09:27 moritz rakudo: 'abc' ~~ /$<foo>=[.*]/ && say $<foo>
09:27 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«abc␤»
09:28 moritz looks fine
09:29 bacek moritz, sigh...  type_name can be <indent>. variable can be <indent>. "(<ident>)" can be "prefix()" or "circumfix()".
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09:30 bacek moritz, http://nopaste.snit.ch/39537 very-very long trace.
09:30 moritz bacek: so you need backtracking in whatever calls <prefix> and <circumfix> ... which would be the OPP
09:30 bacek moritz, aha! Getting closer :)
09:31 moritz this is going to be nasty.
09:31 bacek but, afaiu, OOP is for operators only. E.g. infix<>
09:31 tadzik $<name> = [ regex ] works well iirc
09:32 bacek moritz, or I can use it somehow in my situation?
09:32 moritz bacek: OPP calls <prefix>, <term>, <postfix>, <postcircumfix> etc.
09:32 moritz bacek: but I have *no* idea how you would get it to backtrack
09:33 bacek moritz, sigh...
09:33 bacek moritz, thanks for your help anyway :) I'll try to figure out how to do it.
09:34 moritz maybe regex term { <prefix>*<oldterm> } would be a start, but then you have to figure out the relative precedence of the prefix and any other operators on your own
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09:36 bacek moritz, it was even simpler :)
09:36 bacek "prefix() { '(' <ws> <EXPR> ')' <before <EXPR> > }
09:37 bacek I don't know why it works
09:37 moritz I do
09:38 moritz it will only parse (thing) now if it's followed by a term
09:38 bacek but shouldn't default "EXPR" have same semantics?
09:38 moritz it will only parse (thing) *as a prefix* now if it's followed by a term
09:38 moritz bacek: no. Sane languages don't do that :-)
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09:38 bacek ah. That's why
09:39 flussence_ .oO( only `cc` can parse C? )
09:39 moritz bacek: and you'll get better error messages without that hack
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09:40 bacek moritz, yes. But I prefer working solution for now which can be polished later
09:40 moritz bacek: sure, I'm just commenting on the general case
09:40 moritz the more constructs a grammar allow, the worse the error messages get
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09:41 bacek moritz, yes, opsc error messages are awful and terrible. But I don't have time and energy to fix them
09:42 moritz .oO( gsoc project :-) )
09:47 bacek moritz, noooo. It doesn't worth it
09:47 bacek I wanna PBC-emitting-from-POST done :)
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10:57 jnthn bacek: How is PAST in NQP?
11:01 bacek jnthn, not much progress. But there is quite good news - https://gist.github.com/899867 gsoc project for PBC emitting from PCT which includes moving PAST to nqp :)
11:01 bacek Looks like by June, 13 we will have it (hopefully)
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11:18 jnthn bacek: OK, great. :)
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12:09 tadzik was may 2009 still alpha, or alredy ng?
12:10 Moukeddar hi fellows
12:10 moritz tadzik: alpha
12:10 moritz hi Moukeddar
12:10 takadonet morning all
12:11 moritz tadzik: alpha -> ng was in early 2010
12:11 Moukeddar how you doing good sir ?
12:11 moritz seems that Jan 2010 was the last alpha release
12:11 moritz Moukeddar: fine, thanks
12:11 Moukeddar good to hear
12:12 Moukeddar insanity still intact ?
12:12 moritz same procedure as last year
12:12 moritz tadzik: rafl just commented on your gsoc proposal
12:15 tadzik moritz: yeah, I'm just collecting arguments, hence my question
12:15 moritz there are two good answers
12:15 moritz 1) rakudo needs $=FOO variables and .WHY, so it needs to be integrated
12:16 moritz 2) there's no POD parser for the current spec, only for old specs
12:16 moritz where 1) is more to the point of rafl++'s question
12:16 moritz oh, and 3) p6 pod is tightly integrated into Perl 6, and requires parsed Perl6 for some advanced features (like references to method signatures)
12:17 moritz we've had that all back and forth in the discussion with mberends++
12:18 tadzik my thought: it's incomplete, not working, and it's not written having Rakudo's needs in mind, so it's quite useless to bring it back to life just to redesign it completely anyway
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12:19 moritz you just have to explain why it's important for the parser to be designed for rakudo's needs
12:19 moritz a p5 person wouldn't know, because in p5 the language and the doc format are much less coupled
12:26 mberends moritz, tadzik: I think it is feasible to divide S26 into two levels, like W3 did with SVG::Tiny and the full SVG.  Pod6::Simple could be the subset of markup which any tools can handle, and full Pod6 would expect to be integrated into Rakudo or any other implementation. That way Alias and I can play with simple Pod6 using other languages and tadzik can work in Rakudo. What do you think?
12:28 moritz mberends: sure, sounds sane
12:28 tadzik mberends: my work consists of creating a separate parser, being slowly and manually merged into Rakudo's parser, so I think lots of work can be reused here
12:29 mberends nice, we can share lots of ideas :-)
12:30 moritz tadzik: I still kinda hope that you find a way to do the merging with a text munging script
12:30 moritz tadzik: when it's automatic, it's so much easier to to actually do it often, and thus spot divergence
12:31 moritz maybe some #START_MERGE and #END_MERGE comments + text extraction and an insertion marker in Grammar.pm or so
12:31 tadzik moritz: I probably will
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14:30 sorear good * #perl6
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14:32 takadonet sorear: yo
14:32 tadzik sorear: o/
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14:39 sorear jnthn: ping
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14:55 pmurias sorear: hi
14:55 pmurias sorear: you want to redesign nam, in what way?
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14:58 tylercurtis bacek: I believe C compilers differentiate type names and identifiers.
15:05 sorear bacek: this is a well known ambiguity, and it's worse than you realize
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15:05 sorear (identifier)+1 /* how should this parse? */
15:07 sorear if the first token after ( is int, long, short, float, double, struct, enum, union, char, signed, unsigned, volatile, const, _Bool, or a typedef, then it's clearly a cast
15:08 sorear pmurias: the file format and the construction API
15:08 * tylercurtis hopes no one used #define instead of typedef...
15:09 sorear tylercurtis: #defines are already removed by the time the parser is reached
15:09 sorear pmurias: the current system is not helping anyone
15:09 tylercurtis sorear: in C compilers, yes. Does opsc do that, however?
15:10 sorear tylercurtis: bacek is (re)writing opsc now - what opsc (will) do is not decided yet
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15:19 sorear Why are there so many gratuitous 'multi's in Rakudo's setting?  e.g. on &prompt
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15:20 flussence_ leftovers from a time when prompt() took more than 1 param, maybe?
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15:27 pmurias sorear: what do you want to replace the file format with?
15:27 sorear pmurias: If I knew I wouldn't be seeking input
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15:31 TimToady sorear: unwillingness to depend solely on lexical scope for user overrides?  defaulting to multi for (possibly extensible) built-ins seems fairly sane to me
15:32 TimToady flussence_: jus because one definition has 1 arg doesn't mean another multi might not have 2 or more
15:32 TimToady or 1 arg of a different type
15:34 PerlJam TimToady: Does defaulting to multi seem sane enough to huffmanly omit the keyword?  :)
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15:49 sorear o/ colomon
15:49 colomon \o
15:49 jnthn sorear: pong
15:50 jnthn My understanding was that most things are multi so they can be overridden.
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15:54 sorear jnthn: how can 6model cope with object systems that don't use any kind of 'undefined type objects'?
15:54 sorear jnthn: I'm trying to figure out how best to expose native CLR objects in a 6model-like framework
15:56 TimToady can't they just have their own repr?
15:56 jnthn You need to install something in some namespace somewhere. 6model doesn't care whether you stash the type object away inside a class object, or metaclass, or whatever and install something completely different in a namespace.
15:57 jnthn The type object in that sense is only really a "handle" for an s-table.
15:57 jnthn I think the hardest question for exposing CLR objects is "how do you get an instance of one"?
15:58 jnthn TimToady: Yes, I think there'd be a repr that just wraps the CLR object.
15:58 sorear you always start with either a static method or a constructor
15:58 sorear which means haivng a CLR type
15:58 sorear what's a CLR type?
15:58 jnthn There's more than one kind of type really.
15:58 moritz is that a philosophy question? :-)
15:59 jnthn classes, interfaces, structs, enums
15:59 sorear how are CLR types related to wrapped [mscorlib]System.Type objects?
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15:59 jnthn What are you using "CLR types" to mean here?
16:00 jnthn My expectation for 6model/CLR integration was that I'd write meta-objects to represent each of them various kinds of CLR type
16:00 jnthn And that they'd in part delegate to, or cache things from, a System.Type instance.
16:01 jnthn I hadn't really figured out how a constructor call would look, or precisely what to install in the namespace.
16:01 jnthn The thing is that Perl 6 doesn't really have a constructor calling syntax.
16:02 jnthn You could perhaps install a fake .new method.
16:02 sorear I'm pretty sure that constructors will be exposed as a fake .new static method
16:02 jnthn That'd work out OK, I expect.
16:02 sorear however this leaves questions like "what is the nature of System::Threading::Thread?"
16:03 TimToady nature?
16:03 jnthn I don't see why it can't be a "type object"
16:03 sorear it's obviously a RakudoObject that responds to "new" and the other static methods
16:03 jnthn Perhaps method dispatch uses "is this a type object" to decide whether or not to call a static method or an instance one.
16:03 sorear is it a wrapped Type?
16:03 jnthn But maybe that's not optimizable enough.
16:04 jnthn The type object? No.
16:04 jnthn The meta-object is what wraps System.Type.
16:04 sorear or do "type objects" exist separately of Type?
16:04 sorear ok.
16:04 jnthn Or at least, that's my expectation.
16:04 * jnthn wonders if he shoudl try implementing some of this to check that he's not talking too much bull... :)
16:05 TimToady perhaps type objects have a variant repr that dwyms
16:05 sorear TimToady: we're trying to decide wym at this point
16:05 pmurias sorear: what aspects of the current system do you want to improve upon?
16:05 TimToady +
16:05 TimToady 1, even
16:05 colomon implementations++
16:06 TimToady .oO(working consensus and rough code...)
16:06 jnthn TimToady: Apart from what you really care about dwimming is probably in the meta-object and not the repr here.
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16:06 TimToady nodnod
16:06 jnthn I'm just about certain that it's the meta-object that needs to be the holder of System.Type though.
16:07 TimToady when I'm just stirring the pot you should probably discount my vague speculations...  :)
16:07 sorear so the Niecza.CLRDelegateREPR will *almost* map to the same domain as 'object', except that it will have typed nulls
16:08 sorear and the coercion to 'object' will fold all typed nulls to the CLR untyped null
16:08 sorear if a CLR function returns untyped null, what should be the type object Perl 6 sees?
16:09 TimToady Nil?
16:09 jnthn CLR functions always have a return type specified, iirc?
16:09 TimToady maybe Mu makes more sense
16:09 sorear jnthn: they have a return type constraint, but they can return more specific types
16:09 jnthn Oh, but of course a CLR null doesn't carry around any type information...
16:09 jnthn sorear: True
16:10 jnthn sorear: We could return the "type object" for that type constraint. But maybe that's too magical and trying to make CLR objects too Perl 6-y...
16:10 sorear I lean to return null typed with the type of the constraint, which feels only slightly wrong
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16:10 TimToady rakudo: say 42 ~~ none()
16:10 benabik Something like Mu or Nil makes sense to me...
16:10 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
16:10 sorear also I feel all CLR objects should be ~~ Any
16:11 jnthn sorear: (Any) yes, agree. The CLR meta-objects will probably want to lie there. :)
16:11 * colomon really wishes his customers would stop using VC++ 6.  :\
16:11 jnthn colomon: That's...not so new!
16:11 jnthn There's only been 4 VC++ releases since that one... :)
16:12 colomon and two major revisions of the C++ standard.
16:12 jnthn Oh, ouch.
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16:12 * TimToady wonders if none() is about as close as we get to a bottom type
16:13 sorear TimToady: none() and True have the same .ACCEPTS behavior, no?
16:13 TimToady none(), I mean, True.  :)
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16:14 flussence_ colomon: at least *your* customers aren't using IE6 :(
16:14 sorear jnthn: how does the user get at a CLR type object?  simply allowing them to drop System::Console in code is a bit magical, and I'm not sure how other dlls could be handled
16:15 colomon flussence_: for all I know, they are using IE6, but at least that's not my problem.
16:15 TimToady sorry, was thinking about bottom types backward, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
16:15 sorear pmurias: I need a new system which requires less memory to generate and less boilerplate code to parse
16:15 TimToady too many natural endorphins from my wrist, no doubt
16:16 jnthn sorear: I was expecting you'd explicitly import them.
16:16 jnthn use System::Console:from<clr>;
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16:17 jnthn It'd almost certainly be wrong for them to just magically be there. Especially as implementations not running on teh CLR have no real way to support them, and you want to call out CLR usage.
16:17 jnthn NQP and Rakudo are going to be getting a bunch more honest about such things too.
16:18 sorear "honest"?
16:18 jnthn No Q:PIR and pir::foo without an appropriate use statement somewhere.
16:18 sorear What if I want to use 200 classes from some namespace somewhere?
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16:19 jnthn Good question. Maybe use System:from<clr> actually means "all the classes in System"
16:19 jnthn And use System::Console:from<clr>; # just that class
16:19 jnthn Dunno if that's too magical...
16:19 * jnthn looks at TimToady :)
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16:20 benabik use System::* :from<clr> ?
16:20 TimToady it's only too magical if it turns into memory bloat
16:21 sorear After that, suppose I have 'my System::Exception $foo'.  Should that work?
16:21 TimToady or renders the semantics indeterminate
16:21 jnthn Probably.
16:21 jnthn I don't see why it wouldn't.
16:21 jnthn Presumably you'd even be able to use them in multi-dispatch too.
16:22 TimToady could be restricted to specific version to be safe from new-version-itis of the namespace
16:25 sorear What kind of syntax are you thinking of for use of a non-corlib library?
16:26 jnthn Maybe an extra adverb to specify the assmebly
16:26 jnthn :ass<SomeThing> # loads Something.dll and looks there
16:26 jnthn er, let's not abbreciate it...
16:26 jnthn :assembly<Something> # :)
16:26 jnthn Though :ver and :auth are :)
16:27 jnthn Troubhle is that there's no rule meaning a .Net namespace and an assembly name have to match...
16:27 TimToady we can certainly fiddle with S11:527 as necessary
16:28 TimToady but loading a thing to look in seems more like a path traversal to me, so maybe just part of the name
16:28 sorear jnthn: how does the wrapping REPR interact with value types?
16:29 benabik Perhaps just "use SomeThing" if class SomeThing is in assembly "Something.dll" and "use Something :assembly<FromHere>" if not?
16:29 TimToady do you mean boxed or unboxed?
16:29 TimToady or both?
16:30 jnthn sorear: Maybe the REPR should be (at the CLR level) type parametric.
16:30 TimToady assembly just seems like extra noise to me, if the name is unambiguously a "directory" of some sort
16:30 pmurias sorear: BSON would we an easy switch
16:30 pmurias s/an/be an/
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16:32 pmurias sorear: you are an coauthor of derive?
16:33 sorear pmurias: BSON wouldn't help with the memory issue
16:33 * flussence_ notices a similarity between this "use ...;" stuff and web framework URL routing
16:34 jnthn TimToady: Any namespace can live in any assembly, or even be spread over multiple assemblies.
16:35 pmurias sorear: protocol buffers look promising
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16:35 pmurias sorear: but i'm not sure if using them would eliminate much boilerplate
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16:38 sorear pmurias: you're looking at only superficial aspects; I think there is a deeper problem
16:38 sorear related in some way to the tree structure
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16:41 pmurias sorear: the opcodes being a tree rather than a list of opcodes seems a bit unusual
16:42 pmurias it seems a natural choice for a functional style language but goto kind of seems out of place in nam
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17:05 sorear o/ mberends
17:08 mberends \o sorear
17:08 jnthn o/ mberends :)
17:09 tadzik o/
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17:21 masak hola, zebras.
17:21 jnthn lolitsmasak!
17:21 sorear masak!!
17:21 masak \o/
17:23 colomon \o
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17:26 tadzik of for fuck's sake. My exam session is til the end of June, not til the end of May. One month of GSoC is happening during my semester
17:26 _ilbot joined #perl6
17:26 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
17:27 masak ick.
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17:32 tadzik gosh, everything collapses
17:32 am0c left #perl6
17:32 sorear ?
17:34 tadzik my whole plan is going crazy, I wonder where I'll stick 25 hours per week in the last month of the semester
17:35 tadzik I guess I'll move some of the stuff in the schedule to after-june
17:36 Moukeddar joined #perl6
17:36 masak Moukeddar! \o/
17:37 wallberg left #perl6
17:37 Moukeddar hello there
17:37 masak welcome back! :)
17:37 Moukeddar \m/
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17:39 sorear in other news, I've been studying the implementation of Jython
17:40 sorear it's vaguely sickening how they work around the lack of lightweight function pointerse
17:40 pyrimidine tadzik: there is a topic just posted to the GSoC mentor's list regarding this problem (student unavailability during coding)
17:41 tadzik pyrimidine: got a link?
17:41 icwiener joined #perl6
17:41 pyrimidine tadzik: I think the list is private, will check
17:42 Moukeddar jython ?
17:42 pyrimidine tadzik: no, it's public: http://groups.google.com/group/goog​le-summer-of-code-mentors-list/brow​se_thread/thread/1160c35816869e85#
17:43 tadzik You must be signed in and a member of this group to view its content
17:43 tadzik I'll try
17:43 pyrimidine ah
17:43 benabik joined #perl6
17:43 pyrimidine (forgot I was signed in)
17:43 tadzik or not, that's mentors-only I guess
17:43 tadzik got any conclusions to share maybe?
17:43 pyrimidine tadzik: just to summarize, the general consensus is that it's up to the org
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17:44 pyrimidine basically, time isn't the only factor, and there is some flexibility re: time with the community binding period, etc.
17:45 tadzik pyrimidine: sorry for the question spree, but what was the problem initially: suprise lack of time, known-to-happen lack of time, modifying the schedule in runtime?
17:45 mtk left #perl6
17:45 pyrimidine depending on the proposal, any of the above
17:46 sorear Am I the only one who is vaguely disturbed by the magical behavior of sort @list when @list[0] ~~ Callable?
17:46 masak I'm vaguely disturbed by many similar behaviors.
17:46 pyrimidine one student had military training, another had semester exams, etc
17:47 masak they made a lot more sense in Perl 5 when arguments were flattened.
17:47 tadzik so I guess I'll just have a hard time in the first 5 weeks, then schedule a 2-week break... crap
17:48 mtk joined #perl6
17:48 tadzik moritz, you around?
17:48 pyrimidine tadzik: so, the end answer on whether to accept students with a time conflict was 'it depends'
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17:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: 3befd15 | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (7 files):
17:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: Update bootstrap with latest changes.
17:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3befd1502f
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17:53 sorear wait, Perl 6 had a "project manager" in 2008?
17:55 masak sorear: pmichaud?
17:55 sorear masak: obra.
17:56 jnthn Jesse used to be Perl 6 project manager.
17:56 jnthn Yes, obra
17:57 tadzik well, I have a thinktime to Friday 21:00
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18:05 pyrimidine tadzik: if it's any consolation, almost every response re: that post indicates that it's the quality of the student and the feasibility of the proposal that matters; if the project can be completed in that time period, then it's up to the organization.
18:06 pyrimidine and, from the feedback I've seen here, seems like they like it :)
18:06 tadzik oh, I'd be suprised if anything would be not up to the organization
18:06 Moukeddar left #perl6
18:07 tadzik oh, they didn't know what is the situation, hell, even I didn't know. Good that I realised today, not in may
18:08 pyrimidine yes, it's good to acknowledge the time issues in your proposal, so when you disappear for that time there is at least a reason why :)
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18:14 colomon sorear: I'm with you wrt magical behavior of sort.
18:18 masak I think Tene mentioned something like that at some point or another, too.
18:19 dalek niecza: 67836c1 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
18:19 dalek niecza: Add a few IO functions, speccy &first
18:19 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/67836c1f56
18:19 masak 'speccy' :)
18:20 tadzik heh :)
18:25 sorear niecza had a &first before, but it meant something different
18:25 sjn masak: any news on NPW? :)
18:25 sorear that has now been renamed to &head
18:26 * sjn and krunen wants at least to know the dates :)
18:26 sjn we're dscussing a boat trip to Malmö :D
18:26 jnthn sjn: Yes, the dates are set.
18:27 sjn gimmeh!
18:27 jnthn The ones in the original proposal.
18:27 masak right.
18:27 jnthn Now I'm back from Taiwan, the site is coming soon :)
18:27 masak we totally could have announced the dates on the npw list. sorry 'bout that.
18:28 jnthn Yes, that woulda been good...d'oh.
18:28 masak but happy to hear you're as excited about it as we are :)
18:28 sjn what dates was that
18:28 sjn ?
18:31 masak 2011-06-18 and 2011-06-19
18:33 sjn thanks
18:42 Tene sorear: I really don't like the proliferation of sub and method forms for the same task, which iirc includes sort.  I also recall at various times seeing some kind of list-y method on both arrays and subs, with reversed sense of arguments, but I don't recall if that was sort, and I don't know if that's still the case.  I think it was map or grep, but those don't look to currently be specced on code.
18:42 Tene sorear: I don't remember anything about @list[0] ~~ Callable with sort, but if that's the case, I rather dislike that.
18:43 Tene sorear: how does jython work around the lack of lightweight function pointers?
18:43 colomon Tene: the idea is to allow you to say sort &comparison-function, @list
18:44 colomon Tene: but as it is, p6 can't tell the difference between that and sort @list where @list[0] ~~ Callable
18:45 colomon personally, I don't mind the proliferation of sub and method forms for the same task, but really dislike having additional magic on top of that.
18:45 Tene It... can't?  Huh.  That doesn't sound right.
18:46 Tene Look at the signature specified in S32/Containers.pod
18:46 Tene our List multi sort( Ordering @by,  *@values )
18:46 Tene our List multi sort( Ordering $by, *@values )
18:46 colomon oh, interesting.
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18:46 colomon is there no our List multi sort(*@values)?
18:46 Tene although, that's a *slurpy* parameter, which I hadn't noticed before.
18:47 colomon yeah, it's the slurpiness which causes the trouble in Rakudo's implementation
18:47 Tene but, I remember that (@a,@b) should work fine as a signature.
18:48 Tene Slurpy there looks wrong to me, but I also note that my expectations and intuitions disagree with Perl 6's on several points.
18:49 colomon if you take away the slurpy, then making it smart is trivial.
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18:52 Tene I generally feel that my intuitions about the general area involving single items acting as lists and lists of single items acting as just that item don't match Perl 6's view.  I find I don't really mind it in Perl 5, where there isn't really an array type in most meaningful senses (just array ref), but since Perl 6 does have it, I find myself confused by the utility of, say...
18:52 Tene rakudo: say 1.map( * + 2 )
18:52 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«3␤»
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18:55 Tene It's also notable that with the sub form, there's no multi specced without the Ordering parameter.
18:55 Tene so, you can't sort(@foo)
18:56 Tene ( but you can @foo.sort() )
18:56 Tene Hmm... I don't recall what a slurpy on an & parameter means either:
18:56 Tene our Array multi method sort( @values: *&by )
18:57 Tene "It's also possible to declare a slurpy block: *&block. It slurps up any nameless block, specified by {...}, at either the current positional location or the end of the syntactic list."
18:57 colomon hmm, didn't know that.
18:58 Tene Bleh.  Eww.  That seems rather distasteful to me at a first pass, but I'm not sure why.  Maybe it reminds me a bit too much of ruby's mess around there.
18:58 colomon If you really cannot do sort(@foo), then the magic issue just goes away.
18:58 Tene (there are several issues involved in trying to pass an anonymous code block to a function)
18:59 PerlJam colomon: you can do sort(@foo), but the results will surprise you
18:59 PerlJam (as I read the spec)
18:59 Tene PerlJam: you mean, failure to bind due to type mismatch?
18:59 PerlJam Tene: no @foo binds to @by and @values is empty
19:00 Tene PerlJam: look at the type signature on the multi; Ordering @by
19:00 colomon that only works if @foo can be an Ordering
19:00 colomon (as Tene++ was pointing out)
19:00 Tene subset Ordering where Signature | KeyExtractor | Comparator | OrderingPair | Whatever;
19:01 Tene http://perlcabal.org/syn/S​29.html#Type_Declarations
19:01 * colomon is wondering if there is any good reason not to add Ordering to Rakudo at this point.
19:01 Tene colomon: does rakudo support junction subsets like that?
19:01 Tene rakudo: subset Foo where Int | Str;
19:01 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
19:02 Tene rakudo: subset Foo where Int | Str; my Foo $x = 5;
19:02 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
19:02 Tene Apparently.
19:02 colomon rakudo: subset Foo where Int | Str; my Foo $x = 5; say :$x.perl
19:02 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«"x" => 5␤»
19:02 colomon rakudo: subset Foo where Int | Str; my Foo $x = "5"; say :$x.perl
19:02 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«"x" => "5"␤»
19:02 colomon rakudo: subset Foo where Int | Str; my Foo $x = 5.5; say :$x.perl
19:02 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Type check failed for assignment␤    Container type: Any␤               Got: Rat␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/fKma6ZKMB7␤»
19:02 colomon yup
19:02 Tene colomon: I see no reason to not add Ordering.
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19:03 Tene colomon: I see several reasons to adjust the sort() spec, but I'm uncomfortable making changes in areas that I feel I poorly understand the motivations of.
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19:04 Tene Also, if I'm going to spend time on spec work, I've got pending edits to the macros sections of the spec to write first. :)
19:07 colomon I see S32-list/sort.t has tests like   my @s = sort(@a);
19:07 colomon S32-hash/keys_values.t has is(~sort(values(%hash))
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19:14 colomon rakudo: subset KeyExtractor of Code where { .signature === :(Any --> Any) };
19:14 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
19:15 colomon rakudo: subset KeyExtractor of Code where { .signature === :(Any --> Any) }; my KeyExtractor $a = -> $a { $a.key }; say "got here"
19:15 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Type check failed for assignment␤    Container type: Code␤               Got: Block␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/Evruawwtqe␤»
19:15 masak rakudo: say Block ~~ Code
19:15 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
19:16 colomon rakudo: subset KeyExtractor of Block where { .signature === :(Any --> Any) }; my KeyExtractor $a = -> $a { $a.key }; say "got here"
19:16 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Type check failed for assignment␤    Container type: Block␤               Got: Block␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/eM0jTFSzpf␤»
19:16 colomon beauty, eh?
19:17 colomon rakudo: subset KeyExtractor of Block where { .signature === :(Any --> Any) }; my KeyExtractor $a = -> $b { $b.key }; say "got here"
19:17 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Type check failed for assignment␤    Container type: Block␤               Got: Block␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/FpwFdqn_fA␤»
19:17 colomon std: subset KeyExtractor of Block where { .signature === :(Any --> Any) }; my KeyExtractor $a = -> $b { $b.key }; say "got here"
19:17 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 125m␤»
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19:39 Tene colomon: I don't think that signature equality like that is implemented.
19:40 Tene rakudo: my $a = -> $x { "foo" }; say $a.signature.perl
19:40 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«:(Mu $x)␤»
19:40 Tene rakudo: my $a = -> $x { "foo" }; say $a.signature === :(Any --> Any)
19:40 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
19:40 Tene see?
19:41 Tene Well... that might not be equality check; that might be incorrect signature generated for the sub.
19:41 moritz tadzik: pong
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19:57 masak could signature equality with === really work in the general case?
19:58 masak given that 'when' clauses contain blocks with their own identity, I mean.
19:58 masak er, 'where' blocks.
19:59 masak if I have '$x where { $_ %% 18 }' in two different, otherwise identical signatures, how would the unification between the two (distinct) '{ $_ %% 18 }' blocks be made?
19:59 moritz not at all
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20:00 moritz or amybe at the AST level
20:00 masak I have trouble seeing even that.
20:00 * jnthn firmly nails the can of worms shut
20:00 moritz though then it would identify { $x %% 18 } and { $_ %% 18 } as different blocks
20:00 masak aye.
20:00 masak not to mention other variables bound elsewhere. argh.
20:02 jnthn A more interesting question is what :(Int $x where * < 42) ~~ :(Int $x) says
20:02 jnthn And :(Int $x where * < 42) ~~ :(Int $x where * >= 42)
20:02 * jnthn guesses True and False.
20:03 masak that's also code introspection.
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20:03 jnthn Well, not so much
20:03 jnthn The first case is just "have a constraint" vs "have no constraint"
20:03 masak what does :(Int $x where { say "OH HAI"; $_ < 42 }) ~~ :(Int $x where { $_ < 42 }) say?
20:04 jnthn It'd be fitting with MMDs view of the world.
20:04 jnthn I guess False
20:04 jnthn Because constraints like that are impossible to compare
20:04 jnthn (In general.)
20:05 moritz then it should fail()
20:05 masak oh, so even :(Int $x where { $_ < 42 }) ~~ :(Int $x where { $_ < 42 }) gives False?
20:05 jnthn If we just give up right off the bat, I guess so
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20:06 jnthn We could talk about the "same block" but then you're at high risk of optimizer-specific results (e.g. if it spots the two are the same and only generates the code once)
20:06 masak nod
20:06 masak and what looks like the same block to the user might not to the optimizer.
20:07 masak due to things like surrounding context.
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20:27 tadzik moritz: can you backlog to the one-month-ouch discussion? 17:26 UTC I think
20:32 moritz tadzik: not much of a discussion...
20:33 moritz tadzik: you know best if you'll squeeze in 25h per week, and if less, if you'll be able to catch up later on
20:33 moritz (you can also do pre-work, if you prefer)
20:34 tadzik I'll tune the assignemnt, probably on friday
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20:35 PerlJam tadzik: you can get 25h in each weekend!  ;)
20:35 tadzik PerlJam: with enough motivation, yes :)
20:36 tadzik unless I'll need the weekend time for @studies
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20:39 PerlJam tadzik: that's easy too!  Just sleep less each day  :)
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20:40 tadzik this is getting worse and worse :)
20:41 tadzik no, I'll handle this for sure, I just need to convince TPF that I will. And there will be slips :|
20:43 PerlJam tadzik: adjust your schedule to take advantage of when you have free time and give yourself a break when you don't.
20:44 tadzik PerlJam: the problem is that having time is not as predictable as I'd like it to be. Of course I'll do what I can, but it can't possibly be perfect
20:44 masak tadzik: in my understanding, it's OK to be unavailable during parts of the GSoC period. just make sure to plan it in.
20:45 PerlJam tadzik: what masak said  (and mention how to intend to "make up" for the time)
20:45 tadzik yeah. I'll maybe put something off my shoulders to, I can always do it if I'll have more time than I suspected, or just after GSoC
20:46 tadzik e.g, it's not _so_ critical to have all of C<>, Z<>, B<> blocks and so on
20:46 Mowah joined #perl6
20:46 tadzik or all the specific type of blocks
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20:47 tadzik (I'll probably do them anyway)
20:47 tadzik but it's the matter of what I promise to do
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20:55 masak 'night, #perl6
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20:56 pmurias sorear: what do you think is the deeper problem?
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21:25 thundergnat What is the proper syntax to use an adverb with an infix operator? And for that matter, what should the sub signature be?
21:25 thundergnat I've implemented the logic for bit shift with rotate but can't figure out how to use the :rotate adverb.
21:26 thundergnat $a +> :rotate $b   #???
21:26 moritz std: 1 +> 2 :rotate
21:26 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
21:26 moritz std: 1 +> :rotate 2
21:26 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/v8hCZE5LQg line 1:␤------> [32m1 +> :rotate [33m⏏[31m2[0m␤    expecting any of:␤      bracketed infix␤        infix or meta-infix␤    statement modifier loop␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
21:27 moritz thundergnat: but it's not yet parsed in rakudo
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21:27 moritz you can only call it as  infix:«+>»($a, $b, :rotate) for now
21:27 thundergnat Ah. Bummer
21:27 * moritz -> sleep
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22:20 sorear good * #perl6
22:23 sorear Tene: *&foo is unimplementable (it requires modification of parsing), and so you can ignore it
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22:25 sorear niecza: sub infix:« +> »($a, $b, :$rotate) { say :$rotate.perl }; 1 +> 2 :rotate; 1 +> 2;
22:25 p6eval niecza v4-22-g67836c1: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  $b is declared but not used at /tmp/fBrTGeHc0S line 1:␤------> [32msub infix:« +> »($a, [33m⏏[31m$b, :$rotate) { say :$rotate.perl }; 1 +[0m␤  $a is declared but not used at /tmp/fBrTGeHc0S line 1:␤------> [32msub infix:« +>
22:25 p6eval ..»([33m⏏[31m$a, $b, :$rot…
22:26 sorear niecza: sub infix:« +> »($a, $b, :$rotate) { say :$rotate.perl }; 1 +> 2 :rotate; 1 +> 2; #OK
22:26 p6eval niecza v4-22-g67836c1: OUTPUT«"rotate" => Bool::True␤"rotate" => Any␤»
22:26 * sorear pokes thundergnat
22:26 thundergnat Eh??
22:26 thundergnat Whats up?
22:27 thundergnat Ah!
22:29 thundergnat Is there any way to tell what the native Int size is under rakudo? Preferably without having to stuff a large value into an Int and checking if it overflowed?
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22:46 Tene sorear: that's even more reason to have issues with the spec for sort
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23:07 sorear thundergnat: Int is supposed to be a bignum; Rakudo's sizing of it is rather a bug
23:08 sorear TimToady: Are sized numbers classes or subtypes?  Is 1 from 'my Int64 $x' a different object than 1 from 'my Int $x'?
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