Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-04-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:08 takadonet1 TimToady: how are you sir?
00:11 TimToady my wrist has improved to the point it doesn't feel like my hand is gonna fall off just yet
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00:12 takadonet1 TimToady: Good to hear.
00:13 TimToady that too
00:13 TimToady I've been wearing earplugs to keep it that way :)
00:13 * TimToady has been tearing siding off his house, hence the connection...
00:13 takadonet1 hehe
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00:18 sjohnson wrists hurt from all that perl hacking
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00:21 sorear good * #perl6
00:22 takadonet1 sorear: yo yo !
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01:13 uvtc TimToady and sjohnson: just to chime in about the wrist pain -- if it's related to possible RSI, what's helped me greatly is one of these http://kinesis-ergo.com/contoured.htm
01:13 uvtc along with a trackpad mounted in the middle.
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01:14 uvtc I think I actually emailed TimToady a long time ago about it actually. (I've got no connection with the company other than buying a couple of them.)
01:16 uvtc Most important was to have it low enough (ex. on your lap) so your wrists can hangdown just a bit. Anyway, hth.
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01:47 benabik I used a Kinesis for a long time, they're very nice.
01:47 Tene uvtc: I've been curious about trying one of those.
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01:57 uvtc Tene: they're pretty amazingly comfortable. One possible drawback is that they have only a tiny rubber chicklet Esc key (along with the F-keys).
01:57 uvtc When using vim, I used ^[ in place of Esc though, and it was fine.
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02:00 uvtc The keys though to avoiding hand pain is to have it low (as I mentioned), and also the use of a trackpad so you can avoid touching a mouse.
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02:04 benabik I used a Kinesis and a trackball.  Worked lovely.  then I stopped using a desktop.
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02:08 TimToady my problem is not with keyboards--it's with crowbars
02:08 uvtc benabik: I'm on a laptop. Using the Contoured/Advantage kybd externally (via USB). Hardly ever touch the built-in keyboard. Trouble is, I'm pretty stranded if I need to work somewhere and haven't brought the keyboard with me.
02:08 benabik TimToady: Don't hit your wrist with a crowbar.  That's bad.
02:09 benabik uvtc: Since I don't have a desk dedicated to my computer, I don't have a good place to use the keyboard.
02:11 uvtc benabik: Ah. Mine generally either stays on my lap, or on top of the laptop when it's folded closed. If I had no room, I'd probably try to figure a way of hanging it on a wall somewhere. :)
02:11 benabik uvtc: Mine also has a... problem.  I bought it back when they had lifetime support, but proving that is always an issue, since I can no longer read the serial number.
02:11 uvtc TimToady: I'd suggest that typing with a crowbar is probably suboptimal.
02:11 Tene I spend most of my time with my feet up on my desk, leaning back in my chair, with the keyboard in my lap.
02:12 uvtc TimToady: ;)
02:12 Tene It's not great, but it's the most comfortable I've been able to manage.
02:12 benabik Mine is also PS2 interface, which sucks.
02:12 Tene Sitting like my co-workers do, straight up in my chair with keyboard on the desk and my legs hanging down on the floor gets very uncomfortable for me pretty quickly.
02:13 uvtc benabik: Ah, yeah, the newer ones are USB. I've got an older PS2 model as well as a USB.
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02:13 Tene The best I can do similar to that is with my legs folded under me, up on the chair, but then I lose circulation, so when I have to sit like that, I alternate legs back and forth between up and down, which gets pretty annoying to need to do.
02:14 uvtc Tene: I've used a footstool in the past to help level things out. Putting the feet up once in a while sounds good for circulation.
02:15 flussence_ I got a new mouse today... and it ended up having terrible surface detection and sufficiently high friction on the loose slide-out keyboard thing on my desk as to be completely useless.
02:15 flussence_ (guess I need a better desk)
02:16 uvtc flussence_: the trackpad is less accurate and slower than the mouse, but it's saved my mouse-button finger/hand.
02:17 Tene at home I've got this couch, and I sit on the extended section with my legs up.  http://www.ikea.com/us/en/images/products/kivik-so​fa-and-chaise-lounge-red__0112935_PE264824_S4.JPG
02:18 Tene ... I should probably ask a doctor to look into circulation problems or something someday.  If I could be comfortable with my legs hanging down, that would be very convenient.
02:19 benabik I had a pretty high accuracy trackball.  Had a cutout on the side that let me hold it with finger and thumb.
02:19 uvtc Tene: you might try the footstool idea (along with a regular chair) to see if it works for you.
02:19 Tene uvtc: ah, you mean a small stool underneath my desk?  I hadn't considered that...
02:20 Tene that might work. :)
02:20 Tene I also should try a standing desk someday; I expect to hate it, but it's worth trying.
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02:35 sorear good * #perl6
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02:39 colomon \o
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02:52 sorear o/ colomon
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04:32 daemon hey all I am new to perl6 even though I do use perl 5 quite alot .. there is parrot and rukudo... if I understand this correctly they are the current compiles for perl6; which one is turnning out to be the more popular
04:32 daemon compilers*
04:34 Eevee parrot is a virtual machine that rakudo runs on
04:34 daemon go it
04:34 daemon just read it in ports descr
04:35 Eevee parrot doesn't understand perl 6 and rakudo doesn't work without parrot
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04:48 sorear rakudo is a compiler which turns Perl 6 into Parrot bytecode
04:48 sorear Parrot is a VM which Rakudo's output runs on
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05:00 sorear daemon: do you follow?
05:04 daemon sorear, certainly do
05:04 daemon its like erlang and BEAM
05:04 daemon the language runs in a virtualized enviromen
05:04 daemon t
05:05 sorear Almost.
05:05 sorear Parrot is designed to be a reusable component (there is a pretty good Lua compiler, and several other things in various states of completeness)
05:06 sorear And Perl 6 has several implementations, only one of which targets Parrot.
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05:22 sufrostico hello!  dumb question...  arew you using .pl as perl6 file extension or the traditional .pl ??
05:22 tadzik usually .pl
05:22 sufrostico I mean, .p6 or .pl
05:22 tadzik or .pl6 :)
05:23 sufrostico nice
05:26 sufrostico thanks
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05:39 tadzik you're welcome
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06:30 dalek niecza: 3074e34 | sorear++ | / (6 files):
06:30 dalek niecza: [mmd] Compiler support for multisubs
06:30 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/3074e343bd
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06:48 dalek niecza: c464669 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
06:48 dalek niecza: [mmd] Finish "multi sub"s
06:48 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c464669002
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07:07 dalek niecza: f40836b | sorear++ | / (2 files):
07:07 dalek niecza: [mmd] Fixes for "my multi regex"
07:07 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/f40836b9fe
07:08 * sorear -> sleep
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07:56 dalek roast: 2b4b33c | moritz++ | S03-operators/range-basic.t:
07:56 dalek roast: [range-basic.t] fudge for niecza
07:56 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2b4b33c957
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07:59 moritz phenny: tell sorear to run t/spec/S06-multi/type-based.t in niecza - 'Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method ast in class Any' at /home/moritz/p6/niecza/src/NieczaActions.pm6 line 212 (NieczaActions NieczaActions.mangle_longname @ 5) (seems to be triggered by param parsing code)
07:59 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
08:00 moritz phenny: tell sorear that bug seems to prevent compilation of most multi-related test files
08:00 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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08:52 dalek niecza: bfe938e | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
08:52 dalek niecza: 7 new passing test files
08:52 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/bfe938e220
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11:59 takadonet morning all
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14:19 tadzik good morning #perl6
14:21 PerlJam gutenMorgen tadzik
14:22 moritz oh hai
14:22 moritz last call for GSOC proposals: about 4 hours left until submission deadline
14:22 tadzik yeah, 4;38
14:23 * tadzik is now after physics exam, can work on GSoC proposal
14:23 PerlJam tadzik: no more spherical cows of uniform density!
14:24 tadzik ho, what? :)
14:24 PerlJam What kind of physics were you taking?
14:25 moritz PerlJam: nono, phycisists use point cows (ie with zero volume but finite mass) in most models :-)
14:25 tadzik Basics of Physics, it's what I failed last semester :\
14:25 moritz is that mechanics?
14:25 PerlJam moritz: yeah, but they always have ridiculous simplifying assumptions  :)
14:26 moritz PerlJam: that's because the real world is too complicated to approach it without such simplifications... and it often turns out that even the ridicolous simplifications can be quite useful
14:28 tadzik moritz: yeah, that exam was mainly mechanics. I don't know the english equivalent names though. Dynamics? The changing mass? Vibrations, as in E = 0.5 * kx^2, this kind of stuff
14:28 PerlJam I don't need proselytizing  :)
14:28 tadzik I don't think that last one is about vibrations
14:28 tadzik phenny: "drgania"?
14:28 phenny tadzik: "Vibration" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
14:28 tadzik or maybe
14:29 tadzik anyway, it went quite well
14:29 tadzik coming soon: magnetism, electostatic stuff, Faradays, Gausses etc
14:32 PerlJam tadzik: btw, you know of Kahn Academy?  And http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/physics/?   And other such resources?
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14:41 tadzik PerlJam: never heard of it
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14:42 PerlJam tadzik: http://www.khanacademy.org/
14:42 tadzik oh, that looks cool
14:42 PerlJam I've been trying out Khan Academy on my kids and it works very well
14:43 tadzik woow
14:43 tadzik awesome
14:44 tadzik Thank you PerlJam
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15:26 moritz tadzik: mechanics usually implies dynamics (and only the engineers study statics :-)
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15:37 jaffa4 hi
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16:05 jaffa4 coud not find compiler module for the language perl6
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16:07 sbp jaffa4: http://rakudo.org/ is a perl6 compiler to parrot bytecode
16:07 sbp not sure what you mean by module though. module of what system?
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16:09 jaffa4 I have something like ahat: perl d:\m\perlscripts\time.pl parrot -y -v -r -L C:\parrot-3.2.0\lib\parrot\languages\rakudo\ D:\m\p6\pirout.pbc
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16:10 jaffa4 This is an error message given back by parrot.
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16:11 moritz how did you build and install rakudo?
16:11 jaffa4 downloaded the binaries
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16:11 jaffa4 the win32 binaries
16:11 jaffa4 perl.exe works
16:12 jaffa4 just I want to run the generated pbc file
16:12 jaffa4 to see how fast an example in itself
16:12 moritz and did you install it?
16:12 jaffa4 ran two installers
16:12 moritz what two installers?
16:12 moritz be specific please
16:12 jaffa4 for parrot and rakudo, into the same directory
16:13 moritz and how did you generate the .pbc?
16:14 jaffa4 setup-parrot-3.2.0.exe
16:14 jaffa4 setup-parrot-3.2.0.exe-raukdo-39.exe
16:14 jaffa4 setup-parrot-3.2.0.exe-rakudo-39.exe
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16:14 jaffa4 THis line perl6 --target=pir  -oD:\m\p6\pirout.pir  D:\m\p6\array.p6
16:15 jaffa4 and parrot -L C:\parrot-3.2.0\lib\parrot\languages\rakudo\ -o D:\m\p6\pirout.pbc    D:\m\p6\pirout.pir
16:15 jaffa4 now do you know everything, moritz?
16:16 moritz jaffa4: of course I don't know everything
16:16 jaffa4 do you have all information what you need now?
16:16 moritz I just tried the equivalent on linux, and it works there
16:16 jaffa4 same flags?
16:18 PerlJam jaffa4: What directory are you in when you execute the line that's giving your grief?
16:18 PerlJam s/your/you/
16:18 moritz no, i left out all the options to parrot except -o
16:19 jaffa4 in c:\parrot-3.2.0\bin
16:20 moritz and it works for me outside of the install location too
16:20 PerlJam yeah. I dunno
16:20 PerlJam perhaps the windows installer didn't install everything?
16:21 jaffa4 possible
16:21 jaffa4 WHat is a compiler module?
16:21 jaffa4 How can I recognise it?
16:21 jaffa4 WHat is its extension?
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16:23 moritz I guess it's just a .pbc file named languages/$lang/$lang.pbc in the parrot installation
16:24 PerlJam jaffa4: does it work if you run it from whatever directory has the perl6.pbc file?
16:26 jaffa4 no, it does not.
16:30 jaffa4 ok, I am rebuilding it from the source
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16:50 sorear good * #perl6
16:50 phenny sorear: 07:59Z <moritz> tell sorear to run t/spec/S06-multi/type-based.t in niecza - 'Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method ast in class Any' at /home/moritz/p6/niecza/src/NieczaActions.pm6 line 212 (NieczaActions NieczaActions.mangle_longname @ 5) (seems to be triggered by param parsing code)
16:50 phenny sorear: 08:00Z <moritz> tell sorear that bug seems to prevent compilation of most multi-related test files
16:53 sorear is jaffa4 |newbie|?
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16:54 moritz seems like
16:54 moritz .oO( the eternal newbie )
16:56 sbp shame that "newbie" as a word has so many negative connotations these days
16:56 sorear jaffa4: Don't try to benchmark Rakudo, it will only end in tears.
16:56 sorear sbp: not here!
16:56 sbp yep, I know. perl6 could do with as many as it can get!
16:56 sbp but it's like hacker amongst enthusiasts vs. use in the media
16:57 sbp creates this ever-so-slightly-annoying usage rift...
16:57 jaffa4 you are everywhere, you are omnipotent.
16:57 * sorear hugs sbp
16:57 jaffa4 sorear, have you cried a lot?
16:58 jaffa4 WHat is your experience?
16:59 sorear rakudo was never designed for runtime performance
16:59 jaffa4 I knew about compile time performance
16:59 jaffa4 not even run-time performance?
16:59 jaffa4 WHat about nietze?
17:00 pmurias * niecza
17:00 jaffa4 niecza: print 4*4
17:00 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«16»
17:01 moritz it has a horrible startup time, but it runs quite fast
17:01 jaffa4 niecza: my $g= print $g*$g
17:01 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method Numeric in class Any␤  at  line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0)␤  at /tmp/yhCmgRZflt line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1277 (CORE C535_ANON @ 2)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line
17:01 p6eval ..1278 (CORE modul…
17:01 jaffa4 niecza: my $g=3; print $g*$g
17:01 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«9»
17:02 jaffa4 IS it possible to avoid the startup time?
17:02 jaffa4 niecza: 4 ==> my $g;
17:02 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Feed ops NYI␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 388 (CORE die @ 2)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1180 (CORE infix:<==>> @ 2)␤  at /tmp/33RZyULE2H line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line
17:02 p6eval ..1277 (CORE C…
17:02 pmurias sorear: if niecza was kept in a persistent process what would the startup performance be?
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17:03 jaffa4 perl6: 4 ==> my $g;
17:04 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Feed ops NYI␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 388 (CORE die @ 2)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1180 (CORE infix:<==>> @ 2)␤  at /tmp/sJQaOE4Lzd line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line
17:04 p6eval ..1277 (CORE C…
17:04 p6eval ..rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Method 'push' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/kXcwb31Ppc␤»
17:04 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected " my"␤    at /tmp/iTY57VJgJz line 1, column 6␤»
17:04 jaffa4 perl6: my $g;4 ==> $g;
17:04 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected " $g"␤    at /tmp/oCHckmqV7d line 1, column 12␤»
17:04 p6eval ..niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Feed ops NYI␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 388 (CORE die @ 2)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1180 (CORE infix:<==>> @ 2)␤  at /tmp/34csMjAIsk line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting
17:04 p6eval ..line 1277 (CORE C…
17:04 p6eval ..rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Method 'push' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/5LdWaM6ovc␤»
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17:12 jaffa4 well, I have different error now
17:12 jaffa4 Could not load oplib `perl6_ops'
17:13 moritz did 'make test' succeed?
17:13 jaffa4 yes
17:14 JimmyZ_ left #perl6
17:15 colomon rakudo: 4 ==> my @g
17:15 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
17:16 colomon rakudo: 4 ==> my @g; say :@g.perl
17:16 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«"g" => [4]␤»
17:17 jaffa4 rakudo: 4 ==> print
17:17 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«4»
17:17 am0c left #perl6
17:20 MayDaniel left #perl6
17:24 sorear jaffa4: did you move Perl6 after compiling it?
17:24 jaffa4 no
17:26 sorear jaffa4: niecza has limited support for avoiding compilation time; try "run\Niecza.exe -c -e 'say "Hello, world"'" and then "obj\MAIN.exe"
17:28 jaffa4 what do you mean limited support?
17:30 sorear well if you want to save the output you need to copy files manually
17:30 PZt left #perl6
17:32 jaffa4 what output?
17:33 Chillance joined #perl6
17:33 sorear obj\MAIN.exe, obj\CORE.dll, obj\Kernel.dll, obj\CrossDomainReceiver.dll, I think those are the only ones you need to save
17:33 sorear unless you're using modules
17:34 sorear "output" = the .exe and .dll files
17:34 jaffa4 ok
17:34 sorear they get overwritten when you run niecza, so if you want to compile an app, you need to save them
17:34 jaffa4 you mean there are generated
17:34 jaffa4 and then there is no need for compilation
17:37 PZt joined #perl6
17:37 sorear niecza: multi foo(5) { }
17:37 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method ast in class Any␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaActions.pm6 line 212 (NieczaActions NieczaActions.mangle_longname @ 5)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaActions.pm6 line 207 (NieczaActions NieczaActions.simple_longname
17:37 p6eval ..@ 2)␤  at /h…
17:39 pmurias sorear: do you know haskell?
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17:52 sorear moritz: that's your type-based.t problem ^^
17:52 sorear pmurias: yes
17:53 moritz niecza: multi foo(Int $ where 5 ) {  }
17:53 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Any()In parameter declaration, typename 'Int' must be predeclared (or marked as declarative with :: prefix) at /tmp/u8IuoZwH7U line 1:␤------> [32mmulti foo(Int[33m⏏[31m $ where 5 ) {  }[0m␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
17:53 * sorear tries to find the Rakudo code for parsing signatues
17:54 moritz niecza: multi foo(Int $x where 5) { }
17:54 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Any()In parameter declaration, typename 'Int' must be predeclared (or marked as declarative with :: prefix) at /tmp/Bfpg2i91fk line 1:␤------> [32mmulti foo(Int[33m⏏[31m $x where 5) { }[0m␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
17:54 moritz iirc rakudo stole from STD.pm
17:54 moritz niecza: multi foo(Int $x) { }
17:54 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Any()In parameter declaration, typename 'Int' must be predeclared (or marked as declarative with :: prefix) at /tmp/Zv_AOQdF3d line 1:␤------> [32mmulti foo(Int[33m⏏[31m $x) { }[0m␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
17:54 sorear niecza doesn't have an "Int" type yet
17:54 moritz oh.
17:54 sorear "where" is also NYI
17:54 moritz niecza: say 3.WHAT
17:54 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.InvalidCastException: Cannot cast from source type to destination type.␤  at Niecza.CtxStrNativeNum2Str.Get (Niecza.Variable obj) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤  at CORE.C259_List_2Ejoin (Niecza.Frame ) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
17:54 p6eval ..␤  at Niecza…
17:54 sorear as is ::T $x, which I don't even understand how it works
17:55 sorear niecza: say 3.WHAT === Num
17:55 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
17:55 moritz ::T $x  is basically   my ::T := $x.WHAT;
17:56 sorear there are ripple effects - most of the rest of the system can't handle typenames being variables
17:56 mtk left #perl6
17:56 sorear the simplest case being something like (::T $x, T $y) -- how does MMD see the type of $y?
17:57 jaffa4 perl6:  ms:g/ (\S+:) <rocks> /
17:57 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Unsupported form of term:name at /tmp/6uX5qmOX2s line 1:␤------> [32mms:g[33m⏏[31m/ (\S+:) <rocks> /[0m␤␤Any()Bogus term at /tmp/6uX5qmOX2s line 1:␤------> [32mms:g/ (\S+[33m⏏[31m:) <rocks> /[0m␤␤Undeclared name:␤     'S' used at
17:57 p6eval ..line Any()1␤Unde…
17:57 p6eval ..rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Adverb 'g' not allowed on m at line 22, near ""␤»
17:57 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤    unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6​.2.13.16/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤    eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HANDLE>' trapped by operat…
17:58 jaffa4 perl6:  "rrrr" ~~ ms:g/ (\S+:) <rocks> /
17:58 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Unsupported form of term:name at /tmp/HeXHGe8ruo line 1:␤------> [32m"rrrr" ~~ ms:g[33m⏏[31m/ (\S+:) <rocks> /[0m␤␤Any()Bogus term at /tmp/HeXHGe8ruo line 1:␤------> [32m"rrrr" ~~ ms:g/ (\S+[33m⏏[31m:) <rocks> /[0m␤␤Undeclared
17:58 p6eval ..name:␤ 'S' used…
17:58 p6eval ..rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Adverb 'g' not allowed on m at line 22, near ""␤»
17:58 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤    unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6​.2.13.16/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤    eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HANDLE>' trapped by operat…
17:59 sorear the error message should make it clear.  ms:g is not going to work.
17:59 mtk joined #perl6
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18:01 sorear to really benefit from MMD, niecza will need roles and the numeric type ladder soon
18:02 moritz i guess that the lack of Int type prevents most MMD tests in the spectest suite to run
18:02 moritz because most people consider it (or at leat a faked, non-bigint version of it) "easy" for a Perl 6 compiler
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18:06 DWSR Is P6 production ready?
18:07 moritz "no", for most values of "production"
18:07 DWSR Cool.
18:07 DWSR iirc, 6 is supposed to be getting some OO enhancements, right?
18:08 DWSR For some reason, the site is not working for me.
18:08 DWSR So I figured I'd ask here
18:08 moritz which one? perl6.org?
18:08 moritz yes, perl 6 has a pretty cool object model, and rakudo implements rather big parts of it
18:09 moritz it does classes, roles, parametric roles, introspection, class construction through the metaclass
18:09 DWSR Huzzah
18:09 moritz multi method
18:10 araujo left #perl6
18:10 PerlJam DWSR: moritz meant to say,  "P6 is production ready for some small values of 'production'"    :-)
18:10 moritz rakudo: role B { method c() { say "hello DWSR" } }; class A does B { method b() { self.c } }; A.new.b
18:11 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«hello DWSR␤»
18:11 * PerlJam fills moritz's glass halfway to empty
18:12 moritz rakudo: class A { has $.a = 3; has $.b = 5; has $.c = $.a * $.b }; say A.new(a => 2).c
18:12 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«10␤»
18:12 jaffa4 introspection?
18:12 moritz this feature is quite nice
18:12 DWSR Anyway, nifty.
18:12 DWSR Thanks for the info.
18:12 moritz you're welcome
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18:15 tadzik moritz: I've updated my proposal to consider the exams, would you mind taking a critic look at it before I update it on Melange?
18:15 moritz tadzik: URL?
18:15 sorear niecza: my token foo:abc { <[a..z]>+ }; my token foo:num { \d+ }; say "--abc--123de----".comb(/<&foo>/).perl
18:15 p6eval niecza v4-32-gbfe938e: OUTPUT«["abc", "123", "de"]␤»
18:16 sorear how much of a feature is this?
18:16 moritz wow, that's ncie
18:16 moritz sorear++
18:16 araujo left #perl6
18:16 tadzik moritz: https://gist.github.com/892249
18:16 tadzik looks like Github can't do gist revision diffs (yet)
18:17 tadzik moritz: http://wklej.org/id/508809/ the diff alone
18:18 mtk joined #perl6
18:18 moritz tadzik: looks fine
18:18 moritz (I've cloned the gist locally and ran 'git show' there :-)
18:19 plobsing joined #perl6
18:20 tadzik yeah, sane behaviour :)
18:20 tadzik ok, updating
18:21 araujo joined #perl6
18:21 tadzik done, whew
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18:35 dalek niecza: 58c0836 | pmurias++ | hoopl/ (2 files):
18:35 dalek niecza: [hoopl] seperate loading the optree into a seperate module
18:35 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/58c08364f4
18:41 dalek niecza: bfeeb72 | sorear++ | src/NieczaFrontendSTD.pm6:
18:41 dalek niecza: Prevent redundant categorical generation in CORE (speeds up CORE parse by 50%)
18:41 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/bfeeb72864
18:41 dalek niecza: a740a32 | sorear++ | src/niecza:
18:41 dalek niecza: Refactor categoricals allowing user-defined postcircumfixes
18:41 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/a740a32842
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18:49 pmurias looking up an lexical is side-effect free?
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18:53 sorear pmurias: depends on what you mean by "looking up"
18:54 tadzik sorear: remember the locale issue?
18:54 tadzik my dot being comma, and so
18:54 sorear tadzik: oh yeah
18:55 dalek niecza: 290b117 | sorear++ | src/niecza:
18:55 dalek niecza: Implement user-defined circumfix operators
18:55 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/290b117776
18:56 pmurias sorear: scopedlex nam op
18:56 jaffa4 left #perl6
18:57 sorear pmurias: with 1 arg it's side effect free
18:57 tadzik sorear: is it fixable inside niecza, or the user involvement will always be necessary?
18:58 sorear tadzik: it is fixable
19:02 pmurias tadzik: you use polish locale?
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19:07 tadzik pmurias: aye
19:07 tadzik I'm still looking for a "let me type ą in urxvt but don't translate apps" set of variables :)
19:08 sorear tadzik: how do you type that in urxvt?
19:08 tadzik sorear: right alt + a
19:08 tadzik it's in my keyboard layout, which is a modified colemak
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19:09 pmurias tadzik: i have en_US.UTF-8 for everything
19:09 pmurias and i have a polish keyboard layout
19:09 tadzik hmm
19:10 tadzik heh, somebody submitted a GSoC proposal 150 seconds before the deadline
19:10 sorear tadzik: how do you set keyboard layouts like that?
19:10 pjcj left #perl6
19:10 tadzik sorear: `setxkbmap colemakpl`, having colemakpl in my /usr/share/somewhere
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19:17 tadzik sorear: btw, the backtrace if full of   at /home/stefan/rel/niecza-reboot/src/STD.pm6 line 812 (STD STD.dec_number @ 32)
19:18 tadzik is that something hard-coded?
19:20 sorear what, the path?
19:21 flussence_ ("ą" is AltGr + ['+', 'a'] on my en_GB layout; all the symbol keys are assigned compose functions. Never seen it documented anywhere though.)
19:22 sorear flussence_: what is the press/release sequence for that?
19:23 flussence_ hold altgr+shift, press the =/+ key, press a
19:24 sorear does nothing in en_US :(
19:25 flussence_ maybe it's a case of different keyboard layouts' code written by different people...
19:26 tadzik sorear: yeah
19:27 tadzik AltGr with + is × for me
19:27 tadzik I just hold AltGr, then press a
19:27 sorear tadzik: the paths for backtraces are compiled in at compile time, so it's telling you where I had STD.pm6 when I generated niecza-4.zip
19:28 tadzik sorear: what happens if you do `setxkbmap pl` before?
19:28 tadzik sorear: I see
19:28 sorear whee, 'LC_ALL=pl_PL' breaks niecza
19:28 flussence_ even more annoying is that gtk has ctrl+shift+u, urxvt has something that I can't figure out but seems to be an extension, and Qt apparently assigns unused altgr combinations randomly.
19:29 flussence_ sorear: thousand/decimal separator bug?
19:29 sorear flussence_: yeah tadzik's been having decimal separator issues
19:29 sorear I can now reproduce it
19:30 sorear flussence_: (urxvt) hold down control-shift and type, say, 3080
19:31 tadzik flussence_: yeah, I don't know if it's possible to use emacs-style keyboard shortcuts in Qt
19:32 tadzik sorear: oh, ideograms
19:35 pmurias sorear: when manipulating nam if i want to change foo(bar()) into tmp=bar() and foo(tmp) i should use let?
19:36 sorear yes
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19:36 sorear for hoopl it would probably be better to turn nam into register code in the parser
19:36 sorear hoopl looks like it's really designed for register/SSA code
19:37 sorear the fact that nam uses tree code is mostly because it's very hard to convert SSA into compact code for stack machines like the JVM and CLR
19:38 pmurias by parser you mean the niecza-hoopl loader or part of niecza?
19:40 pmurias sorear: i'm converting the tree form into register form as the tree form seems hard to do optimalisations on
19:41 pmurias i won't do SSA as it was invented in opposition to dataflow analysis
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19:41 pmurias and it's mainly usefull for doing simple optimalisations fast (like a C compiler would do)
19:41 pmurias i implemented the transformation to SSA in mildew once
19:46 sorear hrm, en_GB layout *is* completely different...
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19:48 pmurias sorear: it's slightly different
19:49 pmurias but really annoying to someone used to the us one
19:49 pmurias s/to/for/
19:49 sorear the letters are the same
19:50 benabik sorear: But the real question is: is all the punctuation needed for perl the same?
19:50 sorear benabik: no
19:50 benabik Then it's really annoying. :)
19:51 proller joined #perl6
19:52 * jnthn can't Perl on a US keyboard. It's all wrong. :P
19:53 jnthn (I suspect that the same feeling would occur the other way around.)
19:53 sorear After today I won't be able to either. :D
19:53 jnthn :)
19:53 jnthn sorear: Oh?
19:53 jnthn sorear: Switching keyboard layout?
19:54 pmurias left #perl6
19:54 sorear I kid, but only slightly.  en_GB can get guillemots without compose-key trickery
19:57 jnthn :)
19:58 pmurias joined #perl6
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20:03 masak oh hai, zebras
20:03 tadzik oh hai maska
20:03 sorear hello masaka!
20:04 tadzik . o O ( hello roreas and datzik )
20:05 jnthn Videl som masaka dnes :)
20:07 daemon left #perl6
20:08 pmurias sorear: if i convert nam to a register based form how should i turn it back to something that can be compiled to .net efficently?
20:10 sorear pmurias: oh, I thought hoopl was something totally separate
20:10 sorear hmm
20:10 sorear I think the only good way is to map registers to .net locals
20:10 sorear niecza: my token foo:abc { <[a..z]>+ }; my token foo:num { \d+ }; say "--abc--123de----".comb(/<&foo>/).perl # for masak
20:11 p6eval niecza v4-36-g290b117: OUTPUT«["abc", "123", "de"]␤»
20:11 sorear TimToady: Under what circumstances should Str/Num conversions be locale sensitive?
20:11 masak sorear++!
20:13 pmurias sorear: totally seperate to what?
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20:14 pmurias sorear: doesn't the CPS transformation stop you from using the stack much?
20:17 pmurias sorear: is using .net local variables slower or does the jit handle them efficently?
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20:19 Spogg Spogg; say 42 + 8
20:19 sorear pmurias: registers which are live across cpscalls need to be spilled to the frame
20:19 sorear perl6: say 42 + 8
20:19 p6eval pugs, rakudo 4bf132, niecza v4-36-g290b117: OUTPUT«50␤»
20:20 Spogg Spogg: say 42 + 8
20:20 Spogg Spogg: say 42 + 8
20:20 Spogg perl6: say 42 + 8
20:20 p6eval pugs, rakudo 4bf132, niecza v4-36-g290b117: OUTPUT«50␤»
20:21 Spogg perl6: say 5555555555555555555555555555555555555555555​5555555555555555555555555555555555555555555​555555555555555555555555555555555555555555 + 555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555​555555555555555555555465783213546254356452146546
20:22 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«6.02556267734054e+17␤»
20:22 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«555555555555555555555555555555561111111​1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111​1111111111111111021338769101809912007702101␤»
20:22 p6eval ..niecza v4-36-g290b117: OUTPUT«5.55555555555556E+127␤»
20:22 pmurias sorear: so is the .net niecza backend register based internally?
20:23 Spogg fuck
20:23 Spogg fdds
20:23 Spogg fsd
20:23 Spogg fs
20:23 Spogg df
20:23 Spogg sd
20:23 Spogg f
20:23 Spogg sd
20:23 Spogg fds
20:23 Spogg f
20:23 Spogg s
20:23 Spogg df
20:23 Spogg left #perl6
20:24 masak ...right.
20:25 flussence_ ooh, his ISP's abuse page specifically has an "IRC abuse" option :)
20:26 masak ooh
20:29 sorear pmurias: the .net backend is stack based, but the JIT turns it into register code
20:33 pmurias so using locals a lot would just mean the bytecode would be bigger?
20:34 sorear I think so, but it depends on how good your spiller is
20:34 sorear the CLRBackend spiller actually reorders code in some cases to improve spill quality, it's a rather large win
20:35 sorear eg foo($x, bar()) will delay the $x so that it doesn't have to be spilled
20:35 masak alpha: my constant preoccupation = 42; say preoccupation
20:35 p6eval alpha : OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 10, near "constant p"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
20:36 sorear perl6: my constant preoccupation = 42; say preoccupation
20:36 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "preoccupation"␤    expecting ":" or "("␤    at /tmp/kaqNNJKdv1 line 1, column 13␤»
20:36 p6eval ..rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Constant type declarator not yet implemented at line 22, near "= 42; say "␤»
20:36 p6eval ..niecza v4-36-g290b117: OUTPUT«42␤»
20:36 masak niecza++
20:37 sorear rakudo: say Parcel.list.perl
20:37 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«()␤»
20:37 pmurias sorear: where in code is the spiller implemented?
20:38 sorear pmurias: the heart is in CpsOp.Primitive at line 2075
20:39 sorear that introduces lets where needed to avoid having anything on the eval stack across a cps call
20:44 pmurias what's a zyg?
20:45 moritz a child
20:45 masak short for 'zygote'.
20:45 moritz a larryism
20:46 * pmurias hates all the strange names from gimme5
20:47 masak it's a $*HIGHMESS? :P
20:48 sorear rakudo: say "abc".WHAT
20:48 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
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21:03 dalek niecza: 36c239a | sorear++ | / (5 files):
21:03 dalek niecza: Fix locale sensitivity of JSYNC et al, fix undef handling in contexts
21:03 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/36c239a3dc
21:04 tadzik yay
21:04 leprevost left #perl6
21:06 sorear phenny: tell TimToady does it ever make sense for 1.5 eq "1,5" in Perl 6?  When should locales be honored?
21:06 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
21:06 tadzik sorear: I'll still need to workaround the included, precompiled niecza
21:08 tadzik LC_ALL="C" make doesn't work
21:11 rdesfo1 left #perl6
21:12 flussence_ export LC_ALL="C" ?
21:12 flussence_ I think sometimes the var doesn't get passed to subprocesses for whatever reason...
21:12 tadzik same
21:12 tadzik and after that `locale` gives ok results
21:13 tadzik I mean, everything's "C"
21:13 flussence_ hrm
21:15 sorear tadzik: yes that won't work fully until the next precompiled release
21:16 sorear tadzik: also the .nam files are likely corrupted from the unsuccessful attempt
21:17 sorear this change, by itself, still requires LC_ALL=C when running the compiler
21:17 sorear it only allows to avoid it for precompiled code
21:17 tadzik see above, it doesn't work for me
21:17 sorear ie "mono run/Niecza.exe -c test.pl; LC_ALL=pl_PL mono obj/MAIN.exe" works for me now
21:21 TimToady the point of "zyg" is to sort all then end-weight child nodes to the end of the list of hash keys
21:21 phenny TimToady: 21:06Z <sorear> tell TimToady does it ever make sense for 1.5 eq "1,5" in Perl 6?  When should locales be honored?
21:21 * TimToady hates locales very much
21:23 * TimToady thinks locale-based calls should contain "locale" somewhere in the function names
21:23 * pyrimidine happens to like 'zyg'
21:23 * pyrimidine also happens to be a biologist
21:24 * flussence_ likes gettext's _() for the low effort of adding it to code
21:24 sorear do you think it's reasonable to legislate that (1/2) ~~ /\x2E/ the world around?
21:25 TimToady yes, I believe in cultural imperialism to that extent
21:26 flussence_ formatting it for regional human consumption should be an extra thing, like html-encoding and stuff like that.
21:26 moritz rakudo: say chr(0x2e)
21:26 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«.␤»
21:26 moritz that's what I thought :-)
21:27 TimToady at most, I think locale-based computing should be restricted to scopes that declare "use locale"
21:27 moritz ... and that doesn't need to be a core pragma :-)
21:27 flussence_ there's no shortage of external libs to format numbers, and they usually come with language translation stuff since it's not much use doing it halfway.
21:28 flussence_ core stuff should do machine-readable output for that reason
21:29 TimToady note also that "123 456,78" is TTIAR :)
21:31 flussence_ or to put it another way, do it in a way that minimises the number of developers who'll want to strangle you.
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21:33 sorear tadzik: looks like I can't put out a bootstrap quite that easily, I seem to have introduced a bug somewhere and the bootstrapped niecza thinks "self" is a syntax error
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21:47 sorear TimToady: the way STD generates declarative prefix DFAs with 5000+ states bothers me a bit...
21:47 sorear not sure what to do about it though
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22:23 masak 'night, #perl6
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22:46 dalek niecza: d9bb470 | sorear++ | test2.pl:
22:46 dalek niecza: Add tests for custom (post)circumfixes
22:46 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/d9bb470445
22:46 dalek niecza: 3c51536 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
22:46 dalek niecza: Update bootstrap for locale bug fix
22:46 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/3c5153649b
22:46 sorear tadzik: I just had a successful build with LC_ALL=pl_PL
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22:57 sorear tadzik: any luck?
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