Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-04-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:10 pmurias sorear: in mildew my $x := 1; my $y := $x; $x := 2; say($y) printed 1
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02:03 crakrjak camelia really?
02:05 TimToady just for you
02:06 crakrjak how long has perl6 been into the making?
02:06 sjn many years \o/
02:06 crakrjak i remember reading about it a long time ago it seems
02:07 TimToady 10 years or so
02:07 crakrjak surprised its not production ready yet
02:07 TimToady we're trying to do something impossible, so it takes a while
02:08 crakrjak does it do all the modern stuff like authentication federation, orm, parallel processing, etc?
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02:09 TimToady parallel is built-in; orm should be trivial with our repr interfaces
02:09 TimToady dunno about af
02:09 crakrjak neat
02:10 crakrjak i have used perl for many years and recently i have been wondering if i shouldnt start using python more
02:10 TimToady we think a lot about multi-cores
02:10 crakrjak there is a party in my backyard
02:11 crakrjak nice chatting with you
02:11 crakrjak later!
02:11 TimToady likewise
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02:26 diakopter !addquote  <TimToady> we're trying to do something impossible, so it takes a while
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03:18 [Coke] I wonder if irc logs should render the NL char in output as an actual newline.
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03:34 [Coke] TimToady: I agree with your
03:36 [Coke] ... whoops. Statement regarding more caffeine.
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04:13 lue hello world! o/
04:13 lue masak: yeah, that is out-of-date.
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04:22 lue tadzik: I'll look more why into ambient material won't parse (and when I set \H+ as a possible blocktype, why =begin Text and such won't parse). There should be a @sample[3] though.
04:23 lue [to me, having to comment out a test because it doesn't work seems... ironic?]
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07:52 tadzik wow wow, have you seen new Github issues?
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10:02 TiMBuS my $who = ($raw<user> || $raw<server>) but role {}; #<- segfaults rakudo, cannot seem to figure out why
10:03 moritz rakudo: say (my $ || my $).WHAT
10:03 TiMBuS my $who = ($raw<user> || $raw<server>); $who does role {}; is fine
10:03 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Contextual $*GOAL not found␤»
10:03 * moritz submits rakudobug
10:04 moritz TiMBuS: I suspect it might return some parrot-y thing from the ||
10:04 TiMBuS seems fine with a cut down version in the repl tho
10:04 moritz TiMBuS: and assignment turns it into an Any or so
10:06 TiMBuS hmmm
10:06 TiMBuS rakudo: my $a = (my $ || 3) but role {method foo {say 'bar'}}; say $a.foo;
10:06 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«bar␤Bool::True␤»
10:07 moritz rakudo: my $b; say (my $ || $b).PARROT
10:07 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Perl6Scalar->␤»
10:07 TiMBuS oh.
10:07 TiMBuS thats probably it
10:07 moritz what is $raw<server> in your program?
10:07 TiMBuS Match
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10:09 moritz hm
10:09 moritz and Match.Bool returns True?
10:09 TiMBuS well $raw is a Match, im not sure if the string its returning is a match or not. I forget how that works
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10:10 TiMBuS $raw.Bool is definitely true if that's what you mean
10:11 moritz just add a   say $raw<server>.perl
10:11 TiMBuS yeah its just a match
10:12 moritz what abotu $raw<server>.Bool ?
10:12 TiMBuS Bool::True
10:13 moritz hm
10:13 moritz then I don't understand it in the least
10:13 TiMBuS :[
10:16 jnthn ->...nothing? Hm.
10:16 jnthn (re the segfault)
10:16 jnthn Something looks odd there.
10:17 jnthn Leaking Parrot type feels like a good guess though.
10:17 TiMBuS Null PMC access in find_method('perl')
10:17 TiMBuS theres a good start
10:17 jnthn Ah
10:17 TiMBuS say $raw<user>.perl; say $raw<server>.perl;
10:18 TiMBuS so i guess $raw<user> is not a Match because it didnt.. match
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10:20 TiMBuS got it
10:20 TiMBuS rakudo: my $f = 'fdas' ~~ /$<foo>='a'|$<bar>='b'/; say $f<b>.WHAT
10:20 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Proxy()␤»
10:21 TiMBuS welp, that looks hecka complicated and thinking give me wrinkles so
10:21 * TiMBuS skips off
10:24 moritz TiMBuS: you have no <b> capture in that regex
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10:27 TiMBuS moritz, yeah i know, but it shouldnt crash rakudo about it
10:27 TiMBuS rakudo: my $f = 'fdas' ~~ /$<foo>='a'|$<bar>='b'/; say $f<b>.perl;
10:27 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in find_method('perl')␤  in <anon> at line 1310:CORE.setting␤  in 'Any::join' at line 1␤  in 'Mu::attribs' at line 1311:CORE.setting␤  in 'Mu::perl' at line 1315:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/v156cpgav1␤»
10:30 TiMBuS so i guess.. it boild down to $a = Match.new(); say $a<foo>.perl
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10:36 h4nnibal hi perlies
10:37 TiMBuS alright so im completely wrong now
10:37 moritz hi h4nnibal
10:38 TiMBuS my $imm = ($raw<user> || $raw<server>); my $who = $imm but role {  };
10:38 TiMBuS still segfaults
10:38 TiMBuS $imm.perl gives a match
10:38 TiMBuS which is $raw<server>
10:39 TiMBuS so. yeah..
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10:43 sirmacik Hi there
10:43 TiMBuS rakudo: my $f = 'fdas' ~~ /$<foo>='a'|$<bar>='b'/; say $f<foo>.clone
10:44 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
10:44 TiMBuS cool
10:44 TiMBuS rakudo: my $f = 'fdas' ~~ /$<foo>='a'/; say $f<foo>.clone
10:44 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
10:44 TiMBuS theeere we have it
10:45 sirmacik Maybe You know why rakudo gives me Segmentation Fault during compillation? http://wklej.org/id/509781/ and this is my modified PKGBUILD: http://wklej.org/id/509782/
10:47 TiMBuS can't say i know anything about that
10:47 TiMBuS what OS?
10:47 moritz perl Configure.pl --parrot-config=/usr/bin/parrot_config --target=pir
10:47 sirmacik Archlinux
10:47 moritz wtf?
10:47 moritz what's that --target doing there?
10:48 sirmacik that's rather one of the lines I've tried
10:48 sirmacik ;x
10:48 sirmacik generally it stops on that error with or without any options
10:49 sirmacik TiMBuS: what else do You want to know?
10:49 moritz sirmacik: uhm, did it even successfully configure with that bogus option?
10:50 sirmacik yes, but I think that this option is not the problem
10:50 moritz well, it surely indicates a problem
10:50 moritz because Configure.pl is supposed to die on unknown options
10:51 moritz seems it doesn't
10:51 moritz hm
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10:51 moritz sirmacik: usually such segfaults come from "tainted" parrot environments
10:51 moritz sirmacik: ie if you installed two parrot versions into the same location, and not all files where overridden
10:51 TiMBuS yeah thats all i can think of. have you installed an old old parrot
10:52 moritz sirmacik: or if a previous rakudo installation was there, and hasn't been cleaned out before or so
10:52 moritz I haven't seen a rakudo build segfault in a clean environment for ages
10:52 TiMBuS a libparrot.so floating around somewhere would also be a problem
10:53 sirmacik I've fresh parrot-git
10:53 sirmacik an there wwasn't any rakudo before. It's quite fresh installation
10:54 jnthn Any chance of getting a backtrace so we can see where it segfaults?
10:54 jnthn It may or may not help...
10:55 sirmacik ok, give me a second
10:57 TiMBuS this is why i now just use --gen-parrot =/
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11:16 sirmacik jnthn: this is log from the part with error http://wklej.org/id/509802/
11:17 moritz can enums be monkey-patched?
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11:20 jnthn wtf, Parrot crashes when turning PIR into a bytecode file?!
11:20 jnthn /usr/bin/parrot  -o src/gen/perl6.pbc src/Perl6/Compiler.pir
11:21 jnthn That's...not something that's liable to fail. :/
11:21 jnthn sirmacik: Any chance you can gdb /usr/bin/parrot and then r -o src/gen/perl6.pbc src/Perl6/Compiler.pir, and bt?
11:21 jnthn Or similar with your preferred debugger... :)
11:22 sirmacik gdb tells me that there are no debugging symbols in /usr/bin/parrot
11:23 tadzik did you --debugging=0 parrot?
11:23 dalek errors: 3d91060 | moritz++ | notes.pod:
11:23 dalek errors: some non-conclusive thoughts on error classification
11:23 dalek errors: review: https://github.com/perl6/errors/commit/3d9106077f
11:23 jnthn Oh.
11:25 sirmacik └─> /usr/bin/parrot -t -o src/gen/perl6.pbc src/Perl6/Compiler.pir
11:25 sirmacik error:imcc:loadlib directive could not find library `perl6_group' in file 'src/Perl6/Compiler.pir' line 10
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11:29 tadzik has anyone tested Rakudo after Parrot's imcc_compreg_pmc merge?
11:30 * moritz kinda hopes that the parrot folks have, prior to merging
11:30 moritz doing that now...
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11:44 moritz sirmacik: fwiw I also get some rakudo segfaults on newest parrot, though not in build
11:44 moritz sirmacik: I recommend to use the parrot revision in the build/PARROT_REVISION file, then you should get a fairly stable rakudo
11:45 sirmacik ok, thanks
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12:09 sirmacik moritz build with --gen-parrot has also failed with the following error http://wklej.org/id/509847/
12:10 moritz sirmacik: what's the name of your make utility?
12:10 moritz is it 'make' or 'gmake' or what?
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12:11 sirmacik make
12:12 sirmacik GNU Make 3.81
12:12 moritz hm
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12:59 moritz lolIblug: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/grant-report-errors-1.html
12:59 moritz [Coke]: do you follow planetsix? or should I notify you separately when I blog grant progress reports?
13:00 jnthn moritz++
13:01 donri I read that as lolibug
13:02 * moritz also bugs people
13:04 * jnthn -> huskvarna
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14:26 miso2217_ Am I missong something about the exemple on the regex backtracking in the Using Perl 6 book? :
14:26 miso2217_ perl 6: my regex word { \w+ [ \' \w+]? }; my regex dup { <word=&word> \W+ $<word> }; if 'strand and beach' ~~ m/<&dup>/ { say 'match'; } else { say 'no match'; }
14:26 miso2217_ perl6: my regex word { \w+ [ \' \w+]? }; my regex dup { <word=&word> \W+ $<word> }; if 'strand and beach' ~~ m/<&dup>/ { say 'match'; } else { say 'no match'; }
14:26 p6eval rakudo 4bf132, niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«match␤»
14:26 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "word"␤    expecting ":" or "("␤    at /tmp/CbZLs64Xp0 line 1, column 10␤»
14:26 miso2217_ rakudo: my regex word { \w+ [ \' \w+]? }; my regex dup { <word=&word> \W+ $<word> }; if 'strand and beach' ~~ m/<&dup>/ { say 'match'; } else { say 'no match'; }
14:26 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«match␤»
14:27 miso2217_ rakudo: my regex word { :ratchet \w+ [ \' \w+]? }; my regex dup { <word=&word> \W+ $<word> }; if 'strand and beach' ~~ m/<&dup>/ { say 'match'; } else { say 'no match'; }
14:27 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«match␤»
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14:28 miso2217_ the book says: "no match, doesn't match the 'and' in 'strand' without backtracking"
14:28 moritz rakudo: my regex word { \w+ [ \' \w+]? }; my regex dup { :ratchet <word=&word> \W+ $<word> }; if 'strand and beach' ~~ &dup { say 'match' } else { say 'no match' }
14:28 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«match␤»
14:28 moritz hm
14:29 miso2217_ rakudo: my token word { \w+ [ \' \w+]? }; my regex dup { <word=&word> \W+ $<word> }; if 'strand and beach' ~~ m/<&dup>/ { say 'match'; } else { say 'no match'; }
14:29 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«match␤»
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14:31 moritz rakudo: my regex word { \w+ [ \' \w+]? }; my regex dup { :ratchet <word=&word> \W+ $<word> }; if 'strand and beach' ~~ &dup { say 'match ', $/ } else { say 'no match' }
14:31 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«match and and␤»
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14:40 takadonet morning all
14:42 moritz rakudo: my token word { \w+ [ \' \w+]? }; my regex dup { :ratchet <word=&word> \W+ $<word> }; if 'strand and beach' ~~ &dup { say 'match ', $/ } else { say 'no match' }
14:42 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«match and and␤»
14:42 moritz rakudo: my token word { \w+ [ \' \w+]? }; my regex token { <word=&word> \W+ $<word> }; if 'strand and beach' ~~ &dup { say 'match ', $/ } else { say 'no match' }
14:42 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &dup␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/LDgeMYyrW_␤»
14:42 moritz rakudo: my token word { \w+ [ \' \w+]? }; my  token dup { <word=&word> \W+ $<word> }; if 'strand and beach' ~~ &dup { say 'match ', $/ } else { say 'no match' }
14:43 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«match and and␤»
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15:04 miso2217_ moritz: may be the exemple is just bad. I don't know if the :ratchet modifier (and token keyword) should control also releasing charachers from the start of the string. The test from the synopses pases as I would it expet to pass:
15:04 miso2217_ rakudo: if 'bazaar' ~~ /:ratchet a* a/ { say '3.1 match' } else { say '3.2 no match' }
15:04 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«3.2 no match␤»
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15:46 masak hello zebras. greetings from .pl
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15:48 tadzik oh, Poland?
15:48 masak that's the one.
15:48 tadzik where are you?
15:49 masak kraków
15:49 masak how about you? :)
15:49 tadzik oh cool. Right now Izabelin, just outside Warsaw
15:49 tadzik and usually it's Warsaw
15:49 masak thought so.
15:49 tadzik business time?
15:49 masak yes. I'm here for a three-day CQRS course.
15:50 masak (CQRS is a silly acronym for a deeply cool concept.)
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15:52 tadzik quick, a contest for the best match!
15:53 tadzik Cows Quite Rove Sweets. Hrm
15:53 masak Can 'Quit' Really Save?
15:54 sirmacik "CentOS 5.6 nareszcie wydany" ;F
15:55 tadzik ww? :)
15:55 sirmacik oh, wrong channel... sorry ;x
15:55 tadzik (:
15:55 masak phenny: "CentOS 5.6 nareszcie wydany"?
15:55 phenny masak: "CentOS 5.6 finally released" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
15:55 masak 'wydany' == 'out-given'?
15:55 sirmacik rather released
15:56 masak right. I'm thinking of the etymology.
15:56 tadzik close
15:56 tadzik you can be "wydany" as a wife
15:56 tadzik so you become a wife, you're "wydany za mąż"
15:56 tadzik phenny: "wydany za mąż"?
15:56 phenny tadzik: "issued for husband" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
15:57 tadzik notmuch
15:57 masak 'issued' and 'released' are sort of synonyms.
15:59 tadzik sirmacik: how are the packages?
16:00 sirmacik I have succedeed with building rakudo-git with stable parrot package from Arch's Community repository
16:00 masak \o/
16:00 sirmacik it was failing with --gen-parrot and parrot-git ;F
16:03 masak that's odd.
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16:15 * masak is thinking of where to go eat
16:15 masak tadzik: got any suggestions?
16:15 tadzik masak: nah, I'm out of ideas
16:15 tadzik oh, about eating
16:15 tadzik hmm, I don't know anything Kraków-specific
16:15 masak ok. :)
16:15 tadzik hmm, I'm wondering
16:15 masak guess I'll just go to the main square and see what's on offer.
16:15 tadzik you can try gastronauci.pl
16:15 tadzik that's a community of people liking to eat and rating restaurants
16:15 masak ooh
16:15 masak I do love these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierogi
16:15 tadzik :)
16:15 masak so if I found such a place, I'd be happy.
16:15 tadzik masak: oh, they're everywhere
16:15 tadzik http://www.gastronauci.pl/restauracje/krakow
16:16 masak \o/
16:16 tadzik you can easily buy those in a supermarket, put on a frying pan and they're actually good
16:16 masak Poland. I could totally live here.
16:16 masak well, I'm in a hotel, so no frying pans nearby.
16:16 tadzik I think you can find "Pierogarnia" quite easily
16:16 tadzik phenny: "pierogarnia"?
16:16 phenny tadzik: Language guessing failed, so try suggesting one!
16:16 tadzik phenny: I thought so
16:16 tadzik masak: a Pierogi-specific restaurant, like a Pizzeria
16:17 masak a "pirogeria" :)
16:17 tadzik masak: you can check a "pierogarnia" combobox on that site I gave you
16:17 masak excellent. I'm glad I asked.
16:18 masak and chance things are open on a Sunday evening?
16:18 moritz miso2217_: point is that every regex, if ratcheting or not, tries every start position until a match is found
16:18 tadzik moritz: http://www.gastronauci.pl/7294-pierogarnia-zapiecek-krakow looks good
16:18 tadzik masak: I'm quite certain most of those are open
16:18 moritz miso2217_: the example doesn't need to backtrack to match
16:19 xinming left #perl6
16:19 masak "#perl6: helps you find a place to eat"
16:19 masak thanks, guys.
16:19 tadzik "Poland. You're welcome"
16:19 tadzik phenny: "gościnność"?
16:19 phenny tadzik: "hospitality" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
16:20 xinming joined #perl6
16:20 tadzik I think hospitality is known to be a good side of Poland
16:20 tadzik well, they say so :)
16:21 masak except for the people sitting in information desks. :(
16:22 masak both the girl at the airport and the woman at the train station were clearly uninterested in assisting a tourist.
16:22 masak oh well. I found the hotel without much trouble.
16:22 tadzik oh, the white-collar people happen to be annoying sometimes
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16:23 masak I wondered if it was because I was speaking English. that generally gives mixed results around here.
16:24 moritz try with Swedish next time :-)
16:24 * masak puts on a chef hat and sprinkles flour all over the place
16:25 masak bork bork bork!
16:25 * masak --> nommery
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16:28 miso2217_ moritz: strange, this one works: if 'aaaab ab' ~~ / :ratchet (<[ab]>* ab) \W+ $0 /  { say '3.1 match:', $/ } else { say '3.2 no match' }
16:28 miso2217_ rakudo: if 'aaaab ab' ~~ / :ratchet (<[ab]>* ab) \W+ $0 /  { say '3.1 match:', $/ } else { say '3.2 no match' }
16:28 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«3.2 no match␤»
16:30 moritz rakudo: say 'aaab' ~~ /<[ab]>* ab/; # should match
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16:31 moritz rakudo: say 'aaab' ~~ /:ratchet <[ab]>* ab/; # shouldn't match
16:31 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«aaab␤»
16:31 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«␤»
16:31 moritz rakudo: say so 'aaab' ~~ /:ratchet <[ab]>* ab/; # shouldn't match
16:31 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
16:32 moritz rakudo: say so 'aaab ab' ~~ /:ratchet (a* b) \s $0/; # matches for the same reason as above
16:32 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
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16:57 takadonet i got a lazy grammar!
16:59 moritz \o/
16:59 * moritz was lazy and let takadonet write the lazy grammar :-)
17:00 takadonet had to interface directly with parrot but I got somewhat what I wanted
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17:21 miso2217_ Ok, si is there any difference between the following two?:
17:21 miso2217_ rakudo: if 'aaaab ab' ~~ / :ratchet (<[ab]>* ab) \W+ $0 /  { say '3.1 match:', $/ } else { say '3.2 no match' }
17:21 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«3.2 no match␤»
17:21 miso2217_ rakudo: my regex word3 { :ratchet <[ab]>* }; my regex dup3 { :ratchet <word3=&word3> \W+ $<word3> }; if 'aaaab ab' ~~ m/<&dup3>/ { say '4.1 match:', $/; } else { say '4.2 no match'; }
17:21 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«4.1 match:ab ab␤»
17:23 moritz miso2217_: (<[ab]>* ab) doesn't match under :ratchet
17:23 moritz miso2217_: because the <[ab]>+ uses up the 'aaaab', and nothing left for the 'ab' to match
17:25 moritz it doesn't even get to the \W+
17:27 miso2217_ moritz: there is sitll ' ab' left for matching no?
17:28 MayDaniel_ left #perl6
17:28 miso2217_ moritz: I'm matching against 'aaaab ab' not just 'aaaab'
17:29 masak joined #perl6
17:29 moritz miso2217_: yes, but there's nothing in the regex that could match the ' '
17:30 masak mmm, pierogi...
17:30 moritz miso2217_: the <[ab]>* matches 'aaaab'. Then the 'ab' of the regex is matched against the ' ab' of the string
17:30 moritz miso2217_: since it's implicitly anchored, it doesn't match
17:31 masak tadzik: what're you using a lazy grammar for?
17:32 tadzik masak: I'm not
17:34 miso2217_ rakudo: if 'aaaab ab' ~~ / :ratchet (<[ab]>*) \W+ $0 /  { say '3.1 match:', $/ } else { say '3.2 no match' }
17:34 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«3.1 match:ab ab␤»
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17:35 masak tadzik: oops, sorry. mis-tab.
17:35 masak takadonet: what're you using a lazy grammar for? FASTA?
17:35 miso2217_ moritz: ok I see, my mistake. So should the previous one match or not under ratchet?
17:36 moritz miso2217_: it should match, but not if it's part of another regex
17:37 moritz miso2217_: there's a fundamental asymmetry between calling a regex directly, and calling it from within another regex
17:38 moritz miso2217_: in the first case there's an always-backtracking .*? implied at the front
17:38 miso2217_ moritz: ah ok. So what about the one from the book?
17:38 miso2217_ rakudo: my regex word3 { :ratchet <[ab]>* }; my regex dup3 { :ratchet <word3=&word3> \W+ $<word3> }; if 'aaaab ab' ~~ m/<&dup3>/ { say '4.1 match:', $/; } else { say '4.2 no match'; }
17:39 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«4.1 match:ab ab␤»
17:41 moritz miso2217_: that's probably explained wrongly (or less than awesome) in the book
17:43 miso2217_ moritz: hmm... the book says it shouldn't match and it matches, this is clearly less than awesome :-)
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17:53 moritz agreed
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17:58 miso2217_ so this is a book issue, the Backtracking chapter requires a working example?
17:58 moritz yes
17:58 miso2217_ rakudo: my regex word { \w+ }; my regex dup { <word=&word> \W+ $<word> }; if 'strand and beach' ~~ m/<&dup>/ { say 'match ', $/; } else { say 'no match'; } # the book says: no match, doesn't match the 'and' in 'strand' without backtracking
17:58 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«match and and␤»
17:59 miso2217_ moritz: Ok, thx. for your time.
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18:00 moritz miso2217_: thank you for checking the book
18:02 pmurias what's the state of the book?
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18:02 miso2217_ pmurias: The best available doc on Perl 6, I would say.
18:03 moritz and LTA
18:05 * moritz has difficulties finding a real world example of a regex that needs backtracking, even if carefully crafted
18:07 molaf joined #perl6
18:07 pmurias is there a kindle edition for the book?
18:07 dalek book: 4507df3 | moritz++ | src/regexes.pod:
18:07 dalek book: [regex] add a note about a wrong example, found by miso2217_++
18:07 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/4507df3c77
18:07 moritz pmurias: we currently only have xhtml (though headers are missing) and pdf
18:08 miso2217_ pmurias: kindle reeds pdf
18:08 sorear good * #perl6
18:08 wolverian you don't really want to read pdf on a non-dx kindle. the screen is a bit too small.
18:08 pmurias sorear: hi
18:08 uniejo joined #perl6
18:09 * pmurias has a non-dx kindle
18:09 * moritz has a non-kindle
18:09 molaf left #perl6
18:09 miso2217_ pmurias: ah, a non dx won't be ok for A4/letter format
18:09 masak greetings sorear
18:10 moritz the build system of the book accepts arbitrary page dimensions
18:10 moritz I just don't know how the output will look like
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18:11 moritz ok, speaking of the book
18:11 moritz we wanted another chapter on statements (+ maybe expressions)
18:12 moritz what should go into that chapter?
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18:15 masak moritz: that's feels like a question without sufficient context.
18:15 masak why do we want another chapter on statements and maybe expressions?
18:15 masak what prompted the need?
18:15 moritz masak: I don't. You wanted, as well as others.
18:16 masak huh :)
18:16 * masak doesn't remember conversations from day to day anymore... :/
18:17 moritz masak: more like 'from year to year'
18:17 masak ah. I feel better now.
18:20 moritz what was #phasers called before?
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18:21 tadzik perl6sketch?
18:21 tadzik Not that I remember :)
18:21 _sri joined #perl6
18:21 moritz I can't find it in the logs, maybe we discussed it at YAPC::EU
18:21 tadzik aaand, remember about the book-ideas
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18:26 pmurias sorear: what sort of analysis would niecza's .net backend most benefit from?
18:27 sorear moritz: #rakudosketch was a used for a while
18:28 sorear IIRC
18:28 moritz sorear: thanks
18:28 _jaldhar left #perl6
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18:30 pmurias sorear: container elimination, type inference, checking if &take is used so we can drop CPS?
18:31 sorear CPS-dropping is unfeasable because it requires global analysis
18:32 phenny joined #perl6
18:33 sorear type inference belongs in the middle/front end, because 90% of its value is catching type errors at compile time
18:33 sorear so I guess that leaves container elimination
18:35 mj41 left #perl6
18:39 pmurias what are the things that make niecza slower than C#?
18:39 imamelia joined #perl6
18:40 imamelia Hey, I need a bit of help with the Perl Package Manager.
18:40 masak imamelia: just keep in mind that this is #perl6, not #perl5.
18:41 imamelia ...Okay.
18:41 TheMartianGeek left #perl6
18:41 imamelia is now known as TheMartianGeek
18:41 TheMartianGeek Well, I used it only once before, and I've forgotten how to add new modules.
18:41 pmurias sorear: other than containers, CPS and dynamic typing
18:41 TheMartianGeek (And apparently forgotten to change my nick...)
18:41 TheMartianGeek Oop, I"ll be back in a minute...
18:41 pmurias TheMartianGeek: why not ask on #perl?
18:52 sorear pmurias: boxing, generic calling conventions, ...
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19:05 pmurias sorear: what has the biggest impact?
19:08 masak left #perl6
19:08 sorear dunno
19:09 masak joined #perl6
19:10 masak Niecza has ruined my ability to spell 'Nietzsche'.
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19:46 tadzik :)
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19:54 dalek book: e0c859e | moritz++ | src/multi-dispatch.pod:
19:54 dalek book: [mmd] MAIN example
19:54 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/e0c859e73b
19:55 __rnddim__ is now known as lue
19:56 lue hello world! o/
19:56 tadzik hello lue
19:56 TheMartianGeek Hi.
19:56 sorear Hello lue.
19:58 proller joined #perl6
19:59 masak hellue!
20:00 tadzik masak: how are Pierogis?
20:00 masak they were all that I wished for, and more. :)
20:00 colomon where are there pierogis?
20:00 TheMartianGeek Well, I can't figure this out.
20:00 TheMartianGeek The more programming I do, the more I start to hate Windows...
20:00 masak colomon: in Kraków.
20:01 moritz TheMartianGeek: was the same for me
20:01 masak (for example)
20:01 colomon alas, that's a bit far for me to make it there for dinner.  :(
20:01 masak TheMartianGeek: the more programming I do, the less Windows seems to matter to me.
20:01 masak colomon: but rest assured that I would welcome you with open arms :)
20:02 colomon not if you knew how many pierogis I'd eat.  I love those things.  ;)
20:02 masak I bought mine.
20:03 masak I'd assume that if you ate a lot, you'd pay correspondingly :P
20:05 TheMartianGeek I suppose I couldn't just move Gtk2.pm and the files that go with it into C:\Perl64\site\lib...
20:05 pmurias masak: you are in Kraków?
20:05 masak pmurias: yes! where are you?
20:05 pmurias Wrocław
20:06 pmurias masak: what brought you to Kraków?
20:06 masak pmurias: a three-day course for $work.
20:07 masak pmurias: ah, Wrocław. that's what I thought.
20:07 * moritz hopes it tastes good
20:07 masak moritz: :P
20:21 sorear moritz: I'm looking at perl6/errors now; did you ever see STD.pm6 around line 5980, where 'Confused' is s|||'d into a bunch of different messages?
20:22 moritz sorear: no, thanks for pointing it out
20:24 sorear I think EX::Matcher can be written like when :message<Foo> & :subsystem<bar> { ... }
20:24 masak it's 'X::', no?
20:25 moritz let's not bikeshed about that :-)
20:25 silent_h_ left #perl6
20:25 moritz sorear: the matcher isn't the problem - it can either be a junction or a class with an overriden .ACCEPTS
20:26 masak no, I'm not willing to bikeshed on that. just seem to recall that it was, according to some Apocalypse or other.
20:26 moritz sorear: the big problem is really how to presen the category values
20:27 moritz sorear: for example if I represent the list of phasers as an enum, and soembody adds more phasers, can he augment that enum?
20:30 dalek errors: b3bf1e3 | moritz++ | error-list.txt:
20:30 dalek errors: missing erros messages from STD, sorear++ for pointing them out
20:30 dalek errors: review: https://github.com/perl6/errors/commit/b3bf1e385b
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20:35 moritz phenny: "vydayutsya"_
20:35 moritz phenny: "vydayutsya"?
20:35 phenny moritz: Language guessing failed, so try suggesting one!
20:35 moritz phenny: "vydayutsya" ru?
20:38 sorear phenny: ru:"vydayutsya"?
20:38 sorear phenny: "ru:vydayutsya"?
20:38 phenny sorear: "ru: vydayutsya" (ru to en, translate.google.com)
20:38 masak :)
20:39 takadonet1 joined #perl6
20:39 jnthn phenny: видаюця?
20:39 jnthn phenny: "видаюця"?
20:39 phenny jnthn: "vidayutsya" (ru to en, translate.google.com)
20:39 jnthn :)
20:39 dalek errors: 7862889 | moritz++ | error-list.txt:
20:40 dalek errors: [error-list.txt] add quotes to some error messages, more errors, error message modifiers
20:40 dalek errors: review: https://github.com/perl6/errors/commit/786288932c
20:40 jnthn phenny: "выдаюця"?
20:40 phenny jnthn: "vydayutsya" (ru to en, translate.google.com)
20:40 jnthn heh...
20:40 jnthn There's probably a few more permutations. The joy of translit... :)
20:41 sorear is it a proper name?
20:41 jnthn No idea :)
20:41 takadonet left #perl6
20:41 jnthn It's not a word I recognize.
20:41 MayDaniel joined #perl6
20:41 moritz sorear: somebody in #mojo used it like a verb
20:42 sorear phenny: "en:vydayutsya"?
20:42 phenny sorear: "and: vydayutsya" (nl to en, translate.google.com)
20:42 moritz sorear: but that doesn't mean it means anything :-)
20:42 masak if it's a verb, then it's a reflexive one.
20:42 sorear phenny: "en:ru:vydayutsya"?
20:42 phenny sorear: "en: ru: vydayutsya" (ru to en, translate.google.com)
20:43 sorear sbp: can phenny tanslatate waay from english?
20:43 MayDaniel left #perl6
20:48 TheMartianGeek joined #perl6
20:48 sbp phenny: en fr "tell sorear that yes, she can!"?
20:48 phenny sbp: "sorear dire que oui, elle peut!" (en to fr, translate.google.com)
20:49 xinming left #perl6
20:49 xinming joined #perl6
20:50 moritz (the result doesn't sound quite correct, but that's not phenny's fault)
20:50 moritz phenny: "sorear dire que oui, elle peut!"?
20:50 phenny moritz: "sorear say that yes it can!" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
20:50 moritz that's what I thought
20:51 masak phenny: "dit a sorear que oui, elle peut!"?
20:51 phenny masak: "sorear told that yes it can!" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
20:51 * masak fails French :P
20:51 masak phenny: "dis a sorear que oui, elle peut!"?
20:51 phenny masak: "sorear say that a yes, she can!" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
20:51 moritz it confuses object and subject
20:51 sorear also imperative and indicative
20:52 masak maybe indirect objects are tricky for it.
20:52 moritz indirect object syntax is tricky for me too
20:52 masak :)
20:52 moritz (both in p5 and p6, for that matter)
20:53 tadzik indirect object syntax in 6?
20:53 lue .oO(Je parles un peu français parce que j'ai un classe de français à l'école.)
20:53 lue er, s/parles/parle/
20:53 moritz std: new :Int
20:53 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
20:53 moritz same as Int.new
20:53 * moritz hates it
20:53 masak o.O
20:53 tadzik . o O ( moi capote ein buton, marchon )
20:53 tadzik or whatever, I know fonetics :)
20:53 sbp no, object and subject confuses it
20:53 tadzik oh wow
20:54 tadzik rakudo: say sqrt :5
20:54 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed radix number at line 22, near ""␤»
20:54 moritz wait
20:54 masak no-one said Rakudo implements it :)
20:54 moritz shouldn#t the invocant colon come after it?
20:54 masak btw, I doubt that the colon can really be there.
20:54 moritz std: new Int:
20:54 masak new Int:
20:54 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
20:54 masak yes.
20:54 moritz std: new
20:54 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 117m␤»
20:54 tadzik pffff
20:54 masak huh.
20:54 moritz std: foo
20:54 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'foo' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 117m␤»
20:54 masak stdbug?
20:54 moritz new is ok, foo not?
20:55 moritz std: foo 5:
20:55 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
20:55 moritz *that's* indirect object syntax
20:55 * moritz still hates it
20:55 masak :)
20:55 masak then don't use it.
20:55 sorear niecza: say chars 12:;
20:55 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Invocant handling is NYI at /tmp/q8GHI45Yz0 line 1:␤------> [32msay chars 12:[33m⏏[31m;[0m␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 388 (CORE die @ 2)␤  at
20:55 p6eval ../home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1141 (…
20:55 sorear aww.
20:55 tadzik aciidentally remove it from the spec :)
20:55 sorear I think it used to work...
20:56 masak moritz: it's partly for emulating the 'print STDOUT @stuff' thing.
20:56 masak moritz: that becomes 'print $*OUT: @stuff' in p6.
20:56 moritz masak: I know. I still hate it.
20:56 moritz tadzik: he, I could try to temporarily stop email notifications and dalek, and patch it out :-)
20:57 colomon left #perl6
20:57 sorear moritz: hide it in a branch marge, nobody reads those
20:57 imamelia joined #perl6
20:57 moritz sorear: :-)
20:57 tadzik :)
20:57 masak go for it.
20:57 moritz it seems nobody here is particularly attached to it, right?
20:57 TheMartianGeek left #perl6
20:57 imamelia is now known as TheMartianGeek
20:58 tadzik no worries, we will provide cover fire
20:58 tadzik quick! break rakudo!
20:58 masak I'm not attached to it. but I would perhaps reserve judgement until we have tried it out a little.
20:58 moritz well, let's wait for a veto from TimToady -- if that doesn't come, I'll happily remove it next week
20:58 masak hating something on paper is just as bad as liking something on paper :)
20:59 masak but I'm generally happy about parts of the spec that no-one cares for disappering. :)
20:59 moritz masak: I've seen TimToady use it as input to std here on #perl6
21:00 moritz masak: it always took me quite some time to parse it correctly myself
21:01 lue What is this indirect object syntax for, anyway?
21:01 masak lue: see my explanation above.
21:01 masak lue: it's at least partly for emulating p5 indirect object syntax.
21:01 masak and p5 indirect object syntax is generally not well-liked.
21:02 tadzik to be gentle
21:02 moritz in fact people have gone great length to remove all uses of it from the core docs, except in those spots where the syntax is explained
21:02 masak but p6 removes the reason for not liking it in p5, namely that things get hard to parse (by the parser).
21:03 lue was there ever a reason for it besides another WTDI?
21:03 moritz masak: it was never about the parser, always about humans
21:03 moritz masak: the parsing rules are well defined, even if a bit odd
21:04 masak no, even the parser gets flakey due to things like module load order.
21:04 masak see mst's post about it.
21:04 moritz foo bar $stuff  # parsed as  bar->foo($stuff) if bar is not predeclared as a function
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21:05 tadzik bleh
21:06 masak exactly.
21:06 tadzik heh, I remember this indirect method calls examlep
21:07 tadzik my pal fires up `perl` in the shell, of course nothing happens, so he writes `perl` once again, then `prel` once again
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21:07 tadzik after my "press ^D" we see "method prel not found for invocant of class perl"
21:07 tadzik or some other way around
21:07 masak :(
21:07 masak we could really use a good REPL there instead of... nothing.
21:08 tadzik I actually fired -MO=Deparse to see wtf
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21:09 moritz I don't like the case    foo (some lengthy expression):
21:09 moritz where the : in the end changes the meaning of the leading foo
21:10 tadzik yeah, disturbing
21:11 masak there's a similar garden-path problem in the Chinese language.
21:11 masak a single 的 somewhere halfway down a sentence can change the whole reading of the sentence so far.
21:12 masak it's especially clear when you're doing real-time translation while reading text.
21:12 TiMBuS joined #perl6
21:12 masak I hope I didn't just give TimToady a linguistic reason to keep the feature :P
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21:19 masak 'night, #perl6
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21:19 lue goodnight masak o/
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21:52 lue moritz: in error-list.txt (in the errors repo), did you mean obsolete on line 30 (instead of obsolescent)?
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22:05 miso2217_ phenny: выдаются
22:05 miso2217_ phenny: "выдаются"?
22:05 phenny miso2217_: "issued" (ru to en, translate.google.com)
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22:07 miso2217_ moritz: I think you were trying to translate this russian word: "выдаются"
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23:32 miso2217_ rakudo: if "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18" ~~ m/^^ [.*? ','] ** 14 P / { say "\t match"; } else { say "\t no match"; }
23:32 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
23:32 miso2217_ rakudo: if "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18" ~~ m/:ratchet ^^ [.*? ','] ** 14 P / { say "\t match"; } else { say "\t no match"; }
23:32 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«   no match␤»
23:33 sorear What's "P" for?
23:34 miso2217_ moritz: An idea for the Backtracking paragraph of the book, (taken from: http://www.regular-expressions.info/catastrophic.html)
23:35 miso2217_ sorear: it's only to demonstrate the Backtracking in the book, the current example is bad.
23:35 miso2217_ moritz: if "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18" ~~ m/^^ [.*? ','] ** 14 P / { say "\t match"; } else { say "\t no match"; }
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23:36 miso2217_ moritz: if "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18" ~~ m/:ratchet ^^ [.*? ','] ** 14 P / { say "\t match"; } else { say "\t no match"; }
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23:44 sorear niecza: my $i; "aaaaaaaaa" ~~ / [a || a]* { $i++ } <!>/; say "Tried to match $i ways@
23:44 sorear niecza: my $i; "aaaaaaaaa" ~~ / [a || a]* { $i++ } <!>/; say "Tried to match $i ways"
23:44 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Any()Unable to parse double quotes at /tmp/xJZmcqFZzU line 1:␤------> [32maaa" ~~ / [a || a]* { $i++ } <!>/; say "[33m⏏[31mTried to match $i ways@[0m␤Couldn't find final '"'; gave up at /tmp/xJZmcqFZzU line 1 (EOF):␤------> [32mi++
23:44 p6eval ..} <!>/; say "…
23:44 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«Tried to match 2036 ways␤»
23:44 sorear niecza: my $i; "aaaaaaaaaaaa" ~~ / [a || a]* { $i++ } <!>/; say "Tried to match $i ways"
23:44 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«Tried to match 16369 ways␤»
23:44 sorear niecza: my $i; "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" ~~ / [a || a]* { $i++ } <!>/; say "Tried to match $i ways"
23:44 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«Tried to match 524268 ways␤»
23:45 sorear niecza: my $i; "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" ~~ / [a || a]* { $i++ } <!>/; say "Tried to match $i ways"
23:45 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
23:45 sorear niecza: my $i; "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" ~~ / [a || a]* { $i++ } <!>/; say "Tried to match $i ways"
23:45 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
23:45 sorear niecza: my $i; "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" ~~ / [a || a]* { $i++ } <!>/; say "Tried to match $i ways"
23:45 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«Tried to match 2097130 ways␤»
23:45 sorear miso2217_: perhaps useful
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