Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-04-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:02 donri And then there's markdown which has prepostcircumfix ;)
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04:42 JimmyZ jnthn: ping
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05:02 tadzik good very morning, #perl6
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05:34 woosley perl6: class x{}; class y{also is x;};
05:34 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&also"␤    at /tmp/ok8fegY3RV line 1, column 20-29␤»
05:34 p6eval ..niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd:  ( no output )
05:34 p6eval ..rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &is␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/oogf40LmtI␤»
05:35 woosley perl6: role x{}; class y{also dose x;};
05:36 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Undeclared routines:␤     'also' used at line Any()1␤     'dose' used at line Any()1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 388 (CORE die @ 2)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line
05:36 p6eval ..1141 (STD P6.comp_unit @…
05:36 p6eval ..rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &dose␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/BtxoYNZGdH␤»
05:36 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&also"␤    at /tmp/nPqTpuLsKg line 1, column 19-30␤»
05:36 woosley perl6: role x{}; class y{also does x;}
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05:36 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &also␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/IY8Y7HU_4v␤»
05:36 p6eval ..niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Action method trait_mod:does not yet implemented at /tmp/pvakZXHDeW line 1:␤------> [32mrole x{}; class y{also does x[33m⏏[31m;}[0m␤␤Unhandled exception: Cannot use hash access on an object of type Str␤  at
05:36 p6eval ../home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setti…
05:36 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&also"␤    at /tmp/pj1sUiuDNh line 1, column 19-30␤»
05:37 TimToady niecza is the closest to having it
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05:37 woosley std: role x{}; class y{also dose x;}
05:37 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Undeclared routines:␤        'also' used at line 1␤  'dose' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
05:38 TimToady std: role x{}; class y{also does x;}
05:38 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
05:38 woosley oops
05:39 woosley rakudo and pugs have no "also" implement
05:39 TimToady rakudo: class x {}; class y { is x; }  # old syntax
05:39 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &is␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/1j2etVXOUf␤»
05:39 TimToady I guess it didn't do that that either
05:40 TimToady it's LTA that also backtracks out to sub parsing
05:41 TimToady it should commit to finding a declaration
05:41 TimToady s/declaration/trait/
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05:45 woosley TimToady: is it worth a bug submit?
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05:52 TimToady well, I'll fix STD, but I don't know if there's a rakudobug yet
05:53 dalek std: 2815c4d | larry++ | STD.pm6:
05:53 dalek std: require 'also' to be followed by a trait
05:53 dalek std: review: https://github.com/perl6/std/commit/2815c4de4b
05:53 TimToady woosley++
05:54 woosley rakudo: role X{}; class Y{ does X};
05:54 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
05:55 woosley well, 'does' works for role
05:56 TimToady the problem with the old syntax is that 'is' interfered with Test's is function
05:56 TimToady that's why we relegated traits to 'also'
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06:45 moritz good morning
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07:53 woosley hello,  what is equivalent in perl6 for ' my @a = ("x", ("A")  x 5)'  in perl5?
07:54 moritz rakudo: say ('x', 'A' xx 5).perl
07:54 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«("x", ("A", "A", "A", "A", "A"))␤»
07:54 moritz rakudo: my @a = 'x', 'A' xx 5; say @a.perl
07:55 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«["x", "A", "A", "A", "A", "A"]␤»
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07:55 moritz the inner () flattens out on assignment
07:56 woosley moritz: thanks
07:56 moritz x really serves two purposes in perl 5: string repetition and list repetition - in perl 6 those are separate operators
07:57 woosley moritz: did you notice the 'also does' problem in the class definition?  looks like it is not implemented in rakudo
07:59 moritz that's correct
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08:07 masak lol hi zebras
08:08 moritz lol it's masak!!!!!
08:09 masak this course is odd. :)
08:10 masak we're all sitting in the audience thinking "I could totally write a framework for this"
08:10 moritz :-)
08:10 moritz except that there are frameworks for this already, right?
08:10 masak all the while the speaker is bashing frameworks, saying they're often not worth the complexity :)
08:10 masak this is a technique that refreshingly doesn't *need* a framework.
08:11 masak it just makes very good use of OO principles, and pulls things off with relatively little code.
08:11 moritz sounds like something I should learn eventually.
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08:12 masak maybe I should hold a post-course evening course, with a slant to Perl 6.
08:14 masak all of which is described is possible in Perl 6 as well, except perhaps a bit of compile-time type checking of parametric roles.
08:15 mathw sounds interesting
08:15 mathw do you have a leaflet or small booklet I could read?
08:15 masak hold on, I'll get something.
08:16 woosley perl6:  foo(); my @p = 1,2,3; sub foo(){say @p.elems};
08:16 mathw \o/
08:16 p6eval pugs, rakudo 4bf132, niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«0␤»
08:16 woosley LoL, why it is 0
08:17 mathw I assume because foo() runs before @p is assigned
08:17 masak woosley: because the call is before the assignment.
08:17 masak mathw: http://cqrsinfo.com/documents/cqrs-introduction/
08:18 masak mathw: let me know if that explanation is too dry and boring. I assure you that the actual material on the course isn't.
08:19 masak woosley: there are two aspects here. @p is in scope in foo because the compiler sees @p first and then foo. but @p doesn't have any values yet when foo() is run, because foo() is before the assignment.
08:20 masak woosley: you'll find the same thing happening in most other languages: Ruby, Python, Java, C...
08:21 mathw masak: It's not very well-written
08:21 woosley masak:  I thought it would be the elements number, apparently I am wrong, also in perl5...
08:21 mathw masak: but I sense the underlying idea might be interesting
08:21 mathw woosley: it is the elements number - at the time you call foo, there isn't anything in @p
08:21 moritz rakudo: my @p = 1, 2, 3; say @p.elems
08:21 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«3␤»
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08:22 mathw rakudo: say foo(); my @p = 1, 2, 3; sub foo() { @p.elems; }; say foo();
08:22 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«0␤3␤»
08:23 masak mathw: it's because there is not yet excellent web material for this that I'm on this course :)
08:23 woosley yep, I got it, bad expression^^
08:23 masak mathw: but as I said, I'll be happy to pass on this knowledge. that'll help me grok it better, too.
08:24 mathw masak: great :)
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08:32 moritz what I don't understand in that page:
08:33 moritz void CreateCustomer(Customer)
08:33 moritz it seems I can retrieve customers by ID
08:33 moritz but how can I retrieve the new customer when I don't know its ID yet?
08:33 masak good question.
08:34 moritz a LastNewCustomer() getter would help, but that's SO ugly
08:34 moritz global state et. al.
08:34 masak here, I created a doodle, so that people interested in learning about CQRS can say when they would like it to happen: http://www.doodle.com/g6vsp3h3rs5cnk2v
08:36 masak moritz: I read CreateCustomer(Customer) as being a copy constructor.
08:37 moritz masak: so the copy has the same ID as the old one?
08:37 moritz if not, the question still applies
08:37 jaffa4 joined #perl6
08:37 moritz and the question in the general case still remains for an ordinary constructor
08:38 masak you get a new Customer, but it has a new ID, I presume.
08:38 jaffa4 hi
08:38 masak hi, jaffa4
08:38 jaffa4 I have got regular expression converter
08:38 jaffa4 Could someone test it/
08:38 jaffa4 and give me feedback
08:38 masak jaffa4: url?
08:39 moritz what does it translate to what?
08:39 jaffa4 you already saw it
08:39 masak jaffa4: yes, I know. but I don't remember the url :)
08:39 jaffa4 I just got some feedback it does not work properly at times
08:39 masak it translates p5 regexes to p6 regexes.
08:39 jaffa4 http://www.equinoxbase.com/p5p6regconv/converter.html
08:40 masak it's an intriguing idea. I would do something like that with GGE, though.
08:40 masak because then it's AST-based.
08:40 jaffa4 what gge?
08:40 masak jaffa4: I'm guessing your solution is string-based.
08:40 jaffa4 yes
08:41 jaffa4 if that makes any difference
08:41 masak jaffa4: GGE is a regex/grammar engine.
08:41 masak jaffa4: it currently only understands Perl 6 regexes, but it can easily be extended to understand Perl 5 regexes, too.
08:41 moritz seems to handle the basics pretty well
08:42 masak so it could parse a Perl 5 regex, and then from the AST emit a Perl 6 regex.
08:42 moritz of course it doesn't translate quantified captures correctly, because 5 and 6 do it so differently
08:42 masak that's one thing that would be simpler with GGE.
08:42 jaffa4 it should
08:42 jaffa4 WHat does not?
08:42 jaffa4 WHat is it/
08:43 jaffa4 ?
08:43 moritz (.)+  in perl 5 only captures the last match
08:43 moritz in perl 6 it captures all
08:43 masak oh.
08:43 masak that's not what I was thinking about.
08:43 moritz there's no straight-forward way to convert those
08:43 masak I was thinking about getting capture numbering right.
08:43 jaffa4 rakudo: say 3*3
08:43 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«9␤»
08:43 moritz it makes a difference in cases like (\w)+\1
08:43 masak but I guess that's more of a runtime thing.
08:44 moritz in p5 that's the same as \w*(\w)\1
08:44 moritz whereas the correct perl 6 translation would be more like (\w+)$0
08:45 moritz masak: aye, capture numbering is tricky, because it's perl-scope in perl 6 and global in perl 5
08:48 masak moritz: I don't think that's the correct Perl 6 translation.
08:48 masak that captures all but the last match.
08:49 moritz rakudo: say 'aaaa' ~~ /(\w)+$0/; say $0
08:49 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«aaaa␤a a a␤»
08:50 moritz huh. Is that correct?
08:50 masak don't think so.
08:51 * moritz facepalms
08:51 moritz $0 is an array
08:51 moritz what happens when you interpolate an array into a regex?
08:51 moritz you get an alternation, no?
08:52 * moritz presents the case to the Regex High Court of TimToady, pmichaud and sorear
08:52 moritz is that another "doctor, it hurts when I do this"? :-)
08:52 masak no.
08:52 masak this is bad.
08:53 masak you're clearly not intending $0 as an array, but as a submatch string.
08:54 moritz rakudo: say 'abcd' ~~ /(.)+$0/; say $)
08:54 moritz rakudo: say 'abcd' ~~ /(.)+$0/; say $0
08:54 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Contextual $*GOAL not found␤»
08:54 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«␤␤»
08:54 moritz rakudo: say 'abca' ~~ /(.)+$0/; say $0
08:54 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«␤␤»
08:54 moritz rakudo: say 'abcc' ~~ /(.)+$0/; say $0
08:54 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«abcc␤a b c␤»
08:55 moritz ok that's not what it does
08:55 moritz it just takes the last item
08:55 masak I'm too tied up to report a rakudobug.
08:55 moritz niecza: say 'abcc' ~~ /(.)+$0/; say $0
08:55 masak please someone else do it.
08:55 jaffa4 rakudo: 3*3
08:55 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«c␤c␤»
08:55 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
08:55 jaffa4 rakudo: say 3*3
08:55 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«9␤»
08:55 moritz niecza: say 'abca' ~~ /(.)+$0/; say $0
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08:55 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«␤Any()␤»
08:56 moritz niecza: say 'aaaa' ~~ /(.)+$0/; say $0
08:56 jaffa4 joined #perl6
08:56 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«a␤a␤»
08:56 moritz masak: will do
08:58 masak ++moritz
08:59 masak moritz: ooh, you've lost your underscore! :)
08:59 moritz masak: yes, I didn't sounds that breathless pronounciation at the end of my name :-)
08:59 moritz actually I convinced a freenode staffer to drop the previous 'moritz' account, which was unused for quite some time
09:00 moritz aloha: karma moritz_
09:00 aloha moritz: moritz_ has karma of 227.
09:00 moritz aloha: karma moritz
09:00 aloha moritz: moritz has karma of 531.
09:00 flussence_ hey, who stuck this thing on me? D:
09:00 flussence_ is now known as flussence
09:02 tadzik hello zebrae
09:02 jaffa4 aloha: karma diakopter
09:02 aloha jaffa4: diakopter has karma of 261.
09:02 tadzik aloha: karma tadzik
09:02 aloha tadzik: tadzik has karma of 188.
09:02 jaffa4 aloha: karma dalek
09:02 aloha jaffa4: dalek has karma of 2.
09:03 tadzik whoa, that's a plenty of karma
09:03 jaffa4 aloha: karma dalek TimToady
09:03 aloha jaffa4: dalek TimToady has karma of 0.
09:03 jaffa4 aloha: karma TimToady
09:03 tadzik when can I buy a toaster for it?
09:03 aloha jaffa4: TimToady has karma of 100.
09:03 flussence aloha: karma C
09:03 aloha flussence: C has karma of 396.
09:03 masak tadzik: hi, little panda.
09:03 JimmyZ karma aloha
09:03 aloha aloha has karma of -46.
09:03 tadzik aloha++
09:03 aloha tadzik: Thanks!
09:03 tadzik botsnack!
09:06 masak already two participants for http://www.doodle.com/g6vsp3h3rs5cnk2v -- exciting!
09:07 masak people, feel free to sign up for this free, very exciting little CQRS course.
09:07 masak wherein I share knowledge that my employer paid quite a bit of money for me to learn.
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09:08 * moritz hopes he'll get an answer to his constructor question during the mini course :-)
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09:10 Rotwang 4 hours?
09:11 moritz 2, if I understood correctly
09:11 masak correct, 2.
09:11 masak not because there isn't more to talk about, but because that's the scope I'm imagining.
09:12 masak I plan to lean heavily on runnable/running Perl 6 code.
09:12 Rotwang I see
09:13 moritz masak: my participation always depends on not too much interruptions by Ronja, so take my signup with a grain of salt
09:13 moritz s/much/many/
09:14 masak certainly.
09:14 masak if nothing else, you can lurk and read the logs afterwards.
09:14 moritz right
09:14 moritz and I surely will
09:14 moritz just remind me to set up the logs in time :-)
09:14 Axius left #perl6
09:15 Rotwang who's ronja?
09:15 masak I'm assuming I won't have to register #cqrs-perl6 for this small a thing.
09:15 moritz Rotwang: my daughter
09:16 Rotwang ah, ok
09:16 moritz masak: not at all. If you want I can send _ilbot in, or I can just hang out and copy&paste my irssi logs later
09:17 masak any option is fine by me.
09:19 masak I'd consider having the logs saved afterwards as a nice bonus, but not essential.
09:19 moritz I'll send the bot in.
09:20 masak that sounds like a line from a Hollywood movie :)
09:20 moritz :-)
09:20 Rotwang oha noez, skynet
09:24 _ilbot joined #perl6
09:24 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
09:26 moritz select channel, max(day) from irclog where nick <> '' group by channel;
09:26 moritz turns out I was still logging #perl6-gsoc, which was last active in 2009 :-)
09:27 masak heh :)
09:27 masak happy to help :)
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09:37 masak rakudo: role Disparaging[::T] { method disparage(T $o) { say "hah! I disparage this {$o.WHAT.perl}!" } }; class Framework {}; class FrameworkDisparager does Disparaging[Framework] {}; FrameWorkDisparager.new.disparage(Framework.new)
09:37 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &FrameWorkDisparager␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/P53WO4P4go␤»
09:37 awoodland left #perl6
09:37 masak rakudo: role Disparaging[::T] { method disparage(T $o) { say "hah! I disparage this {$o.WHAT.perl}!" } }; class Framework {}; class FrameworkDisparager does Disparaging[Framework] {}; FrameworkDisparager.new.disparage(Framework.new)
09:37 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«hah! I disparage this Framework!␤»
09:37 masak :)
09:39 moritz rakudo: role Disparaging[::T] { method disparage(T $o) { say "hah! I disparage this {$o.WHAT.perl}!" } }; Disparaging[ class Framework { }].new
09:39 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
09:39 moritz rakudo: role Disparaging[::T] { method disparage(T $o) { say "hah! I disparage this {$o.WHAT.perl}!" } }; Disparaging[ class Framework { }].new.disparage
09:39 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤  in 'disparage' at line 22:/tmp/0M6Kmk7DIj␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/0M6Kmk7DIj␤»
09:39 masak it still needs to disparage a Framework object.
09:40 moritz rakudo: role Disparaging[::T] { method disparage(T $o) { say "hah! I disparage this {$o.WHAT.perl}!" } }; class Framework { }; Disparaging[Framework].new.disparage
09:40 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤  in 'disparage' at line 22:/tmp/nvS1tQmTAw␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/nvS1tQmTAw␤»
09:40 moritz rakudo: role Disparaging[::T] { method disparage(T $o = T.new) { say "hah! I disparage this {$o.WHAT.perl}!" } }; class Framework { }; Disparaging[Framework].new.disparage
09:40 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«hah! I disparage this Framework!␤»
09:40 moritz rakudo: role Disparaging[::T] { method disparage(T $o = T.new) { say "hah! I disparage this {$o.WHAT.perl}!" } }; Disparaging[ class Framework { }].new.disparage
09:40 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 1 passed, 2 (or more) expected␤  in 'disparage' at line 1␤  in 'disparage' at line 22:/tmp/FuU12LpbbZ␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/FuU12LpbbZ␤»
09:41 masak that's odd.
09:41 moritz that's the old "class declaration returns weird stuff" bug
09:41 moritz rakudo: my $x = class A { }; say $x.WHAT
09:41 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Code()␤»
09:42 masak so it works if you don't do the declaration of Framework inside the [] ?
09:42 moritz correct
09:42 masak good.
09:42 moritz rakudo: role Disparaging[::T] { method disparage(T $o = T.new) { say "hah! I disparage this {$o.WHAT.perl}!" } }; Disparaging[ do { class Framework { }; Framework } ].new.disparage
09:42 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«hah! I disparage this Framework!␤»
09:42 moritz workaround
09:43 moritz rakudo: role Disparaging[::T] { method disparage(T $o = T.new) { say "hah! I disparage this {$o.WHAT.perl}!" } }; Disparaging[ anon class Framework { }].new.disparage
09:43 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«hah! I disparage this Framework!␤»
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09:43 moritz another workaround
09:43 masak I'm afraid http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=84492 is going to be a bit of a barrier when giving the mini-course.
09:44 masak some of the patterns involved like to pull in multi methods from roles.
09:44 moritz :/
09:46 masak oh well. I can probably get quite close to how the code would look if Rakudo weren't broken in that particular area.
09:51 masak a guy here has, as a desktop image on his laptop, a fair semi-clad lady in a provocative pose. I'm struck by the different norms that exist in different countries. in Sweden, you could get a reprimand for that.
09:52 masak from my experience, I suspect Sweden is the outlier here, at least in Europe.
09:52 moritz could you? I thought Sweden was fairly liberal...
09:53 masak we are. but gender roles are touchy.
09:53 moritz "we are. Except when we are not." :-)
09:53 masak at least at the layers of society where I move.
09:53 masak YMMV.
09:53 arnsholt There are two parts of it, I think (from my Norwegian perspective)
09:54 masak liberalism does not mean that people freely accept discrimination.
09:54 moritz I wouldn't display such a picture in a professional setting
09:54 arnsholt One is the whole gender-equality thing, which is important in Scandinavia
09:54 mathw It would be frowned upon here
09:54 mathw Definitely considered inappropriate for a professional environment
09:54 arnsholt Another is, I suspect, a remnant of the puritan Protestant ethic
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09:54 arnsholt Similar to our alcohol laws
09:55 moritz masak: without seeing the image it's hard to draw a line between discrimination and displaying beauty
09:55 moritz probably depends on how provocative the pose is
09:57 masak moritz: yes. and it's also a subjective thing.
09:57 masak mostly, I too am surprised too see such an image in a professional setting.
09:57 masak the speaker has gone past it a few times and made jokes about it.
09:58 moritz that isn't very professional either
09:58 moritz (except when the jokes are thinly veiled reprimands for being so unprofessional)
09:58 mathw I do tend to stop and think about my desktop background when I take my laptop anywhere
09:59 masak it's things like "I don't understand how this guy gets any actual work done with that desktop background."
09:59 arnsholt I have to admit I usually don't, but that's probably because I only see it every other week or so ^_^
10:00 mathw heh yes
10:00 mathw I only see the one at work when I lock the screen
10:00 mathw my one at home only really gets seen when I have to reboot to install updates
10:00 masak ...and of course, there's 30 guys in the room, and no gals.
10:00 masak the only women around are hotel employees.
10:00 moritz masak: now we could start talking about cause and effect
10:01 moritz regarding desktop backgrounds: I get used to them, and tend to ignore them from then on
10:01 moritz so there's not much point in having one really
10:01 moritz I kept the one I have now out of laziness
10:02 mathw this is why I don't understand people complaining about no desktop icons in GNOME 3
10:02 mathw I never *see* my desktop
10:02 mathw so why would I want to put things on it that I then need to shuffle windows around to find?
10:03 moritz masak: I do, but only because I have 9 virtual desktops :-)
10:03 mathw the desktop is just a load of space to put windows on
10:03 masak my desktop backgroun is a solid blue. I have no icons on it. :)
10:03 masak s/backgroun/background/
10:04 arnsholt I use a tiling window manager. My destop is black
10:04 arnsholt I think =D
10:04 arnsholt *desktop
10:04 moritz my wife would kill me if I did :-)
10:04 moritz she sometimes reuses my session for browsing
10:05 arnsholt Hehe, I can see how that would lead to marital issues
10:05 mathw I'm single :)
10:05 mathw ish
10:05 mathw and my possibly-boyfriend (or whatever is appropriate to call him) has his own laptop, as is only proper
10:06 arnsholt My gf is still working on befriending OS X when borrowing my laptop (but I've already decided her next laptop should be a Mac =)
10:06 moritz now about using vimperator... :-)
10:08 mathw Yeah mine's fairly safe from my family when they visit because they see a GNOME desktop and think 'wtf?'
10:09 mathw I suppose I should use Xmonad if I really want to confuse them, but that confuses me as well
10:12 arnsholt I use Xmonad. I find it quite nice
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10:12 arnsholt The only speedbump is my lack of fluency with Haskell which makes changing the configuration a bit of an adventure at times =)
10:12 mathw I know Haskell, that was the easy bit
10:12 mathw I just couldn't get used to a tiling window manager
10:13 mathw I realised that a decent overlapping window manager was good enough for me
10:13 mathw Although right now I'm scowling at Windows XP for being so fearfully primitive
10:13 arnsholt Ah, right. I usually run all my application fullscreen anyways, so it was a pretty painless transition
10:13 mathw ah I almost never do that
10:13 arnsholt Occasionally while programming I'd fiddle to sort of half-and-half my screen with code and docs, or code and app or something
10:14 arnsholt That last bit turned out to be trivial with a tiling WM, which pretty much sold me on the whole thing
10:14 mathw yeah it should be
10:15 mathw I think I could learn to use one if I really put the time in
10:15 mathw But I didn't start with it until I'd been using Compiz with extensive use of the Scale plugin for years, and I just got so used to that workflow
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10:16 bbkr_ Is every module in ecosystem included in Star release? I'm planning to polish JSON::RPC (include latest Socket::INET changes, and use modifed LWP::Simple as transport layer) so it can be added to ecosystem.
10:17 moritz bbkr_: no
10:17 moritz bbkr_: star has a separate list of modules
10:18 bbkr_ moritz: thanks. BTW: i will fork your LWP and add sending content in request, so various *RPC modules can be implemented.
10:19 moritz bbkr_: not my LWP, it's cosimo's :-)
10:19 MayDaniel left #perl6
10:19 moritz bbkr_: I'm sure he'll accept pull requests (or even hands out commit bits)
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10:34 colomon backgrounds: default OS X 10.5 starry background on my MBP.  Picture of me, my dad, and my father-in-law with a stringer of freshly caught walleye on my Windows machine.  :)
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10:37 mathw colomon: nice. I've got the OpenSUSE 11.4 wallpaper on my home laptop, a picture of the church at Clumber Park on my home Windows box, and at work I've just changed it to a new picture of my cat :)
10:38 colomon my phone's wallpaper is a picture of my son (age 2 at the time) pretending to play one of our accordions.  ;)
10:39 mathw yay accordions!
10:40 mathw accordion is quite high on my list of instruments I'd like to learn
10:41 mathw viciously fighting for its place with harp
10:41 colomon me too -- high enough I actually work at it a bit here and there.
10:41 mathw On the other hand, I'm already doing singing, recorder, viola de gamba, ukulele and bodhran, so one does think that perhaps one should not take on anything else
10:42 colomon http://www.harmonyware.com/pictures/henry_and_the_hohner.jpg
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10:43 mathw :D
10:43 mathw other instruments I'd really like to learn: uilleann pipes, hurdy gurdy, baroque flute, lute, theorbo, marimba
10:44 arnsholt There. My appendix on the derivation of the maximum likelihood estimators for HMMs should now be even more readable =D
10:45 colomon ah, I'm working on simple-system flute as well.  Though Henry managed to put three good-sized cracks in my wooden flute last week, which is going to slow me down a bit.
10:45 miso2217 hello all, are the <?after and <?before lookaround constructs supported by rakudo?
10:47 mathw colomon: that's a shame :(
10:47 flussence <?after isn't IIRC
10:49 Juerd Let's hope nobody makes a <?php
10:50 miso2217 flussence: how should it be then writtent?
10:52 flussence not sure, I came across it when I was porting some perl5 code.
10:54 jaffa4 what is Command-Query Responsibility Segregation?
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11:19 TiMBuS whats the correct way to listify an array when passing it to a for loop
11:19 TiMBuS .list i guess?
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11:20 masak TiMBuS: or @()
11:20 TiMBuS thats a better idea. 'feels' more right
11:20 masak TiMBuS: the general rule is that unless it has a @ sigil or .list or .[] or some other thing to explicitly mark it as a listy thing, it's an item.
11:21 masak oh, and "hurdy gurdy" is the ultimate name for an instrument.
11:22 TiMBuS its probably swedish
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11:23 masak :P
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11:39 jaffa4 rakudo: say "hello"
11:39 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«hello␤»
11:39 jaffa4 rakudo: say "hello\n\n\"
11:39 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say \"hello"␤»
11:39 jaffa4 rakudo: say "hello\n\n"
11:40 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«hello␤␤␤»
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12:01 takadonet morning all
12:01 sbp hey
12:01 moritz hi sbp
12:02 sbp greets
12:03 masak hi takadonet, sbp
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12:29 nicola is now known as nicola_g
12:29 nicola_g hi
12:29 nicola_g is now known as nicola
12:29 nicola ni
12:29 moritz hello
12:29 nicola anybody here?
12:30 moritz nope, just robots
12:30 nicola i need some guidance
12:30 nicola oops
12:30 moritz don't take me serious :-)
12:30 nicola oh ok
12:30 nicola so who is Britney Spears?
12:32 nicola is now known as nicola_g
12:32 nicola_g uhm, good morning
12:32 nicola_g a lot of people here, huh
12:33 takadonet nicola_g: always lots of ppl here, most are just quietly hacking away...
12:33 nicola_g oh i c
12:33 nicola_g you may guide me a little bit about perl6?
12:34 nicola_g uhm, i'm using perl5/apache
12:34 * takadonet points to masak and mortiz
12:34 nicola_g but i heard that it's possible to do something like "user v6;" to code in perl6?
12:35 masak nicola_g: well, yes and no.
12:35 nicola_g how is yes, n how is no?
12:35 moritz nicola_g: perl 5+6 integration is unstable at its best
12:35 moritz and mostly not done yet at all
12:35 masak nicola_g: if you're using Perl 5 and Apache, you probably should keep using Perl 5 and Apache. :)
12:35 masak nicola_g: but we're very glad you came here, and we might help you in various other ways :)
12:36 nicola_g oh, ok, so should i wait for an official release of perl6?
12:36 moritz and experiment with Perl 6 in separate scripts
12:36 moritz nicola_g: no, forget "official releases". What counts if the software does what you want
12:36 masak nicola_g: there have been official releases of Perl 6.
12:36 moritz nginx had its 1.0 release today, but nearly half of the top russian sites were already using it
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12:37 nicola_g uhm, where do download that release? is it stable?
12:37 masak nicola_g: problem is, everybody has a different subjective definition of "official". so it doesn't really matter.
12:37 masak stable for some things, not for others.
12:37 masak you can download it from perl6.org
12:37 nicola_g i mean "officially" released by activestate or someone famous
12:37 moritz it's stable in the sense that if you don't update, your code will continue to work in future :-)
12:37 masak Rakudo star is officially released by the team developing Perl 6 on Parrot.
12:38 moritz nicola_g: https://github.com/rakudo/star/downloads/
12:38 masak Niecza is officially released by Stefan O'Rear, a moderately famous entity.
12:38 nicola_g thks for the link
12:38 masak Yapsi is released by the international underground conspiracy.
12:38 masak of zebras.
12:39 nicola_g but i'm building my project on perl5 n afraid of having to recode this bunch of work in future
12:39 moritz nobody will force you to redo any code in Perl 6
12:39 masak nicola_g: there once was a project called Ponie.
12:39 masak nicola_g: have you heard about it?
12:39 nicola_g yeah but perl6 seems clearer in OOP
12:39 moritz there's no implicit upgrade path from 5 to 6
12:39 masak nicola_g: you should definitely check out Moose.
12:40 moritz nicola_g: right. But that doesn't mean it makes sense to rewrite a big codebase
12:40 nicola_g yeah
12:40 [Coke] I would continue to use perl5 for anything bigger than a breadbasket.
12:40 nicola_g but is the version from perl6.org integrateable to apache?
12:40 [Coke] (for the next short while)
12:40 masak nicola_g: it's been known to integrate with Apache, yes.
12:40 masak nicola_g: I would be lying if I said it was trivial.
12:40 nicola_g oh great
12:40 [Coke] Not at this time. there used to be a "mod_parrot" which made "mod_perl6" work, but it's bitrotted.
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12:41 moritz [Coke]: there are CGI scripts :-)
12:41 [Coke] masak: is my intel old?
12:41 [Coke] (I miss mod_parrot. :(
12:41 masak with November, we just hardwired things into Apache.
12:42 [Coke] hee! I misread that as "handwaved"
12:42 nicola_g any link guiding the integration of perl6 (from perl6.org) to apache?
12:42 masak [Coke]: I think we had mod_parrot or mod_perl6 working at some point, but never on the production server.
12:42 masak nicola_g: no, unfortunately not. the process was never really documented.
12:43 * moritz finds it great that people perceive perl6.org as authorotative in some way
12:43 masak nicola_g: but it's essentially a matter of writing your Apache config files right so that it finds an executable script somewhere that starts Rakudo with the right Perl 6 script.
12:43 nicola_g oops, so i better wait for activestate's stable release huh
12:43 masak nicola_g: yes, but you'll miss a lot of great things if you wait :)
12:44 nicola_g i c, i c, like an apache module to execute a certain file extension
12:44 masak nicola_g: I would recommend downloading Rakudo Perl 6 and playing with it in your spare time.
12:44 masak nicola_g: it will prepare you for the great things to come.
12:45 nicola_g yeah, im trying to get familiar with the new syntax
12:45 tadzik more importantly, it's fun
12:45 moritz rakudo: say [+] 1..4
12:45 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«10␤»
12:45 moritz rakudo: say [*] 1..4
12:45 masak nicola_g: look at this:
12:45 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«24␤»
12:45 masak rakudo: say [+] 1, 2, 3, 4
12:45 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«10␤»
12:46 masak moritz: oh, that's scary.
12:46 masak moritz: I typed that example without seeing yours. :P
12:46 moritz :-)
12:46 masak (webchat.freenode.net has "interesting" scrolling behaviour)
12:47 moritz masak: must be the ^m connection :-)
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12:47 nicola_g perl5 vs perl6 is like c vs c++
12:47 masak moritz: it's happening. we're slowly merging into one single Perl 6 brain. :P
12:48 masak nicola_g: some people say that. I think it's more like C vs something cool :P
12:48 moritz nicola_g: not at all
12:48 moritz nicola_g: C++ took all of C, and slapped on more stuff
12:48 masak and yet C++ is not exactly compatible...
12:48 moritz nicola_g: Perl 6 took only ideas from Perl 5, otherwise it's a complete redesign
12:49 moritz ok, *nearly* all of C
12:49 nicola_g i like the feature "everything is a reference"
12:49 masak yes, it tends to simplify things.
12:49 masak not as many ->
12:50 nicola_g but using the "." is a little bit inverted in comparison to c++ or php
12:51 moritz it's more like in java or ruby or python
12:51 nicola_g ppl usually know that "->" is for reference and "." is for an object
12:51 araujo joined #perl6
12:52 nicola_g who started the idea of building this perl6?
12:52 nicola_g i mean this branch of perl
12:52 nicola_g not larry wall?
12:53 am0c joined #perl6
12:54 moritz it was larry wall
12:54 mathw It was indeed
12:54 nicola_g oh ic ic
12:55 nicola_g nice talking to u guys, i continue my work :)
12:55 moritz have the appropriate amount of fun!
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13:02 tadzik I always have fun with inappropriate amount of fun
13:02 mathw I have an inappropriate amount of fun sometimes
13:02 mathw And no fun other times
13:02 mathw I'm not sure about having the appropriate amount of fun
13:02 moritz now that's a problem.
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13:10 miso2217 does lookaround in regexes work in rakudo?
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13:10 moritz ahead, yes
13:10 JimmyZ_ is now known as JimmyZ
13:10 moritz behind is NYI
13:11 moritz it worked in alpha
13:11 masak it was a total hack in alpha/PGE, but it worked.
13:12 miso2217 moritz: ahead but not behind yet, thats it?
13:13 masak miso2217: yes, that's it.
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13:16 miso2217 masak: ok thx. I was trying to find an apropriate example for the Backtracking chapter using lookbehind, no luck :-(
13:16 JimmyZ left #perl6
13:17 miso2217 masak: chapter (of the book)
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13:22 flussence wait, how long has <?after> worked in rakudo for?
13:22 flussence looks like I can take that one todo out of T-T-W now...
13:22 moritz flussence: after only worked in alpha
13:22 moritz that's look-behind
13:23 flussence yeah but I just tried something using it and it worked...
13:23 moritz rakudo: say 'foo' ~~ /<?after f> . /
13:23 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Method 'after' not found for invocant of class 'Cursor'␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/wKZTfKLIuZ␤  in 'Cool::match' at line 2661:CORE.setting␤  in 'Regex::ACCEPTS' at line 6279:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/wKZTfKLIuZ␤»
13:23 PerlJam good morning #perl6
13:24 flussence this specifically: github.com/flussence/Text-Tabs-Wrap/blob/master/t/Jacobson.t
13:24 moritz good morning PerlJam
13:24 moritz flussence: maybe it never calls $break for some reason?
13:25 flussence hm, I'll have to double-check that.
13:25 moritz add a  { die "really called" } block to the regex
13:26 flussence it died!
13:27 moritz wtf
13:27 flussence oh.
13:27 flussence it died without too.
13:27 flussence the todo line was making it look ok.
13:27 moritz alpha: say 'foo' ~~ /<?after f> ./
13:27 p6eval alpha : OUTPUT«o␤»
13:27 * flussence facepalm
13:27 moritz :-)
13:30 masak this course really vibes with me.
13:30 masak I used to think BDD was really a stupid re-branding of TDD, but now I suddenly see the use of it.
13:31 * moritz adjusts masaks base mode
13:31 * masak makes a bunch of weemy radio noises
13:31 PerlJam masak: So what have you learning about BDD that's useful?
13:32 masak let me try to put it into words.
13:32 [Coke] bdd?
13:32 masak I'll definitely talk more about it on Friday-or-whenever.
13:32 PerlJam [Coke]: behavior driven development
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13:32 masak [Coke]: the original idea being to structure things into given-when-then segments.
13:33 masak [Coke]: and then making your customer/domain expert write the bdd tests. or at least evolving them together with the customer.
13:33 masak [Coke]: what I had seen so far was mostly Ruby going overboard with brittle language parsing for their BDD tests.
13:34 masak which, frankly, wasn't very impressive.
13:34 masak PerlJam: I think the use comes out of doing this on top of a model that deals in Command and Event objects.
13:35 PerlJam masak: There's also the problem of developers losing sight of what they're really testing.  The further away from the code they get the crazier they seem to become  :)
13:35 masak PerlJam: suddenly the return types become: List<Event> Given -- Command When -- void all_the_different_then_methods
13:35 masak PerlJam: that's another nice thing about this course. the speaker is more than slightly anti-framework.
13:36 PerlJam masak: wish I coudl be there then.  The only treatments of the subject I've seen invovle cucumber fanatics and such.
13:36 masak we've spent the afternoons so far actually coding in different ways.
13:36 masak yesterday I wrote Perl 6 code on the course! :)
13:37 moritz PerlJam: then attend masak's mini online course (see backlog for a doodle link)
13:37 masak PerlJam: after seeing this, cucumber looks like a tragic shadow of what BDD could be.
13:37 masak PerlJam: http://www.doodle.com/g6vsp3h3rs5cnk2v
13:37 masak moritz++ # for reminding me
13:37 masak yes, come to the mini course. you don't have to sign up, but you get to help pick the date and time.
13:38 masak I'm so happy about what I'm learning here, and it's so widely applicable, that I want to pass it on.
13:38 moritz my reaction to that is "is there a good book about it?"
13:39 sftp joined #perl6
13:39 moritz and if yes, "when can I win my next EUR 100 amazon voucher?" :-) (j/k)
13:41 masak :P
13:41 masak moritz: there are books that prepare for this course.
13:41 masak we've gotten a few book recommendations. I plan to turn them into an Amazon wishlist today or tomorrow.
13:41 masak then I can post the url here.
13:42 * moritz remembers where he read about similar concepts
13:42 moritz bertran meyer, "object-oriented software construction"
13:43 moritz who basically says that mutators shouldn't return anything
13:43 moritz that was the book that really made me understand OO
13:43 masak that book is one of the four on the list.
13:44 masak the concept is called CQS.
13:44 masak Command-Query Separation.
13:44 masak I used the terms a little in reviewing the p6cc entries.
13:44 moritz I read some of the draft chapters for the 3rd edition, iirc
13:44 masak this book is the important DDD book: http://www.amazon.com/Domain-Driven-Design-Tackling-Complexity-Software/dp/0321125215
13:44 moritz and read the entire previous edition, or something
13:45 masak apparently, it's the 2nd edition that's good.
13:45 masak 3rd is too bloated.
13:47 miso2217 does quantified matching work in rakudo?
13:47 tadzik ywis
13:47 miso2217 rakudo: if "foo:food fool\nbar:bard barb" ~~ m/ [ (\w+) \: (\w+ \h*)* \n ] ** 2..* /  { say 'match |', $/.perl, '|'; } else { say 'no match'; }
13:47 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«no match␤»
13:48 PerlJam miso2217: you don't have a newline at the end of the second line
13:49 miso2217 PerlJam: thx. took it directly from the synopses without looking at it twice
13:50 masak miso2217: I think that range might not parse as you think it does.
13:50 masak it parses as [...] ** 2 . .*
13:51 masak or not. I might be misremembering.
13:51 moritz rakudo: say so"foo:food fool\nbar:bard barb\n" ~~ m/ [ (\w+) \: (\w+ \h*)* \n ] ** 2..* /
13:51 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
13:52 moritz rakudo: say so"foo:food fool\nbar:bard barb\n" ~~ m/ [ (\w+) \: (\w+ \h*)* \n ] ** 2..* /; say $/
13:52 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤foo:food fool␤bar:bard barb␤␤»
13:52 tadzik oh, Moose 2.0
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14:26 JimmyZ jnthn: ping
14:34 jaffa4 what should I use for past?
14:35 jaffa4 dalek: paste
14:36 jaffa4 std: token word { \w+ }
14:36 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
14:36 jaffa4 std: token word { \w+ } rule phrase { <word> [ \, <word> ]* \. }
14:36 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/JNMRvPU5kn line 1:␤------> [32mtoken word { \w+ }[33m⏏[31m rule phrase { <word> [ \, <word> ]* \. [0m␤    expecting any of:␤        bracketed infix␤        infix or
14:36 p6eval ..meta-infix␤    stateme…
14:39 miso2217 std: token word { \w+ } rule phrase { <&word> [ \, <&word> ]* \. }
14:39 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/jmjfsqg9gu line 1:␤------> [32mtoken word { \w+ }[33m⏏[31m rule phrase { <&word> [ \, <&word> ]* \[0m␤    expecting any of:␤        bracketed infix␤        infix or
14:39 p6eval ..meta-infix␤    stateme…
14:39 miso2217 std: token word { \w+ }; rule phrase { <&word> [ \, <&word> ]* \. }
14:39 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 125m␤»
14:42 tadzik jaffa4: whatever works for you really
14:42 tadzik people like nopaste.snit.ch
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14:47 moritz or gist.github.com
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14:58 jaffa4 what is proto token statement { <...> }?
14:59 jaffa4 ...?
14:59 moritz obsolete syntax
14:59 miso2217 is the :g adverb for global matching implemented?
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15:00 miso2217 rakudo: say so 'aa' ~~ m:g/\w/, say $/;
15:00 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Adverb 'g' not allowed on m at line 22, near ", say $/;"␤»
15:00 moritz miso2217: it works on s:g///
15:00 miso2217 rakudo: say so 'aa' ~~ m:g/\w/; say $/;
15:00 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Adverb 'g' not allowed on m at line 22, near "; say $/;"␤»
15:00 moritz miso2217: but I had problems coming up with a good return value for m:g//, so I haven't implemented it yet
15:01 moritz niecza: say 'aa' ~~ m:g/a/
15:01 miso2217 moritz: ah, ok, is there some kind of workaround?
15:01 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«a␤»
15:01 moritz niecza: say ~('aa' ~~ m:g/a/)
15:01 p6eval niecza v4-47-gfffa4cd: OUTPUT«a␤»
15:02 moritz rakudo: .say for 'abc'.match(:g, rx/./)
15:02 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«a␤b␤c␤»
15:02 jnthn o/ #perl6
15:02 moritz hm
15:02 moritz ah, I remember what the problem was
15:02 sbp hey jnthn
15:03 jaffa4 What was it?
15:03 moritz if m:g// returns a list of matches (like Str.match(:g) does), what's in $/ ?
15:03 jaffa4 What is in $/?
15:03 moritz jaffa4: see S05
15:03 jaffa4 What is in $/ usually?
15:04 sbp "The underlying match object is now available via the $/ variable"
15:04 sbp http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/S05.html
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15:07 jaffa4 is s05 up to date?
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15:10 miso2217 feather is down, http://perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html#Quantified_subpattern_captures
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15:11 flussence rakudo: say 'abcabcbcba' ~~ m/(a) ** [.*]/
15:11 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«abcabcbcba␤»
15:11 flussence rakudo: say ('abcabcbcba' ~~ m/(a) ** [.*]/).perl
15:11 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Match.new(␤ from => 0,␤ orig => "abcabcbcba",␤ to   => 10,␤ positional => [␤[␤    Match.new(␤     from => 0,␤     orig => "abcabcbcba",␤     to   => 1,␤    ),␤    Match.new(␤     from => 9,␤     orig => "abcabcbcba",␤     to   => 10,␤    ),␤  ],␤  ],␤)␤»
15:12 flussence hm, only 2 'a' matches
15:13 flussence rakudo: say ('abcabcbcba' ~~ m/(a) ** [<!$0>*]/).perl
15:13 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in can()␤  in <anon> at line 1␤  in 'Cool::match' at line 2661:CORE.setting␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/3waHMe7Fur␤»
15:13 flussence ooh, I broke something
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15:17 miso2217 flussence: I don't see anything about the possiility to quantify the separator int he ** <separator> form in S05
15:18 bbkr_ std: sub foo(Hash %y) { 1 }; # I think I found STD bug. This is legal definition of hash(because of sigil) of hashes(because of Hash type). In other words Associative[Hash]. But STD returns unrelated error. Can someone confirm?
15:18 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  %y is declared but not used at /tmp/cGmEjD1WG2 line 1:␤------> [32msub foo(Hash [33m⏏[31m%y) { 1 }; # I think I found STD bug. Th[0m␤ok 00:02 123m␤»
15:18 moritz miso2217: <separator> can be any possible rule, in theory
15:18 jaffa4 rakudo:  "a"~~m:c(0)/ 3 /
15:18 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
15:18 jaffa4 rakudo:  "3"~~m:c(0)/ 3 /
15:18 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
15:18 moritz bbkr_: not an error, just a warning
15:18 moritz bbkr_: read it :-)
15:19 jaffa4 rakudo:  "3"~~m:c(0)/ 3 /; print $/.perl;
15:19 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Match.new(␤ from => 0,␤ orig => "3",␤ to   => 1,␤)»
15:19 moritz std: my %h # same thing
15:19 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
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15:19 moritz huh, or not :-)
15:19 jaffa4 rakudo:  "3"~~m:c(0)/ 3 /; print $/;
15:19 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«3»
15:19 jaffa4 rakudo:  "33334"~~m:c(0)/ 3+ /; print $/;
15:19 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«3333»
15:19 jaffa4 rakudo:  "33334"~~m:c(2)/ 3+ /; print $/;
15:19 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«33»
15:21 jaffa4 rakudo:  "33334"~~m:pos(2)/ 3+ /; print $/;
15:21 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«33»
15:22 jaffa4 rakudo:  "33334"~~ms:pos(2)/ 3+ /; print $/;
15:22 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
15:22 jaffa4 rakudo:  " 3333 4"~~ms:pos(0)/ 3+ /; print $/;
15:22 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT« 3333 »
15:22 jaffa4 rakudo:  "3333 4"~~ms:pos(0)/ 3+ /; print $/;
15:22 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«3333 »
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16:04 miso2217 moritz: what do you think about this new attempt on a real life example for Backtracking:
16:04 miso2217 moritz: my regex word4 { <[a..z']>+ }; my regex after_can { (<&word4>) \W+ <?{ $0 eq 'can' }> <&word4> }; .say for "can this can't that.".match(:g, rx/ ( <&after_can> ) /);
16:04 miso2217 moritz: my token word4 { <[a..z']>+ }; my regex after_can { (<&word4>) \W+ <?{ $0 eq 'can' }> <&word4> }; .say for "can this can't that.".match(:g, rx/ ( <&after_can> ) /);
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16:23 mberends wow, the backlog and links about Design Patterns yesterday gave me several hours of interesting reading after $work :)
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16:26 mberends especially thought provoking is Greenspun's Tenth Rule: Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc informally-specified bug-ridden slow implementation of half of Common Lisp. ;)
16:26 birdwindupbird mberends: What links?
16:26 phenny birdwindupbird: 09 Apr 18:19Z <tadzik> tell birdwindupbird if you look closely, you notice that the tests pass. The above message is just a side effect of checking the behaviour of a doomed to fail situation, and is completely ok
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16:27 mberends birdwindupbird: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2005/06/are-design-patterns-how-languages-evolve.html http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html etc
16:28 birdwindupbird mberends: Thanks
16:29 mberends birdwindupbird: and #perl6 discussion starting at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-04-11#i_3478803
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16:40 birdwindupbird mberends: Thanks a lot
16:41 mberends birdwindupbird: what other languages do you use?
16:42 birdwindupbird you mean programming lang or natural?
16:42 birdwindupbird s/lang/langs/
16:43 mberends heh, programming first, maybe human after that (thought about that after I'd pressed Enter ;)
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16:48 birdwindupbird mberends:  primarily c++, javascript, a little bit interested in perl5, now deeply looking into p6. afterword i am more interested in software design, OOP and OOD, design patterns, multi-threading, distributed computing and may be other good stuff and software technologies.
16:48 birdwindupbird left #perl6
16:48 * [Coke] wants to learn a human language. Sucks being stuck here in suburban USA.
16:49 [Coke] *another
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16:49 mberends for me it's Perl, (C|C++|Java|C#), JavaScript, SQL, *cough*Basic
16:49 moritz [Coke]: you were too fast. I was about to suggest "English" :-)
16:49 huf how about an inhuman language?
16:49 huf something banned by the geneva convention
16:49 PerlJam huf: I've always wanted to learn dolphin.
16:50 PerlJam huf: although cricket might be useful to me where I currently live.
16:50 huf :)))
16:50 mberends lolspeak is pretty useful on some IRC channels
16:50 huf cricket is what ricket became when brits started to get enough vitamins
16:53 mberends English is not rated very highly when it comes to qualities of a language, but like the x86 instruction set that doesn't matter. As Stalin is supposed to have said, quantity has a quality all of its own.
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16:54 tadzik mberends! \o/
16:54 huf mberends: i only know two and a half languages but i've always liked english
16:54 huf it's got it where it counts
16:54 mberends ahoj tadzik!
16:55 moritz .oO( English has it's quirks :-)
16:55 huf like any of them :)
16:56 PerlJam galactic standard is likely to be closer to spanish than english though  ;)
16:56 huf nah, it's bound to be something very very unexpected
16:57 PerlJam chinese?
16:57 moritz Quechua
16:57 huf no, something that's very small now
16:57 huf but will expand to trillions of speakers in the future
16:57 PerlJam huf: that weird clicking language they use in africa/
16:57 huf etruscan oslt ;)
16:57 moritz PerlJam: Swahili?
16:57 huf someone will rediscover it and then it'll spread all over
16:58 huf moritz: i think he means the one the bushmen speak in that movie (maybe?)
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16:59 * moritz might not know "that movie", depending on which you mean :-)
16:59 huf "animals are beautiful people" or "gods must be crazy"
16:59 huf i think. i saw them with hungarian titles and narration and it was a long time ago
17:00 mberends oh, hungarian, that must be it ;)
17:00 PerlJam Perl will have morphed into a "natural language" a million years from now.
17:00 huf nah, we'll never spread our language. we'll be the chosen people when the antichrist brings total war
17:01 huf our country will stay above the waves like a second ararat
17:01 huf (or so some looney claimed in a viral youtube video a few years back)
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17:01 huf PerlJam: now that's a good idea!
17:02 mberends those films were made by Jamie Uys in the 1970's and 80's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Uys
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17:02 PerlJam And in an even odder twist, peace and prosperity will come with a Perlian mantra stolen from a 20th century movie:  "be excellent to each other"
17:03 huf duuuuuude
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17:06 jaffa4 rakudo : my @d=1; print "1"~~/@d/;
17:06 jaffa4 rakudo: my @d=1; print "1"~~/@d/;
17:06 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«1»
17:06 jaffa4 rakudo: my @d=2; print "1"~~/@d/;
17:06 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
17:08 jaffa4 rakudo: my @d=1,2; print "1"~~/@d/;
17:08 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
17:08 jaffa4 should that work?
17:10 jaffa4 rakudo: my @d=<1 2>; print "1"~~/@d/;
17:10 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
17:10 mberends rakudo: my @d=1,2; print ("1"~~/@d/).perl; # if that helps
17:10 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Match.new(␤ from => 1,␤ orig => "1",␤ to   => -3,␤)»
17:11 jaffa4 rakudo: my @d=1,2; print ("1"~~/@d/);
17:11 p6eval rakudo 4bf132:  ( no output )
17:11 jaffa4 rakudo: my @d=1,2; print ("1"~~/@d/.perl);
17:11 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Bool::False»
17:11 mberends it seems to return something, but stringifying that for the print returns nothing
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17:12 jaffa4 It does not work
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17:17 moritz rakudo: my @d=1,2; print ("1"~~/@d/).perl
17:17 p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Match.new(␤ from => 1,␤ orig => "1",␤ to   => -3,␤)»
17:17 moritz precedence
17:18 moritz oh, I see that mberends++ already wrote that
17:19 jaffa4 to
17:20 jaffa4 is -3. It does not seem to be correct.
17:20 flussence why are we using numeric failure values in a language with a type system? :)
17:20 mberends the -3 even looks like an uninitialized varaible
17:21 flussence mberends: I'm pretty sure it's initialised somewhere, it's always -3 from what I've seen.
17:21 mberends "always -3" :)
17:21 flussence well, when it's not a valid value
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17:22 flussence makes me wonder if it's some low-level enum somewhere.
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17:35 moritz jaffa4: .from and .orig of a failed match are pretty meaningless
17:36 jaffa4 that match should not have failed
17:36 jaffa4 OR should it?
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18:08 colomon #phasers in 52 minutes?
18:08 moritz oh right, there's #phasers
18:08 moritz I should pre-report
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18:13 masak oh hai, zebras.
18:13 tadzik hai
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18:24 masak mberends: I find English is rated not-very-highly by people with an agenda. I say this as someone who has spent a lot of time with IAL idealists. the more idealist, the higher the disregard for English, generally.
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18:27 [Coke] IAL?
18:27 masak International Auxiliary Language
18:27 masak Esperanto, among others.
18:29 [Coke] jIyajbe'
18:29 masak if English is as unusable as these people claim, how come it's increasingly ubiquitous?
18:29 masak it's like they think they can topple the language by pointing out its obvious flaws.
18:30 mberends masak: I do not consciously have a linguistic agenda. My partial grasp of French, Latin and German convince me that English and Dutch are have too many ugly awkward bits. English is popular for the same reason that Microsoft Office is popular..
18:30 masak mberends: I've yet to find a working spoken langauge without ugly bits.
18:31 masak mberends: the world is a messy place. languages tend to inherit that.
18:32 mberends masak: :-)
18:32 masak I find English, like Windows, gets much of the flak *because* it's used for so many things, including some things it was never very good at.
18:33 mberends aye, it's the least worst option in many cases
18:34 masak that said, I would definitely recommend to [Coke] and anyone else to try on a different language. it opens up new vistas in the brain.
18:35 mberends literally. multilingualism is associated with mental development in children.
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18:37 masak naturallement.
18:38 PerlJam especially if the language is radically different from your own in some way.
18:38 PerlJam arabic - written RTL insteadof LTR
18:39 PerlJam chinese - tone matters more than usual in english when speaking  :)
18:39 masak well yes. tone is part of the word, not the sentence. :)
18:40 masak I'm still amazed how Chinese people manage to put in both tones for the words and a sentence melody.
18:40 moritz or doesn't have tenses, or doesn't have cases, or doesn't have .... you name it :-)
18:40 masak and the waterbed theory definitely holds there.
18:41 masak you can count on, if a language doesn't have tenses, it has something else instead.
18:41 masak case endings are often interchangeable with prepositions.
18:42 PerlJam As a westerner, I have trouble unstanding (in a big-picture sort of way) many eastern languages.  The cadences are all wrong, the intonation is weird, etc.
18:43 masak PerlJam: my Russian teacher told me of how she got a lot of angry looks in the subway asking "is this your stop?". turns out she hadn't mastered the melody and what she said sounded like a statement, not a question.
18:45 PerlJam Japanese makes some sense but only after it had been explained to me by a spanish-speaking person who related it through spanish sounds.   (I don't really understand much spanich, but it's a language I have some handle on  :)
18:45 PerlJam er, spanish even
18:49 masak Japanese phonology has many of the qualities of a minimalist auxiliary language. :)
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18:59 Util moritz: thanks
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19:04 [Coke] masak: I have exposure to, in roughly decreasing order of ability, english, spanish, german, latin, japanese, and bulgarian. There's just no one to practice with, so I get bored (and then stale)
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19:09 masak oh, I can relate to that.
19:14 [Coke] Hurm. my neighbor is Polish. Perhaps I can learn from her.
19:14 tadzik oh, a fellow Pole :)
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19:15 [Coke] "hey, do you know her?"
19:15 tadzik I don't think so :)
19:16 PerlJam That kind of thing does happen from time to time
19:17 [Coke] Czy jestem aresztowany?
19:17 [Coke] (the sort of useful thing you can find on wikitravel!)
19:17 tadzik Masz prawo do telefonu :)
19:21 * [Coke] listens to the spoken version of that on google translate and his ears go blind.
19:21 [Coke] apparently that will require some study
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19:45 masak phenny: "Czy jestem aresztowany? -- Masz prawo do telefonu :)"?
19:45 phenny masak: "Am I under arrest? - You have a right to your phone:)" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
19:45 * masak guessed right :)
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20:26 masak good night, #perl6.
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22:02 ashleydev how does the hindly-milner type system play into the design of perl6?
22:05 sbp ashleydev: seen the first paragraph here?
22:05 sbp http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/AUDREYT/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.13/docs/notes/type_meta.pod
22:05 * frettled googles hindly-milner type system
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22:11 ashleydev sbp are those notes linked still the plan?
22:11 sbp can't help you there, I'm afraid; no idea
22:11 sbp these were speculative notes, and they're associated with pugs, which is out of date
22:11 sbp that's as much as I know
22:12 TimToady they never were the plan
22:13 ashleydev what's the type system plan then?  And does it take any nods from the hindly-milner system?
22:15 sbp (*Hindley)
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22:16 * TimToady generally invents his own theory on the fly
22:16 * justatheory generally feeds flies to TimToady
22:18 sbp Lemma #1. TimToady creates his own type system on the fly. Proof. P, and The Hairy Ball Theorem via Sperner's Lemma. Therefore Q. QED. Corollary #1. Perl6 is a good flycatcher.
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22:24 ashleydev Is there more work to be done on the type system design then?
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23:44 mberends ashleydev: the reference to Perl 6 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindley-Milner#algorithm is only speculation. A more believable expectation is http://6guts.wordpress.com/2010/09/20/gradual-typing-merged-mops-and-bounded-serialization/ which is on the Rakudo or 6model roadmap but Not Yet Implemented.
23:51 mberends ashleydev: there is sure to be more work to be done on the design because the implementations are not done yet, and we never freeze any aspect of the design until there is consensus from several implementations.
23:51 mberends Integrating the processor's native types is currently beginning to cross the designers' minds, for example speculating whether to expose the number of bits in a native int came up most recently, and making or accessing native structs is an unsolved problem.
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