Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-04-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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06:38 Layla_91 helo o/
06:40 Layla_91 mmm.. like ghost city O_o
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06:46 moritz you mean ghosts sneaking up from behind and saying "Boo" from time to time? :-)
06:47 Layla_91 hehe :D
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06:47 Layla_91 Booooooo! :P
06:48 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
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06:49 Layla_91 people come and leave.. like what happens in life.... :-/
06:50 moritz see Detroit :/
06:51 Layla_91 Detriot? what's with it?
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06:51 moritz it's rather empty
06:52 TiMBuS its not a city, its a house farm. you just gotta harvest them
06:52 Layla_91 mmm... spooky O_O
06:57 Layla_91 time for my morning cookie :P see you ghosts! :-O
07:07 Layla_91 guys, i want something :P I have a directory with files and directories inside it, I need to replace all occurences of that start with <? followed by anything that is not php or xml with <?php in all files and directories in that folder.. can you give me a one liner ? :)
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07:13 sorear Layla_91: find dir -type f | xargs perl -i -pe 's/PATTERN/REPLACEMENT/'
07:13 sorear s///g
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07:21 Layla_91 thanks sorear :)
07:22 Layla_91 by the way, if it is early morning there where you are, listen to this I liked it^_^  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6O2ncUKvlg&amp;feature=player_embedded#at=43
07:22 sorear heheh "early" morning
07:22 sorear 0023
07:23 Layla_91 sorear: oh too late go to sleep :P Still listen to the song I am hearing it all morning ^_^
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07:28 jnthn morning o/
07:28 Layla_91 jnthn: \o/!
07:28 jnthn Layla_91: \o/!
07:28 Layla_91 you too listen to the song I posted :P it is old but made my morning :D
07:29 Layla_91 jnthn: i have bad news :S but will tell you later, (do not want to ruin my mood :S)
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07:35 jnthn Layla_91: on noes
07:35 * jnthn can guess what it will be :'(
07:37 tadzik Layla_91: \o/
07:37 Layla_91 jnthn: i was going crazy :( forget it :(
07:37 Layla_91 tadzik: heeey! :D
07:37 tadzik and good morning pandas
07:37 Layla_91 tadzik: No more zebras? :P
07:37 jnthn And the animal of the month is... :)
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07:39 moritz zeda! panbra!
07:39 Layla_91 mmm.. i love Squirrels :P
07:40 Layla_91 they are cute ^_^
07:40 jnthn Until they attack
07:40 jnthn :)
07:40 tadzik I can't sleep anymore! /o\
07:40 Layla_91 noooo.. they are not like humans :P
07:41 Layla_91 tadzik: what is the time there?
07:41 moritz .oO( "an army of squirrels is still an army" )
07:41 jnthn heh :)
07:41 Layla_91 moritz: squirrels are friendly :(
07:41 moritz Layla_91: I've seen squirrels (verbally) quarrel about food on our balcony :-)
07:42 Layla_91 moritz: they need food just like us :)
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07:43 moritz in fact is was quite cute how they argued :-)
07:44 tadzik Layla_91: 09:43, but it's because of the squirrels, jnthn made me scared :)
07:44 Layla_91 tadzik: they ARE FRIENDLY! :D
07:44 Layla_91 i love them ^_^
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07:59 jnthn .oO( phew, I managed to resist posting the link to the news story about a pack of squirrels nomming a dog... )
08:00 tadzik .g squirrels ate dog
08:00 phenny tadzik: http://www.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4489792.stm
08:01 tadzik Russian squirrels! And you told me they're cute Layla!
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08:12 * moritz thinks about the error messages again
08:13 moritz suppose we do carry the main information about exception classification in types
08:13 moritz then there will be a bunch of roles like X::IO and X::Syntax etc. that can be composed into error classes
08:13 moritz and then there will be the actual error classes
08:14 moritz would it make sense to pack them into separate namespaces? a la  EX::IO::CloseFailed does X::IO { ... }
08:16 moritz or maybe not, if we want to keep them all as roles, and pun them for instantiation. Then all of them would be easily reusable for new error objects
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08:26 jnthn Having some kind of namespace hierarchy doesn't strike me as a bad thing.
08:26 jnthn Was X vs EX deliberate there?
08:27 moritz that's what my question was about
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08:28 moritz if it makes sense to have (say) X:: for more general roles that are mixed into directly used error types in the EX:: namespace
08:28 moritz but I guess it's not really a good idea to separate them
08:30 jnthn Oh, I see
08:30 jnthn No, I think I'd rather not have things spread over two top-level namespaces.
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08:35 * moritz discards the idea
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08:55 moritz I still wonder if we should have some uniq IDs except the type, to ease i18n
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08:59 daxim yes please.  "RAKUDO-123 You forgot to mogrify the frobnitzer."  "RAKUDO-123 Sie haben versäumt, den Frobnitzer zu mogrifizieren."
09:00 * moritz is not sure if the error ID should be shown by default
09:00 moritz and if yes, if at the end maybe
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09:58 moritz rakudo: role A { has $.x }; role B { has $.x }; class N does A does B { }; say N.new(x => 2).x
09:58 p6eval rakudo 5ac05e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Attribute '$!x' conflicts in role composition␤»
09:59 moritz :(
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10:05 jnthn That's...correct, no?
10:05 jnthn And if the attribute didn't conflict, the accessor methods surely would.
10:07 moritz right, but not what I want right now :-)
10:07 moritz I know that it's sane behavior, and that I can't have it both ways :-)
10:13 moritz what I'm currently considering is: many errors include the error message from the operating system
10:13 moritz for example: "Can't open '$<file>' for writing: $!"
10:13 moritz so I probably want and $.os-error attribute somewhere
10:13 moritz s/and/an/
10:14 moritz and first I wanted to stick it into X::IO, but then I realized that it's not just IO
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10:14 moritz for example memory allocation can also fail with an OS error
10:14 moritz so, separate role? or just resolve the few conflicts manually?
10:34 flussence I kinda like the idea of using roles like a tagging system for exceptions, so +1 to that
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10:58 jnthn moritz: A role isn't supposed to conflict with itself
10:58 jnthn moritz: So separate role could work
10:58 jnthn does OSErrorContainage
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12:46 moritz perl6: print 1 + 2
12:46 p6eval pugs, rakudo 5ac05e, niecza v4-66-g11b04b4: OUTPUT«3»
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14:00 bbkr_ std: "a" ~~ / * ** 1/
14:00 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 123m␤»
14:00 bbkr_ rakudo: "a" ~~ / * ** 1/
14:00 p6eval rakudo 5ac05e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Quantifier follows nothing at line 22, near " ** 1/"␤»
14:01 jnthn Hmm...what does STD parse that * as?
14:01 * moritz believes rakudo in this case
14:01 bbkr_ which one is correct? STD is missing detection of this case or Rakudo should process it?
14:01 moritz std: /* ** 1/
14:01 p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Quantifier quantifies nothing at /tmp/oaE_lVbzF0 line 1:␤------> [32m/*[33m⏏[31m ** 1/[0m␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
14:02 bbkr_ o!
14:02 jnthn er...
14:02 moritz if I read the parse tree correctly, it quantifies the whitespace
14:02 jnthn oh...
14:02 jnthn Hm
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14:03 jnthn Unless :s is on, that's almost certainly wrong. I'm skeptical it's a good idea even then...
14:03 moritz even with :s it's wrong, IMHO
14:03 flussence looks wrong to me too
14:03 bbkr_ where should I report?
14:03 jnthn Yeah, quantifying <.ws> is generally wrong.
14:03 * jnthn thinks Rakudo calls this one right
14:04 jnthn niecza: say  "a" ~~ / * ** 1/
14:04 p6eval niecza v4-66-g11b04b4: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: OutOfMemoryException␤»
14:04 moritz http://nopaste.snit.ch/40771
14:04 jnthn Wow :)
14:04 moritz the hopefully relevant part of the parse tree
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14:06 jnthn *nod*
14:06 * jnthn agrees with moritz++ analysis
14:07 dalek evalbot: 55fbc65 | moritz++ | build-scripts/rebuild-std.sh:
14:07 dalek evalbot: [rebuild-std.sh] fix permission
14:07 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/55fbc6521d
14:07 moritz bbkr_++ # finding bugs
14:09 dalek evalbot: 7160e0c | moritz++ | build-scripts/rebuild-std.sh:
14:09 dalek evalbot: update paths
14:09 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/7160e0ccdc
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14:20 moritz std: / * ** 1/ # update should work now
14:20 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
14:26 moritz TimToady: ^^
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14:41 tadzik do we have anything fancy for NEWS this month?
14:42 tadzik I didn't do any commits this month :\
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14:45 moritz we have a new IO::Socket::INET implementation
14:47 tadzik hmm, I was planning to bite the Socket PMC a bit
14:50 sorear good * #perl6
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14:50 moritz oh hai sorear
14:52 dalek rakudo: 5ee8c3c | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
14:52 dalek rakudo: bump PARROT_REVISION for testing
14:52 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5ee8c3c18a
14:52 dalek rakudo: 5809a86 | moritz++ | src/ (5 files):
14:52 dalek rakudo: tracked rename of some parrot functions
14:52 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5809a86b2d
14:53 jnthn moritz++
14:53 flussence anyone wanna add that Str.indent thing I did?
14:54 moritz flussence: is it spec? where is it?
14:54 flussence bottom of S32/Str, and lemme find the code...
14:55 flussence https://github.com/flussence/p6-misc/blob/master/Str-indent.pm
14:56 * moritz will look into copying it over
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15:09 jnthn meeting &
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15:16 moritz flussence: I've copied your code into src/core/Str.pm, and added an 'our $?TABSTOP = 8' on the top...
15:16 moritz flussence: it compiles, but then at startup bails out with 'Could not find sub &substr'
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15:17 moritz flussence: I'm interested in integrating it, but can't spend much time debugging that issuse right now
15:21 tadzik I can look into it (free karma!)
15:21 moritz it comes at the cost of time you need to invest
15:22 moritz ++tadzik
15:23 flussence maybe that needs to be a method on the string...
15:23 * flussence doesn't have much idea how the internal bits work
15:24 moritz calling setting functions from within the setting is a bit brittle
15:24 moritz but I haven't seen any substr() in your patch
15:26 flussence huh, well now I'm lost.
15:28 moritz might be related to 'our $?TABSTOP' or so either
15:35 sorear our $?TABSTOP is almost certainly not valid Perl6
15:35 moritz I know :/
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15:40 tadzik Confused at line 5003, near "}\n# From s"
15:40 tadzik ...sweet
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15:54 tadzik yayitcompiled
15:54 tadzik any spectests to run for that?
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15:58 tadzik flussence: # Looks like you failed 8 tests of 51
15:59 tadzik http://nopaste.snit.ch/40774
16:02 * TimToady is wondering whether try {...} defaults not to handling an exception but rather to 'unthrowing' it, that is, turning it back into an unthrown exception, more like fail returns
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16:03 tadzik flussence: want me to branchpush it, so you can check it out?
16:04 TimToady also, $! isn't so much the "current exception" as it is the current exception state, which happens to know how to report the current exception if stringified, for instance
16:05 TimToady but could easily be told to dump the entire exception state to a file, for instance, where the current state could be as detailed as you like, including "cockpit recordings" and the like
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16:06 PerlJam TimToady: you have some lofty ambitions for Perl 6  ;)
16:06 PerlJam TimToady++
16:07 hanekomu left #perl6
16:08 TimToady right now the most sought-after cockpit recordings in the world are far from lofty
16:09 mj41 joined #perl6
16:10 PerlJam They were lofty at the time of recording.
16:11 mtk joined #perl6
16:11 TimToady but now their loftiness is abysmal...
16:12 flussence tadzik: go ahead
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16:13 tadzik flussence: hand on, compiling once again
16:16 flussence (I think those test fails are caused by $?TABSTOP being odd, I'll get around to trying in a minute...)
16:19 tadzik is github down
16:20 tadzik ?
16:20 flussence up for me
16:21 tadzik nvm, I fail at git
16:21 tadzik lolipushed
16:22 tadzik flussence: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/compare/str-indent
16:23 flussence ok, compiling rakudo with it now
16:24 PerlJam TimToady: what's a link to your "natural language concepts" paper?
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16:25 PerlJam google is being obstinate for me right now.
16:27 PerlJam never mind .... I found something that's close enough to what I was looking for.
16:27 tadzik mind sharing?
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16:41 flussence tadzik: I took the indent.p6 in my repo, commented out the "use Str-indent", changed its local $?TABSTOP to 8 and all the tests pass.
16:41 flussence guess it'll do until rakudo gets proper constants...
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16:46 flussence problem is, $?TABSTOP *has* to be defined and I can't just do $tab=$?TABSTOP//8; ...
16:46 tadzik oh, I didn't change this local tabstop
16:46 flussence yeah it's defined twice, that'll probably slip you up :)
16:46 tadzik aye, now it works
16:46 tadzik but it doesn't if I comment it out. Intentional?
16:47 flussence if you didn't set it, it *should* default to 8... I don't know a good way to do that in rakudo though.
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16:47 tadzik hrm
16:48 tadzik what's the ? twigil anyway?
16:48 flussence constant
16:48 flussence AIUI these should be globals anyway
16:49 flussence which is probably what sorear was saying before about it not being valid perl6
16:49 flussence my/our should be "constant"
16:49 tadzik hmmm
16:50 tadzik what if we make it a contextual, and warn the users "don't change it, it's a bug you can"?
16:50 flussence that'd be better than nothing...
16:51 tadzik I'll see if it works then
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16:52 tadzik waitwaitwait. What is $?TABSTOP speced to be?
16:52 flussence afaik, nothing
16:52 flussence .indent says "$?TABSTOP or 8"
16:52 tadzik but the spectests use it, the $?TABSTOP?
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16:53 sorear it's supposed to be caller.hints('$?TABSTOP') // 8
16:53 sorear but only one implementation supposed CallFrame.hints yet :P
16:53 tadzik no TABSTOP in spectests.
16:54 tadzik flussence: no spectest for indent in roast, are those your?
16:54 tadzik * yours?
16:54 flussence those were mine, yes
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16:55 tadzik ok. So it's not much of a problem that $?TABSTOP is not visible in Rakudo programs, yep?
16:55 flussence more of a "I don't know what I'm doing" problem :)
16:55 flussence but yeah
16:55 tadzik do you have a roast commit bit?
16:56 flussence I think I do actually...
16:56 flussence yep
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16:59 tadzik can you commit the tests you wrote? I'll merge the branch then, we'll test it in the field
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16:59 flussence will do
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17:16 dalek roast: 7309150 | (Anthony Parsons)++ | S32-str/indent.t:
17:16 dalek roast: Add tests for Str.indent
17:16 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7309150536
17:17 flussence /o\
17:18 tadzik where did your karma go?
17:18 tadzik flussence++
17:19 flussence .oO( I wish rebuilding core.pir was a bit faster... )
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17:20 tadzik aye
17:21 tadzik flussence: rakudo in str-indent branch now runs the indent spectests. When I get back home, I'll see if everything passes and merge it if so
17:21 flussence yay
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17:25 tadzik and I'll make sure you're listed as one of the contributors in an upcoming release :)
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18:40 Moukeddar hello
18:41 tadzik hello
18:42 Moukeddar what's up ?
18:42 tadzik we're close to having Str.indent in Rakudo, thanks to flussence
18:43 Moukeddar is there an IDE for perl ?
18:44 sorear padre
18:44 sorear never used it personally, but the main dev is a regular here
18:45 tadzik seen szabgab
18:45 aloha szabgab was last seen in #perl6 20 days 15 hours ago joining the channel.
18:46 Moukeddar http://www.activestate.com/perl-dev-kit
18:46 Moukeddar ??
18:46 mberends yes, Padre is very good. http://padre.perlide.org/ and also a standard package in Debian and Ubuntu.
18:46 tadzik never heard of it
18:46 tadzik it's even in Gentoo
18:46 tadzik (padre)
18:47 tadzik even up-to-date
18:47 Moukeddar how about Komodo IDE ?
18:50 sorear why are you asking about IDEs we've never heard of?
18:50 mberends it's probably ok, but we are mostly too cheapskate here to pay for software ;)
18:50 tadzik :)
18:50 Moukeddar pay what ?
18:50 sorear you asked for an IDE, mberends gave you one
18:51 mberends http://www.activestate.com/komodo-ide : from $295
18:51 Moukeddar thank you guys :)
18:51 Moukeddar who said i was going to pay
18:51 Moukeddar trial is good
18:51 mberends :)
18:54 Moukeddar is there a starter tutorial for Perl6 ?
18:54 tadzik lotsa them
18:55 tadzik check out perl6.org
18:55 mberends Moukeddar: if you know a bit of Perl 5, then http://www.perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6
18:56 risou_ left #perl6
18:56 Moukeddar idk anything about perl5 or 6
18:57 Moukeddar so i'm a complete Noob
18:59 tadzik try the book
18:59 Moukeddar yes
18:59 Moukeddar i got it
19:00 Moukeddar love the preface :)
19:00 mberends Moukeddar: tutorials for complete Noobs have not been written yet. But here's an idea: you try to write one (as a complete Noob) and ask us for help from time to time. Chronicle your path to enlightenment on a blog site of your choice.
19:01 Moukeddar mberends, folks on other channel said it's not good to write while learning
19:02 mberends I disagree. That would be similar to not being allowed to talk or ask questions.
19:02 Moukeddar and i'm not a complete noob
19:02 Moukeddar i code in C# pretty good :)
19:02 Moukeddar i guess they're just too cocky
19:03 mikemol left #perl6
19:03 mberends cool! several Perl 6 devs are writing implementations in C#.
19:03 frettled uncool! uncool!
19:04 kjeldahl left #perl6
19:04 mikemol joined #perl6
19:04 Moukeddar mberends, i like the idea of writing while learning
19:04 Moukeddar it helps improve the learning experience right ?
19:05 frettled There's a good chance for that!
19:05 mberends yes, and also gives other people the opportunity to give you useful suggestions.
19:05 Moukeddar sweet
19:05 sorear Moukeddar: that other channel sounds awful
19:05 Moukeddar i'll finish my exams and get started
19:05 Moukeddar sorear, they're aweful
19:05 Moukeddar well some of them
19:06 sorear why do you go there?
19:06 Moukeddar it's C# channel
19:06 tadzik then consider staying on the Most Friendly Channel Ever!
19:06 tadzik .u copyleft
19:06 phenny tadzik: Sorry, no results for 'copyleft'.
19:06 tadzik uncool
19:06 mberends :(
19:06 tadzik Stallman is not amused
19:07 Moukeddar i miss this channel :)
19:08 mberends Moukeddar: There is life after exams. And in that afterlife, there is #perl6.
19:09 Moukeddar i thought after life was worms and underground
19:09 Moukeddar but #perl6 is a better choice :)
19:09 tadzik yeah, there it's just Pandas and Zebras :)
19:10 tadzik mberends: have you seen the new badges on modules.perl6.org? :)
19:11 Moukeddar Worms : Reloaded :)
19:13 uvtc joined #perl6
19:13 mberends tadzik: the cute panda! yes!
19:13 Moukeddar no
19:13 Moukeddar the evil pandas
19:13 uvtc tadzik: Love the pandas. :)
19:13 Moukeddar you never want them near you
19:14 GinoMan2440 joined #perl6
19:15 mberends tadzik: and what do you have to achieve to win a zebra?
19:15 Moukeddar achievement unlocked
19:16 tadzik mberends: conform to the latest specs. Seen the p6u email?
19:16 tadzik I should add it to the fame-and-profit
19:16 GinoMan left #perl6
19:16 tadzik Moukeddar: are they so evil?
19:16 tadzik squirrels are evil, that's fo sure
19:17 uvtc tadzik: I think mberends was suggesting that zebras are one level higher than pandas. :)
19:17 Moukeddar all animals are evil
19:17 Moukeddar except humans
19:17 Moukeddar they're kinda cute
19:17 mberends tadzik: :-) I don't have time to subscribe to p6* emails
19:17 nadim left #perl6
19:18 tadzik oh, that one is truly low-traffic. Seems that I should have blug about that too
19:18 noganex_ joined #perl6
19:18 mberends instead I leech off the #perl6 community to read the mails on my behalf.
19:19 tadzik mberends: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2011/04/msg1503.html
19:19 Moukeddar lol mberends
19:19 Moukeddar see mberends is  nice dude
19:19 tadzik from this funny-named guy "Sośnierz"
19:19 mberends tadzik++
19:22 noganex left #perl6
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19:24 lichtkind cheers
19:25 mberends hi lichtkind!
19:25 lichtkind mberends: hello humble guy :)
19:26 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
19:26 tadzik loliblug! http://ttjjss.wordpress.com/2011/04/18/news-from-the-modules-world/
19:27 mberends lol! lol!
19:28 tadzik All tests successful. Mergeparty!
19:28 tadzik or is someone opposing?
19:28 tadzik no one, thanks
19:29 lichtkind what tests did you merge?
19:30 tadzik tests were already pushed, I merged the str-indent branch
19:30 tadzik flussence++
19:30 pmurias joined #perl6
19:30 flussence :D
19:32 nadim joined #perl6
19:33 dalek rakudo: 44e42da | tadzik++ | src/core/Str.pm:
19:33 dalek rakudo: Imported Str::indent, flussence++
19:33 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/44e42da066
19:33 dalek rakudo: 27ab7de | tadzik++ | t/spectest.data:
19:33 dalek rakudo: Run spectests for indent
19:33 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/27ab7de075
19:33 dalek rakudo: 887bb5b | tadzik++ | docs/ChangeLog:
19:33 dalek rakudo: Noted indent in the Changelog
19:33 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/887bb5b695
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20:02 mberends yay! more spectests!
20:03 mikemol is now known as johngalt
20:03 johngalt is now known as shortcircuit
20:04 shortcircuit is now known as mikemol
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20:11 gente so do we still do haskell here
20:14 mberends we're short of haskell skillz to maintain Pugs
20:14 gente heh
20:14 gente are we open to a discussion
20:14 gente cause i had a doubt
20:15 araujo left #perl6
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20:18 PerlJam who is "we"?
20:23 TimToady we'll be glad to say all sorts of things about haskell that might or might not be true :)
20:24 TimToady you might want to talk to pmurias, who seems to be our current hacker of things haskellian
20:25 moritz http://blog.urth.org/2011/04/what-perl-6-and-5-have-done-right.html somebody might (or might not) want to feed the troll in the comment
20:25 bacek joined #perl6
20:27 gente well haskell has mutables
20:27 gente that doesnt make it purely fucntional does it?
20:28 TimToady well, depends on which glasses you're looking at haskell through
20:29 PerlJam things are getting "more and more silent around Perl 6"?
20:29 gente TimToady: well having variables doesnt make it purely fucntional
20:29 gente variables == mutable state; functional is all about not having mutable state.
20:30 TimToady what makes you think haskell has variables?  it has names associated with definitions, but that doesn't make them variables...
20:30 lichtkind yes since they are not variable :)
20:30 gente well one of the haskell guys was saying it does
20:30 lichtkind the name there readonly memory  location variables
20:31 TimToady unless you cheat, haskell hides all mutables inside of monads
20:31 gente so if haskell doesnt have variables
20:31 gente then it's not real or practical to use is it
20:31 sorear have you been banned from #haskell?
20:32 gente sorear: listen the topic used to sa haskell was allowed here, and no im not
20:32 moritz gente: I can highly recommend "Real World Haskell". You'll learn both about Haskell and how usable it is.
20:32 gente without variables how is haskell of any use though
20:32 TimToady sounds like you just want to quibble over the definition of "variable" mostly
20:32 sorear gente: every topic is allowed here, but we have a strict troll-hugging policy
20:32 PerlJam gente: Where is it written that variables a necessary for "real or practical use"?
20:32 * sorear hugs gente
20:33 PerlJam s/a/are/
20:33 gente PerlJam: state exists
20:34 TimToady but haskell represents state as the application of functions
20:34 gente rather deal with it and not go prancing around it if you ask me
20:34 sorear gente: what are you trying to accomplish by coming on #perl6 and complaining about Haskell?
20:34 TimToady well, nobody here is going to force you to program in haskell here...
20:35 sorear You're confusing me
20:35 gente TimToady: not that im being forced
20:35 TimToady we're being forced to listen to you rant about it though... :)
20:35 gente but i was wondering a language withouta mutable state is just ..
20:35 PerlJam gente: it *sounds* like you're used to dealing with things a certain way and expect haskell to do things that way too.   Haskell has its own view of the universe.  If you grok it, you'll be able to use haskell effectively.
20:36 PerlJam TimToady: we're not forced;  it's just because we're so polite.  :)
20:38 sorear gente: of all the places on the Internet where you could describe a language as impractical... why #perl6?
20:38 mj41 joined #perl6
20:39 moritz reddit would be a good place for that :-)
20:39 gente im not saying it's impractical
20:39 gente but why wouldn't a language have variables?
20:39 gente just to keep it purely functional?
20:40 justatheory left #perl6
20:40 sorear gente: you're in the wrong channel.  this isn't #history-of-programming-languages
20:40 gente sorear: what are you on about
20:40 gente this place used to allow haskell discussions
20:40 gente which is why i joined
20:41 gente if you scroll up you'll see i asked first before i even posted my doubt
20:41 gente so wtf is up with you now?
20:41 PerlJam gente: sure ... but usually the haskell discussion revolves around implementing something for Perl 6
20:41 gente im in both haske-in-depth and here
20:41 gente so stop giving me stupid attitude
20:41 PerlJam gente: or some feature Perl 6 steals from haskell
20:41 PerlJam or something
20:41 gente when im just trying to have a discussion
20:41 gente PerlJam: ok
20:42 sorear gente: saying a language is impractical in public = either you don't know English or you're acting like a troll
20:42 gente well im not saying it's impractical
20:43 icwiener left #perl6
20:43 sorear in English, "then it's not real or practical to use is it?" means "It's not real or practical to use."
20:43 cognominal gente, cursing is probaby not the best way to get intresting feedback. At least not here
20:43 sorear they're called rhetorical questions
20:43 sorear you need to learn to stop using them by accident
20:44 gente and practical use i meant as in
20:44 gente "Functional programming languages, especially purely functional ones, have largely been emphasized in academia rather than in commercial software development"
20:44 gente that
20:44 gente that happens for a reason
20:44 dorlamm joined #perl6
20:45 sorear gente: what part of "Avoid success at all costs" don't you understand?
20:45 gente so i was thinking solving problems using variables is usually easier i thought
20:45 PerlJam gente: it's an abstraction that people are used to if they've taken algebra
20:45 PerlJam gente: however, it's not the only useful abstraction
20:46 gente PerlJam: well sure but solving problems using variables is kinda easier isnt it
20:46 gente or this all depends?
20:46 PerlJam easier than what?
20:47 PerlJam and what problems?
20:47 PerlJam gente: one of the main lessons of perl is that "context is important"  :)
20:48 flussence I guess commercial software companies don't like Haskell because it's harder to outsource ;)
20:49 PerlJam gente: For instance, some problems lend themselves naturally to recursion.  But until you understand recursion, you might think that looping is easier.
20:49 gente PerlJam: fucntional = niche
20:50 gente PerlJam: recursion can be done with imperative languages too
20:51 gente it is just that recursion isn't always the best or most efficient way of solving a problem
20:51 gente and with parallelism thread stack size can be a limiting factor.
20:51 PerlJam *zing*
20:51 masak joined #perl6
20:51 masak hi, zebras.
20:51 flussence moo.
20:51 PerlJam masak: o/
20:52 gente PerlJam: no?
20:52 coldhead joined #perl6
20:52 PerlJam gente: you miss the point entirely.
20:52 gente ok what did you mean though?
20:54 PerlJam gente: one way of looking at the universe may not always be the best way for a given problem.  Until you understand the "essence" of the problem, you won't know how to look at it and won't have a good way to solve it.  You may have *a* way, but you might have to jump through hoops because of your limited understanding.
20:54 PerlJam gente: Haskell is really for those problems that lend themselves to haskellian solutions.
20:54 justatheory joined #perl6
20:54 PerlJam gente: the real problem is classifying which problems are in that set.
20:55 PerlJam anyway, I've got stuff to do.
20:55 * PerlJam &
20:55 dju__ left #perl6
20:56 masak gente: wow, what ever did you say to make PerlJam give you that explanation...?
20:56 * masak backlogs
20:57 masak oh. :/
20:58 gente PerlJam: I am aware of recursion; I am aware of looping; I use both techniques I do not limit myself to one.
20:58 gente ok
21:01 Holy_Cow left #perl6
21:01 gente and a collection of variables can be used to represent the state of some system
21:01 cognominal left #perl6
21:01 gente sorry wrong window
21:02 * masak .oO( a variable can be used to represent the right window... )
21:02 cognominal joined #perl6
21:03 justatheory left #perl6
21:03 flussence .oO( maybe a constant would be more appropriate here :)
21:04 gente it wasn't for you guys! posted it in the wrong window
21:04 gente :P
21:04 masak gente: sorry, our attention span is variable :P
21:04 gente heh
21:04 masak you have to constantly amuse us. :)
21:05 masak or we'll automatically garbage-collect.
21:06 frettled and that's not -Ofun
21:08 masak frettled! \o/
21:09 masak frettled: how are you this fine evening?
21:10 birdwindupbird left #perl6
21:11 frettled masak: relaxed!  And you?
21:11 masak frettled: tired. but happy. :)
21:11 frettled masak: did you get a good run?
21:13 masak wasn't running tonight. just having a beer with our company :)
21:13 jnthn Our company. It buys us beer. \o/
21:13 masak jnthn: I think I feel a cold coming on. I should do the sensible thing and sleep it off.
21:14 masak must... stop... coding...
21:14 jnthn masak: ugh
21:14 jnthn yes, that's a good plan
21:14 jnthn getting a cold would suck.
21:14 diakopter sleep off the colding
21:14 mberends give the cold to the beer, problem solved!
21:14 diakopter lol.
21:15 frettled masak: a cognac is one of the best things to drink that does not cure a cold :)
21:15 masak mberends: I think you just violated some law of thermodynamics or other. but nice idea :P
21:15 jnthn masak: Vindaloo? ;)
21:15 masak jnthn: bit late in the evening for that :P
21:15 masak thank you all for your kind suggestions. :)
21:16 cognominal is there any project to implement Perl 6 as a modified v8 + nodejs?
21:17 masak there was at least one project targetting v8...
21:17 masak was it diakopter's?
21:17 cognominal coffeescript is nice, perl6 would be greater
21:17 masak coffeescript is a much thinner layer on javascript, though.
21:17 cognominal yes
21:18 pmurias masak: mildew was also targetting v8
21:18 cognominal it is a very simple translation. It just leave the crap out and add nice things like interpolation in strings
21:19 masak pmurias: oh, right.
21:19 pmurias perlito can target js i think too
21:20 masak is there a way to have a slurpy parameter that doesn't flatten?
21:20 justatheory joined #perl6
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21:22 masak or, um. let me rephrase.
21:22 moritz something like |$thing or \|$thing parameter?
21:22 masak is there any way to store a Range in a datastructure, and then pass it to a sub, without it flattening on the way?
21:23 GinoMan2440 left #perl6
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21:24 moritz sure, use a scalar parameter
21:24 * moritz -> sleep
21:24 pmurias masak: diakopter was targeting v8 at some point too
21:24 masak but... I'm passing in a list of things, one of which might be a Range... :/
21:26 jnthn masak: You could store it in an array? :)
21:26 jnthn Or \ it maybe :)
21:26 masak I haven't gotten anything to work yet.
21:27 masak rakudo: my @a = 1..4; say @a.perl
21:27 p6eval rakudo 887bb5: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3, 4]␤»
21:27 masak rakudo: say (\(1..4)).perl
21:27 p6eval rakudo 887bb5: OUTPUT«\(1, 2, 3, 4)␤»
21:27 masak rakudo: $_ = class { method postcircumfix:<[ ]>($x) { say $x.perl } }; .[1..4]
21:27 diakopter niecza: say (\(1..4)).perl
21:28 p6eval rakudo 887bb5: OUTPUT«1..4␤»
21:28 p6eval niecza v4-66-g11b04b4: OUTPUT«\(|[1, 2, 3, 4], |{})␤»
21:28 masak that works.
21:28 masak but then when I return it, it flattens :/
21:28 masak rakudo: $_ = class { method postcircumfix:<[ ]>($x) { $x } }; say .[1..4].perl
21:28 p6eval rakudo 887bb5: OUTPUT«1..4␤»
21:28 masak or not. whee! :)
21:28 diakopter niecza: say eval (\(1..4)).perl
21:28 p6eval niecza v4-66-g11b04b4: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
21:29 pmurias sorear: did the haskell people actually attempt to do anything to actively avoid success in the past?
21:29 pmurias sorear: or was the slogan just a joke?
21:31 masak pmurias: I always read it as tongue-in-cheek, in that "academic" languages tend to burn out if they go for fame rather than other qualities.
21:34 masak I ended up with several multis for the same method, each of them with one more argument. it works, but I feel dirty now.
21:35 mberends That is so, so, sordid. Disgusting!
21:36 * mberends passes masak++ a little bar of soap to wash his mouth out.
21:37 * masak mumbles "just like Java..." through the soapy bubbles
21:37 jnthn .oO( Java often tastes like SOAP... )
21:37 * frettled passes masak a stiff drink to aid the recovery process.
21:37 frettled jnthn: *ding*
21:39 stkowski joined #perl6
21:48 masak g'ah, now I'm having trouble unpacking the thing :P
21:48 masak anyway, that's a problem for another day.
21:48 masak 'night, pandas.
21:49 masak left #perl6
21:49 frettled masak: dream of bamboo shoots
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22:00 diakopter TimToady: boom
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22:55 TimToady diakopter: was in the car, so missed it
22:56 TimToady I hope it's not a foreshock, 'cuz my house has little shear strength at the moment
23:01 diakopter heard/felt a hard knock, then felt a bigger jolt and then looked up to see the hanging lights swaying
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23:21 starcoder TimToady: where do you live? o.O
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