Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-04-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:02 dalek nqp/ctmo: 4e2bed3 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
00:02 dalek nqp/ctmo: Remove magical loading of the NQP meta-objects library, and just do it with a use statement in the setting.
00:02 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4e2bed30f4
00:02 dalek nqp/ctmo: 8147a0f | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (6 files):
00:02 dalek nqp/ctmo: Update bootstrap, just to be sure the previous works out there too.
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00:02 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8147a0fad6
00:03 jnthn That'll do for one day's hacking. :-) 'night o/
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02:43 lestrrat is it possible to do the equivalent of P5 my %HoH = ( key1 => \%args ); while ( my($k, $v) = each %HoH ) { MyClass->new(%$v) #<-- this  }
02:44 lestrrat currently my constructor thinks it's getting one hash argument, so I'd like to flatten it or do the equivalent.
02:46 lestrrat I guess it's  new(|$v) ?
02:46 lestrrat hmm, guess not...
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03:12 dwhipp lestrrat: did you try: for %hoh.kv -> $key, %h { MyClass.new(|%h) }
03:15 lestrrat for ... -> $k, %v gave me a compile error :/   something about "Nominal type check failed for parameter '%v'; expected Associative but got Seq instead"
03:18 dwhipp rakudo: my %hoh = ( 'a' => { 'b' => 1 } ); class X { has $.b }; for %hoh.kv -> $k, %h { my $x = X.new(|%h); say $x.perl }
03:18 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«X.new(b => 1)␤»
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03:37 tylercurtis rakudo: my %hoh = a => {c => 1, d => 2}, b => {c => 3, d => 4}; class X { has $.a; has $.b }; for %hoh.kv -> $k, %h { my $x = X.new(|%h); say $x.perl }
03:37 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«X.new(a => Any, b => Any)␤X.new(a => Any, b => Any)␤»
03:38 tylercurtis rakudo: my %hoh = a => {c => 1, d => 2}, b => {c => 3, d => 4}; class X { has $.a; has $.b }; for %hoh.kv -> $k, $h { my $x = X.new(|$h); say $x.perl }
03:38 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«X.new(a => Any, b => Any)␤X.new(a => Any, b => Any)␤»
03:38 tylercurtis rakudo: my %hoh = a => {c => 1, d => 2}, b => {c => 3, d => 4}; class X { has $.c; has $.d }; for %hoh.kv -> $k, %h { my $x = X.new(|%h); say $x.perl }
03:38 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«X.new(c => 1, d => 2)␤X.new(c => 3, d => 4)␤»
03:44 tylercurtis lestrrat: Can you give more details about the code you're trying that isn't doing what you want?
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04:41 snarkyboojum I get a fail in t/spec/S19-command-line/dash-e.t when running the spec test suite on OS X. Unicode related. I have ICU installed and parrot build uses it. Yay unicode related test failures.
04:42 snarkyboojum on another note, it's the only test which fails out of the whole spectest! o/
04:42 snarkyboojum (for me)
04:44 snarkyboojum sad that the option explanation when using --help was taken out - was nice to get an explanation of what options meant and what params they took
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05:31 lestrrat tylercurtis: hmm, that works?
05:31 lestrrat odd...
05:31 lestrrat I'll try it after $day_job
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06:46 masak good Friday, #perl6.
06:47 isBEKaml goodfriday,masak. :)
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06:54 sorear hi masak!
06:55 masak hello there.
06:59 masak sorear: question: what's your reaction on http://blogs.perl.org/users/martin_berends/2011/04/niecza-almost-took-part-in-the-perl-6-coding-contest.html ?
07:00 * PerlJam thinks mberends has a different definition of "almost" than him  ;)
07:00 masak I mean, do you think it would help niecza to (let's say) help improve it with those scripts in mind?
07:01 sorear yes
07:01 sorear I haven't read the post yet
07:04 masak I'd like to create an editable web resource somewhere to keep track of (1) the errors or faulty results from the scripts, (2) why they occur, (3) if and how they can be worked around, and (4) what features niecza would need for them to run.
07:05 sorear mberends doesn't seem to be on planetsix
07:05 sorear BOO
07:06 masak that can probably be ameliorated.
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07:08 sorear mberends++ for confirming my suspicion that the spectests are a reasonable cross-section of "real world" Perl 6
07:08 sorear if more than one sample says "Niecza can run 10% of real code", I feel more confidence
07:09 sorear thanks masak
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07:11 TiMBuS will the new 6model will change how .^methods work? im assuming so
07:12 TiMBuS as in, theres a bug in ^add_composable that makes the object lose its type. is it worth investigating at this point?
07:15 masak ah, here we go: https://github.com/perl6/misc/wiki/Niecza-and-p6cc2010
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07:17 masak sorear: the spectests both are and aren't a "reasonable cross-section". the one thing that application code does that spectests don't: application code tends to "sweep" over the configuration space of possible programs, and thus discover more bugs in the implementation.
07:30 moritz s/more/other/
07:30 masak right.
07:38 masak TiMBuS: I'd say it's worth investigating, or at least noting down in a rakudobug.
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07:51 TiMBuS masak, youve already done it :>
07:53 TiMBuS i was investigating why typed arrays infinitely looped out on access
07:57 masak oh, ok.
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09:11 pmurias phenny: tell sorear the p6 coding contest entries represent the subset of "real world" Perl 6 programms that actually run on rakudo
09:11 phenny pmurias: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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09:15 masak I think that was already clear... :)
09:17 pmurias and as they were supposed to be idiomatic they are likely to be stretching the limit of what rakudo can do
09:17 masak some do, some don't.
09:18 masak also, depends what you mean by "limits" :)
09:18 pmurias are the submission somewhere in a repo?
09:18 pmurias masak: meaning that they use all the new cool features like junctions etc.
09:18 pmurias * submissions
09:18 masak junctions are notably absent from most submissions. except in some if statements.
09:19 masak pmurias: they are in a repo, but one I've kept private since I used it during the whole contest.
09:19 masak I could probably pull out the submissions themselves and publish them in a public repo.
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09:20 pmurias as http://strangelyconsistent.org/p6cc2010/ seems a very inconvinient iterface to download them all
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09:23 masak yes; having it on github would be far superior.
09:24 masak I'm a bit tied up right now with the #cqrs-perl6 hackathon.
09:24 masak but later I will throw it up as a github repo.
09:44 tadzik friday, friday... hello zebras!
09:44 * tadzik has his both hands free :)
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09:53 moritz \o/
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10:11 masak tadzik: congrats!
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10:35 tadzik :)
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10:37 tadzik also, I now have internets at the garden, thanks to my mother's way of thinking
10:37 tadzik where I look for technology, she expands the existing solution. Where I worry about wifi, she thinks of dropping a 10-or-20 meter ethernet cable out of the window
10:38 tadzik the most awesome workplace I ever had <3
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11:13 pmurias tadzik: so how do you close the window now?
11:15 moritz if the weather in Poland is as good as in Germany right now, I don't see why anyone would want to close a window :-)
11:15 * jnthn and masak just had lunch outside. It's even nice weather this far north. :)
11:16 tadzik pmurias: as always, shift+super+c
11:17 tadzik http://i.imgur.com/nD0Hn.jpg :)
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11:21 jnthn tadzik: nice :)
11:22 tadzik so out-chilling :)
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11:46 tadzik who misses glob()? Hands up!
11:47 tadzik \o
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11:47 pmurias where is max {...} defined?
11:48 tadzik is now known as wisdom_of_ack
11:48 wisdom_of_ack core/Any-List.pm
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11:48 pmurias in the spec
11:48 tadzik oh
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11:50 pmurias i'm trying to get the pcc entries to work on niecza
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11:50 tadzik S03-operators.pod I believe
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11:57 pmurias it's defined as an infix operator there
11:57 pmurias so it's seems to be a rakudo extension
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12:34 arnsholt pmurias: Could be something about it in S32 as well
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12:57 colomon masak, jnthn: how goes the hacking?
12:57 masak colomon: live at #cqrs-perl6 :)
12:57 colomon ooooo
12:57 masak :)
12:58 colomon with logs, even!
12:58 masak moritz++
13:01 * colomon was hoping DDD was the DataDisplayDebugger, which he was just looking at this morning...
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13:32 pmurias masak: max {...} seems very suspect as being an unspecced thing
13:37 tadzik rakudo: sub a { ??? }; a(); say 'alive'
13:37 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«Stub code executed  in 'a' at line 22:/tmp/lfDUrX2WQP␤alive␤»
13:38 tadzik bug?
13:38 tadzik perl6: sub a { ??? }; a(); say 'alive'
13:38 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«Stub code executed  in 'a' at line 22:/tmp/7u9ism9XpP␤alive␤»
13:38 p6eval ..niecza v4-67-g1f44650: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: >>>Stub code executed␤  at /tmp/AVgl5o0zGz line 1 (MAIN a @ 3)␤  at /tmp/AVgl5o0zGz line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1311 (CORE C552_ANON @ 2)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1312 (CORE
13:38 p6eval ..module-CORE @ 39)␤ …
13:38 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** Cannot cast from VUndef to GHC.IO.Handle.Types.Handle (VHandle)␤    at /tmp/X6I2Ea4A6w line 1, column 9-13␤»
13:41 tadzik oh, just a REPLfail
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14:44 pmurias sorear: hi
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14:53 bbkr_ any idea why panda returns
14:53 bbkr_ Unknown option: e
14:53 bbkr_ while installing MIME::Base64 ?
14:54 masak no, but that sounds odd.
14:55 colomon Seems like that was an error I used to get (with neutro) when I tried to test things with an older version of prove?
14:56 bbkr_ I have "prove v2.64, using Test::Harness v2.64 and Perl v5.10.0"
14:59 masak yeah, it's probably in that area, with prove and Test::Harness.
14:59 colomon bbkr_: the one I have now (which works) says TAP::Harness v3.17 and Perl v5.12.3
15:02 bbkr_ confirmed. it is prove that does not accept -e switch (called from lib / Panda / Tester.pm line 14)
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15:11 tadzik oh, not this again
15:11 tadzik Mac OSX, right?
15:12 tadzik oh ok, it's already figured out
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15:12 tadzik yeah, I'm afraid you need to update your prove
15:15 bbkr_ this occured on Debian 5.0. when tested on Ubunto 10.04 LTS everything works fine, so indeed this is prove lacking --exec param.
15:15 bbkr_ and just for curiosity i'll test panda on MacOS X 10.6.7 at home :)
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15:34 tadzik :)
15:34 tadzik I think colomon's case was on OSX, and that was the first one
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16:57 ray24 Do you have to go to school to learn perl?
16:57 moritz sure
16:57 moritz there's a town called Perl in the north of Germany
16:57 moritz and that's where you can learn perl in school
16:58 moritz http://www.perl-mosel.de/
17:00 moritz sadly about half of the students are distracted by the beautiful landscape
17:00 moritz and leave Perl without substatial Perl knoweledge
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17:06 ray24 I want mastery I don't care about self gratifications
17:07 ray24 I need to maximize my potential
17:07 ray24 perl will be a mastery
17:07 moritz then I suggest quitting IRC, and get on with it
17:07 ray24 can do without it?
17:07 moritz you have much more time for programming without IRC
17:07 moritz and mastery needs time
17:16 ray24 True, very true.
17:16 ray24 But also, it's going to be lonely without IRC :(
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17:16 ray24 And so you are saying all these people here don't have mastery
17:16 moritz not at all
17:16 moritz many just reached mastery before joining IRC
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17:24 rindolf Hi all.
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17:26 ray24 Can we be with mastery in one language alone?
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17:26 ray24 can I learn perl without c++
17:27 rindolf ray24: yes, you can.
17:27 ray24 But I want more mastery than one
17:27 rindolf ray24: only three people in the world really know C++.
17:27 rindolf ray24: that's a good idea.
17:28 tadzik hi rindolf
17:28 rindolf tadzik: what's up?
17:29 tadzik rindolf: not bad. My hand recently got freed from a cast
17:29 rindolf tadzik: ah, that's good.
17:30 sorear hello pmurias
17:30 phenny sorear: 09:11Z <pmurias> tell sorear the p6 coding contest entries represent the subset of "real world" Perl 6 programms that actually run on rakudo
17:30 sorear good * #perl6
17:33 pmurias sorear: hi
17:33 pmurias sorear: are variables bound by letn mutable?
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17:34 ray24 Any programmers here a regular chess player?
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17:34 sorear phenny: tell pmurias Yes
17:34 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when pmurias is around.
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17:48 ray24 What is the rate of success for programmers?
17:48 ray24 How often do individual programmers build a successful program that impact the market?
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17:50 rindolf ray24: how can you measure?
17:50 rindolf ray24: you seem to be talking to yourself.
17:50 rindolf ray24: define "impact".
17:50 ray24 Don't we all talk to ourselves?
17:50 ray24 But I tend to expand , i need insight
17:51 masak ray24: it's an interesting question, for sure.
17:51 ray24 facebook impact
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17:51 ray24 I mean, if there are so many productive programmers .. how come there aren't more innovations of social media
17:51 masak ray24: but the answer isn't quantifiable.
17:51 ray24 why is there only one
17:52 ray24 So...
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17:52 huf if there are so many productive $x, how come there arent more innovations in $field_of{$x}?
17:52 huf where are my flying cars? :D
17:52 masak innovation is more difficult than people think.
17:52 masak the principle behind it is simple. but it takes a lot of hard work.
17:52 masak most people aren't up to it.
17:52 ray24 facebook doesn't seem like that difficult of an idea to come up with
17:53 huf ray24: an *unsuccessful* fb-clone doesnt seem like a difficult idea to come up with
17:53 masak ray24: there are probably hundreds of applications like Facebook out there at this point.
17:53 huf a successful one however... there's only one
17:53 masak ray24: and Facebook might not even have been the first one.
17:53 masak ray24: they just got a lot of stuff right.
17:54 jnthn git pull
17:54 jnthn oops
17:55 huf pull the other one
17:55 ray24 How many hours should I put in a day for perl?
17:56 ray24 I have to build something like facebook
17:56 masak ray24: you shouldn't be asking that question.
17:56 masak ray24: you should try it out for yourself.
17:57 masak we're not better judges of your time investment than you are.
17:57 ray24 You bring good points
17:57 ray24 I dont know why I tend to need reassurances
17:58 tadzik huf: they're called planes
17:58 huf tadzik: i've seen those and there's no glove compartment
17:58 huf ergo not a car.
18:00 tadzik hrm
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18:25 Exodist What is the terminology used when you return something, but what that something is is never actually calculated unless it is used?
18:25 moritz Exodist: lazy evaluation
18:26 Exodist thank you
18:41 masak rakudo: sub foo { gather say "OH HAI" }; my $a = foo; say "A"; say $a
18:41 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«A␤OH HAI␤␤»
18:43 moritz rakudo: sub foo { gather say "OH HAI" }; my $a := foo; say "A"; say $a
18:43 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«A␤OH HAI␤␤»
18:44 moritz rakudo: sub foo { gather {take; say "OH HAI"} }; my $a := foo; say "A"; say $a
18:44 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«A␤OH HAI␤␤»
18:45 ray24 lol @ moritz
18:46 ray24 "lazy evaluation"
18:46 moritz ray24: what's so funny about it?
18:46 masak ray24: no, that's what it's called.
18:46 ray24 oh..
18:47 ray24 That's funny -- the fact that I thought it meant to be funny but actually it's really what it's called
18:48 * jnthn doesn't mention phasers and lols
18:48 masak the only thing that could have lead to that situation is lazy research :P
18:51 ray24 Anyone here find that google is overdoing flash banner?
18:52 ray24 Google.com They have a very lagging flash
18:52 ray24 Why are they doing that
18:54 TimToady it's free advertising for them when you come here and ask us about it :)
18:54 sorear does google need advertising?  they're a monopoly
18:55 TimToady s/advertising/branding/
18:55 donri ray24: not flash
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19:04 masak ...which is part of the reason they're doing it, I guess.
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19:30 ray24 btw, is this an offtopic channel?
19:30 moritz normally not
19:35 ray24 You're pretty quick with the responses
19:35 ray24 Are you working on a project?
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19:35 moritz on multiple
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20:31 tylercurtis From a formal languages point-of-view, what class of languages is Perl 6 in (optionally ignoring "supercede slang MAIN")?
20:32 perigrin is there a reference for "formal languages point-of-view" ?
20:32 * perigrin is curious
20:35 sorear I think tylercurtis means https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy
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20:36 sorear tylercurtis: context-sensitive
20:36 sorear Wikipedia says that if a language can be recognized in O(N) space, it is no worse than context-sensitive
20:36 sorear and STD is O(N) space
20:37 sorear no context-free language can implement declaration before use (making my $x; $y invalid)
20:37 sorear except for Haskell, most serious programming languages are context-sensitive
20:38 sorear many though are described as "context free + a few semantic constraints"
20:39 sorear I would love to see a non-p6regex parser for full Perl 6
20:39 sorear partly because I'm not fully convinced p6regex can be made "fast enough"
20:40 perigrin give Moore enough tiem.
20:44 tylercurtis sorear: Haskell isn't context-sensitive?
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21:04 sorear tylercurtis: I remain to be convinced that the Haskell 98 grammar is even recursive.
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21:05 Moukeddar hello pandas
21:05 Moukeddar good and evil
21:06 sorear hello Moukeddar
21:06 moritz evil pandas? what did I miss?
21:07 Moukeddar how you doing today ?
21:07 Moukeddar yeah evil panda can kill you
21:08 masak that's why it's important to upgrade your modules.
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21:11 tylercurtis sorear: oh, I see. I misinterpreted your statement that it's not context-sensitive. Common Lisp shares the trait of not being context-sensitive, I believe.
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21:12 moritz perl can run code at compile time, so not even a Turing complete parser is enough
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21:27 masak 'night, pandas
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21:49 colomon Lisp can run code at compile time as well, yes?
21:50 Moukeddar what's the benefits of that ?
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21:52 pmurias Moukeddar: you can extend the grammar
21:52 phenny pmurias: 17:34Z <sorear> tell pmurias Yes
21:53 Moukeddar how ?
21:54 pmurias i have to look that up
21:54 pmurias macro circumfix:«<!-- -->» ($text) is parsed / .*? / { "" } # example from the spec
21:57 pmurias Moukeddar: and if most of the metaprogramming is done at compile time we won't have to pay a performance price at runtime
21:58 Moukeddar ahh
21:58 Moukeddar sounds pretty
21:58 tylercurtis Moukeddar: you can also do more simple things like defined new operators.
21:58 tylercurtis rakudo: sub postfix:<k>($n) { $n * 1024 }; say 10k;
21:58 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«10240␤»
21:59 Moukeddar new operators ?
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21:59 Moukeddar not just override them ?
21:59 pmurias yes
21:59 Moukeddar wow
21:59 pmurias or it's possible to have marcos which use the standard subroutine syntax and generate code
22:00 Moukeddar you mean generating other code blocks at compile time ?
22:00 Moukeddar other than the original
22:03 pmurias macro foo { 'say 1+' ~ '1; # ' }; foo();
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22:04 pmurias Moukeddar: so can generate code at compile time an insert it using a macro
22:04 Moukeddar wow
22:04 Moukeddar amazing stuff
22:05 pmurias i'm not sure it's implemented yet
22:06 sorear there's a patch for ~Mar10 rakudo which implements basic string macros
22:06 pmurias sorear: how hard would it be to have them in niecza?
22:06 sorear it's built on too many hacks though
22:07 sorear pmurias: once somebody figures out how to implement BEGIN in niecza, macros will be easy
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22:08 pmurias BEGIN seems like a lot of refactoring
22:09 pmurias we would have to switch to building up the program piece by piece and the serialising it
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22:10 pmurias sorear: as code in BEGIN can use all the subs which were defined on top
22:11 ruben1194navarro joined #perl6
22:11 pmurias sorear: didn't we have that discussion before? ;)
22:13 pmurias if i remember correctly the problem is how do we serialise foreign pointers and open filehandles/sockets
22:14 pmurias sorear: but we could just raise an error on those
22:14 pmurias as being able to precompile things is vastly more important then C pointers surviving the BEGIN phase
22:15 Moukeddar oooh
22:15 Moukeddar i need many many years to grasp all that
22:16 pmurias Moukeddar: you know perl5?
22:16 Moukeddar no
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22:17 Moukeddar i mean some advanced topics in programmation in general
22:17 Moukeddar but hey
22:17 Moukeddar still young :p
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22:23 Tene pmurias: macros are completely feasible in rakudo; I've done some pretty promising little experiments.  I just haven't had the time and resources to work on it.
22:30 sorear pmurias: We probably did.  It's been a major TODO since almost the beginning.
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